Ryron Gracie survived in his match against Andre Galvao who was a former adcc champ, so although they don't focus on sport fighting, I don't think it's fair to say they can't compete in sport matches
You actually don't get a blue belt after the test, you get a combatives belt. Then, another 100 classes with real rolling before you can get the blue belt. I can tell you that all the training before rolling makes it so much safer for everyone. Nothing more dangerous than a beginner after watching UFC and wanting to join a BJJ gym.
Rolling on day 1 leads to a lot of attrition. It’s like taking somebody from an Amazonian tribe, putting them behind the wheel of a car and asking them to drive in New York City.
Michael Bishop said it best "it's hard to do jiu-jitsu when you are getting punched in the face." I infer that he was referring to sport jiu jitsu and not the kind of self-defense jiu-jitsu that Rickson and Royce practiced.
The reality is its hard to do Self Defence Gracie JiuJitsu vs. anyone except for people who cant fight. Thats the only scenario where this Gracie Jiu Jitsu actually works for most people... bigger opponent who has 0 clue about fighting. I come from an MMA Background and had 6 MMA fights 2008-2012 i recently restarted BJJ 3 months ago after 12 years break. And while its true that when rolling vs sports BJJ guys i see many opportunities for punching them in the face.. its also true that i get submitted a lot. Id say in a fight vs a Sports BJJ guy there is almost a 50% chance that i either knock him out or he submitts me and chokes me out. Now there are also some GJJ Students visiting our schook from time to time and i rolled with some of them and i was schocked....they were like completely helpless... Now Rickson and Royce ofc were different ... but the average GJJ practicioner is not Rickson or Royce... They are people who train striking but are incredible bad at it... they are people who train takedowns and takedown defence but are incredible bad at it and they are people who train BJJ techniques but are bad at it... The Sports guys are pure ground fighting but at least they are good at it ! As someone from MMA i d say the GJJ guys i rolled with were a joke... the sport BJJ guys however while exposing their face to punches a good amount also were hell to deal with from a balancing point of view because they really know how to manipulate posture and balance of someone who actually can fight
@@lordadin from Gracie ctc and I have smashed sport guys depends on the person but to be fair I have done sport stuff as well jiu jitsu is so much more then just ground fighting starting from the knees which most American schools do sport should be second and deff done I love it but self defense should be the pillar
Sparring with brown and black belts on my first day led to me training 17 years. Everyone is different and knowing whether to make someone skip rolling in the beginning or kicking their ass on the first day is all part of being a great instructor!
Rolling with brown and black belts is probably the safest, most gentle roll a beginner could have (if the brown- and black belts aren't jerks). The risk of injuries and overall craziness is more likely with white belts sparring with each other I think.
Its like taking a ramp vs taking the stairs. A 20 year old, single, aggressive, motivated dude will be better in the regular Jiu Jitsu, roll the first day. Its okay, your body can heal faster, you have energy, and likely not much responsibilities other than taking care of yourself. A 35 year old with a wife and 2 kids, needs to ease into it more. Can't afford to get injured and miss work. Body is not what it used to. Acquiring the skill efficiently is of higher priority, less reliance on energy and aggression.
The original blue Belt (when the belt system was introduced in the 1940's), a blue belt had to be able to defend themselves against a non bjj opponent. At Gracie University, you earn your Combatives belt for this achievement. You then spend an additional 6 months learning BJJ vs BJJ to obtain your blue belt and the other belts. The purpose is to keep the original goal of self-defense and to keep that street switch active regardless of the skill level of your opponent. You don't roll until you are a Combatives belt, because they want you to build proper reflexes upfront without developing bad habits that you will struggle to eliminate later. 80 classes for Combatives Belt (108-216 recommended practice sessions at home [online]) 6 month wait time for Blue (regardless of home or Academy) 8 months for each additional stripe (at the Academy) without stringent testing. (No wait for Blue Belt Stripes [online method], but stringent testing for each stripe. 6 months for Purple Belt Stripes [also online method] with stringent testing.
Sport jiu jitsu also carries way higher risk of injury and turns ppl away since most have no solid tech in the beginning I'm 35 coming to end of my prime eventually I don't need 22 year old wrestler who only cares about competition and I like wrestling but unless u do mma the average person ain't wrestling and after college not worth the high risk of injury
As a college level wrestler I tried GC for the free week. when I found out there was no real rolling done at that location supposedly even at master level. I found a MMA gym that gave me the experience and intensity I wanted. For a true beginner or someone that wants a clear path forward for belt progression GC is definitely the way to go!
The problem with the old system where you roll the first day is that its very random what lessons you'll learn that day. Its also very instructor dependent. The instructor will cater to the average level of the class. That means that it will take 6 months before you learn a real move that you can actually execute in rolling. In that time, you'll mostly be flailing around. Around 50 classes (having taken each class at least twice) I started rolling at other places. What I discovered is that my technique in 6 months was ahead of many people who have been doing it even 2 years. I smashed (gently) everyone within my experience up to a year. I could hang with the blue belts, rarely would they submit me as a 3 stripe. The systematic approach to learning the techniques means that I could really study the details of a particular technique. Small details can produce large differences in the effectiveness of a particular technique. I studied the techniques meticulously. The one disadvantage is the intensity and cardio. Rolling from the first day selects for guys who have the endurance to last, what saved me was the escapes.
I can’t believe people tolerate being treated like this, it’s so degrading. We as martial artist basically fought a 20 year war to make aliveness and immediate sparring standard practice, thus sending cooperative, dead-pattern arts to the dustbin of history. Now you want me to turn Gracie BJJ into strip mall karate? No thanks, we’ll just do actual Brazilian jiujitsu instead. At my 90 day mark back in 2009 I would have destroyed these combatives students who don’t spar. They would have zero chance.
@@haircutdeluxewhile this might be true at the 90 day mark. At blue belt level, you won’t be destroying anybody from Gracie. Their techniques will be much better, more comprehensive, higher level. The sweeps and escapes are taught with such great detail that me as a 3 stripe (6 mo) couldn’t be pinned down by 2-3 year blue belts from other schools. Their control techniques were sloppy. I’m talking side control, mount, taking the back, guard, since they never do a deep dive into them. It was easy to get out. They couldn’t submit me either since their technique was sloppy and with easy exploits. Like their armbar were just not tight, large gaps, it was too easy to pull my arm out. Their chokes were never properly aligned, it’s so easy to slip a hand in pry them open. I don’t necessarily agree with the no rolling until after combatives, that’s too long. However, there is a value to a systematic approach to learning especially in the very early stages. It makes no sense to teach advance level counters to beginners who can’t even execute the move they are supposedly countering. I’ve seen this at other schools.
@@Basta11 There are no advanced techniques, there are only fundamentals. The language and training concepts you’re using are from the antiquated martial arts that were exposed as non functional back at the first UFC in 1993. Grappling is about proficiency. This is why sometimes a judoka, wrestler, or MMA fighter will be awarded blue belt very quickly, because it represents their level of proficiency. GC students who have not sparred do not have any proficiency. They can not wrestle, they have no base, bo timing, no balance, no conditioning, it’s all academic and not physical. In other words, their proficiency is fake because they can’t actually do it in real life. Why would anyone choose to do that instead of just training BJJ normally and learning how to do BJJ normally? And why do you GC people keep writing like you’re pretending to be a wise and experienced instructor when you can’t grapple?
I'm helio and Gracie university side and I come from Carlson Gracie first they did self defense to but I much prefer the Gracie Ctc but I like the sparring and sport side as well the chess mental game but self defense is much more the focus
Bas Rutten said something to the effect of "If I can fight with rules, do you think I can't fight if I took them all away?" I think it has to do with intensity. The GJJ class (combatives) starts out pretty chill and gets you to learn the techniques. The GC class doesn't have intense warm ups and rolling. Sport type BJJ classes are physically more intense and guys start rolling right away. Most GC guys probably couldn't perform very well (initially) in a more sport type competition BJJ class.
I agree with this. There are individuals (men,women,children) who find it socially awkward to talk to people let alone get on the ground with them and fight like your life depended on it in a practice setting. On top of that, if one or both parties are unsure what to do and rely on intensity alone, you’re more prone to injury. A lot of us have jobs and lives where we can’t afford to get injured in what is meant to be a learning environment. Gracie jiu jitsu is applicable to most of the world (since very few people in total know jiu jitsu) and sports jiu jitsu is the ability to take on the remainder population who do know. I think both are important. Just depends on what the individual wants.
@@larnizzo91 Yup. If you want to be some IBJJF athlete / competitor, go to a school that does that. You're not gonna fit in at a GJJ school and vice versa.
A 1 year CG guy will most likely lose to a 1 year guy from the old system because they haven't learned to endure in a match just yet. But after another year of rolling, the GC practitioner will be equal. A year after that, the GC guy will be better because they have better fundamentals from the beginning. I'm assuming that both are sports minded and spending the same amounts of time. When a guy from the old system takes the Combatives course, its not a refresher, they are actually surprised to learn many small details that they realize they should have known.
@@Basta11100% I’m from a Gracie ctc. We are doing DLRs, K guards, footlocks and all the modern sport stuff. As well as refreshers on the self defence aspects.
Ryron Gracie survived in his match against Andre Galvao who was a former adcc champ, so although they don't focus on sport fighting, I don't think it's fair to say they can't compete in sport matches
You actually don't get a blue belt after the test, you get a combatives belt. Then, another 100 classes with real rolling before you can get the blue belt.
I can tell you that all the training before rolling makes it so much safer for everyone. Nothing more dangerous than a beginner after watching UFC and wanting to join a BJJ gym.
Rolling on day 1 leads to a lot of attrition. It’s like taking somebody from an Amazonian tribe, putting them behind the wheel of a car and asking them to drive in New York City.
Michael Bishop said it best "it's hard to do jiu-jitsu when you are getting punched in the face." I infer that he was referring to sport jiu jitsu and not the kind of self-defense jiu-jitsu that Rickson and Royce practiced.
The reality is its hard to do Self Defence Gracie JiuJitsu vs. anyone except for people who cant fight. Thats the only scenario where this Gracie Jiu Jitsu actually works for most people... bigger opponent who has 0 clue about fighting. I come from an MMA Background and had 6 MMA fights 2008-2012 i recently restarted BJJ 3 months ago after 12 years break. And while its true that when rolling vs sports BJJ guys i see many opportunities for punching them in the face.. its also true that i get submitted a lot. Id say in a fight vs a Sports BJJ guy there is almost a 50% chance that i either knock him out or he submitts me and chokes me out. Now there are also some GJJ Students visiting our schook from time to time and i rolled with some of them and i was schocked....they were like completely helpless... Now Rickson and Royce ofc were different ... but the average GJJ practicioner is not Rickson or Royce... They are people who train striking but are incredible bad at it... they are people who train takedowns and takedown defence but are incredible bad at it and they are people who train BJJ techniques but are bad at it... The Sports guys are pure ground fighting but at least they are good at it ! As someone from MMA i d say the GJJ guys i rolled with were a joke... the sport BJJ guys however while exposing their face to punches a good amount also were hell to deal with from a balancing point of view because they really know how to manipulate posture and balance of someone who actually can fight
Brian Ortega got obliterated while playing closed guard, despite all that punch block series training.
@@lordadin from Gracie ctc and I have smashed sport guys depends on the person but to be fair I have done sport stuff as well jiu jitsu is so much more then just ground fighting starting from the knees which most American schools do sport should be second and deff done I love it but self defense should be the pillar
@@lordadalso Gracie self defense is just basic fundamental Bjj easy to do against sport guys
What an awesome coach and mentor this man is.
Sparring with brown and black belts on my first day led to me training 17 years. Everyone is different and knowing whether to make someone skip rolling in the beginning or kicking their ass on the first day is all part of being a great instructor!
Rolling with brown and black belts is probably the safest, most gentle roll a beginner could have (if the brown- and black belts aren't jerks). The risk of injuries and overall craziness is more likely with white belts sparring with each other I think.
@@gailvalleymartialarts Had the same thought. That's actually about the safest way to roll.
Its like taking a ramp vs taking the stairs. A 20 year old, single, aggressive, motivated dude will be better in the regular Jiu Jitsu, roll the first day. Its okay, your body can heal faster, you have energy, and likely not much responsibilities other than taking care of yourself.
A 35 year old with a wife and 2 kids, needs to ease into it more. Can't afford to get injured and miss work. Body is not what it used to. Acquiring the skill efficiently is of higher priority, less reliance on energy and aggression.
The original blue Belt (when the belt system was introduced in the 1940's), a blue belt had to be able to defend themselves against a non bjj opponent. At Gracie University, you earn your Combatives belt for this achievement. You then spend an additional 6 months learning BJJ vs BJJ to obtain your blue belt and the other belts. The purpose is to keep the original goal of self-defense and to keep that street switch active regardless of the skill level of your opponent.
You don't roll until you are a Combatives belt, because they want you to build proper reflexes upfront without developing bad habits that you will struggle to eliminate later.
80 classes for Combatives Belt (108-216 recommended practice sessions at home [online])
6 month wait time for Blue (regardless of home or Academy)
8 months for each additional stripe (at the Academy) without stringent testing. (No wait for Blue Belt Stripes [online method], but stringent testing for each stripe. 6 months for Purple Belt Stripes [also online method] with stringent testing.
Sport jiu jitsu also carries way higher risk of injury and turns ppl away since most have no solid tech in the beginning I'm 35 coming to end of my prime eventually I don't need 22 year old wrestler who only cares about competition and I like wrestling but unless u do mma the average person ain't wrestling and after college not worth the high risk of injury
80 classes for me will be 10 months worth of bjj. thats a long time before i am allowed to roll
As a college level wrestler I tried GC for the free week. when I found out there was no real rolling done at that location supposedly even at master level. I found a MMA gym that gave me the experience and intensity I wanted. For a true beginner or someone that wants a clear path forward for belt progression GC is definitely the way to go!
The problem with the old system where you roll the first day is that its very random what lessons you'll learn that day. Its also very instructor dependent. The instructor will cater to the average level of the class. That means that it will take 6 months before you learn a real move that you can actually execute in rolling. In that time, you'll mostly be flailing around.
Around 50 classes (having taken each class at least twice) I started rolling at other places. What I discovered is that my technique in 6 months was ahead of many people who have been doing it even 2 years. I smashed (gently) everyone within my experience up to a year. I could hang with the blue belts, rarely would they submit me as a 3 stripe.
The systematic approach to learning the techniques means that I could really study the details of a particular technique. Small details can produce large differences in the effectiveness of a particular technique. I studied the techniques meticulously.
The one disadvantage is the intensity and cardio. Rolling from the first day selects for guys who have the endurance to last, what saved me was the escapes.
I can’t believe people tolerate being treated like this, it’s so degrading. We as martial artist basically fought a 20 year war to make aliveness and immediate sparring standard practice, thus sending cooperative, dead-pattern arts to the dustbin of history. Now you want me to turn Gracie BJJ into strip mall karate? No thanks, we’ll just do actual Brazilian jiujitsu instead.
At my 90 day mark back in 2009 I would have destroyed these combatives students who don’t spar. They would have zero chance.
@@haircutdeluxewhile this might be true at the 90 day mark. At blue belt level, you won’t be destroying anybody from Gracie. Their techniques will be much better, more comprehensive, higher level.
The sweeps and escapes are taught with such great detail that me as a 3 stripe (6 mo) couldn’t be pinned down by 2-3 year blue belts from other schools. Their control techniques were sloppy. I’m talking side control, mount, taking the back, guard, since they never do a deep dive into them. It was easy to get out.
They couldn’t submit me either since their technique was sloppy and with easy exploits. Like their armbar were just not tight, large gaps, it was too easy to pull my arm out. Their chokes were never properly aligned, it’s so easy to slip a hand in pry them open.
I don’t necessarily agree with the no rolling until after combatives, that’s too long. However, there is a value to a systematic approach to learning especially in the very early stages.
It makes no sense to teach advance level counters to beginners who can’t even execute the move they are supposedly countering. I’ve seen this at other schools.
@@Basta11 There are no advanced techniques, there are only fundamentals. The language and training concepts you’re using are from the antiquated martial arts that were exposed as non functional back at the first UFC in 1993.
Grappling is about proficiency. This is why sometimes a judoka, wrestler, or MMA fighter will be awarded blue belt very quickly, because it represents their level of proficiency. GC students who have not sparred do not have any proficiency. They can not wrestle, they have no base, bo timing, no balance, no conditioning, it’s all academic and not physical. In other words, their proficiency is fake because they can’t actually do it in real life.
Why would anyone choose to do that instead of just training BJJ normally and learning how to do BJJ normally? And why do you GC people keep writing like you’re pretending to be a wise and experienced instructor when you can’t grapple?
I'm helio and Gracie university side and I come from Carlson Gracie first they did self defense to but I much prefer the Gracie Ctc but I like the sparring and sport side as well the chess mental game but self defense is much more the focus
there is some rolling for white belts in the reflex development classes
Bas Rutten said something to the effect of "If I can fight with rules, do you think I can't fight if I took them all away?" I think it has to do with intensity. The GJJ class (combatives) starts out pretty chill and gets you to learn the techniques. The GC class doesn't have intense warm ups and rolling. Sport type BJJ classes are physically more intense and guys start rolling right away. Most GC guys probably couldn't perform very well (initially) in a more sport type competition BJJ class.
I agree with this. There are individuals (men,women,children) who find it socially awkward to talk to people let alone get on the ground with them and fight like your life depended on it in a practice setting.
On top of that, if one or both parties are unsure what to do and rely on intensity alone, you’re more prone to injury. A lot of us have jobs and lives where we can’t afford to get injured in what is meant to be a learning environment.
Gracie jiu jitsu is applicable to most of the world (since very few people in total know jiu jitsu) and sports jiu jitsu is the ability to take on the remainder population who do know.
I think both are important. Just depends on what the individual wants.
@@larnizzo91 Yup. If you want to be some IBJJF athlete / competitor, go to a school that does that. You're not gonna fit in at a GJJ school and vice versa.
A 1 year CG guy will most likely lose to a 1 year guy from the old system because they haven't learned to endure in a match just yet.
But after another year of rolling, the GC practitioner will be equal. A year after that, the GC guy will be better because they have better fundamentals from the beginning.
I'm assuming that both are sports minded and spending the same amounts of time.
When a guy from the old system takes the Combatives course, its not a refresher, they are actually surprised to learn many small details that they realize they should have known.
@@Basta11100%
I’m from a Gracie ctc. We are doing DLRs, K guards, footlocks and all the modern sport stuff. As well as refreshers on the self defence aspects.
They do sport to buddy right after blue belt lol it's not much diff besides they can fight better then sport guys on the street
It’s called a “bait and switch”.