Classical Greek Culture
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 27 มิ.ย. 2024
- In this lecture, we do an overview of major cultural developments during the Classical period in Greece.
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TH-cam has recommended some absolute random nonsense through the years. But finding a channel like this makes it worth it.
Your channel is exactly what I imagined for a long time. Weird how big TH-cam is now, that probably someone already made what you really like. Thank you for that.
Important question, Super smash bros or golden eye?
I found this channel by searching "Thersites" into TH-cam because I was fascinated by the character and how he's portrayed in the Iliad. This channel really encapsulates the same spirit of the character (in a good way lol) and I love it.
I’m addicted to Ancient Greece
20:35 Ancient Greeks had access to both salt and alum as preservatives (alum is used more as a fixant for dye, an antiperspirant, and to make glues water resistant, but in small amounts can be and was used in food preservation). They did have dry preserves. Like cooking fish over low heat with a lot of smoke for a long time, then keeping it in vessels lined with powdered salt. Lye water could preserve eggs for up to 2 years. Vegetables could be pickled and fermented. Roots specifically just needed to be kept in a cool dry place off the ground to keep them good for 6-8 months. Ice wells/houses (which are usually communal) were around in ancient Greece as well. They could be used to store meat. There's also dry grain storage. Milk would have been made into cheeses etc.
Food preservation in virtually all cultures around the world goes back to pre-agricultural society. But you don't get to have a sedimentary surplus society (civilization) without it. The idea that greeks didn't have ready access to preservatives is ridiculous. When they had salt and salt is the number 1 preservative throughout all of history and into modern times. It's why a McDonald's hamburger can look like the day it was made when saved for 9 years. McDonald's themselves have even commented on such pictures that have been floated saying that their food has very low moisture and very high salt content.
The division between Platonists and Aristotelians is truly visceral. I was always the latter during college and now I find myself pacing or at least standing in all my classes. It feels unnatural to be sitting down.
If you are a Thomist (an aficionado of Thomas Aquinas), you are, therefore, at least somewhat conversant with Aristotle. I am a Thomist.
Thanks for this breakdown. Much enjoyment.
Best narator\voice\simple delivery.
Thanks for your hard work. Particularly enjoy the lectures on Byzantine emperors
This lecture made for a very nice evening. Thank for making such high quality material available. Cheers!
This is outstanding. Laymen, like me, are able to learn from this. Thank you.
I love this channel
Could watch your videos all day. ( sometimes I literally do )
A hour long lecture great
My like and comment. Love your channel man
Excellent lecture, thank you very much.
I guess we’re frogs gathered around your pond 🐸🏛🐸
Thanks for your effort and your uploads!
Great in depth coverage and analysis. And very interesting topic as usual.
Plato's pond quote also refers to the Aegean itself, where most Greeks lived liked frogs around a pond.
Please talk about it all day
I read this as “Classical Greek Cthulhu”.
Please help me.
Great content.
Amazing channel. Soooo good. Please keep going!
Thank you for sharing 👍
Really interesting stuff here thersites, thanks a bunch for posting this.
Great video as usual. You're a naturally engaging speaker and your videos have helped me learn a lot about ancient history.
I want to offer a slight correction though: Heraclitus didn't develop the law of noncontradiction. In fact, he was said by Plato and Aristotle to deny it, and his philosophy is actually about the ubiquity of contradictions: "The ocean is the purest and foulest water; for fish it is healthy and drinkable, but for men it is toxic and deadly".
Sorry to be a nitpick, Heraclitus was actually a major focus of my undergrad.
Democritus wasn't wrong about atoms (smallest parts) being indivisible. Modern chemists were wrong to call divisible elemental particles atoms.
Good video.
Commenting for the Al Gore rhythm or something idk
I’m really glad I found your channel! I’ve been watching it for a few weeks now, and it’s been a good way to keep sane as I’ve been seriously ill this week
Your videos are of great quality, keep it up bro
Thank you for the great video Basilieus
It's always impressive just how much useful and interesting information you can pack into your videos, thank you very much!
One small note, if I may: at 33:12-36:02 when you deal with ancient Greek theatre, you talk about the amphitheatre of Dionysus, but what you show is the Herodeion, the theatre of Herodes Atticus, built during the 2nd c. AD.
The amphitheatre of Dionysus had wooden stalls and a wooden stage, and it's a bit more to the east of the Herodeion.
Wow they should really mention in more Greek sources about the oikos. As soon as you explained that it made more sense why all those people picked up random babies that had been left out for exposure.
Thank you for new content!
Damn I was about to go to sleep on time. Gotta catch this hour long thersites video first
Efflorescence of culture.
_Nice_
I love the proliferation of history and STEM on TH-cam. Hopefully we make it through the disinformation age by teaching people the lessons of history.
Excellent
New Thersites already dropped. Woo!
Why was the Phrygian helmet so popular despite Phrygia being gone by the peak of Classical Greece?
It was probably a design by Greeks living in Phrygia or an adaptation of a Phrygian design. The Phrygians were still around, they had just lost control of their coastal areas to the Greeks. There were significant ties and interactions between the two peoples.
This is awesome, thank you. Love from Chile
Great video
Very thorough!
Great teaching man please keep making these🤜🤛
I would have gone the rest of my life calling them pottery *shards.* Thanks Thersites I stand corrected
Both shard and sherd are considered acceptable. I might be getting this reversed, but Americans usually say sherd and the British say shard.
Fantastic video :)
Thanks, profé
Very interesting. ^-^
العلاقات اليونانية التركية الآن هي في الطريق إلى التحسن و حسن الجوار و العيش بسلام ،و سوف يكون هناك تبادل تجاري بين البلدين و ينمو الٱقتصاد و تصبح جزيرة قبرص مزدهرة حتى يتمكن اليونان و الترك من نسج علاقات جديدة خالية من الحروب و الإعتداء،اعرف أنه خارج الموضوع الثقافي الخاص بتاريخ اليونان.
This was yet another excellent lecture. Question though: Why did you not mention Socrates with the great philosophers? Wasn't he Plato's teacher/mentor?
Whenever I feel down, and want to learn some history I come to this channel; I'm very thankful to you for your selfless efforts towards making these historical presentations. The Byzantine emperor series will always be some of my favourite content on the internet; but honestly whatever videos you make seem to be exceptionally made. Some (including me) would consider you the "goat" of historical content on youtube.
I am honestly very suprised that your channel has not grown more, maybe it's more of a matter of a lack of SEO/marketing of your channel on the site? I just can't explain it with any lack of quality as both the topics and the content itself is exceptional in my opinion.
What’s the link for the Byzantine series?
@@drgeorgek Just search up "Byzantine Empererors" on youtube and you should get the playlist first result.
I for one could listen to you talk about this for hours I haven't read nearly as much Greek History as Roman but this was so interesting I might have to.
I thank you so much for doing this.
Roman history does seem easier to digest if you have a European or English speaking background. The Greek polis (cities) and Athens really were democracies in the 4th century B.C. They had a very difficult time keeping a unity and coherent purpose. They were very different from King Phillip and his son Alexander - from Macedonia - northern Greece. The Roman empire put an end to Greek independence.
The "atom" of Democritus is different than today's atom concept: For Democritus it is something "indivisible"; that's why he chose that name. But the "atom" in periodic table, as we know today, is something "divisible".
Favourite channel
You could have just said that the priestess of Athena was a master debater. Would have been so much easier.
First to comments! And, for one of my favorite subjects!👍
Nice.
"We know that he (i.e. Plato) was an avid wrestler but he never won Olympic glory. So, he was not Kurt Angle..." 😂
I bet Plato couldn’t philosophize with a broken freaking neck.
@@NickPoeschek Honestly, Angle's infamous "intensity" was as much the reason for his success as for his terrible injuries. The latter led to his prescription pill abuse and personal issues. Wrestling and performing are a sad business.
Yes!
Did the Greeks ever have to do battle with the Phoenicians (Tyre, Sidon, Carthage) in conducting their trade in the Mediterranean?
I thing you'll find the sicilian wars a very interesting topic
The societal structure part is a bit problematic. In Athens that is taken as an example, rich men didn't have any more political power. At best they had the right to take to office of the equivalent of the city's banker because if they stole, their fortune could be taken away. The only political office where they could use their power was getting elected as general because all the other offices were being appointed at random. So, Pericles was getting elected as general time and again, Nicias, the richest Athenian became a general too. But Nicias' opinion on the expedition to Syracuse wasn't taken into account, they ignored his hesitation, made the expedition with him in charge too, and he got killed. The other noble, rich guy, Alciviades was exiled. The generals after the victory of Arginousai were executed, it was a dangerous office even if you won. Later powerful "politicians" like Demosthenes would avoid taking any office.
As for slaves, no Athenian was a sleve in Athens, this was illegal. And no, most of the slaves were not prisoners of war. At Laurion most slaves were Thracian men while at home most slave maids were also Thracian, women. This was because Thracians used to sell their children as slaves in Greek colonies of Thrace. Athens had no way to be getting tens of thousands of Thracian slaves by war. A lot were Paphlagonian, were Athens didn't even make a campaign. The life at mines wasn't that bad. I have been at Thorikos for example and it had houses for the workers and one of the first theatres next to them. It was bad enough for free xitizens to not want to work there, but other than that it was ok. People getting poisoned gradually by the toxic dust and gas sure but this happens today in some mines and factories too. Another drawback of working in a mine was that unlike working as a slave in a shop or something, you would never get enough money to buy your freedom. But a slave working as a seller at a shop could and often did buy his freedom.
I was literally just about to sleep.
I guess that Morpheus can wait.
Plato the snob? lol
Best boi since gibbons
surely sparta was also a monarchy? it had 2 kings ruling at the same time.
yes
Mono means 1 bro
@@Laocoon283 right-kingship better term for Sparta.
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The ancient Greeks owe a great debt of gratitude to their teachers, the Africans in Egypt.
Concerning Parmenides philosophy regarding "the nature of reality and whether being able to think of a thing makes it real," my son approached me once as a toddler, after quietly pondering alone on the kitchen floor for several minutes one morn, surrounded by his toys, and in all sincerity asked, "is it make-believe that makes things real?" Deep thoughts spring forth outta the mouths of babes more often than you'd think. It's not all babble.
I respect your philosophy and other side of the coin. The right big 3 would beat the right depth every time. Idk if Ky, Bron and AD would be the right big 3 but they shouldn’t be discouraged bc of the Russ situation that was the WRONG big 3 lol. The more your studs do the less talented the supporters have to be
almost invisible, and as it turns, almost indivisible also
40:25 The image of a Greek teacher travelling to Egypt and then showing off his origins as "coming from gods themselves" just to be proven wrong by the Egyptian because Egypt history predates that of Greece made me think.
Ancient Greeks are well known for having crafted stories out of nowhere to justify things: "myths and legends". (in the modern world we normally call them "lies")
That example made me think that an ancient Greek had actually just found one, if not the biggest, weaknees to this construct of theirs. Their stories focused heavily on their pantheon of gods which means that any society with an history, and consequentely a pantheon of gods, older than that of ancient Greeks would have been seen as a natural nemesis/danger to much of the Greek society because one of the pillars on which this society sat would have had no value there. Funny.
Gosh idk what it is, but today my farts have been straight STANKY
I wish more comments were of this nature
It seems to me that the forgoten philosophers where much more interesting than the more dominant line of philosophy. ¿it is possible that there was a politicas and ideological bias in favor of the dominant trend in that time?
Absolutely. The philosophers whose works ended up "surviving" were the ones that got copied the most during the Middle Ages. Of course there was political ideological (and also religious) bias that led to many ancient philosophical works being copied a lot less than say Plato. And this applies not only to philosophy but even to other genres of ancient literature that might have in some way "offended" the established social order or accepted societal norms or religious sensibilities of the medieval scribes or their wealthy patrons. Of course propaganda and suppression of dangerous or annoying ideas had actually been around even before the Christian era.
@@ntonisa6636 it had nothing to do with the middle ages or Christianity; those works were already vanishing by the classical period. I suppose the reason Plato's works survived is owed to Plato's vested interested in pedagogy as opposed to the other schools, incentivising students of the academy and future scribes to preserve those works due to their academical worth. You ought to be mindful of the fact that in ancient times, books would've been composed in less durable material such as papyri. If one's work did not gain enough traction at a time, it'd not compel any scribe to copy it, thus dooming it to wither away in a rather short passage of time; hence, for example, some of Aristophanes' plays survived, whilst others did not.
Does anyone know who this dude is, I love his videos but I’m the type of person that needs to put a face to a voice and name.
Are you sure about Plato being motivated by money? Wasn't he the same man who risked his life to instruct the ruler in Syracuse? The negative account of him sounds spurious.
Nothing bad enough can be said about Plato. His negative influence throughout the centuries can't be overstated. Nietzsche described him better than anyone.
Plato wasn't any greedier than the other professional teachers, but he is more hypocritical about it. The Academy did charge students, but Plato argued that he was only taking the best, most noble, and most virtuous students. In reality, his judgment of such qualities was often based on how eminent a student's family was. I pointed out an instance where he rejected one student for being insufficiently aristocratic. On the other hand, he was friendly with the general Iphicrates, a man notorious for his temper and who even went so far as to make veiled threats against a jury if they failed to acquit him. Iphicrates, of course, was also one of the greatest Athenian generals and held a great deal of influence in the polis. My general point about Plato is that while he spoke of himself as being above earthly concerns, he most certainly was not and so we should not accept his criticisms of his rivals at face value. The so-called Sophists most likely did believe in the value of what they taught as much as Plato believed in the value of his own doctrines.
21:50 the mass graves are bias towards the lowest & most impoverished of Athenians though, as these people have always been the most succeptible to disease due to being malnourished in the first place. They aren't indicative of general society at that time in Athens which was indeed fairly well off; however, they did have a large amount of people go hungry.
Pretty good you should read the Bible book
Mmm
You forgot (voluntary or not ...) to mention MACEDONIA in your map, wich did not belong to Greeks-city states, but was a total independent country from greece. And Macedonians were not hellenes ...
Mnn. Classical...
Oi is i
I don’t know how to write the pronunciation to you in English. Like “ee”.
Let’s pretend your language is phonetic, that i is read as ee short: ikonomia is economy. Oikonomia.
So please don’t say oi when you read oi. Say i or ee (short) instead.
Oh, BTW I didn’t mention it: the video is really good. It’s just that I am so irritated by this detail. Sorry for that 😉
Greece was the first leap towards individualism, of man’s liberation from men, especially the myths of others men created for political control.
theristes needs to learn a lot more about greek philosophy. it's the foundation of western inquiry.
a legacy rather usurped by Rome and tainted by Christianity, creating what it is now.
@@beepboop204 *made better by Rome and Christ
Just because generations of historians accept an abstract concept as foundational does not mean it is real. "Western inquiry" is a story told to us by several centuries of revision via class warfare. I think we should be encouraging people to work to expand that definition, instead of working to please academics who are part of a cultural tradition of interpretation.
Tldr: "Western inquiry" is the menu, not the meal.
@@theletterw3875 You also need to learn more about Greek philosophy. Or do you claim to?
@@beepboop204 Jesus Christ was profoundly influenced by Stoicism.
They hired body guards to protect their children ..... ok kinda like how parents feel now ... especially at school shameful
There whole polis was the core of their identity and their cultural and religious north star
That’s no different from a city-state
We don't have democracy but oligarchies ruling the parliaments.
Why do you think all of the poleis guarded their citizenship so dearly, especially when the people broadly shared religion, culture, and a spirit of xenophobia? I can't think of any society nowadays that remains as hostile to immigrants.
Nobody:
Thersities : th-cam.com/video/ajDUMMaVDwE/w-d-xo.html
The map shown here is completely out of reality and makes one wonder to what propaganda is this channel owner pandering too when it shows the most ancient Greek oracle, Dodone in Epirus, in an area marked as "settle by Greeks" (LOL!) and Macedonia, the birthplace of the Dorian tribe, as not even settled by Greeks. Utter rubbish.
The dorians cme from the north and settled down south. Herodot doesn't call the macedonians greek for example. On the coast there were greek settlements, but I don't know how greek the macedonin interior was at that point.
@@konradvonschnitzeldorf6506 It is not my fault that you are clueless and educationally incapable of reading Herodotus properly. I keep seeing this trend among half-illiterate historically-wise westerners. Had you ever read Hertodotus properly yourself you would know that Herodotus :
1) Clearly and unequivocally locates the start of the Dorian descend in Macedonia - he says Dorians were a moving tribe (also existing in Thessally then establishing for good in Macedonia) and then from there they crossed the Olympus, went down to Thessaly, then through Doris and then they conquered most parts of Peloponesus. He also clearly identifies them as the tribe of Hellenes ancestors of the Dorian tribes, while the tribe of Achaeans were the ancestors of the Ionian Greeks. It is understood from that Dorians (under the tribal name of Hellenes) through controlling most of Greece in their various sub-tribal settings (Epirus, Macedonia, Thessaly, Aetolia, much of Peloponesus, Crete etc.) they spread their tribal name to all the Greek tribes exactly how the Achaeans, ancestors of Ionians, had spread their name as the national name of Greek tribes back in the Bronze Age (and it is clearly implied in Homer, separately verified by Hittite archaeological records etc.). To be noted, Herodotus account is sourced at Delphi Oracle, which as a religious institutions should have had the best available records.
2) Not only he considered Macedonians as Greeks but he lifted the role of Alexander I pretty much as saviour of Greece. Herodotus considers Alexander I of Macedonia as the No1 reason Persians failed in their campaign - Alexander I appears before every single battle passing information to the free Greeks, explaining his motives as a Greek nationalist, and saving the day multiple times including of course the crucial battle of Platea.
Now there are two passages in Herodotus where propagandists and detractors fool the half-illiterate people like you.
The first one refers to the progression of Xerxes' campaign on land where he randomly says that the "first Greeks" to submit were... Thessalians. Idiotic people consider this as "proof" of the non-Greekness of Macedonia. What they omit of course was that Herodotus clearly refers to the "first FREE Greeks". There were already countless Greek states already submitted to Persians, to Xerxes, to Darius and to their predecessors! Macedonia had submitted more than 2 decades before to Xerxe's father, Darius. It was Alexander I's father who did so, as much as countless Ionian states had done to Xerxes' grandfather. As such Thessaly submitting was the first of the free states. One has to be a complete and utter moron to take this as an "argument'.
The second one refers to personal detractors of Alexander Ii in the Olympics. Herodotus actually tells us the story right after the story of his reaction to the Persian embassy (killing the Persian embassy for disrespecting them) but then being forced to re-sumbit to a Persian general who came there to check what was going on, bribing him and giving him his sister as wife (i.e. ending up having family intermarriages with barbarians). On this, he says that then when he came down to Olympia to participate in the Olympics there were some detractors of him who called him a barbarian. Herodotus clearly says that he was PERSONALLY accused. Not Macedonians, but him in person! Had Macedonians been non-Greeks they would had been anyway banned from the Olympics. The law was strict : Pure Blooded Greek States sending Pure Blooded Greek Athletes. Had Macedonians been considered by other Greeks as "barbarians" they could not even show up in the first place, not even as spectators, let alone participate! Alexander I came down and registered and only after some detractors brought a case against him. Since he was PERSONALLY accused he presented himself before the judges and as Herodotus says, he explained the whole history and family tree of HIS PERSONAL FAMILY, not of Macedonians, Why? Because he was accused PERSONALLY, the Macedonians were not accused, they were accepted in the Olympics just like any other Greek state. In fact there is no greater and more absolute proof than this story.
But propagandists today don't care. They will sell any crap to illiterate history-wise people like you.
@@konradvonschnitzeldorf6506 “Now that these descendants of Perdiccas [i.e: the Macedonians] are Greeks, as they themselves say, I myself chance to know and will prove it in the later part of my history.” (Herodotus, “Histories”, 5.22)
@@dinos9607 sorry I vae just seen it, I don't wanna go through the whole book again searching for macedonians but I did read it and have it here. I just answered out of memory an I seem to remember Herodot called Alexander a friend of the greeks, but not a greek specifically. I think it comes mostly from the macedonians not being organized in Polis. To be fair, it is hard to see from the few sources we have if people at the time or the macedonians themselves thought they were greek. Ethnicity and ethnic identity is very hard to track over the ages and it is sadly being misuses by alot of modern nationalists. But thanks for the thourough answer, don't know why I felt the need to even start this debate.
@@konradvonschnitzeldorf6506 See...? See how non-Greeks distort Greek language, Greek history. You understand how frustrating it is to us? Let me give you examples forst then I will answer your "point", one which you would had never done if you had really a deeper knowledge of such issues :
Eros = in modern Greek it means indeed "romantic love" almost exclusively but in antiquity it meant attraction and coupling or preference of any sort. But somehow when it came to men, in the words of erastis and eromenos which meant tutor and tutored.... it had to definitely mean sexual acts isn't it? LOL!
Xanthos = in modern Greek it indeed means blond (though Greeks attribute it to people who are considered brown haired in Bulgaria and Serbia, let alone in Poland or Sweden! In ancient Greek however it meant any other hair colour from black, thus including the very dark brown. Yet somehow Europeans saw in Ancient Greeks "blonds".... Nordic Blondies singing ABBA dancing queen or something! LOL! They invented whole theories about "blond Grees" which was basically a cope for the factual reality of Europeans never ever developing genuine civilization of their own (only nation in Europe that did so were the Greeks - others including the very Italians received via successive and continuous culture transfers).
Filos = Friend and any notion coming with it (including being keen on). So the word Philhellene was back in antiquity primarily used FOR GREEKS not for foreigners (only foreigner attributed to it prior to Roman times (when the word was eventually dilluted) was some Egyptian Pharao (of dubious origins himself, maybe not entirely Egyptian afterall) who raised a mostly Greek mercenary army and who heavily promoted Greek interests in Egypt against the invading Persians - Greeks had a heavy presence there already). However apart this exception the word was first and foremost given to ethnic Greeks who were more keen on the general well-being of all Greeks rather than the local interests of their local state. I.e. in other words? The word philhellene was attributed to NATIONALIST GREEKS in juxtaposition to localist Greeks. The attribution of this word to "foreigners aiding the Greeks" was an fashion of 1800s AD!!!! LOL! In antiquity it basically meant "Nationalist Greek"".
Alexander I was the No1 reason of the Greek victory against the Persian invasion. Herodotus is adamant on that. He mentions how proud was Alexander I as a nationalist and how he did not care for his own kingdom but rather for all Greeks - indeed he was a nationalist (we need to remember that had the Persian campaign succeeded Alexander I would had been much better off! Yet he undermined it because he was a nationalist). Herodotus clearly mentions Alexander I participating in the Olympics, thus there is no doubt not only on his nationality but also on the nationality of his kingdom and his people. The people who attacked him in the Olympics did not attack Macedonians and Macedonia (if they were not Greeks that would be ultra easy to show and Alexander I would not had tried going there in the first place). They rather attacked him in person because he married his sister to a Persian alongside a hefty bribe to avoid repercussions on his past actions (he killed a whole Persian embassy because they were rude!) - it is the story that Herodotus says just before the story of the Olympics.
Now see? See what we have to go through with all you people being so uninformed in these issues and creating fantasy stories out of thin air. You cannot imagine how enervating is all that. And on top we appear the "angry" ones or the "history nazis" who correct everyone for every little details. Well thank you very much but no! What we demand is people who do not have a clue to sit down and listen to those who know and who can bring the solid arguments.
Now as for the "city-state" this again is a 19th century definition which does not at all convey reality. Greeks lived in regions not in city-states. Sure there existed city-states but these were for the most oversee colonies - and again plenty of them such as in South Italy and Sicily were regions not city-states, since they covered a far larger region and included other cities as well.
Today nobody calls Luxembourg a city-state even if it is compared with states such as Russia, Canada, USA, China and Brazil!. Luxembourg is called a small state, a mini-state if you like. Yet it has 2500 km² which is what the state of Attica had in antiquity, though it was for the most averaging a 3000 km²: Oh yes; Athens was not a city-state. It was the capital city of the state of Attica. Likewise Sparta was not a state, it was the capital city o the state of Lacedaemona ruling over the region of Laconia, itself bigger than Attica and then ruled over much and almost all of Peloponesus, far bigger than Attica. Spartans lived in no city-state. Attica and Lacedaemona had many smaller towns within just like Luxembourg has today. Thessalians had also a big, federal, state with many cities. Macedonia likewise was a state covering a region. Pretty much only a minority of Greeks lived in true city-states. Most lived in regional states. To note now that originally ALL these states weer kingdoms or that Sparta continued to be a kingdom even post-reforms is unecessary, I think you get the point that the notion of Athenian 'city-state" vs. Macedonian "kingdom" is the silliest point one could make on ethnicity.
Honestly, when I first heard it I was speechless. I said no! Noooo.... they can't be THAT dumb! LOL!
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