I am late to the party, but I can offer you some potential insights. First, the HC core from EPC is their High Chrome offering, cast by CWC. It is intended for applications that run under 350 pounds of open spring. In my view, that makes it suitable for a hydraulic flat tappet, not a solid especially in a big block. EPC offers a P55 core, that can supposedly take 420-430 pounds open. But, it is more brittle than the HC core. Anyway, if the owner was running more than 330 - 350 pounds of open spring, that's one issue. BTW, EPC says their standard cam core should run no more than 300 pounds open. The surface of the cam looks like it might have been pulse nitrided, post grind. I have seen this a number of times. What happens is it creates a hard, very thin outer layer. The average break in would be aided by this, but it might not last much longer. It also draws core hardness that was present when ground out of the cam, consistent with your measurements. True ion nitriding would take at least a day and half to 2 days to process a cam, and wouldn't leave the surface finish of pulse nitriding if done properly. Nitriding will exacerbate chatter on the lobe if present, as you point out chatter can be caused by wheel true and balance. I don't think there is anything wrong with your lifters, and I suspect the lifters and cam would have fared better had it not been nitrided and/or the spring pressure had been lower. In fact I would like to know more about your hard face hydraulic lifters, and may want to purchase some. The last person I knew at CWC was Dick Zyla, I have not spoken with him in maybe 15 years though. I believe he may have left CWC since, though. Might be worth a call. Thanks for the video.
@@markbulva4188 Maybe? Compared to what? We use stock springs and rockers for break in? You are only pulling 2000 to maybe 2600 RPM? Once break in is done it never seemed to be an issue using stronger springs and higher ratio rocker arms. At a low RPM, there is plenty of time for the valve to open and close without float. Spring pressure MUST be a lot higher to ensure the valve(s) total open and close cycle when operating at high RPM's (you already seem to know that part?) I'm not trying to be a smart a$$ here? Just trying to figure out what you meant by your statement?
your shop performed a great autopsy on that ruined cam. Agreed many cnc machinist do not have the experience/wisdom to know when to dress their grinding wheels to assure optimal wheel grinding surface, the chatter on that cam is proof of that. great video, thank you sir.
Haven't seen a 'hard foot' lifter in a long while. Isky used to sell them and so did AC Delco. I believe those chatter marks on the cam could be caused by the cutting wheel grinding the harder core. Normally you would need change the wheel to a finer grind if the core is that much harder or change the operation speed. A case where a manual operation on a Berco or Van Norman might be better than 'one' program on a CNC. You can watch the sparks. These cam 'autopsies' are always difficult afterwards. All the evidence is destroyed and it's mostly speculation. You can arrive at a 'best guess' but never know for sure. Too many variables. Especially without seeing the rest of the pieces like the block or timing set and valve train. Oil or break in lube too. Most of these blocks are decades old and rebuilt multiple times. Sometimes the lifter bores get screwed up using the 'bake and blast' cleaning method.
Another guy mentioned that we should be contacting Sema about these problems as they claim in their mission statement to be the standard of quality of performance automotive parts
Those lifters do not look like they had been spinning in the bores like they should have and also seems that much wear in a short time may be an oiling problem or very poor quality cam and or something wrong with the cam lobes. Good info, thanks for the video.
I appreciate your videos especially on the “flat tappet cam crisis. I can’t help but think a large portion of this problem is worn lifter bores. A lot of the engines that have cam and lifter problems I see on TH-cam are old engines, probably with worn out lifter bores
What I heard is that zinc was removed from motor oil due to a request from engine manufacturers because of the alloys being used in the new engines. The zinc coated the camshaft and lifters - lubed and protected them.
@@rodiona8781 All API SN, SN+ and SP oils on the market have a minimum of 600 PPM zinc and phosphorous. Always have, it's never been removed, just reduced a bit. Oils of the 50's, 60's and 70's barely even had that amount depending on what oil you bought, zinc and phosphorous levels didn't peak for high concentration until the 80's and 90's. The zinc and or phosphorous will aid in poisoning catalytic converters if an engine burns a lot of it, that's why the levels were reduced. However, that's not the real problem for flat tappet lifters, doesn't help it, but not the root problem.
Hi Daniel, it appears to have alot of contact on the base circle. Maybe not enough lash. Too much spring pressure and or coil bind. Maybe use a profilometer to measure the surface finish. Your lifters should have worked. They are the correct hardness and convex. Thanks for sharing. I feel for everyone involved. Take care, Ed.
Personally, I suspect that the majority of flat tappet failures are initiated through poor machining/manufacturing practices(not yours), and poor break in . Everyone seems to have a thing about zinc and oil, but back in the 80's we were replacing factory cams at low mileage. Plenty of zinc back then. The problem was however related to certain vehicle manufacturers. That said, your honesty and neutral presentation speaks greatly of your professionalism. Speaking of stellite lifters, back in the day I had to convert a set of hydraulic lifters into solids because we couldn't buy solid lifters to fit the motor, and the cam had already been ground. The motor was in the car and came to me for a lack of performance issue. After the conversion, the difference in power was sufficient to break the flywheel bolts. The cam grind was okay 😂😂😂. Excellent video, regards Greg
350 chevy for a shop truck, budget freshen, new cam and lifters, wouldn't start, acted like no compression. Rubbed our nuts for a while, mis-boxed solid lifters, gave it some lash, ran great, still running 30 years later.
For once, I’ve found someone who appears to know what’s required to understand the meaning of hardness in its scope or relationship with tappet vs cam. Hardness is key in the analysis of tappet/cam failures. Thank you.
I have my flat tappet cams Nitrided now. Twice, I have ordered cams from Comp and had it done on top of high ZZDP levels during initial break in. Now Comp offers those SBC cams ALREADY Nitrided to everyone, but just the 2 grinds I ordered and waited over 6 months for. This sure shows the flaws in manufacturing and I am grateful for this channel.
Blocks and lifter bores have to be the right clearins the old blocks and may not be the best they may not turning good anuff i liked the guy that put cam in and liftes in and hand cranked the cam to make sure they spining good test
I always run oil with extra zinc on flat tapper cams. I would be interested to know what his spring pressures on his valves were and if the pressures were equal. I also wonder if his lifter bores were worn allowing the lifters to walk enough in the bore to cause binding that would increase cam to lifter face pressures. You stated that OD of lifters did not indicate insufficient oiling but they can still bind and the wear will transmit to the cam and lifter contact surfaces.
Old machinist here, I am fascinated that there are so many problems with flat tappet cam shaft. Build lots of engines in the 70s and 80s. Mostly flat tappet. It will be interesting. If you can draw some conclusions, I thought for sure taper would be an issue, but it isn’t. About the only thing that’s changed from the good all days is the oil. But Oil is pretty slippery these days, just about everything was Rockwell 45, and most was parkerized . I can’t wait to see what you find in your studies.
I do agree with the analysis of the valve springs being too heavy. People are living in the past and think that they need a heavy valve springs when infact if you lighten the valve train you don't need as stiff a spring. But that information was not included..
I havent ran any Flat tappets at all , hydralic or solids in awhile . I got tired of trouble with hydralics with the spring and checkball seats . I wish those flat thin disc reduced travel valved lifters with stelite bottoms were still around Speed Pro offered years ago . Dam good lifers !!! But i also am seeing some rollers being kinda soft these days too . What has happened to QC ??
Aren't crank journals ground according to crank rotation, where a reverse rotation crank would be ground rotating opposite of right-hand rotation? I'm wondering if the same holds true for cams, they need to be ground accordingly?
I like your analysis approach to the process of finding what’s in the makeup of the iron. From my distant point in space, Manchester, NH, I’m beginning to think that there might just be a lot junk iron from multiple sources. It’s something that is used to make up a batch of iron that was composed of brake drums, brake discs, frying pans, tin cans, etc,etc. Any engineer worth his salt should be willing to jump at the chance to defend the melt in his furnace. But if is a mix of different metals just to meet the demand for an order from a foundry to get his blanks made, who to say what’s really in this alloy? You said the the best bet would to use a satellite nose piece. Well at least the satellite would be a known quantity. I know that the Chrysler/Mopar group had serious problem with their lifters. It would be nice to know what they found. At this point the only predictable way to make a cam with predictable performance is a billet cam, that it is known what outcome will be after heat treatment. That is heat treat, grind, and heat treat again. Note: I saw another shop with the same tappet issues. So what he did was to cut and possibly grind half was through the cam., lobes and all, between sections, leaving 4 lobes section cut and ground. He did a slight polish. It reveals something quite surprising. The two lobes in the middle of the 4 lobes had displayed good heat treating of about 1/4” deep. The two end lobes did not have a uniform penetration next to the journal. Right next to the journal the the heat treatment slopped off toward the journal. So the penetration started at at just less than 1/4” down to about 1/8”. I don’t think he realized that proves that there was insufficient time in the heat treatment cycle. I wish I could draw a picture for you but I hope this helps for the discussion. The old engineer Chet
looks like it ground the chrome plating off the lobes leaving the rougher finish where the lifter was grinding the chrome material into lobes. would think enough oil on a smoother surface the lobe would be more polished than it is, even wiped out lobes ive seen appear more polished than the pitting i see in the lobes
Nice video. Unless somebody is racing and rules don't allow rollers, I think you have to be nuts to opt for a FT cam. One FT cam wipe out and the cost of going to roller is already less.
Don’t forget that rollers aren’t available for every engine. Good luck getting a roller setup for an “odd ball” engine. I agree with you 100% If a roller is available for your engine!
@@thisisyourcaptainspeaking2259 No they didn’t have problems back then. I built hundreds of engines all with flat tappet cams and I had one or two failures. The problems begin after the OEMs stopped using flat tappet cams and the NOS supplies ran out. The OEMs had quality control standards the aftermarket doesn’t, and there was enough volume to justify it. If someone like comp cams has a bad run of cams worst case they might have to replace a few (in reality they will just tell you to pound sand). They won’t cover the cost of the damage or labor. If an OE has a bad run not only are they eating a bunch of engines but the labor as well. There are much higher QC standards for OE stuff then aftermarket stuff. Back in the day aftermarket parts especially performance parts were made by the company here in America with pride and were of much higher quality. Today it’s all made in China with zero fucks given, both by the factory in China and the American company selling them. Seriously if they cared they wouldn’t be offshoring the stuff!
@@Trump985 Agree. Although, it seems like even seasoned machinists are experiencing difficulty these days. I'm trying to understand hat has, and hasn't changed then avoid that or at least compensate for it. At the moment, I'm considering yanking the intake for lifter inspection immediately following a 30 minute break-in, for my upcoming rebuild.
Guys I’m new to your channel but the difference between the hardness of the lifter and the hardness of the cam does that have any negative effects on the durability? Like I’ve said I’m a newbie and just trying to learn. Thanks for sharing . Artie 👍
Great video Thank you for your time, I had a cam wipe out on a 396/425HP motor on brake in.... brand new rebuild what do you think the best oil to run when you're running these old motors L 78, 1965 people talk a lot about zinc. What do you think?
I will never know the truth, You know how thet goes. Let's blame the cam company. I paid somebody to do the work and everything. I was busy working myself. now that L-78 motors bulletproof. I'm just happy we saved the motor because it was a 65 in my 65 Corvette, which I owned since 83. But it was heart wrenching to watch. The right machine shop and they tightened it all up in 2005. They knew what they were doing and I had them run backin on the dyno, I took all that fail factor out of it. Scary stuff when you watch a cam and lifters fail . Thank you for replying back.@@johnwilber7137
I wish I knew more about how plasma hardening actually works. What little I've seen is basic promo material showing multiple cams loaded at the same time. Given the wide variances of lobe hardness I wonder about basic geometry in these devices and how it affects evenness of heat application across the entire piece - especially if something got rushed. The surfaces of both lifters and cam you received seemed... mottled, in addition to the striping you noted likely caused by a wheel in need of dressing. Zinc overdose on top of another problem [or two]?
Also how many of these engines are not firing up instantly and are having any assembly lube wiped before they fire. I’ve seen many engines that dont fire up right off the hop and by the time they are running it’s been cranked over with full spring pressures for 20 minutes.
Just a curious thought. Have you examined the lifter cups and/or ends of the push rods? My curiosity is if the cups or push rods are mismatched, as in diameter; angle of the cup vs push rod; wear pattern of a reused push rods; etc., couldn't those things also ADD to the failure problem? If there is binding (drag) of any sort that could "slow down" the rotation of the lifter, wouldn't that contribute to an accelerated wear on the faces? Similar to the point of keeping lifters and cam lobes matched when they are going to be reused. I can't find any information on a "standard lifter cup spec", so I imagine each company has it's own standard. Just scratching my head like everyone else trying to figure out some causes or anything that might contribute to the failure problem.
What spring pressures was used? I've seen alot of flat tappet cams being killed from people buying heads set up with springs for roller cam and people try to use them on flat tappet cams. To much spring pressure for flat tappet.
This issue seems to be showing itself across many builders. This needs to go to a metallurgist, someone who can do all the data collection of all the metallurgy of all the lifters and the cams, that is the individual lobs. And the metallurgist needs the suppliers to anonymously reveal the recipe for the cam blanks and the lifter recipe as well. 7:29 Then all the the heats for heat treating of the cam and the lifters. The metallurgist will have to do all the hardn 7:29 ess testing according to the testing plan he or she sets up. Then and only then will these metal failures become obvious. There are too many material labs in any states for this kind of testing. Some colleges like I went to, had all the microsectioning and hardness testing equipment necessary for this kind of analysis. Try to find these labs and the convince the suppliers to pay the bills. It’s in their best interest. Chet
Are all cams parkerized? Did that cause this problem? A little Googling suggests that parkerizing makes the surface brittle. And typically you rough up a surface before parkerizing. 350# spring pressure times a 1.5 or higher rocker ratio puts 525# on the cam & lifter. A rough, brittle surface rubbing with 525# sounds like a bad idea. Always break-in with low pressure springs.
Funny you mention that. Some are some aren't. A long time ago in the '80's Chrysler did a study on their 2.2 engines and found that the cam and lifters lasted longer without Parkerizing and stopped using the process, at least on those engines. Been a while since I read that paper.
Do you know what the spring pressures were on the heads? That's a wildcard. People hear that you can run 420 lbs over the nose and live with tool steel lifters and they try it with iron lifters.
@@powellmachineinc3179 I’m not disagreeing with you. Don’t want to end up on one of your “can you believe what this idiot said” videos :). We build them with driven assembly grease… high zinc. First start on Castrol gtx (high zinc) with a bottle of zddp from Lucas. Then run them on valvoline vr1 (high zinc). Seems to have been working. The Lucas is probably more superstition at this point but it’s been working. Did they share their assembly lube and breakin oil choices with you? They might have you chasing your tail due to lack of zinc. Just a thought to try to help. I can feel your frustration level on the the flat tappet stuff through the screen :)
The lifters were harder then the camshaft. The camshaft starved for oil and the lifters ate the camshaft lobes. You need to heat treat in house before you ship it. But the wear was probably started the day it was installed. Proper break in lube is a must. You should include the lube in the sale price of the lifters. Forget the cheap stuff that doesn't work. Lubriplate Gear Shield should be used as the assembly lube. Ask for a sample of the used oil both break in and what they used daily. I don't care if it is Lucas. The problem was the cheap oil. Some people have said that they were using Wolf's Head or Brad Penn because it appeared that they were still putting Zinc in the oil. But if l showed you the refinery and them making oil in the parking lot outside of the refinery you wouldn't put it in your lawnmower.
Was that Chrome finished? They said they put on it' Was it spray well? Because that'd be a problem with the heat and the Chrome, especially if that didn't put it all very thick.
Hello sir, my burning question is that my comp cams solid lifters all measure different, some almost flat, AND SOME WITH A LINE ABOUT 1/16 TO 1/8 inch from the chamfer in a perfect circle. It’s like it was ground too much or something. Have you seen this? Can I send a pic? Thank you sir, I’m also going all roller now. Just want to know if the lifters are salvageable (they are new) for a low budget build. Comp cams 30-30 plus nostalgia for 331 Sbc. Thanks for the answer if you have the time. All my friends are seeing the same weird circles on half the lifters they have or more. 👍🇺🇸
7 out of 16 just the other day 10mnts run time. MELLING CAM SOME AFTER MARKET LIFTERS. I OPENED THE LIFTERS NO PROBLEM COULD BE FOUND WITH MY ABILITY. I'm going to look at the cam real good. I purchased another Melling with some GM performance lifters. I pray to God this time it will work. If anyone knows something I don't about Melling please say something I got way to many dollars tied up in this engine o ruin it on crap parts.
@@powellmachineinc3179 That's kind of stiff. I used some Comp 911 springs a few years ago and they broke in fine. I believe in the low 300's. Back in the '80's I broke a cam in on Street Hemi springs, 333# give or take, no issues. Today most of the problems are less forgiveness for mistakes and people 'forgetting' what was learned in the past.
You just found the problem .Full 350# on FTs for breaking is ridiculous. Who does that? Thanks for a sad but informative video, Daniel. Love your channel.
That camshaft is cast so its most likely iron. With a lot of spring pressure I always thought you want the lifter to be made of something different like steel. I always thought running like metals against each other is usually a bad idea. I know stock cams and lifters are usually both cast but they also have no spring pressure. I know the multifuel engines in the military trucks have a factory steel camshaft but they use iron lifters.
I don't know of any application "factory " running a steel cam and iron lifters, the factory automotive and performance aftermarket has been using iron cams and lifters since the beginning
I think your approach to the next step is a very good idea and I look forward to that video. In the meantime could you set me up with a cam and lifters + rockers that won't fail? I don't mind solid lifters I don't mind checking the Lash every now and then, the noise I cant hear it over the engine anyway.
In the FT failure world, After using verified Measured & proper Metallurgy RW hardness, camshaft Taper, lifter Convex face dome Shape & valve Spring Psi Rates, the Only remaining Critical Wear factor Is the Oil quality.....Just as all the above Components are Tested for Quality compliance,...The Specific Motor Oil Needs to be Tested for actual Wear Protection Performance before being used for Break-in & routine running.....Different Motor Oil products from Different manufacturers Are going to have uniquely different Sliding Metal to metal Oil film Wear Protection Break-down psi performances.. ....Just like the Metal components, Motor oil Wear Actual protection can be Radically Different from Advertized.....the Actual motor Oil needs to be Shop, Builder or End User Tested using a "Motor Oil Wear Test Machine" to allow individual Motor Oils to be Sorted for Verified Frictional Wear Protection performance & the End User can decide based on Relative Performance differences what Motor oil to use.....
Full V spring Psi didn't Help the wear issue..... Back in '60's & '70' I never ran Lite break-in springs, special oil or 20 min special Break-in engine Rpms......Just started up, checked Timing & any leaks...If good, just took it around the blick a few times.....SOMETHING is still way Different Weaker too Close to Psi Break-down with No safety Margin compared to those old days....Your Extensive parts measurement Plan sounds real good.....Today there's NO safety Margin it seems......Back in the day you could do everything Wrong & provided you ran full Oil mark & Didn't Overheat, Every new or used Cam/Lifters broke-in No probs.....Big Thx for Everything you guys are doing to help the FT guys out !!
I really believe it’s poor assembly and break in. Saw a post in a group I follow and guy wondered why his cam tore up after he broke it in and changed the break in oil after 3000miles.
How Close to lifter Failure was I ?? .....Started Carefully looking over my factory Original 1970 426 Hemi hydraulic Lifters with Only 10,500 miles use.....They were pulled out in 1972 for a solid Lifter & Cam upgrade...The motor Sounded good & ran 13.07 @ 107 mph 1/4 mile on that Oem factory Hydraulic cam.....One Lifter Face has a perfectly smooth & flat Inward concave Depression 0.660" wide.....Was that Lifter Close to Not rotating & Killing my new, 2 yr old, 10,000 mile Factory engine ?? Only good Pennzoil 10W30 or 20W50 was used with Very Frequent Oil & Filter changes....As it Wasn't my Daily driver & Never driven in rain or snow accounts for relatively Low milage....That's the 1st Lifter I've had time to inspect & Measure......The engine used 320# Open, Single Spring with Damper.....Is this an Example of 1970--1972 Factory Oem Accelerated flat Tappet Wear & imminent Cam & Tappet Failure ??
That cam casting looks like warmed over garbage to me. So grainy. I'm just starting to learn about metal casting but I'd say something like the metal was over heated when poured or had too much carbon or both. Did you ever get reports back?
Wonder if it’s the oil. They both didn’t look happy with each other like lack of lube, not enough to blow it but enough. Lake speed had a good show on oil and zinc additives. These guys need a oil that has zinc in the base and not so much detergent, or ones that work with zinc and not clean it off the cam. Guys pour zinc in their modern oil and the detergent just wipes it off the cam and not let it stick to it.
This video is from 7 minths ago . That means the major cam companies are fully aware of whats causing the failures , but they're still selling the exact same problems to people that havent been paying attention . We all know who I'm talking about . They get the glowing praise on network TV and continue to sell junk . Worse than junk because the damage isnt limited to the cam/lifters . I'll be very careful to avoid their products in the future .
Btw,....That Lifter Face flat inward Depression is 0.003" deep.....Assuming it Originally had the usual 0.002--0.003" tall Concave Dome, ....that would be about 0.006" Lifter Face wear in 10,000 miles running......Apparently it Was Rotating Normally to when I replaced Cam & Lifters with Racer Brown solid cam.....
Just a thought guys, not running the factory oil by pass during flat tappet break in will help keep most of metal shavings in the filter...in case of a bad cam... thanks for the video
Flat tappet cams have been used for over 100 years. WHAT HAS CHANGED!? Oil?……. Maybe too slippery now? Cam cores? Chineseum? I wish the problem could be isolated. Flat cams used to happen , not often but they did happen. What has changed?
That cam grind is most firsure chader on it the stone was bad but the cam finish is most for sure bad that being hardend real eat the lifter up I run solids on my dirt car for years and never had that troubke and thay were all reprints 280 duration 530 lift😅
16:00 No big need to have material analyzed if parts had heat numbers to reference Material Test Reports with hardness, charpy v-notch, tensil strength, etc.
I always stay with the same manufacturer for parts that play together. Thanks for making this video and thank you for your time. I'll try to get off my lazy butt and inventory my cams.
@@powellmachineinc3179 According to my receipt my custom billet crank, billet rods, billet hydraulic roller cam and hydraulic roller lifters for my I6 292 all came from Crower. Now that I have changed to a Ryan Falconer V-12 head I will need a new cam. The valves are in a different order. I'll be running 1000 HP or more so won't I want a solid roller cam and lifter?. Maybe you can help me out with that when the time comes?
@Lazy Hound Racing possibly, shoot me a print and im happyto qouteit, we are in the beginning stages of manufacturing billet cores in house, but crower doesn't make flat lifters, they don't make roller lifters either as far as I know, most of the world just reboxs part's
@@powellmachineinc3179 I figured that. They probably just buy them and mark them up. It's warming up here so I will be starting on my chassis soon but I will definitely hit you up when the time comes. I still need to make a deck plate and get someone to weld it onto the block and sleeve it to mount the new head so it will be a while.
@@powellmachineinc3179 so what I'm getting from all this is, the cam companies want everyone to go roller skating (blading) and skip the flat tappets ALL together!?
Just because your steel is hard does not mean it has sufficient structural integrity. I've seen super hard iron crack and splinter before mild steel. The harder steel gets the more brittle it becomes.
Ive been a mechanic for 35 years. Never have I heard of this happening so frequently. Cams should not be failiing. Perhaps spring pressure too tight/ pushrods too long. What is going on with these failures?
Personally, I would run cam and lifters as a set, not from different manufacturers. Also, the cam core has to be there. It can't be questionable. I don't care what anybody says. In 2023, we can, as a community, get to the bottom of what is going on with flat tappet cams/lifters. I think Powell Machine has come the closest to finding the solution and fully support the engineering company's findings. We have millions of people that still, and always will have vehicles with flat tappets. From antique vehicles in collections to 60s era Hi-PO machines, to NHRA "stock" classes... there are still many, many vehicles that run them and at some point will have to replace FTs upon rebuilding. I'm not going to throw in the towel just yet and say that rollers are the answer. That's giving up. You can't have flat tappets go 100,000 miles one day, and go to the present condition the next. That doesn't make any sense. We will find the answer, and I'm putting my $$$ on Powell Machine. I'm just an individual who welcomes a difficult challenge of problem solving. And my next cam and flat tappet lifters are coming from Powell Machine, regardless of this installment.
Part of the problem or maybe all of it is the influx of foreign junk on the market. The QC is non existent on that stuff. The big cam companies are buying that stuff by the boatloads and selling it as American products. Yeah it’s in an American box but after that it’s yo-yo. Another issue is the lack of quality people to do the machine work. The older guys that give a crap about their work are retiring. This junk is done by either foreign workers (Crower, and others) or people that really don’t give a crap how the work is. Just Mho.
This is obviously a lifter problem concerning materials and processing. I am now going on my 5th try. Over the weekend while researching on You Tube everything points to materials and processing of the lifter. Look at the cutaways of cams and all the rockwell testing. On one video at the end he talks about Diamond Like Coating (DLC). This is a plasma spray of a thin coating that is almost as hard as a diamond and the carbon in it makes it super slippery. According to him and Comp Cams the independent testing showed that no matter how fast the Spintron went and no matter the spring pressure there is now no problem. No break in problems. I just called Summit Racing, who have been the best dealing with this problem, and am exchanging the normal lifters for a set of the DLC coated lifters. They are about $120/set, not much more than the stock lifters. I will wait another week to finish the job to not have to go through this again. The Comp Cams part # for a big and small block Chevy is SKU 812D-16. How about more of you try this also and let us see what happens in the real world, not the world of incompetence and greed.
The companies that actually do dlc coating charge about 600.00 to coat your lifter, the cam and lifter face must be micro polished, there have been "chipping " issues of the coating and its creating issues, time will tell if a 120.00 lifter set will live, from what I have heard through the grape vine the results haven't been as ur describing. But I hope you have success
You know what there gonna say if they even respond. You need to try and find a independent company that has no interest in the product. Which will cost big bucks am sure. Why you go with a roller and cam so the customer has to blame the cam company and your out of the what happened stuff. Then if something happens it's the customer fault. Nobody want's to take responsibility today. Years ago before roller cams came standard on engines did you see this problem very seldom.
To much zddp can become acidic & actually cause premature wear, just a thought because everyone's so worried about losing a flat tappet cam I wonder if they overdid it on the zddp trying to prevent it th-cam.com/video/erxjPicpYyw/w-d-xo.htmlsi=49usZ74rKPF0Nwci
I've noticed in heating treat tool steel for years recycled steel doesn't like heat it will harden just like it should but it doesn't have the ability to hold up in heat for some reason and the wear resistance is very poor I found heat treating it a couple points harder will help
What does that say about the abilities or talents of today's generation that can't make 'stone age shit' work? Seemed fine just a few short decades ago.
@@misterhipster9509 High dollar? Just because you dump a shitpile of cash into it doesn't mean anything, especially nowadays. 'High dollar' doesn't mean high quality. Especially if you don't know your own limitations. Amateur hour. When he says they used 'grooved lifter bores' AND lifters with a flat that says it all. It's one or the other. Thats a big oil leak. I would not groove the bores when you can just grind the lifters in a mag chuck grinder and V block. If you get too much oil you can create an 'oil wedge' and stop rotation. Once they're spinning and broken in extra oil isn't going correct your mistakes. Like I said. Clown show. I feel sorry when they try to find a scapegoat that supplies one part to blame. It's the 'stacking effect'. They made a bunch of mistakes.
I am late to the party, but I can offer you some potential insights. First, the HC core from EPC is their High Chrome offering, cast by CWC. It is intended for applications that run under 350 pounds of open spring. In my view, that makes it suitable for a hydraulic flat tappet, not a solid especially in a big block. EPC offers a P55 core, that can supposedly take 420-430 pounds open. But, it is more brittle than the HC core. Anyway, if the owner was running more than 330 - 350 pounds of open spring, that's one issue. BTW, EPC says their standard cam core should run no more than 300 pounds open.
The surface of the cam looks like it might have been pulse nitrided, post grind. I have seen this a number of times. What happens is it creates a hard, very thin outer layer. The average break in would be aided by this, but it might not last much longer. It also draws core hardness that was present when ground out of the cam, consistent with your measurements. True ion nitriding would take at least a day and half to 2 days to process a cam, and wouldn't leave the surface finish of pulse nitriding if done properly. Nitriding will exacerbate chatter on the lobe if present, as you point out chatter can be caused by wheel true and balance.
I don't think there is anything wrong with your lifters, and I suspect the lifters and cam would have fared better had it not been nitrided and/or the spring pressure had been lower. In fact I would like to know more about your hard face hydraulic lifters, and may want to purchase some.
The last person I knew at CWC was Dick Zyla, I have not spoken with him in maybe 15 years though. I believe he may have left CWC since, though. Might be worth a call.
Thanks for the video.
Jesus those are pretty low spring rates
@@markbulva4188 Low for what in particular?
@@markbulva4188 Maybe? Compared to what? We use stock springs and rockers for break in? You are only pulling 2000 to maybe 2600 RPM? Once break in is done it never seemed to be an issue using stronger springs and higher ratio rocker arms.
At a low RPM, there is plenty of time for the valve to open and close without float. Spring pressure MUST be a lot higher to ensure the valve(s) total open and close cycle when operating at high RPM's (you already seem to know that part?)
I'm not trying to be a smart a$$ here? Just trying to figure out what you meant by your statement?
Interesting video. Thanks for posting this and your time doing this to educate us.
I always remove the inner springs for break in,bit of a pain but it works.
Only the smart mechanic does that.
your shop performed a great autopsy on that ruined cam. Agreed many cnc machinist do not have the experience/wisdom to know when to dress their grinding wheels to assure optimal wheel grinding surface, the chatter on that cam is proof of that. great video, thank you sir.
Absolutely, glad you enjoyed!
Thank you for sharing your experience AND communication (or lack of) with the companies involved. Keep us posted!
Our pleasure!
Haven't seen a 'hard foot' lifter in a long while. Isky used to sell them and so did AC Delco. I believe those chatter marks on the cam could be caused by the cutting wheel grinding the harder core. Normally you would need change the wheel to a finer grind if the core is that much harder or change the operation speed. A case where a manual operation on a Berco or Van Norman might be better than 'one' program on a CNC. You can watch the sparks.
These cam 'autopsies' are always difficult afterwards. All the evidence is destroyed and it's mostly speculation. You can arrive at a 'best guess' but never know for sure. Too many variables. Especially without seeing the rest of the pieces like the block or timing set and valve train. Oil or break in lube too. Most of these blocks are decades old and rebuilt multiple times. Sometimes the lifter bores get screwed up using the 'bake and blast' cleaning method.
Another guy mentioned that we should be contacting Sema about these problems as they claim in their mission statement to be the standard of quality of performance automotive parts
Finally, a channel with real good content! I own a machine shop and love this!
Welcome aboard!
Those lifters do not look like they had been spinning in the bores like they should have and also seems that much wear in a short time may be an oiling problem or very poor quality cam and or something wrong with the cam lobes. Good info, thanks for the video.
Finally found a site with some useful cam and lifter information. Thanks for posting. A great channel.
I appreciate your videos especially on the “flat tappet cam crisis. I can’t help but think a large portion of this problem is worn lifter bores. A lot of the engines that have cam and lifter problems I see on TH-cam are old engines, probably with worn out lifter bores
It's absolutely a factory
It's absolutely a factor.
What I heard is that zinc was removed from motor oil due to a request from engine manufacturers because of the alloys being used in the new engines. The zinc coated the camshaft and lifters - lubed and protected them.
@@rodiona8781 All API SN, SN+ and SP oils on the market have a minimum of 600 PPM zinc and phosphorous. Always have, it's never been removed, just reduced a bit. Oils of the 50's, 60's and 70's barely even had that amount depending on what oil you bought, zinc and phosphorous levels didn't peak for high concentration until the 80's and 90's. The zinc and or phosphorous will aid in poisoning catalytic converters if an engine burns a lot of it, that's why the levels were reduced. However, that's not the real problem for flat tappet lifters, doesn't help it, but not the root problem.
Hi Daniel, it appears to have alot of contact on the base circle.
Maybe not enough lash.
Too much spring pressure and or coil bind.
Maybe use a profilometer to measure the surface finish.
Your lifters should have worked.
They are the correct hardness and convex.
Thanks for sharing.
I feel for everyone involved.
Take care, Ed.
Just found your channel today loving the tech video's keep'em coming boss.
Welcome aboard!
Personally, I suspect that the majority of flat tappet failures are initiated through poor machining/manufacturing practices(not yours), and poor break in . Everyone seems to have a thing about zinc and oil, but back in the 80's we were replacing factory cams at low mileage. Plenty of zinc back then. The problem was however related to certain vehicle manufacturers. That said, your honesty and neutral presentation speaks greatly of your professionalism. Speaking of stellite lifters, back in the day I had to convert a set of hydraulic lifters into solids because we couldn't buy solid lifters to fit the motor, and the cam had already been ground. The motor was in the car and came to me for a lack of performance issue. After the conversion, the difference in power was sufficient to break the flywheel bolts. The cam grind was okay 😂😂😂. Excellent video, regards Greg
350 chevy for a shop truck, budget freshen, new cam and lifters, wouldn't start, acted like no compression. Rubbed our nuts for a while, mis-boxed solid lifters, gave it some lash, ran great, still running 30 years later.
For once, I’ve found someone who appears to know what’s required to understand the meaning of hardness in its scope or relationship with tappet vs cam. Hardness is key in the analysis of tappet/cam failures. Thank you.
Absolutely 💯
I have my flat tappet cams Nitrided now. Twice, I have ordered cams from Comp and had it done on top of high ZZDP levels during initial break in. Now Comp offers those SBC cams ALREADY Nitrided to everyone, but just the 2 grinds I ordered and waited over 6 months for.
This sure shows the flaws in manufacturing and I am grateful for this channel.
Blocks and lifter bores have to be the right clearins the old blocks and may not be the best they may not turning good anuff i liked the guy that put cam in and liftes in and hand cranked the cam to make sure they spining good test
I always run oil with extra zinc on flat tapper cams. I would be interested to know what his spring pressures on his valves were and if the pressures were equal. I also wonder if his lifter bores were worn allowing the lifters to walk enough in the bore to cause binding that would increase cam to lifter face pressures. You stated that OD of lifters did not indicate insufficient oiling but they can still bind and the wear will transmit to the cam and lifter contact surfaces.
Old machinist here, I am fascinated that there are so many problems with flat tappet cam shaft. Build lots of engines in the 70s and 80s. Mostly flat tappet. It will be interesting. If you can draw some conclusions, I thought for sure taper would be an issue, but it isn’t. About the only thing that’s changed from the good all days is the oil. But Oil is pretty slippery these days, just about everything was Rockwell 45, and most was parkerized . I can’t wait to see what you find in your studies.
Even when we check all the boxes failure still occurs from time to time
Strange old Volvo inline 4s with OHV valvetrain dont have any problems with new cams and tappets....
Thank you for your knowledge and video's USA 🇺🇸 USA 🇺🇸
TYVM
I do agree with the analysis of the valve springs being too heavy. People are living in the past and think that they need a heavy valve springs when infact if you lighten the valve train you don't need as stiff a spring.
But that information was not included..
I havent ran any Flat tappets at all , hydralic or solids in awhile . I got tired of trouble with hydralics with the spring and checkball seats . I wish those flat thin disc reduced travel valved lifters with stelite bottoms were still around Speed Pro offered years ago . Dam good lifers !!!
But i also am seeing some rollers being kinda soft these days too . What has happened to QC ??
Thanks for informing I try not running flat tappet break in with a weak spring 80 lb then go to regular spring
Glad to help
Aren't crank journals ground according to crank rotation, where a reverse rotation crank would be ground rotating opposite of right-hand rotation?
I'm wondering if the same holds true for cams, they need to be ground accordingly?
I like your analysis approach to the process of finding what’s in the makeup of the iron. From my distant point in space, Manchester, NH, I’m beginning to think that there might just be a lot junk iron from multiple sources. It’s something that is used to make up a batch of iron that was composed of brake drums, brake discs, frying pans, tin cans, etc,etc.
Any engineer worth his salt should be willing to jump at the chance to defend the melt in his furnace. But if is a mix of different metals just to meet the demand for an order from a foundry to get his blanks made, who to say what’s really in this alloy?
You said the the best bet would to use a satellite nose piece. Well at least the satellite would be a known quantity.
I know that the Chrysler/Mopar group had serious problem with their lifters. It would be nice to know what they found.
At this point the only predictable way to make a cam with predictable performance is a billet cam, that it is known what outcome will be after heat treatment. That is heat treat, grind, and heat treat again.
Note: I saw another shop with the same tappet issues. So what he did was to cut and possibly grind half was through the cam., lobes and all, between sections, leaving 4 lobes section cut and ground. He did a slight polish. It reveals something quite surprising. The two lobes in the middle of the 4 lobes had displayed good heat treating of about 1/4” deep. The two end lobes did not have a uniform penetration next to the journal. Right next to the journal the the heat treatment slopped off toward the journal. So the penetration started at at just less than 1/4” down to about 1/8”.
I don’t think he realized that proves that there was insufficient time in the heat treatment cycle.
I wish I could draw a picture for you but I hope this helps for the discussion.
The old engineer Chet
Ty
In Europe we use Adamol 15W40 Oil Made in Vienna Austria it has 1135PPM ZDDP
looks like it ground the chrome plating off the lobes leaving the rougher finish where the lifter was grinding the chrome material into lobes. would think enough oil on a smoother surface the lobe would be more polished than it is, even wiped out lobes ive seen appear more polished than the pitting i see in the lobes
Nice video. Unless somebody is racing and rules don't allow rollers, I think you have to be nuts to opt for a FT cam. One FT cam wipe out and the cost of going to roller is already less.
Don’t forget that rollers aren’t available for every engine. Good luck getting a roller setup for an “odd ball” engine. I agree with you 100% If a roller is available for your engine!
Flat tappets worked great until something happened, right?
Another possibility is they always had problems and we just never heard about it.
@@thisisyourcaptainspeaking2259 No they didn’t have problems back then. I built hundreds of engines all with flat tappet cams and I had one or two failures. The problems begin after the OEMs stopped using flat tappet cams and the NOS supplies ran out. The OEMs had quality control standards the aftermarket doesn’t, and there was enough volume to justify it. If someone like comp cams has a bad run of cams worst case they might have to replace a few (in reality they will just tell you to pound sand). They won’t cover the cost of the damage or labor. If an OE has a bad run not only are they eating a bunch of engines but the labor as well. There are much higher QC standards for OE stuff then aftermarket stuff. Back in the day aftermarket parts especially performance parts were made by the company here in America with pride and were of much higher quality. Today it’s all made in China with zero fucks given, both by the factory in China and the American company selling them. Seriously if they cared they wouldn’t be offshoring the stuff!
@@Trump985 Agree. Although, it seems like even seasoned machinists are experiencing difficulty these days. I'm trying to understand hat has, and hasn't changed then avoid that or at least compensate for it.
At the moment, I'm considering yanking the intake for lifter inspection immediately following a 30 minute break-in, for my upcoming rebuild.
Guys I’m new to your channel but the difference between the hardness of the lifter and the hardness of the cam does that have any negative effects on the durability? Like I’ve said I’m a newbie and just trying to learn. Thanks for sharing . Artie 👍
Great video Thank you for your time, I had a cam wipe out on a 396/425HP motor on brake in.... brand new rebuild what do you think the best oil to run when you're running these old motors L 78, 1965 people talk a lot about zinc. What do you think?
I will never know the truth, You know how thet goes. Let's blame the cam company. I paid somebody to do the work and everything. I was busy working myself. now that L-78 motors bulletproof. I'm just happy we saved the motor because it was a 65 in my 65 Corvette, which I owned since 83. But it was heart wrenching to watch. The right machine shop and they tightened it all up in 2005. They knew what they were doing and I had them run backin on the dyno, I took all that fail factor out of it. Scary stuff when you watch a cam and lifters fail . Thank you for replying back.@@johnwilber7137
Can using assembly lube on the lifter bore. besides the face, cause it to hang up & not rotate like it should?
I wish I knew more about how plasma hardening actually works. What little I've seen is basic promo material showing multiple cams loaded at the same time. Given the wide variances of lobe hardness I wonder about basic geometry in these devices and how it affects evenness of heat application across the entire piece - especially if something got rushed. The surfaces of both lifters and cam you received seemed... mottled, in addition to the striping you noted likely caused by a wheel in need of dressing. Zinc overdose on top of another problem [or two]?
AWSOME STARRETTE SURFACE PLATE!
Thank you, it was a good find!
As a machinist, I think the issue is partially the cam blank material composition. So they don't heat treat properly. Obviously, that's speculation.
Also how many of these engines are not firing up instantly and are having any assembly lube wiped before they fire. I’ve seen many engines that dont fire up right off the hop and by the time they are running it’s been cranked over with full spring pressures for 20 minutes.
Just a curious thought.
Have you examined the lifter cups and/or ends of the push rods?
My curiosity is if the cups or push rods are mismatched, as in diameter; angle of the cup vs push rod; wear pattern of a reused push rods; etc., couldn't those things also ADD to the failure problem? If there is binding (drag) of any sort that could "slow down" the rotation of the lifter, wouldn't that contribute to an accelerated wear on the faces?
Similar to the point of keeping lifters and cam lobes matched when they are going to be reused.
I can't find any information on a "standard lifter cup spec", so I imagine each company has it's own standard.
Just scratching my head like everyone else trying to figure out some causes or anything that might contribute to the failure problem.
I haven't seen a cup issue, or pushrod tip problems, but it's definitely something to watch for.
Good video, glad you're trying to get to the bottom of this issue. What's your opinion of the new DLC coated lifters Comp Cams has out?
For the price...gotta be trash, real Dlc coating alone is about 500.00 a set
Could it be lack of zinc ( sp? ) In the oil ?
im late to watching video.but i might have missed if u said.what oil what weight.and how much zinc.
You sure make it sound like metallurgy !!!
What spring pressures was used? I've seen alot of flat tappet cams being killed from people buying heads set up with springs for roller cam and people try to use them on flat tappet cams. To much spring pressure for flat tappet.
Maybe it’s a weak/strong valve spring?
The lifter to “launch” off the lobe then bounce?
The grind Might be accelerating the lifter too much?
It had alot of spring pressure, I haven't checked a lobe to look at the acceleration and velocity yet.
Aren't break-in and valve spring tension still important variables? Thanks
1000% percent
This issue seems to be showing itself across many builders. This needs to go to a metallurgist, someone who can do all the data collection of all the metallurgy of all the lifters and the cams, that is the individual lobs. And the metallurgist needs the suppliers to anonymously reveal the recipe for the cam blanks and the lifter recipe as well. 7:29
Then all the the heats for heat treating of the cam and the lifters. The metallurgist will have to do all the hardn 7:29 ess testing according to the testing plan he or she sets up. Then and only then will these metal failures become obvious.
There are too many material labs in any states for this kind of testing. Some colleges like I went to, had all the microsectioning and hardness testing equipment necessary for this kind of analysis.
Try to find these labs and the convince the suppliers to pay the bills. It’s in their best interest. Chet
Not enough sales for them to care. You want to do this hot rod stuff you gotta do your own work...
Are all cams parkerized? Did that cause this problem? A little Googling suggests that parkerizing makes the surface brittle. And typically you rough up a surface before parkerizing. 350# spring pressure times a 1.5 or higher rocker ratio puts 525# on the cam & lifter. A rough, brittle surface rubbing with 525# sounds like a bad idea. Always break-in with low pressure springs.
Funny you mention that. Some are some aren't. A long time ago in the '80's Chrysler did a study on their 2.2 engines and found that the cam and lifters lasted longer without Parkerizing and stopped using the process, at least on those engines. Been a while since I read that paper.
Do you know what the spring pressures were on the heads? That's a wildcard. People hear that you can run 420 lbs over the nose and live with tool steel lifters and they try it with iron lifters.
Might be a dumb question… are they adding a ZDDP additive for break in? We had the same problem and have to add the zddp to keep the cam happy.
Additives are useless, u need a blended oil
@@powellmachineinc3179 I’m not disagreeing with you. Don’t want to end up on one of your “can you believe what this idiot said” videos :). We build them with driven assembly grease… high zinc. First start on Castrol gtx (high zinc) with a bottle of zddp from Lucas. Then run them on valvoline vr1 (high zinc). Seems to have been working. The Lucas is probably more superstition at this point but it’s been working. Did they share their assembly lube and breakin oil choices with you? They might have you chasing your tail due to lack of zinc. Just a thought to try to help. I can feel your frustration level on the the flat tappet stuff through the screen :)
The lifters were harder then the camshaft. The camshaft starved for oil and the lifters ate the camshaft lobes.
You need to heat treat in house before you ship it.
But the wear was probably started the day it was installed.
Proper break in lube is a must.
You should include the lube in the sale price of the lifters.
Forget the cheap stuff that doesn't work. Lubriplate Gear Shield should be used as the assembly lube.
Ask for a sample of the used oil both break in and what they used daily.
I don't care if it is Lucas. The problem was the cheap oil.
Some people have said that they were using Wolf's Head or Brad Penn because it appeared that they were still putting Zinc in the oil. But if l showed you the refinery and them making oil in the parking lot outside of the refinery you wouldn't put it in your lawnmower.
Was that Chrome finished? They said they put on it' Was it spray well? Because that'd be a problem with the heat and the Chrome, especially if that didn't put it all very thick.
It's actually "high chrome" I said it wrong, not a coating, it's 0art of the casting
Hello sir, my burning question is that my comp cams solid lifters all measure different, some almost flat, AND SOME WITH A LINE ABOUT 1/16 TO 1/8 inch from the chamfer in a perfect circle. It’s like it was ground too much or something. Have you seen this? Can I send a pic? Thank you sir, I’m also going all roller now. Just want to know if the lifters are salvageable (they are new) for a low budget build. Comp cams 30-30 plus nostalgia for 331 Sbc. Thanks for the answer if you have the time. All my friends are seeing the same weird circles on half the lifters they have or more. 👍🇺🇸
Yes, unfortunately there all over the place
The surface of the lobes look really rough. My untrained eye would predict the lifters being destroyed.
Check with the Ed Isky group; Ed had all this under control over 60 years ago with hard faced overlay cams and chilled iron lifters.
Nobody is selling welded cores and I would love to see some chilled iron lifters today
Your lifters are harder than the cam by far- is the the softest cam you've seen?
If the costumer did the lifter grooving, was he carful to deburr the grooves and to make sure the lifters were spinning at start up.
i suspect the oil, roller cams do not use the same old oil flats did, use delvac extreme or rotella 4
Is this cam cast ????? And machined ?
7 out of 16 just the other day 10mnts run time. MELLING CAM SOME AFTER MARKET LIFTERS. I OPENED THE LIFTERS NO PROBLEM COULD BE FOUND WITH MY ABILITY. I'm going to look at the cam real good. I purchased another Melling with some GM performance lifters. I pray to God this time it will work. If anyone knows something I don't about Melling please say something I got way to many dollars tied up in this engine o ruin it on crap parts.
Springs man, Springs.
Do you have any ideas of the spring pressure they used? What about break-in oil? Not critiquing; just curious…
350 open and no break in springs, so there were multiple problems on the 1st day
@@powellmachineinc3179 what is considered an ideal (or maximum) spring pressure for break-in?
@@TD16V I'd like to see 200ish
@@powellmachineinc3179 That's kind of stiff. I used some Comp 911 springs a few years ago and they broke in fine. I believe in the low 300's. Back in the '80's I broke a cam in on Street Hemi springs, 333# give or take, no issues. Today most of the problems are less forgiveness for mistakes and people 'forgetting' what was learned in the past.
You just found the problem .Full 350# on FTs for breaking is ridiculous. Who does that? Thanks for a sad but informative video, Daniel. Love your channel.
I once heard it said, “There’s a reason the OEMs went to rollers”. 🤔
Definitely
That camshaft is cast so its most likely iron. With a lot of spring pressure I always thought you want the lifter to be made of something different like steel. I always thought running like metals against each other is usually a bad idea. I know stock cams and lifters are usually both cast but they also have no spring pressure. I know the multifuel engines in the military trucks have a factory steel camshaft but they use iron lifters.
I don't know of any application "factory " running a steel cam and iron lifters, the factory automotive and performance aftermarket has been using iron cams and lifters since the beginning
@@powellmachineinc3179 hercules engines in army trucks used factory steel cam and cast lifters
@@TheJohndeere466 that would be the exception to the rule,
Check the hardness form a cam from the 60's
We have, several times
I think your approach to the next step is a very good idea and I look forward to that video.
In the meantime could you set me up with a cam and lifters + rockers that won't fail? I don't mind solid lifters I don't mind checking the Lash every now and then, the noise I cant hear it over the engine anyway.
We stopped doing ft cams 2 year's ago
@@powellmachineinc3179 roller it is. Do you guys offer small loans??
@@BKMDano17 small "loans"??
I bet they had a windadge tray or scrapper for the crank. Which just happens to be where 75% of the oil lubricating the lobes comes from.
No doubt
Are you saying windage trays are bad for cam lube??
@@borismcfinnigan3430 of course they are !!! Unless they got direct oiling holes in them the lifters live on splash oiling .
@@bobgyetvai9444 haha omg why even talk if you have zero fcking idea.
In the FT failure world, After using verified Measured & proper Metallurgy RW hardness, camshaft Taper, lifter Convex face dome Shape & valve Spring Psi Rates, the Only remaining Critical Wear factor Is the Oil quality.....Just as all the above Components are Tested for Quality compliance,...The Specific Motor Oil Needs to be Tested for actual Wear Protection Performance before being used for Break-in & routine running.....Different Motor Oil products from Different manufacturers Are going to have uniquely different Sliding Metal to metal Oil film Wear Protection Break-down psi performances..
....Just like the Metal components, Motor oil Wear Actual protection can be Radically Different from Advertized.....the Actual motor Oil needs to be Shop, Builder or End User Tested using a "Motor Oil Wear Test Machine" to allow individual Motor Oils to be Sorted for Verified Frictional Wear Protection performance & the End User can decide based on Relative Performance differences what Motor oil to use.....
We found out today the builder used full spring pressure during breakin...
.
Full V spring Psi didn't Help the wear issue..... Back in '60's & '70' I never ran Lite break-in springs, special oil or 20 min special Break-in engine Rpms......Just started up, checked Timing & any leaks...If good, just took it around the blick a few times.....SOMETHING is still way Different Weaker too Close to Psi Break-down with No safety Margin compared to those old days....Your Extensive parts measurement Plan sounds real good.....Today there's NO safety Margin it seems......Back in the day you could do everything Wrong & provided you ran full Oil mark & Didn't Overheat, Every new or used Cam/Lifters broke-in No probs.....Big Thx for Everything you guys are doing to help the FT guys out !!
Motor oil ? Work in a smaller shop have seen hemis do it ,ls engines and ford rollers too just seems more common then it used to be
I CAN SEND YOU A BRAND NEW CRANE CAM AND SET OF LIFTERS.FROM 35 YEARS AGO NEVER BEEN RUN. YOU CAN COMPARE MATERIALS
I'd love to see that testing on old technology. It's probably 10 times better than the crap made now a days..
I really believe it’s poor assembly and break in. Saw a post in a group I follow and guy wondered why his cam tore up after he broke it in and changed the break in oil after 3000miles.
Please do this
I'd love to see those reports.
Maybe what you need to do at Powell, why not change the Hyd lifter into a solid?
I have considered that very thing!
good tunes
How Close to lifter Failure was I ?? .....Started Carefully looking over my factory Original 1970 426 Hemi hydraulic Lifters with Only 10,500 miles use.....They were pulled out in 1972 for a solid Lifter & Cam upgrade...The motor Sounded good & ran 13.07 @ 107 mph 1/4 mile on that Oem factory Hydraulic cam.....One Lifter Face has a perfectly smooth & flat Inward concave Depression 0.660" wide.....Was that Lifter Close to Not rotating & Killing my new, 2 yr old, 10,000 mile Factory engine ?? Only good Pennzoil 10W30 or 20W50 was used with Very Frequent Oil & Filter changes....As it Wasn't my Daily driver & Never driven in rain or snow accounts for relatively Low milage....That's the 1st Lifter I've had time to inspect & Measure......The engine used 320# Open, Single Spring with Damper.....Is this an Example of 1970--1972 Factory Oem Accelerated flat Tappet Wear & imminent Cam & Tappet Failure ??
Try using David Vizards Oil Extreme Break In Lube
I've ALWAYS used Isky Rev Lube and never ever had an issue. I HATE that red junk.
@@vincemajestyk9497 Red Junk?
Oil Extreme has never been Red!
Have been using Oil Extreme for Years..
That cam casting looks like warmed over garbage to me. So grainy. I'm just starting to learn about metal casting but I'd say something like the metal was over heated when poured or had too much carbon or both. Did you ever get reports back?
did he use the right oil it loooks like to much zddp shoud use driver br 40
who installs this stuff ?
Its the break in oil and most oils chemistry
Wonder if it’s the oil. They both didn’t look happy with each other like lack of lube, not enough to blow it but enough. Lake speed had a good show on oil and zinc additives. These guys need a oil that has zinc in the base and not so much detergent, or ones that work with zinc and not clean it off the cam. Guys pour zinc in their modern oil and the detergent just wipes it off the cam and not let it stick to it.
This video is from 7 minths ago . That means the major cam companies are fully aware of whats causing the failures , but they're still selling the exact same problems to people that havent been paying attention . We all know who I'm talking about . They get the glowing praise on network TV and continue to sell junk . Worse than junk because the damage isnt limited to the cam/lifters . I'll be very careful to avoid their products in the future .
Yup
was there a 500 mile breakin? or a dyno test and GO!!!! Hmmm
Btw,....That Lifter Face flat inward Depression is 0.003" deep.....Assuming it Originally had the usual 0.002--0.003" tall Concave Dome, ....that would be about 0.006" Lifter Face wear in 10,000 miles running......Apparently it Was Rotating Normally to when I replaced Cam & Lifters with Racer Brown solid cam.....
Just a thought guys, not running the factory oil by pass during flat tappet break in will help keep most of metal shavings in the filter...in case of a bad cam... thanks for the video
I think most people block the Bypass, they issue is the debris ar falling directly onto the rotating assembley ,so filters are useless.
Flat tappet cams have been used for over 100 years. WHAT HAS CHANGED!? Oil?……. Maybe too slippery now? Cam cores? Chineseum? I wish the problem could be isolated. Flat cams used to happen , not often but they did happen. What has changed?
That cam grind is most firsure chader on it the stone was bad but the cam finish is most for sure bad that being hardend real eat the lifter up I run solids on my dirt car for years and never had that troubke and thay were all reprints 280 duration 530 lift😅
16:00 No big need to have material analyzed if parts had heat numbers to reference Material Test Reports with hardness, charpy v-notch, tensil strength, etc.
I always stay with the same manufacturer for parts that play together. Thanks for making this video and thank you for your time. I'll try to get off my lazy butt and inventory my cams.
Nobody that manufactures cams also manufactures lifters , so thats a moot point
@@powellmachineinc3179 According to my receipt my custom billet crank, billet rods, billet hydraulic roller cam and hydraulic roller lifters for my I6 292 all came from Crower. Now that I have changed to a Ryan Falconer V-12 head I will need a new cam. The valves are in a different order. I'll be running 1000 HP or more so won't I want a solid roller cam and lifter?. Maybe you can help me out with that when the time comes?
@Lazy Hound Racing possibly, shoot me a print and im happyto qouteit, we are in the beginning stages of manufacturing billet cores in house, but crower doesn't make flat lifters, they don't make roller lifters either as far as I know, most of the world just reboxs part's
@@powellmachineinc3179 I figured that. They probably just buy them and mark them up. It's warming up here so I will be starting on my chassis soon but I will definitely hit you up when the time comes. I still need to make a deck plate and get someone to weld it onto the block and sleeve it to mount the new head so it will be a while.
Do you suppose the builder of the engine was trying to save money on parts? Improper break in?
Ended up ,we found out they attempted "break in " with full valve spring pressure.....
Ok so it's not a hardness problem. Could it be the metal composition?
Yes, but after further investigation we found the customer tried break in with 350 lbs of open pressure....
@@powellmachineinc3179 so what I'm getting from all this is, the cam companies want everyone to go roller skating (blading) and skip the flat tappets ALL together!?
Pour quality control,,
Just because your steel is hard does not mean it has sufficient structural integrity. I've seen super hard iron crack and splinter before mild steel. The harder steel gets the more brittle it becomes.
Correct that is why after heat treat we temper.
Where can i get yalls lifters?
Powellmachineinc.com
Ive been a mechanic for 35 years. Never have I heard of this happening so frequently. Cams should not be failiing. Perhaps spring pressure too tight/ pushrods too long. What is going on with these failures?
Personally, I would run cam and lifters as a set, not from different manufacturers. Also, the cam core has to be there. It can't be questionable. I don't care what anybody says. In 2023, we can, as a community, get to the bottom of what is going on with flat tappet cams/lifters. I think Powell Machine has come the closest to finding the solution and fully support the engineering company's findings. We have millions of people that still, and always will have vehicles with flat tappets. From antique vehicles in collections to 60s era Hi-PO machines, to NHRA "stock" classes... there are still many, many vehicles that run them and at some point will have to replace FTs upon rebuilding. I'm not going to throw in the towel just yet and say that rollers are the answer. That's giving up. You can't have flat tappets go 100,000 miles one day, and go to the present condition the next. That doesn't make any sense. We will find the answer, and I'm putting my $$$ on Powell Machine. I'm just an individual who welcomes a difficult challenge of problem solving. And my next cam and flat tappet lifters are coming from Powell Machine, regardless of this installment.
ALL lifters and cams are from diffrent manufactures... no cam grinder manufactures lifters
@@powellmachineinc3179 What I meant was, if I was going to get a cam from you, I'd get a 8660 core and doc feet lifters all from your company.
😮
do you have dlc lifters
Part of the problem or maybe all of it is the influx of foreign junk on the market.
The QC is non existent on that stuff. The big cam companies are buying that stuff by the boatloads and selling it as American products. Yeah it’s in an American box but after that it’s yo-yo. Another issue is the lack of quality people to do the machine work. The older guys that give a crap about their work are retiring. This junk is done by either foreign workers (Crower, and others) or people that really don’t give a crap how the work is.
Just Mho.
Big money/ power motor why it got a flat tap. An not roller cam🙄
Class rules
This is obviously a lifter problem concerning materials and processing. I am now going on my 5th try. Over the weekend while researching on You Tube everything points to materials and processing of the lifter. Look at the cutaways of cams and all the rockwell testing. On one video at the end he talks about Diamond Like Coating (DLC). This is a plasma spray of a thin coating that is almost as hard as a diamond and the carbon in it makes it super slippery. According to him and Comp Cams the independent testing showed that no matter how fast the Spintron went and no matter the spring pressure there is now no problem. No break in problems.
I just called Summit Racing, who have been the best dealing with this problem, and am exchanging the normal lifters for a set of the DLC coated lifters. They are about $120/set, not much more than the stock lifters. I will wait another week to finish the job to not have to go through this again. The Comp Cams part # for a big and small block Chevy is SKU 812D-16. How about more of you try this also and let us see what happens in the real world, not the world of incompetence and greed.
The companies that actually do dlc coating charge about 600.00 to coat your lifter, the cam and lifter face must be micro polished, there have been "chipping " issues of the coating and its creating issues, time will tell if a 120.00 lifter set will live, from what I have heard through the grape vine the results haven't been as ur describing. But I hope you have success
You know what there gonna say if they even respond. You need to try and find a independent company that has no interest in the product. Which will cost big bucks am sure. Why you go with a roller and cam so the customer has to blame the cam company and your out of the what happened stuff. Then if something happens it's the customer fault. Nobody want's to take responsibility today. Years ago before roller cams came standard on engines did you see this problem very seldom.
Definitely using a 3rd party
To much zddp can become acidic & actually cause premature wear, just a thought because everyone's so worried about losing a flat tappet cam I wonder if they overdid it on the zddp trying to prevent it
th-cam.com/video/erxjPicpYyw/w-d-xo.htmlsi=49usZ74rKPF0Nwci
BAD CORE AND BAD GRIND
recycle metal is the problem Virgin 01 tool steel is better and stronger than recycled 01 tool steel
I agree 💯
I've noticed in heating treat tool steel for years recycled steel doesn't like heat it will harden just like it should but it doesn't have the
ability to hold up in heat for some reason and the wear resistance is very poor I found heat treating it a couple points harder will help
No such thing as a true high dollar engine w/a flat tappet cam. Stone age shit.
What does that say about the abilities or talents of today's generation that can't make 'stone age shit' work? Seemed fine just a few short decades ago.
@@vincemajestyk9497 Maybe you missed the high dollar part. A true serious effort wouldn't be restricted by an inferior valve train.
@@misterhipster9509 High dollar? Just because you dump a shitpile of cash into it doesn't mean anything, especially nowadays. 'High dollar' doesn't mean high quality. Especially if you don't know your own limitations. Amateur hour. When he says they used 'grooved lifter bores' AND lifters with a flat that says it all. It's one or the other. Thats a big oil leak. I would not groove the bores when you can just grind the lifters in a mag chuck grinder and V block. If you get too much oil you can create an 'oil wedge' and stop rotation. Once they're spinning and broken in extra oil isn't going correct your mistakes. Like I said. Clown show. I feel sorry when they try to find a scapegoat that supplies one part to blame. It's the 'stacking effect'. They made a bunch of mistakes.
@@vincemajestyk9497 The wheel was invented in the 4th millennium BC
@@misterhipster9509 some racing classes MANDATE a flat tappet cam. Anymore brilliant observations?