Stellar job for sure. Now, we need to get you an optical comparator. Actually, you can find them at machinery auctions every now and then and lots of people want to just get rid of them. You would be able to nail the angles AND have an actual view of the angles and be able to accurately measure and view them for engagement without having to mess with the pocket microscope. You'd even be able to put your frame on the table and accurately create a template of the pin locations so you can translate that to a jig. of course, assuming that you have the space... OR nab a digital table microscope - under $100 for a real decent one. I use one for looking at the edges of carbide inserts I use in the lathe and mill. Some have basic measurement abilities built into their interface and all have the ability to take snapshots. OR at minimum, get one of those transparency projectors that we used to have in school back in the 80's and 90's. Thats the poor mans comparator right there!
There is a big old optical comparator stuffed away somewhere at my work. It was used for comparing the form of large diameter 7/45 buttress threads. Pretty cool. In other lab work I have used AmScope USB microscop cameras and their software with calibration slides to measure micron level feaures. I first have improvements to make to my sear and hammer jig - get the pin hole tightened up. I plan on doing that this weekend. Since then I have used the calibration slide to create a calibration file for my image processing software at 20X mangnification. I can now just directly take measurements in the software. Its better than laying the sear and hammer on the calibration slide and trying to get the focus right. Next week I hope to revisit the trigger job i did on my MAC9 DS. I'll likely make an inspection and analysis video that also includes these new methods.
Thank you for the attention to detail and your vocabulary. I’m not a gunsmith either but nobody else touches my triggers and I don’t touch anybody else’s. The next time someone asks me to do a trigger job for them, instead of just saying no, I will refer them to this video. If it looks like they will actually attempt it, I will loan them one of Jerry’s books and my tools and stand looking over their shoulder. Hoping to find a young fellow to pass my skills on to. I will soon be 80 and my hands aren’t as strong as they used to be.
@lornemarr a trigger job on a 1911 can be a very detailed task! That would be cool to pass that knowledge along to someone else! I wish I had someone watching over me use their tools as I learned.
Thank You for sharing this lengthy endeavor with us. It's amazing how some guys will openly admit "I'm not a Gunsmith", yet the depth of their understanding of the topic, and the quality of their work, far exceeds that of so many ham-fisted, sausage-fingered mooks who have the "credentials" hanging on their wall.
Fellow engineer armorer here. I also work in oil and gas and delt with my fair share of standard and premium threaded connections. Just wanted to say keep up the good work. This video was detailed and concise.
Dump your jig for final fitting. Mount hammer/sear on outside of your pistol frame and go from there for final fit on the actual pistol. Excellent video. I use gauge pins to pass through both sides of the frame for stability.
Yeah I will probably machine some right tolerance extra long sear and hammer pins. Will likely need another fixture to hold my microscope above the pistol frame.
You don’t need extra long pins, just put your pistol on its side and set the hammer, sear and disconnect on the side of the pistol using the hammer and sear pin. That way you know for shure. Great video I’ll be saving it for future reference. Thank you.
@@michaelmccleskey5176 Extra long pins that engage both sides of the frame will give a tighter fit and better idea of the sear and hammer interface. Also, on doublestack 1911 frames, there is a raised area where the grip module attaches right next to the sear pin hole so the factory sear pin cannot be used. The pins would have to be specially machined to raise the sear and hammer above the wider frame suface.
I have been waiting for this. What you have is exactly what I found to be safe years ago. I have never in 45 years been able to make a safe and light 2 lb trigger pull without a very minute amount of creep. To make it 100% reliable it has to be there in the 1911. In addition to this and in order to maintain the hammer and sear angle you have carefully created the hammer must be stoned across its top as to not over cock when the slide come rearward. If there is an over cocking of the hammer it will beat that perfect sear angle away and batter the face of the sear. No one mentions or addresses this in any videos that I have seen.
@@five-oonsene545 I consistently make 1.5# triggers for competition pistols all the time. No hammer follow, and any “creep” is mitigated / ignored due to how light the trigger pull is. A 15 thou creep on a 3lb trigger feels entirely different than a 15 thou creep on a 1.5lb trigger.
safe engagement means there is overlap - or engagement distance of the hooks onto the sear face. This creates creep - a truly "zero creep" trigger is extremely unsafe. The 12.5 thou of creep on this one is not noticeable to me when shooting the pistol. Trigger feels very crisp and it is safe.
For referencing the actual sear and hammer hook engagement to the actual pistol, you can take the grips off and place the sear and hammer on top of the frame and use the actual sear and hammer holes and pins for the pistol, getting accurate engagement for that pistol vs a jig. Hope this makes sense.
Ah yeah I was thinking I may machine me an extra tight tolerance longer set of pins to make this easier. Little more difficult to use the microscope with but I could design a new fixture. Always room for learning and improvement!
@@EngineersArmory regardless of how tight a jig is, it most likely will never “match up” exactly to the actual pistol and pins for each trigger job. But, nothing like a good machined jig either, but using the actual pistol will get you the most accurate results. Having a super accurate jig to get you “close enough” would be more repeatable and efficient than messing with a pistol frame each time. Great video production. Thank you!
Good shit brother! I hope some of these 1911 newbies that are buying up all the new budget 2011’s will watch your videos so they can actually learn about their tool. You don’t buy a 50,000 dollar car and NOT know how to check or change the oil, just like you don’t buy a new gun platform without knowing how it works 🤦🏻♂️ and yes! That does include knowing about your internal ignition parts and how they work. You’re truly a wealth of much needed knowledge. Nobody else gets down to the real nitty gritty like you do 💯
What I really hope with people getting into this platform is that they realize you cant just swap springs and components all willy nilly. You cant drop in a new sear spring, you cant drop in a trigger, you cant drop in a new sear and hammer. It all needs inspected and fit to the gun. If you don't, or dont do it correctly, then it may be dangerous. Not saying people shouldnt tinker on them and learn all that, but hopefully have a better idea what they are getting into on the front end, be ready to invest some time, ruin and replace some parts, and make sure to do safety and function checks before using the pistol again.
Great information! You have brought many skills into this presentation. I like to say. "i like learning something new every day" This is the same philosophy I look for in every Gun Smith that touches my 1911's. I find this another level to go to...Garage Smithing. I can detail strip replace springs and small parts. But doing heart surgery on a 1911.....Golf Clap.
I was thinking about your comment on being unable to determine the exact spacing of the sear and hammer pins in the handgun frame. When I worked in a quartz glass shop and we had features we needed to measure in an awkward location we used a two part silicone putty called Blue Goo & once cured would cut useful slices to measure with an optical comparitor. It might be useful to have a jig with a locking micrometer barrel to dial in matching relationship as measured in the handgun frame.
Ah yeah the putty is a helpful tool for 1911s. I have since bought some gage pins and find the ones that fit the holes in the frame the best (it can vary slightly from frame to frame), then measure across the pins with micrometers and subtract half the diameter of each pin. This gives me a very good idea (accurate to maybe .0002") - and I can measure along the length of the pins to get an idea of parallelism. Easier on single stack 1911 frames that dont have the wider area for the doublestack grip module.
When the math teacher said show your work, bro said you will understand the meaning of regret. 😂😂😂 great video i like the format. Just giving you crap.
A lot of effort went into this video and it shows. Nicely done. All my competition triggers I work to get them to 1.75-2 lbs. It takes a lot of careful work to get them there and your video nicely shows what it takes. I enjoyed it, thank you.
I’m glad people like you exist because I would never have the patience to make a computer model and then put together a video like this. Feels like a college math/physics/engineering class, which is beyond my capabilities as a lawyer. But I love the detail your channel provides.
As always, this is a really impressive, extremely well made and very thoughtful video. There's a ton of information to gleam from here. Thanks for the video!
Well done! People will be using this video as a reference for years to come. I took similar photos of my hammer and sear engagement after doing my first ever trigger job. I just had to see what the angles looked like. Although, I didn't do nearly the in-depth analysis that you did. I've been using the gun in competitions with excellent results.
Excellent video. I've been watching a few in the past few weeks getting acquainted with the 1911 before starting on the MAC 9. Yes, you really got into the bushes on this one, but love the detail, explanation, and drawings. Thanks for sharing, Ken
I'm always trying to get more "creep" 😂 In the bullseye world we call it "roll," and "creep" is more like grittiness in that felt sear engagement. I did a trigger where I extended the hammer hooks out from .025" to .030 by essentially undercutting it with a safe edge file and not including the secondary angle on the sear and I have so much creep (roll) and feedback from the trigger, it's just about ideal. And I never did the math on it but it absolutely does feel like a 1:1 relationship between sear engagement and creep, or "roll" in my testing through very wide sear engagement to very narrow.
Its interesting that you want creep/roll for bullseye shooting but i guess that makes sense the more I think about it. It seems maybe the TR sear would be best for that? The more research I have done, and reading comments on this video, it seems the TR sear may produce more of a roll to the break which makes sense. For my purposes I like a nice distinct wall and crisp break - it seems my flat sear face cutting jig may be best for that.
Fantastic video, one of the best on this topic. It would be great to see you take this to the next level. To make more precise measurements you can approximate the installed condition using an inexpensive set of ZZ minus pin gauges (typ. $60 on Amazon) inserted into the frame and mount the parts externally on them, i.e. use the frame as a jig. You can also get an inexpensive (< $100) video microscope which will be much easier to use than the little Carson scope. Using the calibration slide is brilliant, I'm going to get one!
I appreciate the kind words! Good ideas too. I am currently working on improving my process. First I need to fix the loose pinhole on my sear and hammer jig. Well.. I tightenened it up, and that allowed me to more accurately measure its position. Its off in one axis by .027" and the other by .007". S,o I am working on drilling and reaming a new hole in the correct position in relation to the hammer pin hole, then press fitting a drill bushing and using a .1110" Z plug pin gauge. I have developed more accurate measurement methods by taking a picture of the sear and hammer interface thru my microscope. I put the magnification at 20x, and I have measured my calibration slide in my software at 20X to develop a repeatable calibration. Now I can take measurements to about the .001" in my image software. I have leftover gauge pin for the sear, so I will use that in the frame, I will buy the correct gauge pin for the hammer and I can check them outside the frame. Very straight forward on 1911s. On doublestack 1911s, the thicker frame area where the grip module attaches is very close to the sear pin hole so I may have to design and print some 3d spacers to repeatable locate the hammer and sear above that. Thanks for watching, commenting, and chiming in with your ideas and experience!
This is an absolutely wonderful video. I am amazed at how deeply and rigorously you examined this. I too use a microscope (an inexpensive Amscope digital student scope) and will be ordering a calibration slide, which had never occurred to me. I'm a child of the '50s and have been in love with the 1911 ever since I first saw one in John Wayne's hand in an old World War II movie. I bought my first one in about the mid 1970s but I didn't start tinkering with it until the mid 1980s. My understanding of the relationship between the hammer and sear was rudimentary, and my skills were less than that, and the appropriateness of the tools I had available as a car mechanic was nonexistent, resulting in a hammer that would stay back when the slide was racked by hand, but would follow the slide on recoil. I only fired it one time like that. In recent years both my skills and tools have improved and I've given a lot of thought to, and played around a lot with, the 1911 hammer and sear. Most recently, up until I discovered how good the Atlas ignition kits are, I had tried narrowing the sear tip to about .018", so it sat a couple of thousandths below the edge of .020" hammer hooks, and this gave a trigger with minimal creep, and that seems logically safe and passes the safety checks. With the better understanding I have after watching this video, I will be revisiting this on the guns that I have set up this way. I have to say, since I purchased my first Atlas ignition kit I have not hand-tuned anything that I've installed one in. Under magnification the fit and finish of the parts is just too good to mess with. The most I've ever had to do is tweak the sear spring to get the desired trigger pull weight. Thanks for the video.
By the way the information here can be used to apply to pretty much any trigger job and it's interesting how many hammer/sear relationships in different models you notice have sear angles from the factory that actually cock the hammer back as the sear slips off the hammer hooks, which in my opinion, creates the worst feeling in the trigger of any sear angle. It also makes the trigger weight very dependent on hammer spring weight which imois not ideal, but they probably do this more for safety than anything when producing so much volume. Berettas are a great example of this. Anyways sorry to triple post but this is something I'm always trying to explain to people in a way that gets through to them and you've shown it with actually moving visuals
I appreciate the comments, you're contributing good information! I have looked at all the CZ hammer fired trigger systems in detail and they pretty much all have a parallel relationship in the fully cocked position and lift the hammer slightly as they release it. Same with the Beretta and you mentioned. As far as I can tell after all this research is that a trigger *must* have creep to be safe - some creep. creep is the inherent result of hammer to sear engagement depth which is needed for a safe trigger. I am curious to do some more modeling and calculations of trigger creep based on enagement and the trigger mechanism of hinged trigger pistols. With a hinged trigger and its pivot in relation to the triggger bar movement does it produce more or less creep that a 1911? I have a SAO CZ Shadow 2 and that trigger feels better than any 1911 i have felt which is insane to me.
@@EngineersArmory Agree 👍 I have heard of some bullseye smiths who will reduce the hammer hooks as far down as .018". Once they're done with the sear there's probably no more than .005" of sear engagement. I'm of the belief that the only way to get a true crisp trigger on what I would consider "simple" triggers like a 1911 is with that very low, very unsafe amount of sear engagement. But if its only use is bullseye that's mostly not a problem from a safety standpoint. An interesting trigger system is on the SIG P210. My military version must have almost .100" of sear engagement but the act of pulling the trigger through the first stage takes up 98% of that, cocking the hammer back noticeably as you do. From there you only really feel the second stage. It does this by way of a "double pull lever" (direct translation from some indecipherable german word). If you back off the trigger, the hammer goes back and you get full sear engagement again. That double pull lever essentially creates mechanical advantage against the sear engagement so you don't really feel it as you pull through the first stage, then as the DPLever reaches the end of its travel the 2nd stage feels to me like a 1:1 ratio between trigger travel and sear engagement. I wonder if something like that could be reverse engineered into a 1911. The closest I can get is by maxing out spring pressure on the pre travel.
@@JaredAF oh that's awesome! There are so many guns I wish I could get my hands on to do inspection and analysis like that. Thanks for the great description of that system!
I was lucky to go to one of Larry Vickers 1911 courses. So much knowledge passed to his students, great instructor. Now my fixture collection is out of control, and growing.
Very impressive video. Been gun smithing since 1991, and you have taken a very scientific approach to an age old modification on 1911's. Your attention to safety is laudable. I recall many years ago when I was learning this, that my master would ask the customer what pound trigger pull would he like. Then take the hammer and sear over to a 1 inch belt sander. Zip zip and he was done. Damned if it wasn't at the weight the customer asked for. He was a magician.
First of all, thank you for sharing your knowledge. I completely agree with your points, and I want to express my admiration. There is one aspect worth considering, and I'm not sure if it can be measured with the same precision as you did with the angles of the sear and the hammer, and that is the amount of pressure that should be applied to the sear spring. Thanks again.
Glad you enjoyed the content! The force applied by the tang of the sear spring onto the sear legs was of course omitted from my 3D model. That model was showing what would happen in theory with different engagment angles. Setting up that spring, the correct contact set, and motion in the basic free version of my modeling software was not an option - believe me i tried. I also didn't want to do motion studies/simulations for each individual set up - video would have taken me another 3 weeks to make. Sear spring tuning also varies wildly with the trigger job, trigger weight, desired trigger feel, the gunsmith doing the trigger job, etc. So it would be really difficult to quantify that, hard to measure too. If i could somehow measure that force insitu, it would be relatively easy to calculate pivot ratios and find the force that translates to at the sear/hammer hook interface. There are very small, flexible, and accurate strain gauges out there that could get the job done - that is very expensive lab grade equipment I dont have access to. What makes a safe hammer hook and sear interface is a delicate balance of engagement angle, engagement depth, sear spring tuning (the left and center leaves), and main spring weight. This video only covered engagement angle and depth of the sear and hammer hooks. Thanks for watching and commenting!
Try doing your slide drop test while stuffing the front of the pistol into something stiff but giving that will press in passed the barrel and sort of catch the slide at the end of it's travel and slow that lockup.
This video is AMAZING, and I LOVE videos like this! However, without prior knowledge to gunsmithing, I find that sometimes I am not too sure about what the parts are or what they actually do. Do you have any further plans to make a video as nerdy as this one but with more explanation of the basics? I would LOVE to watch a video like that!
Umm. I kinda just make videos as they relate to my current 1911 projects. I have some videos in a playlist of technical 1911 content on my channel that cover some of the more basic stuff. There are lots of good videos out there that go over the basics. The manuals I reference in this video can be found in free PDF form on the web, they are a great reference and contain the basics. I don't know that I will make a video about the basic theory and operation of the 1911.
Something often neglected concerning Sears is crowning. I learned about it 20 years ago with regards gears ⚙️ and for which the technology is quite old. Unfortunately it’s largely neglected for guns because of time to implement and manufacturing methods. If you have the tools and skill, the benefit of crowning is reducing the surface area and in turn reducing the friction. Easy analog is the way knife smiths create scribe lines to approach true center of the blade and gradually file or polish or grind and smooth radius or approximate radius (by hand). Note: this must be very subtle, approximately .001-.004 as to not weaken significantly the integrity of the sear shelf. Technically only one surface (external is easiest) needs the crown. This technique is also used on the under belly of the AK Bolt Carrier to reduce friction as it travels over the hammer during reset but on a larger scale with less concern for tolerance of crown.
I may be misunderstanding what you mean by "crown." I am interpreting it as a slight radius on the primary face of the sear like the True Radius sear geometry. Is it different from that?
Thank you for making this! Excellent video. I am learning to do my own triggers and love the nerdy detail. I went with a TR jig to start with and I feel very vindicated in my choice. If you ever wanted to borrow the jig for a couple weeks to fit some long sears and play around with it, I'd send you mine if you cover shipping round trip.
Well done. I made scale models of the hammer and sear. I would like to see atlas does to get a safe under 2 lb trigger pull plus it has to be safe. I have seen the radius sear nose concept discussed. Haven't made up my mind on that one. I agree the kuenhausen books are excellent. Thanks for taking the time for this vid.
Great info. Someday discuss if it is anymore dangerous to carry a 1911 fully cocked with safety off compared to carrying a fully cocked striker pistol with no external safety.
I probably wont. Carrying a 1911 with the thumb safety off is more dangerous. in my opinion. 70 series 19111s dont have firing pin safety blocks, all striker fired guns do. I would never carry a gun without a FPSB myself. There are the basic mechanics of the pistols, but a big parts of that conversation would also be subjective due to what people feel comfortable with. Also, if someone were to carry a 1911 with one in th chamber, the hammer cocked, and the thumb safety off, it would make them a damn fool (in my opinion). Its also objectively wrong considering the well defined manual of arms of the 1911.
Copy all. It just seems to me the only difference between the fully cocked external hammer and the fully cocked striker is that you can see one but cant see the other, if that makes sense.
excellent video!!! a couple of tools that might help... Brownells makes BROWNELLS - TRIGGER ADJUSTMENT PINS so you can check the sear engagement on your specific frame... and Brownells/Yavapai 1911 Sear Tool for a microscope but seems your microscope got a good detailed picture of engagement. you can also use a .020 feeler gauge for the hammer hook height... that little screw on the bottom of the ed brown sear jig is related to the angle of the primary sear angle in relation to the 90* hammer hooks...(good to know)
Special pins to check the engagement relationship are the next step if I need more accuracy with my trigger jobs (after I fix my hammer and sear jig). I would just machine my own on the lathe. It would be pretty easy to design and 3d print a fixture to hold my microscope over the sear and hammer in the pistol frame with the extended pins. The microscope I got is more than adequate for my needs. And it was only $13 haha. The fixtures really make the difference though. Which were.... some of my time and maybe $1 in filament. The sear jig I use has more than enough adjustment on the screw to cut sear primary faces to angles what would work with original or modern hammer hook geometry. Thanks for watching and commenting!
@@EngineersArmory harrison designs sells a true radius sear jig if you want the “roll “ trigger break instead of the wall …you could start out with a EGW long sear… having a microscope to check engagement really is key .. awesome channel I’m watching the polishing video right now
@@strangisproductions I am curious about the true radius sear geometry and how it feels. Might have to buy one in the name of science! Haha. Thanks for watching and commenting. I appreciate the kind words as discussion!
@@strangisproductions that's one of those thing that would take way too much time and effort to do accurately on the manual machines I have access to. And I am an engineer not a machinist haha. I know enough about machining to get the simple tasks I want to do done but that's about it.
I bought a trigger kit from Nowlin that trigger had no geometry. It was completely rounded, and the hammer hooks were .015. I just returned it because it looked unsafe to me.
I am assuming you meant sear instead of trigger ("that trigger had no geometry"). If the sear tip was rounded and the hammer hooks were .015" that sounds extremely unsafe to me. Yikes!
Buy a Junk frame or 80% frame and machine a Cut-away window to view Hammer to Sear engagement. That's what I did and that frame has been invaluable over the past 25 years.
That is certainly one way to do it. Valuable for seeing the whole system working together. My $30 sear and hammer jig is good enough for me. That one frame will vary from every other frame in terms of pin hole location and parallelism just slightly. And that will vary between jigs used as well. If I cant see the exact relationship in every individual pistol, a representation of that relationship is the next best thing. Whether that's in a jig like I have, or another pistol frame. I went with the cheaper route that doesnt require machining a hole in a frame (I didnt have the machining capabilities I have now when I got this sear jig). To each their own though!
You need a small optical comparator. Its used in a machine shop. Ive seen some used on a computer screen where you can measure with different angles and click the image to mark lines
There is a big ass one of those at my work used to compare large diameter thread pitches. Its pretty cool. I have used it to analyze the dimensions of buttress threads which are kinda neat. Not so sure they would be keen on me using it for gun parts haha.
@EngineersArmory we had one that was small and used a computer called a smartscope. Im sure there is a camera system now that incorporates a digital radical on screen for cheap
@@vettepicking Likely! thats pretty cool. I have used relatively cheap USB cameras on microscopes with software installed. You use a calibration slide (as I have shown here) to calibrate the measurement in the software, then for a given zoom level can take whatever measurements you need. Kind of similar to the method I showed here with my image processing software. I should actually try that. just use my calibration slide at 20X to set a calibration in my image processing software so i can just upload the picture then direcly measure what I want with more accuracy. Thanks for the good idea! haha
Polishing removes metal by nature. Fine polishing removes very little. Not enough in this case to affect the sear and hammer relationship. I get what youre saying though. I cut the sear with a medium/fine stone on my jig, then polish with a fine stone in the jig. If you want to take it a step further than that check out this video: th-cam.com/video/Cdyo6eVe5Mg/w-d-xo.htmlsi=LT7Xhyh6yINJCoew
I have always wondered why a competition sear is not cut with a convex tip, with a radius equal to the distance between the tip and the center of the pivot pin.
In more research after this video it seems the true radius sear geometry is popular with bullseye shooter for a more "rolling break." I prefer a crisp snap, the flat sear face seems to be better for that. A lot of trigger feel is largely subjective. Just depends on what ya like.
I think all your diagrams and their implications would be far more clear if you included the pivot point and a perpendicular line at the point of contact - the perpendicular on one side of the pivot, safe, the other side, unsafe. You got close to this when you described the true sear with the circular radius - all perpendicular lines through the pivot..
I like that idea. Hadn't thought of it. Simple enough with the static diagrams. There isnt a way that I know of in the software I use to constrain a sketch to a component or contact interface while I move it dynamically.
Nope. I mean i cant remember what the trigger was like in detail when I bought the pistol. I recently re did the trigger job on this one, to fix one that I did a few years ago when I didnt have as much experience (it was pretty bad). I did the trigger initially becuase I wanted to start learning how to do it. My dad has a stock kimber that was about $1000 like... 15 years ago? I recently checked out the trigger and it wasnt how I would want it. Lots of creep, heavy, too much take up, overtravel not adjusted properly. I said "not how i would want it" becuase of course trigger feel is largely subjective.
Some cheap ass one I got off ebay years ago. Wouldnt recommend. I am in the process of fixing it right now. If i were to do this again I would recommend this one: www.brownells.com/tools-cleaning/gun-tools/handgun-tools/yavapai-1911-sear-tool/
Out of curiosity, what would happen if the sear was perfectly round instead of a parallel flat engagement and secondary angle (enhanced TR/Warner)? You could change the size of the sear circumference to get enough engagement where the sear contacts both the hammer hook and where the secondary angle would make contact with the hammer
I think I understand what you're asking. As I have it shown here the TR/Warner sear does not have a secondary angle. I omitted that for clarity. Usually that sear tip profile would also have the secondary angle cut to adjust hammer hook engagement. You would want the arc of the primary face to always be part of the circle made by the tip if it circled around its pivot pin. If that radius was different (that arc was part of a different sized circle) that would result in the hammer being lifted or dropped as the sear pivoted forward. This would no longer be a "true neutral" relationship. I hope that answers your question. If I misunderstood it please feel free to correct me.
@@EngineersArmory That makes sense thanks for elaborating! I love learning about tuning handguns, I'm a gunsmith that runs a private shop in my spare time and I have the personal range to test modifications on firearms so live fire testing is free lol. I got bored tuning/troubleshooting glock platform handguns so I'm switching to series 70 1911/2011s. Another question, what affect does notching the hammer hook or sear have? I see that in some of the handguns I service. That modification keeps the same contact angle and engagement but lessens the amount of material to contact the hammer hook.
@@EngineersArmory if you use the picture of the sear in the top left at 3:09 and the picture of the hammer in the top right of 3:28 as a reference, that vertical line down the middle of both parts is where a notch is made at the hammer hook tip and sear tip using a file, dremel or similar tool. The engagement angle and amount of engagement remains the same with less surface area contact.
@@SuspiciousGanymede Still unclear what you're asking. The notch out of the center of the hammer and sear? The sear is split like that because the disconnector rides in it. The hammer is split so the hammer hooks contact the outside 1/3rd of the sear face, if it falls to the safety catch, the safety catch will damage the sear face. The safety catch hook generally only contacts the center of the sear face so it doesn't damage the area the hammer hooks contact. If the sear has a notch in the center of its engagement face, that is usually because the hammer has dropped to its safety catch and damaged that area. Not sure if thats what you're referring to?
Lay the pistol on its side. Lay hammer and sear on the side of the pistol - on the exterior of the frame. Insert hammer and sear pins through the hammer and sear, into the pin holes in the frame. Voila! You now have a jig.
Thats one way to do it. Problem with that is now your hammer and sear pins are only engaged in one side of the frame holes - meaning they will be looser and the view of the sear and hammer engagement less accurate. Still a good method. At some point I may just machine a tight tolerance set of extra long pins. Then of course I would need to design and 3D print a fixture to hold my new microscope over the frame in the perfect spot haha.
Isn't negative engagement dangerous? As the hammer can work itself towards accidental discharge, like in environment with vibrations or bumps, that cause cause temporary unloading of the hammer on the sear? With positive angle, sear resets itself every time.
Yes. I mention this at 06:24, 06:55, 07:49 - 08:21, 08:55 - 09:05, 10:36, and 12:37... What resets the sear into engagement with the hammer hooks is the left leaf/tang of the sear spring. A positive engagement keeps it pulled into engagement once there. A negative engagement would be likely to push the sear back out of engagement once there. I showed this with my 3D model in the video a couple times.
buy an Extreeme Engineering firing group, so you'll be sure they are properly made and heat treated... some "manufactorers" sourced by them and still use their design but, not everything turns out as it should...
Those are a good option along with the EGW ignition kits, and Atlas perfect match ignition kits (which use EGW components). I want to understand the trigger system in detail, and do this work myself... which is why I do this work myself. Cheaper too than buying a $100+ ignition kit every time I want to do a trigger job on a 1911 style pistol. Also, installing one of those kits may or may not produce a trigger action to my liking, another reason for doing these modifications is dialing in the trigger to my liking.
@ sure, but you can’t do it with MIM parts, and EE parts are not drop in, you have to properly fit them… actually, there are no drop in parts in actual 1911 world, “Mimber” measures are not Colt, Springfield, etc measures, so you always have to fit them to your specific gun, they vary even among the same Manufacturer, and that’s another reason why nowadays 1911’s aren’t suited for general issue… also, the best gunsmiths I know, now use CNC machining for cutting sear and hammer hooks to ensure the best engagement, they eventually use the jigs just for lapping…
@pb1964 you can do it with properly manufactured and heat treated MIM parts. Trigger job just may not last as long, and you wouldnt want a crazy light hair trigger with MIM parts, the engagement likely wouldnt be safe (and work wear even quicker). And yes, each hammer and sear pair will need to he fit to eachother for optimal performance. Agreed, the best way to cut hammer hook and sear geometry is modern CNC equipment.
@ MIM works when the parts are projected from the beginning to be specifically MIM in the role they have to play. They don’t in a 1911 ignition set, slide stop or safeties, unless you intend to use that gun as a range toy or non serious competition and not concerned if some parts fail, as they will fail for sure, without any advice, you won’t see any hair line, they just crack, I’ve seen it dozens of times…
@pb1964 people's acceptance of MIM parts in their pistols will vary with their experience and what they see as appropriate for their application of the pistol. I havent had any major issues with properly manufactured MIM parts and will leave them in my pistols. That's just my expereince. But, I wouldnt carry a 70 series 1911 anyways becuase there is no firing pin safety block. If I were to carry a 1911 to defend my life I agree I would feel more comfortable with billet parts. I dont really have any skin in the game of MIM parts in 1911s hahha
Be careful measuring from pictures and those calibration slides. It's the viewing angles that are a problem. The camera is never perfectly perpendicular and the thickness of the slide causes the same problem. It's very easy to get something very different from reality.
I was showing the pictures just for the video. I dont take pictures then measure from those. I get what you're saying tho. You're thinking of the nitty gritty details which I like! I am very careful to focus on the scale on the galss, and that allows me to see the edge of whatever face is on the glass surface (in contact with the scale) in focus. This way the scale, and whatever I am measuring are in the same focal plane so their scale with respect to eachother wont get skewed. I can't measure the face across its whole length this way obviously, I am making the assumption its width is relatively uniform (atleast within my measurement error) across the length of the face. I can flip the sear or hammer over and measure the width of the opposite edge and assume the width varies linearly across the length of the face. No the scope will never be completely square, but very close. All of this I considered and its why I included that +/- .002" measurement error. Reporting measurement undercertainty as half the smallest division is standard practice in terms of ethical data collection and reporting. I feel its conservative in this case and I am comfortable targeting .002" over my desired minimum value. Since this video I have developed a better way to measure. Take the nice clear picture of the sear and hammer engagement in the jig, with both edges in focus (in the same focal plane), and put that into my image processing software and use a calibration I developed to measure the face widths that way. I feel this is more accurate, yet I still target .002" above my minimum for safety reasons.
The correct term for a person who possesses a good deal of knowledge and expertise on a subject, but has no formal education, training, or certification is “enthusiast.” I am personally a whiskey enthusiast, but some just say I’m a drunk.
Excellent video. I have an idea for you that may improve your results, and prove to be a marketable tool using your methods here. Any way I can email you?
Dont have a "public email" associated with the channel that I can share here. Best way is to DM me on reddit. U/rrppdd4. Can chat/exchange email there.
No I do not. No way to measure these when loaded. Also that is such a light loading for the material any change in geometry would be too small for me to be able to measure.
Thank you for this great video. I too will be re-watching this & some of your other videos. BTW, I noticed no one in the comments referred to you as a "fukin' idiot"!
During normal operation, if the slide is coming forward, it is stripping a round from the magazine and chambering it. This slows down the slide. Without that round there being chambered the slide slams forward much harder, and overtime can batter parts. In the case of a 1911 it will put more stress on the barrel and slide locking lugs, the lower barrel lug, the slide stop cross pin, and barrel link.
Ive got a few videos on p320s already. I like working on hammer fired guns much better. I would recommend the Sig Guy, and SIG MECHANICS youtube channels. They have awesome super technical content on the P320.
The jig instructions will get you there for sure. They have a sear angle adjustment screw standard position called out. It is of course on the conservative side and prioritizes safety. It would cut a positive angle on most sears somewhere between 6-10 degrees more positive than a parallel relationship based on some quick calculations (the standard position is about .020" different than what usually gets me close to a parallel realtionship).
I mentioned pertinent safety checks at 00:31, 19:30-19:52, and 21:45. I mention other safety considerations related to hammer and sear engagement at 06:23, 06:58, 07:49, 12:37, and 14:07. Please go back and watch those parts of the video. Then please consider editing or deleting your comment. I take firearms safety very seriously and always make sure to include pertinent safety information regarding the work I show in my videos. I do not take accusations that I have omitted this information lightly. I clearly have not omitted this information in this video, and I can tell you didn't watch the whole video or pay attention to the content before posting your comment.
This is one of the best videos on Sear Engagement Ive ever seen. The visual demonstrations help a lot.
Being able to play with the 3D models was what helped me to most while I was exploring this.
Stellar job for sure. Now, we need to get you an optical comparator. Actually, you can find them at machinery auctions every now and then and lots of people want to just get rid of them. You would be able to nail the angles AND have an actual view of the angles and be able to accurately measure and view them for engagement without having to mess with the pocket microscope. You'd even be able to put your frame on the table and accurately create a template of the pin locations so you can translate that to a jig. of course, assuming that you have the space...
OR nab a digital table microscope - under $100 for a real decent one. I use one for looking at the edges of carbide inserts I use in the lathe and mill. Some have basic measurement abilities built into their interface and all have the ability to take snapshots.
OR at minimum, get one of those transparency projectors that we used to have in school back in the 80's and 90's. Thats the poor mans comparator right there!
There is a big old optical comparator stuffed away somewhere at my work. It was used for comparing the form of large diameter 7/45 buttress threads. Pretty cool. In other lab work I have used AmScope USB microscop cameras and their software with calibration slides to measure micron level feaures.
I first have improvements to make to my sear and hammer jig - get the pin hole tightened up. I plan on doing that this weekend. Since then I have used the calibration slide to create a calibration file for my image processing software at 20X mangnification. I can now just directly take measurements in the software. Its better than laying the sear and hammer on the calibration slide and trying to get the focus right.
Next week I hope to revisit the trigger job i did on my MAC9 DS. I'll likely make an inspection and analysis video that also includes these new methods.
Thank you for the attention to detail and your vocabulary. I’m not a gunsmith either but nobody else touches my triggers and I don’t touch anybody else’s. The next time someone asks me to do a trigger job for them, instead of just saying no, I will refer them to this video. If it looks like they will actually attempt it, I will loan them one of Jerry’s books and my tools and stand looking over their shoulder. Hoping to find a young fellow to pass my skills on to. I will soon be 80 and my hands aren’t as strong as they used to be.
@lornemarr a trigger job on a 1911 can be a very detailed task! That would be cool to pass that knowledge along to someone else! I wish I had someone watching over me use their tools as I learned.
HAHAHAHA! 9:25 "Weeeeeeeeee!" It's nice to know that deep dives into complicated subjects make even engineers go a little crazy. LOL
Making this video drove me a little batty.
@@EngineersArmory I know the feeling! Haha, thanks for the information and an unexpected laugh.
Yeah I laughed my ass off at that part
Thank You for sharing this lengthy endeavor with us. It's amazing how some guys will openly admit "I'm not a Gunsmith", yet the depth of their understanding of the topic, and the quality of their work, far exceeds that of so many ham-fisted, sausage-fingered mooks who have the "credentials" hanging on their wall.
🤣I appreciate the kind words and the great description of "shade tree" gunsmiffs!
Fellow engineer armorer here. I also work in oil and gas and delt with my fair share of standard and premium threaded connections. Just wanted to say keep up the good work. This video was detailed and concise.
I appreciate the kind words! Thanks so much for watching and commenting!
Machinist in Oil/gas here.
Great videos, man. It's nice to see this kind of technical information
I don't own a 1911 or 2011, but I still love this type of content. Awesome video, bro!
Thanks!
Dump your jig for final fitting. Mount hammer/sear on outside of your pistol frame and go from there for final fit on the actual pistol. Excellent video. I use gauge pins to pass through both sides of the frame for stability.
Yeah I will probably machine some right tolerance extra long sear and hammer pins. Will likely need another fixture to hold my microscope above the pistol frame.
You don’t need extra long pins, just put your pistol on its side and set the hammer, sear and disconnect on the side of the pistol using the hammer and sear pin. That way you know for shure. Great video I’ll be saving it for future reference. Thank you.
@@michaelmccleskey5176 Extra long pins that engage both sides of the frame will give a tighter fit and better idea of the sear and hammer interface. Also, on doublestack 1911 frames, there is a raised area where the grip module attaches right next to the sear pin hole so the factory sear pin cannot be used. The pins would have to be specially machined to raise the sear and hammer above the wider frame suface.
I have been waiting for this. What you have is exactly what I found to be safe years ago. I have never in 45 years been able to make a safe and light 2 lb trigger pull without a very minute amount of creep. To make it 100% reliable it has to be there in the 1911.
In addition to this and in order to maintain the hammer and sear angle you have carefully created the hammer must be stoned across its top as to not over cock when the slide come rearward. If there is an over cocking of the hammer it will beat that perfect sear angle away and batter the face of the sear. No one mentions or addresses this in any videos that I have seen.
@@five-oonsene545 I consistently make 1.5# triggers for competition pistols all the time. No hammer follow, and any “creep” is mitigated / ignored due to how light the trigger pull is. A 15 thou creep on a 3lb trigger feels entirely different than a 15 thou creep on a 1.5lb trigger.
@@aarondbritt I would feel way more comfortable with 15 thou of creep (15 thou of hammer hook engagement) on a trigger that light.
safe engagement means there is overlap - or engagement distance of the hooks onto the sear face. This creates creep - a truly "zero creep" trigger is extremely unsafe. The 12.5 thou of creep on this one is not noticeable to me when shooting the pistol. Trigger feels very crisp and it is safe.
Congrats, this is the best video on the subject and what I've found to be true in my own research and experience.
For referencing the actual sear and hammer hook engagement to the actual pistol, you can take the grips off and place the sear and hammer on top of the frame and use the actual sear and hammer holes and pins for the pistol, getting accurate engagement for that pistol vs a jig. Hope this makes sense.
Ah yeah I was thinking I may machine me an extra tight tolerance longer set of pins to make this easier. Little more difficult to use the microscope with but I could design a new fixture. Always room for learning and improvement!
@@EngineersArmory regardless of how tight a jig is, it most likely will never “match up” exactly to the actual pistol and pins for each trigger job. But, nothing like a good machined jig either, but using the actual pistol will get you the most accurate results. Having a super accurate jig to get you “close enough” would be more repeatable and efficient than messing with a pistol frame each time.
Great video production. Thank you!
Good shit brother! I hope some of these 1911 newbies that are buying up all the new budget 2011’s will watch your videos so they can actually learn about their tool. You don’t buy a 50,000 dollar car and NOT know how to check or change the oil, just like you don’t buy a new gun platform without knowing how it works 🤦🏻♂️ and yes! That does include knowing about your internal ignition parts and how they work. You’re truly a wealth of much needed knowledge. Nobody else gets down to the real nitty gritty like you do 💯
What I really hope with people getting into this platform is that they realize you cant just swap springs and components all willy nilly. You cant drop in a new sear spring, you cant drop in a trigger, you cant drop in a new sear and hammer. It all needs inspected and fit to the gun. If you don't, or dont do it correctly, then it may be dangerous.
Not saying people shouldnt tinker on them and learn all that, but hopefully have a better idea what they are getting into on the front end, be ready to invest some time, ruin and replace some parts, and make sure to do safety and function checks before using the pistol again.
@@EngineersArmory agreed 💯 very well put
Great information! You have brought many skills into this presentation. I like to say. "i like learning something new every day" This is the same philosophy I look for in every Gun Smith that touches my 1911's. I find this another level to go to...Garage Smithing. I can detail strip replace springs and small parts. But doing heart surgery on a 1911.....Golf Clap.
Love this kind of deep diving into a topic and properly geeking about details. Suberb job!
I was thinking about your comment on being unable to determine the exact spacing of the sear and hammer pins in the handgun frame. When I worked in a quartz glass shop and we had features we needed to measure in an awkward location we used a two part silicone putty called Blue Goo & once cured would cut useful slices to measure with an optical comparitor. It might be useful to have a jig with a locking micrometer barrel to dial in matching relationship as measured in the handgun frame.
Ah yeah the putty is a helpful tool for 1911s. I have since bought some gage pins and find the ones that fit the holes in the frame the best (it can vary slightly from frame to frame), then measure across the pins with micrometers and subtract half the diameter of each pin. This gives me a very good idea (accurate to maybe .0002") - and I can measure along the length of the pins to get an idea of parallelism. Easier on single stack 1911 frames that dont have the wider area for the doublestack grip module.
When the math teacher said show your work, bro said you will understand the meaning of regret. 😂😂😂
great video i like the format. Just giving you crap.
Excellent video. I’ve seen all the photos you used on line. This was by far the best and clearest explanation I’ve seen. Wonderful!
A lot of effort went into this video and it shows. Nicely done. All my competition triggers I work to get them to 1.75-2 lbs. It takes a lot of careful work to get them there and your video nicely shows what it takes. I enjoyed it, thank you.
I appreciate the kind words! I'm glad you enjoyed it. Thanks for watching and commenting!
I’m glad people like you exist because I would never have the patience to make a computer model and then put together a video like this. Feels like a college math/physics/engineering class, which is beyond my capabilities as a lawyer. But I love the detail your channel provides.
That was really informative and well presented. Thanks for taking the time to assemble all of that and post it!
My pleasure! thanks for watching and commenting!
As always, this is a really impressive, extremely well made and very thoughtful video. There's a ton of information to gleam from here. Thanks for the video!
Fantastic study of a very “simple” yet critical interface! Good to gory inside of .005”! Thanks!
Best source of info ive ever seen on the subject.
Much appreciated!
thanks for taking the time to share, it was Very timely for me 😊
🤯 this is a high value production. Thanks so much for doing it. I’ll have to watch this 4-5 times to soak it all up. Nice work! Subscribed!
Very good break down of functionality and interface. Thanks and well done.😊
Well done! People will be using this video as a reference for years to come. I took similar photos of my hammer and sear engagement after doing my first ever trigger job. I just had to see what the angles looked like. Although, I didn't do nearly the in-depth analysis that you did. I've been using the gun in competitions with excellent results.
Thats awesome! Sounds like you were on the right track.
Excellent video. I've been watching a few in the past few weeks getting acquainted with the 1911 before starting on the MAC 9. Yes, you really got into the bushes on this one, but love the detail, explanation, and drawings. Thanks for sharing, Ken
I'm always trying to get more "creep" 😂 In the bullseye world we call it "roll," and "creep" is more like grittiness in that felt sear engagement. I did a trigger where I extended the hammer hooks out from .025" to .030 by essentially undercutting it with a safe edge file and not including the secondary angle on the sear and I have so much creep (roll) and feedback from the trigger, it's just about ideal. And I never did the math on it but it absolutely does feel like a 1:1 relationship between sear engagement and creep, or "roll" in my testing through very wide sear engagement to very narrow.
Its interesting that you want creep/roll for bullseye shooting but i guess that makes sense the more I think about it. It seems maybe the TR sear would be best for that? The more research I have done, and reading comments on this video, it seems the TR sear may produce more of a roll to the break which makes sense. For my purposes I like a nice distinct wall and crisp break - it seems my flat sear face cutting jig may be best for that.
Fantastic video, one of the best on this topic. It would be great to see you take this to the next level. To make more precise measurements you can approximate the installed condition using an inexpensive set of ZZ minus pin gauges (typ. $60 on Amazon) inserted into the frame and mount the parts externally on them, i.e. use the frame as a jig. You can also get an inexpensive (< $100) video microscope which will be much easier to use than the little Carson scope. Using the calibration slide is brilliant, I'm going to get one!
I appreciate the kind words! Good ideas too. I am currently working on improving my process. First I need to fix the loose pinhole on my sear and hammer jig. Well.. I tightenened it up, and that allowed me to more accurately measure its position. Its off in one axis by .027" and the other by .007". S,o I am working on drilling and reaming a new hole in the correct position in relation to the hammer pin hole, then press fitting a drill bushing and using a .1110" Z plug pin gauge.
I have developed more accurate measurement methods by taking a picture of the sear and hammer interface thru my microscope. I put the magnification at 20x, and I have measured my calibration slide in my software at 20X to develop a repeatable calibration. Now I can take measurements to about the .001" in my image software.
I have leftover gauge pin for the sear, so I will use that in the frame, I will buy the correct gauge pin for the hammer and I can check them outside the frame. Very straight forward on 1911s. On doublestack 1911s, the thicker frame area where the grip module attaches is very close to the sear pin hole so I may have to design and print some 3d spacers to repeatable locate the hammer and sear above that.
Thanks for watching, commenting, and chiming in with your ideas and experience!
Educative it was. I feel appreciating and thanking.
This was some awesome, geeky goodness. Brilliant! Thank you very much.
This is an absolutely wonderful video. I am amazed at how deeply and rigorously you examined this. I too use a microscope (an inexpensive Amscope digital student scope) and will be ordering a calibration slide, which had never occurred to me.
I'm a child of the '50s and have been in love with the 1911 ever since I first saw one in John Wayne's hand in an old World War II movie. I bought my first one in about the mid 1970s but I didn't start tinkering with it until the mid 1980s. My understanding of the relationship between the hammer and sear was rudimentary, and my skills were less than that, and the appropriateness of the tools I had available as a car mechanic was nonexistent, resulting in a hammer that would stay back when the slide was racked by hand, but would follow the slide on recoil. I only fired it one time like that.
In recent years both my skills and tools have improved and I've given a lot of thought to, and played around a lot with, the 1911 hammer and sear. Most recently, up until I discovered how good the Atlas ignition kits are, I had tried narrowing the sear tip to about .018", so it sat a couple of thousandths below the edge of .020" hammer hooks, and this gave a trigger with minimal creep, and that seems logically safe and passes the safety checks. With the better understanding I have after watching this video, I will be revisiting this on the guns that I have set up this way.
I have to say, since I purchased my first Atlas ignition kit I have not hand-tuned anything that I've installed one in. Under magnification the fit and finish of the parts is just too good to mess with. The most I've ever had to do is tweak the sear spring to get the desired trigger pull weight.
Thanks for the video.
Amazing information, used a 40x loop to see what angles looked like on a factory SA 1911 and it’s was negative engagement.
By the way the information here can be used to apply to pretty much any trigger job and it's interesting how many hammer/sear relationships in different models you notice have sear angles from the factory that actually cock the hammer back as the sear slips off the hammer hooks, which in my opinion, creates the worst feeling in the trigger of any sear angle. It also makes the trigger weight very dependent on hammer spring weight which imois not ideal, but they probably do this more for safety than anything when producing so much volume. Berettas are a great example of this. Anyways sorry to triple post but this is something I'm always trying to explain to people in a way that gets through to them and you've shown it with actually moving visuals
I appreciate the comments, you're contributing good information! I have looked at all the CZ hammer fired trigger systems in detail and they pretty much all have a parallel relationship in the fully cocked position and lift the hammer slightly as they release it. Same with the Beretta and you mentioned.
As far as I can tell after all this research is that a trigger *must* have creep to be safe - some creep. creep is the inherent result of hammer to sear engagement depth which is needed for a safe trigger.
I am curious to do some more modeling and calculations of trigger creep based on enagement and the trigger mechanism of hinged trigger pistols. With a hinged trigger and its pivot in relation to the triggger bar movement does it produce more or less creep that a 1911? I have a SAO CZ Shadow 2 and that trigger feels better than any 1911 i have felt which is insane to me.
@@EngineersArmory Agree 👍 I have heard of some bullseye smiths who will reduce the hammer hooks as far down as .018". Once they're done with the sear there's probably no more than .005" of sear engagement. I'm of the belief that the only way to get a true crisp trigger on what I would consider "simple" triggers like a 1911 is with that very low, very unsafe amount of sear engagement. But if its only use is bullseye that's mostly not a problem from a safety standpoint. An interesting trigger system is on the SIG P210. My military version must have almost .100" of sear engagement but the act of pulling the trigger through the first stage takes up 98% of that, cocking the hammer back noticeably as you do. From there you only really feel the second stage. It does this by way of a "double pull lever" (direct translation from some indecipherable german word). If you back off the trigger, the hammer goes back and you get full sear engagement again. That double pull lever essentially creates mechanical advantage against the sear engagement so you don't really feel it as you pull through the first stage, then as the DPLever reaches the end of its travel the 2nd stage feels to me like a 1:1 ratio between trigger travel and sear engagement. I wonder if something like that could be reverse engineered into a 1911. The closest I can get is by maxing out spring pressure on the pre travel.
@@JaredAF oh that's awesome! There are so many guns I wish I could get my hands on to do inspection and analysis like that. Thanks for the great description of that system!
I was lucky to go to one of Larry Vickers 1911 courses. So much knowledge passed to his students, great instructor. Now my fixture collection is out of control, and growing.
Man good stuff. Thanks for sharing your adventures
Thank you from Canada for your effort, it is an excellent video.
Boy did I enjoy this!
Very impressive video. Been gun smithing since 1991, and you have taken a very scientific approach to an age old modification on 1911's. Your attention to safety is laudable. I recall many years ago when I was learning this, that my master would ask the customer what pound trigger pull would he like. Then take the hammer and sear over to a 1 inch belt sander. Zip zip and he was done. Damned if it wasn't at the weight the customer asked for. He was a magician.
First of all, thank you for sharing your knowledge. I completely agree with your points, and I want to express my admiration. There is one aspect worth considering, and I'm not sure if it can be measured with the same precision as you did with the angles of the sear and the hammer, and that is the amount of pressure that should be applied to the sear spring. Thanks again.
Glad you enjoyed the content!
The force applied by the tang of the sear spring onto the sear legs was of course omitted from my 3D model. That model was showing what would happen in theory with different engagment angles. Setting up that spring, the correct contact set, and motion in the basic free version of my modeling software was not an option - believe me i tried. I also didn't want to do motion studies/simulations for each individual set up - video would have taken me another 3 weeks to make.
Sear spring tuning also varies wildly with the trigger job, trigger weight, desired trigger feel, the gunsmith doing the trigger job, etc. So it would be really difficult to quantify that, hard to measure too. If i could somehow measure that force insitu, it would be relatively easy to calculate pivot ratios and find the force that translates to at the sear/hammer hook interface. There are very small, flexible, and accurate strain gauges out there that could get the job done - that is very expensive lab grade equipment I dont have access to.
What makes a safe hammer hook and sear interface is a delicate balance of engagement angle, engagement depth, sear spring tuning (the left and center leaves), and main spring weight. This video only covered engagement angle and depth of the sear and hammer hooks.
Thanks for watching and commenting!
@@EngineersArmory Agree and thanks again.
I really like the radius seat jigs, warner or Harrison.
Try doing your slide drop test while stuffing the front of the pistol into something stiff but giving that will press in passed the barrel and sort of catch the slide at the end of it's travel and slow that lockup.
The old "stuff a sock in its mouth" trick. Good idea.
This video is AMAZING, and I LOVE videos like this! However, without prior knowledge to gunsmithing, I find that sometimes I am not too sure about what the parts are or what they actually do. Do you have any further plans to make a video as nerdy as this one but with more explanation of the basics? I would LOVE to watch a video like that!
Umm. I kinda just make videos as they relate to my current 1911 projects. I have some videos in a playlist of technical 1911 content on my channel that cover some of the more basic stuff. There are lots of good videos out there that go over the basics. The manuals I reference in this video can be found in free PDF form on the web, they are a great reference and contain the basics.
I don't know that I will make a video about the basic theory and operation of the 1911.
@ I see, thank you very much! Will definitely check those out :D
This is amazing info! THANKS!!
You're welcome! I'm glad you enjoyed it!
Very impressive and informative. Keep it up, great work.
Very good exam of the engagement, understandable.
Something often neglected concerning Sears is crowning. I learned about it 20 years ago with regards gears ⚙️ and for which the technology is quite old. Unfortunately it’s largely neglected for guns because of time to implement and manufacturing methods. If you have the tools and skill, the benefit of crowning is reducing the surface area and in turn reducing the friction.
Easy analog is the way knife smiths create scribe lines to approach true center of the blade and gradually file or polish or grind and smooth radius or approximate radius (by hand).
Note: this must be very subtle, approximately .001-.004 as to not weaken significantly the integrity of the sear shelf. Technically only one surface (external is easiest) needs the crown.
This technique is also used on the under belly of the AK Bolt Carrier to reduce friction as it travels over the hammer during reset but on a larger scale with less concern for tolerance of crown.
I may be misunderstanding what you mean by "crown." I am interpreting it as a slight radius on the primary face of the sear like the True Radius sear geometry. Is it different from that?
Thank you for making this! Excellent video. I am learning to do my own triggers and love the nerdy detail. I went with a TR jig to start with and I feel very vindicated in my choice. If you ever wanted to borrow the jig for a couple weeks to fit some long sears and play around with it, I'd send you mine if you cover shipping round trip.
Damn dude I appreciate that offer. I'll keep it in mind. I got a lost of things to do with my current setup. then possibly.
Well done. I made scale models of the hammer and sear. I would like to see atlas does to get a safe under 2 lb trigger pull plus it has to be safe. I have seen the radius sear nose concept discussed. Haven't made up my mind on that one. I agree the kuenhausen books are excellent. Thanks for taking the time for this vid.
Great info.
Someday discuss if it is anymore dangerous to carry a 1911 fully cocked with safety off compared to carrying a fully cocked striker pistol with no external safety.
I probably wont. Carrying a 1911 with the thumb safety off is more dangerous. in my opinion. 70 series 19111s dont have firing pin safety blocks, all striker fired guns do. I would never carry a gun without a FPSB myself. There are the basic mechanics of the pistols, but a big parts of that conversation would also be subjective due to what people feel comfortable with.
Also, if someone were to carry a 1911 with one in th chamber, the hammer cocked, and the thumb safety off, it would make them a damn fool (in my opinion). Its also objectively wrong considering the well defined manual of arms of the 1911.
Copy all. It just seems to me the only difference between the fully cocked external hammer and the fully cocked striker is that you can see one but cant see the other, if that makes sense.
Phenomenal video.
Great vid! Thanks for your time sir!
Useful info, that's clearly explained. That's rare. Bravo
Amazing content!!!!! I love it!!! Subscribing, thanks!!
excellent video!!! a couple of tools that might help...
Brownells makes BROWNELLS - TRIGGER ADJUSTMENT PINS so you can check the sear engagement on your specific frame... and Brownells/Yavapai 1911 Sear Tool for a microscope but seems your microscope got a good detailed picture of engagement. you can also use a .020 feeler gauge for the hammer hook height...
that little screw on the bottom of the ed brown sear jig is related to the angle of the primary sear angle in relation to the 90* hammer hooks...(good to know)
Special pins to check the engagement relationship are the next step if I need more accuracy with my trigger jobs (after I fix my hammer and sear jig). I would just machine my own on the lathe.
It would be pretty easy to design and 3d print a fixture to hold my microscope over the sear and hammer in the pistol frame with the extended pins.
The microscope I got is more than adequate for my needs. And it was only $13 haha. The fixtures really make the difference though. Which were.... some of my time and maybe $1 in filament.
The sear jig I use has more than enough adjustment on the screw to cut sear primary faces to angles what would work with original or modern hammer hook geometry.
Thanks for watching and commenting!
@@EngineersArmory harrison designs sells a true radius sear jig if you want the “roll “ trigger break instead of the wall …you could start out with a EGW long sear…
having a microscope to check engagement really is key .. awesome channel I’m watching the polishing video right now
@@strangisproductions I am curious about the true radius sear geometry and how it feels. Might have to buy one in the name of science! Haha. Thanks for watching and commenting. I appreciate the kind words as discussion!
@@EngineersArmory i think an engineer as talented as you could just make one!
@@strangisproductions that's one of those thing that would take way too much time and effort to do accurately on the manual machines I have access to. And I am an engineer not a machinist haha. I know enough about machining to get the simple tasks I want to do done but that's about it.
I bought a trigger kit from Nowlin that trigger had no geometry. It was completely rounded, and the hammer hooks were .015. I just returned it because it looked unsafe to me.
I am assuming you meant sear instead of trigger ("that trigger had no geometry"). If the sear tip was rounded and the hammer hooks were .015" that sounds extremely unsafe to me. Yikes!
@@EngineersArmory That's exactly what I mean
@tucoramirez2513 yeah that's no good. Sketchy
So you’re saying I need to buy a Dan Wesson? Agree!
HAHA you hear what you want to hear buddy!
Buy a Junk frame or 80% frame and machine a Cut-away window to view Hammer to Sear engagement. That's what I did and that frame has been invaluable over the past 25 years.
That is certainly one way to do it. Valuable for seeing the whole system working together. My $30 sear and hammer jig is good enough for me. That one frame will vary from every other frame in terms of pin hole location and parallelism just slightly. And that will vary between jigs used as well. If I cant see the exact relationship in every individual pistol, a representation of that relationship is the next best thing. Whether that's in a jig like I have, or another pistol frame. I went with the cheaper route that doesnt require machining a hole in a frame (I didnt have the machining capabilities I have now when I got this sear jig). To each their own though!
Thank you!
Superb.
great content
Great video, thanks
Truly a fantastic video. Which sear jig are you using to stone primary angles?
Thanks for the kind words!
This is the one I use:
www.brownells.com/tools-cleaning/gun-tools/handgun-tools/1911-sear-jig/
@@EngineersArmory Thank you sir. Keep it up with the videos!
You need a small optical comparator. Its used in a machine shop. Ive seen some used on a computer screen where you can measure with different angles and click the image to mark lines
There is a big ass one of those at my work used to compare large diameter thread pitches. Its pretty cool. I have used it to analyze the dimensions of buttress threads which are kinda neat. Not so sure they would be keen on me using it for gun parts haha.
@EngineersArmory we had one that was small and used a computer called a smartscope. Im sure there is a camera system now that incorporates a digital radical on screen for cheap
@@vettepicking Likely! thats pretty cool. I have used relatively cheap USB cameras on microscopes with software installed. You use a calibration slide (as I have shown here) to calibrate the measurement in the software, then for a given zoom level can take whatever measurements you need. Kind of similar to the method I showed here with my image processing software. I should actually try that. just use my calibration slide at 20X to set a calibration in my image processing software so i can just upload the picture then direcly measure what I want with more accuracy. Thanks for the good idea! haha
Your next video should be how to polish a sear without removing any metal done under high magnification.
Polishing removes metal by nature. Fine polishing removes very little. Not enough in this case to affect the sear and hammer relationship. I get what youre saying though.
I cut the sear with a medium/fine stone on my jig, then polish with a fine stone in the jig.
If you want to take it a step further than that check out this video:
th-cam.com/video/Cdyo6eVe5Mg/w-d-xo.htmlsi=LT7Xhyh6yINJCoew
Good info!
Heck yeah 👍
I have always wondered why a competition sear is not cut with a convex tip, with a radius equal to the distance between the tip and the center of the pivot pin.
In more research after this video it seems the true radius sear geometry is popular with bullseye shooter for a more "rolling break." I prefer a crisp snap, the flat sear face seems to be better for that. A lot of trigger feel is largely subjective. Just depends on what ya like.
Pretty damned finicky work.
Fun vid, good information, but I ain't gonna mess with a 1911 trigger!
Very finicky indeed! Glad you enjoyed it.
Fantastic stuff especially the name 😂
More please
I think all your diagrams and their implications would be far more clear if you included the pivot point and a perpendicular line at the point of contact - the perpendicular on one side of the pivot, safe, the other side, unsafe.
You got close to this when you described the true sear with the circular radius - all perpendicular lines through the pivot..
I like that idea. Hadn't thought of it. Simple enough with the static diagrams. There isnt a way that I know of in the software I use to constrain a sketch to a component or contact interface while I move it dynamically.
What software is that? Looks really clean and intuitive.
Autodesk Fusion360. The free version for individual use. In terms of free 3d modeling software its pretty good.
I would think a Kimber trigger is already done.
Nope. I mean i cant remember what the trigger was like in detail when I bought the pistol. I recently re did the trigger job on this one, to fix one that I did a few years ago when I didnt have as much experience (it was pretty bad). I did the trigger initially becuase I wanted to start learning how to do it.
My dad has a stock kimber that was about $1000 like... 15 years ago? I recently checked out the trigger and it wasnt how I would want it. Lots of creep, heavy, too much take up, overtravel not adjusted properly. I said "not how i would want it" becuase of course trigger feel is largely subjective.
What jig are you using for the hammer/sear?
Some cheap ass one I got off ebay years ago. Wouldnt recommend. I am in the process of fixing it right now.
If i were to do this again I would recommend this one:
www.brownells.com/tools-cleaning/gun-tools/handgun-tools/yavapai-1911-sear-tool/
life a bitch having one of those for safety is a must.
Out of curiosity, what would happen if the sear was perfectly round instead of a parallel flat engagement and secondary angle (enhanced TR/Warner)? You could change the size of the sear circumference to get enough engagement where the sear contacts both the hammer hook and where the secondary angle would make contact with the hammer
I think I understand what you're asking. As I have it shown here the TR/Warner sear does not have a secondary angle. I omitted that for clarity. Usually that sear tip profile would also have the secondary angle cut to adjust hammer hook engagement. You would want the arc of the primary face to always be part of the circle made by the tip if it circled around its pivot pin. If that radius was different (that arc was part of a different sized circle) that would result in the hammer being lifted or dropped as the sear pivoted forward. This would no longer be a "true neutral" relationship. I hope that answers your question. If I misunderstood it please feel free to correct me.
@@EngineersArmory That makes sense thanks for elaborating! I love learning about tuning handguns, I'm a gunsmith that runs a private shop in my spare time and I have the personal range to test modifications on firearms so live fire testing is free lol. I got bored tuning/troubleshooting glock platform handguns so I'm switching to series 70 1911/2011s.
Another question, what affect does notching the hammer hook or sear have? I see that in some of the handguns I service. That modification keeps the same contact angle and engagement but lessens the amount of material to contact the hammer hook.
@@SuspiciousGanymede less clear on that one. Can you please define "notching the hammer or sear" more clearly?
@@EngineersArmory if you use the picture of the sear in the top left at 3:09 and the picture of the hammer in the top right of 3:28 as a reference, that vertical line down the middle of both parts is where a notch is made at the hammer hook tip and sear tip using a file, dremel or similar tool. The engagement angle and amount of engagement remains the same with less surface area contact.
@@SuspiciousGanymede Still unclear what you're asking. The notch out of the center of the hammer and sear? The sear is split like that because the disconnector rides in it. The hammer is split so the hammer hooks contact the outside 1/3rd of the sear face, if it falls to the safety catch, the safety catch will damage the sear face. The safety catch hook generally only contacts the center of the sear face so it doesn't damage the area the hammer hooks contact. If the sear has a notch in the center of its engagement face, that is usually because the hammer has dropped to its safety catch and damaged that area.
Not sure if thats what you're referring to?
Lay the pistol on its side. Lay hammer and sear on the side of the pistol - on the exterior of the frame. Insert hammer and sear pins through the hammer and sear, into the pin holes in the frame. Voila! You now have a jig.
Thats one way to do it. Problem with that is now your hammer and sear pins are only engaged in one side of the frame holes - meaning they will be looser and the view of the sear and hammer engagement less accurate. Still a good method.
At some point I may just machine a tight tolerance set of extra long pins. Then of course I would need to design and 3D print a fixture to hold my new microscope over the frame in the perfect spot haha.
Isn't negative engagement dangerous?
As the hammer can work itself towards accidental discharge, like in environment with vibrations or bumps, that cause cause temporary unloading of the hammer on the sear?
With positive angle, sear resets itself every time.
Yes. I mention this at 06:24, 06:55, 07:49 - 08:21, 08:55 - 09:05, 10:36, and 12:37...
What resets the sear into engagement with the hammer hooks is the left leaf/tang of the sear spring. A positive engagement keeps it pulled into engagement once there. A negative engagement would be likely to push the sear back out of engagement once there. I showed this with my 3D model in the video a couple times.
buy an Extreeme Engineering firing group, so you'll be sure they are properly made and heat treated... some "manufactorers" sourced by them and still use their design but, not everything turns out as it should...
Those are a good option along with the EGW ignition kits, and Atlas perfect match ignition kits (which use EGW components).
I want to understand the trigger system in detail, and do this work myself... which is why I do this work myself. Cheaper too than buying a $100+ ignition kit every time I want to do a trigger job on a 1911 style pistol.
Also, installing one of those kits may or may not produce a trigger action to my liking, another reason for doing these modifications is dialing in the trigger to my liking.
@ sure, but you can’t do it with MIM parts, and EE parts are not drop in, you have to properly fit them… actually, there are no drop in parts in actual 1911 world, “Mimber” measures are not Colt, Springfield, etc measures, so you always have to fit them to your specific gun, they vary even among the same Manufacturer, and that’s another reason why nowadays 1911’s aren’t suited for general issue… also, the best gunsmiths I know, now use CNC machining for cutting sear and hammer hooks to ensure the best engagement, they eventually use the jigs just for lapping…
@pb1964 you can do it with properly manufactured and heat treated MIM parts. Trigger job just may not last as long, and you wouldnt want a crazy light hair trigger with MIM parts, the engagement likely wouldnt be safe (and work wear even quicker). And yes, each hammer and sear pair will need to he fit to eachother for optimal performance.
Agreed, the best way to cut hammer hook and sear geometry is modern CNC equipment.
@ MIM works when the parts are projected from the beginning to be specifically MIM in the role they have to play. They don’t in a 1911 ignition set, slide stop or safeties, unless you intend to use that gun as a range toy or non serious competition and not concerned if some parts fail, as they will fail for sure, without any advice, you won’t see any hair line, they just crack, I’ve seen it dozens of times…
@pb1964 people's acceptance of MIM parts in their pistols will vary with their experience and what they see as appropriate for their application of the pistol. I havent had any major issues with properly manufactured MIM parts and will leave them in my pistols. That's just my expereince. But, I wouldnt carry a 70 series 1911 anyways becuase there is no firing pin safety block. If I were to carry a 1911 to defend my life I agree I would feel more comfortable with billet parts. I dont really have any skin in the game of MIM parts in 1911s hahha
Be careful measuring from pictures and those calibration slides. It's the viewing angles that are a problem. The camera is never perfectly perpendicular and the thickness of the slide causes the same problem. It's very easy to get something very different from reality.
I was showing the pictures just for the video. I dont take pictures then measure from those. I get what you're saying tho. You're thinking of the nitty gritty details which I like!
I am very careful to focus on the scale on the galss, and that allows me to see the edge of whatever face is on the glass surface (in contact with the scale) in focus. This way the scale, and whatever I am measuring are in the same focal plane so their scale with respect to eachother wont get skewed.
I can't measure the face across its whole length this way obviously, I am making the assumption its width is relatively uniform (atleast within my measurement error) across the length of the face. I can flip the sear or hammer over and measure the width of the opposite edge and assume the width varies linearly across the length of the face.
No the scope will never be completely square, but very close.
All of this I considered and its why I included that +/- .002" measurement error. Reporting measurement undercertainty as half the smallest division is standard practice in terms of ethical data collection and reporting. I feel its conservative in this case and I am comfortable targeting .002" over my desired minimum value.
Since this video I have developed a better way to measure. Take the nice clear picture of the sear and hammer engagement in the jig, with both edges in focus (in the same focal plane), and put that into my image processing software and use a calibration I developed to measure the face widths that way. I feel this is more accurate, yet I still target .002" above my minimum for safety reasons.
The correct term for a person who possesses a good deal of knowledge and expertise on a subject, but has no formal education, training, or certification is “enthusiast.” I am personally a whiskey enthusiast, but some just say I’m a drunk.
🤣🙌
Buy a cylinder and slide matching kit with a 4.5 LB pull and be done
That's one way to do it if that is the trigger pull weight and action you're after.
Excellent video. I have an idea for you that may improve your results, and prove to be a marketable tool using your methods here. Any way I can email you?
Dont have a "public email" associated with the channel that I can share here. Best way is to DM me on reddit. U/rrppdd4. Can chat/exchange email there.
When you measure the geometry of your sear engagement, do you take strain caused by a loaded main spring into count?
No I do not. No way to measure these when loaded. Also that is such a light loading for the material any change in geometry would be too small for me to be able to measure.
Thank you for this great video. I too will be re-watching this & some of your other videos. BTW, I noticed no one in the comments referred to you as a "fukin' idiot"!
No one referred to me as a "fukin' idiot" yet....😂
Well he is a finger nail “peeler” eeewww
1:09 use some dykem?
Yeah that works good to check what the contact looks like, but not necessarily helpful to quantify it.
Why is dropping the slide on an empty chamber bad?
During normal operation, if the slide is coming forward, it is stripping a round from the magazine and chambering it. This slows down the slide. Without that round there being chambered the slide slams forward much harder, and overtime can batter parts. In the case of a 1911 it will put more stress on the barrel and slide locking lugs, the lower barrel lug, the slide stop cross pin, and barrel link.
P320 video next?
Ive got a few videos on p320s already. I like working on hammer fired guns much better. I would recommend the Sig Guy, and SIG MECHANICS youtube channels. They have awesome super technical content on the P320.
Just follow the instructions that come with the jig you'll be fine
The jig instructions will get you there for sure. They have a sear angle adjustment screw standard position called out. It is of course on the conservative side and prioritizes safety. It would cut a positive angle on most sears somewhere between 6-10 degrees more positive than a parallel relationship based on some quick calculations (the standard position is about .020" different than what usually gets me close to a parallel realtionship).
very good mansplaining - thanks!
Johnny Glocks has entered the chat...laughing!
Wait until you find out about hammer strut tuning, FRP angles, etc etc
Always more to learn!
@@EngineersArmory are you on other platforms?
@@JKCullens nope just the youtubes.
@@EngineersArmory can you share me your page for the ported cuts i lost the site
@@gironlam83 I replied to you on the Cz p10F video where you first asked this question.
The part u missed is the safety ck that tell you u fed up try again
I mentioned pertinent safety checks at 00:31, 19:30-19:52, and 21:45.
I mention other safety considerations related to hammer and sear engagement at 06:23, 06:58, 07:49, 12:37, and 14:07.
Please go back and watch those parts of the video. Then please consider editing or deleting your comment. I take firearms safety very seriously and always make sure to include pertinent safety information regarding the work I show in my videos. I do not take accusations that I have omitted this information lightly. I clearly have not omitted this information in this video, and I can tell you didn't watch the whole video or pay attention to the content before posting your comment.
Thanks!