Great explanation of harmonics. Know I understand why I love my 45 monos so much. I don't care if they are accurate. They just sound so pleasing to the ears and the heart. Plus no SS component will ever look as cool as a bunch of glowing tubes. Subscribed!!
Very good. I finally built a stereo SET amplifier using 300B and it has a charm all its own. The harmonic profile is much like a sawtooth with descending amplitudes and a full spectrum of all harmonics. I had to do it because, as you mentioned, I had to hear it for myself. I eventually went back to my push-pull amplifiers. I particularly like the Williamson design. I also might add that in the, so called, super-simplicity of these SET amplifiers, component values become much more critical than in push-pull amplifiers. I put in a switch in my SET to give me zero NFB and 7 dB NFB and prefer the touch of 7 dB of NFB as it makes it slightly cleaner. Long listening times do become more tiring, in my opinion and sine wave output is around 1% at 7 watts.
Always nice to hear a voice of reason. ❤ Making hi-fi field scam-free seems to be a mission. I mean, why not just accept the subjectivity of the thing and try to stop that esoteric craziness. But it's hard when most of the people's preferences are based just on looksof the very equipment...
This was genuinely great! I actually learned something - and I've been a guitarist for about 35 years! Very eye opening - or rather, ear opening....that the reason we naturally "warm" to tube amps, is because they are creating nice even harmonic distortions, as opposed to stripping the negative distortion away completely. That blew my mind, and makes perfect sense to me as to why we like them. Our ears love harmonic feedback! Great vid sir. Cheers! (p.s - I guess I need to start saving for a tube amp :)
Wasn’t sure….. But that was FUN…. well done. I didn’t think I would make it the whole video, but you kept sucking us in further into the rabbit hole. HA! And yea, I learned a TON! Thank you. New subscriber 🎉😂😊❤
Great video. I use se pentode, JLH, AB and dare I say it, class D. I like SEP best. It seems to suit my old ears. I think it's important to remember what music we like. Rock? Distorted. Synth? Distorted. Any form of digitisation. Distorted. So let's not get too hung up on our machinery and get back to listening to more (distorted) music. All you live music fans, remember that the multi-kilowatt P.A. you're hearing is mainly class D... digital
After 45 years of noodling in this hobby of ours I've come to the conclusion that the relationship of accurate hfif to our ears and brains is like the relationship of light weight bicycles to our beer guts and lard arses. No matter the the level of effort we put into improving the former it will never rise to a level that overcomes the problems presented by the latter. And we ride on with both. Its almost as impossible to make our ears and brains better as it is to make or guts and butts better. I have a push/pull tube amp and no matter what distortion it makes it works well enough for my ears and brain. Although, at times, I do think it may make my butt look big. But on a more serious note, thanks for another great educational video! I look forward to your next.
@@Lancaster_Hi-Fi You are welcome. By the way I've been meaning to comment on your last video with the Dynaco SCA80. I have a SCA80Q that currently needs repair, but if you are not familiar with it look into the Dynaco QD-1 Quadaptor. Its a stand alone sound processing unit that Dynaco built into the SCA80Q. And that's the difference between the SCA80 and the 80Q. I tend to think of the Qudaptor as something more than just another hifi gadget from the past. th-cam.com/video/ZJMpPAI15po/w-d-xo.html
Might you point me toward a SET amplifier schematic that doesn't require feedback and could be built by a beginner? And if not built, perhaps easily modified, (like Skunkie Design mod -A 12). Props to Stephe. Suggestions? 95 dB sensitivity speakers. Heresy II
The one that's been recommended to me, and the one I intend to build, is the Simple 45, the latest version of which is the TubeLab SE II. With a few changes, it can be built for 45's, 2A3's, or 300B's. I have some Tamura output transformers that are perfect for 45's, so that's the version I'll be building.
Howdy. Great. Yes. One can get a flat response using global neg. feedback. There is a problem doing single wave measurements. It does not show the effect of phase lag. Adding a lagged sine wave to the original sine wave results in a sine wave. OPTs may be considered to cause the same time lag at different frequencies. This causes different phase shifting for different frequencies. If this has any relevance to the sound, I understand, is a subject of debate. I can't take a stand on that. Global neg. feedback easily generate spikes and ringing at the kinks measuring with rectangle waves. These may cause the end tube grids going positive resulting in blocking distortion. Spikes and ringing must then be managed by limiting slew rate. I don't use global neg. feedback in my designs. I take the feedback from the end tube anodes. Another reason is I like the extra electrical safety the OPTs deliver leaving the secondaries floating. High Regards.
I can see the advantage in going from the anodes. Of course, you'd need a coupling capacitor, and it would make the calculations for the (input stage) cathode and feedback resistors a lot different, but simpler in a way, since you just need to figure the resistance needed to attenuate the signal. Would that be a much larger value than going from the secondary? Plus the impedance of the primary being much greater, the value of the feedback resistor wouldn't have much effect on the value of the cathode resistor on the input stage. Am I getting that right?
I've built every kind of tube preamp, hi-fi and guitar amp, and although I'm not disagreeing with your video... I'll take a SET amp over any other every time.
Subscribed: I loved your clever class on harmonics. Though I've owned a few tube preamps over the years, I've just started listening the to Reisong A12 class A SET amp for the the first time (SS preamp). It's sonic effect on the music is not subtle. The A12 does the "tube thing" audiophiles like me crave: Slight touch of warmth to make bad recordings listenable, soundstage depth and width, "you are there" imagining, etc. I look forward to viewing more of your videos regarding tubes and sound systems.
I don't want accurate clean output. I have built amps from scratch with and without negative feedback. I like the sound of no negative feedback for increased gain and earlier distortion.
You're experience tells a lot about reality odf tperception of heazring and music....but audiophiles are stuck in their beliefsystems.......wich they don't accept to argue about because you can't argue with beliefs. But believe your ears .............i do the samI bguild amplifiers for long and have sixty plus years experience with tubes , I stopped arguying with part of ausiophiles who lack the know how and sell their fake beliefs and measurments to others............ Shure you like music , I do olve MUSIC also and not absolute sound machines ........all sound is not music . Have a nice day .
Are you talking about guitar amps? I'd bet that builders and users of guitar amps have more realistic, practical knowledge of what different amps are good for. Audiophiles, on the other hand, typically know less about what's going on under the hood and are sold on the idea of absolute accuracy and low distortion, but they actually enjoy pleasant-sounding distortion, so they resort to attributions of magic, literally, to SET amps. I know, "not all"!
I agree with some of it, and from a different criteria. The main problem I find is that virtually no one understands the basics of how to design a perfect push pull amplifier. It is extremely difficult to accomplish, and using a few equations won't get one there. I am addressing naturalness, the instrument sounds real, not some manipulation SET using high distortion (as the author nicely mentions), to create some kind of inner detail as one scam artist presents. SETs will never be that great for several reasons let alone the holy grail. Just a few points below. (I applaud the author's clear explanations.) 1. The damping factor varies to near zero damping as the power output increases. That means the speaker cones are not controlled over a portion of the cones movement. 2. The Harmonic Distortion (HD) is much higher, esp using DHT tubes, with Intermodulation Distortion (IMD) typically some 2-3 times that of the high HD figure. Even at one watt, the HD of DHT types can be several %, some10 times that of a properly designed Push Pull (PP) amplifier. At maximum output the IMD of an SET amp often runs some 15% to 45%. Interestingly, IMD frequencies are not related to the music. No wonder that SETs are often auditioned with a solo instrument, not a quartet or complex orchestra. All 3/2 law tubes have 2nd, 3rd, 5th, and 7th harmonic distortions (Eimac). To mask the odd harmonics, the designers will use techniques to insanely increase the 2nd harmonics, which masks the higher orders of distortion, true inner detail, the natural music. The huge 2nd harmonic gives the music a smooth sound, limits the dynamics, and artificially makes voices huge. Anyone seen 5 foot wide lips? And what about the true inner detail, recording studio wall reflections, in the recording? 3. The cathode circuit of DHTs often uses undesirable parts which defeats the purpose of using a DHT tube, the so called musical "purity". 4. The high voltage power supplies need chokes/inductors to minimize 120hz hum. However chokes create frequency dependent distortion. PP amp don't need such distortion producers. If Solid State (SS) regulation is used in place of chokes, who wants SS deteriorating the sound? With most of those amplifiers, there is feedback through the power supply itself. Check the price of the DHT tubes, and who makes the profits?? There are more problems, but one begins to understand just how poor SETs are. As mentioned above, DHT SETs are hyped is because the tubes are profit makers, and virtually no one, especially the SET guys, understands how to design a PP amplifier. As the author nicely mentions, AB1 does not have notch or crossover distortion. Class B does however. One addition, with PP, one can add some even order harmonics. Secondly, the distortion level is so much lower if designed properly. At one watt, my PP amp only has 0,05% total HD, without any global feedback. Try that with an SET, especially with a DHT tube. LOL My lab preamplifier and my PP amps etc are not only more natural, but are so transparent that 1 part in 4.1 million is heard. That is incredibly transparent, the ear is incredibly sensitive. (A DHT SET amp is not even close.) Using typical 20 log means that the extent one can hear down to is at least -132db. With such ear sensitivity, is it any wonder why different components with the same specs sound different. An interesting example, a +/- 0,1db 20 - 20khz means the variation is only in the general range of minus 54db down. As one can see, that figure means virtually nothing. Another influencer in sound quality which typical specs don't cover is the electrolytic capacitor vs the poly capacitor as the decoupling capacitor in each stage (and preferably earlier in the design). The DA of an electrolytic capacitor is some 5 to 15% (Wiki). I usually see 10%. A polypropylene capacitor's DA is generally regarded as 0,02%. 0,02% quite an improvement in the sound, much more transparent. How often has one heard the recording studio walls? That is true intimate detail, not using the tube's distortion masking out the true intimate details. Lastly, what many "experts" (not the author) fail to understand is that a college degree gives us the tools to further investigate. The degree itself, or a book itself is not the end all. A few equations will not create a perfect accurate/natural sounding product. cheers S
Love this vid - lots of fun and calls out some of the absolutism out there wrt tube amps in general and SETs vs others and class A vs AB, in particular. I have been wondering why 2nd order harmonics are pleasant - it seems to me that they must naturally come out in some recording spaces and also in certain listening rooms. I could be wrong, but they seem to provide a better appreciation of the depth and space around the instruments/voices. Perhaps, adding some 2nd order harmonics could be a good thing for music recorded in a space that starves the notes of those harmonics? But, surely you can have too much of a good thing (ie 2nd order harmonics) and what does that sound like?
@@Lancaster_Hi-Fi I did already mine stereo but instead triodes I used pentodes with loudness correction and it works fantastic , Unfortunately it sounds so real as amplifiers prized 50 000 USD shown in audio exhibition. - that is the indicatiion that it again must be distortion machine.🤪
@@Lancaster_Hi-Fi I am not sure if you are asking me about pentodes. I applied my own concept of two feedbacks - first is say "a bit" conventional general for two stages but phase corrected - that invention was developed only in one radio which was produced in less than hundred number in 1939 - war stopped this model and factory - now only few exist and one of them I have . Second ffedback is local only for pentode. That last is also rarely met - I know only one producer who made 60 years ago such concept in his tape recorders and in my opinion it gave "something " good to it's SE tube ampliifer. Frankly I did not chceck distortions by measurements - but. any brand made solid which I use or used do not equal this naturality of sound. .Bell and Pioneer tube amplifiers which I have are harder for me to compare by ear anyway If I free choose for listening I choose my amlifier.
@@Mikexception Sounds really interesting. I'd be interested in learning more. I was asking because pentodes generally sound unpleasant (relatively) without feedback; too much odd-harmonic distortion.
A few years ago, I was the proud owner of a Sansui AU-719. In my apartment, my upstairs neighbor thought there was an earthquake happening. It wasn't a problem for him as he didn't see it as a disturbance. Since then, I've been adjusting my hobby audio setup to avoid causing any inconvenience. I relocated my entire setup away from the heating pipes. I replaced my floor-standing speakers with monitors on stands. Now with a tube amplifier, it's very loud indoors but very quiet outdoors.
I haven't used Schade feedback specifically, but I've used local feedback in the preamp stage with a 7025 on my modded Magnavox AMP-185. This was local feedback from screen to grid of a single stage outside of the global NFB loop. It seems to work well, but I haven't put it through any rigorous testing, other than my ears.
The highest grade amplifier should not use NFB. If someone is biased in SET for the added distortion for ones preference then lets go to soild state Push pull amp. Even in Push Pull soild state amp without NFB can far more better sounding than the one with NFB NFB by nature ot on surface help to remove distortion but NFB at the same time also remove some subtle signals from the sound source and also alter few element of the original signal. There is a good expression from Charles Hensen - To use the past signal to improve the right now signal, like NFB, in real nature it does not exist
There are components that can introduce phase lag, especially at the extremes of the audible frequency range, and those issues need to be addressed in any good implementation of NFB. That said, the idea that you're using the past signal to correct the present is a misconception of how circuits work. Signal propagation is effectively instantaneous. If you doubt that fact, you just need to superimpose the input and output signals on an oscilloscope. But I'm unlikely to convince you I'm right if you're already convinced I'm wrong, so I would encourage you to do some research into the engineering literature (not the audiophile literature).
Correct amount of gain in preamp is crucial.i use 6922 series to 12bh7 one side driver to 6550 se snd channel subbed 5879 in v1 .no tone stack .one vol 500k for each channel no nfb for guitar.
Looking at purchasing a PrimaLuna Dialogue 5, PP amplifier at 36 Watts per channel. Paired with 94 db tower speakers rated at 250 Watts. Should I go with it vs. a smaller Watt SET amp like a Decware Zen Triode? I like the idea of auto-biasing with the PrimaLuna and some of its built-in protection.
Your speakers are relatively efficient, but unless you won't ever want to really crank the volume, the Zen Triode is probably still underpowered for a "one-and-only" power amp. Might be great for you if you have a relatively powerful solid-state backup. That said, I've never listened to a Zen Triode, so I've never probed its limits. And I think there's a long waiting list.
@@Lancaster_Hi-Fi Thank you Lancaster Hi-Fi. I did pick up a Primaluna amp today and will be connecting it for the first time. Still have 50 W and a 70 W SS receivers. Enjoy your channel and appreciate the time you put in.
@@Lancaster_Hi-Fi It's been working out fine. Not a holographic sound but damn good. I added a graphic EQ for fun. Lossless streaming might tip the scales to great but I'm still rolling with Spotify.
hi i made a single end kt66 in triode connection i am thinking about negative feedback ,global feddback or local feedback what do you think,some likes local feedback
Interesting informnation but i could not see definition what is "distortion machine". I. What is the exact device you daily use to measure distortions? I hope mentioned ear sensations is joke?
I'm just referring to known facts. Triodes generally produce more even harmonics. (Pentodes more odd harmonics, so single-ended pentode amps without negative feedback are rare.) Push-pull circuits cancel out even harmonics (and power supply hum!). Negative feedback reduces distortion. I recommend _Valve Amplifiers_ by Morgan Jones. I've learned a lot from that book.
@@Lancaster_Hi-Fi Fact is happening which we can point to everybody so they can instantly see it or we instantly prove it beyond doubt. Fact beyond doubt we can call "fact". So called "known" facts are only perceived informations from somebody who ususaly heard it i from third person an never proof it by himself. Did You assured yourself that author of that book proven something by himself or he put long list of source literature ? All of them have long lists of sources at end? I am different - if I asy I know it means I checked it by myself - and I in each time I can prove it to anybody. so pls do not tell me to read something I do not have reason to trust. I am confident I could write book about audio which would be much more interesting ( I resigned from my membership in AES after I learned I do not gain from them but they gain from me and I need to pay for it). Due to somebody think he got knowledge by reading or hearing he treat it as "known fact" in opposite to "fact" If he describes fact he should honestly proof it or show, not to point the books. That is the reason why You honestly used termin "known fact" . Do yu see the difference? "Known facts" are presented by older ladies from neighborhood who learned from their friends
@@Lancaster_Hi-Fi Ear sensation is what You only can hear. Problem is that people hear more sound from tube amplifiers, do not know the reason but are keen to find explanation. They noticed only differntly looking tube characteristic. Then they came out with theory of even distortions haunting HI FI tube amplifiers. . Thing is that many producers of guitar amplifiers and musicians depend on deliberate even grade distortions made by usualy over controlled tube amplifiers for electric guitars. .They do it for two reasons: because solid amplifiers cut good distortions which they obtain from block of effect . Not beacuse they have little distortions - they present perfectly taylored distortion effects greatly damped and that is their bad future, And second - beaciuse they do not use blocks and depend only on amplifier distortions which with over controll are are "nicer" than ubbearable overcontrolled solid. . That provided a lot of confuse about tubes Hi FI technology. A am only asking abourt hard evidence from distortion meters how much is distortion in Hi FI tube amplifier at listening power,. Because ear sensation is no possible fully to transform to "technical data" and what you can use except ears? .
I spent my money ONLY on life performances , ......ZERO distortion, pin point imaging ( I reserve the best seat what ever the priice )...huge dynamics, perfect soundstage, detail retrieving , no noise ( I gonna rent the place for myself )........pure fidelity to perfection ........ I am the world's most happy audiophile.......and NO WAF !!!!
I get it, and I used to go to a lot of live shows, but I generally had to wear earplugs to avoid hearing loss. And often the sound systems suck. And if it's too loud, my own ears introduce distortion that's pretty unpleasant. My son and I went to a live show last night and had to move to the back room after a couple of songs. And I'm someone who generally likes to crank the volume and rock out at home. I've generally found live shows a mixed bag.
Good question. I've never had a solid state single-ended amp. I think the Nelson Pass Amp-Camp Amp is single ended, and those have a following. My recollection is that the ACA has no negative feedback, though.
Why would I want a SET tube amp ? Be cause my next release of my 2 channel preamp into a series connected 6V6 audio amp will be a fabulous build........ Attached is the current version. th-cam.com/video/NrSPlGQ-JAM/w-d-xo.html
I'm not judging! And why is it silly to inform people about whether and why they might like something? Some people like that sweet SET sound, but it's not for everyone. I've had my desktop amp set to SET mode for the last couple of weeks, and I've enjoyed it.
if you can avoid global feedback its nice to avoid, but its not always possible and can help, and better keep it short to avoid unwanted oscilations. But what is point of these non practical video, this is just his view nothing with real audio devices engineering, bad aproach to understand oversimplified, no philosophy behind this too, waste of time.
![[#2024MAMA] ROSÉ (로제), Bruno Mars - APT. | Mnet 241122 방송](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/dgGqD28J6aQ/mqdefault.jpg)
Brilliant! As a electronics engineer, this is how it is and how things work.
Excellent explanation of sound versus electronic amplification. Wish I had a teacher like this in my school !
Thanks!
Great explanation of harmonics. Know I understand why I love my 45 monos so much. I don't care if they are accurate. They just sound so pleasing to the ears and the heart. Plus no SS component will ever look as cool as a bunch of glowing tubes. Subscribed!!
Thanks!
Very good. I finally built a stereo SET amplifier using 300B and it has a charm all its own. The harmonic profile is much like a sawtooth with descending amplitudes and a full spectrum of all harmonics. I had to do it because, as you mentioned, I had to hear it for myself. I eventually went back to my push-pull amplifiers. I particularly like the Williamson design. I also might add that in the, so called, super-simplicity of these SET amplifiers, component values become much more critical than in push-pull amplifiers. I put in a switch in my SET to give me zero NFB and 7 dB NFB and prefer the touch of 7 dB of NFB as it makes it slightly cleaner. Long listening times do become more tiring, in my opinion and sine wave output is around 1% at 7 watts.
Always nice to hear a voice of reason. ❤ Making hi-fi field scam-free seems to be a mission. I mean, why not just accept the subjectivity of the thing and try to stop that esoteric craziness. But it's hard when most of the people's preferences are based just on looksof the very equipment...
This is such a fantastic educational video, so clear, scientific, well constructed and with a good dose a humor. Thanks for the class!
Thanks!
This was genuinely great! I actually learned something - and I've been a guitarist for about 35 years! Very eye opening - or rather, ear opening....that the reason we naturally "warm" to tube amps, is because they are creating nice even harmonic distortions, as opposed to stripping the negative distortion away completely. That blew my mind, and makes perfect sense to me as to why we like them. Our ears love harmonic feedback! Great vid sir. Cheers! (p.s - I guess I need to start saving for a tube amp :)
I grew up with what I think were SET amps. Played with them as a kid. They may have been push pull, but I am going to gamble on SET.
Wasn’t sure….. But that was FUN…. well done. I didn’t think I would make it the whole video, but you kept sucking us in further into the rabbit hole. HA! And yea, I learned a TON! Thank you. New subscriber 🎉😂😊❤
Thanks!
Great video. I use se pentode, JLH, AB and dare I say it, class D. I like SEP best. It seems to suit my old ears. I think it's important to remember what music we like. Rock? Distorted. Synth? Distorted. Any form of digitisation. Distorted. So let's not get too hung up on our machinery and get back to listening to more (distorted) music. All you live music fans, remember that the multi-kilowatt P.A. you're hearing is mainly class D... digital
After 45 years of noodling in this hobby of ours I've come to the conclusion that the relationship of accurate hfif to our ears and brains is like the relationship of light weight bicycles to our beer guts and lard arses. No matter the the level of effort we put into improving the former it will never rise to a level that overcomes the problems presented by the latter. And we ride on with both. Its almost as impossible to make our ears and brains better as it is to make or guts and butts better. I have a push/pull tube amp and no matter what distortion it makes it works well enough for my ears and brain. Although, at times, I do think it may make my butt look big. But on a more serious note, thanks for another great educational video! I look forward to your next.
🤣 Well said! Thanks!
@@Lancaster_Hi-Fi You are welcome. By the way I've been meaning to comment on your last video with the Dynaco SCA80. I have a SCA80Q that currently needs repair, but if you are not familiar with it look into the Dynaco QD-1 Quadaptor. Its a stand alone sound processing unit that Dynaco built into the SCA80Q. And that's the difference between the SCA80 and the 80Q. I tend to think of the Qudaptor as something more than just another hifi gadget from the past.
th-cam.com/video/ZJMpPAI15po/w-d-xo.html
@@jeffbrooke4892 Interesting! Sounds like a pretty simple circuit. If you need help with troubleshooting your SCA80Q, let me know.
13:17... Outstanding. Sorry, I couldn't resist.
Might you point me toward a SET amplifier schematic that doesn't require feedback and could be built by a beginner? And if not built, perhaps easily modified, (like Skunkie Design mod -A 12). Props to Stephe. Suggestions? 95 dB sensitivity speakers. Heresy II
The one that's been recommended to me, and the one I intend to build, is the Simple 45, the latest version of which is the TubeLab SE II. With a few changes, it can be built for 45's, 2A3's, or 300B's. I have some Tamura output transformers that are perfect for 45's, so that's the version I'll be building.
@@Lancaster_Hi-Fi Thank you for everything. Appreciate learning from you.
Howdy. Great.
Yes. One can get a flat response using global neg. feedback.
There is a problem doing single wave measurements. It does not show the effect of phase lag. Adding a lagged sine wave to the original sine wave results in a sine wave.
OPTs may be considered to cause the same time lag at different frequencies. This causes different phase shifting for different frequencies. If this has any relevance to the sound, I understand, is a subject of debate. I can't take a stand on that.
Global neg. feedback easily generate spikes and ringing at the kinks measuring with rectangle waves. These may cause the end tube grids going positive resulting in blocking distortion. Spikes and ringing must then be managed by limiting slew rate. I don't use global neg. feedback in my designs. I take the feedback from the end tube anodes.
Another reason is I like the extra electrical safety the OPTs deliver leaving the secondaries floating.
High Regards.
I can see the advantage in going from the anodes. Of course, you'd need a coupling capacitor, and it would make the calculations for the (input stage) cathode and feedback resistors a lot different, but simpler in a way, since you just need to figure the resistance needed to attenuate the signal. Would that be a much larger value than going from the secondary? Plus the impedance of the primary being much greater, the value of the feedback resistor wouldn't have much effect on the value of the cathode resistor on the input stage. Am I getting that right?
I've built every kind of tube preamp, hi-fi and guitar amp, and although I'm not disagreeing with your video... I'll take a SET amp over any other every time.
Subscribed: I loved your clever class on harmonics. Though I've owned a few tube preamps over the years, I've just started listening the to Reisong A12 class A SET amp for the the first time (SS preamp). It's sonic effect on the music is not subtle. The A12 does the "tube thing" audiophiles like me crave: Slight touch of warmth to make bad recordings listenable, soundstage depth and width, "you are there" imagining, etc. I look forward to viewing more of your videos regarding tubes and sound systems.
Cool, thanks!
I don't want accurate clean output. I have built amps from scratch with and without negative feedback. I like the sound of no negative feedback for increased gain and earlier distortion.
You're experience tells a lot about reality odf tperception of heazring and music....but audiophiles are stuck in their beliefsystems.......wich they don't accept to argue about because you can't argue with beliefs.
But believe your ears .............i do the samI bguild amplifiers for long and have sixty plus years experience with tubes , I stopped arguying with part of ausiophiles who lack the know how and sell their fake beliefs and measurments to others............
Shure you like music , I do olve MUSIC also and not absolute sound machines ........all sound is not music .
Have a nice day .
Are you talking about guitar amps? I'd bet that builders and users of guitar amps have more realistic, practical knowledge of what different amps are good for. Audiophiles, on the other hand, typically know less about what's going on under the hood and are sold on the idea of absolute accuracy and low distortion, but they actually enjoy pleasant-sounding distortion, so they resort to attributions of magic, literally, to SET amps. I know, "not all"!
I agree with some of it, and from a different criteria. The main problem I find is that virtually
no one understands the basics of how to design a perfect push pull amplifier. It is extremely difficult to accomplish, and using a few equations won't get one there. I am addressing naturalness, the instrument sounds real, not some manipulation SET using high distortion (as the author nicely mentions), to create
some kind of inner detail as one scam artist presents. SETs will never be that great for several reasons let alone the holy grail. Just a few points below. (I applaud the author's clear explanations.)
1. The damping factor varies to near zero damping as the power output increases. That means the
speaker cones are not controlled over a portion of the cones movement.
2. The Harmonic Distortion (HD) is much higher, esp using DHT tubes, with Intermodulation Distortion (IMD) typically some 2-3 times that of the high HD figure. Even at one watt, the HD of DHT types can be several %, some10 times that of a properly designed Push Pull (PP) amplifier. At maximum output the IMD of an SET amp often runs some 15% to 45%. Interestingly, IMD frequencies are not related to the music.
No wonder that SETs are often auditioned with a solo instrument, not a quartet or complex orchestra.
All 3/2 law tubes have 2nd, 3rd, 5th, and 7th harmonic distortions (Eimac). To mask the odd harmonics, the designers will use techniques to insanely increase the 2nd harmonics, which masks the higher orders of distortion, true inner detail, the natural music. The huge 2nd harmonic gives the music a smooth sound, limits the dynamics, and artificially makes voices huge. Anyone seen 5 foot wide lips? And what about the true inner detail, recording studio wall reflections, in the recording?
3. The cathode circuit of DHTs often uses undesirable parts which defeats the purpose of using
a DHT tube, the so called musical "purity".
4. The high voltage power supplies need chokes/inductors to minimize 120hz hum. However chokes create frequency dependent distortion. PP amp don't need such distortion producers.
If Solid State (SS) regulation is used in place of chokes, who wants SS deteriorating the sound? With most
of those amplifiers, there is feedback through the power supply itself. Check the price of the DHT tubes,
and who makes the profits??
There are more problems, but one begins to understand just how poor SETs are. As mentioned above,
DHT SETs are hyped is because the tubes are profit makers, and virtually no one, especially the SET guys, understands how to design a PP amplifier. As the author nicely mentions, AB1 does not have notch or crossover distortion. Class B does however.
One addition, with PP, one can add some even order harmonics. Secondly, the distortion level is so much lower if designed properly. At one watt, my PP amp only has 0,05% total HD, without any global feedback. Try that with an SET, especially with a DHT tube. LOL
My lab preamplifier and my PP amps etc are not only more natural, but are so transparent that 1 part in
4.1 million is heard. That is incredibly transparent, the ear is incredibly sensitive. (A DHT SET amp is not even close.) Using typical 20 log means that the extent one can hear down to is at least -132db. With such ear sensitivity, is it any wonder why different components with the same specs sound different.
An interesting example, a +/- 0,1db 20 - 20khz means the variation is only in the general range of
minus 54db down. As one can see, that figure means virtually nothing.
Another influencer in sound quality which typical specs don't cover is the electrolytic capacitor vs the
poly capacitor as the decoupling capacitor in each stage (and preferably earlier in the design). The DA
of an electrolytic capacitor is some 5 to 15% (Wiki). I usually see 10%. A polypropylene capacitor's DA
is generally regarded as 0,02%. 0,02% quite an improvement in the sound, much more transparent.
How often has one heard the recording studio walls? That is true intimate detail, not using the tube's
distortion masking out the true intimate details.
Lastly, what many "experts" (not the author) fail to understand is that a college degree gives us the tools
to further investigate. The degree itself, or a book itself is not the end all. A few equations will not create a perfect accurate/natural sounding product.
cheers
S
That's a lot to consider, and deep! Thanks!
Had a nice push pull el34 sold it for a SET 😂 . BEST DECISION I EVER MADE
Great video. SETs for me
there are amps that don't need negative feedback. Decware for one. there is also a timing/phase issue with negative feedback that cannot be avoided.
Love this vid - lots of fun and calls out some of the absolutism out there wrt tube amps in general and SETs vs others and class A vs AB, in particular.
I have been wondering why 2nd order harmonics are pleasant - it seems to me that they must naturally come out in some recording spaces and also in certain listening rooms. I could be wrong, but they seem to provide a better appreciation of the depth and space around the instruments/voices. Perhaps, adding some 2nd order harmonics could be a good thing for music recorded in a space that starves the notes of those harmonics? But, surely you can have too much of a good thing (ie 2nd order harmonics) and what does that sound like?
DO some study and homework ........
DO some study and homework ........
Someone is grumpy. There was a good video I watched recently, something like "You don't understand saturation."
Enjoyed hearing your thoughts - Thanks for the video
Thougts and reality are two different things.....but indeed you may like them.
@@frankgeeraerts6243 Yes they are; maybe I should have said enjoyed the rationales for your thoughts.
Dang, Frank, why so serious? Be nice! And specificity would be helpful.
Thanks! And you're welcome!
I have several SE guitar amps......... and a 300b stereo amp. I like them. I have some Class AB's that I like a lot too.
I need to get around to building an SET guitar amp or two!
@@Lancaster_Hi-Fi I did already mine stereo but instead triodes I used pentodes with loudness correction and it works fantastic , Unfortunately it sounds so real as amplifiers prized 50 000 USD shown in audio exhibition. - that is the indicatiion that it again must be distortion machine.🤪
Pentodes without negative feedback?
@@Lancaster_Hi-Fi I am not sure if you are asking me about pentodes.
I applied my own concept of two feedbacks - first is say "a bit" conventional general for two stages but phase corrected - that invention was developed only in one radio which was produced in less than hundred number in 1939 - war stopped this model and factory - now only few exist and one of them I have . Second ffedback is local only for pentode. That last is also rarely met - I know only one producer who made 60 years ago such concept in his tape recorders and in my opinion it gave "something " good to it's SE tube ampliifer.
Frankly I did not chceck distortions by measurements - but. any brand made solid which I use or used do not equal this naturality of sound. .Bell and Pioneer tube amplifiers which I have are harder for me to compare by ear anyway If I free choose for listening I choose my amlifier.
@@Mikexception Sounds really interesting. I'd be interested in learning more. I was asking because pentodes generally sound unpleasant (relatively) without feedback; too much odd-harmonic distortion.
A few years ago, I was the proud owner of a Sansui AU-719. In my apartment, my upstairs neighbor thought there was an earthquake happening. It wasn't a problem for him as he didn't see it as a disturbance. Since then, I've been adjusting my hobby audio setup to avoid causing any inconvenience. I relocated my entire setup away from the heating pipes. I replaced my floor-standing speakers with monitors on stands. Now with a tube amplifier, it's very loud indoors but very quiet outdoors.
Iv owned both and all tube amp are great i will never go back to transistor 👍
I understand. I still haven't let go of SS, but my enthusiasm for tubes is great. 😁
You like Lou Barlow’s playing on the Rickenbacker? I like to have both PP and SE amps... Have you tried local Schade feedback?
Lou is godlike.
Never heard of Schade feedback. Guess I'd better do some Googling.
I haven't used Schade feedback specifically, but I've used local feedback in the preamp stage with a 7025 on my modded Magnavox AMP-185. This was local feedback from screen to grid of a single stage outside of the global NFB loop. It seems to work well, but I haven't put it through any rigorous testing, other than my ears.
I love tubes, but some here would love the 1969 JLH amp for simple design, low cost and tubelike sound (transistors) 10 watts class A.
Interesting, I was not familiar with it. Certainly a cheaper option!
Finding your stride. Loved the video!!!
Thanks!
The highest grade amplifier should not use NFB. If someone is biased in SET for the added distortion for ones preference then lets go to soild state Push pull amp.
Even in Push Pull soild state amp without NFB can far more better sounding than the one with NFB
NFB by nature ot on surface help to remove distortion but NFB at the same time also remove some subtle signals from the sound source and also alter few element of the original signal.
There is a good expression from Charles Hensen - To use the past signal to improve the right now signal, like NFB, in real nature it does not exist
There are components that can introduce phase lag, especially at the extremes of the audible frequency range, and those issues need to be addressed in any good implementation of NFB. That said, the idea that you're using the past signal to correct the present is a misconception of how circuits work. Signal propagation is effectively instantaneous. If you doubt that fact, you just need to superimpose the input and output signals on an oscilloscope. But I'm unlikely to convince you I'm right if you're already convinced I'm wrong, so I would encourage you to do some research into the engineering literature (not the audiophile literature).
Correct amount of gain in preamp is crucial.i use 6922 series to 12bh7 one side driver to 6550 se snd channel subbed 5879 in v1 .no tone stack .one vol 500k for each channel no nfb for guitar.
Looking at purchasing a PrimaLuna Dialogue 5, PP amplifier at 36 Watts per channel. Paired with 94 db tower speakers rated at 250 Watts. Should I go with it vs. a smaller Watt SET amp like a Decware Zen Triode? I like the idea of auto-biasing with the PrimaLuna and some of its built-in protection.
Your speakers are relatively efficient, but unless you won't ever want to really crank the volume, the Zen Triode is probably still underpowered for a "one-and-only" power amp. Might be great for you if you have a relatively powerful solid-state backup. That said, I've never listened to a Zen Triode, so I've never probed its limits. And I think there's a long waiting list.
@@Lancaster_Hi-Fi Thank you Lancaster Hi-Fi. I did pick up a Primaluna amp today and will be connecting it for the first time. Still have 50 W and a 70 W SS receivers. Enjoy your channel and appreciate the time you put in.
Thanks, and I hope you've been enjoying your Primaluna. Please report! How does it sound?
@@Lancaster_Hi-Fi It's been working out fine. Not a holographic sound but damn good. I added a graphic EQ for fun. Lossless streaming might tip the scales to great but I'm still rolling with Spotify.
One thing at a time, right?
please tell me a really good single ended triode class A el34 amplifier to go buy❓
Check out the Skunkie Designs channel. The creator of that channel has been selling single-ended EL34 amps, I believe.
hi i made a single end kt66 in triode connection i am thinking about negative feedback ,global feddback or local feedback what do you think,some likes local feedback
Try whatever! I don't have experience with every configuration.
Interesting informnation but i could not see definition what is "distortion machine". I. What is the exact device you daily use to measure distortions? I hope mentioned ear sensations is joke?
Agree......
I'm just referring to known facts. Triodes generally produce more even harmonics. (Pentodes more odd harmonics, so single-ended pentode amps without negative feedback are rare.) Push-pull circuits cancel out even harmonics (and power supply hum!). Negative feedback reduces distortion. I recommend _Valve Amplifiers_ by Morgan Jones. I've learned a lot from that book.
What "ear sensations"? Sorry, I don't understand what you're referring to.
@@Lancaster_Hi-Fi Fact is happening which we can point to everybody so they can instantly see it or we instantly prove it beyond doubt. Fact beyond doubt we can call "fact".
So called "known" facts are only perceived informations from somebody who ususaly heard it i from third person an never proof it by himself. Did You assured yourself that author of that book proven something by himself or he put long list of source literature ? All of them have long lists of sources at end? I am different - if I asy I know it means I checked it by myself - and I in each time I can prove it to anybody. so pls do not tell me to read something I do not have reason to trust.
I am confident I could write book about audio which would be much more interesting ( I resigned from my membership in AES after I learned I do not gain from them but they gain from me and I need to pay for it).
Due to somebody think he got knowledge by reading or hearing he treat it as "known fact" in opposite to "fact" If he describes fact he should honestly proof it or show, not to point the books.
That is the reason why You honestly used termin "known fact" . Do yu see the difference? "Known facts" are presented by older ladies from neighborhood who learned from their friends
@@Lancaster_Hi-Fi Ear sensation is what You only can hear. Problem is that people hear more sound from tube amplifiers, do not know the reason but are keen to find explanation. They noticed only differntly looking tube characteristic. Then they came out with theory of even distortions haunting HI FI tube amplifiers. . Thing is that many producers of guitar amplifiers and musicians depend on deliberate even grade distortions made by usualy over controlled tube amplifiers for electric guitars.
.They do it for two reasons: because solid amplifiers cut good distortions which they obtain from block of effect . Not beacuse they have little distortions - they present perfectly taylored distortion effects greatly damped and that is their bad future, And second - beaciuse they do not use blocks and depend only on amplifier distortions which with over controll are are "nicer" than ubbearable overcontrolled solid. . That provided a lot of confuse about tubes Hi FI technology.
A am only asking abourt hard evidence from distortion meters how much is distortion in Hi FI tube amplifier at listening power,. Because ear sensation is no possible fully to transform to "technical data" and what you can use except ears? .
Fantastic content. I would enjoy your videos more without the angry emotion. Dry as dirt please - the content is great and needs no emotional bursts.
I have a splendid monotone, but most people do not find it engaging.
I spent my money ONLY on life performances , ......ZERO distortion, pin point imaging ( I reserve the best seat what ever the priice )...huge dynamics, perfect soundstage, detail retrieving , no noise ( I gonna rent the place for myself )........pure fidelity to perfection ........
I am the world's most happy audiophile.......and NO WAF !!!!
I get it, and I used to go to a lot of live shows, but I generally had to wear earplugs to avoid hearing loss. And often the sound systems suck. And if it's too loud, my own ears introduce distortion that's pretty unpleasant. My son and I went to a live show last night and had to move to the back room after a couple of songs. And I'm someone who generally likes to crank the volume and rock out at home. I've generally found live shows a mixed bag.
If you are going to employ negative feedback in a SET would it be better to forgo tubes and just use solid state?
Good question. I've never had a solid state single-ended amp. I think the Nelson Pass Amp-Camp Amp is single ended, and those have a following. My recollection is that the ACA has no negative feedback, though.
@@Lancaster_Hi-Fi 🤔… I think the ACA might have negative feedback.
Could be. I haven't looked into it.
I got one.... for my guitar lol.
Yeah, I think the first SET I build will be for my bass or my son's guitar. 🤘
Why would I want a SET tube amp ?
Be cause my next release of my 2 channel preamp into a series connected 6V6 audio amp will be a fabulous build........
Attached is the current version.
th-cam.com/video/NrSPlGQ-JAM/w-d-xo.html
Your funny
😁
My funny what? It's you're funny...
You don't.
no algorithm, I don't.
Aw, you just don't know it yet.
😮Only if you want to listen to distortion would anyone like the single ended triode sound.
Yes, that's basically the point of the video. 😁
Distortion or not, if it sounds "better" to someone, then it is better FOR THEM. Telling them it's technically not accurate is silly, frankly.
I'm not judging! And why is it silly to inform people about whether and why they might like something? Some people like that sweet SET sound, but it's not for everyone. I've had my desktop amp set to SET mode for the last couple of weeks, and I've enjoyed it.
if you can avoid global feedback its nice to avoid, but its not always possible and can help, and better keep it short to avoid unwanted oscilations. But what is point of these non practical video, this is just his view nothing with real audio devices engineering, bad aproach to understand oversimplified, no philosophy behind this too, waste of time.