Hey, love your content, I was wondering if it would be interesting for you to make a video on late era Greek armies, specifically those around the rise of the Republic, like later cataphracts or the so called thorakitai units etc.
Very well done .! Lots of essential info delivered in relaxed , pleasant manner - not easy to do. I enjoyed the Crete / Minoan stuff too. Quite refreshing to hear Achilles described as a ' douche ' - an adjective not found in my copy of Homer but very fitting . Is there an equivalent word in Ancient Greek I wonder .?
There’s a popular attitude in academia that if the ancients said it happened, they must be lying and we should refute it. Some historians in particular seem to always wind up arguing that “nothing happened, it was so gradual no one even noticed”. They apply this to indo-European migrations as well as sudden political upheavals. The thing is, if “nothing happened” then why the hell does the world seem to change so much?
16:10 You state that the idea that military developments contributed to political developments has been dismissed. By whom? What is your source for such a sweeping statement?
Most scholarship over the last 20-30 years on the subject of Greek development during the Archaic has moved away from this notion. It is still prevalent in more general literature. There never really was a strong primary source basis for the argument to begin with and most of what was being used to build the case was 4th Century political philosophy, which had no real insight into anything before the 6th Century, not to mention that Plato and Aristotle were more interested in discussing their own ideas about state organization than in historical accuracy.
@@ThersitestheHistorian What specific scholarship? Can you point me to specific scholars or works that discuss the evolving understanding of the matter?
@@ryansyler8847 It's been a few years since I have read about this, but Ian Morris was the guy who got the ball rolling, at least with the stuff that he was working on prior to the last ten years or so when he essentially started doing "big history". The best starting place for anything hoplite-related right now is Men of Bronze, a collection of essays edited by Donald Kagan and Viggiano, which shows some different views on the topic. Most studies of Greek society and politics now also have the understanding that hoplites were not some kind of equivalent of a "middle class" and that hoplite battle in some form or fashion was around long before democracy.
I thought the era went as far back as 900 BCE. Or was the 9th Century BCE also considered a part of the Greek dark ages? The Spartans were crazy nationalist fascists. 😂
The 9th Century was still part of the Greek Dark Ages, but there is some evidence of growth in the years leading up to 800. There were a few sites in the 9th Century, such as Lefkandi, which emerged and prospered in that period, but all we have are the remains of these small settlements without anything in the way of writing or other evidence.
Why is Africa designation way off on the left XD You realize Greeks traded with Aethiopians and Eguptians way more than any other civilization. Both of which are in Africa.
Pronounced: Mar-say; "...something approaching photorealism"? Sorry, that is not what they were aiming at, idealism was what they sought.....What is so difficult to define polis?: ancient Greek city-state. The small state in Greece originated probably from the natural divisions of the country by mountains and the sea and from the original local tribal (ethnic) and cult divisions.
@@voiceofreason2674 Homo History. I live in West Virginia. I have war dogs; horses; steel; weapons and Land. You see Dorians yet live and we will always rule you.
It’s curious how Carthage and Rome were founded in the 8th century BCE as this revolution was going on. It’s like there was this huge movement of different peoples at the same time around the Mediterranean.
You mentioned the Greek colony of Massalia (Marseille) in coastal Gaul, what is now France, but you could have spoken a bit about the Greek colonies of not only Sardinia and Corsica, but also the Iberian peninsula, coastal Spain, in particular Catalonia. This is a significant topic considering the Greek colonies of Iberia were rivals to the Punic Carthaginian ones and were responsible for introducing the first sophisticated urban cultures to the Iberians, an impact as profound as Magna Graecia.
The point of this video is not to talk about the greek colonies, but the archaic period in the greek world, amongst which the foundation of colonies is a main feature.
Gotta be honest, I've always found the Spartans to be very underwhelming. Why couldn't Frank Miller make a comic about Thebes? Thebes needs a little love.
@Jason York "The only reason they beat Athens was due to a plague" that so devastatingly incorrect. Sparta beat Athens because Athens couldn't stop making mistakes, and then Sparta branched out diplomatically and got Persian funding for their navy. Lysander was a better general than any of the Athenians at the end of the war.
The reading my professor gave on this era was SO dense and longwinded and addressed the reader as if we already had vast knowledge, I had no idea what was going on, so glad I found this video!
I enjoyed your lecture, I def enjoyed the fact you tried to emphasis religion. I really think this one facet of history is something people today really have the hardest time wrapping there heads around.
Too bad for you who have to put up with ill informed teachers. In the US history teachers are pretty much only concerned about US history and that’s it.
@@klausbrinck2137 Archaic is not pre history. Even 2000 BC there were written records of the sumarians. I would say everything before 3000/4000 BC is prehistory
@@donttakeitpersonal8704 You could be right, in principle. But historians tend to set the begin of historiography at 500BC (Herodot). Written records isn´t tha same as historiography, even less if they´re full of superstition, fairy-tales and heavily influenced by mythology... But maybe the term "pre-history" is only loosely bound to the date of begin of historiography...
@@klausbrinck2137 The sumarians and Akkadians used writing for their daily life. They noticed the import of grain and other supplies and used their own writing system for that ( cuneiform). But at the end its always guessing, so no one can really tell when prehistory starts or ends..
the political systems of all of these cities, specially Athens and Sparta remind me so much of that of early Rome... even the way of doing things were identical. so I can't help myself but think that Rome was somehow, founded to be like a greek polis from the begining, or something like that.. maybe even by greeks themselves who knows..
I suspect that it is more the case that the Romans more or less manufactured their early history at a later date and modeled it after examples from the Greek world. Some of the details are a little suspicious, such as how the Republic was founded just one year before Athenian democracy. Early Roman records were also supposedly lost during the Gallic invasion of 390 BCE.
1) The greek polises were politically diverse, contrary to ideal that Greeks were somehow Democratic by Nature. That essentialist ideology is clearly ahistorical. It's interesting to see that democracy was alien to Greek Political thought, and that Greek Political leadership believed in autocratic and oligarchic thinking. It challenges western ideals about Political equality. I'm also starting to see that the greek polis social classes were rooted in the Political imperatives of survival of these polises. These polises seemed to dominate other polises to dictate the larger Greek Empire structure. So the cultural-social dynamics of the polises were predicated on the concrete methods of survival and domination so as to thrive in the Greek Political context. It's interesting how the tyrants were liked by Greek polis folks, unlike the ideal that the people saw themselves as Political agents defining their own distinct Political identities and therefore participating in the Political process. These tyrants seemed to be the Political identity and partaker in the Political process and the people seemed to think these tyrants were automatically thinking about their wellbeing. The people clearly conceived themselves in relation to some hiearachical thinking where they freely subordinated themselves to someone of some social superiority. With this in mind, tyranny was actually just the guidance of Sheppards guiding the sheep into whatever the leader wanted AND the people seemed to think these leaders has good reasons to put people into these subordinated statuses. The rigid social stratification into elites, business class, military class, ordinary people, healots etc shows that western equality is myth. Or at least, equality is seen within the intraclass context not interclass context.
The US and Europe are hardly comparable, but regarding the US I note you are assuming it might otherwise be now rational than it is. Which is unlikely.
@@qboxer To hazard a guess, I believe OP is ducking out because (to him) BCE implies the information presented will come with bias influenced by modern politics
I like your power point history better than some dumb high production show about it and definitely learn a lot more. Thx
Excellent user name!
Worth watching ! Aways incisive, intelligent, concise presentations. Thank you for your time and effort. Pat
This really is one of the best videos I have seen on the subject.
Love your videos, please do some on Rome please more Caesar
I will be making videos on the Republic and Empire in the relatively near future, so be on the lookout.
Hey, love your content, I was wondering if it would be interesting for you to make a video on late era Greek armies, specifically those around the rise of the Republic, like later cataphracts or the so called thorakitai units etc.
Yes, that is something that I will probably do in the summer or fall of this year.
I will have a test in two days on this subject. This video helped a lot, thanks
Very well done .! Lots of essential info delivered in relaxed , pleasant
manner - not easy to do. I enjoyed the Crete / Minoan stuff too.
Quite refreshing to hear Achilles described as a ' douche ' - an adjective not
found in my copy of Homer but very fitting . Is there an equivalent word
in Ancient Greek I wonder .?
Μαλάκας is a classic greek derogatory term
Iron Maiden?
Excellent!
Send a demo. Got turned down. Was lead guitarist in some random college bands though.
Dear Sir, best books on archaic Greece? Thank you kindly :)
There’s a popular attitude in academia that if the ancients said it happened, they must be lying and we should refute it. Some historians in particular seem to always wind up arguing that “nothing happened, it was so gradual no one even noticed”. They apply this to indo-European migrations as well as sudden political upheavals. The thing is, if “nothing happened” then why the hell does the world seem to change so much?
It's funny really. Considering how quite a few ancient historians have been surprisingly accurate. They certainly don't give them enough slack
Archaic Athens is my favourite! 🤩
16:10 You state that the idea that military developments contributed to political developments has been dismissed. By whom? What is your source for such a sweeping statement?
Most scholarship over the last 20-30 years on the subject of Greek development during the Archaic has moved away from this notion. It is still prevalent in more general literature. There never really was a strong primary source basis for the argument to begin with and most of what was being used to build the case was 4th Century political philosophy, which had no real insight into anything before the 6th Century, not to mention that Plato and Aristotle were more interested in discussing their own ideas about state organization than in historical accuracy.
@@ThersitestheHistorian What specific scholarship? Can you point me to specific scholars or works that discuss the evolving understanding of the matter?
@@ryansyler8847 It's been a few years since I have read about this, but Ian Morris was the guy who got the ball rolling, at least with the stuff that he was working on prior to the last ten years or so when he essentially started doing "big history". The best starting place for anything hoplite-related right now is Men of Bronze, a collection of essays edited by Donald Kagan and Viggiano, which shows some different views on the topic. Most studies of Greek society and politics now also have the understanding that hoplites were not some kind of equivalent of a "middle class" and that hoplite battle in some form or fashion was around long before democracy.
I thought the era went as far back as 900 BCE. Or was the 9th Century BCE also considered a part of the Greek dark ages? The Spartans were crazy nationalist fascists. 😂
The 9th Century was still part of the Greek Dark Ages, but there is some evidence of growth in the years leading up to 800. There were a few sites in the 9th Century, such as Lefkandi, which emerged and prospered in that period, but all we have are the remains of these small settlements without anything in the way of writing or other evidence.
Up the Irons...!!!!
Well that just kinda doubles down on the face that the Greeks were the “sea ppls
Why is Africa designation way off on the left XD You realize Greeks traded with Aethiopians and Eguptians way more than any other civilization. Both of which are in Africa.
Pronounced: Mar-say; "...something approaching photorealism"? Sorry, that is not what they were aiming at, idealism was what they sought.....What is so difficult to define polis?: ancient Greek city-state. The small state in Greece originated probably from the natural divisions of the country by mountains and the sea and from the original local tribal (ethnic) and cult divisions.
21:16
There is definitely no distinction between the US and judaism
Learn the Greek Hellenic pronunciation, please.
Polīs - Πόλις
Nobody asked you, loser.
A Farmer, Soldier, engineer that owns his own land and has no Archons was the first Citizen. The Hoplite revolution is not De-bunked you woman.
Lmao
@@voiceofreason2674 Homo History. I live in West Virginia. I have war dogs; horses; steel; weapons and Land. You see Dorians yet live and we will always rule you.
@@shadowforger2035 hell yes brother I got a baseball bat a bike and a Pekingese and I rent a tiny apartment but I’m tryna get like you
@@voiceofreason2674 lol 🤣
Read black Athena dude Martin brenal ...
Was Sparta really populated by a bunch of Gerard Bulters?
Absolutely.
Great video! Fascinating subject and very well presented.
It’s curious how Carthage and Rome were founded in the 8th century BCE as this revolution was going on. It’s like there was this huge movement of different peoples at the same time around the Mediterranean.
You mentioned the Greek colony of Massalia (Marseille) in coastal Gaul, what is now France, but you could have spoken a bit about the Greek colonies of not only Sardinia and Corsica, but also the Iberian peninsula, coastal Spain, in particular Catalonia. This is a significant topic considering the Greek colonies of Iberia were rivals to the Punic Carthaginian ones and were responsible for introducing the first sophisticated urban cultures to the Iberians, an impact as profound as Magna Graecia.
Yeah well, you should visit Marseille before you make that call 😂
No french people in sight, I'll tell you that much.
The point of this video is not to talk about the greek colonies, but the archaic period in the greek world, amongst which the foundation of colonies is a main feature.
Massalia wasn't even the biggest Greek city in the Far West (Beziers)
Thank you for producing this content! Archaic Greece is fascinating.
Gotta be honest, I've always found the Spartans to be very underwhelming. Why couldn't Frank Miller make a comic about Thebes? Thebes needs a little love.
I agree. Sparta is not very sympathetic, but they do make for excellent side characters.
Theres a reason vegeta is the a well beloved side character in dbz
What part of the Spartans is underwhelming? They are crazy, but they are overwhelming in their crazyness.
I love Sparta but hate ‘300’
@Jason York "The only reason they beat Athens was due to a plague" that so devastatingly incorrect. Sparta beat Athens because Athens couldn't stop making mistakes, and then Sparta branched out diplomatically and got Persian funding for their navy. Lysander was a better general than any of the Athenians at the end of the war.
The Phoenicians made a massive amount of money through trade during this period, as evidence the huge fleets they could provide their Persian masters.
The reading my professor gave on this era was SO dense and longwinded and addressed the reader as if we already had vast knowledge, I had no idea what was going on, so glad I found this video!
I enjoyed your lecture, I def enjoyed the fact you tried to emphasis religion. I really think this one facet of history is something people today really have the hardest time wrapping there heads around.
I hope my high school teacher is watching. She was so illl informed.
Too bad for you who have to put up with ill informed teachers.
In the US history teachers are pretty much only concerned about US history and that’s it.
Thank you for all these videos.
Hahaha, only you would put a statue with an erect phallus in the video caption. Well played sir, well played.
The statues are Etruscan
English isn't my mother tongue but I feel that this channel is really cool and educational. Thank you.
You have a very good voice and cadence for this
Lycurgus' Sparta sounds like communism.
Great video, I really love it. I am student from the Netherlands and I am using this to prepare myself for university Ancient Studies in Amsterdam.
Where are the lectures on classical Greece?
Interesting that we seem to know less about the archaic Greek age than about classical Greek age the former lasting longer.
Well, It´s called pre-history for a reason: Historiography wasn´t invented yet.
@@klausbrinck2137 Archaic is not pre history. Even 2000 BC there were written records of the sumarians. I would say everything before 3000/4000 BC is prehistory
@@donttakeitpersonal8704 You could be right, in principle. But historians tend to set the begin of historiography at 500BC (Herodot). Written records isn´t tha same as historiography, even less if they´re full of superstition, fairy-tales and heavily influenced by mythology... But maybe the term "pre-history" is only loosely bound to the date of begin of historiography...
@@klausbrinck2137 The sumarians and Akkadians used writing for their daily life. They noticed the import of grain and other supplies and used their own writing system for that ( cuneiform). But at the end its always guessing, so no one can really tell when prehistory starts or ends..
@@donttakeitpersonal8704 with this logic, then should we not also include the traders' cuneiform finger-counting within the science of mathematics?
The statues looks «etruscan».
Me on the left btw
🌻
❤
Is a Polis the extension of a tribe?
It is more of a City-State
These people should be avenged
Good luck with that
This channel is very unappreciated
👍
the political systems of all of these cities, specially Athens and Sparta remind me so much of that of early Rome... even the way of doing things were identical. so I can't help myself but think that Rome was somehow, founded to be like a greek polis from the begining, or something like that.. maybe even by greeks themselves who knows..
I suspect that it is more the case that the Romans more or less manufactured their early history at a later date and modeled it after examples from the Greek world. Some of the details are a little suspicious, such as how the Republic was founded just one year before Athenian democracy. Early Roman records were also supposedly lost during the Gallic invasion of 390 BCE.
1) The greek polises were politically diverse, contrary to ideal that Greeks were somehow Democratic by Nature. That essentialist ideology is clearly ahistorical. It's interesting to see that democracy was alien to Greek Political thought, and that Greek Political leadership believed in autocratic and oligarchic thinking. It challenges western ideals about Political equality.
I'm also starting to see that the greek polis social classes were rooted in the Political imperatives of survival of these polises. These polises seemed to dominate other polises to dictate the larger Greek Empire structure. So the cultural-social dynamics of the polises were predicated on the concrete methods of survival and domination so as to thrive in the Greek Political context.
It's interesting how the tyrants were liked by Greek polis folks, unlike the ideal that the people saw themselves as Political agents defining their own distinct Political identities and therefore participating in the Political process. These tyrants seemed to be the Political identity and partaker in the Political process and the people seemed to think these tyrants were automatically thinking about their wellbeing. The people clearly conceived themselves in relation to some hiearachical thinking where they freely subordinated themselves to someone of some social superiority. With this in mind, tyranny was actually just the guidance of Sheppards guiding the sheep into whatever the leader wanted AND the people seemed to think these leaders has good reasons to put people into these subordinated statuses.
The rigid social stratification into elites, business class, military class, ordinary people, healots etc shows that western equality is myth. Or at least, equality is seen within the intraclass context not interclass context.
Very debatable that democratic deliberation necessarily promotes rationality. The US and Europe today are pretty strong counter examples.
The US and Europe are hardly comparable, but regarding the US I note you are assuming it might otherwise be now rational than it is. Which is unlikely.
"BCE" I'm out...
Shai Hulud t-t-t-t-TRIGGERED!
BCE was in the title and you still clicked it. Welcome to the future, and an historical perspective. I agree with @micahjava- you're triggered.
Before Christian Era/ Christian Era. Christ is what’s common through it all.
You don't have to like the title of a dating system to appreciate the fantastic amounts of excellent content that Thersites produces.
@@qboxer To hazard a guess, I believe OP is ducking out because (to him) BCE implies the information presented will come with bias influenced by modern politics