Monotropism - Does It Really Describe Autistic Thinking?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 1 ธ.ค. 2022
- How do you pay attention?
What do you pay attention to?
Can you direct your attention?
Do you sometimes feel like a slave to your attention orientation?
Monotropism is a theory around attention that many autistic people including myself resonate with. It describes both out strengths and our weaknesses.
Before I read the original paper proposing this theory I felt it made sense of practically everything in terms of the way my attention plays out. However, after reading the full paper and carrying out further research I realised it didn't even touch the sides.
This is a video about that.
I also don't agree to the forest analogy, when people say we are focusing too much on the details, for me it's an elephant in the room and everyone else choose to ignore it.
Yes! I've never understood how so many people live their whole lives ignoring elephants 🐘 😊
It's in your eyeballs the actual spectrum and I just leave it on like a literal electrical outlet but a spectrum circuit
@@adaptercrash I don't understand what you are saying.
Allistics don't choose to ignore things. Those things just do not register for them. In a sense they have very focused perceptions. They are able to block anything that doesn't fit the matter at hand as a default (though it can be intentionsl). Whereas for us usually everything is popping on a sensory/perceptual level.
To me, it reminds me of the raccoons in my neighborhood. Often I'll be startled to see them perched somewhere when they have smelled and seen me from a mile off and seem quite surprised to have startled me because from their perspective their presence was obvious.
I’ve only known I’m autistic for about a year. I’m 40 now, for context. Monotropism is still a relatively new concept to me. But holy cannoli, your perspective here is effectively an exploded-view diagram of my far more rudimentary understanding of autism as a nontypical divergence in sensory signal processing. But it’s not just autism; it’s *the* autism component of an autistic person’s identity.
Thank you for this. It’s truly brilliant.
With regard to the concept of focus on details vs. focus on the big picture, I think it's more helpful to conceptualize it in terms of automaticity-whether someone is subconsciously jumping to conclusions vs. reaching conclusions through deliberate and conscious processing of the available information. Or we could think of this in terms of Daniel Kahneman's "system 1" (automatic, fast, error-prone) vs. "system 2" (deliberate, slower, more accurate).
The idea of not seeing the forest for the trees implies (though this half isn't usually explicitly stated) that the alternative is seeing the forest and not the trees. I think that is nonsense. The big picture is the sum of the details. Someone who isn't seeing the details isn't seeing the big picture, either. What they might be doing, though, is reaching conclusions without consciously noticing any of the details. I think autism means less automaticity, relying on deliberate & conscious processing in contexts where neurotypicals are running on autopilot. That, then, leads to monotropism-this deliberate & conscious processing can't be diffused across many things.
Yes! Good point, I agree with that. Makes sense
@@suddenlyautistic indeed, and that also touches on what you'd mentioned, briefly, about personality also being a metric. Look at the jungian personality type theory, specifically in the context of cognitive functions. More appropriately, we have Sensing vs Intuition, and each one of those cognitive functions can be used in an introverted or extroverted focus, at any given time.
To say that monotropism is about missing the forest for the trees insists that autistic people cannot see the bigger picture, which is rubbish. I almost max-out the AQ scoring and the monotropism scoring on my test results for both, yet I consistently measure as an ENTJ personality type, in the Jungian system, which is a predominantly intuitive personality type know for seeing the big picture at the expense of details. I can confirm this to be accurate, too.
I would say, at least from my experience, that monotropism isn't about details or gestalts, rather it is specifically about automatic attentional focus, as stated in this other individual's comment. This definitely aligns with my experiences, quite accurately. Additionally, it's not the details that I'm focused on, per say, it's that whatever I do focus on becomes a thing in its own world, an island alone, at the exclusion and separation from things that aren't directly relevant to it. Often times, I have come to notice, it stems from a need for accuracy or correctness; whether that accuracy or correctness is based on objective facts, subjective experiences, personal preference, etc doesn't seem to matter so much as simply that it needs to be accurate to whatever measure it is being judged by. Without a care for accuracy in the subject, I don't seem to have any attentional aberration or hyperfocus, at least not to a significant degree... so, I definitely agree that 'interest' comes into play, but not interest in the vulgar connotation, rather interest in the proper denotation and psychology context which is concerned not with preference but with whether the mind finds something relevant to something already considered to be of import.
Maybe it's different for others, though. I don't know. I'm just a person
@@E.Pierro.ArtistI very much agree. There are a lot of false stereotypes around being autistic obviously. And one of them seems to be something like S over N. Like if the stereotypical Autist is a white ISTJ boy.
On the other hand, several newer autistic content creators are INFJ and there seems to be a theory in the community that being autistic somehow relates to being INFJ. Which I think is also wrong.
(Just realising that ISTJ is ENTJ's Supervisor and INFJ is ENTJ's Supervisee. Interesting. You know socionics? But that's a tangent.)
INFP here btw.
I also disagree with Amanda's (suddenlyautistic's) theory of "pattern over people". That seems such an INTJ thing to say.
(This is the first video I saw from Amanda, but my INTJ radar is quite strong. The socionic "Benefit"...) Would you agree on that typing? It seems like a "Yay Ni! Fe boo!" thing. As an INFP, I would never state patterns and people as opposites. Isn't jungian function typing all about patterns in people?
Would you say you are patterns over people?
@@E.Pierro.ArtistOne hypothesis I've been carrying around with me is: Maybe being autistic somehow relates to being more extreme and more exclusive about the use of your individual function set.
I don't have very much evidence yet.
I was struggling to find something worth watching or reading and was close to turning off my phone when I came across your video. You caught my attention and I watched and enjoyed the entire video. Thank you!
Well that is very lovely of you to say and I'm glad you felt it was time well spent. Us autistic folks certainly are complicated. I am still trying to figure out how to avoid blowing myself up!
Temple Grandin in her book The Autistic Brain has written about localised bottom up processing combined with some top down more global processing in the autistic brain in some situations- I’d need to go back and reread her work in more depth to refresh my memory for it but she gives all the supporting research studies for her ideas which link biology, cognition and outwardly observed behaviour.
Choosing zoning in and out is not a will thing with Autism. Even experience and deeper understanding what triggers do not help mutch, becaulse it (the brain) often turn on/off different from one day to another. I think that is the hell of it, but at least understanding make one able to understand or telling others whats happening.
There seems to be joy or a deep sense of satisfaction (dare I say obsession) associated with completion. Could certain areas (relationships) not be completed and therefore don’t have the promise or lure of completion and therefore the neurodiverse person isn’t drawn there?
Thank you so much! Yes! My written report said that I seemed incapable and uninterested in introspection. Yet, on the AQ when I was asked to describe myself in one word I chose introspective. I also was told I am alexithymic. This makes sense of all that. I have a rich inner experience, but don’t express it to others. The psychologist concludes that I am emotionally restricted and socially isolating. Thank you again. Very helpful.
Oooohhhh those psychologists can make it all sound very harsh! I mean there are many logical reasons to restrict one's emotions in public. We are so vulnerable and easily overwhelmed or taken advantage of in the wrong situation. Best of luck with your journey
Thank you for this presentation and as someone born in the mis 1940's it is refreshing to hear someone close to my age describing autism from someone with a more dynamic viewpoint.
I also pinpoint my focus and I use this as an ability and not a detraction. I look forward to view more than this first TH-cam view of your work. 👍
There is so much overlap with this when it comes to autism and ADHD
I personally see them as one in the same.
Your observation of our Autistic perception is very interesting. I've done extensive research on this, as well as I'm Autistic. We have a bottom-up processing type, and our sensory algorythm is different than Neurotypicals. Their's is top-down. And, so, I've been in Court cases where some opposing lawyer will hurl an accusation at me in papers they file with the Judge, accusing that I have a "misperception" "of reality." Well, at that point, I'm ready to make the counter-accusation that the Neurotypical lawyer is engaging in prejudical autism discrimination and lacks an autism education. Because, the thing is, Autistic people - and it IS a whole body experience -- perceive reality differently ("atypically") than Neurotypicals do. You are very right about that. It's evolutionary. And there is no "Ours is better than theirs" or "Theirs is better than ours." The perceptions are whole body perceptions and they are different, and they are based on different evolutionary, neurological wiring, perception differences. It isn't that the Autistic person is "misperceiving" "reality," or that the Neurotypical person is "misperceiving" "reality," It's that the two different neuro-types perceive differently. So, that one neurotype may perceive part of the reality, while the other neuro-type may perceive a different part of the reality, and they are both right and both wrong at the same time. I would liken it to a horse show judge who is watching a rider jump a course of jumps on a horse, and he looks down to mark his card, and when he's looking down at his card and not at the rider and horse, the horse almost bucks the rider off; but by the time he looks back up, the rider and horse have re-composed themselves and are going along as if the buck never happened. The Neurotypical person is like the Judge marking his card, whereas the Autistic person is like being embodied as the rider who is on the horse. The Neurotypical gives the rider and horse a 1st place blue ribbon, when there are at least 8 other rider and horse combinations that completed the course without a major mark-down error like the buck - the Neurotypical will say he is "perceiving reality right," even though he did not "perceive" the buck, he missed it ! The Autistic person, although taking the blue ribbon, knows they should have been marked down for the buck and not been in the ribbons at all for that error. If the Autistic person says to the Neurotypical, "My perception is that my horse bucked, so I don't desrve the 1st place blue ribbon," the Neurotypical (as ALWAYS happens in the courts with judges and lawyers who are ALL Neurotypical), will tell the Autistic person, "you are mis-perceiving" "reality." My point is clear. This is why autism education must be made mandatory for all lawyers and judges in every court, as well as many other areas, more generally. The Autistic versus Neurotypical perceptions can be outcome determinative in so many critical areas - credibility, demeanor, witnesses, so-called "eye-witness" testimony, reputation and character evidence, prior so-called "bad acts," equities, who is right and who is wrong, who should win and who should lose, who deserves a remedy -- ALL of it. I can't see any possible way any of these courts can be giving a fundamentally fair and impartial "day in court" to any Autistic person UNTIL they can prove they have by a certificate undergone an autism education and modify some of these rules and practices. It's very wrong to simply accuse and mis-label the Autistic perceptual difference as "misperceiving" "reality," "wrong," and to be invalidated, when this is a true DIFFERENCE. And, I've gotten a comment to one of my videos that "Well, isn't Autism a difference and not a disability ?" It surely IS a social disability when the entire system of who to believe is predicated on the perceptual Neurotypical neuro-type, the entire system has a Neurotypical design (flaw), and, of all things, you have some Judges writing in their opinions that you "suffers from Autism." We don't suffer from being Autistic. We suffer from our valid and legitimate differences being misunderstood, mislabeled, and villified, Anyway, TY, for this observation of Autistic differences in perception. I don't know how anyone who has read or been taught about Temple Grandin's "Thinking in Pictures" could have missed it ! It's really amazing, because if you read some of these court guidelines, if they even have any that mention Autism, they don't even mention monotropism (or "Thinking in Pictures").
Sounds like you've been through the wringer (mangle of life). I'm glad you found a thread of hope in my analysis.
I greatly appreciate you making this video. As an autistic person myself it's amazing to hear you delve so deeply into this aspect of autism and I look forward to watching your other videos! I definitely really resonate with the difficulty and almost distress around changing where my attention is.
I am watching and I am so proud to see someone like me who has used their precious energy to address this topic. Well done! You’re for sure on target!!!! Keep it up.
Thank you so much for your words of encouragement. I'm taking a break at the moment but will be back soon
Im still at the beginning of the video but here's what i think. I don't think monotropism is the entirety of autism, but a feature of it.
Autism is 6 parts i think: intense world model, monotropism, autistic inertia, kinesthetic thinking, a thing about how we interact with rules and others and then a 6th thing being using patterns and gathering information a different way than neurotypicals, which i can't entirely describe or put into words but part of it is making less assertions from limited information.
A lot of things we just don't have words for.
So in my opinion, monotropism isn't a complete theory of autism but it explains parts of it i think
Adopting monotropism, as a diagnostic feature, is typical objective conceptualization. You don't try to perfectly define or describe some concept, but just attach a bag of attributes to it. I don't think science is buying in to any "essentialism" - just feature finding. Good enough for a working hypothesis.
@@ralphhancock7449 yeah
Hello , could you explain about the rules part and the patterns? Thanks
I think monotropism is secondary to perceptual filtering that is automatic. Autistics have to filter more stuff out or else get overwhelmed by it cognitively.
@@giovannamoro8564 autistic people have a lot of repetitive habits and actions, like certainty and tend to have better than average pattern recognition, and tend to be good at using, organizing and thinking in structured forms of information with clear rules, and tend to preffer information that can act almost like a mechanism.
...with your 5 marbles...
i loved your presentation. when i discover something, it is never a spotlight search. it is a cumulative and exhaustive search, open ended. and i love trains. i do.
Yeah, I was diagnosed at 35. The worst part was spending the next 6-12 months recollecting and reprocessing my entire life through a new lens to actually make sense of it all.
Also, there is a monotropism questionnaire you can take, online. Personally, I score almost the maximum on that test. When I get stuck in a focus loop, I can get stuck for hours, wasting most of an entire day... and it's definitely *not* a choice, at least not for me. Whether I engage something is a choice, but whether I get stuck in a hyperfocus loop or hyperfocus at all is 100% involuntary. Suffice to say, I don't do well with neurotypicals.
I am still learning (not even two weeks since I accepted the label and made autism a special interest... But I do have four decades of trying to figure out my weird brain... So here is what I think I understand:
For mostly genetic and some epigenetic reasons, some areas of autistic brains grow more quickly than usual. This causes or is caused by more dense local connectivity and sometimes less higher-level connectivity. The result is increased sensory processing (stimming, sensory sensitivity, eye contact) and detailed low level processing (concrete thinking), which may load higher level processes and challenge some higher-level functions and necessitate a more bottom-up style. This means we have a different processing architecture, supporting fewer, more resource intensive processes. That yeilds monotropic attention and causes "inertia" because our investment in each process is much higher. (Nobody likes having their cognitive sand castles kicked over, much less if you put a lot into it.) This makes us pervasively different in how we most natually move, think and live. Because our processing is so different, our mirror system models a different "theory of mind" which does not match NT people (and vice versa) yeilding a mutual breakdowm in cognitive empathy (double empathy problem). Cognitive empathy is *the* major channel for social/relational information. For level 1 "ASD" without intellectual inpairment, most of our common problems actually flow from this mismatch with our social environment. This includes the *appearance* if ADHD, which I believe is way overdiagnosed in autistics. (ADHD seems like it is a bag of symptoms that is probaly catching a whole pack of itioligies anyhow.) I worry about this last thing because it could prevent us from learning to use our own brains the way they are, which is not easy for us because of the social environment difference, but if possible, i think, more healthy.
I love this theory, thanks for sharing!
Congrats btw to starting to identify as autistic!
I'm interested in your side note on ADHD. I'm not sure about what to make of that label. So, did you mean etiology? And what do you mean by saying ADHD was catching etiologies?
@@nephistar yes, pardon my spelling. Thank you. I did end up getting "diagnosed." What I mean is that ADHD is a descriptive category of executive dysfunction. The causes of presentations that fit into the ADHD construct could be very different. Autism and ADHD are structurally inverse in this way: autism is one cause with a great variety of expressions, ADHD is one category of expressions, which could have a great variety of causes..I am concerned that ADHD labels are used to pathologize and medications are used to mask healthy autistic ways of being, This denies autistic people the opportunity to develop the natural ways of being that actually fit their autistic brains and bodies. (And it is also exhausting, demoralizing, invalidating and ineffective to mask in general, of course.)
32:14 this for me is the most profound - in a philosophic sense - part of this video .Our entire social order is set up for a kind of average majority and these people (if I can presume to speak for "them") thinks that relating and relationship is the only thing that matters in life, or at least is at the top of a hierarchy of values and thus can't think that there are those of us who are neither anti-social nor pro-social. Relationships might be one thing among other things for us. Important without being most important.
This piece of work presented here in this video? A lot to digest. Worthy of the effort to carefully parcel out or parse this content. What a treat to come across such treasure. Mining it may require a season or more. Many thanks.
Thank you. I'm happy to help unpack it piece by piece if you have any questions. It's all reflections of my personal journey so I've nothing to gage it against in terms of whether it's too much or not enough. It just is. Thanks again for taking the time to engage
@@suddenlyautistic I'm relistening to the video now with a 10 pound weighted blanket over my head. At the age of nearly 72, I've been informed by my provider of behavioral health care they
do not do diagnostics on folks my age. I've had what could be considered a ridiculous amount of therapy over more than thirty years not resulting in career or relationship satisfaction. However, life goes on and learning does keep the door of hope unlocked if not wide open. The generosity of your offer comes as a surprise. Thank you. I've been practicing DBT skills for more than 5 years and what a help that is for observing nonjudgmentally my own experience of listening. I look forward to formulating questions to ask. For now, I'm building capacity to tolerate the physical sensations involved in identifying with specificity the area I need to see with greater clarity. How I heard what you said about the insular cortex and the somatosensory system has me encouraged to continue my efforts to describe my experience of learning and the sickness that has accompanied efforts to become educated. Little by little as an adopted strategy is helping me tolerate understanding mentally and physically. Grateful for this technology making communication possible. Your teaching style helps.
Listening now as if for the first time. Smiling realizing my weighted blanket is on the couch not over my head. Gradually unmasking in my own home I'm finding I'm feeling less distress more often.
What I liked about monotropism as a theory was that when I began looking into if I was autistic it was one of the things that instantly clicked. I just knew it described the way I think, because one of the things I noticed I do a lot is that I'm very linear and process-oriented when engaged in an activity. I dislike chaos and jumping around, where I prefer to do one thing first and then another. I just can't divide attention between doing several different things simultaneously. And I know most people don't work that way, but there's just this immediate irritation if I can't complete a process I'm currently locked into.
I am going to be contacted soon for my first assessment meeting. Super nervous but I think it will finally explain why I've never felt I've been able to live life like other adults for my age.
Good luck with your assessment. I definitely think that way and really can't jump steps or skit around if I wish to stay sane and productive.
Loved this. Thanks for sharing ❤ subscribed
Thank you for sharing this, Monotropism is such an interesting theory and its been insightful to listen to your take on it.
Thank you for great analysis! I resonated with the idea that what I focus on isn’t always my choice. As in, I have no perceptible influence or choice in the matter, and my brain is doing the things without my input. I think inertia is a factor. Something like a wormhole tunnel, where the supergravity won’t let me escape and reorient.
Yes! It is like that!
I definitely cannot make any kind of "voluntary choice" about how my Autistic brain works. I cannot make it what it is not. There is only one way I can process information, and that's how it IS. I cannot change that, and I have not been able to change that in all of the 67 years of my life,
I think in this case it might be beneficial to get perspectives from children who have been diagnosed with autism but have been given no external information or hints about their condition, and who don't even know about the existence of autism, along with non autistic controls, as they might be able to be more objective at describing their internal ways of viewing the world than someone who knows about the existence of autism. I think what might better describe autism is parallel thinking, in which the connection strings between the marbles whether than the distribution of marbles within each beaker. So for instance there might be about about the same number of marbles in each beaker for both autistic and non autistic people, but for a person without autism there are 10 connection strings between each beaker and 1 for each connection between marbles within a beaker, while for myself there might be 10 connection strings for each connection between marbles in each beaker and 1 connection string for the connection between beakers. This would mean that doing multiple tasks that each require 1 beaker would be easy at a time but trying to do a task that requires communication between the 2 beakers would be a challenge as there's only 1 string that the beakers can use to communicate with.
I noticed I seem to have multiple thoughts going on at the same time in parallel but that only 1 can be expressed verbally while the others are indescribable. I also noticed that I seem to have multiple interests at a time but with only 1 being describable through language and the rest being almost indescribable, which from outside would look like a special interest.
Fascinating insights. What you refer to when you spoke about the conception of the mind being separate from the body is known as the Cartesian mind-body split in Western philosophy. The scientific enlightenment recognised that reality was far too complex interrelated and messy to understand holistically so aspects needed to be broken down into clearly dileniated pieces so they could be focused on and understood. That approach is perfect for monotropic thinkers, and a loooot of scientists and philosophers have made huge progress on advancing our understanding of these reductionist aspects of reality. It's a great insight to use the power of monotropic thinking to transcend the reductionist mindset stemming from monotropism and reconnect these differing aspects back into the messy chaotic matrix of reality that defy attempts at a cohesive understanding.
A whole lot of 'stuff' here! Thanks for all you have shared.
I, too, cringe a bit whenever someone ascribes my activities as some "choice". When I notice something, it stands separate from the background. The background is mere muddle. So, when I obsess about a topic, it's not like I chose it by some cost benefit analysis in comparison to other topics. I take notice, and pursue it, depending on how much of an "ah hah" impact such noticing is. I've always assumed that it is just a "guy" thing to get lost in digging deep in analysis or mastery. I often realize that I'm being too lost in my pet project, and at that time I could compare what I'm doing with alternative pursuits, as a mere "choice", but not in the beginning.
As a visual artist, every thing I do depends on choices to retain or remove the fortuitous marks I make, but those "choices" are based on the flimsiest gut level and compositional intuitive impulses - rarely a rational activity, except towards the end, when I have to "package" the composition for the kind of effect I'm valuing at the time. That microcosmic artistic license is a lot like my larger life macrocosmic being. I like it that way. But most others seem to have no clue about what really makes me tic. Luckily, I connect with others in other aspects of my life, and don't need anyone to affirm what I do in everything. Being a natural introvert offers the advantage of insulation from the misunderstandings of others.
That all makes so much sense to me. Thanks for sharing
I think we see the forest and go "cool, a forest. Let find out how it works" and the complexity of a single element (Tree) gets us into that state of interest based arousal. We know there's a forest. We had to blaze a trail though it so we can look at our tree everyday.
That's a good analogy. Thank you
Thank you very much for contributing this composition. A refreshing listen.
Nice ideas and insights. I believe your train of thought is pulling you away from Western (Behavioral) Psychology/Psychiatry and more into the Philosophical/Phenomenological territory. I was always interested in Husserl's critique of Western Psychologism, maybe it helps you explore some more: it would entail that a "monotropic" intentionality encopasses not only mental perceptions but also bodily/sensory experience. In order to rethink and further the dilemma of monotropism stemming from autistic research, on might need to "bracket out" (but not negate) the common idea in the Western sciences, namely that outside objects (such as mind/psyche, and common items for that matter) exist. To autists, it seems that many acts are truly only representations of a highly focused mind-body, they don't require an outside "social" confirmation, because they are evident to the individual consciousness itself, just not to the outside world. That is why the seminal study you mentioned is so important, because it relied on inner experience of the "autistic" mind(s) itself, not on some clinical observation of a "diseased" mind that needs to be fixed/conformed in order to function properly in the society... However, judging by your accent there is in my opinion a huge cultural gap between the "Kantian" Anglo-saxon scientific approach (by analyzing the scientific article one can merely operate on the same subject-object scientific paradigm) and a more Continental approach to psychological questions that one might need to bridge first in order to step on this "monotropic" territory from a truly subjectivist perspective.
Don't take my comments to seriously, it's just an idea/a ramble.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edmund_Husserl#The_elaboration_of_phenomenology
Love this!!!! So much is more clear for me now. Great explanation
You're a God send I tell 'ya! I get my point across pretty well for the most part, but definitely an ambiguous or abstract way. I've learned to embrace it and enjoy it, because it's what makes me who I em, and it's my little flavor in which I bring to the table. But I can't reiterate this enough, you have such a beautiful, and direct way of speaking about this that you might as well live in my brain. I mean it's absolutely uncanny at this point, I'm actually becoming normalized to it now having watched several of your videos. Bravo! I mean seriously this is beyond useful to me, I really can't thank you enough. Suffice to say, you, and I are cut from the exact same cloth, and I'm more than thrilled knowing that you of all people can relate. It provides me with great relief, and immense comfort. You're my Spirit Animal! Jk jk, but you're absolutely a massive insight, inspiration, and a fantastic teacher with a great sense of being, and a genuine soul. Thank you once more for, well... Just being you... -Colby Seth
Well I don't really know what to say about that other than thank you, you are more than welcome and I hope I can continue to share videos that resonate with you and others like us. May we all live long and prosper
I am hoping to get a theory out soon, but in the meantime I suggest looking up Jean Moroney's theory of Values and Anti-values, as it relates heavily to this.
thank you, very interesting. i think i am an undiagnosed autistic and i very much can identify inwhatvyou said and in monotropism (including the difficult controllability of attention and more " how i am built thing.)
Thanks for sharing & I'm glad it resonated
I am not autistic (nor do I think I could be) but I do have adhd, so this idea of monotropism relates to me somewhat. Like you explained, I cannot (fully) control how I divide my attention, but unlike the autistic experience, my division of attention can fluctuate wildly. I can be hyperfocused on one task and ignore hunger cues for hours or I can focus on nothing and everything at the same time. But most of the time, I'd say that I am more monotropic than neurotypical people.
That's interesting. Thanks for sharing. The big picture theory definitely seems to resonate among the neurodiverse community.
Hi, I've had my diagnosis for 10 years now and the popularity of this monotropism theory makes sense to me because I had attention as a special interest when I was doing my sociology degree. Some people gave me the feedback that sociology of attention was a very abstract field and that understanding its practical relevance was hard for them. People go at it from different angles in the sociology of attention, but mostly from a cognitive viewpoint, and the concepts from gestalt psychology of figure and ground is used to demonstrate how perception create objects that does not need to be objects at all. I guess I just had a hard time challenging peoples intuitions about reality when trying to present what I was working on, so, as with many other areas of my life, I felt shame for not being the person that was doing things that other people valued. The word "abstract" does not even make sense to me. I believe that all ideas, words and concepts are abstract if you think about them with enough detail. A forest does not exist.
Am I on the right tracks in thinking you are suggesting we create the concept of an object and then the narrative description of it by our perceptions and then share them. Majority rules? So a forest only exists because enough people perceive a certain landscape as such?
@@suddenlyautistic The majority does rule, certainly, in upholding the use of language, but poets, creatives and intellectuals of a certain philosophical strand have the power to create words. Words also pop up from slang all the time, when the need to distinguish oneself and belong becomes apparent.
My point was that I think peoples awareness of how language naturalize how we perceive the world is weak, and autistics often fall victim to this. We have the need to belong just as much as other people, but our relationship to language is different.
I think McGilchrist’s take makes more sense…? My interpretation is that we as (typical) individuals are supposed to be very “focused” (productive) for work, but “scatterbrained” in everyday life outside of (paid) work.
Autism is misunderstood when viewed through the lens of our current political economy. Autists seem to be able to see details AND sense an holistic “whole”, but not necessarily when “the rest of the world” expects us to. This may include how the workplace may stress everyone out (not just ‘sick’ employees), or how science or medicine is too compartmentalised. Even how modern SoMe disrupts attention creating “FOMO”, and not contributing to a more holistic understanding of social realities or ability to think critically.
What I’m saying is that the view that neurodivergent people don’t “fit in”, is descriptive from a normative individualistic belief, where conformity IS expected. Mental illness is described through very contemporary and reductionist models. Like society itself, we change these frameworks all the time - even interpreting history and anthropology in ever changing ways.
We as human beings however, don’t change through millennia. So, if we’re out of step from a societal view, isn’t also society itself part of the “equation”? 👍
I do agree with that outside-in review and also agree that the dominant societal narratives of 'the West' that I've grown up with don't work that well for many people (and especially autistic folks like myself). But it's also hard to fully lean into that as an explanation because most people I talk to who hold a 'it's society that needs to change' also appear to under appreciate the inner disabling features of autism - our somatosensory differences and difficulties. Most people I talk to are excited by our special talents and insights but not so ready to lean into our need for care and support. I was going to say I feel that a more collectivist society would be better but then I remembered that there are plenty of those that cast out their disabled folks...
@@suddenlyautistic Fully agree…! I came a bit short - I definitely don’t opine that ASD “doesn’t exist”. Like you, I’m also one. 😊
So why do I “politicise” the issue? Imagine a slight analog to those who cannot use stairs for any reason. Only after a certain amount of “activism”, legislation mandates infrastructure with ramps or elevators/lifts. And sure, it’s an ever moving target like most societal issues. Our collective “view” of this slightly improved after several decades of such legal mandates.
But sure, ASD won’t change from legislation either. I’d rather see that a more holistic view on neurodiversity wins through.
It seems that an ever growing ICD/DSM terminology is good for funding the medical industry, but not equally so for the individual caregiver or -taker.
In a thriving society, differences are a driving force of how and what we make out of it. Conformism would be “liberty” for those (few?) who can adapt to it.
I really (!) appreciate your work - and your comment above! 👍
I’ve only recently realised my self diagnosed autism which has been like many many lightbulbs 💡 however it has made so much sense and I think we are amazing! I agree with you it should be about the whole person and only we can really understand and explain the workings of an autistic mind as neurotypical cannot quite truly be there in our mindset! They see it from a typical mindset of course! Thank you and keep up the wonderful work you are doing ❤
Welcome to the autie club and thank you so much for watching and for taking the time to share.
@@suddenlyautistic thank you 😊 I know generally we all work better on our own but just think what we could all achieve for our world putting our minds together! Love your work Amanda thank you 💜
@Purple Star Psychic that's why I share these thoughts. I'm playing together but alone and hoping other people come parallel play also. It's my autistic version of team work. Thanks for the support
@@suddenlyautistic Yes 🙌
This is a fantastic video!
Thank You for a great video.
Yes it does😊
I find your perspective really interesting and have recently been learning bits and pieces about monotropism myself. I feel like there is some gem of truth hidden in this video but i found it quite difficult to follow, since there was a lack of structure. The marble analogy was good but everything after that was difficult to string together.
Also I am unclear as to why you chose that one source as the "official definition" of monotropism? Like you, this has not been my understanding of what monotropism is.
The infographics you showed were interesting but it was hard to relate them precisely to what you were saying. I would have enjoyed your explanation of them.
What you said about the insular cortext and social behavoirs was also really interesting but how does this relate to the rest of the video? How does this relate to monotropism? Or were you trying to make the point that this is something that is not directly linked to monotropism?
Maybe i just need to watch the video a second time!! Sorry for the criticisms, i just genuinely want to understand. I do agree with a lot of what you said, especially that monotropic focus is not a choice based on interest and that the tree analogy is not accurate.
Hi there, I don't feel your points are critical so no drama there. In terms of hard to follow- I tried to dive right into what appears a simple theory and basically tipped it up on its head and shook out all the pieces. That was reflective of where I was at during that time. I may be able to revisit the topic and organise my thoughts better so leave that with me. In normative brains, the insular cortex is wired for perception rather than objectively real 'facts'. As such it plays a big role in translating signals from our senses into emotions which then inform action (behaviour). Monotropic theory focuses on observable behaviour whereas I was questioning 'but why' (classic autistic trait to never stop seeing the why...)
Anyway, I suspect we (autistics) have a difference in the way our insular cortex receives and translates information from our environment and then how we act. I believe that is why we can hyperfocus so strongly and why we get stuck in monotropic thought tracks. Our thoughts are less likely to be intercepted by somatic input. As for why the focus on that paper, it's because that's the original work in this field and the paper that launched monotropic theory as far as I'm aware. So I thought- start at the very beginning like Mary Poppins
Great theory. Great content. Inspiring, eg: consider the probable correlation between stimming and the insular cortex! Thank you :)
I'm hoping that by sharing like this we can collectively come up with a better understanding of the inner workings of the autistic mind.
You also see that with OCD. Where in some forms you have the brain constructing things sort of backwards. So, there'll be the obsession over that one bit of dirty, and ignoring that the rest of the house is clean. Or being obsessed about the possibility of the house burning down due to one stove dial being left on and not at all noticing the various other things you've done that might destroy the house.
Very interesting observation. I have wondered about that before as I'd tend to worry about the subject of my focus in a hyper expansive way. What you are saying about OCD sounds like the hyperfocus is all wrapped up in that singular scenario. I'm now wondering if this is a case of autistics being relational thinkers with themselves largely absent from the dynamic vs OCD being largely objective thinkers with them being centralised in that reality.
thank you!
You said your notes were « Too detailed for a TH-cam show »
Lol, make a twitch stream, 3 hours with like 3 liters of hot tea, and read all of your notes
Then repeat that on many topics
If you want to see how long and in-depth this kind of thing can be, you can TH-cam « Northernlion ranks grocery store food », you hear him talking to « chat », which is his subscribers egging him on as he ranks grocery store food in different tiers.
Or maybe he isn’t talking to chat in that one, I can’t remember!!!
Anyway, your topic was supremely interesting and I’ll check up on your stuff!!! Wooooh 😂🎉
Wow, a 3 hour chat would take me over my weekly word budget by a mile! I need a lie down just thinking about it hahahahaha. Thanks for watching and commenting
You were rambling into the abyss I call my mind. 😅
Lol, well, there you go!
I feel like the difference lies in unspoken assumptions, or even the semantics here. Not that it's invalid or unproductive to talk about it. Extracting bits of order from a sea of chaos is fun, isn't it?
I have trouble with this theory that Monotropism is somehow a sign of autism. As an Engineer I'm able to focus deeply into a problem in order to be able to solve it. The rest of the time I'm not specifically focused on anything to the point of being unable to focus or be aware of the other things going on around me. The focus to me would be like taking a deep dive into something but then the rest of the time floating on the surface as an analogy.
It could be that for arguments sake people with autism are Monotropistic, but that would not have to mean that all people who are able to be Monotropistic are autistic.
I don't think the theory suggests that monotropic thinking and autism are a non- divisible pair, more that it describes quite well how autistic attention feels. As with all things autism and monotropism exist on a spectrum but above that we are describing ways of being and doing "humaning". It's likely everyone can relate sometimes but that's not the same as being unable not to. See that's the rub. As an autistic human I'm often monotropic to my own detriment and that includes becoming focused on things that I find upsetting or traumatic, things that are not really a priority and things that I don't even enjoy doing. So in that sense it's as disabling as it is a superpower.
❤❤❤
I honestly did find your argument difficult to follow but it sounds like what you're saying is this: the monotropic theory as first proposed assumes that monotropic attention is interest-driven (and therefore voluntary and reward motivated), whereas in your experience monotropic attention is a way to meet cognitive task demand (and so not really voluntary or reward-motivated)? In both views it is about attention, but the former makes it sound more frivolous or selfish even, whereas as you describe it, monotropic attention allocation might just be what is required to successfully navigate a task or setting when you process information in different way, whether you're actively 'interested' in the thing or not. Is that right? If so, I can say I agree, the latter description seems more apt to my experience.
Yes that's what I mean 😊
@@suddenlyautistic Thanks! Really interesting thoughts!
In your close you got at the nub of this. Who says the labels are right? I think it was Carl Jung who said any analysis would always be restricted by the experience of the analyst.
If I'm understanding you correctly, then I misunderstood monotropism, because I've been summarizing autism in general and portions of the theory as "a difference in perceiving and interacting with the world"
Hi James, sorry for the delayed response but I had to re-watch my video to remember what I'd said. I agree that autism can be partially be summed up as you've done. However, as we (I'm talking the dominant western trope) so readily separate mind and body, I feel sticking to only that runs the risk of us missing other aspects of our being. We relate to the world somatically as much as mentally. I pose it's not (just) that are brains (may be) wired differently, our whole bodies are. Our experience of the world is highly subjective with many measures sitting outside the norm. That plus our past experiences feeds into our perceptions and our perceptions influence how we feel about our lives. To my way of thinking, monotropism describes the way our attention naturally flows but it still doesn't explain why. It's like trying to evaluate a book by cataloguing the words. You lose the richness and nuance of the narrative and you lose the plot.
@@suddenlyautistic
Thanks for your response. Yeah, I hear where you're coming from with the separation of mind and body. I think acknowledging that there is a set of differences in the brain wiring could help to serve as the bridge for the disconnect, as it's describing a physical difference that affects the mind.
I know that when I say perceive, I'm thinking of the entire sensorium and the way the impulses are interpreted, so as to be clear that it's a processing issue, not a fault with the peripheral neurons. I'm not a neurologist, but I wouldn't be surprised if there's a series of differences in the regions of the brain wherein sensations and emotions are processed, with a downstream impact on the frontal/prefrontal cortexes, affecting executive function, behavior, and social function (iirc), potentially extending to the language centers in some individuals.
But yeah, I hope that makes sense, that the body of the brain affects the philosophical mind, and, in theory, that could explain the interplay of environment, sensorium/perception, and subsequent response/interaction
@JamesDavis-ps6yy it's all very interesting and yes, I feel we are probably on the same page. As an aside, I recently went through some very thorough testing on my hearing and balance system to find out why some 'normal' sounds make me feel dizzy and Sea sick. After ruling out anything in the hearing and balance infrastructure they dockside concluded it was likely an error of interpretation. So I was actually receiving the sounds in a normative way but perceiving them atypically. Not sure what that says about me other than I'm definitely weird lol
@@suddenlyautistic
That's really interesting. It's almost like the nerves from those parts of the inner ear were crossed, and the impulse from the hair cells in the concha (?) ended where the impulse from those in the semicircular canals were supposed to go
How is mono tropic thinking in autism different from ADHD hyper focus?
You'll have to ask someone else that as I'm talking from my experience and I have both.
I'm not sure if you'll ever see this, but if you clip the part of you saying “you've lost your marbles” while holding your jar of marbles it'd make a very funny meme :)
Lol I'll try and give that a go. Either that or I'll try making it from scratch- once I find those marbles again lol
Thank you for such interesting content. I’m sorry, but I’m sitting here puzzling. You sound British and many of the things you say sound British but you pronounce words such as insulate without the extra H sound that I usually hear British and kiwi and Australian people do so I’m confused. I’m sorry I know this has nothing to do with your video content. It’s just got my curiosity up.
I'm English and live in Australia.
@@suddenlyautistic Ah okay... I'm American but lived in NZ for a year.
What tree?
Christmas at this point in the year
Just an idea I've been playing with in my mind and probably full of holes...Perhaps monotropism or even autism is in the vanguard of biological evolution?
Jesus... ALL OF MY MARBLES HAVE JUST BEEN USED UP WITH THAT UNBEARABLE NOISE OFF YOUR MARBLES.
Yes, they did my head in too! That's a great example of how I'm perfectly capable of dysregulating myself hahahahaha