Only reason to buy NOS tubes is because they’re generally made better and will last longer. Of course, that all goes all out the window if they cost a ton more than the modern tubes
The other thing that perpetuates the myth is this: First, tubes can and do go bad. If you've been playing your amp for months or years with bad preamp tubes you may not notice the amps less than stellar sound. You put in new tubes, maybe they aren't the same brand you had before, you turn on the amp with tubes that are actually working correctly and suddenly it sounds good and you figure it must be the new brand you've used. Wow! "Those Jim-Bob tubes are GREAT!!!" Maybe, but really it's just that your shit tubes sounded bad.
Me and my dad always have bought jj’s because euro tubes is local to us, they sound good to me. We’ve talked with the guy who ran sunn amps who now builds custom tube amps and he uses jj’s. Why? You ask, because euro tubes is local and he gets a good deal on tubes. The only major difference in tone is old worn out tubes vs new tubes
...A lot of players used to take brand new tubes, mostly power tubes but also preamp, and shake them to get them to break up a little sooner and round off the tone a bit. It works...you've heard it on a lot of classic albums...I wouldn't do it...but it does work.
Sadly, the things guitarists don't care about does the most for their sound: speakers and mics. You know, the stuff that actually makes the sound waves and records them?
@@BlueBarrier782I feel like most guitarist do care, but simply do not have the money. Priorities are on things like a good guitar or more equipment. While I won't say it is only professionals that should get it. The average guitarist probably would rather get more stuff then try to get the best stuff. Would I rather drop a thousand on one thing or get a bunch of stuff. I choose the later! The average mic and speaker is good enough.
i've always seen the tube change as a way to cutomize your amp, a way to fix the little things you want to improve about your amp. today, glenn made me question everything, i was already ready to come up with criticism but this video answers all questions and doubts about the matter. this is the best spectre sound video so far (and i've been subscribed for a while). great job glenn, and thank you. changing people's mind on the internet is not an easy thing!
@@SpectreSoundStudios the fact that you put time into this really shows, what really works for me is how you anticipated all the responses and questions you might have gotten (i was ready for the vintage/clean amp one!)
... well actually there is a study about "influences of color on the loudness judgement". Hearing is a psychoacoustic phenomenon. So while there will not be a measureable difference, people will tend to think your amp is up to 15% percent louder only because the amp is red, according to this study of the tum. This is how stupid we humans are. Google that study, that is ultra interesting
The bias is setup in the local feedback resistors, called self biasing, in small signal tubes like the one we are talking about. The frequency response is also a function of the tube resistors and caps. None of this will change if the circuit was properly designed. The idea in good design is to make the resistor bias and frequency performance dependent on the the local circuit itself and therefore be immune to variations in tube construction. The OPEN LOOP circuit which has none of these protections. Those will depend on the tube for the circuit's performance. (That is what a college education in electronic engineering will get you. I am an EE, Musician, Studio Owner, Equipment Designer.) So how swamped (technical term) the circuit is will determine the performance as outlined above. Changing a 12AX7 with another 12AX7 of another brand, in a properly designed circuit, will make no difference at all. The proper designed circuit depends very little on the actual tube other than for gain. You might be thinking of POWER output tubes with their ability to have a pot for the bias setting. There are a family of 9 pin tubes in the 12 - - 7 tubes. These are optimized for either Voltage Grain or Power Drive capability. The 12AX7 is one of the worst in the family. These were made for cheap 5 tube AM radios. These can cut back on the number of tubes that are needed in the AM radio. This is called Economics. The 12AX7 driving a high Z load will still have a lot of distortion, but lots of gain. If you replace that 12AX7 with a lower gain tube with a lot of drive capability like the 12AU7 then since this tube can drive more power into it's load without distortion, but with less gain, this will make the quality will go up and the loudness go down. Loudness and Tone is all about the circuit around the tube. This can be tested with an Analog Signal Analyzer. So the range of tube designs were meant to address these different requirements. You might want to examine the Decoupling circuits of each amp section. I updated mixing consoles by adding bigger Decoupling Caps. I checked the console with a Kick Drum Sample. This was causing the input of one channel to drive all the channels into saturation. These were cheap performance mixers.
It's nearly impossible to find a modern 12ax7 made in the last 5 years with a gain factor of 100. I think that's where a lot of people notice differences. The tubes aren't meeting spec and are very inconsistent.
Thanks, Glenn. All these years I couldn’t hear what everyone was going on about. I thought it was me. Turns out I was right, nothing much was happening. Great content, as ever.
I was expecting these results but it still amazed me how there's basically NO FRIKING DIFFERENCE. At least not a very noticeable one, specially in a mix. If you want to be picky go ahead and use different tubes but in reality no one in a audience will notice.
No one in the audience will notice much of anything. They sure won’t be able to tell you’re running your NOS Mullards and just tweaked the bias hotter! 😜
when I ask for tubes, I ask for *quality* tubes rather than some other aspect from some manufacturer or tube sortin company because I want tubes that work to spec not fucking magic beans. your #1 defense against bullshit is not just watching teardowns and tests but actually understanding a little of the thing being torn down and tested.
I mean, it's used as a justification because it's true. Apply it to tubes, gear, ability, etc. They just care about being entertained and we as musicians should concentrate on that. Entertain people, make the best music we can and stop caring about the things that will not accomplish those things.
Its funny because I changed my tubes because I suspected they were kinda weak. Sure enough a fresh set sounded great. More of everything. Tubes can get old and weak and still work and might drive you crazy while you're trying to figure out if something sounds different. Tube testers us what we should buy.
The biggest shock to me was how close the el34s were to 6l6s. That's nuts. It's nice to know how little the power tubes actually matter in regards to tone. Thanks for the scientific approach.
I have a 3ch Recto, and there is definitely a difference in in the overall EQ. I find the lows with 6L6's almost overbearing and the EL34's just right (for a recto). Also find the lows are more focused with EL34's. All JJ for my tests... Either way still sounds like a recto...
I wonder if the el34s or 6L6s were actually being pushed hard enough to start clipping. I wouldn't expect much difference if they aren't being pushed hard. Also curious to know if biasing each set 'properly' would change their response. I doubt you're going to hear a different EQ response, but I would expect different output level and clipping point. MAYBE even hearing clipping at different frequencies first.
EL34 grids are approximately twice as sensitive as a 6L6, and will put out a bit more power in an otherwise identical circuit. Most amps that run one type will run the other, so you can experiment with both to get the response that you want out of your volume knob. It’s a lot like adjusting the gain of the power amp itself
Yesss. I've been waiting for this video since the Klark Technik Review. It amazes how people (even smart ones) want to validate their purchases without considerable evidance. I hope you'll release the tracks to those so I can show this at school to all my classmates and teachers as well who might say something about TH-cam not being enough due to its compression algorithm.
Especially if your amp is made on a different continent or country. The amp builder has no idea what the actual reading in the wall voltage is in your country versus what the official rating is. They just try to get close to the official rating and perhaps adjust a bit for the variance they've been reported with, and if an american builder sells an amp to europe, every country is different even if they're generally in the same range so you just get an average guess. By correctly biasing an amp you ensure that it sounds like the builder intended it to sound like. Funnily enough, a change of tubes might actually get the bias closer.
Guys, just turn the amp upside down and play riffs. Turn the bias knob until it sounds how you want. Then check the voltage and current and make sure it is within the acceptable range so you don't blow your tubes up.
An incredible eye-opener. As of now, on this day, i solemnly swear to never smell another cork again. Thanks for showing me the light. Furthermore, the mic placement example really deserved it's own mini video demonstration because it's a very valuable piece of recording knowledge that has a much more dramatic effect than id ever thought. This is a great video. Just Excellent. Loved the null comparisons as well. That told me everything.
The only difference I've noticed playing is the initial attack of the note with different tubes. I'm pretty sure it has to do with the nature and science behind the tube itself. I could be wrong but maybe you could leave some insight? I think I heard it as well in your testing especially doing the null test. I love Solid states, tubes, and plugins and use all the above so no biasness is included with this thought.
Yes, changing your amp's tubes changes the amp's sound. One more YT video against the dozens already demonstrating that isn't going to change the conclusion. Among tubes models, there are all manner of frequency emphasis and clarity that can be had. A JJ 6L6 will sound muddy compared to a Svetlana 6L6, for example - the difference is pretty night-and-day. And different tubes deliver different amounts of gain. Some will breakup earlier while others will give more headroom. There are some select amp models which don't experience much change in sound when their tubes are changed. The Fender Super Reverb is one such amp. The Joyo Bantamp would be another. Other amps experience a huge change when swapping tube models. My Orange and Marshall amps, and my Mesa power amps experience significance change in tone and headroom based on which tubes are installed in them. Swapping the 2203 from EL34 to KT88 completely changed the shape of the tone and the lead channel. There are tubes that I simply can't get the sound I love from.
This is THE most thorough application of the scientific method outside of a formal scientific or academic setting. I'm sending this to my brother who's an educator. This needs to be shown to kids in middle school!
I thought it was Fairy tears, Unicorn Farts, and Dragon's breath? Do you mean psychoacoustics and moods change the human's perception? Thanks for doing this, I've been looking forward to this video!
Thank you Glenn! I can’t imagine how long this took! The funny thing is how much a slight mic placement can change tone yet people would rather go on and on about tubes.
I get a warm glow when Glenn does science. When a recording engineer can grasp the scientific method and get what the results mean, nobody has an excuse to ignore it. This does indeed bust the whole tube myth. Right up the arse. With a dry cactus! Nice one, Glenn!
I was surprised by these results. I was expecting that changing the valves would make a very small difference but I wasn’t expecting how little difference it actually made. Great video Glenn!
So, I've mentioned it to you before: the differences I've noticed, doing the same tests as you, found no more than +/-2dB of difference. It's present, but it's not super game changing the way changing the speaker would be.
It was inevitable that the popularisation of recording through the great cheap gear that's available today would create the need for a Science Messiah™ to hunt down and destroy all the related snake oil that's been building up for the last 40 years. Good on ya for taking on the challenge Glenn.
I mean, the null tests didn't completely null out the sounds on some tests, there was still some noise there, that means it *is* objectively changing the tone, but I would agree that it's not very much at all.
I too have been playing on a JOYO Zombie for a few months now. After about two months of taking the thing through its paces, it started to sound weak. I replaced the tube and that seemed to perk it right up. I dunno if my particular unit simply had a faulty tube or if I just overused the heck out of it. It's been good ever since though.
@@nOT_sURE08 its more so that the tubes they come with just... suck. Ive got a Joyo Firebrand (fireball?) and swapping out the no name tube for a basic Tung Sol made a huge difference in performance. Swapping between the tungsol and a JJ I had laying around, however, did not make a significant difference.
In before the "Glenn, you cheated by using a reamp box and an impulse response!" Those comments should be automatically nominated for "Butthurt of the Week".
NOS tubes, otherwise known as "New Old Stock," do in fact have a slight difference in the gain structure regarding one's EGO and upper harmonic content of their amp snobbery.
I see what you did there, but one time I changed my tubes and it sounded like Jesus was whispering in my ears. That was back in nineteen ninety eight when the undertaker threw mankind off hеll in a cell, and plummeted sixteen feet through an announcer's table.
Thank you very much. I have been one of those " The tube brand makes a huge difference" guys forever but i cant really dispute what you did just there so im not even going to try.
This was incredibly informative Glenn. I blindly believed the tube logic for years because that's what I was taught. But armed with this new information backed by reputable testing I see how wrong I was. If nothing else I now know if the tubes in my amp start to fail then the stock chinese ones I pulled out of it will make perfectly acceptable replacements. Thanks for saving me money that I can put towards something more beneficial!
i DO play with feeling. "pissed off/angsty rage" is a feeling. oh, also, changing your tubes will have about as much effect as changing which outlet your bass player is putting the butter knife in...again. wanna change your tone? try the dials on the front of the amp.
Wasn't expecting to hear much of a pronounced difference, but it's definitely there. The mullards and electro harmonix seemed to have less high end, and volume when compared to the JJ's and stock joyos. Eye's closed listening on neumann kh120's. I switched to my macbook pro speakers and still heard the difference. Interesting stuff Glen! Thanks!
The point is that it's not worth the investment and you're better off investing in other parts of your signal chain to get the result you want. - Get different strings for your guitar. - Get different pick-ups for your guitar. - Use a different pick. - Buy or upgrade a cab with speakers aimed at the kinda sound you want. - Invest time into practice instead of playing the lottery.
@@SpectreSoundStudios, yeah, I mostly play dirty and sometimes the difference I'm looking for is sparkle vs no sparkle. In an amp that doesn't have a presence control that difference can be nice. I tend to find that the New Sensor EHX-branded tubes tend to lack any sparkle at all while the other New Sensor tubes (Sovtek, Mullard, Tung-Sol, Svetlana) tend to be better with that. But, basically, your null tests pretty much confirmed what I thought about the differences being small but still there and that the JJ tubes are simply louder (since they're the closest to the actual published 12AX7 spec). The big difference is that some companies throw a bunch of components inside a glass tube and slap a label on it while that label may not mean what they think it means.
Coming from the speaker and headphone world I can tell you There is a change, there are tubes that sound warmer, others sound brighter, others are bassier, others are more mid forward, others can change the stereo soundstage a bit…
@@SpectreSoundStudios of course I can tell you anything but you can test yourself tbh if you're willing to buy a speaker/headphone tube amp and ''tube roll.'' Just from my experience owning tube amps a quick example, Electro Harmonix 6H30pi tubes sound completely different from RCA 1626 tubes.
Nice test. Good to see someone actually use the scientific method. The responsiveness where a tube starts to move from clean to distorted is what many players mean by feel. Your test seems in line with this. It's certainly what I'm looking for when I'm dealing in an amp. "Feel" also gets used to refer to "time feel" as in how a player moves around their timing expressively. This seems to be more pronounced in certain genres.
I would agree with the stories about a difference, but only with V30s. I didn't notice a difference at all really with H75 Creambacks. I suspect it is due to the way that the frequency profile of the V30 is impacted by the stiffness of the cone due to the stiff doping used on the speaker, and when it breaks down a bit that changes. I didn't notice a change with the H75s but their frequency response is different. I hated the V30s until I broke them in
IDK- I love the scientific nature of this test, but in the end he actually seems to demonstrate that there in fact is a difference between tubes- especially mullards and jjs. I mean, no sensible person expects a HUGE difference. It's not like you swap tubes and your fender becomes a marshal- it's just subtle but noticeable differences in volume, compression levels, and resulting slight frequency differences. It makes sense that tube differences are less about tone, and more about how the power handling- volume- of the tube changes the way your amp works. When you listen to this test, it's clear that the mullards are quieter, and that they push the amp less, so sound smoother, while the JJs are loud and brighter- perhaps because they push the amp more. Overtime I've learned that I prefer JJS- they just make my amp sound right to me- and this test basically confirmed that. There's only a subtle difference- but what else would anyone really expect? I know people online tend to hyperbolize, but that doesn't mean that there's no difference- it's just a very subtle difference.
@@SpectreSoundStudios Ah yeah- I assume you are joking. 8:41. On the Joyo it was more obvious- maybe because fewer components means that each component will have more of an impact? But wow- you actually responded to my comment! Thanks! Love your videos- keep em coming!!!! and have a great holiday!
Listening through headphones, pretty noticeable difference in EQ between the tubes on the Joyo Zombie. The JJ is bright. The others sound a little scooped. Thought the 12AU7 would have sounded different, it didn't even sound quieter. Thanks for the effort that went into this.
I agree the jj was noticeably brighter. Ehx also had some tone shift in there. (on the joyo demo). I'm not a huge tube guy and definitely not gonna swap anything out over that subtle difference, but it was there.
Yeah, there is a huge difference between EL34 and 6L6. 6550 are similar to 6L6 also. I've used all of these back to back in an Orange Rockerverb. Additionally, I can set the bias, so I'm aware that the hotter bias sounds better for cleans and the colder bias sounds better for high-gain. I already ran this experiment in my basement 10 years ago.
Exactly! I learned this when I realized my blackstar had el34 Vs 6l6. I've had alot of different amps over the last 20 years. I think it's the circuit,pickups and speaker personally
Brilliant! Well done. For what its worth, it makes a huge difference to sound stage and 'relative' tonal balance across a very wide frequency range in my various high-end tube audio components (phono sections, pre-amps, and amps) but they are are called upon to produce the full gamut of the frequency spectrum, from 35hz to 20,000hz, which is to say it is changing everything it has authority over. In this test the contribution of the drums and bass is independent of the tube change and effectively masking rather than revealing whatever effect it might have caused to psychoacoustical conditions beyond a guitars reach. In high end audio application it works to variably conjure sound-stage, left to right, and front to back and air and space into the soundstage in terms of the separation of performers, and their image solidity within the soundstage. Each presentation is different but not tonally so. Additionally, the frequency range of an electric guitar 'by itself' is not wide enough nor set against a backdrop of other frequencies sufficiently well to provide context for whatever slight tonal impingements it 'may' have wrought. I hear no significant difference when I swap preamp tubes in 'most' guitar amp circuits. Power tubes are a different matter, but mostly in terms of volume and balance of the entire frequency range. The guitar sits basically in the same range as the voice, which is no test for a capable audio system, except that its honest representation of it and makes your voice (guitar) sound just as bad as you suspect you do. LOL! I've played my guitar through more than $65K worth of audio electronics, and its not pretty. Most of us prefer a flattering fiction to a less flattering truth, and that includes guitar tone.
I'm so glad to see null testing finally making it into Glenn's arsenal. Level matching of course will affect the whole thing.. The proper way to do it is to adjust the levels in post to produce as small residual as possible. That is the actual change in tone. edit: overall, i found more changes than i expected, of course, they were roughly in the magnitudes i expected. My background is in EE and i should be able to design a 5150 from the scratch (should be in theory.. practice might be different... ) and the difference really is in the circuit design, its topology, where it has filters (accidental or deliberate), what compromises had to be made and so on. Transducers are still the biggest variable and the worst piece of kit in the chain. Mics and speakers are.. lightyears behind electronics, specially solid state electronics. If you can get the sound from a solid state, even if it is minutely off, you will have that sound forever and can reproduce it much easier. Tubes are great but they are not the only way to get that sound.. Blind testing, null testing etc are very good tools to remove our own pre-dispositions from the equation. You might be really surprised for the results.. and may be able to do it in the future with minimal investing and without any equipment lottery where you buy new things trying to find something you don't know what it is yet. It is like playing darts in the dark. Other things that don't matter: tonewood, power conditioners (unless you actually have actual issues), cables, converter preamps, samplerate above 44.1k, dynamic range above 16bit in playback, above 20bits in capture, noise floor below 80dB in most cases, THD below 0.5% (human perception is around 3-5%), component burn-in time, system synergy where everything affects everything else etc etc etc.
I mean cheap guitar cables 100% make a sonic difference compared to higher end ones. Easy and obvious to test (they even have directionality). For like balanced cables they do not make a difference at all though as long as put together correctly.
@@Aaezil I disagree about the cables - yeah, the signal can be weakened by the resistance of the cable if it's really long and thin (and I don't even know what the ratio is where you'd start to notice it), but otherwise I'd say any difference will be caused by external interference or placebo.
This is quite a brilliant test. I would love to see more of these. On topic, imagine if musicians focused more time and money on Songcraft and skill development instead of a small adjustable in their gear. Just imagine the records that could be made. One can dream.
Finally someone did this test the way I've always wanted to. Glenn has been rather unscientific in some of his previous "scientific method" videos but this one did everything I can think of right. Good show. Conclusion: There IS a difference, but it's mostly level, not tone. Nowhere near the world-changing difference forums make it out to be, but it's not TOTALLY untrue- it's just not what these cork sniffers say it is.
The gain factor of a 12ax7 should be 100 - but in reality, that's rarely the case with modern tubes. When the gain factor changes so does the sound. Especially so in a close to source situation like a preamp / input. In a phase inverter role, it's really difficult to hear any difference - it's more about reliability - but sure enough a NOS 12au7 will not measure or work the same as a modern production version - because the spec is different. With Pentodes and beam tetrodes, and kinked tetrodes they each run at different plate voltages and require different biasing - depending on the circuit - so yes, they do sound different and yes, they do measure differently. How much that changes the output depends on a lot of factors. But generally, the more negative feedback in the circuit the less detectable the changes.such as in most Class AB amps. When we get into Class A or single ended triode type arrangements tube changes make a massive difference - especially when closest to the source like a v1 change in most guitar amps. But by the time we get to the power tubes so much has already happened in most guitar amps that differences are going to very minor.
The title had me like “Nooo, he’s about to unravel my whole reasoning behind Blackstar’s ‘TrueValvePower’ feature set”.. but as a AES Audio Specialist, I have both doubts & suspicions about voltage sag and SolidState\Tube hybrid tech
@@CyberChrist Its a patented technology which helps emulate tubes within the solid state domain. It does this by altering the frequency response depending onthe dynamic range not just altering the frequency and dynamic response separately.
@@zaldinor9 I have a id30tvp, that knob is pretty effective in changing the tone for sure. the boss nextone does something similar. the blackstar is a great little amp for the money.
@@zaldinor9 I've read an article on perfect emulation of tube overdrive using a concept of "virtual scalable diode", but with any opamps and no tuning required whatsoever (unlike with plain JFETs). Difference from original was the same as in any two units, due to 5% component tolerances
Thanks for doing a fairly scientific comparison like this. I've been playing guitar for about 40 years. I've also been a scientist and electrical engineer for a bit over 25 years. For every proper test like this, there are 10,000 internet posts reinforcing all the guitar amp myths that have evolved, and it's hard to not be influenced by them. The comparison between EL34 and 6L6 once again reminded me that it's amp design, not tube choice that really dictates how an amp sounds. I have however noted a change in a particular amp of mine when I went from EL34 to KT88. But that's a rather significant change. I found I had trouble with the amp reproducing too much low-end with the KT88s.
Thanks Glenn, professional as usual, the Synergy example explains everything. I could hear some small changes but honestly, moving an EQ or mic will do much more difference than swapping tubes, but of course "Tubes fanatic" will always have something to say!!!
This is brilliant - wish TH-cam had recommended this video before I just ordered a premium set of tubes for my amp... Did a swap yesterday and the only difference I can perceive from the stock ruby tubes is volume.
Glenn, you are a legend man!!! We guitarists should start comparing things by just saying "it's slightly different!" instead of acting like we have found the secret component to our guitar tones! From my experience, guitarists are the number 1 myth creators in the universe. You have responded to them in the best possible way :) Excellent stuff!!! PS: If I had to go for a myth creation session, I would preach SHUGUANG! Because it's difficult to pronounce :) Cheers Osman
This is exactly my experience with tube swapping. I swapped out a Shuguang 12AX7 for several variants of 12AX7 and heard nothing, but percieved a gain/breakup difference when I substituted a lower-gain Sovtek 5751. Still sounds like the same amp.
Hey I did the exact same test myself with an Orange Micro Terror. I swapped the stock 12ax7 for a JJ 5751 and there was a drop in raw gain, but probably within the range of what the gain knob could produce anyway. Then I swapped in a Tung Sol 12ax7 and it was a bit louder than the stock at the same volume knob setting, but tone was basically identical. Certainly no huge change in sound like a lot of 'experts' would have you believe. Cheers!
Same. I went from a Tung Sol 12AX7 to a JJ 5751 in the PI and it dipped the gain just enough so that I could push the whole pre a bit harder for the same output, resulting in a more pleasing sound. You can't just dismiss level changes as irrelevant to tone. The whole point of some of these options is how they function in the gain staging of the preamp and headroom and output factor are fundamental elements in that.
So here is this... I just swapped my preamp tubes in my amp after 3 years, the amp is a Laboga The Beast Plus 30w, with 2 x 12ax7 and 4 x EL84. I only swapped the two preamp tubes to the very same JJ ECC83S tubes that the amp came with and instantly I could notice the change, so I swapped back and forth between old and new ones and as per my ears I could notice the following with the newer ones: 1. More compression 2. Slightly less gain, gain level pot needs to be higher to compensate. 3. Slightly less bass overall (bass level pot needs to be pushed higher to compensate the lack of bass). 4. More highs (more piercing sound), old tubes sounds "warmer" meaning highs weren't so piercing. Decreasing high level pot makes eases the piercing high... at the cost of the "good" high. Why did I change? I could notice that on heavy chugging with open chords with low tuning (Drop B) the guitar sound started to sound more and more like a fuzz pedal instead of the distorted sound the amp gives when not playing that hard - the moment you soften up a little bit your play, sound comes back to normal. This is not happening on the newer preamp tubes. So there's my two cents on it...
So so much talk about vacuum tubes but I have not seen anyone explain what speakers are needed for them. Speakers also play an important role, but we are not talking about specific models for this. Thanks for the invested and beautiful video.
The amp circuit is the most crucial part. But, the tubes are more important than Glenn suggests. Try an Orange Rockerverb loaded with EL34s and then loaded with 6550s. You'll then realize Glenn is an idiot. Sorry Glenn..
@@123lowp the only difference could be the bias to the specific internal capacitance of a particular tube. Sorry guitar doood, I'll take my ee degree & years of professional experience with scientific instrumentation over your deluded pothead bullshit.
I was shocked how different the different tubes sounded in the Joyo. Then Glenn mentioned it was a level difference and my mind was blown. I listened to it again and it seems when the volume dropped down I associated more of the bass tone with the guitars. Kind of blended them together. Wild
I was expecting almost no change (as an engineer for over two decades), but there was a little more tone change than I expected. That all said, we're talking really minor changes throughout. In my opinion, go EHX tubes and stop worrying. There's little appreciable difference and the EHX tubes seemed to be right in the middle each time. Thanks for doing the 6L6 vs EL34 test, by the way!
I've tried EL34s, KT88s, 6550s, and 6L6s in a Diezel Herbert, VH4, and Orange Rockerverb. There is a difference between all of them. Glen is misguided. My friend is an amp tech and he taught me how replace tubes and bias them, so I tried all this stuff 10 years ago.
Yes, tube choice will not matter while playing chunky metal. Tubes are just one small aspect in a chain of things that can effect tone. I've heard players say they can feel a difference with power tube changes and it's subtle. I haven't experimented that much but I think the tonal differences are more dramatic with preamp tubes and it's more about headroom. I can't tell the difference in power or preamp tubes with clean guitars or heavy saturation. It's at that slight breakup where I think they shine but it's still subtle. There's a reason that SRV changed out preamp tubes on his amps for more headroom and Ed wanted 6ca7's instead of el34's in the power section of the one Marshall he recorded the first 6 with. He later went with 6L6's and I think that may have been a headroom thing as well, in that the el's breakup sooner than the 6L's. My amp tech actually told me that. Ultimately, I don't think tubes are as much about dramatic tone shift as much as feel when playing and headroom.
Although it is not going to be as big of a deal as people claim, or put differently: power tubes usually aren't biased properly by the amp manifacturer anyway.
It does make a difference. I have a mesa .50 cal+ that i have had since the early 90's and I recently had it recapped/tubed and the power tubes were swapped to sovteks. I could barely bring myself to play the amp afterwards! After nearly a year of screwing around, playing my other gear I went and changed the 6L6s back to mesas and I am extremely happy to say I have my amp back now. It may not always be a super noticeable change but in this case it was very noticeable. Maybe it was a biasing problem, maybe a bad tube, but it definitely validated the importance of tubes to me.
I like the null test results, I have tube swapped to modify the tone of my amp admittedly a Mesa dual rec sounds and reacts much the same, biggest difference was the poweramp threshold between el34s vs 6l6s I preferred the bass response on the 6l6 in that amp. Interesting video though 👍🏻
For the sake of rigor: Most of the tests failed the null test as the result was not pure silence or something with a flat frequency distribution. BUT, the difference is so small it doesn't really matter, especially when you can EQ that difference away by accidentally touching the treble knob or having a butterfly fly past your microphone.
The differences were not in tone. Tubes are not eq devices, but changing the circuitry for each tube could make the relative response between them closer.
Very informative, thanks for doing this. I was expecting to hear a difference between 6L6 vs EL34 with 6L6 having a bit more headroom. Looks like the "American" vs "British" sound has little to do with the tubes and can be fully attributed to the amp design.
Watch some other videos that compare 6L6 vs. EL34 vs. KT88 in the same amp. No idea why they sound so similar here (I suspect the Two Notes is adding some coloring to try to make them sound the same), but in reality, they don't.
I could have told you that already. The whole american vs british sound is a superstrange distinction anyway. Do Vox, Orange and Marshall sound more alike than Fender? I would say Vox sound as different from Marshall as Fender does. But even if we're just talking about Marshall and Fender, are the tubes really the difference? Fender is most famous for combos, Marshall for stacks. Fender used Jensen speakers, Marshall used Celestion. Marshall used difference resistor and capacitor values in the tone stack. Different values for the cathode bias resistor bypass capacitor, etc. Why would anyone believe that the tubes are what make the difference?
@@cynicanal111 perhaps the other videos show a larger difference because they were less carefull. I have seen plenty of such videos and none of them take what I would call a scientific approach. Not saying that Glenns approach is, there is certainly room for improvement in his methodology.
I'm actually shocked that there was ANY difference at all between the "no label" and Shuguang tubes in the 5150 since the "no label" tubes are Shuguangs these days.
This is just like the tonewood debate: Is there a difference? Yes but subtle. It is worth the money to change? You probably get a bigger difference just working on your technique or even getting some new strings.
tonewood bs has been debunked sooooo many times, decent hardware and electronics will have much more impact on your tone than what kind of wood it's made of.
I used to be a touring musician for 5 years. I played a tube amp for 4 of those years. I always thought tube was the way to go. The last year of touring, I played a Boss Katana. I was tired of lugging a heavy amp around. The Katana is lighter, no maintnance. Now, every time I play a tube amp, I cant get the same warmth and feel that I get with my Katana. Guitarists would even come up to me and ask about my rig and tone... they couldn't believe it was a solid state Katana. I even fooled my sound guy who has been playing tube amps since the 70s. I never thought this would be the case... Now with the Katana Gen 3 my tone much warmer. Plus, my tone is the same at every gig and no tubes means no maintenance required. The guitar world will continue to believe tubes are superior, but it seems like "cork sniffing" to some degree. I'll be making a test video on this subject in my channel soon.
Glenn, You are a legend. Thank you. If tubes had a sound, manufacturers would publish frequency response curves, just like they do for speakers and microphones. But they don't. Because tubes DO NOT have a sound. Never did. And the industry always knew it too.
My dad was a radio and tv engineer in the 60's and 70's. I grew up around valve (tube) equipment. I don't have half the knowledge he had, but there are many factors to consider in valves and their circuits. Also, as valves are harder to come by these days, and their manufacture is less widespread, this also adds a "dynamic" if we can call it that. The reason I'm commenting though, is that during the 90's there was a bit of a valve drought here in the UK so we were looking into different sources to obtain them and one way we started to get them was finding ex Soviet Military Surplus valves. You needed to work out which ones were equivalent (or at least nearby) the valves you required, and then, because these valves were built like a T-72, mount a converter to locate the valves. The amp guy in the guitar shop I used to work in did quite a few amps with these valves, and I remember there were 2 that stood out. There was something about those Soviet valves that were entirely different (they weren't broken, for starters) to the ordinary valves we were using here. The clean sounds were almost "piano-like." Very forward, very middy and warm. We repaired an old 70's home-brew bass amp using them too, this thing looked like it could jump-start Frankenstein, but the sound 🫨 Don't get me wrong, I'm not preaching the whole "valves make *all* the difference" thing, but we certainly did find some differences albeit through the necessity of the great valve drought of 1993/4
Thanks so providing true tests and information. I ,more than likely, need to change the tubes in my amp because I forgot to turn it off for a few days a couple times. It definitely doesn't sound like UT used to after that
So I just made dirt cheap tube distortion, based on a schematic from LOOKMUMNOCOMPUTER... i am a pretty noob with electronics, but know my way with audio... so with this circuit and diffrent tubes there is a really big diffrence in distortion. Where a China 12at7b sounds fucking amazing in this, a fcking china tube! I also scavanged a telefunken tube, and this boosted the volume quite a bit, with some clean distortion. The other china 12ax7 and Electro harmonix sounded like crap. But there are some pretty significant diffrences in the sounds that come out.... maby it’s just the stage where the tube is being used, and how it’s being used. But the finding is pretty satisfying, as I am planning to make a synthesizer with a lot of tube saturators in them. If you really want, shoot me a message, and I will be happy to make a video demonstrating the diffrent sounds of these tubes! Still love ur videos, and honest gear reviews! Stay safe! Alain From Holland :D
Swapping preamp tubes in my micro dark did absolutely nothing to the tone but it did change the overall volume of the amp which I wasn't expecting at all.
@@TargetHHH101 I am nothing short of impressed with how it sounds and acts. Through the little 1x8 it's a train wreck, but plug it into a 1x12 or a 2x12 and it comes alive.
I had a good friend, who sadly passed away a few years ago, but he was an amp builder, as well as he was in with all the bigger "boutique" guys. He always said to me the circuit determines the over all tone. I always took the preamp tubes as is how the amp will break up. Some tubes I feel like have more gain on hand than others but not a tonal shift. 99% of the time you will never notice a power tube swamp without actually cranking the amp to even get the power tubes to break up and distort. But for me the only difference I ever heard was some tubes let more through than others. Example, the jj 6l6 vs the tungsol 6l6 only difference I heard is the jjs seem to let more low end through. But it wasn't that the tungsol sounded different just changed how the amp was responding. This also proves that the block letter 5150 wasn't any different than the script versions. Anyways great video!!! I love the science test!! Just like what Kristian kole does!! Keep it up man!!! I would love to talk gear and pick your brain with you!! Have a great day glen!!
That is very cool and the null method is excellent! The volume variation makes perfect sense given these are mechanically complex devices (lots of bent wire & stuff) that would be very difficult to make with microscopic tolerances. And even a small difference in the distance between the anode and cathode must cause a measurable difference between the amount of electrons crossing (ie the output voltage). I was actually expecting that this effect would be frequency-dependent as well but this video proves that this isn't the case. All electronic components would have some tolerance in their spec (even simple resistors resistors may have as much as 10% in the resistance value, a 2kOhm resistor may turn out to be anywhere between 1.8 or 2.2kOhm). Historically the way to deal with this was to get a few more and measure them. With tubes / valves you can just listen to the (really) subtle differences if you have a couple spare ones. They don't have to be expensive vintage ones. Is one of them giving you a little more drive? Is another one giving you less drive but more headroom before breaking up? I had two instances when swapping the single 12AX7 in the preamp made a difference for me. I've got some 90s/early 2000s gear with the original tubes. Two of these are nearly identical Hartke bass amp heads I bought a couple of years ago (a HA2000 and HA3500, both with a single preamp tube, different wattage solid state power stage). I used to play these without any effects (other than maxing the gain on the tube pre and using the built-in compressor). When I dug hard into the strings on my Warwick bass, the HA2000 had some nice edge of break-up sound. When I did that to the HA3500 that just somehow lacked balls. I was initially stumped by this until eventually I decided to swap the tubes between the two preamps and this moved the ballsy driven tube sound to the HA3500. Encouraged I bought a new Sovtek tube to replace the meh sounding 20 years old one and the new one sounded even better, with just a tad more drive (I did swap it back a couple of times to be sure I wasn't imagining it). Later I discovered that slapping a bog-standard guitar tube screamer pedal in front as a boost makes far far more difference than swapping the tube for a very slightly hotter one but the £25 was still worth it IMO. Another case was with my old ART SGX2000 - a 90s digital multi effect unit with a tube preamp I've owned for a while and always hated the tube sound of. I've swapped that with a JJ and liked it better immediately. It was just "smoother" without noticeably less drive. But why is that? Is it because the old unbranded tube, although appeared to work fine, was 30 years old? Or because in the 90s the main manufacturers of 12AX7 were post-soviet Russia and China and neither were exactly renown for their quality control at the time? Or was I just unlucky with normal tolerances? I don't know but at least after watching this I have a better idea why the difference occurs. So thanks for doing this test :)
You'd think that people would be happy about not needing to buy rare, discontinued valves to get vintage tones.
Only reason to buy NOS tubes is because they’re generally made better and will last longer. Of course, that all goes all out the window if they cost a ton more than the modern tubes
Lets hope. More of the goods for us in the know.
My friend nothing beats an el34 mullards made in the 50s or 60s .please.stopthis digital crap.
@@vintagetone22 hmmm that might good to power my penis when I have erectile dysfunction. Probably makes me last longer?
But then how will I feel like I'm better than others without building technique?
But there IS a noticeable difference! When I changed the tubes in my amp, the FEEL of my _wallet_ was so much lighter!
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@Overpaid Producer Gotcha!
Hell yeah geesh 😆 🤣
But was it warmer?
Oh man! You really got me to crack up there.
Camera shifts looking kickass man!!!
Thanks for that advice, good sir! It really sped up my editing!
@@SpectreSoundStudios 😂
Happy to see people helping each other out! Ola I was asking Glen about his thoughts on the Evertune.. Has he done a Solar guitar review?
@@LayMyBurdenDown I think he has. Look for studio workhorse caption if I remember correct.
i wanna keep this comment at 69 likes
The other thing that perpetuates the myth is this: First, tubes can and do go bad. If you've been playing your amp for months or years with bad preamp tubes you may not notice the amps less than stellar sound. You put in new tubes, maybe they aren't the same brand you had before, you turn on the amp with tubes that are actually working correctly and suddenly it sounds good and you figure it must be the new brand you've used. Wow! "Those Jim-Bob tubes are GREAT!!!" Maybe, but really it's just that your shit tubes sounded bad.
Seen it happen.
I'm sure this scenario s a major force behind tube myths...
Me and my dad always have bought jj’s because euro tubes is local to us, they sound good to me. We’ve talked with the guy who ran sunn amps who now builds custom tube amps and he uses jj’s. Why? You ask, because euro tubes is local and he gets a good deal on tubes. The only major difference in tone is old worn out tubes vs new tubes
...A lot of players used to take brand new tubes, mostly power tubes but also preamp, and shake them to get them to break up a little sooner and round off the tone a bit. It works...you've heard it on a lot of classic albums...I wouldn't do it...but it does work.
This makes the most sense
The mic movement changes were crazy eye opening.
Sadly, the things guitarists don't care about does the most for their sound: speakers and mics.
You know, the stuff that actually makes the sound waves and records them?
@@BlueBarrier782I feel like most guitarist do care, but simply do not have the money. Priorities are on things like a good guitar or more equipment.
While I won't say it is only professionals that should get it. The average guitarist probably would rather get more stuff then try to get the best stuff.
Would I rather drop a thousand on one thing or get a bunch of stuff. I choose the later! The average mic and speaker is good enough.
i've always seen the tube change as a way to cutomize your amp, a way to fix the little things you want to improve about your amp. today, glenn made me question everything, i was already ready to come up with criticism but this video answers all questions and doubts about the matter. this is the best spectre sound video so far (and i've been subscribed for a while). great job glenn, and thank you. changing people's mind on the internet is not an easy thing!
Thanks, man! I finally had the chance to put some time in on a video & this was the result...
@@SpectreSoundStudios the fact that you put time into this really shows, what really works for me is how you anticipated all the responses and questions you might have gotten (i was ready for the vintage/clean amp one!)
yeah I think build quality and life cycle are probably the things to look for in tubes. especially if your gigging with a tube amp.
it's easy when they are idiots
But what type of paint was on the amp? That’s a huge difference in sound only the most experienced would notice.
Don't forget the 'tone wood' amp head cabinet construction! It matters!.... lol, I can't believe I just typed that.
Tome paint adds 20% more tone to the amp aha
@@allanallan4791 LOL
... well actually there is a study about "influences of color on the loudness judgement". Hearing is a psychoacoustic phenomenon. So while there will not be a measureable difference, people will tend to think your amp is up to 15% percent louder only because the amp is red, according to this study of the tum. This is how stupid we humans are. Google that study, that is ultra interesting
@ Makes absolute sense.
This test is complete bunk, everyone knows changing tubes doesn't work with a red guitar.
Now that was funny! And probably accurate, too.
Hahaha 🤣
Facts.
Good one!
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
The bias is setup in the local feedback resistors, called self biasing, in small signal tubes like the one we are talking about. The frequency response is also a function of the tube resistors and caps. None of this will change if the circuit was properly designed. The idea in good design is to make the resistor bias and frequency performance dependent on the the local circuit itself and therefore be immune to variations in tube construction. The OPEN LOOP circuit which has none of these protections. Those will depend on the tube for the circuit's performance. (That is what a college education in electronic engineering will get you. I am an EE, Musician, Studio Owner, Equipment Designer.) So how swamped (technical term) the circuit is will determine the performance as outlined above. Changing a 12AX7 with another 12AX7 of another brand, in a properly designed circuit, will make no difference at all. The proper designed circuit depends very little on the actual tube other than for gain. You might be thinking of POWER output tubes with their ability to have a pot for the bias setting.
There are a family of 9 pin tubes in the 12 - - 7 tubes. These are optimized for either Voltage Grain or Power Drive capability. The 12AX7 is one of the worst in the family. These were made for cheap 5 tube AM radios. These can cut back on the number of tubes that are needed in the AM radio. This is called Economics. The 12AX7 driving a high Z load will still have a lot of distortion, but lots of gain. If you replace that 12AX7 with a lower gain tube with a lot of drive capability like the 12AU7 then since this tube can drive more power into it's load without distortion, but with less gain, this will make the quality will go up and the loudness go down. Loudness and Tone is all about the circuit around the tube. This can be tested with an Analog Signal Analyzer. So the range of tube designs were meant to address these different requirements.
You might want to examine the Decoupling circuits of each amp section. I updated mixing consoles by adding bigger Decoupling Caps. I checked the console with a Kick Drum Sample. This was causing the input of one channel to drive all the channels into saturation. These were cheap performance mixers.
It's nearly impossible to find a modern 12ax7 made in the last 5 years with a gain factor of 100. I think that's where a lot of people notice differences. The tubes aren't meeting spec and are very inconsistent.
I agree
How did you test that?
Thanks, Glenn. All these years I couldn’t hear what everyone was going on about. I thought it was me. Turns out I was right, nothing much was happening. Great content, as ever.
I was expecting these results but it still amazed me how there's basically NO FRIKING DIFFERENCE. At least not a very noticeable one, specially in a mix. If you want to be picky go ahead and use different tubes but in reality no one in a audience will notice.
No one in the audience will notice much of anything. They sure won’t be able to tell you’re running your NOS Mullards and just tweaked the bias hotter! 😜
I once stacked a wall of cabinets to block wind at a gig . Didn't hook them to anything and most people said the new speakers sounded great .
But...but...they feeeel different man. ;-)
when I ask for tubes, I ask for *quality* tubes rather than some other aspect from some manufacturer or tube sortin company because I want tubes that work to spec not fucking magic beans.
your #1 defense against bullshit is not just watching teardowns and tests but actually understanding a little of the thing being torn down and tested.
I mean, it's used as a justification because it's true. Apply it to tubes, gear, ability, etc. They just care about being entertained and we as musicians should concentrate on that. Entertain people, make the best music we can and stop caring about the things that will not accomplish those things.
Bottom line, Glenn might take heat for this test, but he is just trying to save us some money. Thumbs up.
I feel like you just made an unintentional pun
lol
Its funny because I changed my tubes because I suspected they were kinda weak. Sure enough a fresh set sounded great. More of everything. Tubes can get old and weak and still work and might drive you crazy while you're trying to figure out if something sounds different. Tube testers us what we should buy.
I think the only thing Glenn took for this test was a handful of Adderall before he started recording
Thank you for such a thorough and precise test, we need more of this in music. Especially loved the "warm doesn't mean anything" part.
The biggest shock to me was how close the el34s were to 6l6s. That's nuts. It's nice to know how little the power tubes actually matter in regards to tone. Thanks for the scientific approach.
The difference is mostly in the way they clip. The 6L6s clip harder at a higher threshold
I have a 3ch Recto, and there is definitely a difference in in the overall EQ. I find the lows with 6L6's almost overbearing and the EL34's just right (for a recto). Also find the lows are more focused with EL34's. All JJ for my tests... Either way still sounds like a recto...
I wonder if the el34s or 6L6s were actually being pushed hard enough to start clipping. I wouldn't expect much difference if they aren't being pushed hard. Also curious to know if biasing each set 'properly' would change their response. I doubt you're going to hear a different EQ response, but I would expect different output level and clipping point. MAYBE even hearing clipping at different frequencies first.
In the end, I'm not so surprised by the results but more by for how many years I heard that tube swap tone bullshit
EL34 grids are approximately twice as sensitive as a 6L6, and will put out a bit more power in an otherwise identical circuit. Most amps that run one type will run the other, so you can experiment with both to get the response that you want out of your volume knob. It’s a lot like adjusting the gain of the power amp itself
I think the JJ sounded special, kind of magical unicorn dust sound. Warmer yet blissful. Of course I have special Tube speakers.
Yesss. I've been waiting for this video since the Klark Technik Review. It amazes how people (even smart ones) want to validate their purchases without considerable evidance.
I hope you'll release the tracks to those so I can show this at school to all my classmates and teachers as well who might say something about TH-cam not being enough due to its compression algorithm.
Glenn's like Santa with this one, saving everyone money for Holiday's. Make sure to re-bias, double check that shiz.
Cathode bias for the win, just throw a new set in and check that is within proper range. No rebiasing necessary unless your amp or tubes are bad
I hate paying for the tech to do the bias, but it is crucial.
Especially if your amp is made on a different continent or country. The amp builder has no idea what the actual reading in the wall voltage is in your country versus what the official rating is. They just try to get close to the official rating and perhaps adjust a bit for the variance they've been reported with, and if an american builder sells an amp to europe, every country is different even if they're generally in the same range so you just get an average guess. By correctly biasing an amp you ensure that it sounds like the builder intended it to sound like. Funnily enough, a change of tubes might actually get the bias closer.
Guys, just turn the amp upside down and play riffs. Turn the bias knob until it sounds how you want. Then check the voltage and current and make sure it is within the acceptable range so you don't blow your tubes up.
I can already tell you there's gonna be more "wah wah wah!" about this video than a Metallica solo. 🤣 Great video Glenn.
An incredible eye-opener. As of now, on this day, i solemnly swear to never smell another cork again. Thanks for showing me the light. Furthermore, the mic placement example really deserved it's own mini video demonstration because it's a very valuable piece of recording knowledge that has a much more dramatic effect than id ever thought. This is a great video. Just Excellent. Loved the null comparisons as well. That told me everything.
Is the Sound Really in the Hands? We put the myth to the test: th-cam.com/video/sJKP_uq6His/w-d-xo.html
Good video, stop buying all the NOS tubes so us audiophiles can eat them all up. We hear a difference with our amps made to be analytical
@@gunsnwankers1 awesome! I’ve also got a very nice bridge for sale!
The only difference I've noticed playing is the initial attack of the note with different tubes. I'm pretty sure it has to do with the nature and science behind the tube itself. I could be wrong but maybe you could leave some insight? I think I heard it as well in your testing especially doing the null test.
I love Solid states, tubes, and plugins and use all the above so no biasness is included with this thought.
You should do the tonewood test in the same way. I don't know how to put the player out of the equation tho, we need a device of some sort or whatever
Yes, changing your amp's tubes changes the amp's sound. One more YT video against the dozens already demonstrating that isn't going to change the conclusion. Among tubes models, there are all manner of frequency emphasis and clarity that can be had. A JJ 6L6 will sound muddy compared to a Svetlana 6L6, for example - the difference is pretty night-and-day. And different tubes deliver different amounts of gain. Some will breakup earlier while others will give more headroom.
There are some select amp models which don't experience much change in sound when their tubes are changed. The Fender Super Reverb is one such amp. The Joyo Bantamp would be another. Other amps experience a huge change when swapping tube models. My Orange and Marshall amps, and my Mesa power amps experience significance change in tone and headroom based on which tubes are installed in them. Swapping the 2203 from EL34 to KT88 completely changed the shape of the tone and the lead channel.
There are tubes that I simply can't get the sound I love from.
This is THE most thorough application of the scientific method outside of a formal scientific or academic setting. I'm sending this to my brother who's an educator. This needs to be shown to kids in middle school!
I thought it was Fairy tears, Unicorn Farts, and Dragon's breath? Do you mean psychoacoustics and moods change the human's perception? Thanks for doing this, I've been looking forward to this video!
Finally, someone who actually did a proper scientific study on tubes; only variable was the tubes and everything remained constant. Bravo, sir.
Thank you Glenn! I can’t imagine how long this took! The funny thing is how much a slight mic placement can change tone yet people would rather go on and on about tubes.
I get a warm glow when Glenn does science. When a recording engineer can grasp the scientific method and get what the results mean, nobody has an excuse to ignore it.
This does indeed bust the whole tube myth.
Right up the arse.
With a dry cactus!
Nice one, Glenn!
@@michaelstevenfriedlander4583
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Yes, there is a myth. And it is still being maintained by willing believers.
Don't you hear the differences in the null clips? Surprisingly different results when he compared different tubes.
@@GCKelloch
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Not an objective measure.
What bit of scientific observation is to complex for you to understand?!
Everything else aside, that snare sound during the first power tube comparison is probably the best I've ever heard, nicely done sir ^_^
Exactly my thoughts
Not a fan with too much reverb on the snare...but it sounds gorgeous
Awesome snare!!!👍😂
reminded me the snare sound on Metallica "Black Album"
I was surprised by these results. I was expecting that changing the valves would make a very small difference but I wasn’t expecting how little difference it actually made. Great video Glenn!
So, I've mentioned it to you before: the differences I've noticed, doing the same tests as you, found no more than +/-2dB of difference. It's present, but it's not super game changing the way changing the speaker would be.
It was inevitable that the popularisation of recording through the great cheap gear that's available today would create the need for a Science Messiah™ to hunt down and destroy all the related snake oil that's been building up for the last 40 years. Good on ya for taking on the challenge Glenn.
I mean, the null tests didn't completely null out the sounds on some tests, there was still some noise there, that means it *is* objectively changing the tone, but I would agree that it's not very much at all.
Are the null sounds a result of volume difference? Because the actual tones sounded exactly the same.
@@ameer_saban necro response, but no, as Glenn said in the video the ONLY change was the tubes!
I could hear pretty big differences!
@@terminalvelocity4858 the tubes give different volume levels. If glenn evened out the Db levels we'd prolly here an even more nulled-out sound
I have a Joyo Zombie and been considering changing the valve in it to see how it would effect how it sounds. This video has been a help!
I too have been playing on a JOYO Zombie for a few months now. After about two months of taking the thing through its paces, it started to sound weak. I replaced the tube and that seemed to perk it right up. I dunno if my particular unit simply had a faulty tube or if I just overused the heck out of it. It's been good ever since though.
@@nOT_sURE08 its more so that the tubes they come with just... suck. Ive got a Joyo Firebrand (fireball?) and swapping out the no name tube for a basic Tung Sol made a huge difference in performance. Swapping between the tungsol and a JJ I had laying around, however, did not make a significant difference.
In before the "Glenn, you cheated by using a reamp box and an impulse response!" Those comments should be automatically nominated for "Butthurt of the Week".
NOS tubes, otherwise known as "New Old Stock," do in fact have a slight difference in the gain structure regarding one's EGO and upper harmonic content of their amp snobbery.
BUT BRO YOU NEED TO GET THE JAN PHILLIPS NOS 5751, THE JJ 5751 IS REALLY BRITTLE BY COMPARISON
I see what you did there, but one time I changed my tubes and it sounded like Jesus was whispering in my ears. That was back in nineteen ninety eight when the undertaker threw mankind off hеll in a cell, and plummeted sixteen feet through an announcer's table.
@@XlouietheflyX jj can't compare to any nos it's without treble
try to hear one
I think we can settle the debate. We recruit someone with synesthesia and ask them if the letters RCA sound better than the letters JJ.
Glenn you just pissed off every forum amp gurus. I love how honest you are! I’m starting to think my old tubes were shot.
Thank you very much. I have been one of those " The tube brand makes a huge difference" guys forever but i cant really dispute what you did just there so im not even going to try.
You're very welcome! I hope I saved you some money!
This was incredibly informative Glenn. I blindly believed the tube logic for years because that's what I was taught. But armed with this new information backed by reputable testing I see how wrong I was. If nothing else I now know if the tubes in my amp start to fail then the stock chinese ones I pulled out of it will make perfectly acceptable replacements. Thanks for saving me money that I can put towards something more beneficial!
Yeah, I’m glad I never went totally off the deep end chasing tone. Speakers and pedals were my main thing, but I’m set there now.
“I changed my tubes and I can hear a difference!” - Patrick Star
i DO play with feeling. "pissed off/angsty rage" is a feeling.
oh, also, changing your tubes will have about as much effect as changing which outlet your bass player is putting the butter knife in...again.
wanna change your tone? try the dials on the front of the amp.
buh-BLAM! Great comment. Especially the last line.
Wait- you mean I'm supposed to USE those???
Nah, man. You change your tone when you move the Metal Zone from the front of your amp to the Effects Loop!
bass player are dumb but Tone Expert are even more dumb
As a bass player I always thought it was a fork I was supposed to put in the outlet. Jeez, no wonder my tone has been terrible.
Wasn't expecting to hear much of a pronounced difference, but it's definitely there. The mullards and electro harmonix seemed to have less high end, and volume when compared to the JJ's and stock joyos. Eye's closed listening on neumann kh120's. I switched to my macbook pro speakers and still heard the difference. Interesting stuff Glen! Thanks!
Great Vid Glenn!..... love the scientific method! :)
The null tests sound like a lot of the difference is in the highs, which is admittedly what I'm usually trying to change.
I bet you tubes made 1 week apart at the same factory will have such small variances.
It’s right in the crunch.
The point is that it's not worth the investment and you're better off investing in other parts of your signal chain to get the result you want.
- Get different strings for your guitar.
- Get different pick-ups for your guitar.
- Use a different pick.
- Buy or upgrade a cab with speakers aimed at the kinda sound you want.
- Invest time into practice instead of playing the lottery.
@@nikumeru, most certainly from the Shuguang factory. I generally like their tubes but I have a bunch of them that do sound different.
@@SpectreSoundStudios, yeah, I mostly play dirty and sometimes the difference I'm looking for is sparkle vs no sparkle. In an amp that doesn't have a presence control that difference can be nice.
I tend to find that the New Sensor EHX-branded tubes tend to lack any sparkle at all while the other New Sensor tubes (Sovtek, Mullard, Tung-Sol, Svetlana) tend to be better with that.
But, basically, your null tests pretty much confirmed what I thought about the differences being small but still there and that the JJ tubes are simply louder (since they're the closest to the actual published 12AX7 spec).
The big difference is that some companies throw a bunch of components inside a glass tube and slap a label on it while that label may not mean what they think it means.
Excellent work Glenn, thanks for the work you put into this. I'd like to see you have your own Mythbusters for musicians series. Love your channel
That's a great idea!
Biggest myth of all "Don't worry guys - we can fix it in the mix!!"
BULLSHIT!!!!
I’ve been waiting for this!
Snap!
Coming from the speaker and headphone world I can tell you There is a change, there are tubes that sound warmer, others sound brighter, others are bassier, others are more mid forward, others can change the stereo soundstage a bit…
You can tell me, sure. But can you back up your claims with evidence? Let’s see/hear your test!
@@SpectreSoundStudios of course I can tell you anything but you can test yourself tbh if you're willing to buy a speaker/headphone tube amp and ''tube roll.'' Just from my experience owning tube amps a quick example, Electro Harmonix 6H30pi tubes sound completely different from RCA 1626 tubes.
Nice test. Good to see someone actually use the scientific method. The responsiveness where a tube starts to move from clean to distorted is what many players mean by feel. Your test seems in line with this. It's certainly what I'm looking for when I'm dealing in an amp.
"Feel" also gets used to refer to "time feel" as in how a player moves around their timing expressively. This seems to be more pronounced in certain genres.
In before the lynching
One guy in the back of the room is standing with his arms crossed saying, "Yeah, I hear the difference."
Next step in this "Does it make a difference" guitarist myth journey: Cab speaker break-in.
Null test that stuff!
Yes!!! Definitely doing that!!
@@SpectreSoundStudios please do that glenn :D that would be a very interesting video and information.
Add studio monitor breakin test to that...my feeling is that all you are breaking in is your ears.
I would agree with the stories about a difference, but only with V30s. I didn't notice a difference at all really with H75 Creambacks. I suspect it is due to the way that the frequency profile of the V30 is impacted by the stiffness of the cone due to the stiff doping used on the speaker, and when it breaks down a bit that changes. I didn't notice a change with the H75s but their frequency response is different. I hated the V30s until I broke them in
That'd be really cool to null test. But I'm pretty damned sure my V30's sound better after breaking in, don't know about other speaker types though.
IDK- I love the scientific nature of this test, but in the end he actually seems to demonstrate that there in fact is a difference between tubes- especially mullards and jjs. I mean, no sensible person expects a HUGE difference. It's not like you swap tubes and your fender becomes a marshal- it's just subtle but noticeable differences in volume, compression levels, and resulting slight frequency differences. It makes sense that tube differences are less about tone, and more about how the power handling- volume- of the tube changes the way your amp works. When you listen to this test, it's clear that the mullards are quieter, and that they push the amp less, so sound smoother, while the JJs are loud and brighter- perhaps because they push the amp more. Overtime I've learned that I prefer JJS- they just make my amp sound right to me- and this test basically confirmed that. There's only a subtle difference- but what else would anyone really expect? I know people online tend to hyperbolize, but that doesn't mean that there's no difference- it's just a very subtle difference.
I had mullards on this test?
@@SpectreSoundStudios Ah yeah- I assume you are joking. 8:41. On the Joyo it was more obvious- maybe because fewer components means that each component will have more of an impact? But wow- you actually responded to my comment! Thanks! Love your videos- keep em coming!!!! and have a great holiday!
Thanks for making this! I'm super glad I found this before going down the rabbit hole! You saved me much time and money!
Can we just all agree that the snare sound in these clips was the real hero. It's so good
That was a pretty Kraken snare thought hey....
Listening through headphones, pretty noticeable difference in EQ between the tubes on the Joyo Zombie. The JJ is bright. The others sound a little scooped. Thought the 12AU7 would have sounded different, it didn't even sound quieter.
Thanks for the effort that went into this.
I agree the jj was noticeably brighter. Ehx also had some tone shift in there. (on the joyo demo). I'm not a huge tube guy and definitely not gonna swap anything out over that subtle difference, but it was there.
Yeah, there is a huge difference between EL34 and 6L6. 6550 are similar to 6L6 also. I've used all of these back to back in an Orange Rockerverb. Additionally, I can set the bias, so I'm aware that the hotter bias sounds better for cleans and the colder bias sounds better for high-gain. I already ran this experiment in my basement 10 years ago.
love how easy it is too tell apart the people who wasted money & the people you saved money from this test 😂 😂
Exactly! I learned this when I realized my blackstar had el34
Vs 6l6. I've had alot of different amps over the last 20 years. I think it's the circuit,pickups and speaker personally
Brilliant! Well done. For what its worth, it makes a huge difference to sound stage and 'relative' tonal balance across a very wide frequency range in my various high-end tube audio components (phono sections, pre-amps, and amps) but they are are called upon to produce the full gamut of the frequency spectrum, from 35hz to 20,000hz, which is to say it is changing everything it has authority over. In this test the contribution of the drums and bass is independent of the tube change and effectively masking rather than revealing whatever effect it might have caused to psychoacoustical conditions beyond a guitars reach. In high end audio application it works to variably conjure sound-stage, left to right, and front to back and air and space into the soundstage in terms of the separation of performers, and their image solidity within the soundstage. Each presentation is different but not tonally so.
Additionally, the frequency range of an electric guitar 'by itself' is not wide enough nor set against a backdrop of other frequencies sufficiently well to provide context for whatever slight tonal impingements it 'may' have wrought. I hear no significant difference when I swap preamp tubes in 'most' guitar amp circuits. Power tubes are a different matter, but mostly in terms of volume and balance of the entire frequency range. The guitar sits basically in the same range as the voice, which is no test for a capable audio system, except that its honest representation of it and makes your voice (guitar) sound just as bad as you suspect you do. LOL! I've played my guitar through more than $65K worth of audio electronics, and its not pretty. Most of us prefer a flattering fiction to a less flattering truth, and that includes guitar tone.
you sir do all of us a great service. salute.
I'm so glad to see null testing finally making it into Glenn's arsenal. Level matching of course will affect the whole thing.. The proper way to do it is to adjust the levels in post to produce as small residual as possible. That is the actual change in tone.
edit: overall, i found more changes than i expected, of course, they were roughly in the magnitudes i expected. My background is in EE and i should be able to design a 5150 from the scratch (should be in theory.. practice might be different... ) and the difference really is in the circuit design, its topology, where it has filters (accidental or deliberate), what compromises had to be made and so on.
Transducers are still the biggest variable and the worst piece of kit in the chain. Mics and speakers are.. lightyears behind electronics, specially solid state electronics. If you can get the sound from a solid state, even if it is minutely off, you will have that sound forever and can reproduce it much easier. Tubes are great but they are not the only way to get that sound.. Blind testing, null testing etc are very good tools to remove our own pre-dispositions from the equation. You might be really surprised for the results.. and may be able to do it in the future with minimal investing and without any equipment lottery where you buy new things trying to find something you don't know what it is yet. It is like playing darts in the dark.
Other things that don't matter: tonewood, power conditioners (unless you actually have actual issues), cables, converter preamps, samplerate above 44.1k, dynamic range above 16bit in playback, above 20bits in capture, noise floor below 80dB in most cases, THD below 0.5% (human perception is around 3-5%), component burn-in time, system synergy where everything affects everything else etc etc etc.
I mean cheap guitar cables 100% make a sonic difference compared to higher end ones. Easy and obvious to test (they even have directionality). For like balanced cables they do not make a difference at all though as long as put together correctly.
@@Aaezil I disagree about the cables - yeah, the signal can be weakened by the resistance of the cable if it's really long and thin (and I don't even know what the ratio is where you'd start to notice it), but otherwise I'd say any difference will be caused by external interference or placebo.
This is quite a brilliant test. I would love to see more of these. On topic, imagine if musicians focused more time and money on Songcraft and skill development instead of a small adjustable in their gear. Just imagine the records that could be made.
One can dream.
Haha so true, Yet I’m still here
Finally someone did this test the way I've always wanted to. Glenn has been rather unscientific in some of his previous "scientific method" videos but this one did everything I can think of right. Good show.
Conclusion: There IS a difference, but it's mostly level, not tone. Nowhere near the world-changing difference forums make it out to be, but it's not TOTALLY untrue- it's just not what these cork sniffers say it is.
@@lurch789 So in reality, tubes don't make a difference. Gotcha.
Thanks bud !! I've been investigating a lower gain tube for my marshall but I saw your vid pop up !!!!!!!!
The gain factor of a 12ax7 should be 100 - but in reality, that's rarely the case with modern tubes. When the gain factor changes so does the sound. Especially so in a close to source situation like a preamp / input.
In a phase inverter role, it's really difficult to hear any difference - it's more about reliability - but sure enough a NOS 12au7 will not measure or work the same as a modern production version - because the spec is different.
With Pentodes and beam tetrodes, and kinked tetrodes they each run at different plate voltages and require different biasing - depending on the circuit - so yes, they do sound different and yes, they do measure differently. How much that changes the output depends on a lot of factors. But generally, the more negative feedback in the circuit the less detectable the changes.such as in most Class AB amps.
When we get into Class A or single ended triode type arrangements tube changes make a massive difference - especially when closest to the source like a v1 change in most guitar amps. But by the time we get to the power tubes so much has already happened in most guitar amps that differences are going to very minor.
The title had me like “Nooo, he’s about to unravel my whole reasoning behind Blackstar’s ‘TrueValvePower’ feature set”.. but as a AES Audio Specialist, I have both doubts & suspicions about voltage sag and SolidState\Tube hybrid tech
WTF is even ‘TrueValvePower’ ? :P
@@CyberChrist Its a patented technology which helps emulate tubes within the solid state domain. It does this by altering the frequency response depending onthe dynamic range not just altering the frequency and dynamic response separately.
@@zaldinor9 I have a id30tvp, that knob is pretty effective in changing the tone for sure. the boss nextone does something similar. the blackstar is a great little amp for the money.
@@zaldinor9 Thx. Peavey's TransTube did emulate tubes quite well aeons ago ^^
@@zaldinor9 I've read an article on perfect emulation of tube overdrive using a concept of "virtual scalable diode", but with any opamps and no tuning required whatsoever (unlike with plain JFETs). Difference from original was the same as in any two units, due to 5% component tolerances
Thanks for doing a fairly scientific comparison like this. I've been playing guitar for about 40 years. I've also been a scientist and electrical engineer for a bit over 25 years. For every proper test like this, there are 10,000 internet posts reinforcing all the guitar amp myths that have evolved, and it's hard to not be influenced by them. The comparison between EL34 and 6L6 once again reminded me that it's amp design, not tube choice that really dictates how an amp sounds. I have however noted a change in a particular amp of mine when I went from EL34 to KT88. But that's a rather significant change. I found I had trouble with the amp reproducing too much low-end with the KT88s.
I experienced this in a JCM800.
Same here with KT88s and a JCM800.
Thanks Glenn, professional as usual, the Synergy example explains everything. I could hear some small changes but honestly, moving an EQ or mic will do much more difference than swapping tubes, but of course "Tubes fanatic" will always have something to say!!!
Glad you made it to the synergy part. Most didn’t before freaking out.
The null test was such an excellent idea. This should be applied FAR more often in other comparison videos for gear.
@@lurch789 Either that, or it's bullshit.
This is brilliant - wish TH-cam had recommended this video before I just ordered a premium set of tubes for my amp... Did a swap yesterday and the only difference I can perceive from the stock ruby tubes is volume.
Glenn, you are a legend man!!! We guitarists should start comparing things by just saying "it's slightly different!" instead of acting like we have found the secret component to our guitar tones! From my experience, guitarists are the number 1 myth creators in the universe. You have responded to them in the best possible way :) Excellent stuff!!! PS: If I had to go for a myth creation session, I would preach SHUGUANG! Because it's difficult to pronounce :)
Cheers
Osman
It's simply pronounced "shoe hwung" two words not one.
@@matttaylor1449 You messed up my mojo myth
Next step: collab with CSGuitars. He can talk about what the actual differences between different tubes and why it doesn't matter 😂
I have to say that I'm not that impressed by CSG's technical expertise.
better collab with brad the guitologist , he can REALLY tell you how and why it doesnt matter
@@mikestckl6939 you mean before it after he subjects you to ramblings about how he thinks climate change is real
This is exactly my experience with tube swapping. I swapped out a Shuguang 12AX7 for several variants of 12AX7 and heard nothing, but percieved a gain/breakup difference when I substituted a lower-gain Sovtek 5751. Still sounds like the same amp.
Hey I did the exact same test myself with an Orange Micro Terror. I swapped the stock 12ax7 for a JJ 5751 and there was a drop in raw gain, but probably within the range of what the gain knob could produce anyway. Then I swapped in a Tung Sol 12ax7 and it was a bit louder than the stock at the same volume knob setting, but tone was basically identical. Certainly no huge change in sound like a lot of 'experts' would have you believe. Cheers!
Same. I went from a Tung Sol 12AX7 to a JJ 5751 in the PI and it dipped the gain just enough so that I could push the whole pre a bit harder for the same output, resulting in a more pleasing sound.
You can't just dismiss level changes as irrelevant to tone. The whole point of some of these options is how they function in the gain staging of the preamp and headroom and output factor are fundamental elements in that.
So here is this... I just swapped my preamp tubes in my amp after 3 years, the amp is a Laboga The Beast Plus 30w, with 2 x 12ax7 and 4 x EL84. I only swapped the two preamp tubes to the very same JJ ECC83S tubes that the amp came with and instantly I could notice the change, so I swapped back and forth between old and new ones and as per my ears I could notice the following with the newer ones:
1. More compression
2. Slightly less gain, gain level pot needs to be higher to compensate.
3. Slightly less bass overall (bass level pot needs to be pushed higher to compensate the lack of bass).
4. More highs (more piercing sound), old tubes sounds "warmer" meaning highs weren't so piercing. Decreasing high level pot makes eases the piercing high... at the cost of the "good" high.
Why did I change? I could notice that on heavy chugging with open chords with low tuning (Drop B) the guitar sound started to sound more and more like a fuzz pedal instead of the distorted sound the amp gives when not playing that hard - the moment you soften up a little bit your play, sound comes back to normal. This is not happening on the newer preamp tubes.
So there's my two cents on it...
Evidence please! And use a Reamp
Absolute great to do the null tests! It makes the statement very clear. Just great
We need a cork sniffers shirt Glenn. "Beware of the cork sniffers" or something along those lines.
So you got the same result as I did. A bit of a difference in gain. Cool.
Oh, the viewer's comments videos in the coming weeks should be golden!
The winner of TBHW has to be the comment below yours... lol...
Edit. his rant of ultimate "nothing you say can destroy my bias'" has gone somewhere. I hope it makes it, all 3 paragraphs... .hahaha
First video I've seen of you in a while, I'm blown away by your shape man, nice work!
So so much talk about vacuum tubes but I have not seen anyone explain what speakers are needed for them. Speakers also play an important role, but we are not talking about specific models for this. Thanks for the invested and beautiful video.
Amp designer: we'll just design an amp to sound different by changing the layout and circuit...
Guitarist: IT'S THE TUBES, THEY HAVE THE TONE!!!
The amp circuit is the most crucial part. But, the tubes are more important than Glenn suggests. Try an Orange Rockerverb loaded with EL34s and then loaded with 6550s. You'll then realize Glenn is an idiot. Sorry Glenn..
@@123lowp the only difference could be the bias to the specific internal capacitance of a particular tube. Sorry guitar doood, I'll take my ee degree & years of professional experience with scientific instrumentation over your deluded pothead bullshit.
I was shocked how different the different tubes sounded in the Joyo. Then Glenn mentioned it was a level difference and my mind was blown. I listened to it again and it seems when the volume dropped down I associated more of the bass tone with the guitars. Kind of blended them together. Wild
If it was only output, the null clips could be adjusted so there would be absolute silence.
I was expecting almost no change (as an engineer for over two decades), but there was a little more tone change than I expected. That all said, we're talking really minor changes throughout. In my opinion, go EHX tubes and stop worrying. There's little appreciable difference and the EHX tubes seemed to be right in the middle each time. Thanks for doing the 6L6 vs EL34 test, by the way!
I've tried EL34s, KT88s, 6550s, and 6L6s in a Diezel Herbert, VH4, and Orange Rockerverb. There is a difference between all of them. Glen is misguided. My friend is an amp tech and he taught me how replace tubes and bias them, so I tried all this stuff 10 years ago.
Yes, tube choice will not matter while playing chunky metal. Tubes are just one small aspect in a chain of things that can effect tone.
I've heard players say they can feel a difference with power tube changes and it's subtle. I haven't experimented that much but I think the tonal differences are more dramatic with preamp tubes and it's more about headroom.
I can't tell the difference in power or preamp tubes with clean guitars or heavy saturation. It's at that slight breakup where I think they shine but it's still subtle. There's a reason that SRV changed out preamp tubes on his amps for more headroom and Ed wanted 6ca7's instead of el34's in the power section of the one Marshall he recorded the first 6 with.
He later went with 6L6's and I think that may have been a headroom thing as well, in that the el's breakup sooner than the 6L's. My amp tech actually told me that.
Ultimately, I don't think tubes are as much about dramatic tone shift as much as feel when playing and headroom.
Thank you for this vid! The null tests were convincing. You saved me some $$$. Appreciate it!
Dude, that's not what a "fixed bias amp" means. It still needs to be biased correctly for the tubes you use.
Although it is not going to be as big of a deal as people claim, or put differently: power tubes usually aren't biased properly by the amp manifacturer anyway.
@@driesvanoosten4417 if you've ever had a power tube over heat I'm sure you know it sort of does matter?
It does make a difference. I have a mesa .50 cal+ that i have had since the early 90's and I recently had it recapped/tubed and the power tubes were swapped to sovteks. I could barely bring myself to play the amp afterwards! After nearly a year of screwing around, playing my other gear I went and changed the 6L6s back to mesas and I am extremely happy to say I have my amp back now. It may not always be a super noticeable change but in this case it was very noticeable. Maybe it was a biasing problem, maybe a bad tube, but it definitely validated the importance of tubes to me.
I like the null test results, I have tube swapped to modify the tone of my amp admittedly a Mesa dual rec sounds and reacts much the same, biggest difference was the poweramp threshold between el34s vs 6l6s I preferred the bass response on the 6l6 in that amp. Interesting video though 👍🏻
For the sake of rigor: Most of the tests failed the null test as the result was not pure silence or something with a flat frequency distribution. BUT, the difference is so small it doesn't really matter, especially when you can EQ that difference away by accidentally touching the treble knob or having a butterfly fly past your microphone.
The differences were not in tone. Tubes are not eq devices, but changing the circuitry for each tube could make the relative response between them closer.
simply, an excellent video - subscribed ! thank you
Glad you enjoyed it!
Very informative, thanks for doing this. I was expecting to hear a difference between 6L6 vs EL34 with 6L6 having a bit more headroom. Looks like the "American" vs "British" sound has little to do with the tubes and can be fully attributed to the amp design.
Watch some other videos that compare 6L6 vs. EL34 vs. KT88 in the same amp. No idea why they sound so similar here (I suspect the Two Notes is adding some coloring to try to make them sound the same), but in reality, they don't.
I could have told you that already. The whole american vs british sound is a superstrange distinction anyway. Do Vox, Orange and Marshall sound more alike than Fender? I would say Vox sound as different from Marshall as Fender does. But even if we're just talking about Marshall and Fender, are the tubes really the difference? Fender is most famous for combos, Marshall for stacks. Fender used Jensen speakers, Marshall used Celestion. Marshall used difference resistor and capacitor values in the tone stack. Different values for the cathode bias resistor bypass capacitor, etc. Why would anyone believe that the tubes are what make the difference?
@@cynicanal111 perhaps the other videos show a larger difference because they were less carefull. I have seen plenty of such videos and none of them take what I would call a scientific approach. Not saying that Glenns approach is, there is certainly room for improvement in his methodology.
I'm actually shocked that there was ANY difference at all between the "no label" and Shuguang tubes in the 5150 since the "no label" tubes are Shuguangs these days.
This is just like the tonewood debate:
Is there a difference? Yes but subtle.
It is worth the money to change? You probably get a bigger difference just working on your technique or even getting some new strings.
tonewood bs has been debunked sooooo many times, decent hardware and electronics will have much more impact on your tone than what kind of wood it's made of.
I used to be a touring musician for 5 years. I played a tube amp for 4 of those years. I always thought tube was the way to go.
The last year of touring, I played a Boss Katana. I was tired of lugging a heavy amp around. The Katana is lighter, no maintnance.
Now, every time I play a tube amp, I cant get the same warmth and feel that I get with my Katana. Guitarists would even come up to me and ask about my rig and tone... they couldn't believe it was a solid state Katana. I even fooled my sound guy who has been playing tube amps since the 70s. I never thought this would be the case...
Now with the Katana Gen 3 my tone much warmer. Plus, my tone is the same at every gig and no tubes means no maintenance required.
The guitar world will continue to believe tubes are superior, but it seems like "cork sniffing" to some degree.
I'll be making a test video on this subject in my channel soon.
This is reassuring, when the Mullards in my little vintage amps go I wont bother hunting for more. Thanks for putting the work in. Great video.
D-did Glenn actually have to look up furry art?
Nah, he's got plenty of furry photos in his spank bank.
Glenn, You are a legend. Thank you.
If tubes had a sound, manufacturers would publish frequency response curves, just like they do for speakers and microphones. But they don't. Because tubes DO NOT have a sound. Never did. And the industry always knew it too.
No, but they do have unavoidable transfer characteristics derived from material properties. Some of which are published I the documentation.
Gearslutz has ads on TH-cam now...
Let them all catch HIV and die of their own arrogance. I couldn’t care less.
@@montychristo86 indeed
My dad was a radio and tv engineer in the 60's and 70's. I grew up around valve (tube) equipment. I don't have half the knowledge he had, but there are many factors to consider in valves and their circuits. Also, as valves are harder to come by these days, and their manufacture is less widespread, this also adds a "dynamic" if we can call it that.
The reason I'm commenting though, is that during the 90's there was a bit of a valve drought here in the UK so we were looking into different sources to obtain them and one way we started to get them was finding ex Soviet Military Surplus valves.
You needed to work out which ones were equivalent (or at least nearby) the valves you required, and then, because these valves were built like a T-72, mount a converter to locate the valves.
The amp guy in the guitar shop I used to work in did quite a few amps with these valves, and I remember there were 2 that stood out. There was something about those Soviet valves that were entirely different (they weren't broken, for starters) to the ordinary valves we were using here.
The clean sounds were almost "piano-like." Very forward, very middy and warm. We repaired an old 70's home-brew bass amp using them too, this thing looked like it could jump-start Frankenstein, but the sound 🫨
Don't get me wrong, I'm not preaching the whole "valves make *all* the difference" thing, but we certainly did find some differences albeit through the necessity of the great valve drought of 1993/4
Thanks so providing true tests and information. I ,more than likely, need to change the tubes in my amp because I forgot to turn it off for a few days a couple times. It definitely doesn't sound like UT used to after that
So I just made dirt cheap tube distortion, based on a schematic from LOOKMUMNOCOMPUTER... i am a pretty noob with electronics, but know my way with audio... so with this circuit and diffrent tubes there is a really big diffrence in distortion. Where a China 12at7b sounds fucking amazing in this, a fcking china tube! I also scavanged a telefunken tube, and this boosted the volume quite a bit, with some clean distortion. The other china 12ax7 and Electro harmonix sounded like crap. But there are some pretty significant diffrences in the sounds that come out.... maby it’s just the stage where the tube is being used, and how it’s being used. But the finding is pretty satisfying, as I am planning to make a synthesizer with a lot of tube saturators in them. If you really want, shoot me a message, and I will be happy to make a video demonstrating the diffrent sounds of these tubes!
Still love ur videos, and honest gear reviews!
Stay safe!
Alain
From Holland :D
Would love to hear these diffrences!!!
I'm sad that many good tubes have been discarded because of this myth.
I save all my tubes until they start making some weird noise. I stopped buying preamp tubes a few years ago.
Why would he discard them?
@@Smung What do you do with the old tubes after you have replaced them?
@@johnwright8814 oh wait you weren't talking about glenns test but just in general lol
@@johnwright8814 all modern tubes belongs in the garbage bin
I tried different pre amp tubes on my 20 watt amp and I noticed that the headroom I got changed a bit, maybe. Power tubes, they’re all the same.
exactly
Swapping preamp tubes in my micro dark did absolutely nothing to the tone but it did change the overall volume of the amp which I wasn't expecting at all.
@@countzero5150 I had one of those last year and i did the same thing. fun little thing, loud as fuck tho.
@@TargetHHH101 I am nothing short of impressed with how it sounds and acts. Through the little 1x8 it's a train wreck, but plug it into a 1x12 or a 2x12 and it comes alive.
@@countzero5150 I agree my 2x12 is a rectocab with v30s and i sold the amp earlier in the year, but you can gig with it if you had to.
I had a good friend, who sadly passed away a few years ago, but he was an amp builder, as well as he was in with all the bigger "boutique" guys. He always said to me the circuit determines the over all tone. I always took the preamp tubes as is how the amp will break up. Some tubes I feel like have more gain on hand than others but not a tonal shift. 99% of the time you will never notice a power tube swamp without actually cranking the amp to even get the power tubes to break up and distort. But for me the only difference I ever heard was some tubes let more through than others. Example, the jj 6l6 vs the tungsol 6l6 only difference I heard is the jjs seem to let more low end through. But it wasn't that the tungsol sounded different just changed how the amp was responding. This also proves that the block letter 5150 wasn't any different than the script versions. Anyways great video!!! I love the science test!! Just like what Kristian kole does!! Keep it up man!!! I would love to talk gear and pick your brain with you!! Have a great day glen!!
That is very cool and the null method is excellent! The volume variation makes perfect sense given these are mechanically complex devices (lots of bent wire & stuff) that would be very difficult to make with microscopic tolerances. And even a small difference in the distance between the anode and cathode must cause a measurable difference between the amount of electrons crossing (ie the output voltage). I was actually expecting that this effect would be frequency-dependent as well but this video proves that this isn't the case.
All electronic components would have some tolerance in their spec (even simple resistors resistors may have as much as 10% in the resistance value, a 2kOhm resistor may turn out to be anywhere between 1.8 or 2.2kOhm). Historically the way to deal with this was to get a few more and measure them. With tubes / valves you can just listen to the (really) subtle differences if you have a couple spare ones. They don't have to be expensive vintage ones. Is one of them giving you a little more drive? Is another one giving you less drive but more headroom before breaking up?
I had two instances when swapping the single 12AX7 in the preamp made a difference for me. I've got some 90s/early 2000s gear with the original tubes. Two of these are nearly identical Hartke bass amp heads I bought a couple of years ago (a HA2000 and HA3500, both with a single preamp tube, different wattage solid state power stage). I used to play these without any effects (other than maxing the gain on the tube pre and using the built-in compressor). When I dug hard into the strings on my Warwick bass, the HA2000 had some nice edge of break-up sound. When I did that to the HA3500 that just somehow lacked balls. I was initially stumped by this until eventually I decided to swap the tubes between the two preamps and this moved the ballsy driven tube sound to the HA3500. Encouraged I bought a new Sovtek tube to replace the meh sounding 20 years old one and the new one sounded even better, with just a tad more drive (I did swap it back a couple of times to be sure I wasn't imagining it). Later I discovered that slapping a bog-standard guitar tube screamer pedal in front as a boost makes far far more difference than swapping the tube for a very slightly hotter one but the £25 was still worth it IMO.
Another case was with my old ART SGX2000 - a 90s digital multi effect unit with a tube preamp I've owned for a while and always hated the tube sound of. I've swapped that with a JJ and liked it better immediately. It was just "smoother" without noticeably less drive. But why is that? Is it because the old unbranded tube, although appeared to work fine, was 30 years old? Or because in the 90s the main manufacturers of 12AX7 were post-soviet Russia and China and neither were exactly renown for their quality control at the time? Or was I just unlucky with normal tolerances? I don't know but at least after watching this I have a better idea why the difference occurs. So thanks for doing this test :)