That was very interesting Sam, and clearly shows that despite the wonderful detail achieved in today's models, without powerful and reliable motors, then it all a waste of money...Bob
As somebody who's been inspired to potentially start my own model railway collection some day, your channel definitely is useful for things like what models to avoid and maintaining the ones I do get, given they require a lot more maintenance than I would have initially thought. Excellent work!
5:57 smoke from the cab windows, you say you sure it broke down? driver and fireman might just be on a overly long smoke break, it'd explain the smell ;)
As of your question of if there was any smoke when the motor failed, there wasn't but there was sparks! (Locos was Tri-ang Jinty from garage sale before being oiled)
I thought I was going blind because I couldn't see any smoke. But then I realised my brightness was low so I turned it up. Very interesting and handy video Sam thanks
One of my Bachmann 2-8-0s was running and it stopped on a curve and I saw smoke coming from underneath the drivers and turned it off right away luckily I was able to replace the motor and get it working again but then a week later the side rods got messed up while it was running and I’m not sure how to fix it so I was thinking about sending it over to see if you could fix it. Great video by the way. Thanks, Rails Of The East Coast
SAM - Great experiment ! interesting results. You should do a video on how to add a mini fan and heat dissipation fins ! Keep up the great videos, you do more for us than just review the new products !
Great video Sam 👍 I like the investigation into why it happened And of course the fact you’re not frightened to have ago Or try things out Keep it up👍😊
The closest I had was decoder burnout due to poor wiring and soldering from Hornby. Was surprised that your experience has seen bachmann with more motor issues. Very interesting to watch and most enjoyable. Most of all hobby safe Sam. Clint
Excellent video Sam,my Hornby Q1 caught fire because the link rod below the smokebox detached itself from the motion and caused a short circuit.This was spectacular as there were flames and smoke in seconds which melted the locomotive body on that side. I removed the locomotive and put the fire out,luckily the mechanism and sound chip were ok.This was a brand new locomotive so this should not have happened, I fitted a new body to the locomotive and did not refit the link rod as the earlier models did not have it.
Sam you are so helpful. My dad has died now but my earliest memory is sitting up in the attic with my dad as he cleaned and ran his huge 00 gauge. My mother making and painting buildings. I love all sorts of railways real and model. Love your videos and have subscribed.....Jayne😊🚂🚂🚂🚂🚂🚂🚂🚂
Yeah even my Bachmann FT once smoked then 3 years later the gears cracked. I decided to junk it, I kept the chassis for a future metal casting project.
Sam great video as usual I have only one problems with your videos they are to short I wish they were longer a lot longer . They are so entertaining and I learn a lot about my favorite hobby it is nice to see others so interested in this hobby. Keep up the great videos.
My Bachman Thomas has a similar open frame motor, and when I went to service it, it had this green gunk in it! Even stranger, the loco had been running fine with it there for who’s knew how long, and after I removed most of the goo, it still ran perfectly!
Yeah they do have a similar motor - that was probably some lubricant - it should run better now that's not inside the motor ;) Thanks for watching - Sam :)
Sam. Great video. Don’t know how I missed it before. Anyway, very interesting. Can’t believe half an amp could do that. Keep up these great videos. Even if a few/most don’t cause sparks.
Oddly enough, the exact same thing happened to my 14xx earlier on this afternoon, probably for the same reason. Not totally burnt out though, it still runs but intermittently. I've sent off for a replacement motor and I will check out the old one to see if it's repairable. Nice video. 🙂👍
I bought the Airfix version of the 14xx recently, exclusively for a replica "Titfield Thunderbolt" train, and because it didn't cost too much - The motor seems alright, though the mechanism squeals quite badly in reverse. The motor failure on your more modern one is, er, definitely something spectacular.
@@SamsTrains I've had the loco as far apart as I could get it, seems a lot of the Airfix stuff have totally sealed drive units, though it does run well enough forward for what was roughly £20. Could potentially be something to do with the brushes, not completely sure.
I'm not there yet. however i did " visit" a loco hobby shop. i learn a lot watching your video. your very easy to listen to. i connect to your style of explanation.. it works for me anyway.... 👍
Hi Sam. Good video as always. I've had a lot of problems over the years with hornby motors hence now all my locomotives are bachmann. I do however have a good tip. When oiling the motors I use a sewing needle to dip in the oil when lubricating the end bearing. That way its almost impossible to over lubricate and no risk to the commutator. My oldest locomotives are sixteen years old and still on original motors including the brushes. Keep up the good work. Chris.
1:06 I spy a classic which was the one that got me to buy MY Triang 3F and subscribe to your channel ;) Really glad to see that the fail didn't originate from one of those, I know they get a bit of a rep for 'looking' dangerous with the Back-to-the-future arcing on the wheels when running sometimes. Great video, Sam!
I have five locomotives that had motor burnouts. Two happened during normal operation, one happened when the plastic drive shafts jammed, and two were from just trying to get the engine to move again (like you did, but these locos haven't burned out previously). All of them were used models except for one Bachmann diesel I got new back in 2011 Most of my motor burnouts happened with "pancake" motors from various manufacturers and various ages.
Obviously, Motors run on their contained smoke. As the % of Load (drag) RPM decreases, (from the No Load value), the brushes and communitator winding start to get hot .Add enough drag and you will find the point where all of the motor smoke is released ! Once it's out, it's Bye, Bye motor ! GREAT informative Video, SAM !
This is what makes the joys of getting used model trains of EBay is all about. You get to play the “see what engine works and what engine starts belching smoke” game! I’ve played that game about 5 times now… sadly one of those times being with a hornby jinty. Tried to fix it to no avail.
I run german steamers on my N scale layout and i always buy them second hand so the most of them are from the 80s and al of them have this motors..... 1:57 now im scared....
Hi Sam, For the price we all pay for Hornby or other locos they should never burn out ,should run perfect for years and years, these problems should have been ironed out years ago by Hornby etc , Cheers Sam
I've never found any better Bachmann ones - they seem to be proprietary (not accidental!) I'm doing a video on the Hornby ones soon! :D Thanks for watching - Sam :)
Weirdly enough I actually my Triang class 37 had the same issue with what look liked blimmin thermite. I had sent you an email about it but this answers my question very nicely!
Hi Sam One of the reason can be your pulse power supply. Those motors were not designed for the power what you supply can deliver ( PWM or just a thyristor chopped 50 Hz). Most of the pulse power packs always deliver in pulse with modulation (PWM) the maximum power to the motor. This method overheats the commutator and the coils ( the commutator has to interrupt and turn on always the maximum voltage from the power supply. ). This method is even more dangerous for coreless motors because of lower heat dissipation capacity.) In old fashion filtered DC power packs the maximum voltage is present only at maximum power ( when you run your trains at maximum speed - how often is this the case? ).. One of the possible solutions is to reduce the voltage what goes into your power packs. ( in DCC for eg to 10-12 V). In your GM power pack it is more complex issue. Just an example. The commutator on a 6000 RPM 3 pole motor interrupts the power 200 times per second (200 Hz) only on highest speed. Every interruption creates a spark and heat. When you use a pulse power supply from GM it adds another 50 or 100 interruption independently from the motor speed, on top of that always with the highest possible voltage ( power). This overheats the commutator and the coils, and finally kills those simple motors.
It’s amazing that is all it took to cook that motor, a short stall. Will that kill bigger ones that are not open frame? Maybe even brushless types of motor?
Yours must be the only model railway channel that needs Smelly Telly to fully appreciate it. Loved it when you said "it's tatered" (not sure how you spell that). Not heard anyone say that since was a kid!
AHHH it seems my problem with my Hornby B12 is solved. This same motor was factory fitted to my B12 when I purchased it well over 10 years ago. It ran well for nearly a year then due to life getting in the way it was packed away in the original box in a plastic storage tub with the rest of my loco's. A while back I decided to build a layout for my Grandson and, lo and behold when the B12 was placed on the track and power applied it would not run and instead it sat there and emitted an acrid smell and smoke. So not being that confident to strip the loco and motor down and, only this week after watching and getting inspired by your videos I pulled the loco down and dismantled the motor. I thoroughly cleaned everything and what did I find the brushes gone as with your motor but not as bad. In fact I could find no evidence that there ever were any brushes. The only contact with the commutator were the brass fingers that would have held the brushes. All I can deduce from this is that the materials used to make the brushes was so sub standard as to be absolutely useless for the purpose or a very poor quality control issue allowed this model to slip through. I had previously purchased a new motor ( Poweline P1232A ( mk3) from E Bay which was not cheap and will now fit that. I did manage to get the original motor to run again but without the brushes it is totally useless as a spare. What I can't figure out is why did Hornby put these pathetic substandard motors into the B12 and not something more robust such as an XO3 or similar??? At least I can buy XO3's in bulk quite cheaply. So unless I can find a mount to take an XO3 or similar I will be stuck with paying $18.95 or 9.47 English pounds each so quite an expensive exercise. This will now ensure this loco does not get much running time as it will end up being to expensive to maintain. I will contact Hornby to see what they can do but am not hopeful of any sort of positive outcome other than a note saying they received my E Mail.
When motors over heat, the insulation on the wires that make up the windings in the motor softens or melts an electrical short usually develops, sometimes with an exciting show.
The wire 'windings' looked fine in the video. The commutator was the problem. I always think to run them in a bit at first. It would be an interesting experiment to monitor the current when adding one carage at a time.
Your videos are brilliant and you should see and smell what happens to a full size diesel- electric loco after a traction motor or the resistor failer it goes Bang in a Big way ! Lol I was in a class 73 electro- diesels engine room when we had this happen once , keep up the good work .
This was only recently but I was running in a spare Hornby Thomas chassis, it made it round the curve for the 10th time and as soon as it hit the points it just snap crackle popped and spat smoke everywhere in a comedic fashion! Doesn't seem to run but tries to, I think a fault was one of the brushes was bent wrong
Excellent video Sam. It does seem, in general....that the smaller the engine....the smaller the motor....but you would think they'd be a little bit more powerful and durable than that. Interesting failure....and yep, there's an old saying...it's not the voltage that kills you...it's the current. It's almost as if they should place "recommended" pull--loads in the manual (i.e. 5 cars, 8 cars, no more than 10 cars for any long duration...etc.). What is interesting is that on your layout, you don't have any major inclines for the locos to go up....so truth be told, your locos have a pretty decent "lifestyle"....especially compared to some of the other big layouts with hills , etc. I've seen on TH-cam.
Yeah that seems to be true - these really aren't much good though as you can see! Recommended pull loads is a very cool thought actually! Thanks for watching, Sam :)
I recently bought a 30 year-old Hornby Black 5 from Ebay. When I was first trying it out, the loco started to smoke quite heavily. However, after a few minutes, and the smoke had disipated, I tried it again, and found that it actually ran BETTER - much more responsive to my controller, and much faster.
@@SamsTrains Yes. A Ringfield Type 5. However, I was assured by the seller that the locomotive had had a good service before being placed up for sale. So it may well have been oil being burned off.
There is a component of the drive force which pushes the worm away from the drive gear which can deflect the motor axle which also will heat the bearings.
I once over-sped a pannier and it blew up. Thing is it was a really old and unclean Mainline engine. Luckily I could salvage the engine and now it’s a motorless shell on a display shelf.
It'd be interesting to see a video on the few of us that get burned out on model railroading. I packed my locos and layout up awhile back and I just haven't had the drive to restart. It seems to be a common problem anymore, or it is here stateside.
I got opposite experiences with little DC motors in model railways (scale H0) or construction kits. In case of a blockade they consume always their maximum of current, but did not exceed 0,7 A. Common and intended use leads to not more than 0,3 up to 0,4 A in maximum. The small motor type you tested in your video I rather found in N scale models. When voltage applied gets too high and the motor runs freely without any load especially the smaller types begin to make a squeaking noise after a short time and have to get replaced. It is a very bad idea to get "plenty of oil in the bearings" of a motor. E.g. brass bearings have an internal structure allowing them to keep lubrication for a long time due to capillar effects, these types of bearings work a bit like a sponge. If you apply too much oil the lubrication just flies away quickly and make the bearings running dry. The manufacturer of my model locos (H0) (and many others) advises his customers to apply not more (!) than just one small drop of recommended oil on each bearing, for the newer motors they do not want to have any lubrication at all. If the oil reaches the brushes the (always present) arcing converts it into a mixture of coal and tar. Coal conducts electricity and can short the commutator, tar isolates and can prevent the motor from any movement electrically or mechanically.
I have an old Triang 0-6-0 saddle tank engine and after I bought it I noticed a smell, but I put it down to not being ran for ages, then I saw smoke coming out the cab, I investigated and its a part of the commutator is where the smoke is coming from, I didn't run it, so it wouldn't ruin the motor, I'm hoping to get it checked out at my model railway club :)
I know I you feel Sam. I’m from America and I have a dock switcher made from a company called Lionel I got it on Christmas Day I believe it was 2017. I was running it around my Christmas tree, it was only pulling about like 2 cars. But then I realized it was slowing down. I shut it off and it smelled really bad. Turns out that the motor and the reversing unit was burned out. My dad tried to find new parts but he could not find the motor. It hasn’t ran since. 😔
None of my locos have ever done this, but I do have a 'pocket rocket' style 0-4-0 that sparks like anything on my second hand track, no matter how much track rubbering I do. I am always a bit nervous of using it!
Video suggestion: talk about soldering! I have three (!!!!) second-hand X03/04 motors with soldering issues, including a pretty unique Jinty repainted into LMS black. I have the soldering kit but am lacking confidence to crack on - much as with multimeter guides, soldering guides online are often unclear (to me).
Occasionally, the motor on my bachmann n scale u36b will start glowing bright yellow like a light near the motor brushes. She's old and sat unused with a missing brush spring for almost 20 years, it doesn't have too many hours on it.
About a year ago, I bought a loco from the 1980’s from a train fair, and it was in good physical shape, but at higher speeds its wheels would spark like crazy. I stored it somewhere and I haven’t run it since.
I like that these motors have to be maintain it gives more "realism" since the real things did need actual maintenance. I hope the kids watching had payed attention and had learned a thing or two
Just got a used Broadway Limited Imports Pennsylvania GG1 last week, it stopped running a few days after I got it. I opened it up today and found out the pick up wires on one side of the engine have fried. Working on replacing them now, hoping it works out.
Me: **reads the title** Also me: What kind of dangerous yet creative antics is our Sam up to now? 😂 Nice vid Sam, time for me to binge watch all of your crazy experiment videos 🤣
I tried an old triang 0-4-0 not realising how old it was. it cause the track to spark, and at the moment it started smoking I took it off the track straight away, I never used it again. But I still have it on my shelf next to my fireplace ( rather ironically )
Uh-oh… I have an original Hornby 58 with this motor. I’ve been running it over here in Canada using US controllers that actually spin up to 18V on full chat, and I’ve just bought it a rake of 12 HAA. I don’t know if I dare run it with a full train now, especially seeing as I’ve got quite an incline to contend with…
Luckily I've had no catastrophic failures to any of my locos but I do have an N scale brass diesel with an open armature motor that's arcing n' sparking all over. I tried cleaning the commutator with contact cleaner but it's only helped slightly. I also recently purchased some used N locos including a diesel with one melted down truck/bogie. Another person left the loco bridging two blocks of a DC layout causing the meltdown!
Good to hear that Sharky - yeah I've had a few like that - some do just spark a lot! Blimey - that doesn't sound good at all, lol! ;d Thanks for watching - Sam :)
I'm building a new 'N' Scale train track and on my old track I had run a Fleischmann piccolo 7471. This one also burned down. I took it apart and tested it and burned my fingers. Unfortunately they don 't build them anymore. So I'm down one train. Its to bad.
I can’t wait for the next How to Burn Down Your Model railway episode! I wonder what’s next, perhaps it will be by having a very faulty engine’s engine explode?
hornby does recommend that old or damaged models,motors or other electric items should be recycled at household waste recycling centres in small appliance bins
I had a Dapol B4 at a show this past weekend that couldn't quite handle the stress of two hours of straight running. Haven't really determined whether it is a motor problem or pickup problem yet. In any case, I expected better performance from a nearly new loco on a nearly new layout. Anyway, talk to you soon. ;)
Thanks again for the information, I learned something new again. I seen you had 5 coaches and a brake van when the disaster happened, I have a Terrier with two plank wagons and a Van. If I purchase three or four more wagons to add on, do you think that would be overloading the locomotive. I also took the time to learn to spell a word you used "Effervescence", A good learning day all the way around.
Locos with motor issues in my fleet at the moment (others are fixed): - Bachmann + (US) B23 diesel: brush "dematerialized"; couldn't get a new set (motor otherwise OK) - Spectrum (Bachmann US) GP40 diesel (split chassis): won't run steady, speed changes randomly (same motor btw)... brush maybe, and over-oiling? - Liliput (Bachmann group) D13 diesel: runs fine, has a 5 pole flywheel motor , but generates heat, even without load, killed two 21pin decoders so far, ... ?faulty pole? - no response from Bachmann/Liliput EU ltd. for replacement - Rivarossi V160 diesel (old): brush crumbled , needs an unusually large brush with a hole in the middle,... no luck finding one so far. - Piko DRG class 96 tank loco(the pilot lot one, with the large brass motorpart, only 1 year in production, then model got a major upgrade): slows down after it warms up, but no significant heat, or bad smell ??? My later one is OK -Jouef SNCF CC 40101 electric: motor fell apart ... weird ! - loco will be scraped for parts. No motor issues with German or Japan models so far!
I had that happen with my lima class 08 and also my hornby E2 sparks when it goes over a half turn on the controller, the wheels sparked loads. Only the E2 still works.
I’ve had loco motors smoke on me but I cut the power immediately and they still run ok, I remember as crazy as it may seem I had an old tri ang Britannia that I thought had burned out, but recently I applied power to the motor and all it needed was lubrication otherwise it was fine. The strangest part was my Bachmann Thomas, that burned out with no warning at all not even by slowing down. But that was some years agi
Yeah I guess if you can catch it and cool it down before any damage is done, you might get away with it! Yes the Tri-ang locos are very difficult to burn out! Thanks for watching - Sam :)
Thankyou for worrying me now as I have a Terrier and a 14xx with the same motor. There used to be companies in the model railway magazines who sold decent quality replacement motors from Japan although I can't remember if there are companies who sell the decent quality ones anymore.
You might be thinking of Mashima. I don't think they make model railway motors anymore. I know of at least one place in the States that has some new old stock Mashima motors on hand. Which reminds me I do need to pick up a couple soon for two brass N scale locos I'm repairing...
Are the brushes fragmenting and shorting out the armature? I'm in North America, and I've seen that style of open frame motor in a lot of slot cars, but not model locomotives. (20 years working at a toy and hobby store.)
I wondered that - possibly! I didn't realise they were using the same thing in slot cars - strange, since they don't seem to like getting thrashed! ;D Thanks for watching - Sam :)
That was very interesting Sam, and clearly shows that despite the wonderful detail achieved in today's models, without powerful and reliable motors, then it all a waste of money...Bob
Yeah you're right Bob - I've never been a fan of these daft little motors ;)
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
As somebody who's been inspired to potentially start my own model railway collection some day, your channel definitely is useful for things like what models to avoid and maintaining the ones I do get, given they require a lot more maintenance than I would have initially thought. Excellent work!
5:57 smoke from the cab windows, you say
you sure it broke down? driver and fireman might just be on a overly long smoke break, it'd explain the smell ;)
haha darn it - that must be what happened! :O
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
either that, or SUPER realistic firebox detail!
The 14XX was just trying to go thermonuclear like Godzilla 😂
This was both fun to watch and interesting, keep that railway safe my friend ^^
How to burn down your model railway:
'they had is in the first half, not gonna lie'
Good video Sam!
You spoiled the video
haha! ;D
As of your question of if there was any smoke when the motor failed, there wasn't but there was sparks! (Locos was Tri-ang Jinty from garage sale before being oiled)
Ahh dear - yes I've seen it happen many a time :(
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
my hornby triang mallard started smoking today! It was terrifying but luckily I could turn everything off before stuff got serious.
I thought I was going blind because I couldn't see any smoke. But then I realised my brightness was low so I turned it up. Very interesting and handy video Sam thanks
haha yeah - it was tricky to see on camera!
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
One of my Bachmann 2-8-0s was running and it stopped on a curve and I saw smoke coming from underneath the drivers and turned it off right away luckily I was able to replace the motor and get it working again but then a week later the side rods got messed up while it was running and I’m not sure how to fix it so I was thinking about sending it over to see if you could fix it. Great video by the way. Thanks, Rails Of The East Coast
SAM - Great experiment ! interesting results. You should do a video on how to add a mini fan and heat dissipation fins !
Keep up the great videos, you do more for us than just review the new products !
Me: Anything can be a smoke machine if you operate it wrong enough.
Sam with that motor: *S t o n k s*
haha I agree with that whole heartedly! ;D
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
Sam is the only one that can keep me entertained while he fixes a train
Awhh that's lovely to hear!! :D
Merry Christmas - Sam :)
No one:
Not a single soul:
Sam:
*HOW TO BURN DOWN YOUR MODEL RAILWAY*
haha exactly!! ;D
Great video Sam 👍
I like the investigation into why it happened
And of course the fact you’re not frightened to have ago
Or try things out
Keep it up👍😊
Thanks a lot Jon - glad you enjoyed the sciency bit, haha! ;D
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
The closest I had was decoder burnout due to poor wiring and soldering from Hornby. Was surprised that your experience has seen bachmann with more motor issues. Very interesting to watch and most enjoyable. Most of all hobby safe Sam. Clint
Oh yeah I've had that once or twice before - decoders blowing up - but yes, many Bachmann failures in my experience!
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
Excellent video Sam,my Hornby Q1 caught fire because the link rod below the smokebox detached itself from the motion and caused a short circuit.This was spectacular as there were flames and smoke in seconds which melted the locomotive body on that side. I removed the locomotive and put the fire out,luckily the mechanism and sound chip were ok.This was a brand new locomotive so this should not have happened, I fitted a new body to the locomotive and did not refit the link rod as the earlier models did not have it.
Crikey Tony, that sounds really dramatic - I've often had loose crankpins on models from Hornby!!
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
Great video Sam I have had a couple of motors break on me
Thanks David, sorry to hear that :(
I've had an 0-8-0 that sparked and pored out smoke like it had a smoke machine in it. I was fine and it was fixed
@@fawnathefox9600 *T h e r m o n u c l e a r*
Loved the video, thanks for uploading I’ll be careful in future
- Ollie
haha no worries Ollie! :D
Sam you are so helpful. My dad has died now but my earliest memory is sitting up in the attic with my dad as he cleaned and ran his huge 00 gauge. My mother making and painting buildings. I love all sorts of railways real and model. Love your videos and have subscribed.....Jayne😊🚂🚂🚂🚂🚂🚂🚂🚂
Sorry to hear about your dad, but great that you have so many memories - thanks a lot for subscribing! :D
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
Yeah even my Bachmann FT once smoked then 3 years later the gears cracked.
I decided to junk it, I kept the chassis for a future metal casting project.
Blimey that doesn't sound good - definitely worth keeping it for parts though! :D
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
Sam great video as usual I have only one problems with your videos they are to short I wish they were longer a lot longer . They are so entertaining and I learn a lot about my favorite hobby it is nice to see others so interested in this hobby. Keep up the great videos.
Thanks Louis - the next one should be longer! :D
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
My Bachman Thomas has a similar open frame motor, and when I went to service it, it had this green gunk in it! Even stranger, the loco had been running fine with it there for who’s knew how long, and after I removed most of the goo, it still ran perfectly!
Yeah they do have a similar motor - that was probably some lubricant - it should run better now that's not inside the motor ;)
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
Sam. Great video. Don’t know how I missed it before. Anyway, very interesting. Can’t believe half an amp could do that.
Keep up these great videos. Even if a few/most don’t cause sparks.
Thanks John - yes you're right - you can generate a lot of heat though a small amount of current!
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
Hi Sam I am relieved to see you didn't hurt yourself. You are very brave!
Are you mad with me Sam? Why are you not replying? :(
haha not at all - I've just been getting a lot more comments recently! :O
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
Oddly enough, the exact same thing happened to my 14xx earlier on this afternoon, probably for the same reason. Not totally burnt out though, it still runs but intermittently. I've sent off for a replacement motor and I will check out the old one to see if it's repairable. Nice video. 🙂👍
Blimey sorry to hear that mate - the motors are good and cheap aren't they? Though that's probably the issue ;)
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
Yes a very good price. £4 plus just under £2 p&p. I hope that doesn't reflect a sign of the quality. 🤔
Liked that, nice to learn why these are always failing. Great video Sam 👍
Thanks George, glad you found it interesting mate! :D
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
Great video Sam! I just found your channel and subscribed. Very nice instructional video. Love your train collection, it's awesome! 👍
Me at the end there: this seems really stupid and dumb
Sam: "let's leave the rag there and see it it sets 🔥"
Me: oh wow Sam has gone mental
The GWRailfan Not the only one thinking that!
haha!! ;D
I bought the Airfix version of the 14xx recently, exclusively for a replica "Titfield Thunderbolt" train, and because it didn't cost too much - The motor seems alright, though the mechanism squeals quite badly in reverse. The motor failure on your more modern one is, er, definitely something spectacular.
Ahh yeah - have you tried giving it a bit of a service? The motors on the older models did seem to be better!
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
@@SamsTrains I've had the loco as far apart as I could get it, seems a lot of the Airfix stuff have totally sealed drive units, though it does run well enough forward for what was roughly £20. Could potentially be something to do with the brushes, not completely sure.
I'm not there yet. however i did " visit" a loco hobby shop. i learn a lot watching your video. your very easy to listen to. i connect to your style of explanation.. it works for me anyway.... 👍
Sounds good John - better plan one or two more 'visits' - really glad you like these anyway! :D
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
Ive noticed the older motor has lower gearing, the worm has a finer pitch.
Ahh really, you mean a previous 14xx??
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
Hi Sam. Good video as always. I've had a lot of problems over the years with hornby motors hence now all my locomotives are bachmann. I do however have a good tip. When oiling the motors I use a sewing needle to dip in the oil when lubricating the end bearing. That way its almost impossible to over lubricate and no risk to the commutator. My oldest locomotives are sixteen years old and still on original motors including the brushes. Keep up the good work. Chris.
Thanks a lot Chris, sorry to hear that - yes that's a good tip - I do only use a tiny amount of oil!
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
1:06 I spy a classic which was the one that got me to buy MY Triang 3F and subscribe to your channel ;) Really glad to see that the fail didn't originate from one of those, I know they get a bit of a rep for 'looking' dangerous with the Back-to-the-future arcing on the wheels when running sometimes. Great video, Sam!
haha fantastic - glad you like that, and thanks for subscribing! :D
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
I have five locomotives that had motor burnouts. Two happened during normal operation, one happened when the plastic drive shafts jammed, and two were from just trying to get the engine to move again (like you did, but these locos haven't burned out previously). All of them were used models except for one Bachmann diesel I got new back in 2011
Most of my motor burnouts happened with "pancake" motors from various manufacturers and various ages.
That's quite a lot mate - and yes I've seen one or two pancake failures :/
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
Obviously, Motors run on their contained smoke. As the % of Load (drag) RPM decreases, (from the No Load value), the brushes and communitator winding start to get hot .Add enough drag and you will find the point where all of the motor smoke is released ! Once it's out, it's Bye, Bye motor !
GREAT informative Video, SAM !
This is what makes the joys of getting used model trains of EBay is all about. You get to play the “see what engine works and what engine starts belching smoke” game! I’ve played that game about 5 times now… sadly one of those times being with a hornby jinty. Tried to fix it to no avail.
Thanks Sam! I was dying for a tutorial how to burn down my railway. This helped!
Lol 😂
Glad to hear that mate - good luck! ;D
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
Sam, he was being serious.
Kayla XD
I run german steamers on my N scale layout and i always buy them second hand so the most of them are from the 80s and al of them have this motors..... 1:57 now im scared....
they are from a german brand called Fleischmann. they are very common here in the Netherlands.
Uh oh! I'm sure German motors won't burn out like this - they'll outlive us all! ;D
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
Hi Sam, For the price we all pay for Hornby or other locos they should never burn out ,should run perfect for years and years, these problems should have been ironed out years ago by Hornby etc , Cheers Sam
Yeah I agree - cheap motors like that aren't acceptable!
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
Spectacular stuff Sam, could almost smell that 'cooking' from here! Great video, many thanks.
haha thanks Mike, apologies for the smell ;)
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
Also had trouble with Bachmann motors. You mention replacing them - where can you buy replacement (higher quality) motors?
Good question. Also for Hornby
In truth you can’t upgrade them just have to keep replacing them as and when they fail
I've never found any better Bachmann ones - they seem to be proprietary (not accidental!) I'm doing a video on the Hornby ones soon! :D
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
Weirdly enough I actually my Triang class 37 had the same issue with what look liked blimmin thermite. I had sent you an email about it but this answers my question very nicely!
haha really?! I've never known that happen with a tri-ang! :O
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
When Sam says meltdown you know it’s good to pay attention to him
haha absolutely!! ;D
I love the X03 X04 motors. They are so Easy to maintain.
Even I know how to Fix that motor..!! Dad taught me..!
Good video. Oldie but a Goodie..!😎
Hi Sam
One of the reason can be your pulse power supply. Those motors were not designed for the power what you supply can deliver ( PWM or just a thyristor chopped 50 Hz). Most of the pulse power packs always deliver in pulse with modulation (PWM) the maximum power to the motor. This method overheats the commutator and the coils ( the commutator has to interrupt and turn on always the maximum voltage from the power supply. ). This method is even more dangerous for coreless motors because of lower heat dissipation capacity.)
In old fashion filtered DC power packs the maximum voltage is present only at maximum power ( when you run your trains at maximum speed - how often is this the case? ).. One of the possible solutions is to reduce the voltage what goes into your power packs. ( in DCC for eg to 10-12 V). In your GM power pack it is more complex issue.
Just an example. The commutator on a 6000 RPM 3 pole motor interrupts the power 200 times per second (200 Hz) only on highest speed. Every interruption creates a spark and heat. When you use a pulse power supply from GM it adds another 50 or 100 interruption independently from the motor speed, on top of that always with the highest possible voltage ( power). This overheats the commutator and the coils, and finally kills those simple motors.
Thanks for the video sam didnt know too much about the open motors learned a lot
Thanks mate, glad you found it interesting! :D
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
It’s amazing that is all it took to cook that motor, a short stall. Will that kill bigger ones that are not open frame? Maybe even brushless types of motor?
I know - not very durable was it? I haven't tried this on other motors, though maybe I should! :D
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
Yours must be the only model railway channel that needs Smelly Telly to fully appreciate it. Loved it when you said "it's tatered" (not sure how you spell that). Not heard anyone say that since was a kid!
haha not sure you'd want to smell that to be honest! haha yeah - don't know where I pulled that word from, lol! ;D
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
AHHH it seems my problem with my Hornby B12 is solved. This same motor was factory fitted to my B12 when I purchased it well over 10 years ago. It ran well for nearly a year then due to life getting in the way it was packed away in the original box in a plastic storage tub with the rest of my loco's. A while back I decided to build a layout for my Grandson and, lo and behold when the B12 was placed on the track and power applied it would not run and instead it sat there and emitted an acrid smell and smoke. So not being that confident to strip the loco and motor down and, only this week after watching and getting inspired by your videos I pulled the loco down and dismantled the motor. I thoroughly cleaned everything and what did I find the brushes gone as with your motor but not as bad. In fact I could find no evidence that there ever were any brushes. The only contact with the commutator were the brass fingers that would have held the brushes. All I can deduce from this is that the materials used to make the brushes was so sub standard as to be absolutely useless for the purpose or a very poor quality control issue allowed this model to slip through. I had previously purchased a new motor ( Poweline P1232A ( mk3) from E Bay which was not cheap and will now fit that. I did manage to get the original motor to run again but without the brushes it is totally useless as a spare. What I can't figure out is why did Hornby put these pathetic substandard motors into the B12 and not something more robust such as an XO3 or similar??? At least I can buy XO3's in bulk quite cheaply. So unless I can find a mount to take an XO3 or similar I will be stuck with paying $18.95 or 9.47 English pounds each so quite an expensive exercise. This will now ensure this loco does not get much running time as it will end up being to expensive to maintain. I will contact Hornby to see what they can do but am not hopeful of any sort of positive outcome other than a note saying they received my E Mail.
When motors over heat, the insulation on the wires that make up the windings in the motor softens or melts an electrical short usually develops, sometimes with an exciting show.
That's absolutely true - I should have measured the windings on the failed motor, that would have been interesting!
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
The wire 'windings' looked fine in the video. The commutator was the problem. I always think to run them in a bit at first. It would be an interesting experiment to monitor the current when adding one carage at a time.
Your videos are brilliant and you should see and smell what happens to a full size diesel- electric loco after a traction motor or the resistor failer it goes Bang in a Big way ! Lol I was in a class 73 electro- diesels engine room when we had this happen once , keep up the good work .
Thanks so much Ian - I bet that must be quite a frightening event - does it happen often?! :O
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
@@SamsTrains not that often Thank goodness lol
Goodness gracious me. I've actually got several loco's with that motor luckily I've never experienced such events. Very interesting and informative :D
Glad to hear that - I should say I have many that haven't failed too - it's not like they all blow up! ;D
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
This was only recently but I was running in a spare Hornby Thomas chassis, it made it round the curve for the 10th time and as soon as it hit the points it just snap crackle popped and spat smoke everywhere in a comedic fashion! Doesn't seem to run but tries to, I think a fault was one of the brushes was bent wrong
As I've just bought a second hand class 58 I found that VERY interesting! Thanks Sam top job.
haha yeah - just don't overload it! ;D
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
Excellent video Sam. It does seem, in general....that the smaller the engine....the smaller the motor....but you would think they'd be a little bit more powerful and durable than that. Interesting failure....and yep, there's an old saying...it's not the voltage that kills you...it's the current. It's almost as if they should place "recommended" pull--loads in the manual (i.e. 5 cars, 8 cars, no more than 10 cars for any long duration...etc.). What is interesting is that on your layout, you don't have any major inclines for the locos to go up....so truth be told, your locos have a pretty decent "lifestyle"....especially compared to some of the other big layouts with hills , etc. I've seen on TH-cam.
Yeah that seems to be true - these really aren't much good though as you can see! Recommended pull loads is a very cool thought actually!
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
I recently bought a 30 year-old Hornby Black 5 from Ebay. When I was first trying it out, the loco started to smoke quite heavily. However, after a few minutes, and the smoke had disipated, I tried it again, and found that it actually ran BETTER - much more responsive to my controller, and much faster.
Uh oh - was that the old ringfield one? Maybe there was some corrosion on the commutator that took some burning off!
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
@@SamsTrains Yes. A Ringfield Type 5. However, I was assured by the seller that the locomotive had had a good service before being placed up for sale. So it may well have been oil being burned off.
There is a component of the drive force which pushes the worm away from the drive gear which can deflect the motor axle which also will heat the bearings.
I didn't have any motor fails on my railway and I had it for 7 years.🚂
Nice video.
Great to hear that mate - lucky you! ;D
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
I once over-sped a pannier and it blew up. Thing is it was a really old and unclean Mainline engine.
Luckily I could salvage the engine and now it’s a motorless shell on a display shelf.
Ooh yeah those mainline ones are famously unreliable! ;D
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
It'd be interesting to see a video on the few of us that get burned out on model railroading. I packed my locos and layout up awhile back and I just haven't had the drive to restart. It seems to be a common problem anymore, or it is here stateside.
haha that's a very different take - I wouldn't know anything about that, I still love model railways! :D
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
Me: *looks at the thumbnail*
Also me: NOOO! OLIVERRRR!
haha it's okay - I fixed him! :D
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
Should have titled this “how to tell Hornby to use good motors “ lol :) love your vids
Good video
haha, that would have been better, lol! ;D
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
Lolbee-SFM thank you very much I appreciate it;)
I got opposite experiences with little DC motors in model railways (scale H0) or construction kits. In case of a blockade they consume always their maximum of current, but did not exceed 0,7 A. Common and intended use leads to not more than 0,3 up to 0,4 A in maximum. The small motor type you tested in your video I rather found in N scale models. When voltage applied gets too high and the motor runs freely without any load especially the smaller types begin to make a squeaking noise after a short time and have to get replaced.
It is a very bad idea to get "plenty of oil in the bearings" of a motor. E.g. brass bearings have an internal structure allowing them to keep lubrication for a long time due to capillar effects, these types of bearings work a bit like a sponge. If you apply too much oil the lubrication just flies away quickly and make the bearings running dry. The manufacturer of my model locos (H0) (and many others) advises his customers to apply not more (!) than just one small drop of recommended oil on each bearing, for the newer motors they do not want to have any lubrication at all. If the oil reaches the brushes the (always present) arcing converts it into a mixture of coal and tar. Coal conducts electricity and can short the commutator, tar isolates and can prevent the motor from any movement electrically or mechanically.
You know what they say Sam... once you let the smoke out it never works the same again! Interesting video though. Good job.
haha you're right - very true!! ;D
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
I have an old Triang 0-6-0 saddle tank engine and after I bought it I noticed a smell, but I put it down to not being ran for ages, then I saw smoke coming out the cab, I investigated and its a part of the commutator is where the smoke is coming from, I didn't run it, so it wouldn't ruin the motor, I'm hoping to get it checked out at my model railway club :)
Yeah that's pretty common with a tri-ang - just give it a clean up, fresh oil, and it'll be fine! :D
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
@@SamsTrains oh ok, thank you for your advice :)
Interesting video! I once had a dcc blanking plate melt on my Hornby K1 had to send it back for repairs smelt awful lots of smoke!
Thanks Ryan - blimey I've never heard of that before, scary stuff! :O
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
Very enjoyable.....I had a similar experience with my first train set.....dad was not pleased...haha
haha what happened mate?!
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
My wrenn coronation class just caught fire
@@SamsTrains oh god, I have an similar engine
I know I you feel Sam. I’m from America and I have a dock switcher made from a company called Lionel I got it on Christmas Day I believe it was 2017. I was running it around my Christmas tree, it was only pulling about like 2 cars. But then I realized it was slowing down. I shut it off and it smelled really bad. Turns out that the motor and the reversing unit was burned out. My dad tried to find new parts but he could not find the motor. It hasn’t ran since. 😔
Cheers Matthew - sorry to hear about that - that definitely sucks :(
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
Takes me back to "tuning" slot car motors back in the 60's, many similar problems albeit subjected to much heavier abuse !!!
Ahh yes - I've certainly had a few slotcar burnouts in my time too ;)
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
None of my locos have ever done this, but I do have a 'pocket rocket' style 0-4-0 that sparks like anything on my second hand track, no matter how much track rubbering I do. I am always a bit nervous of using it!
Glad to hear that mate - haha yeah, some older locos can spark, it's generally nothing to worry about!
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
Video suggestion: talk about soldering! I have three (!!!!) second-hand X03/04 motors with soldering issues, including a pretty unique Jinty repainted into LMS black. I have the soldering kit but am lacking confidence to crack on - much as with multimeter guides, soldering guides online are often unclear (to me).
Good idea Owen - I'll look into doing that! :D
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
Occasionally, the motor on my bachmann n scale u36b will start glowing bright yellow like a light near the motor brushes. She's old and sat unused with a missing brush spring for almost 20 years, it doesn't have too many hours on it.
About a year ago, I bought a loco from the 1980’s from a train fair, and it was in good physical shape, but at higher speeds its wheels would spark like crazy. I stored it somewhere and I haven’t run it since.
Some locos do that - a bit of sparking around the wheels isn't too bad!
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
I lost a Bachmann Edward due to a burnt motor. It's kinda thankful I've replaced it with a Hornby one now.
Yeah I'm not surprised to hear that - they're pretty bad motors :(
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
Hi Sam,
Those tiny motors remind me of the Faller AMS racing cars from the 60's.. Way too small for a loco.
haha I agree - they're way too underpowered!
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
I like your new intro! It must have been a hell of a job animating that!
Thanks a lot mate - it's a template, so I don't have to reanimate it every time! ;D
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
I like that these motors have to be maintain it gives more "realism" since the real things did need actual maintenance. I hope the kids watching had payed attention and had learned a thing or two
haha that's true - though I don't think smoke and flames is a good lesson to anyone ;)
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
Just got a used Broadway Limited Imports Pennsylvania GG1 last week, it stopped running a few days after I got it. I opened it up today and found out the pick up wires on one side of the engine have fried. Working on replacing them now, hoping it works out.
Ahh that's not good mate - sorry to hear about that :(
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
Sam'sTrains It’s all good, I actually brought it back to life last night. Thanks for the support.
Me: **reads the title**
Also me: What kind of dangerous yet creative antics is our Sam up to now? 😂
Nice vid Sam, time for me to binge watch all of your crazy experiment videos 🤣
haha awesome mate - hope you enjoy this one! ;D
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
I tried an old triang 0-4-0 not realising how old it was. it cause the track to spark, and at the moment it started smoking I took it off the track straight away, I never used it again. But I still have it on my shelf next to my fireplace ( rather ironically )
Sorry to hear that mate - they often need a bit of a service to run well, though the sparks are quite normal!
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
Uh-oh… I have an original Hornby 58 with this motor. I’ve been running it over here in Canada using US controllers that actually spin up to 18V on full chat, and I’ve just bought it a rake of 12 HAA. I don’t know if I dare run it with a full train now, especially seeing as I’ve got quite an incline to contend with…
Me: Just casually taking my Class 350 for a spin and sees this video.
Me: Class 43, you're gonna have to become the man of the rails.
haha!! ;D
Luckily I've had no catastrophic failures to any of my locos but I do have an N scale brass diesel with an open armature motor that's arcing n' sparking all over. I tried cleaning the commutator with contact cleaner but it's only helped slightly.
I also recently purchased some used N locos including a diesel with one melted down truck/bogie. Another person left the loco bridging two blocks of a DC layout causing the meltdown!
Good to hear that Sharky - yeah I've had a few like that - some do just spark a lot! Blimey - that doesn't sound good at all, lol! ;d
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
I ran my Hornby set so much and one day when I was younger the motor soon smelt of burning and stopped working. It went in bin.
Oh uh that's not good - sorry to hear about that :(
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
Yea my wethered hornby LNER 0-6-0 doesnt work and when I try and run it I smell burning paint and it was wethered by hornby from the factory!
I'm building a new 'N' Scale train track and on my old track I had run a Fleischmann piccolo 7471. This one also burned down. I took it apart and tested it and burned my fingers. Unfortunately they don 't build them anymore. So I'm down one train. Its to bad.
Sorry to hear about that mate - that does suck :(
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
Good news is, my only loco I now have with one of these is my pacer and that only has its second coach to pull :)
That is good news - the Pacers do tend to work really reliably! :D
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
Just like in real life ;)
My nephew managed to set fire to my Hornby First Great Western barbie HST when he was 2. The powercar roof melted, then immediately burst into flames.
I have the exact same 14xx and the same thing happened to mine. It was fairly new as well.
Ahh sorry to hear that - it's terrible isn't it??
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
I don't own a single model train but i watch your videos and I love it
Glad to hear you like the videos - hope you can get into the hobby one day! :D
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
I can’t wait for the next How to Burn Down Your Model railway episode! I wonder what’s next, perhaps it will be by having a very faulty engine’s engine explode?
haha I don't know that yet - depends what fails next ;)
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
hornby does recommend that old or damaged models,motors or other electric items should be recycled at household waste recycling centres in small appliance bins
Despite their recommendations, their stuff goes in the normal bin ;)
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
I had a Dapol B4 at a show this past weekend that couldn't quite handle the stress of two hours of straight running. Haven't really determined whether it is a motor problem or pickup problem yet. In any case, I expected better performance from a nearly new loco on a nearly new layout. Anyway, talk to you soon. ;)
Sorry to hear that Andrew - I've had a few dodgy runners from Dapol too - hopefully you can get a replacement :(
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
I’ve had a lot of motor failures with the older liliput locos. Shame since the details on the models were fabulous.
Sorry to hear that Brent - that's Bachmann again for you ;)
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
Thanks again for the information, I learned something new again. I seen you had 5 coaches and a brake van when the disaster happened, I have a Terrier with two plank wagons and a Van. If I purchase three or four more wagons to add on, do you think that would be overloading the locomotive. I also took the time to learn to spell a word you used "Effervescence", A good learning day all the way around.
It's a pleasure Peter - is it one of the new terriers? I'm not aware of this issue with any of the new ones!
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
@@SamsTrains Ok, good news, because it is a new one. Hornby # R3811.
Locos with motor issues in my fleet at the moment (others are fixed):
- Bachmann + (US) B23 diesel: brush "dematerialized"; couldn't get a new set (motor otherwise OK)
- Spectrum (Bachmann US) GP40 diesel (split chassis): won't run steady, speed changes randomly (same motor btw)... brush maybe, and over-oiling?
- Liliput (Bachmann group) D13 diesel: runs fine, has a 5 pole flywheel motor , but generates heat, even without load, killed two 21pin decoders so far, ... ?faulty pole? - no response from Bachmann/Liliput EU ltd. for replacement
- Rivarossi V160 diesel (old): brush crumbled , needs an unusually large brush with a hole in the middle,... no luck finding one so far.
- Piko DRG class 96 tank loco(the pilot lot one, with the large brass motorpart, only 1 year in production, then model got a major upgrade): slows down after it warms up, but no significant heat, or bad smell ??? My later one is OK
-Jouef SNCF CC 40101 electric: motor fell apart ... weird ! - loco will be scraped for parts.
No motor issues with German or Japan models so far!
Quite a diverse range of brands for failures there then - except the German ones of course! :O
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
One of mine started sparking while still running, then failed
i had the same thing happen to my bachmann class O8 but instead of sparking the motor just died
Yeah that's often how it starts - lots of the old ones get a bit sparky!
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
@@SamsTrains You know the old Hornby HSTs? Well will the Old motors get bad like this? Because I have some in my attic I might try soon to run it..
I had that happen with my lima class 08 and also my hornby E2 sparks when it goes over a half turn on the controller, the wheels sparked loads. Only the E2 still works.
Be careful when you take apart the Hornby 14's- The chassis block is prone to shearing between the driving wheels and trailing wheel.
Oh really?? I wouldn't have expected that! :O
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
I’ve had loco motors smoke on me but I cut the power immediately and they still run ok, I remember as crazy as it may seem I had an old tri ang Britannia that I thought had burned out, but recently I applied power to the motor and all it needed was lubrication otherwise it was fine.
The strangest part was my Bachmann Thomas, that burned out with no warning at all not even by slowing down. But that was some years agi
Yeah I guess if you can catch it and cool it down before any damage is done, you might get away with it! Yes the Tri-ang locos are very difficult to burn out!
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
Thankyou for worrying me now as I have a Terrier and a 14xx with the same motor. There used to be companies in the model railway magazines who sold decent quality replacement motors from Japan although I can't remember if there are companies who sell the decent quality ones anymore.
You might be thinking of Mashima. I don't think they make model railway motors anymore. I know of at least one place in the States that has some new old stock Mashima motors on hand. Which reminds me I do need to pick up a couple soon for two brass N scale locos I'm repairing...
That's interesting Ben - I would like to try some better replacements - might do a video on that soon! :D
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
Are the brushes fragmenting and shorting out the armature?
I'm in North America, and I've seen that style of open frame motor in a lot of slot cars, but not model locomotives. (20 years working at a toy and hobby store.)
I wondered that - possibly! I didn't realise they were using the same thing in slot cars - strange, since they don't seem to like getting thrashed! ;D
Thanks for watching - Sam :)