Miniature V12 (50cc) Gets UPGRADED: Electronic Ignition, TUBULAR Exhaust Manifolds & Cooling
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 18 ก.ย. 2023
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DSF-V12 Engine Specs:
Dimension: 216 (L) x 161 (W) x 159 (H) mm
Weight: 4.5kg
Type: Single Over Head Cam, 24 Valves, four stroke
Fuel: Gasoline
Stroke: 18mm
Bore: 16.68mm
Compression Ratio: 9.5
Displacement: 49.89CC
Rev Speed: 2000~12000rpm
Spark Plugs: Iridium Spark Plugs
Cooling: Water Cooling & Dry Sleeve, Gear Water Pump
Lubrication: Splash Oiling with oil passage
Starter: Brushless Start Motor
Piston: Aluminum Alloy, Dual Ring
Ring: 1 × Ductile Ring & 1 × Fluorine Rubber Ring
Firing Order: 1-9-4-11-2-7-6-10-3-8-5-12
Crankshaft & Camshaft: One-Piece, Alloy Steel, Fully Supported
Carburetor: Big Dint, four stroke type
Others: reserved ports for upgrading to independent lubrication
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Needs a bigger coolant reservoir to get rid of the air in the system.
Coolant reservoir from a scooter? Like mbk aerox 😊
Needs a swirl pot
Yup, definitely way too many bubbles trapped in the loop. Tanks the efficiency of the coolant a lot.
Maybe even a vortex air remover.
and maybe somehow do a pressurized system, as that should also improve the system
I think getting bigger coolant reservoir to get rid of air in the engine and radiator could help. What could also help would be moving the radiator further from the engine so it doest absorb heat from it and it would improve airflow behind the fan. Btw thanks for another amazing video
I was about to say it, you can see the coolant getting aerated in the hoses
also the pc radiator might have air in it still as well they don't like to bleed unless the pipes are both facing upwards
Word
yup... the air pocket alone could be why its over heating
You can tell when the forbidden fruit drink turns into a forbidden fruit smoothie!😆Not sure of the coolant passage design but could build up air pockets in the heads and radiator. If you have it properly bled, should be solid even with cavitation of the wp. I like the idea of a larger reservoir or even better a large swirl pot. More coolant = more cooling capacity. EK used to make copper pc radiators in multi row configs. Not sure if they do anymore. I loved the mechanical fan. If you wanted something with more CFM or higher static pressure, google Bgears b-blaster.. theyre loud though.
You should design a 12-1 header system. That thing would absolutely scream with one.
and equal length?
y e s@@shize9ine
A Lamborghini doesn’t have 12 in 1 and it screams a Ferrari F12 has no 12 to 1 and it screams a Pagani Zonda has no 12 to 1 and it definitely screams. So where did you get your idea from???
@antonfloor344 youve obviously never heard a 12 to 1 exhaust
@@antonfloor344 from a 12-1 exhaust system because they are real and they do make a engine SCREAM, yes you can make an engine scream without a 12-1 exhaust but it will still sound different then other setups
but they are also very complicated to design and build so a V12 12-1 system, i highly doubt you can 3D print one reliably
C4 Corvette with 8-1 system th-cam.com/video/Ruljou6rxnc/w-d-xo.html
Scion FRS with 8-1 system th-cam.com/video/2aFcdsrgYu8/w-d-xo.html
Completion of 8-1 and 6-1 systems th-cam.com/video/DRI9CLF53Vw/w-d-xo.html
yes, the car's you mention do scream but its nothing compared to a x-1 headers
Mecanic here, my first advice would be that the fluid reservoir need to be sealed because pressure is related to boiling temperature so by adding pressure to your system (the water boiling into steam) your boiling temp is gonna rise (water gonna boil at 110~120°c instead of 100) and so your system will be more flexible for high reving for long time or for a smaller fan for your radiator and my second advice would be to purge you coolant system of any air because the air reduce the flow where the water will pass through just by sitting there, just by doing that you should get more water flow in your cooling system and so reduce the fan size and have a more efficient cooling system (you could do that by adding a purge screw where your cooling tube is highest and one on your radiator, also it will help to place the cooling reservoir at the highest point of the cooling system). hope it will help you
I'm not sure those flexible tube fittings could handle that much pressure, and upgrading from those flexible tubing to hard line sounds like a pain.
Tell that to the 6.0 powerstroke.
I've never met a mechanic that isn't completely fking useless.
@@veegee24Says more about you than mechanics 😂
100% agreed. Besides upgrading cooling system, I'd dare suggest an oil cooling circuit + filter + more efficient oil pump. Last but not the least, I'd also suggest trying an Oxy- Hidrogen generator, (H2.O2 gas mix obtained from hydrolysis + 'normal' 90 to 100 octane fuel. It should burn quicker / cleaner & more efficient). Quite a few ppl actually using Oxy.Hydrogen / Hydrolysis generators in gasoline / Turbo Diesel & LPG car engines with good to excellent results, cleaner engines, less oil contaminaton, lower emissions, lower working temps + slight (7% - 14% increase) power increment. Nevertheless, it's an utterly amazing project and work.
Many thanks congrats & Blessings!!.. 😌🙏🙏🙏🙏
(ICE powerplants should keep going on strong).
This is the kind of escalation I want to see
Imagine putting this on a small scooter, like an old honda elite 50cc and putting a v12 badge on it. Lol
@@thebarkingmouse This small motor cant handle torque. The crank is too tiny.
@@pascha4527super short ratio gearbox go brrr😂
I'm waiting for the finished go-kart/motorcycle/car
Follow Jesus and you will not be ashamed.
Change how your coolant reservoir is connected. It should be used as an expansion tank by being connected with a tee. Having the tank be inline is only causing air to be mixed with the coolant. You can see the air get pulled in when the engine is revved emptying the tank
The individual coil plugs are a lovely touch, be nice if it had individual injectors too, a full EFI setup on this would be amazing.
Run it with an aftermarket ECU and a heavier flywheel, easily get that idle RPM significantly lower and more top end power :)
That would be some insane engineering
Boo to heavy flywheel
@@zqzj yeah agree but for something this small, it would probably be necessary
you don't need heavier flywheel if you have fast enough ECU and fast enough throttle body
@@suryabejibun I think you've covered it - I don't think any aftermarket ECU is fast enough to catch a stall on an engine that small with such a (relatively) light flywheel :)
(Sorry, additional context here, I do a *lot* of work with Link G4+ / G4X ECUs and even I've noticed you've gotta be more.. proactive about catching stalls the smaller the engine is, you can definitely "feel" a difference between a 2000cc I4 and a 6200cc V8 and the latter is easier to compensate for, so it stands to reason that a _50cc_ motor is gonna be quite challenging! 😁😁)
The exhaust was the key for the sound!! Great video Q.
your recording quality and your work is amazing bro please keep this up love this
Agree 100%!
I would love to see you make a dyno for these engines. I know you made a flywheel dyno before, but have you thought of a water pump dyno?
These little engines self destruct under high workloads. The crank'll snap
first then rods will break if you make that stronger. See on youtube, people
have tried model engines to power bicycles, always ends the same.
A small scale dynamometer is the solution .
@@Jeff44 I'd love a good 50-80cc v8 with beefier parts to handle the load of me on my bicycle.
Till then I'm stuck with a water pump engine.
Fantastic video. The way this thing revs is spectacular. The most impressive is how smooth it revs. Really shows how balanced a V12 really is. Can’t wait to see what you do with it next
Try pressurizing the coolant system to keep boiling controlled. Build a 15 PSI relief valve that leads from the pressurized portion to the reservoir.
You'll pop the rad if you put it under this much pressure. That's a PC water cooling rad, it can handle maybe a 10th of that.
3 things I noticed. 1 you need a bigger coolant reservoir and a baffle to stop it from shooting upwards. 2 the fan size isn't the problem you need a fan that can do pressure not necessarily flow. 3 the exhaust manifolds reduce down way too much, looks like it goes down at the outlet to practically a one cylinder size so it has too much back pressure. Anyways hope it helps, great video, thanks for the hard work!
Really cool. Sounds great with the headers.
As mentioned by others, bigger coolant reservoir is absolutely needed. There's barely any surge capacity in it for when the revs climb and the exiting coolant sloshes around creating aeration in the reservoir directly over the inlet, getting sucked into the water pump, and then frothed into a milkshake, which then becomes a feedback loop.
Also, rad inlet & outlet ports should be on top, will make bleeding and keeping air out of the end tanks easier (thereby increasing cooling capacity by keeping as much coolant in the rad), as well as minimizing chances for air pockets to grow in the end tanks that sit there waiting to get purged when coolant flow increases under high revs (this is probably one of the contributing factors to why the tiny reservoir you have now keeps overflowing; air is being ingested and stored in the system, displacing coolant.
So... when is the electronic fuel injection system being installed with ITBs and velocity stacks? You know that's the next logical step now that electronic ignition is done ;)
Great videos, love watching!
Just ran into this video from a car magazine (Motor 1) and I don't have the words to express the amount of talent this guy has..... WOW!
Do you think the air in the cooling system is negatively affecting the engine temp?
Seems like it needs a larger coolant reservoir with additional coolant to help minimize that, although probably also getting cavitation at high RPM...
Noticed the foaming. Wonder if it starts from the overflow tank being mounted on the engine so that the vibration is causing the foam.
I would suggest doing a vacuum fill of the coolant system to try and minimise the trapped air. I also think that the return path should be sealed with a separate expansion vessel mounted above the highest fluid level in the radiator.
@@johnkelley7978 I don't think that any pump cavitation would be visible in the pipes.
I'm sure there are lots of comments on how to make more power, but just by looking at how this thing idles, it might be worth making the flywheel heavier so that you can bring down the idle speed without the engine cutting out.
Would that not place more stress on the crankshaft?
@@mozer30 I'm sure it would add stress, but the amount of radial load is insignificant on a steel crank of any size, especially when you consider scaling up and seeing how every car has a fairly heavy flywheel from the factory. If this crank does break from something as little as a few extra ounces, that might give some insight as to the rest of some future upgrades and how they could affect the engine.
I personally prefer less rotational inertia and a higher idle in performance applications
@@mozer30a heavier flywheel would actually be easier on the crank when under load, like driving instead of running on a bench
Excellent content. As many others have mentioned a closed system and elevating what should be an overflow can might help out. Great work as always. BTW the throttle response is amazing and it sounds like a ripper.
Awesome sounding engine and that throttle response is something else!
Sounds amazing. Definitely need to address the coolant reservoir. A swirl tank to help separate the water and air would be good, as well as a taller reservoir. If you could let the coolant build some positive pressure it would help minimize bubbles. Also you can try a product like Redline Water Wetter which may also help. Should only need that and distilled water.
brother now u must slap a turbo on there!
V12 is pretty nice but i'm still waiting for Johny to get his hands on inline 6 especially if it would be dohc. Mini RC Supra would be so cool.
100%. I was just gonna comment about an I6
The sound difference once you put the headers on is amazing
Great work as always. To further improve cooling you could pressurise the circuit to avoid steam in the system with a spring valve on the cap. A bigger expansion vase would help too.
Man, it runs so much better with the coil on plug design! I think you may need to set up a pressurized cooling system to really get the most out of it. Too much cavitation otherwise causing the pump not to flow as well. Can't wait to see this in a project car. I wonder if Denny from 'Dennis Dempsey's Out of Control' channel got in on this upgrade? I'll have to check him out and see.... Nice work on the fan stuff!😉 *EDIT:* I saw where Chuan Qi is working on a 4? speed trans and clutch setup for these. He's still working out the bugs, but it looks awesome!😄👍👍
I would love to see one of these hooked up to a dummy load, even a BLDC drone motor with the three leads shorted together would probably work to give it a decent load.
In addition, a contra-rotating delta fan would be great for this, 80mm but a lot thicker than a normal case fan, I recommend fan grilles too for your safety ;) I use Delta GFC0812DS's
Great documentation of these engines as well as your craftsmanship.
It will stall at once with a drone motor connected to it. Those engines have no power at all. Barely enough to turn themselves over.
The sound with the manifolds on is so good.
That exhaust manifold is a work of art! It really is a thing of beauty. Awesome work and awesome video 👍
Would love to see this in a Indy type scale car or a Boat of some type. This is amazing content, keep it up !!!
I would like to see a v12 moped, but that would probably require an ungodly amount of gear reduction to produce useful torque from it. Not sure about the power and torque figures from this engine but i would like to see how it compares to an average 4 stroke 50cc engine
Putting this on a scooter or mini bike would be incredible
Only with a reduction between it because well it would be sad too destroy the crank and other internals
@@TheLtVoss XD
@@TheLtVoss I wonder if a cvt system like what comes on a scooter would keep it from tearing itself apart
@@TheMinydude mhm have too look if 2strokestuffing did use a cvt but the chance is high since he uses them quite often (well with 50ccm the advantages ar too obvious)
he actually tryed and riped a crankshaft In half
Edit : found the video th-cam.com/video/EgKsu2zs2EM/w-d-xo.htmlsi=-FtJNFM6jluPOjtS
Ehm he did use a chain link reduction too a gearbox so the cvt question still sands
@@TheLtVoss incredible thank you for the reply 🙏
Like others have said, the bubbles in the coolant is the main overheating problem. The water pump is losing a lot of efficiency and the heat transfer is severely reduced. A pressurized system would probably improve things too but I would start with the bubbles.
Imagine mounting sterling engines around the engine to catch the heat and transform it into extra power
i would love to see another project get a supercharger in the future :)
you think that rpm would drive enough boost through a centrifugal system to be more noticeable than when you last tried one?
Might have a chance at this scale, because turbo machinery tends to worse the smaller it gets. So the larger supercharger that this thing would need, might produce some results. There's people that got a couple of PSi out of 3d printed superchargers/centrifucal superchargers.
A roots charger.. As more it revs as more it pumps
Just my opinion but a set of equal length headers would make this thing scream like a formula 1 car.
Your work is absolutely incredible, I was speechless and the sound of the engine is wonderful
wish I had the knowledge and tools necessary to create something as masterful as this. This is awesome 👍🏿
Top demais 👍🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
sounds like an Aventador
Amazing attention to detail!!! Thanks for sharing!!!
The sound after the headers is amazing! 😂 love ittt
Holy crap that thing is responsive.
How much power does it make? (if at all possible to measure)
at least 4hp, 50cc can move around a scooter
@@skidhvh 50cc doesn't say much, some can make closer to 50hp NA, some make less than 1hp.
@@linusgk5042 50cc? you're trippin. even if you juice it to the maximum its not gonna make more than 15-20hp, even at 15k rpm
Bruh 1hp per cc is impossible
@@skidhvh theoretical maximum is over 500hp. Many 50cc over 20hp have been made.
Why don't you make a big engine
So glad ive found your channel, used to love the builds you would post on retrorides so very long ago, so pleased to see you are still as creative, your attention to detail is stunning !!
I like the coil plug setup, that’s some clean work.
Its not a fan problem, you don't have a thermostat in the block. the thermostat restricts the flow allowing more time for the coolant in the rad to cool off. what's happening is the coolant is cycling so fast that it doesn't have a chance to dissipate the heat in the radiator so it starts to boil off. Maybe there's a way to do a remote thermostat but that's what's needed if you are intending to do any extended or high rev use.
Always a treat getting the notification you uploaded. Was worried there for a while!
50cc v12 is insane, can't wait to watch the next engine progress.
I love your enginuity, the designs and ideas you implement are awsome, keep it going :)
Absolutely amazing! I agree with what some others have said. I don't know much about cooling combustion engines. But I do know for a water cooled computer, air in the loop is a big no, no. A bigger reservoir allowing constant flow of coolant and no air may be beneficial. Awesome video!
The throttle response of this little screamer is insane!
Another thing not many people talked about, when designing radiator ducts it's very important to consider flow separation, you want the walls curved and smooth. When 3d printing then, make sure to make a thicker wall and fine sand it.
As someone who does FDM printing, metal 3d printing is so dang amazing.
That’s really cool as a car guy dealing with this stuff daily
That sound is amazing!!!
the sound is crazy
What fantastic little engine. I would love to see this on a mini dyno tuning for perfection
Definitely sounds like it likes the exhaust best
the throttle response and sound on that thing is nuts....reminds me of 13 years ago when i was discovering the "Modellmotor" miniature 87cc v12 by Ralf Drendel.....only you can buy this one
Always something good to see here!!
Was cool seeing with the thermal camera the difference between the hot and cool coolant tube
Here in Italy the highway code provides that mopeds are two-wheeled vehicles with an engine of less than 48 cc such that there is no requirement for a license to be able to drive them, apart from the age of over 14 (the car license and motorcycles can only be obtained after the age of 18)
We are therefore talking about motor vehicles with engines comparable in displacement to your V12 (if I understood correctly, a 50 cc)
from my memories, however, the carburettor had a larger air intake hole than that of the V12, in fact usually the carburettor was a "Dell'Orto SHA 14/12" with a 14mm intake duct and 12mm diffuser. it is true that we are comparing a four-stroke V12 with a two-stroke (48cc) but the carburettor of the V12 seems small to me to allow the full power of the V12 to be developed.
Another thing I noticed in your video is the presence of bubbles and cavitations in the cooling pipes when you are at high rpm, this brings air into the circuit and therefore could reduce its efficiency, if by chance you have it around the house I would change it also the radiator.
Finally, returning to the first sentence of this post, I would like to see the V12 applied to a moped, I think it would provide some nice surprises
Been waiting for something like this
That was awesome, thank you for sharing!
Thats best one I've seen so far
I CAN NOT WAIT to see what you put this thing in!!!
Yes.. this is awesome. I need to install this on a bicycle.
Individual coil packs? That's pretty sweet!
I think this may be the best running engine you have shown off
can't wait to see it back in the car
you are a very talented machinist
How nice that you're using a pc radiator , early watercooling days we pc builders would use car heat exchangers for pc radiators. The circle is complete :D
Now that's a proper scream!!
Very cool engine.Would love to see it installed in something and doing actual work.
Those exhaust headers gave it a mean grumble growl. Fantastic what we can do with 3d printing now.
You need to seal the cooling system so it can build pressure when it heats up. The boiling point of water raises when under pressure
In my past race car experience I have found that placing a flow restrictor in the coolant system slows down the speed of the coolant circulation to allow the coolant to remain in the radiator longer therefore cooling better.
This needs to be put into a scale panzer or similar. Epic👌
Watching this series has been an amazing ride. Wow. As I said before I'd like to see what this dyno's at
Just incredible... Congratulations 👍
Put clamps on your hoses and add more coolant so it builds pressure. You can see steam in the lines when it gets hot. Pressure will cause water to boil at higher temps
Beast of an engine!
Great video brother!! you covered all the features and upgrades👍👍👍👍
Awesome craftsmanship looks amazing well done 👍🏻 👌🏻
Nice video I always enjoy watching. Only one thing that I can add as to why the engine is getting hot. Try slowing the water flow down going through the radiator. When I was racing heat was always a big problem, so we kept the fluid in the radiator longer which allowed it to cool and lower the temperature of the engine. I also noticed several comments about how much air was flowing through the hoses, that is a problem itself.
Very cool it’s only a matter of time before it’s running a Fueltech and has a blower on top.
Sounds like music. Its perfect!
I love what you do man, it's amazing, keep it up, can't wait to see mor RC builds Videos
Awesome ! , it would be really cool to see a cold start in winter, like some are doing with their car! Congratulations for all of your videos, I've been looking a them since the beginning ! 😁🇨🇦
That rpm is impressive.
Needed to add more coolant as it idled to fill in the air bubbles. Water cooling radiators arent going to perform all too well if there's too much air entrained into the coolant. Also, bigger reservoir; I would recommend you make one out of metal pipe as a water-cooling reservoir proper (typically made of acetylene or other form of hard plastic) would not last at those temperatures.
Amazing video! What a beast. Ps ive been watching ur content for a while now and absolutely love it :)
Hopefully you have plans to build a car around that beastly engine, after you work out the cooling system. Very cool
11:48 You can see that the coolant coming from the radiator is significantly cooler! Good job!!
Man it sounds good
You may need to create a high pressure reservoir. Coolant can more easily boil over when it’s not held under appropriate pressure
Cool looking exhaust headers
I’d like to see this mounted to a custom Road bike with a 6 speed gearbox and decent suspension to accommodate the bumpy roads here in the U.S. I think that would be absolutely inspiring. Amazing work by the way.
This is So cute! I really admire your skill as an engineer. WOW!
You need a pressureized cooling system. Pressure keeps the coolant from boiling which is what its doing out the reservoir.
Definitely needs a bigger reservoir to help get rid of the air in the system. Having more coolant overall adds thermal mass too, which will take longer to heat up.