This is a great example of how the world works today. It's not just the auto parts world. The whole marketplace is cutthroat. Even a wary consumer gets caught by the thieves now and then.
This is how "Hot Rodding" works. I've done this to a race car and to a driver. When they "Think" they have something special the car will "run better"! Same thing happens when they spend $1000 on some super secret, lightweight, heavy duty, cheater part. These guys will swear to be damned that their snake oil works. Don't confuse the buyer/driver with any facts! Love All your videos, especially the ones that expose this crap.
See? They made that cam so super secret squirrel cheater spec, even you couldn't tell the difference. Those Tech Inspectors will never figure it out...🤣
I can promise one thing, I would feel excellent if i ever bought anything from you or had any work done at your shop, your a true human, thanks for this!!!!
Buyer : " Hey , that cam I bought from you aint a cheater cam at all , it's a stocker " . Seller : Of course it is ...send me another 600 bucks and I'll cheat ya again "
Absolute Thievery is everywhere. Being mislead seems to be the theme of the day... everyday unfortunately. GREED is the driving force for all of this misinformation offered on the internet and otherwise. If one chooses to listen...really listen and take to heart what Mr. Daniel shares with us all (you'll make better decisions). He will help to steer you in the right direction. Thanks Mr. Daniel for the honesty and experience you share in your videos. Much appreciated
That’s been my experience buying on the internet. I now google multiple reviews on anyone I buy from. Excellent videos and great explanations of why something is done the way its done.
Even with reviews, you have to be careful. It doesn't cost much to get people to write glowing reviews for a product they have never seen or touched. Shopping online is an absolute last resort for me.
"a degree or a degree and a half one way or the other, nobody is gonna notice" Thats what I said a couple weeks ago and you nicely refuted what I said. I like your channel. Thanks.👍👍
A guy asked for Cheater CAM , SO I guess the salesman thought he wanted to get Cheated on a Cam! LOL DEFINITION OF A GOOD DEAL : IS "WHEN YOU THINK YOU SCREWED THEM AND THEY KNOW THEY SCREWED YOU!" BUYER BEWARE
Over 50 years ago, I had a regrind on a cam by Crane, it was an old Crower casting with not much lift. They made a .620" lift for me. They took the material off of the heal of the cam to get the higher lift. I had it made for a 302" SBC. D-Hot Rod Class.
Even if you are only changing duration you still have to grind the base circle. Just measuring lobe lift and comparing it to a known factory example proved that it was untouched, unless it wasn't a factory finished core.
This Machinist is just awesome and exceptionally informative! He should make a spin off You Tube channel where all he does is bust these new parts scammers without necessarily going into the metallurgy unless it's obvious and necessary. NOW THAT would be beyond excellent content and ratchet up the suspense!... Is it FAKE junk or is it as advertised?
Anyone else find the irony in getting cheated while purchasing an item meant for cheating? It's the snake of Tar Valon. I'm sure at least a couple will get that reference.
They just take stock cams and sort them by duration. The ones that check the highest are the chester and their ones that check low are the stock ones. It's like a 1 or 2 degrees difference if that. Circle track supply is the main culprit
Companies like web cams hard weld the cam and then regrind it. That way, you still have the factory base circle and the added lift and duration. You can tell it's been done that away by the discoloration in the lobes. That cam doesn't look like it has been done that away, but I thought I mentioned it.
This customer wasn't hopping up a hot rod. He was trying to break the rules. The 604 sealed engine class is a "spec" engine. He tried to cheat and got cheated out of $600.
Whats funny is that camshaft is marketed as able to pass a cam doctor inspection. If you profile the lobe how are you going to fool the inspection tool? I've never understood claims like that.
Flat or roller? Not familiar with that one.what the quality on oem lt1 72 hydraulic.i ask as have new gm one made about 10 years ago similar to 151.current gm oem flat hydraulic lifter any good?you got my attention when you meation chatter marks on oem cam.watched your video on flat tappet cam problems.very depressing and informative.
replaced the heater core in dodge truck checked parts house it is $120.00 auto repair was $456.00 and $850,00 labor, the sameone at the interweb $26.00 free shipping it fit perfectly. just shows to go. thanks good video
No professional will do a pain in the butt and expensive job with random parts from the internet. He will use the part least likely to result in a comeback. You most likely where quoted a factory part, and the shop chose that because they have had bad luck with the local NAPA/CarQuest/etc.
Can you imagine if every customer had a cam checker machine and a good set of micrometers and knew how to use them and had all the stock cams specs.......... I reckon there would be thousands of pissed off customers out there............
I had the same suspicion, all I had was a micrometer and a degree wheel and checked out a 602 flat tappet cheater cam and came up with the same numbers as the factory read out(every 10 degrees) plus or minus a pinch, they advertised it would pass tech and make power too. I thought how could it make any more power if it passes tech, this one has the same orange band by the gear as your 604, probably fom the same place sold it. This "cheater" cam cost the guy $365 for a flat tappet hydraulic cam and the last time I bought one from chevy it was $178, now I know why it`s a cheater cam. Took me a couple hours to measure 2 lobes.
I always thought that the whole idea behind a cheater cam, was to leave the actual lobe height the same to the center, and grind down the rest of the cam shaft, (The rest position - valves closed), so that the actual 'follower lift' was greater. Am I wrong? Thanks, Mike
I will stick with my legal 602 crate tile I can drive better then move up to a class with less rules. Most people cheat on things that don't even help them.
Stupod question, perhaps, but has anyone ever heard of a Summit cam being, like out of phase- opening a valve when it shouldn’t, or the timing marks being off? (Mopar 360).
So someone ran an Ad for a "Cheater Cam", bought a stock cam & sent it or something like that? Looks like 100% markup and a great business that POS is in ! And I'd be the type who got screwed but not anymore ! TY
I'm so tired of all the lies/fake stuff... but when I need real parts I'll be asking someone who really knows = you! thanks for the video & posting up !
Wouldn’t grinding the base circle closer to the stock make the cam act larger without altering the overall shape of the cam profile? These guys definitely got ripped off but isn’t base circle grinding an “easy” way to bump a cam’s figures without it being overly obvious?
I'll never understand why people buy a crate/spec sealed engine just to cheat it up or mess with it ... I can see if you aren't running it in a sanctioned 604 crate series I suppose. but if you are what's the point...you'll just get caught and disqualified and depending on series your engine confiscated 🤷
For those who are number geeks this is what I found for the spects of this cam. Hydraulic roller Small Block Chevy 350 ZZ3 & ZZ4. Adv. Duration, Int 275, Exh 280. Duration at .050" lift, Int 208, Exh 221 Lobe lift, Int .316" Exh .340" Lift at valve with 1.5:1 rocker ratio, Int .475" Exh .510" Valve lash is zero/zero and lobe centerline is 112.
I mean everyone pushes the limits of the rules in racing. I mean I thought the whole point of "602" "604" was supose to even the playing field on the engines.
Why would the guy have it checked if he bought it as a cheater cam. I’d assume he knew the specs when he bought it. Or is the dark world of circle track? Lol
I would order a cam kit from you or a well known cam company by phone not online. But then again I would have you machine and build my engine. Ever thought 'bout investing in an engine dynomitor?😊
The problem becomes it's a spec cam if you're running a class that requires a 604 crate engine. There's not going to be much you can do and have it still be legal. You'd have to look up the specs in the rules and basically if it's outside those specs then it's a cheater cam.
And this is what makes crate classes suck. People will sell their soul to buy blueprinted parts and cheater parts. Just tech the winners for the most part just pull the intake and a head. That allows you to profile the cam, check chamber volume, port volume, valve size, pop up, bore size and stroke length. Any argument against this type of tech is usually by the cheaters or the naive, oh it'll cost so much to have my engine builder put it back together, nobody wants to be at the track all night getting teched... WTF are you doing racing circle track if you can't install a head, pushrods, intake manifold, distributor and set valves? The government needs to issue man cards that can be suspended and revoked.... We spent years racing flathead karts to WKA tech specs and heard the same anti tech rhetoric from racers that came to the track with a paid tire expert, their nationally known engine builder, and a set up guy from their chassis maker...Of course I've also seen tears when those teams get tossed in tech or simply forfeit a win when the tech shed opened somewhat unexpectedly. There was a decent money race on an otherwise quiet weekend in the area and the track had posted tech would be done. But it was noticed on race day that the tech inspector wasn't there and the pre race safety tech lady said the tech inspector couldn't be there at all, wasn't coming. Well he showed up during the money feature and was at the scale house when the drivers came off track. The winner packed up and left before 2nd place even got their head off, forfeiting $500. At the time most engine builders only charged $50-$75 to reassemble a teched engine, and UPS would move an engine from Pennsylvania to North Carolina for $30. But this guy's engine builder was local and with him. In my time with full size cars we ran some super late models, limited late models, 410 sprints, 360 iron head sprints, pure stocks, street stocks, and claimer emods. Tech was always a joke and the tech guys were usually the engine builders for the tracks hot shoe in one class or another and when the sealed classes came along they were usually under the supervision of these same builders. Not exactly confidence inspiring. And it's amazing that cheater engines often get sold complete. I looked at a used 604 for my street car and either the seller was BS'ing me or it was extremely cheated up, I knew who he was and what he raced but he doesn't know me. But I do have a friend who races with him. I Didn't buy the engine because he wanted to much money for a used 400hp SBC, and he wouldn't break the seals.
wow be nice see a fresh stock cam out box for comparison only reason say a Polish slight smaller than your other cam in comparison so they paid 300 more to get less of a cam just wow@@powellmachineinc
This is a great example of how the world works today. It's not just the auto parts world. The whole marketplace is cutthroat. Even a wary consumer gets caught by the thieves now and then.
Unfortunately
One of those "placebo" cams. If driver thinks they have cheater advantages, they drive harder. LOL
Absolutely
They go faster because they aren't dragging all that money around....
This is how "Hot Rodding" works. I've done this to a race car and to a driver. When they "Think" they have something special the car will "run better"! Same thing happens when they spend $1000 on some super secret, lightweight, heavy duty, cheater part. These guys will swear to be damned that their snake oil works. Don't confuse the buyer/driver with any facts! Love All your videos, especially the ones that expose this crap.
See? They made that cam so super secret squirrel cheater spec, even you couldn't tell the difference. Those Tech Inspectors will never figure it out...🤣
Lol
Lol
I can promise one thing, I would feel excellent if i ever bought anything from you or had any work done at your shop, your a true human, thanks for this!!!!
I appreciate that!
Cheated the cheater
Yup
Lol
And I'm glad to see it!
😂😂😂
Whooda thunk it
Man the scumbags just don't stop. Thank you for the heads up. Honesty seems to be lost these days and it really sucks!
Absolutely 💯
Thank you for having our backs and keeping us informed of these situations.
Our pleasure!
Buyer : " Hey , that cam I bought from you aint a cheater cam at all , it's a stocker " . Seller : Of course it is ...send me another 600 bucks and I'll cheat ya again "
Just because it's expensive doesn't mean you get what you're paying for!
Facts
if you try to cheat in a class of racing i would call this a**hole tax. just play by the rules. great video as always
💯
Well, the cam seller is just doing their best to keep the racing honest!
💯 lol
Wow! So grateful there are so many honest people in the automotive marketplace! smh
Yup
Absolute Thievery is everywhere. Being mislead seems to be the theme of the day... everyday unfortunately. GREED is the driving force for all of this misinformation offered on the internet and otherwise. If one chooses to listen...really listen and take to heart what Mr. Daniel shares with us all (you'll make better decisions). He will help to steer you in the right direction. Thanks Mr. Daniel for the honesty and experience you share in your videos. Much appreciated
@@tracyamcneal9597 💯
Old Mr. Webster defines “grind” as “reduce.”
That’s been my experience buying on the internet. I now google multiple reviews on anyone I buy from. Excellent videos and great explanations of why something is done the way its done.
Glad it was helpful!
Even with reviews, you have to be careful. It doesn't cost much to get people to write glowing reviews for a product they have never seen or touched. Shopping online is an absolute last resort for me.
@@--_DJ_-- Absolutely agree!
"a degree or a degree and a half one way or the other, nobody is gonna notice"
Thats what I said a couple weeks ago and you nicely refuted what I said.
I like your channel. Thanks.👍👍
A guy asked for Cheater CAM , SO I guess the salesman thought he wanted to get Cheated on a Cam! LOL
DEFINITION OF A GOOD DEAL : IS "WHEN YOU THINK YOU SCREWED THEM AND THEY KNOW THEY SCREWED YOU!"
BUYER BEWARE
Oconee/Westminster here. I've watched several of your videos. If I get back into classic cars... I'll definitely be one of your customers
Ty
Over 50 years ago, I had a regrind on a cam by Crane, it was an old Crower casting with not much lift. They made a .620" lift for me. They took the material off of the heal of the cam to get the higher lift. I had it made for a 302" SBC. D-Hot Rod Class.
Yep, that's the only way it can be done
Even if you are only changing duration you still have to grind the base circle. Just measuring lobe lift and comparing it to a known factory example proved that it was untouched, unless it wasn't a factory finished core.
This Machinist is just awesome and exceptionally informative! He should make a spin off You Tube channel where all he does is bust these new parts scammers without necessarily going into the metallurgy unless it's obvious and necessary. NOW THAT would be beyond excellent content and ratchet up the suspense!... Is it FAKE junk or is it as advertised?
Anything is possible!
If it walks like a duck quacks like a duck it must be a duck
Yup
Anyone else find the irony in getting cheated while purchasing an item meant for cheating? It's the snake of Tar Valon. I'm sure at least a couple will get that reference.
Thank you Mr. Powell and be sure to thank Bob for me as well.
Will do
They just take stock cams and sort them by duration. The ones that check the highest are the chester and their ones that check low are the stock ones. It's like a 1 or 2 degrees difference if that. Circle track supply is the main culprit
That sounds right
Guy will still claim it's super secret and his engine makes 1000hp with the class limited carb and intake.
Companies like web cams hard weld the cam and then regrind it. That way, you still have the factory base circle and the added lift and duration. You can tell it's been done that away by the discoloration in the lobes. That cam doesn't look like it has been done that away, but I thought I mentioned it.
Yes, I'm aware, but it's cost prohibited and its a visual for tech
Blows my mind how people prey upon guys who want to hop up their Hot Rod. Thank you for your service.
This customer wasn't hopping up a hot rod. He was trying to break the rules. The 604 sealed engine class is a "spec" engine. He tried to cheat and got cheated out of $600.
Is this the same Powell that used to little Honda XR stroker stuff? If so, I can't believe your video was recommended to me! What a find lol
No, we pretty much on do pushrod v8's mainly Ls
Whats funny is that camshaft is marketed as able to pass a cam doctor inspection. If you profile the lobe how are you going to fool the inspection tool? I've never understood claims like that.
There is a tolerance and we put them to the limits of that tolerance, that's how it works
Wow, he got ripped.
If I don't know you, you're not getting my money.
💯
Flat or roller? Not familiar with that one.what the quality on oem lt1 72 hydraulic.i ask as have new gm one made about 10 years ago similar to 151.current gm oem flat hydraulic lifter any good?you got my attention when you meation chatter marks on oem cam.watched your video on flat tappet cam problems.very depressing and informative.
Roller
Thanks
Brother, you really need to run for President!! I’ve never heard Bullshit and you’re highly trusted!!
Tyvm!!
Customer learned a lesson I hope. Always check new parts.
Definitely
replaced the heater core in dodge truck checked parts house it is $120.00 auto repair was $456.00 and $850,00 labor, the sameone at the interweb $26.00 free shipping it fit perfectly. just shows to go. thanks good video
💯
shops have to make money
No professional will do a pain in the butt and expensive job with random parts from the internet. He will use the part least likely to result in a comeback.
You most likely where quoted a factory part, and the shop chose that because they have had bad luck with the local NAPA/CarQuest/etc.
@@joshua43214that’s no joke, the aftermarket heater cores are junk
Can you imagine if every customer had a cam checker machine and a good set of micrometers and knew how to use them and had all the stock cams specs..........
I reckon there would be thousands of pissed off customers out there............
I had the same suspicion, all I had was a micrometer and a degree wheel and checked out a 602 flat tappet cheater cam and came up with the same numbers as the factory read out(every 10 degrees) plus or minus a pinch, they advertised it would pass tech and make power too. I thought how could it make any more power if it passes tech, this one has the same orange band by the gear as your 604, probably fom the same place sold it. This "cheater" cam cost the guy $365 for a flat tappet hydraulic cam and the last time I bought one from chevy it was $178, now I know why it`s a cheater cam. Took me a couple hours to measure 2 lobes.
I always thought that the whole idea behind a cheater cam, was to leave the actual lobe height the same to the center, and grind down the rest of the cam shaft, (The rest position - valves closed), so that the actual 'follower lift' was greater. Am I wrong? Thanks, Mike
Yes, ur wrong
Did you do a Rockwell test on that "cheater cam"? Maybe it's made out of Unobtainium
That’s what you get for cheating.
I will stick with my legal 602 crate tile I can drive better then move up to a class with less rules. Most people cheat on things that don't even help them.
Awesome information!
Glad it was helpful!
Who new machine shop drama would be so entertaining 😂
Absolutely
Stupod question, perhaps, but has anyone ever heard of a Summit cam being, like out of phase- opening a valve when it shouldn’t, or the timing marks being off? (Mopar 360).
Well....it is summit
Had a summit cam where the locating dowel didn't stick out far enough to locate the cam gear
So someone ran an Ad for a "Cheater Cam", bought a stock cam & sent it or something like that? Looks like 100% markup
and a great business that POS is in ! And I'd be the type who got screwed but not anymore ! TY
No, this is a very large supply house that sells these
I'm so tired of all the lies/fake stuff... but when I need real parts I'll be asking someone who really knows = you!
thanks for the video & posting up !
The online demon strikes again.
Maybe the extra cost was to compensate for the lie or sales pitch.
Lol
same way in the Harley world good show
Ty
I think its called false economics.....probably screw up your lifters as well
If there is a way, people will find a way to cheat. Very sad in my opinion.
Yup
I’m sure it’s just a case of the seller grabbing the wrong cam ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, 😂😂😂
Right
Someone is getting took, cheater getting cheated 😂
Yup
Wouldn’t grinding the base circle closer to the stock make the cam act larger without altering the overall shape of the cam profile? These guys definitely got ripped off but isn’t base circle grinding an “easy” way to bump a cam’s figures without it being overly obvious?
You can't just grind the bc
The rusty engine I would keep the Pistons they are new. You might use them
Good vid. buyer beware, always.
Absolutely!
I have no idea about engines but I do enjoy watching the video. I feel like you have a lot of repeating business just off your work ethics.
Thank you!
So moral of the story is don’t cheat!
What did (will) the customer do about it. I'd like to hear the end of the story, or is this it?
Return for a refund
@@powellmachineinc that's good news! Thanks for the reply.
tig weld over the lobes regrind ext ext..... ive seen this done with a couple audi cams that end up destroying the tips of the lobes on the camshafts
Let the buyer beware.
100
I'll never understand why people buy a crate/spec sealed engine just to cheat it up or mess with it ... I can see if you aren't running it in a sanctioned 604 crate series I suppose. but if you are what's the point...you'll just get caught and disqualified and depending on series your engine confiscated 🤷
Why? To be competitive with all the rest who are cheating
For those who are number geeks this is what I found for the spects of this cam.
Hydraulic roller Small Block Chevy 350 ZZ3 & ZZ4.
Adv. Duration,
Int 275, Exh 280.
Duration at .050" lift,
Int 208, Exh 221
Lobe lift,
Int .316" Exh .340"
Lift at valve with 1.5:1 rocker ratio,
Int .475" Exh .510"
Valve lash is zero/zero and lobe centerline is 112.
That is correct
Zz4 cam is a great street cam imo
I always wondered how a reground cam could get more lift and duration...
I have a video or 2 on that
Thank you for your knowledge and video's USA 🇺🇸 USA 🇺🇸
Thanks for watching!
More, rip offs! Expensive, at that!
I mean everyone pushes the limits of the rules in racing. I mean I thought the whole point of "602" "604" was supose to even the playing field on the engines.
Hey I've seen "performance" cams that lose power so maybe we can at least appreciate he's just where he started
People who have been cheated are now selling “cheater” cams….classic!
Can you grind single cylinder motorcycle cams?
What's the Ramp on the Base Circle.
The question is nonsensical, can you ask a different way?
I hope he got a refund
What are the hardness differences?
None
Why would the guy have it checked if he bought it as a cheater cam. I’d assume he knew the specs when he bought it. Or is the dark world of circle track? Lol
The company supplied no specs or paperwork
David Vizard will teach you cam design the cam manufacturers dont want you to know
Lol
How do you check duration in vee blocks? Lift yes. Duration, no.
Lol, ....we didn't check either in these v blocks....
I would order a cam kit from you or a well known cam company by phone not online. But then again I would have you machine and build my engine. Ever thought 'bout investing in an engine dynomitor?😊
Well yea it is a cheater cam, it is a cheater da customer right out of their money cam!
Lol
I hope the owner of that cam will post the name of scoundrel that sold him that cam and as proof link to your video
I’ve read about cheater cams that were twisted to advance or retard them. Was this possibly the case on this cam?
buyer beware.
Truth in advertising
Yup
Bottom line. Don't be stupid about the stuff you buy. Because you can't fix stupid, unfortunately
IT's a real cheater cam, the person who brought it got cheated.
Lol
Maybe it identifies as a cheater cam? lol
Could be
What should the numbers be for a cheater camp
The problem becomes it's a spec cam if you're running a class that requires a 604 crate engine. There's not going to be much you can do and have it still be legal. You'd have to look up the specs in the rules and basically if it's outside those specs then it's a cheater cam.
And this is what makes crate classes suck. People will sell their soul to buy blueprinted parts and cheater parts. Just tech the winners for the most part just pull the intake and a head. That allows you to profile the cam, check chamber volume, port volume, valve size, pop up, bore size and stroke length. Any argument against this type of tech is usually by the cheaters or the naive, oh it'll cost so much to have my engine builder put it back together, nobody wants to be at the track all night getting teched... WTF are you doing racing circle track if you can't install a head, pushrods, intake manifold, distributor and set valves? The government needs to issue man cards that can be suspended and revoked....
We spent years racing flathead karts to WKA tech specs and heard the same anti tech rhetoric from racers that came to the track with a paid tire expert, their nationally known engine builder, and a set up guy from their chassis maker...Of course I've also seen tears when those teams get tossed in tech or simply forfeit a win when the tech shed opened somewhat unexpectedly.
There was a decent money race on an otherwise quiet weekend in the area and the track had posted tech would be done. But it was noticed on race day that the tech inspector wasn't there and the pre race safety tech lady said the tech inspector couldn't be there at all, wasn't coming. Well he showed up during the money feature and was at the scale house when the drivers came off track. The winner packed up and left before 2nd place even got their head off, forfeiting $500. At the time most engine builders only charged $50-$75 to reassemble a teched engine, and UPS would move an engine from Pennsylvania to North Carolina for $30. But this guy's engine builder was local and with him.
In my time with full size cars we ran some super late models, limited late models, 410 sprints, 360 iron head sprints, pure stocks, street stocks, and claimer emods. Tech was always a joke and the tech guys were usually the engine builders for the tracks hot shoe in one class or another and when the sealed classes came along they were usually under the supervision of these same builders. Not exactly confidence inspiring. And it's amazing that cheater engines often get sold complete. I looked at a used 604 for my street car and either the seller was BS'ing me or it was extremely cheated up, I knew who he was and what he raced but he doesn't know me. But I do have a friend who races with him. I Didn't buy the engine because he wanted to much money for a used 400hp SBC, and he wouldn't break the seals.
Sounds and look like they just gave it a Polish and made it look pretty and tacked on a few more $100 bucks
They didn't touch it and added 300.00
wow be nice see a fresh stock cam out box for comparison only reason say a Polish slight smaller than your other cam in comparison so they paid 300 more to get less of a cam just wow@@powellmachineinc
😂😂 👍🏼. Keep with this honest job , in todays " performance world" is full of Dus_' bags , and BS , from BIG and small companys .
Great week 🍺
Watch at 1.25x speed.
Karma
Caveat emptor.