I have to admit, as much as I like Odo, when he mocked Kubus for being nice to Dukat, part of me wished Kubus had responded, "And how many times did you insult Dukat to his face, Constable?"
Odo's personal animosity towards Dukat has been well documented over the whole series and that animosity extended to every single person who ever had to do with Dukat. Like Quark and Kubus.
@@stratfordbaby I have to partially disagree. While most of you said was true, he was still representative of Founders and was just overseeing the whole occupation. He had no choice but support Cardassian occupation, despite his personal animosity towards them, especially towards Gul Dukat. There is difference between collaborators, who served occupators wllingly, like Kubus, and Odo, who was just serving his purpose as Founder. Same thing happened when Dominion retook DS9 and Odo had to cooperate with Dukat again. There is huge difference between Kubus and Odo. I do, however, have to agree with you that Odo did absolutely nothing to at least try to make life of Bajorans easier. But if we were to condemn every single person who had anything to do with any occupation, than every country that was occupied by Nazis would have to lose thousands or even more people. It just doesn't work that way.
@@miroslavtomic7038 I never suggested Odo liked Dukat. I'm pointing out that Odo worked for him as part of Cardassian law enforcement and followed his orders.
Over the course of DS9, Kira evolved from an angry young woman working hard to move on from a tragic situation, to an older woman who was (seemingly) more at peace with the past. I wonder how this scene would've played out later on in the series. Would she still have denied Kubus? Or would she have helped him, showing mercy in the process? That would've been interesting to see.
@Leo Peridot The baptists, evangellies, and mormons, hardly war with one another the way the sects of Islam do. Though I cannot speak on mormons as I don't interact with them very often, I find the idea of mercy among Christian sects is mostly determined by secular political ideology opposed to faith and doctrinal beliefs. I suppose they are not that dissimilar to the Bajorans in that regard. The post-occupation Bajoran religion seems to be both the support for and supported by Bajoran patriotism. And you can clearly see the parallel there. But you must also take into account that Kira was a partisan terrorist. Her views will always be more radical. And though she does eventually begin to temper her zealotry toward Cardassians, a traitor to her own? Never. Her partisan beliefs--not her spiritual ones dictate that a traitor like Kubus can never be redeemed back into the patriotic fold. The irony of her becoming a Dominion collaborator during their occupation of DS9, thereby proving that even "patriots" can sell out, is an interesting lesson an political pragmatism and how quickly ideals and values can go out the window when put in dire constitutions.
@Leo Peridot There hasn't been a crusade in hundreds of years, witch burning, or institutionalized slavery in the United States in over a century. And I can only think of one real instance of the Mormons warring on anyone, and those were settlers in the 1800's in Utah. And digging into the Romish church's blood-letting in Europe and western Asia hundreds of years ago hardly equates to how things work today. For one thing, looking at the papist empire of that time, you will see again, Rome became not just a religious and spiritual power but a political one as well. And political aspirations drove much of what they did. The same could be said for Protestant movements like the Church of England. Again, heavily wed to the state. A truly dangerous combination that sadly is never far in the shadows of any major religion's mind. As for Mr. Brown. I would argue that John Brown was far more aggressive than the Maquis ever were. He made a name for himself butchering pro-slavery people in Kansas with broadswords. And while his ultimately futile attempt to raise up a slave army was the catalyst for many things, one thing you must remember is that in his zeal, the first man shot during his up rising in Harper's Ferry was Heyward Shepperd, a free black, who worked as a baggage handler. The price of terrorism, even if the ideal behind it is potentially noble, is collateral damage.
Kira has one of the best arcs in the franchise. It's a slow, over time believable change. That said the fact Kai Opaka collaborated might have woken her up to her being wrong. She would turn on anyone, even the man she loved for the same crime but she could not hold blame for the Opaka; and if Opaka could do that, then maybe the others had justification too.
That would be interesting to find out. Most likely the number 1 Bajoran on the list was the last head of the Bajoran liason government with numbers 2 and 3 being the two ministers more influential then Kubas.
+kurumais Odo never really worked for the cardassians but rather for his own sense of justice and order (which is very dominant in changelings, especially in the founders). This way he gained the respect of the bajorans, because he actually listened to their side of the story while he searched for the truth without bias. And thats also why Dukat chose him to run security on the station, because with this attitude he would be better at keeping the bajorans in order than any cardassian ever would.
I agree. While Odo's loyalty was to justice, not the Cardassians he still worked for them, not to mention he got at least 3 innocent men killed under his watch.
Gee Odo's very early awareness existence is UNDER Cardassians ruling Bajorans and his 'father' didn't really push the unfairness evil of it all but bully torture Odo to PERFORM as a lab rat! It took years for Odo to SEE the injustice going on but he FIRST only helped BAJORANS solve disputes. Odo under Dukat got put into being a station's arbitrator police. It took months and probably realizing after those 3 were executed his work was just adding to the horror BUT ODO BEING FAIR ARBITRATOR SAVED LIVES like KIRA's lying ass who did kill and murder(in selfdefense). Odo's luck the Bajorans got the Cardassians to gve up and sign a treaty and they KEPT ODO AS A FAIR Police of the station. His mistake only We & Odo(now Sisko & Kira) know Odo made mistakes and careless judgements but he DID NOT SIGN REPEATED PAPERS EXECUTING BAJORANS.
Simpler than that, actually. Odo was seen as a fair dealer. The Cardassians exploited that by giving him a title and job, but would he have done what this Bajoran was accused of, signing capricious death warrants disguised as work orders? I doubt it. And I'm sure Odo cemented his reputation among the Bajorans by standing up to Duikat several times.
How hypocritical of Odo. Even Kira had issues with Quark for operating his independent establishment on the station as a quasi-collaborator. Odo directly worked for the Cardassians.
Kira's problems with Quark went beyond running a business on a Cardassian station during the Occupation. He cheats his customers, is a slimy toad and mistreated his brother Rom. Odo in contrast was a good person even during the Occupation and worked to save innocent lives by properly investigating them if they were accused of a crime and if he found them to be innocent, he told Dukat that they were innocent and were let go. A lot of Bajorans owe their lives to Odo for actually doing his job properly and not having them killed by the Cardassians just for being Bajorans.
Mostly true, except for the three innocent Bajorans who were falsely accused and executed by Odo of trying to kill Gul Dukat. But then again, that was one time.
That's some revisionist Ferengi History there. Did you forget the False Prophets episode of Voyager? Where two ferengi subjugate an entire race? Exploitation is one of the hallmarks of the Ferengi.
Jacob Swing Yeah, Quark is pretty tame and generous compared to most Ferengi. It’s even mentioned that during the Bajoran Occupation, Quark sold items at or below cost to Bajorans which is not only against Ferengi culture, but could have landed him in serious trouble with the Cardassians.
It was a no win situation for Kubus. Likely the only thing that would have helped him would have been if he signed the papers, but then leaked as much information to the resistance if he could. Even then, he'd still likely have been hated by most, and absolutely would have been killed if caught, he just might have been allowed to stay on Bajor at best.
Phelan you mistake my explanation for defense, I was merely pointing out the only way he could make his situation better, not that he should have been in that situation to begin with.
@Phelan You have one major flaw in your argument here: You forget about the level of technology involved in this scenario. This isn't a country trying to control another country, this is a large interplanetary empire that has conquered a single, less advanced planet *solely for the resources that planet holds* and is using their immense technological advantage to maintain that dominion. The Cardassian Union was an advanced military powerhouse that spanned dozens of planets and had access to the vast resources available within, and the Bajorans had just one world with plentiful resources but lower technology. In a stand up fight, the Bajorans would be wiped out without doing more than annoying the Cardassians slightly. The Bajorans were used for miners solely for convenience. They had absolutely no value to the Cardassians otherwise. If literally no Bajorans had collaborated, then the Cardassians would just wipe out the entire population and mine the resources needed themselves. They had no problem working dozens, hundreds, or thousands to death in the mines, not to mention sending out soldiers to purge any town or city they caught collaborating with the resistance, so it's clear that to the average Cardassian, the Bajoran peoples' lives were worth nothing aside from how much ore they could extract per day. It's horrifyingly easy to kill a planet's biosphere in the 24th century: Benjamin Cisco himself demonstrated that with a single photon torpedo with an altered payload, you can render an entire planet incapable of sustaining life for decades, and that's on a single standard *Federation* vessel. Imagine what an armada of Cardassian *warships* could do to a planet's surface and/or population: One planet killer dropped, and then just gun down anyone who tries to flee the planet. The Cardassians could literally have genocided the population from orbit at the press of a button, and either bring in an automated work force, or import a new slave race to mine the now depopulated planet. The Bajorans are lucky the Cardassians didn't decide to drop a torpedo like that when they left the planet. The only reason I can think of for why the Cardassians didn't wipe out the Bajorans is because the Cardassians were concerned that it might spark a war with the Federation, and the Cardassians didn't want to risk that at that point in time. But then again, the Federation didn't exactly do anything while the Bajorans were being worked to death by the hundreds of thousands, so maybe it's more likely that the Cardassians didn't even consider the Bajorans worth the cost of a torpedo. So, the people in the Bajoran government had two options: Either submit and hope that at a later date they might be able to gain freedom from Cardassian oppression, or refuse, and literally *everyone* on the planet dies and the Cardassians still get to extract the resources from their world. I'm not saying I like or promote the choice he made, but I can *understand* why he would have made it.
But having Kubur sign orders like that will divide the Bajorans. The Cardassians get Bajorans to collaborate not because they need permission. They do it because they want the Bajorans to turn on each other, to give the Resistance another target. They want the Resistance to think that there are traitors in their own ranks. They want the Resistance to waste their resources going after poor schmucks who were forced to at gunpoint to help the Cardassians. It's like how the Cardassians put mix civilians with military. They make it so the Resistance can't attack a Cardassian base without causing Bajoran civilian casualties. It demoralizes the Resistance and makes people less willing to join.
One question: When Bajor becomes a Federation member, all Bajorans get Federation citizenship and with that the right to go to any Federation world. Does that mean people like Kubus can get back to Bajor under Federation law if not Bajoran law as a citizen of the Federation?
No, the Federation upholds local laws. This is why it takes years to gain citizenship in the federation. Each law and treaty is examined to ensure that the federations own laws arent in conflict.
+chrismc410 Whether or not Kubus could go back to Bajor doesn't matter as Winn made a deal with him to allow him to live out his last few years on Bajor at a monastery/temple if he provided testimony against her rival Vedek Bareil that he ordered a Bajoran official to tell the Cardassians where a resistance cell was hiding.
Maybe the rest of the episode provides information that would change my POV, but, what could he honestly be expected to do? Kubus: I refuse to sign this order BLAM Random Cardassian: All right, get me a new one, this one was defective.
@Emperor Ssraeshza I know words are hard. There are these things called dictionaries to help you. Here's the Merriam Webster definition of Socialism. Definition of socialism. 1 : any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods. Note: ECONOMIC. You can have a totalitarian government that is capitalist and you can have a democratic government that is socialist. Ask Sweden. *pats you on the head* Go on now! Discover books!
@Emperor Ssraeshza Awww, you think Lenin invented socialism. That's cute.... He invented the Leninism school of Communism honey. The clue is in the name, try reading some actual history books sometime. Or you know, spend 30 seconds on google. Seriously I sometimes wonder, are people like you actual trolls of just victims of a really sub-standard education system that can't be arsed to teach the difference between a Political system and an economic one.
@Emperor Ssraeshza The United Kingdom. National Insurance act of 1911. Compulsory contributions to provide for universal Old age pensions and limited free public health provision all controlled and provided by the state. Literally the dictionary and textbook definition of a socialist provision. Norway implemented a similar system in 1910.
@Emperor Ssraeshza Also a so many people have tried in vain to explain socialism is an economic system, not a political one. Political and Economic systems are linked but not identical. Literally every developed nation includes at least some parts of a socialist economic system within their overall economic system. Something referred to as Social Democratism.
To get the whole story on just what Kubus Oak did during the occupation to be despised so... the Terok Nor trilogy of books are FANTASTIC. Look for Day of the Vipers by James Swallow. A GREAT book and the first of the trilogy.
I can understand the motivations of the collaborator. I just wish they allowed him to give his rationale for his actions. "Yes, I collaborated with the Cardassians. Yes i signed those labor orders. You think if I hadn't that I would be the only one executed? My family would be laying right next to me. If I hadn't signed they would just find someone else who would and the deaths of me and my family would have changed nothing. Its easy to say that you wouldn't, but you don't have children Kira. I don't expect you to understand."
The Occupation cost Kira her father, mother and numerous friends. She lost plenty, but she didn’t let that force her into submission. Yes she didn’t have children, but even if she did, Kira is the kind of person that wouldn’t have let that stop her.
The problem is, Kira knows full well the Cardassians would have gotten what they wanted without him. Every Bajoran would know that. The thing is, to secure his own safety and that of his family, he condemned how many of his own people? Thousands? Condemned them to a hard and miserable life that's only purpose was to feed the Cardassian machine until the Cardassians either killed them, a mining accident took them out, or their bodies failed them from abuse, fatigue, and or disease. He betrayed his entire race to secure a spot eating the crumbs off Dukat's table. I understand his desire to go home after being exiled...but obviously he did not value Bajor nearly as much when it mattered.
"My family would gladly die to defy the occupation, I would have gladly died to defy the occupation. Maybe they might have found a bigger coward and sell out than you, but I doubt it. The fact that you so easily rationalize killing innocent Bajorian lives, the lives of YOUR people, so you and your family could have a comfortable life as Dukats pets means that YOU are the one that doesn't understand. The prophets have turned their back on you, your people turn their back on you... just like you did to them during the occupation. *turns her back on him and walks out*
@@Rodshark75 people lile you make me sick life is not not black white take the france calabrites during ww2 you'r job isnt to care about others then its to survive by any means nessarey you'r family priorty not someoneelses like with france they where stuck in a no win sitution
Its more the fact he did it willingly that is what she is against. He was remembered as never trying to fight back so in her eyes he was weak and just as guilty of killing Bajorans as the Cardassians. Odo may have worked with the Cardassians, but he atleast tried to save those who weren't guilty. To Kira, Kubas was was a traitor who was only sorry for his actions due to his advancing age and health. Not to mention the fact he later works with Vedek Winn, who agreed to allow him to return home in exchange for information against Vedek Bareil with who she was fighting with politically for the position of Kai. That alone proves he was a selfish man.
No. But that doesn't change the fact he signed them. Would some other Gul other than Dukat have given those kinds of orders? Certainly. But that doesn't make Gul Dukat any less guilty of actually doing it.
It isn't about the signatures themselves but about a coward who would sentence thousands to death instead of taking a stand and sacrificing themselves rather than murder others. The fact that he so readily toadied up to and served the Cardassians is his true crime. Not one bad mark, not one reprimand, not one punishment, just Gul Dukats favorite slave, willing to get his hands bloody so he can have a cushy life.
@IdleBigots Yes, it was no win/ but it came down to a choice, he made that choice. To be selfish and sacrifice others and to play along instead of being selfless and sacrifice himself and his family to resist.
@@teleportedbreadfor3days bruh he’s an established officer of Cardassian Courts so he can testify at Cardassian trials, where the verdict and punishment and decided beforehand
One thing I had always wondered about this guy is did he finally get his wish to set foot on Bajora again during the Dominion War when the Cardassians retook control of Terok Nor/Deep Space Nine.
I would assume not-after all, Cardassia didn't rule the station, the Dominion did, and they had a peace treaty with Bajor. The Dominion would have no reason to violate Bajoran law for the sake of a washed up Cardassian collaborator; they'd have nothing to gain from it.
Interesting double standard on this topic . They deny a return from exile for this man but I remember an episode where one of the cell leaders who happened to be in some governmental posting since the war was found to have been a collaborator , but they did nothing to him . Guess it pays to know where the bodies are buried .
Power is a truly odd thing in this situation. You have it because someone else wants it. And yet anything less than indirect sabotage will get you kicked off the planet.
She also was able to forgive Odo pretty quickly, even forming a long term relationship with him. Hell, from the beginning, she knew Odo was a collaborator. She didn't have a problem until she found out he was involved in an execution. I love Kira, but she has had some glaring double standards.
Kira was a rubbish character, very "ive decided so fuck you!" attitude, in some real sad scenes including this one, she is grinning when meant to be sad and angry.
I think we have to distinguish between collaborators and enthusiastic collaborators. Most people when faced with a ruthless, totalitarian regime would acquiesce to its demands.
But in this case, he was Dukats "favorite Bajorian", and I think he actually got promoted and never had a reprimand. That is enthusiastic collaborator if ever I saw one.
You have a valid point. Some people collaborate because they admire the invaders. Others collaborate only in fear of their lives. Not everyone has the constitution to stand up and say “No,” particularly if they have a family’s safety to consider. That said, I wonder which Kubus was. History is written by the victors; which has a way of demonizing not only the enemy, but those seen as those who helped them. Granted, I’m not saying all enemies of victors were innocent angels - hell, Dukat alone proved the exact opposite. But, its also not hard to see some random, fearful man who could be seen as easily swayed by terror joining the enemy as a “Live today to fight tomorrow,” but its also simple to see a weak minded younger man be dazzled by power and a comfortable life in an enemy nest be made to commit acts of tragedy that are easy to turn a blind eye to, because they’re simply not in your field of vision. It begs the question, “willing collaborator, or forced collaborator?” My guess is, the Bajoran Provisional Government said “Likely both of them on this list of traitors… and we could argue the merits and demerits of each for the next twenty years, or we can make a decision, now, that’s fit for them all. Exile them all, now.”
watching this reminds me of the "occupation" season of battlestar galactica. its been awhile so ill refer to wikipedia. Saul was freed from prison in exchange for his wife giving sexual favors to cylon Cavil. there is a resistance movement going on aided by an unknown informant. the Puppet president Gaius Baltar signed death lettters with a gun pointed to his head. (this i specifically remember in an episode). so its not always so cut and dry. Kira's own mother was a comfort woman but she later found that it was a sacrifice to save her husband and family.
BSG was great but failed at every point with Baltar. He was evil and selfish, doomed the whole world and cowered from the truth and tried to make himself a victim form day 1, then went on to commit more evil, pro-cylon actions. He should have just killed himself if he didn't have the balls to confess his crimes. Baltar was just wrong, just bad, just evil and selfish...nothing else. And he should have chose to die instead of sign death warrants, that handful of people is all that's left of humanity. He was a really sloppy, shitty poorly done take on the morally conflicted character. He was just a bad man and a selfish piece of shit, compounding his worthlessness by being a coward and in love with the hallucination of some robo bitch to boot. In order to cover up his lies he even works against the humans at key points and sets up their deaths or attempted assassinations.
Don't think I saw this episode but sounds like Gaius Baltar, though he did actually refuse to sign an order and the order was specifically literally death sentencing.
Angry lynch mob? Try hardcore members of the Bajoran resistance who have not integrated back into society. They would be on a quest to eradicate any collaborators from the puppet government. How convenient to have them on Bajor where they can be easily found. These folks would have access to high tech equipment and easily find a way to assassinate Kubus or others like him, or cause convenient "accidents" to occur. Also, don't say the Bajoran militia would be protecting him, as much of the militia was made up of former resistance fighters, there's bound to be many military officers still sympathetic to the cause.
True enough. Most likely former members of the Resistance found where Kubas was and killed him. In a dark fantasy of mine, the Pah-Wraith cultists kidnap Kubas and ritually sacrifice him to the Pah-Wraiths and then dump his corpse somewhere where it would be found to send a message that traitors to the Bajoran people cannot hide. I've got a twisted imagination at times it seems......
He would be living in a monastery and thus under the protection of the monks. Bajorans were radical, but also religiously devout and would br uncomfortable bringing violence into a monastery.
Odo did the same thing as this guy. He served a government as a law enforcer when he knew that their law and punishment were unjust. The bajorans always felt tribals with their customs and thinking. Giving the harshest punishment without thinking just to satisfy their emotions, glorifying their resistance when they accomplished nothing. The only good thing about them is how Kira started to grow out these notions throughout the series.
@Phelan There was a whole episode dedicated to how Odo sentenced three innocent bajorans to death because he was too distracted to give them a proper trial.
The resistance at least contributed to making the occupation untenable, which is an accomplishment. And the 'harshest punishment' claim doesn't hold up given Kubus' only punishment is exile. You should be aware many societies would execute people for less.
I wonder how this guy and the other members of the Bajoran Provisional Government at the time of the Cardassian Occupational forces felt seeing his fellow Bajorans being used as a slave labor force thinking they were doing what was best for Bajor.
True. Cardies retaliated against the Bajoran population not having any part of the resistance. Many died on the premise of for each life taken, one will be taken in exchange.
The Cardassian occupation was a nearly fifty year affair, yet canonically the Bajoran death toll was in the region of 15 million people. That's an average of 300,000 a year. Either Bajor has an astonishingly low population meaning that 15 million would be a high percentage of their total, or the atrocities of the Cardassians, while real, were nowhere near as systemic as they're made out to be. More akin to the condition of British rule in India than the Nazi regime in eastern Europe.
Bajor was a mostly agricultural planet with a wide, spread out population. I don't imagine that the population ever rose above 100 million, but that's just my idle speculation. It's not really just the deaths that made the occupation awful, but everything that they also did. Slave labor camps, intentionally exploiting and destroying parts of the ecosystem, forcing rule on the planet itself. Frankly the British rule comparison is pretty accurate.
The Cardassians also strip mined the planet, stole everything of value, and poisoned the soil when they left. They also took a lot of Bajorans off planet as slaves. Even if the casualties weren't that high, their society was on the verge of collapse.
@@KingOfMadCows Not to mention the whole comfort women scandal. I mean raze a planet and a civilization, but keeping a culture's women from their families as sex slaves? Repulsive!
Unforgiveness seems to run deep in the Bajoran race. Given their traumatic history, it's quite understandable. Kira's own personal conflicts were always acted very well by Nana Visitor.
And he has to die. Because he's arrogant. Because he's weak. Because he's a coward and we, the mob, want to throw him out the airlock because he didn't stand up to the Cardassians and get himself killed in the process. That's justice now. He should have been killed on Terok Nor, but since he had the temerity to live we're going to execute him now. That's justice.
I like Odo, but he's acting pretty self-righteous in this scene. I have not watched all episodes of DS9, but if I understand character history correctly, Odo worked for Cardassians, and it was Dukat that appointed him as a security chief, and he got at least 3 innocent mean killed. Yet here he talks as if he has right to judge collaborators. And how come Kira never considered and hated him as she does all collaborator? I can only guess Odo did treat Bajorans fairly. Still, that would mean him he heledp managing situation to be better than it would have been. And Kubus himself is making the argument that his collaboration helped his people to suffer less. Another funny thing is Odo uses that Dukat's claim of Kubus being his Bajoran to imply evidence of guilt, I recall Dukat once mentioned he liked Odo, should Odo consider himself guilty for Bajoran suffering as well?
The difference is that Odo never sent innocent people to their deaths /except for the 3 Bajorans in that one bombing incident but he didn't realize that they were innocent until after a 2nd bombing occurred/ while Kubus sent innocent people to their deaths by signing them off to be worked to death in mines by the Cardassians. Kira didn't hate him because he was fair in his judgments and didn't kiss up to the Cardassians like the Bajoran collaborators did. Being liked by Dukat isn't a crime but the reason Dukat liked Kubus is because he likely kissed up to him and did whatever he said which fed Dukat's ego. In contrast, Dukat liked Odo because Odo had the efficiency of a Cardassian in maintaining order on the station.
Despite the details for those difference, Odo is still judging a guy while he did similar things. Like you said being liked by Dukat isn't a crime, yet Odo is making it sound like it is one here.
Odo's likely been influenced by the Bajorans who he's spent his life around since he regards them as a good people who he sympathizes with so he's undoubtedly picked up some of their opinions on things such as collaborators, different races, politics, etc.
Gee Odo's very early awareness existence is UNDER Cardassians ruling Bajorans and his 'father' didn't really push the unfairness evil of it all but bully torture Odo to PERFORM as a lab rat! It took years for Odo to SEE the injustice going on but he FIRST only helped BAJORANS solve disputes. Odo under Dukat got put into being a station's arbitrator police. It took months and probably realizing after those 3 were executed his work was just adding to the horror BUT ODO BEING FAIR ARBITRATOR SAVED LIVES like KIRA's lying ass who did kill and murder(in selfdefense). Odo's luck the Bajorans got the Cardassians to gve up and sign a treaty and they KEPT ODO AS A FAIR Police of the station. His mistake only We & Odo(now Sisko & Kira) know Odo made mistakes and careless judgements but he DID NOT SIGN REPEATED PAPERS EXECUTING BAJORANS.
The Fact is the guy should know full well that because of what he did he can never go home to Bajor and shouldn't even want to, if not due to exile imposed by the new government, but out of personal shame or guilt. The fact that he wants to come home and objects to not being allowed to means he genuinely doesn't feel guilt or remorse for the part he played, that he doesn't think he was wrong.
@@ThePoshboy1 At best, he would have been killed. At worst, well, his family could have been involved. Either way, even if he didn't comply, they would have found somebody who would have. And even if there wasn't anybody to sign the meaningless so called legal forms, there would have been more people to work the mines. Kira is a self righteous terrorist. She killed everybody who she viewed as on the wrong side, even if they had nothing to do with it. Worse, in a later season episode, she was willing to travel back in time to kill her own mother if what Dukat said was true. I doubt Kubus ever had a good night's sleep in his life after he became a puppet for the Cardassian occupation. Kira, on the other hand, has been seen several times to sleep peacefully.
This dialog reminds me a bit of the one between Justice Robert Jackson and Herrmann Göring at the Nuremberg trials. Especially the part about the signature.
Odo didn't collaborate he would stand up to Dukat and other Cardassians and applied the rule of law fairly, earning the respect of both Cardassians and Bajorans.
Djarra Look, couldn't Odo have killed Dukat and a lot of Cardassian soldiers if he really wanted to, given his ability to shapeshift into various disguises?
It would go against his moral code, besides if a lot of high ranking Cardassians died mysteriously the Central Command would just have slaughterd a couple of million Bajorans in retaliation. Remember they obliterated a moon with over 2m Bajoran slave workers on to send a message after some Legate was killed there.
no1reallycaresabout2 And I know its been half a year since your comment, but the proclamation stated it included every Bajoran member. Which doesn't apply to Odo.
They weren't punishing anyone. Odo arrested a collaborator who wasn't where he was supposed to be. And, Kira informed Kubus that the Bajoran government had sentenced him to exile.
Ironic that Kira should be the one saying that. I wonder, how many Bajoran women and children did she and the Bajoran resistance kill when they bombed facilities on Bajor that the Cardassians held? By all accounts she should fall on her own sword as well as she probably has a lot of innocent blood on her hands.
Worst yet are the deaths that the Cardies took upon retaliation of innocent Bajorans who had no part of the resistance. It was well regarded to the resistance that they were the ones who controlled the fate of firing squads of the innocent by each act of violence committed against the Cardies. If resistance disbanded and complied, the innocent would not die. Of course, the whole idea of the resistance was to put things to stop by overthrowing the Cardies but they knew full well it would involve many not in the resistance to die. Therefore, the resistance played with the lives of the innocent for their own self-interests. No difference here than Kubus.
How many Bajorans did Kira kill not because they were collaborators, but because they had inadvertently gotten in the way of her objectives? And how would those Bajorans have felt about dying so that the Resistance could score points against their occupiers?
That is certainly a thought that would have occurred to Kubus. A Bajoran terrorist and a Cardassian work camp chief of security are now friends joining forces to sneer at him and *his* moral status. Liberated peoples have not tended to be understanding of their collaborators under any circumstance, whatever case they may make. So he is unlikely to get much sympathy from anyone else.
This is true. We learned from Dukat that he was ordered to kill a Bajoran civilian on a 1:1 basis for each Cardassian killed by the resistance. The idea was that such a policy would serve as a firewall to stop the resistance from continuing what they were doing. But this clearly did not impact the resistance. Imagine innocent Bajorans not having anything to do with the resistance being pulled out at night and killed all on the hands of the resistance members.
... And yet Odo sent prisoners to Cardassian tribunals, soon learning that it also meant death sentances yet he becomes Kira's lover and popular on Bajor... In real life he would have been just as hated.
Kubus' defence that he was just following orders and doing what he believed was best for Bajorans is virtually same as defence of almost every single Nazi war criminal that was ever brought to justice. While all that may as well have been true, there still cannot be any excuse for willingly sending people to death. They did it by their own free will and nobody can ever buy into that crap about following orders.
Yes, it's even called the Nuremberg Defense. Still, you have to question what difference it would've made here. Kubus would've been arrested or executed, maybe sent to the mines himself thanks to Dukat's twisted sense of humor, someone else would've gotten his office and they would be the one standing in that cell under Kira's stink-eye. Ultimately, it would've made no difference except another signature and one more dead Bajoran.
@@The_Mighty_Fiction You just proved my whole point. It doesn't make any difference. Kubus' intentions might have been noble, they probably were to at least some extent, but he is still guilty for sending people directly to death. They cannot just blame everything on Dukat and Cardassians and end the discussion there. It is not that easy. If it was then over 90% of Nazi war criminals would escape the gallows just because it was order from someone else which they had to follow. Command responsibility, which Kubus tried to put on Dukat here, cannot be applied. It is not matter of Cardassian occupation here, it is totally different case. This is matter of Bajoran collaborators who did do it all on their own free will. Nobody can convince me that Dukat threatened Kubus with violence every single day when he needed his signature for something. Dukat would have to do absolutely nothing but just sit next to Kubus and making him sign anything he wants.
@@miroslavtomic7038 I wouldn't disagree but the plot of the episode was that Kai Opaka sold out the location of a cell of Resistance fighters, including her own son, in order to save the rest of the valley where they were hiding and Kubus traded this information with Winn in exchange for sanctuary on Bajor. Winn used this information to force Bareil to drop out of the running for Kai to protect Opaka's reputation. Is it better or worse to collaborate in murders with the intention of saving lives other than your own? When does choice or lack thereof start to matter? You could argue many more people indirectly died because of the orders Kubus signed, even if it could've been anyone's signature. Meanwhile, Opaka _explicitly_ collaborated in the infamous massacre of forty three people with information the Cardassians wouldn't have gotten otherwise, for which another man was blamed and took his own life as a result, to save a few thousand people and yet, Kira goes along with the lie to protect her. After all, isn't that the selfsame excuse Kubus and, in fact, Dukat made? "It would've been worse if not for me?" She didn't ask herself if those people wanted to be saved like that, whether they were willing to die before they would give the Resistance up. She chose for them.
@@ThePoshboy1 i think they both redeem themselves of this. Odo for being like two years old during the occupation, and Kira for waking up and using her position to revolt.
The situation is not nearly as Black and white. When it concerns being a collaborator there are two sides to it. They are those who collaborate with the Enemy for personal survival for themselves and their loved ones. There are those who collaborate for profit and Gain on the blood of their own people. The greater question that Major Kira should be asking did the former secretary collaborate to save himself and millions of their people or for other reasons??
1/2 You don't always have that option to keep your head low with some police states. Robespierre's France, Hitler's Germany, and hardline communist governments like Lenin & Stalin's USSR, Mao's China, and N Korea It is Ideological state policy to make the whole population collaborators.
Ive never watched DS9 but am starting to actually enjoy it,is the guy asking the questions the security officer? If not who is he? And who is the Major she is a great actress, she doesn’t overdo it - the anger is well acted
In highschool, I became friends with a Korean guy who was super friendly and nice. He was actually one of the few people who stood up for me when I was outed as gay and the hazing got a lot worse. I always wondered, though, why the other Koreans at the school seemed to have an intense distaste for him and bullied him. When I asked him our third year, he told me that his family had been collaborators with the Japanese occupation before and during WWII. I guess word had gotten around somehow, maybe amongst the Korean parents or something. I remember feeling really sad when I learned that, especially because I'm Japanese-American--I could only imagine what the other kids must have said about me being his friend. Being raised away from the mainland I was very familiar with the atrocities the empire had committed, but it was the first time I had met someone who was affected by that and wasn't even alive at the time. On top of the direct suffering the empire had caused, it had created social fractures that would take generations to heal. I think that's wonderful about Star Trek, that everybody watching it brings their own experiences and memories to complex subjects.
It's a tricky question, on one had he really isn't a "bad" guy, he didn't hurt others because of ambition just to keep himself safe and if he hadn't done it someone else would have but at the same time he did help perpetuate the system that kept his people oppressed, if every collaborator(or even most) refused to work for the cardassians then that system couldn't work.
It was a devil's deal; sign the first work order, or be directly responsible for killing his entire family. And every time after that, the next would have been easier. Costing less of his soul to do each and every time. It is easy for someone with nothing left to lose to fight. It isn't the same for a person with everything left to lose.
DS9 was the greatest of the Treks. It had Worf. It had Sisko. It had this. TNG and Voyager had moral questions - but this really gave us so much more. Especially for a low-budget sci-fi show in the late 90s, the acting is just... amazing. These actors were robbed of awards.
This vid prompted me to do some searching. I remember a fictional short story of a WW2 German general who had a choice of surrendering to the Allies or fighting to the last man according to Hitler's orders. His wife was being held under house arrest...a glorified hostage. He got a letter from her saying that she was terminally ill. That gave him the courage to to surrender to the oncoming Allies and so spare the lives of his men. In fact, he shot his junior officer who was an agent spying on him to insure his loyalty. The story ends with 2 scenes...Hitler raving in Berlin that the disloyal general didn't fight to the death for love of der Führer (google for the Donald Duck cartoon...it's a trip) The other scene is the general's perfectly healthy wife being escorted away in a car by the Gestapo to her execution. It was her way of resisting...like Dietrich Bonhoeffer, in a way. Haven't found the story yet. But I did find this story about a gal who was a collaborator, and tried to make amends after the war. www-newyorker-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.newyorker.com/books/page-turner/i-was-a-nazi-and-heres-why/amp?amp_js_v=a2&_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQCKAE%3D#aoh=15692561353346&csi=1&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&_tf=From%20%251%24s
Kira didn't really do anything. She simply explained that Kubus was barred from returning to Bajor, by Bajoran law. Given what she said ("I think you got off too easy"), I think her preference for those like him would have either been prison or death.
I disagree with Kira wholeheartedly here. Supporting the occupation is one thing, but the Cardiassians committed mass genocide against the Bajorans. Asking another one not to sign work orders, to literally give up his life and thus be added to those statistics, is no better than signing them and having another die. If he stopped signing, the Cardassians would have just made someone else do it. Trading a life for a life, with the only difference being some sense of "honor," is stupid. "Die pointlessly so I'll feel better about all the other dead people" is not a cause to fight for--it's just a way for Kira to feel better about herself--and if it weren't for pressure from the Federation, the Cardassians could well have killed every last Bajoran. In a way, by performing his duties and preventing the successor at his job from having to make the same choice until the Federation came certainly saved his life and may have saved more lives if the Cardassians would have killed him AND other people for his refusal (which it seems like they'd do without a thought. For example, later in the episode, we find that Kai Opaka "collaborated" with the Cardassians and was responsible for killing 43 Bajorans to save 1,200 of them. Kubus's decision to work with them was not as Kira makes it out to be). But, you know. "Life" goes on, as crappy as it is, during occupations, and it's not tenable for everyone to fight. Food still has to reach the tables, and pacifying ruthless overlords might prevent them from killing elsewhere. But for Kira, at this time, it was black and white. Reality never is.
But the collaboration with Vedek Winn proves he was a selfish man who only looked out for himself and not his people. He only desired to return home because he was getting old and his health was failing. If he loved his people as much a he claimed, he would have tried to return home much earlier than he did. Regardless of whether or not he did what he did to save his people, he was still a selfish man at heart. He willingly left with the Cardassians, he wasn't forced to do so, he chose to do so.
"But the collaboration with Vedek Winn proves he was a selfish man who only looked out for himself and not his people." It doesn't prove he was "selfish," and so what if he was? There's nothing virtuous about accepting a punishment (exile) that you don't think is fair. All it "proves" is that he wanted something and thought other people were wrong to deny it to him. Selfishness is in the eye of the beholder, anyway, and relies on drawn lines. "He only desired to return home because he was getting old and his health was failing. If he loved his people as much a he claimed, he would have tried to return home much earlier than he did." I imagine he wanted to return home long before then but didn't want to risk it, regardless of what he thought of himself. Given the disposition of many Bajorans, Kira included, it's understandable that fear for his life and fear of confrontation might have outweighed the (non-existent) benefits of trying to return; instead, he chose to live with sadness and grief for what he'd lost until he thought he could actually have a chance at returning. "Regardless of whether or not he did what he did to save his people, he was still a selfish man at heart. He willingly left with the Cardassians, he wasn't forced to do so, he chose to do so." The Ilvian Proclamation exiled every Bajoran who worked for the occupational government. He no doubt left because he knew what would happen if he didn't; fear is a powerful force that isn't just motivated by selfishness. People aren't that two-dimensional.
Nothing you are saying is convincing Me that your points are valid. So with that in mind we should agree to disagree as its clear to Me we aren't going to see eye to eye on this.
Well, yeah. If you come into a discussion with no intention of changing your mind, that tends to happen. My point isn't to say he was right or wrong, but that we can't know and the judgement isn't easy to make. We obviously don't have enough information about Kubus from the show to make a full character judgement of him. We know a little about his past and what is presented to us; anything outside of that is pure speculation. The likely intent of the show as to show both that Kubus was a villain (he certainly was, to an extent, or at least an accessory to villainy), but also to show that the Bajorans (and Kira especially) are unflinchingly zealous in their convictions, and because of that, they're easily manipulated (See: Kai Winn). Also, the portrayal of Kira's convictions is somewhat erratic. Compare her opinion of Aamin Marritza in duet; he was part of the occupational government (as a Cardassian), followed orders, etc. He just had the temerity to cry about it in front of Kira, and Kira forgave him. Kubus showed regret, and she didn't. Both had a hand in fostering the death and slavery of Bajorans, but for some reason Kubus was expected to resist and be killed, while Marritza wasn't. Marritza's treatment was more fair; expecting someone to die just to avoid signing work orders is actually pretty monstrous. That's a theme for much of DS9 -- characters make gray choices that aren't obviously good or evil. Some characters (Kira, Odo, Bashir) are very firm in their convictions, and others (Dax, Sisko, Garak) are less firm to varying degrees, and that's exactly what the writers wanted to explore (exemplified in "In a Pale Moonlight.") They all change, to a degree, later. But yeah. It's okay to agree to disagree, but I think it's premature (minus arguing on the internet, of course. :)
Oh, and one other thing. The idea that it's acceptable for anyone to demand that SOMEONE ELSE die for a cause (which Kubus likely would have, had he failed to perform his job) is abominable. No one has the right to be make that demand of another person. It is a noble (sometimes) sacrifice, which must be voluntary, that lies entirely with the person who chooses it. Based on Kira's rants, his options were death at the hands of the Cardassians--for no real benefit other than to have another person take his place--or exile at the hands of the Bajorans.
The sad part is, what exactly could he have done? If he didn't sign that paperwork, it's not like the Cardassians would have just left. They would have done it with or without. Likely they'd have just killed him and gotten someone else to do the paperwork.
Watch the movie Schindler's List to see what he could've done, and I'm not talking about actively rescuing thousands of Bajorans, from his position he could have leaked information to the resistance, bribe Cardassians, secretly give money and resources to other Bajorans or aid in other means other than refusing to sign the paperwork, the point is that he didn't, he took the fact that he needs to support the Cardassians and just rolled with it for his own benefit without any attempt to help his people in any way.
I would like to see a show set on Bajor for the whole of the Occupation. It would be like a WW2 spy movie or those in Galactica on the Colonies with the Resistance. Best of all though, it would be gritty and blunt and it mite not even feel very "Star Trek" but I for one am tired of all the clean and shine of Starfleet, give me some nitty gritty!
He should have told the Cardassians about bucket excavators and the other fruits of the industrial revolution. Much more efficient than slave miners picking through the dirt with their bare hands! It would have freed Bajor *and* saved Cardassia!
How does such a person show repentance when those on the other side of the bars couldn't care less? Compassion might be difficult, but it is necessary.
I’m no lawyer, but “sign this or die” does not sound admissible. If there were a war crimes trial today he may well have been found to be under duress and not held accountable.
@@DavidMacDowellBlue With Cardassians, that goes without saying. Bajoran life was cheap to Cardassians during the Occupation. One "No" could result in execution.
@@EmptyMan000 This directly contradicts what we know of the Occupation. There were atrocities, yes, and mass murders, but nowhere has it been stated or implied that refusing to fill out a form--or quitting a bureaucratic job--was a death sentence. But assume for a moment that WAS how it worked. Then Kubus still had a choice--kill a bunch of innocents or die himself. The moral choice is absolutely clear--die. Now, if in fact you don't have that degree of moral courage, and you then help murder innocents. When you are caught, and exiled, then you absolutely have zero business complaining about that exile. Exile was a mercy. Kubus was a moral coward. He remains one.
Its not that the papers were signed, but that he was so readily willing to sign them. Remember he is Gul Dukats favorite Bajorian. Never a bad mark, never a reprimand, never a punishment. A good little tool that is willing to get their hands bloody for a comfy life for himself and his family and to hell with anyone else. He was a coward and a kiss ass.
@@Rodshark75 He just realised that whether or whether he tried to oppose the cardassians would not make the slightest bit of difference. To oppose them, he would probably just create more unnecessary suffering for his family and himself.
@@accomplisheddiplomat4091 Yes, HE would be willing to make that sacrifice instead of sacrificing the lives of hundreds, perhaps thousands of fellow Bajorians. It isn't about the act itself, it is about the willingness to put himself and his family above others, others suffered so he could be comfy in his position. The fact he was Gul Dukats "favorite Bajorian" pretty much sealed his fate.
@@Rodshark75 though I don't agree with what Kubis didn't. Many ,if not all of us would do the same. If a tyrant said kill two random people or your family gets tortured to death while you watch, you'd do the same
Ppl yapping about Odo working for Dukat IN Terok Nor. Kubus signed away orders that led to the slave laborers suffering and murders. Odo was a detective keeping things in order. Both Cardassians and Bajorans respected him. He was fair. The fact that the Bajorans choose to let them go on exile was rather kind all things considered
And what would've happened if he'd refused? He'd have been arrested or executed, maybe sent to the mines himself, someone else would've gotten his office and their signature would've been on those orders. I'm not saying it was right but ultimately, it would've made no difference except a signature, another dead Bajoran and somebody else standing in that cell under Kira's stink-eye.
It's amazing how freedom fighters and those oppressed turn into tyrants or the very thing they claim to fight. Makes you really think about the real motives and the kinds of people revolutions put into power. Kubus really didn't have a choice in that whole thing, work with the Cardassians or end up in the work camps if you are lucky or your family does. No matter his choice the deaths would have happen either way so he is punished for a moot choice that just saved him from one kind of torture only to drop him into another. Life is cruel and rarely if ever fair even in fiction.
Doctor Who made that point when the 12th Doctor asked the rebel leader what she was going to do the day someone like her arises to which she replied that she would kill them.
He never argues he would have been killed--why do you? You're making an assumption. And nearly all of Kira's family was slaughtered by the Cardassians. It is amazing she grew to see them as individuals at all after a trauma like that.
@@DavidMacDowellBlue Why would they allow an insubordinate politician to go unpunished? The occupation in and of itself shows their lack of care for Bajorans wellbeing, they'd have no reason to suddenly care for him like he was one of their own (not that that would be much better love tbf)
@@MB-sq7yn He really had no choice, he is not a SS officer, his a random french guy force to sign the death of innocents, if he refuses, they will shoot and kill his family, his friends, his lover then torture him until he screams for death. Really not a big choice in that matter is there? It is easy to say "I WOULD NEVER DO IT!!" when in reality if they offer you the same god damn deal everyone would take it. Edit: not counting he was just a name, he was not really one signing, just a name they used, which makes it even worse, he was just a guy who was force to kill his brothers and sisters and if he refused, well there another worker who will be happy to replace him.
@@Fourtytwo4242 No actually many people didn't take such an offer, enough in fact to form things like resistance cells to try and combat the occupation. "Just following orders" was a phrase that explicitly didn't work as a defense for being part of the holocaust.
It seems to me that Kubus was in a unfair situation no matter how you look at it. If he refused to sign those papers, his name would had no doubt of ended up on that list and then they'd just have someone else to sign them. Essentially it was a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation. And in the end, well the Bajorans needed some one to take their anger out on, so him and the other "collaborators" a.k.a people who just doing what they could in a unspeakably horrible situation.
From the episode "A Man Alone" QUARK Nobody knows him like I know him. Let me tell you something -- he's an ill-tempered, over-bearing crosspatch. But he was no Cardassian collaborator. And he's no killer.
@@Overonator From the episode "Things Past" DAX What was it the Moderator said? (remembering) "You may have worked for the Cardassians, but your only master was Justice."
Why did he do it? Did he really think what he was doing was going to make the whole situation on bajor better, did he even see what was really going on? At least dukat was actually on DS9 where allot of bad shit was happening, granted he didnt care but atleast he could see what was happening unlike kubus. Not that im defending kubus but didn’t they let Ibudon go free even though he was a smuggler who gouged his own people even if they were in need of medical supplies. While serving as chief of security on Terok Nor, Constable Odo once saw Ibudan let a child die when the parents couldn't afford the drug that would have saved her life. Despite this, some Bajorans actually considered him a hero. He even paid off cardassian officials to look the other way, I don’t know if its mentioned anywhere but I bet he did since others like him usually did.
"And that's why you can never be allowed to set foot on Bajor again. Because if you do, it would dishonor the memory of every person you sentenced to death." Her summation is just, succinct, and devastating.
she also said exile of the collaborators on a list made up "you got off easy" I don't know about you, but to me that sounds like they should've been executed either by the Bajoran government or a mob
@@DantesonofSparda85 Just imagine the sick and twisted dreams that Bajoran Freedom Fighters must have clung to. Just TRY to envision the sadistic plans for top collaborator #3 that some angsty 13 year olds, coated in the blood of friends and enemies alike, starved, scared, and too stressed to think straight, dreamed up for Kubus as they hid in hills like animals. The Federation probably had to evacuate the "government officials" after #'s 1, 2 & 3 were found, having been subjected to literally the worst tortures throughout Bajoran History. The Bajoran "Provisional Government" probably had to make up some schpeel about how "We have chosen to elect mercy towards our enemies, not because they deserve it, but because WE deserve it. All Collaborators have been forced off of Bajor, may they return to their Cardassian Masters where they belong." After god-like transporter technology and SEVERAL Picard speeches made it clear that the Federation will NOT tolerate the ethnic cleansing of all; Cardassians, Cardassian Sympathizers, Members of Governments ALLIED to Cardassia, Establishments that served Cardassians, Reptoid species that kinda resemble Cardassians, and basically everyone else who didn't pick up a phaser.
if he didnt 'sentence them to death' then he himself - and his family - would have been killed or been on one of those lists that theyd have made some other bajoran sign. with or without him the occupation would have kept going. he had no choice but to do it, unless he was a bloody masochist who wanted to die. and you have to remember, not everyone is brave or strong enough to be a resistance fighter. this whole 'collaborators are evil, all of them, no exceptions, full stop.' rule also falls apart if you decide to question by how much a person collaborated. this one man was forced to send bajorans off to a labour camp else he himself would go. hes a collaborator? ok, send him off to jail! this other bajoran was working as a local official overseeing local laws and was ordered to arrest crime-committing countrymen. hes a collaborator? kinda, since he coulda let the guys off, either way send him off to jail! this third bajoran ran a business that the cardassians used to visit on occasion and bought things from him. hes a collaborator? not really? he could have decided not to serve them, or purposefully charged them more, or even ruined the products, send him off to jail! this last bajoran grew food that the cardassians took to feed themselves. hes a collaborator? no? but he kept the occupying enemy well fed and nurtured. hes clearly guilty, send him off to jail! you see the problem? if you decide to rule by the logic of 'they helped them, so they are as guilty as them!' then you run into a whole box of issues, and if you decide to pick and choose then that makes you a hypocrite for allowing one mans collaboration to go fine but another ones to go off scot free. and if you decide all are guilty then youre telling a farmer hes as bad a sinner as the butcher of galotep simply because he made wheat for bread that cardassians ate. collaborators were in no-win situations, and youll be in one too if you try and punish them for it.
I think about a scene from Moore's BSG, where Baltar is forced to sign an execution order at literal gunpoint. He was definitely shitty and ineffective as a leader prior to that, but man, it's harrowing seeing the flipside of that regardless.
BSG handled this subject the worst of any show in history. Baltar was evil, period. He actively worked against humanity the entire show, and just to selfishly cover his ass and not admit what he did in episode 1 which really wasn't his fault at the time. He could have come clean and begged for mercy, but he just lies, sets up Adama and Kane to be killed and give the cylon bitch a nuclear bomb to eradicate even more humans....
It would be better for Kubus to stay away from Bajor for his own safety. He almost got lynched on DS9 had it not been for Odo. Down on Bajor I very much doubt that police or any kind of authority would do anything to protect him from being lynched if he was recognised. Plus, by the time of this scene, you can bet that the word about his arrival has already reached Bajor and they were waiting for him.
@@Archedgar But that would reveal the entire plot to the public. That would not be good for Kai Winn for sure. She would have to keep his presence on Bajor a total secret from everybody.
the government approved, not the person. remember to always use the bureaucracy as your tool and never admit to anything. the society is at guilt, the government is at guilt, I merely did what I was ordered, and so on and so forth. it works.
An old man that made numerous sacrifices for the sake of Bajor, and they won't even let him die in peace. Most of the Bajorans in the provisional government were only there as a means of protecting their fellow Bajorans from a purely Cardassian controlled government.
I have to admit, as much as I like Odo, when he mocked Kubus for being nice to Dukat, part of me wished Kubus had responded, "And how many times did you insult Dukat to his face, Constable?"
Odo was just more truthful when it came to dukat
Absolutely correct. Odo was a collaborator as much as Kubus. Working as station security, he was equally at fault for supporting the genocide-machine.
Odo's personal animosity towards Dukat has been well documented over the whole series and that animosity extended to every single person who ever had to do with Dukat. Like Quark and Kubus.
@@stratfordbaby I have to partially disagree. While most of you said was true, he was still representative of Founders and was just overseeing the whole occupation. He had no choice but support Cardassian occupation, despite his personal animosity towards them, especially towards Gul Dukat. There is difference between collaborators, who served occupators wllingly, like Kubus, and Odo, who was just serving his purpose as Founder. Same thing happened when Dominion retook DS9 and Odo had to cooperate with Dukat again. There is huge difference between Kubus and Odo. I do, however, have to agree with you that Odo did absolutely nothing to at least try to make life of Bajorans easier. But if we were to condemn every single person who had anything to do with any occupation, than every country that was occupied by Nazis would have to lose thousands or even more people. It just doesn't work that way.
@@miroslavtomic7038 I never suggested Odo liked Dukat. I'm pointing out that Odo worked for him as part of Cardassian law enforcement and followed his orders.
Over the course of DS9, Kira evolved from an angry young woman working hard to move on from a tragic situation, to an older woman who was (seemingly) more at peace with the past. I wonder how this scene would've played out later on in the series. Would she still have denied Kubus? Or would she have helped him, showing mercy in the process? That would've been interesting to see.
I agree that she would have still denied him but she might not have been so biting in her denial.
@Leo Peridot The baptists, evangellies, and mormons, hardly war with one another the way the sects of Islam do. Though I cannot speak on mormons as I don't interact with them very often, I find the idea of mercy among Christian sects is mostly determined by secular political ideology opposed to faith and doctrinal beliefs.
I suppose they are not that dissimilar to the Bajorans in that regard. The post-occupation Bajoran religion seems to be both the support for and supported by Bajoran patriotism. And you can clearly see the parallel there. But you must also take into account that Kira was a partisan terrorist.
Her views will always be more radical. And though she does eventually begin to temper her zealotry toward Cardassians, a traitor to her own? Never. Her partisan beliefs--not her spiritual ones dictate that a traitor like Kubus can never be redeemed back into the patriotic fold.
The irony of her becoming a Dominion collaborator during their occupation of DS9, thereby proving that even "patriots" can sell out, is an interesting lesson an political pragmatism and how quickly ideals and values can go out the window when put in dire constitutions.
@Leo Peridot There hasn't been a crusade in hundreds of years, witch burning, or institutionalized slavery in the United States in over a century. And I can only think of one real instance of the Mormons warring on anyone, and those were settlers in the 1800's in Utah. And digging into the Romish church's blood-letting in Europe and western Asia hundreds of years ago hardly equates to how things work today. For one thing, looking at the papist empire of that time, you will see again, Rome became not just a religious and spiritual power but a political one as well. And political aspirations drove much of what they did. The same could be said for Protestant movements like the Church of England. Again, heavily wed to the state. A truly dangerous combination that sadly is never far in the shadows of any major religion's mind.
As for Mr. Brown. I would argue that John Brown was far more aggressive than the Maquis ever were. He made a name for himself butchering pro-slavery people in Kansas with broadswords. And while his ultimately futile attempt to raise up a slave army was the catalyst for many things, one thing you must remember is that in his zeal, the first man shot during his up rising in Harper's Ferry was Heyward Shepperd, a free black, who worked as a baggage handler. The price of terrorism, even if the ideal behind it is potentially noble, is collateral damage.
Kira has one of the best arcs in the franchise. It's a slow, over time believable change.
That said the fact Kai Opaka collaborated might have woken her up to her being wrong. She would turn on anyone, even the man she loved for the same crime but she could not hold blame for the Opaka; and if Opaka could do that, then maybe the others had justification too.
@@BlazingOwnager Which episode did that happen? I'm playing catchup with the series.
Star Trek: Deep Space 9 is and always will be, my absolute favorite series of Star Trek.
Top2 for me
Definitely !
"Your name was Number 4 on that list." I wonder who the Top 3 were...
That would be interesting to find out. Most likely the number 1 Bajoran on the list was the last head of the Bajoran liason government with numbers 2 and 3 being the two ministers more influential then Kubas.
Little known fact: number 1 was Taban Kira (Kira Nerys' father!!!)
@@jimhuffman9434 What?
@@emersonmcnerney7695 I was kidding
That would be an interesting plot point.
odo is on a pretty high horse for a guy who worked for the cardassians
+kurumais Odo never really worked for the cardassians but rather for his own sense of justice and order (which is very dominant in changelings, especially in the founders). This way he gained the respect of the bajorans, because he actually listened to their side of the story while he searched for the truth without bias. And thats also why Dukat chose him to run security on the station, because with this attitude he would be better at keeping the bajorans in order than any cardassian ever would.
I agree. While Odo's loyalty was to justice, not the Cardassians he still worked for them, not to mention he got at least 3 innocent men killed under his watch.
yeah i actually agree.
Gee Odo's very early awareness existence is UNDER Cardassians ruling Bajorans and his 'father' didn't really push the unfairness evil of it all but bully torture Odo to PERFORM as a lab rat! It took years for Odo to SEE the injustice going on but he FIRST only helped BAJORANS solve disputes. Odo under Dukat got put into being a station's arbitrator police. It took months and probably realizing after those 3 were executed his work was just adding to the horror BUT ODO BEING FAIR ARBITRATOR SAVED LIVES like KIRA's lying ass who did kill and murder(in selfdefense). Odo's luck the Bajorans got the Cardassians to gve up and sign a treaty and they KEPT ODO AS A FAIR Police of the station. His mistake only We & Odo(now Sisko & Kira) know Odo made mistakes and careless judgements but he DID NOT SIGN REPEATED PAPERS EXECUTING BAJORANS.
Simpler than that, actually. Odo was seen as a fair dealer. The Cardassians exploited that by giving him a title and job, but would he have done what this Bajoran was accused of, signing capricious death warrants disguised as work orders? I doubt it. And I'm sure Odo cemented his reputation among the Bajorans by standing up to Duikat several times.
How hypocritical of Odo. Even Kira had issues with Quark for operating his independent establishment on the station as a quasi-collaborator. Odo directly worked for the Cardassians.
Kira's problems with Quark went beyond running a business on a Cardassian station during the Occupation. He cheats his customers, is a slimy toad and mistreated his brother Rom. Odo in contrast was a good person even during the Occupation and worked to save innocent lives by properly investigating them if they were accused of a crime and if he found them to be innocent, he told Dukat that they were innocent and were let go.
A lot of Bajorans owe their lives to Odo for actually doing his job properly and not having them killed by the Cardassians just for being Bajorans.
Mostly true, except for the three innocent Bajorans who were falsely accused and executed by Odo of trying to kill Gul Dukat. But then again, that was one time.
That's some revisionist Ferengi History there. Did you forget the False Prophets episode of Voyager? Where two ferengi subjugate an entire race? Exploitation is one of the hallmarks of the Ferengi.
Jacob Swing Yeah, Quark is pretty tame and generous compared to most Ferengi. It’s even mentioned that during the Bajoran Occupation, Quark sold items at or below cost to Bajorans which is not only against Ferengi culture, but could have landed him in serious trouble with the Cardassians.
Austin Boylan I think Quark was more afraid of the F.C.A.!!!! Then any Cardassain, Klingon, Bajoran, or Hoo-mon
I have the feeling Cardassia would get its miners whether he signed it or not.
It was a no win situation for Kubus. Likely the only thing that would have helped him would have been if he signed the papers, but then leaked as much information to the resistance if he could. Even then, he'd still likely have been hated by most, and absolutely would have been killed if caught, he just might have been allowed to stay on Bajor at best.
Phelan you mistake my explanation for defense, I was merely pointing out the only way he could make his situation better, not that he should have been in that situation to begin with.
To quote the rival show to DS9:
"It doesn't matter if they would stop!
It doesn't matter if they'd listen!
YOU had an obligation to SPEAK OUT!"
@Phelan You have one major flaw in your argument here: You forget about the level of technology involved in this scenario. This isn't a country trying to control another country, this is a large interplanetary empire that has conquered a single, less advanced planet *solely for the resources that planet holds* and is using their immense technological advantage to maintain that dominion. The Cardassian Union was an advanced military powerhouse that spanned dozens of planets and had access to the vast resources available within, and the Bajorans had just one world with plentiful resources but lower technology. In a stand up fight, the Bajorans would be wiped out without doing more than annoying the Cardassians slightly.
The Bajorans were used for miners solely for convenience. They had absolutely no value to the Cardassians otherwise. If literally no Bajorans had collaborated, then the Cardassians would just wipe out the entire population and mine the resources needed themselves. They had no problem working dozens, hundreds, or thousands to death in the mines, not to mention sending out soldiers to purge any town or city they caught collaborating with the resistance, so it's clear that to the average Cardassian, the Bajoran peoples' lives were worth nothing aside from how much ore they could extract per day.
It's horrifyingly easy to kill a planet's biosphere in the 24th century: Benjamin Cisco himself demonstrated that with a single photon torpedo with an altered payload, you can render an entire planet incapable of sustaining life for decades, and that's on a single standard *Federation* vessel. Imagine what an armada of Cardassian *warships* could do to a planet's surface and/or population: One planet killer dropped, and then just gun down anyone who tries to flee the planet. The Cardassians could literally have genocided the population from orbit at the press of a button, and either bring in an automated work force, or import a new slave race to mine the now depopulated planet.
The Bajorans are lucky the Cardassians didn't decide to drop a torpedo like that when they left the planet. The only reason I can think of for why the Cardassians didn't wipe out the Bajorans is because the Cardassians were concerned that it might spark a war with the Federation, and the Cardassians didn't want to risk that at that point in time. But then again, the Federation didn't exactly do anything while the Bajorans were being worked to death by the hundreds of thousands, so maybe it's more likely that the Cardassians didn't even consider the Bajorans worth the cost of a torpedo.
So, the people in the Bajoran government had two options: Either submit and hope that at a later date they might be able to gain freedom from Cardassian oppression, or refuse, and literally *everyone* on the planet dies and the Cardassians still get to extract the resources from their world. I'm not saying I like or promote the choice he made, but I can *understand* why he would have made it.
But having Kubur sign orders like that will divide the Bajorans. The Cardassians get Bajorans to collaborate not because they need permission. They do it because they want the Bajorans to turn on each other, to give the Resistance another target. They want the Resistance to think that there are traitors in their own ranks. They want the Resistance to waste their resources going after poor schmucks who were forced to at gunpoint to help the Cardassians.
It's like how the Cardassians put mix civilians with military. They make it so the Resistance can't attack a Cardassian base without causing Bajoran civilian casualties. It demoralizes the Resistance and makes people less willing to join.
One question: When Bajor becomes a Federation member, all Bajorans get Federation citizenship and with that the right to go to any Federation world. Does that mean people like Kubus can get back to Bajor under Federation law if not Bajoran law as a citizen of the Federation?
No, the Federation upholds local laws. This is why it takes years to gain citizenship in the federation. Each law and treaty is examined to ensure that the federations own laws arent in conflict.
AmericanPoliceState Good answer. :-)
+chrismc410 Whether or not Kubus could go back to Bajor doesn't matter as Winn made a deal with him to allow him to live out his last few years on Bajor at a monastery/temple if he provided testimony against her rival Vedek Bareil that he ordered a Bajoran official to tell the Cardassians where a resistance cell was hiding.
No
They are exiled as individuals, not specifically as Bajorans.
Maybe he can go to federation colonies.
It probably kept Kubus alive not setting foot on Bajor, I would imagine the list of Bajorans who would want him dead was quite long.
Yep probably a mercy
@@kazic284 Indeed it was a mercy. The government would easily turn a blind eye to it, as well
Kubus was given sanctuary on Bajor, which means he was under government protection.
Wasn't there an episode that called out Odo for allowing some Bajorans to be murdered for crimes they didn't commit?
Maybe the rest of the episode provides information that would change my POV, but, what could he honestly be expected to do?
Kubus: I refuse to sign this order
BLAM
Random Cardassian: All right, get me a new one, this one was defective.
@Emperor Ssraeshza Psssst... Socialism is an economic model, like capitalism. It's not a form of government.
@Emperor Ssraeshza I know words are hard. There are these things called dictionaries to help you. Here's the Merriam Webster definition of Socialism. Definition of socialism. 1 : any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods.
Note: ECONOMIC. You can have a totalitarian government that is capitalist and you can have a democratic government that is socialist. Ask Sweden.
*pats you on the head* Go on now! Discover books!
@Emperor Ssraeshza Awww, you think Lenin invented socialism. That's cute.... He invented the Leninism school of Communism honey. The clue is in the name, try reading some actual history books sometime. Or you know, spend 30 seconds on google.
Seriously I sometimes wonder, are people like you actual trolls of just victims of a really sub-standard education system that can't be arsed to teach the difference between a Political system and an economic one.
@Emperor Ssraeshza The United Kingdom. National Insurance act of 1911. Compulsory contributions to provide for universal Old age pensions and limited free public health provision all controlled and provided by the state. Literally the dictionary and textbook definition of a socialist provision.
Norway implemented a similar system in 1910.
@Emperor Ssraeshza Also a so many people have tried in vain to explain socialism is an economic system, not a political one. Political and Economic systems are linked but not identical.
Literally every developed nation includes at least some parts of a socialist economic system within their overall economic system. Something referred to as Social Democratism.
To get the whole story on just what Kubus Oak did during the occupation to be despised so... the Terok Nor trilogy of books are FANTASTIC. Look for Day of the Vipers by James Swallow. A GREAT book and the first of the trilogy.
I can understand the motivations of the collaborator. I just wish they allowed him to give his rationale for his actions. "Yes, I collaborated with the Cardassians. Yes i signed those labor orders. You think if I hadn't that I would be the only one executed? My family would be laying right next to me. If I hadn't signed they would just find someone else who would and the deaths of me and my family would have changed nothing. Its easy to say that you wouldn't, but you don't have children Kira. I don't expect you to understand."
The Occupation cost Kira her father, mother and numerous friends. She lost plenty, but she didn’t let that force her into submission.
Yes she didn’t have children, but even if she did, Kira is the kind of person that wouldn’t have let that stop her.
The problem is, Kira knows full well the Cardassians would have gotten what they wanted without him. Every Bajoran would know that. The thing is, to secure his own safety and that of his family, he condemned how many of his own people? Thousands? Condemned them to a hard and miserable life that's only purpose was to feed the Cardassian machine until the Cardassians either killed them, a mining accident took them out, or their bodies failed them from abuse, fatigue, and or disease. He betrayed his entire race to secure a spot eating the crumbs off Dukat's table. I understand his desire to go home after being exiled...but obviously he did not value Bajor nearly as much when it mattered.
@GreenLanternSalem not really the same.
"My family would gladly die to defy the occupation, I would have gladly died to defy the occupation. Maybe they might have found a bigger coward and sell out than you, but I doubt it. The fact that you so easily rationalize killing innocent Bajorian lives, the lives of YOUR people, so you and your family could have a comfortable life as Dukats pets means that YOU are the one that doesn't understand. The prophets have turned their back on you, your people turn their back on you... just like you did to them during the occupation. *turns her back on him and walks out*
@@Rodshark75 people lile you make me sick life is not not black white take the france calabrites during ww2 you'r job isnt to care about others then its to survive by any means nessarey you'r family priorty not someoneelses like with france they where stuck in a no win sitution
Does Kira really think the absence of Kubus' signature would've stopped the Cardassians from sending those Bajorans to the mines?
Its more the fact he did it willingly that is what she is against.
He was remembered as never trying to fight back so in her eyes he was weak and just as guilty of killing Bajorans as the Cardassians.
Odo may have worked with the Cardassians, but he atleast tried to save those who weren't guilty.
To Kira, Kubas was was a traitor who was only sorry for his actions due to his advancing age and health.
Not to mention the fact he later works with Vedek Winn, who agreed to allow him to return home in exchange for information against Vedek Bareil with who she was fighting with politically for the position of Kai.
That alone proves he was a selfish man.
No. But that doesn't change the fact he signed them. Would some other Gul other than Dukat have given those kinds of orders? Certainly. But that doesn't make Gul Dukat any less guilty of actually doing it.
I don't think you understand how collaboration works. That's a little troubling.
It isn't about the signatures themselves but about a coward who would sentence thousands to death instead of taking a stand and sacrificing themselves rather than murder others. The fact that he so readily toadied up to and served the Cardassians is his true crime. Not one bad mark, not one reprimand, not one punishment, just Gul Dukats favorite slave, willing to get his hands bloody so he can have a cushy life.
@IdleBigots Yes, it was no win/ but it came down to a choice, he made that choice. To be selfish and sacrifice others and to play along instead of being selfless and sacrifice himself and his family to resist.
Odo calling anyone a collaborator is hilarious
I don’t think he was, either.
@@teleportedbreadfor3days bruh he’s an established officer of Cardassian Courts so he can testify at Cardassian trials, where the verdict and punishment and decided beforehand
@@jamesoncatlett6784 That isn’t something that makes him a collaborator
@@teleportedbreadfor3days it literally is him collaborating with rigged trials
@@jamesoncatlett6784 And well after the occupation ended, to boot?
Wow, I wonder if Kira was this hard on Odo for his role in sentencing Bajorans to death...
One thing I had always wondered about this guy is did he finally get his wish to set foot on Bajora again during the Dominion War when the Cardassians retook control of Terok Nor/Deep Space Nine.
I would assume not-after all, Cardassia didn't rule the station, the Dominion did, and they had a peace treaty with Bajor. The Dominion would have no reason to violate Bajoran law for the sake of a washed up Cardassian collaborator; they'd have nothing to gain from it.
@@vurrunna Sadly for the information against Bareil in the upcoming election for Kai, Winn granted Kubus sanctuary on Bajor.
For those wondering, this came from Season 2 Episode 24 of Deep Space Nine.
THANK YOU! I looked through the whole comments section sheesh
@@noahschneider400 You are most welcome buddy! Take care and have a good one. 😉👍
@@maddan9086 you too!
Interesting double standard on this topic . They deny a return from exile for this man but I remember an episode where one of the cell leaders who happened to be in some governmental posting since the war was found to have been a collaborator , but they did nothing to him . Guess it pays to know where the bodies are buried .
Power is a truly odd thing in this situation. You have it because someone else wants it. And yet anything less than indirect sabotage will get you kicked off the planet.
Kubus wasn't any better or worse than most people at the time, he was merely a scape goat to blame.
She also was able to forgive Odo pretty quickly, even forming a long term relationship with him. Hell, from the beginning, she knew Odo was a collaborator. She didn't have a problem until she found out he was involved in an execution. I love Kira, but she has had some glaring double standards.
Kira was a rubbish character, very "ive decided so fuck you!" attitude, in some real sad scenes including this one, she is grinning when meant to be sad and angry.
I think we have to distinguish between collaborators and enthusiastic collaborators. Most people when faced with a ruthless, totalitarian regime would acquiesce to its demands.
But in this case, he was Dukats "favorite Bajorian", and I think he actually got promoted and never had a reprimand. That is enthusiastic collaborator if ever I saw one.
Its because of hairsplitting like that, that results in seemingly relentless coups.
You have a valid point. Some people collaborate because they admire the invaders. Others collaborate only in fear of their lives. Not everyone has the constitution to stand up and say “No,” particularly if they have a family’s safety to consider.
That said, I wonder which Kubus was. History is written by the victors; which has a way of demonizing not only the enemy, but those seen as those who helped them.
Granted, I’m not saying all enemies of victors were innocent angels - hell, Dukat alone proved the exact opposite. But, its also not hard to see some random, fearful man who could be seen as easily swayed by terror joining the enemy as a “Live today to fight tomorrow,” but its also simple to see a weak minded younger man be dazzled by power and a comfortable life in an enemy nest be made to commit acts of tragedy that are easy to turn a blind eye to, because they’re simply not in your field of vision. It begs the question, “willing collaborator, or forced collaborator?”
My guess is, the Bajoran Provisional Government said “Likely both of them on this list of traitors… and we could argue the merits and demerits of each for the next twenty years, or we can make a decision, now, that’s fit for them all. Exile them all, now.”
watching this reminds me of the "occupation" season of battlestar galactica. its been awhile so ill refer to wikipedia. Saul was freed from prison in exchange for his wife giving sexual favors to cylon Cavil. there is a resistance movement going on aided by an unknown informant. the Puppet president Gaius Baltar signed death lettters with a gun pointed to his head. (this i specifically remember in an episode). so its not always so cut and dry. Kira's own mother was a comfort woman but she later found that it was a sacrifice to save her husband and family.
BSG was great but failed at every point with Baltar. He was evil and selfish, doomed the whole world and cowered from the truth and tried to make himself a victim form day 1, then went on to commit more evil, pro-cylon actions. He should have just killed himself if he didn't have the balls to confess his crimes. Baltar was just wrong, just bad, just evil and selfish...nothing else. And he should have chose to die instead of sign death warrants, that handful of people is all that's left of humanity.
He was a really sloppy, shitty poorly done take on the morally conflicted character. He was just a bad man and a selfish piece of shit, compounding his worthlessness by being a coward and in love with the hallucination of some robo bitch to boot. In order to cover up his lies he even works against the humans at key points and sets up their deaths or attempted assassinations.
It's horrifying that you would use the term *comfort woman*
@@AlphaCentComWhy?
@@FLCLimaxxxNo please, do go on with your hate boner for Gaias Baltar. Your incoherent rambling is sure to divulge some kernel of truthful insight.
@@UltraGalaxyify Because it's a euphemism meant to hide the horror the women experienced.
Don't think I saw this episode but sounds like Gaius Baltar, though he did actually refuse to sign an order and the order was specifically literally death sentencing.
In this episode Kai Winn allows Kubus to return to Bajor and there is no indication this decision was reversed. He won
But how long did he live once he set foot on Bajor? How do we know that an angry lynch mob didn't get their hands on him at some point?
Angry lynch mob? Try hardcore members of the Bajoran resistance who have not integrated back into society. They would be on a quest to eradicate any collaborators from the puppet government. How convenient to have them on Bajor where they can be easily found. These folks would have access to high tech equipment and easily find a way to assassinate Kubus or others like him, or cause convenient "accidents" to occur. Also, don't say the Bajoran militia would be protecting him, as much of the militia was made up of former resistance fighters, there's bound to be many military officers still sympathetic to the cause.
True enough. Most likely former members of the Resistance found where Kubas was and killed him. In a dark fantasy of mine, the Pah-Wraith cultists kidnap Kubas and ritually sacrifice him to the Pah-Wraiths and then dump his corpse somewhere where it would be found to send a message that traitors to the Bajoran people cannot hide.
I've got a twisted imagination at times it seems......
They just graffitied swazis on his house and slashed his car tires. They also made scary threatening phone calls to his home now and then.
He would be living in a monastery and thus under the protection of the monks.
Bajorans were radical, but also religiously devout and would br uncomfortable bringing violence into a monastery.
Odo did the same thing as this guy. He served a government as a law enforcer when he knew that their law and punishment were unjust.
The bajorans always felt tribals with their customs and thinking. Giving the harshest punishment without thinking just to satisfy their emotions, glorifying their resistance when they accomplished nothing. The only good thing about them is how Kira started to grow out these notions throughout the series.
@Phelan There was a whole episode dedicated to how Odo sentenced three innocent bajorans to death because he was too distracted to give them a proper trial.
what does "felt tribals with their customs" mean?
@@rogerscottcathey Think he meant 'Tribalistic'.
@@dashwhatchamakalit : that makes sense. tyvm.
The resistance at least contributed to making the occupation untenable, which is an accomplishment. And the 'harshest punishment' claim doesn't hold up given Kubus' only punishment is exile. You should be aware many societies would execute people for less.
A parallel with Chaim Rumkowski ....
I wonder how this guy and the other members of the Bajoran Provisional Government at the time of the Cardassian Occupational forces felt seeing his fellow Bajorans being used as a slave labor force thinking they were doing what was best for Bajor.
I wonder how many innocent Bajorians Kira is responsible for killing during her efforts to oppose the Cardassians in the resistance.
True. Cardies retaliated against the Bajoran population not having any part of the resistance. Many died on the premise of for each life taken, one will be taken in exchange.
This ... is kinda hard to square with the Kira that went through this in Duet. Pretty much the same culpability, all things considered.
Dac85 Maritza was willing to die and blamed himself for not stopping it. Kira was more sympathetic for that.
The Cardassian occupation was a nearly fifty year affair, yet canonically the Bajoran death toll was in the region of 15 million people.
That's an average of 300,000 a year.
Either Bajor has an astonishingly low population meaning that 15 million would be a high percentage of their total, or the atrocities of the Cardassians, while real, were nowhere near as systemic as they're made out to be. More akin to the condition of British rule in India than the Nazi regime in eastern Europe.
Bajor was a mostly agricultural planet with a wide, spread out population. I don't imagine that the population ever rose above 100 million, but that's just my idle speculation. It's not really just the deaths that made the occupation awful, but everything that they also did. Slave labor camps, intentionally exploiting and destroying parts of the ecosystem, forcing rule on the planet itself. Frankly the British rule comparison is pretty accurate.
The Cardassians also strip mined the planet, stole everything of value, and poisoned the soil when they left. They also took a lot of Bajorans off planet as slaves. Even if the casualties weren't that high, their society was on the verge of collapse.
@@KingOfMadCows Not to mention the whole comfort women scandal. I mean raze a planet and a civilization, but keeping a culture's women from their families as sex slaves? Repulsive!
Unforgiveness seems to run deep in the Bajoran race. Given their traumatic history, it's quite understandable. Kira's own personal conflicts were always acted very well by Nana Visitor.
So he's like the Gaius Baltar of Bajor.
More like Philippe Pétian, President of the "État Français", better known as Vichy France, during World War II.
And he has to die. Because he's arrogant. Because he's weak. Because he's a coward and we, the mob, want to throw him out the airlock because he didn't stand up to the Cardassians and get himself killed in the process. That's justice now. He should have been killed on Terok Nor, but since he had the temerity to live we're going to execute him now. That's justice.
Infinite Sheldon You're my new hero on youtube.
Did he dry hump his table as well?!
Eh sort of... Gaius refused to sign death sentences until he literally had a gun to his head
I like Odo, but he's acting pretty self-righteous in this scene. I have not watched all episodes of DS9, but if I understand character history correctly, Odo worked for Cardassians, and it was Dukat that appointed him as a security chief, and he got at least 3 innocent mean killed. Yet here he talks as if he has right to judge collaborators. And how come Kira never considered and hated him as she does all collaborator? I can only guess Odo did treat Bajorans fairly. Still, that would mean him he heledp managing situation to be better than it would have been. And Kubus himself is making the argument that his collaboration helped his people to suffer less. Another funny thing is Odo uses that Dukat's claim of Kubus being his Bajoran to imply evidence of guilt, I recall Dukat once mentioned he liked Odo, should Odo consider himself guilty for Bajoran suffering as well?
This actually does come up in another episode. I forget how it's resolved.
The difference is that Odo never sent innocent people to their deaths /except for the 3 Bajorans in that one bombing incident but he didn't realize that they were innocent until after a 2nd bombing occurred/ while Kubus sent innocent people to their deaths by signing them off to be worked to death in mines by the Cardassians.
Kira didn't hate him because he was fair in his judgments and didn't kiss up to the Cardassians like the Bajoran collaborators did.
Being liked by Dukat isn't a crime but the reason Dukat liked Kubus is because he likely kissed up to him and did whatever he said which fed Dukat's ego. In contrast, Dukat liked Odo because Odo had the efficiency of a Cardassian in maintaining order on the station.
Despite the details for those difference, Odo is still judging a guy while he did similar things. Like you said being liked by Dukat isn't a crime, yet Odo is making it sound like it is one here.
Odo's likely been influenced by the Bajorans who he's spent his life around since he regards them as a good people who he sympathizes with so he's undoubtedly picked up some of their opinions on things such as collaborators, different races, politics, etc.
Gee Odo's very early awareness existence is UNDER Cardassians ruling Bajorans and his 'father' didn't really push the unfairness evil of it all but bully torture Odo to PERFORM as a lab rat! It took years for Odo to SEE the injustice going on but he FIRST only helped BAJORANS solve disputes. Odo under Dukat got put into being a station's arbitrator police. It took months and probably realizing after those 3 were executed his work was just adding to the horror BUT ODO BEING FAIR ARBITRATOR SAVED LIVES like KIRA's lying ass who did kill and murder(in selfdefense). Odo's luck the Bajorans got the Cardassians to gve up and sign a treaty and they KEPT ODO AS A FAIR Police of the station. His mistake only We & Odo(now Sisko & Kira) know Odo made mistakes and careless judgements but he DID NOT SIGN REPEATED PAPERS EXECUTING BAJORANS.
RIP Renee Auberjonois
The Fact is the guy should know full well that because of what he did he can never go home to Bajor and shouldn't even want to, if not due to exile imposed by the new government, but out of personal shame or guilt. The fact that he wants to come home and objects to not being allowed to means he genuinely doesn't feel guilt or remorse for the part he played, that he doesn't think he was wrong.
@@ThePoshboy1 At best, he would have been killed. At worst, well, his family could have been involved. Either way, even if he didn't comply, they would have found somebody who would have. And even if there wasn't anybody to sign the meaningless so called legal forms, there would have been more people to work the mines.
Kira is a self righteous terrorist. She killed everybody who she viewed as on the wrong side, even if they had nothing to do with it. Worse, in a later season episode, she was willing to travel back in time to kill her own mother if what Dukat said was true.
I doubt Kubus ever had a good night's sleep in his life after he became a puppet for the Cardassian occupation. Kira, on the other hand, has been seen several times to sleep peacefully.
Either you die a hero or live long enough to become the villain
Anyone remember what episode this scene was from and what season it was.
This dialog reminds me a bit of the one between Justice Robert Jackson and Herrmann Göring at the Nuremberg trials. Especially the part about the signature.
Odo technically worked for the Cardassian occupational government as well
Odo didn't collaborate he would stand up to Dukat and other Cardassians and applied the rule of law fairly, earning the respect of both Cardassians and Bajorans.
Djarra Look, couldn't Odo have killed Dukat and a lot of Cardassian soldiers if he really wanted to, given his ability to shapeshift into various disguises?
It would go against his moral code, besides if a lot of high ranking Cardassians died mysteriously the Central Command would just have slaughterd a couple of million Bajorans in retaliation. Remember they obliterated a moon with over 2m Bajoran slave workers on to send a message after some Legate was killed there.
Djarra I hadn't thought of that, good point
no1reallycaresabout2
And I know its been half a year since your comment, but the proclamation stated it included every Bajoran member. Which doesn't apply to Odo.
Such black and white Boy Scout morals Kira and Odo have.
Which is ironic because they already committed plenty of "black" in their lives. Who should punish them for it?
They weren't punishing anyone. Odo arrested a collaborator who wasn't where he was supposed to be. And, Kira informed Kubus that the Bajoran government had sentenced him to exile.
Ironic that Kira should be the one saying that. I wonder, how many Bajoran women and children did she and the Bajoran resistance kill when they bombed facilities on Bajor that the Cardassians held? By all accounts she should fall on her own sword as well as she probably has a lot of innocent blood on her hands.
Worst yet are the deaths that the Cardies took upon retaliation of innocent Bajorans who had no part of the resistance. It was well regarded to the resistance that they were the ones who controlled the fate of firing squads of the innocent by each act of violence committed against the Cardies. If resistance disbanded and complied, the innocent would not die. Of course, the whole idea of the resistance was to put things to stop by overthrowing the Cardies but they knew full well it would involve many not in the resistance to die. Therefore, the resistance played with the lives of the innocent for their own self-interests. No difference here than Kubus.
How many Bajorans did Kira kill not because they were collaborators, but because they had inadvertently gotten in the way of her objectives? And how would those Bajorans have felt about dying so that the Resistance could score points against their occupiers?
That is certainly a thought that would have occurred to Kubus. A Bajoran terrorist and a Cardassian work camp chief of security are now friends joining forces to sneer at him and *his* moral status.
Liberated peoples have not tended to be understanding of their collaborators under any circumstance, whatever case they may make. So he is unlikely to get much sympathy from anyone else.
This is true. We learned from Dukat that he was ordered to kill a Bajoran civilian on a 1:1 basis for each Cardassian killed by the resistance. The idea was that such a policy would serve as a firewall to stop the resistance from continuing what they were doing. But this clearly did not impact the resistance. Imagine innocent Bajorans not having anything to do with the resistance being pulled out at night and killed all on the hands of the resistance members.
... And yet Odo sent prisoners to Cardassian tribunals, soon learning that it also meant death sentances yet he becomes Kira's lover and popular on Bajor... In real life he would have been just as hated.
Everybody's on their high horse until their family is tortured in front of them
Kubus' defence that he was just following orders and doing what he believed was best for Bajorans is virtually same as defence of almost every single Nazi war criminal that was ever brought to justice. While all that may as well have been true, there still cannot be any excuse for willingly sending people to death. They did it by their own free will and nobody can ever buy into that crap about following orders.
Yes, it's even called the Nuremberg Defense. Still, you have to question what difference it would've made here. Kubus would've been arrested or executed, maybe sent to the mines himself thanks to Dukat's twisted sense of humor, someone else would've gotten his office and they would be the one standing in that cell under Kira's stink-eye. Ultimately, it would've made no difference except another signature and one more dead Bajoran.
@@The_Mighty_Fiction You just proved my whole point. It doesn't make any difference. Kubus' intentions might have been noble, they probably were to at least some extent, but he is still guilty for sending people directly to death. They cannot just blame everything on Dukat and Cardassians and end the discussion there. It is not that easy. If it was then over 90% of Nazi war criminals would escape the gallows just because it was order from someone else which they had to follow. Command responsibility, which Kubus tried to put on Dukat here, cannot be applied. It is not matter of Cardassian occupation here, it is totally different case. This is matter of Bajoran collaborators who did do it all on their own free will. Nobody can convince me that Dukat threatened Kubus with violence every single day when he needed his signature for something. Dukat would have to do absolutely nothing but just sit next to Kubus and making him sign anything he wants.
@@miroslavtomic7038 I wouldn't disagree but the plot of the episode was that Kai Opaka sold out the location of a cell of Resistance fighters, including her own son, in order to save the rest of the valley where they were hiding and Kubus traded this information with Winn in exchange for sanctuary on Bajor. Winn used this information to force Bareil to drop out of the running for Kai to protect Opaka's reputation. Is it better or worse to collaborate in murders with the intention of saving lives other than your own? When does choice or lack thereof start to matter? You could argue many more people indirectly died because of the orders Kubus signed, even if it could've been anyone's signature. Meanwhile, Opaka _explicitly_ collaborated in the infamous massacre of forty three people with information the Cardassians wouldn't have gotten otherwise, for which another man was blamed and took his own life as a result, to save a few thousand people and yet, Kira goes along with the lie to protect her. After all, isn't that the selfsame excuse Kubus and, in fact, Dukat made? "It would've been worse if not for me?" She didn't ask herself if those people wanted to be saved like that, whether they were willing to die before they would give the Resistance up. She chose for them.
Kira later became a collaborator herself.
@@ThePoshboy1 i think they both redeem themselves of this. Odo for being like two years old during the occupation, and Kira for waking up and using her position to revolt.
Who had C-band back in the day?
"This is the left, center, and surround. Don't screw it up!"
RIP Bert Remsen
The situation is not nearly as Black and white. When it concerns being a collaborator there are two sides to it. They are those who collaborate with the Enemy for personal survival for themselves and their loved ones. There are those who collaborate for profit and Gain on the blood of their own people. The greater question that Major Kira should be asking did the former secretary collaborate to save himself and millions of their people or for other reasons??
1/2 You don't always have that option to keep your head low with some police states. Robespierre's France, Hitler's Germany, and hardline communist governments like Lenin & Stalin's USSR, Mao's China, and N Korea It is Ideological state policy to make the whole population collaborators.
Or Cromwell's England
Ive never watched DS9 but am starting to actually enjoy it,is the guy asking the questions the security officer? If not who is he? And who is the Major she is a great actress, she doesn’t overdo it - the anger is well acted
The guy asking questions is Odo, he's head of security of the station. the woman is Major Kira played by Nana Visitor
In highschool, I became friends with a Korean guy who was super friendly and nice. He was actually one of the few people who stood up for me when I was outed as gay and the hazing got a lot worse. I always wondered, though, why the other Koreans at the school seemed to have an intense distaste for him and bullied him. When I asked him our third year, he told me that his family had been collaborators with the Japanese occupation before and during WWII. I guess word had gotten around somehow, maybe amongst the Korean parents or something. I remember feeling really sad when I learned that, especially because I'm Japanese-American--I could only imagine what the other kids must have said about me being his friend. Being raised away from the mainland I was very familiar with the atrocities the empire had committed, but it was the first time I had met someone who was affected by that and wasn't even alive at the time. On top of the direct suffering the empire had caused, it had created social fractures that would take generations to heal. I think that's wonderful about Star Trek, that everybody watching it brings their own experiences and memories to complex subjects.
The Japanese occupation weighed heavily on our people...I just hope our people find peace and forgiveness toward the Japanese some day.
It's a tricky question, on one had he really isn't a "bad" guy, he didn't hurt others because of ambition just to keep himself safe and if he hadn't done it someone else would have but at the same time he did help perpetuate the system that kept his people oppressed, if every collaborator(or even most) refused to work for the cardassians then that system couldn't work.
It was a devil's deal; sign the first work order, or be directly responsible for killing his entire family. And every time after that, the next would have been easier. Costing less of his soul to do each and every time.
It is easy for someone with nothing left to lose to fight. It isn't the same for a person with everything left to lose.
I mean, the collaborator had no choice but to sign those documents.
I do feel bad for this old man
Don't feel too bad. He was eventually granted sanctuary.
A lot of DNR and LPR are going to find themselves in this position.
To be fair with his reputation he would be lucky to survive a day on Bajor anyway before somebody did him in.
I expect Kira would have been happy to string him up herself.
DS9 was the greatest of the Treks.
It had Worf. It had Sisko. It had this. TNG and Voyager had moral questions - but this really gave us so much more.
Especially for a low-budget sci-fi show in the late 90s, the acting is just... amazing. These actors were robbed of awards.
It's not about the honor of the dead. It's about justice, balance.
This vid prompted me to do some searching. I remember a fictional short story of a WW2 German general who had a choice of surrendering to the Allies or fighting to the last man according to Hitler's orders. His wife was being held under house arrest...a glorified hostage.
He got a letter from her saying that she was terminally ill. That gave him the courage to to surrender to the oncoming Allies and so spare the lives of his men. In fact, he shot his junior officer who was an agent spying on him to insure his loyalty.
The story ends with 2 scenes...Hitler raving in Berlin that the disloyal general didn't fight to the death for love of der Führer (google for the Donald Duck cartoon...it's a trip)
The other scene is the general's perfectly healthy wife being escorted away in a car by the Gestapo to her execution. It was her way of resisting...like Dietrich Bonhoeffer, in a way.
Haven't found the story yet. But I did find this story about a gal who was a collaborator, and tried to make amends after the war.
www-newyorker-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.newyorker.com/books/page-turner/i-was-a-nazi-and-heres-why/amp?amp_js_v=a2&_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQCKAE%3D#aoh=15692561353346&csi=1&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&_tf=From%20%251%24s
what episode was this from agian.
Hot take: If this is the common sentiment on Bajor to collaborators, then Kira did Kubus a kindness by not allowing him to go back.
Kira didn't really do anything. She simply explained that Kubus was barred from returning to Bajor, by Bajoran law. Given what she said ("I think you got off too easy"), I think her preference for those like him would have either been prison or death.
Gotta wonder about spots 1, 2, & 3.
I disagree with Kira wholeheartedly here. Supporting the occupation is one thing, but the Cardiassians committed mass genocide against the Bajorans. Asking another one not to sign work orders, to literally give up his life and thus be added to those statistics, is no better than signing them and having another die. If he stopped signing, the Cardassians would have just made someone else do it.
Trading a life for a life, with the only difference being some sense of "honor," is stupid. "Die pointlessly so I'll feel better about all the other dead people" is not a cause to fight for--it's just a way for Kira to feel better about herself--and if it weren't for pressure from the Federation, the Cardassians could well have killed every last Bajoran. In a way, by performing his duties and preventing the successor at his job from having to make the same choice until the Federation came certainly saved his life and may have saved more lives if the Cardassians would have killed him AND other people for his refusal (which it seems like they'd do without a thought. For example, later in the episode, we find that Kai Opaka "collaborated" with the Cardassians and was responsible for killing 43 Bajorans to save 1,200 of them. Kubus's decision to work with them was not as Kira makes it out to be).
But, you know. "Life" goes on, as crappy as it is, during occupations, and it's not tenable for everyone to fight. Food still has to reach the tables, and pacifying ruthless overlords might prevent them from killing elsewhere. But for Kira, at this time, it was black and white. Reality never is.
But the collaboration with Vedek Winn proves he was a selfish man who only looked out for himself and not his people.
He only desired to return home because he was getting old and his health was failing.
If he loved his people as much a he claimed, he would have tried to return home much earlier than he did.
Regardless of whether or not he did what he did to save his people, he was still a selfish man at heart.
He willingly left with the Cardassians, he wasn't forced to do so, he chose to do so.
"But the collaboration with Vedek Winn proves he was a selfish man who only looked out for himself and not his people."
It doesn't prove he was "selfish," and so what if he was? There's nothing virtuous about accepting a punishment (exile) that you don't think is fair. All it "proves" is that he wanted something and thought other people were wrong to deny it to him. Selfishness is in the eye of the beholder, anyway, and relies on drawn lines.
"He only desired to return home because he was getting old and his health was failing. If he loved his people as much a he claimed, he would have tried to return home much earlier than he did."
I imagine he wanted to return home long before then but didn't want to risk it, regardless of what he thought of himself. Given the disposition of many Bajorans, Kira included, it's understandable that fear for his life and fear of confrontation might have outweighed the (non-existent) benefits of trying to return; instead, he chose to live with sadness and grief for what he'd lost until he thought he could actually have a chance at returning.
"Regardless of whether or not he did what he did to save his people, he was still a selfish man at heart.
He willingly left with the Cardassians, he wasn't forced to do so, he chose to do so."
The Ilvian Proclamation exiled every Bajoran who worked for the occupational government. He no doubt left because he knew what would happen if he didn't; fear is a powerful force that isn't just motivated by selfishness. People aren't that two-dimensional.
Nothing you are saying is convincing Me that your points are valid.
So with that in mind we should agree to disagree as its clear to Me we aren't going to see eye to eye on this.
Well, yeah. If you come into a discussion with no intention of changing your mind, that tends to happen. My point isn't to say he was right or wrong, but that we can't know and the judgement isn't easy to make.
We obviously don't have enough information about Kubus from the show to make a full character judgement of him. We know a little about his past and what is presented to us; anything outside of that is pure speculation. The likely intent of the show as to show both that Kubus was a villain (he certainly was, to an extent, or at least an accessory to villainy), but also to show that the Bajorans (and Kira especially) are unflinchingly zealous in their convictions, and because of that, they're easily manipulated (See: Kai Winn).
Also, the portrayal of Kira's convictions is somewhat erratic. Compare her opinion of Aamin Marritza in duet; he was part of the occupational government (as a Cardassian), followed orders, etc. He just had the temerity to cry about it in front of Kira, and Kira forgave him. Kubus showed regret, and she didn't. Both had a hand in fostering the death and slavery of Bajorans, but for some reason Kubus was expected to resist and be killed, while Marritza wasn't. Marritza's treatment was more fair; expecting someone to die just to avoid signing work orders is actually pretty monstrous.
That's a theme for much of DS9 -- characters make gray choices that aren't obviously good or evil. Some characters (Kira, Odo, Bashir) are very firm in their convictions, and others (Dax, Sisko, Garak) are less firm to varying degrees, and that's exactly what the writers wanted to explore (exemplified in "In a Pale Moonlight.") They all change, to a degree, later.
But yeah. It's okay to agree to disagree, but I think it's premature (minus arguing on the internet, of course. :)
Oh, and one other thing. The idea that it's acceptable for anyone to demand that SOMEONE ELSE die for a cause (which Kubus likely would have, had he failed to perform his job) is abominable. No one has the right to be make that demand of another person. It is a noble (sometimes) sacrifice, which must be voluntary, that lies entirely with the person who chooses it. Based on Kira's rants, his options were death at the hands of the Cardassians--for no real benefit other than to have another person take his place--or exile at the hands of the Bajorans.
The sad part is, what exactly could he have done? If he didn't sign that paperwork, it's not like the Cardassians would have just left. They would have done it with or without. Likely they'd have just killed him and gotten someone else to do the paperwork.
Watch the movie Schindler's List to see what he could've done, and I'm not talking about actively rescuing thousands of Bajorans, from his position he could have leaked information to the resistance, bribe Cardassians, secretly give money and resources to other Bajorans or aid in other means other than refusing to sign the paperwork, the point is that he didn't, he took the fact that he needs to support the Cardassians and just rolled with it for his own benefit without any attempt to help his people in any way.
And that is why he is a coward and a collaborator.
I would like to see a show set on Bajor for the whole of the Occupation.
It would be like a WW2 spy movie or those in Galactica on the Colonies with the Resistance.
Best of all though, it would be gritty and blunt and it mite not even feel very "Star Trek" but I for one am tired of all the clean and shine of Starfleet, give me some nitty gritty!
Is this the same actor who is head of the Maki?
A message in blood? Kira, I had no idea...
Did Kira ever make amends with Captain Picard. Seeing her on DS9 I never knew if she did or not.
What relation Kira had with Picard? maybe you're confusing her with Ro?
I don't think Kira ever meet Picard. I think you mean Ro, and honestly no one knows. She defected to join the Maquis so it's unlikely.
@@TimberlakeTigerGirl My mistake. Confused with Ro.
Good Thing. Picard would despise Kira. Her cavalier approach to taking lives would disgust him.
This scene reminds me the trial against Gaius Balter in Galactica.
It’s not about what you did, it’s about the reins you must let go of now
I wonder what Kira would think of Gaius Baltar?
History is written by the winners.
what episode is that from
He should have told the Cardassians about bucket excavators and the other fruits of the industrial revolution. Much more efficient than slave miners picking through the dirt with their bare hands! It would have freed Bajor *and* saved Cardassia!
what epeisode is this from
How does such a person show repentance when those on the other side of the bars couldn't care less? Compassion might be difficult, but it is necessary.
What episode is this from?
I’m no lawyer, but “sign this or die” does not sound admissible. If there were a war crimes trial today he may well have been found to be under duress and not held accountable.
Where did you hear "or die"? He never said that.
@@DavidMacDowellBlue With Cardassians, that goes without saying. Bajoran life was cheap to Cardassians during the Occupation. One "No" could result in execution.
@@EmptyMan000 This directly contradicts what we know of the Occupation. There were atrocities, yes, and mass murders, but nowhere has it been stated or implied that refusing to fill out a form--or quitting a bureaucratic job--was a death sentence.
But assume for a moment that WAS how it worked. Then Kubus still had a choice--kill a bunch of innocents or die himself. The moral choice is absolutely clear--die.
Now, if in fact you don't have that degree of moral courage, and you then help murder innocents. When you are caught, and exiled, then you absolutely have zero business complaining about that exile. Exile was a mercy. Kubus was a moral coward. He remains one.
@manco82 yeah the thing is thats no excuse... like i dont know what they should have done. but still.
Odo has a wee semi at the end there
Take that secretary Scooby Doobus
Didn't Odo also collaborate? Kira tolerated and then even fell in love with him.
Poor Kira so naive whether he signed those papers or not the cardassians would have got their miners
Its not that the papers were signed, but that he was so readily willing to sign them. Remember he is Gul Dukats favorite Bajorian. Never a bad mark, never a reprimand, never a punishment. A good little tool that is willing to get their hands bloody for a comfy life for himself and his family and to hell with anyone else. He was a coward and a kiss ass.
@@Rodshark75 He just realised that whether or whether he tried to oppose the cardassians would not make the slightest bit of difference. To oppose them, he would probably just create more unnecessary suffering for his family and himself.
@@accomplisheddiplomat4091 Yes, HE would be willing to make that sacrifice instead of sacrificing the lives of hundreds, perhaps thousands of fellow Bajorians. It isn't about the act itself, it is about the willingness to put himself and his family above others, others suffered so he could be comfy in his position. The fact he was Gul Dukats "favorite Bajorian" pretty much sealed his fate.
@@Rodshark75 though I don't agree with what Kubis didn't. Many ,if not all of us would do the same. If a tyrant said kill two random people or your family gets tortured to death while you watch, you'd do the same
Check out the quote section on this episode's IMDB page.:)
Ppl yapping about Odo working for Dukat IN Terok Nor.
Kubus signed away orders that led to the slave laborers suffering and murders.
Odo was a detective keeping things in order. Both Cardassians and Bajorans respected him. He was fair.
The fact that the Bajorans choose to let them go on exile was rather kind all things considered
And what would've happened if he'd refused? He'd have been arrested or executed, maybe sent to the mines himself, someone else would've gotten his office and their signature would've been on those orders. I'm not saying it was right but ultimately, it would've made no difference except a signature, another dead Bajoran and somebody else standing in that cell under Kira's stink-eye.
It's amazing how freedom fighters and those oppressed turn into tyrants or the very thing they claim to fight. Makes you really think about the real motives and the kinds of people revolutions put into power. Kubus really didn't have a choice in that whole thing, work with the Cardassians or end up in the work camps if you are lucky or your family does. No matter his choice the deaths would have happen either way so he is punished for a moot choice that just saved him from one kind of torture only to drop him into another. Life is cruel and rarely if ever fair even in fiction.
Doctor Who made that point when the 12th Doctor asked the rebel leader what she was going to do the day someone like her arises to which she replied that she would kill them.
He never argues he would have been killed--why do you? You're making an assumption. And nearly all of Kira's family was slaughtered by the Cardassians. It is amazing she grew to see them as individuals at all after a trauma like that.
@@DavidMacDowellBlue Why would they allow an insubordinate politician to go unpunished? The occupation in and of itself shows their lack of care for Bajorans wellbeing, they'd have no reason to suddenly care for him like he was one of their own (not that that would be much better love tbf)
@@MB-sq7yn He really had no choice, he is not a SS officer, his a random french guy force to sign the death of innocents, if he refuses, they will shoot and kill his family, his friends, his lover then torture him until he screams for death. Really not a big choice in that matter is there? It is easy to say "I WOULD NEVER DO IT!!" when in reality if they offer you the same god damn deal everyone would take it.
Edit: not counting he was just a name, he was not really one signing, just a name they used, which makes it even worse, he was just a guy who was force to kill his brothers and sisters and if he refused, well there another worker who will be happy to replace him.
@@Fourtytwo4242 No actually many people didn't take such an offer, enough in fact to form things like resistance cells to try and combat the occupation. "Just following orders" was a phrase that explicitly didn't work as a defense for being part of the holocaust.
A politician who answers 'yes/no' questions with 'yes/no' answers, doesn't lie and doesn't spin the issues? Never saw one yet.
It seems to me that Kubus was in a unfair situation no matter how you look at it. If he refused to sign those papers, his name would had no doubt of ended up on that list and then they'd just have someone else to sign them. Essentially it was a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation. And in the end, well the Bajorans needed some one to take their anger out on, so him and the other "collaborators" a.k.a people who just doing what they could in a unspeakably horrible situation.
Reminds me of the trail of Gaius Baltar. They wanted to execute him for being puppet president while the Cylons had a gun against his head.
Wasn't Odo a collaborator though?
From the episode "A Man Alone"
QUARK
Nobody knows him like I know him. Let me tell you something -- he's an ill-tempered, over-bearing crosspatch. But he was no Cardassian collaborator. And he's no killer.
@@ff3player But didn't Odo collaborate with the Cardassians with the brutal occupation of Bajor?
@@Overonator No he didn't he may have worked for the Cardassians but Odo was considered neutral to both Bajoran and Cardassian.
@@ff3player But isn't being neutral when someone is under occupation, isn't that some degree of collaboration?
@@Overonator
From the episode "Things Past"
DAX
What was it the Moderator said?
(remembering)
"You may have worked for the Cardassians, but your only master was Justice."
Love Major Kira she is totally awesome just like Odo. They make an adorable couple.
Mavis BeiFong They also made an incredible team as well.
You can say that again Scott Fetterman i wish they got together though.
They're a couple of self-righteous hypocrites. No doubt why they ended up together
@@EmptyMan000 How do you see that?
@@EmptyMan000 How is Kira a hypocrite? She didn't collaborate with the occupiers.
May the founders forgive him.
why does Kubus sound like Hawkeye from MASH.
Doesn't sound like him at all
A Bajoran 'capo'?
Why did he do it? Did he really think what he was doing was going to make the whole situation on bajor better, did he even see what was really going on? At least dukat was actually on DS9 where allot of bad shit was happening, granted he didnt care but atleast he could see what was happening unlike kubus. Not that im defending kubus but didn’t they let Ibudon go free even though he was a smuggler who gouged his own people even if they were in need of medical supplies. While serving as chief of security on Terok Nor, Constable Odo once saw Ibudan let a child die when the parents couldn't afford the drug that would have saved her life. Despite this, some Bajorans actually considered him a hero. He even paid off cardassian officials to look the other way, I don’t know if its mentioned anywhere but I bet he did since others like him usually did.
"And that's why you can never be allowed to set foot on Bajor again. Because if you do, it would dishonor the memory of every person you sentenced to death."
Her summation is just, succinct, and devastating.
she also said exile of the collaborators on a list made up "you got off easy" I don't know about you, but to me that sounds like they should've been executed either by the Bajoran government or a mob
@@DantesonofSparda85 Just imagine the sick and twisted dreams that Bajoran Freedom Fighters must have clung to. Just TRY to envision the sadistic plans for top collaborator #3 that some angsty 13 year olds, coated in the blood of friends and enemies alike, starved, scared, and too stressed to think straight, dreamed up for Kubus as they hid in hills like animals. The Federation probably had to evacuate the "government officials" after #'s 1, 2 & 3 were found, having been subjected to literally the worst tortures throughout Bajoran History. The Bajoran "Provisional Government" probably had to make up some schpeel about how "We have chosen to elect mercy towards our enemies, not because they deserve it, but because WE deserve it. All Collaborators have been forced off of Bajor, may they return to their Cardassian Masters where they belong." After god-like transporter technology and SEVERAL Picard speeches made it clear that the Federation will NOT tolerate the ethnic cleansing of all; Cardassians, Cardassian Sympathizers, Members of Governments ALLIED to Cardassia, Establishments that served Cardassians, Reptoid species that kinda resemble Cardassians, and basically everyone else who didn't pick up a phaser.
if he didnt 'sentence them to death' then he himself - and his family - would have been killed or been on one of those lists that theyd have made some other bajoran sign. with or without him the occupation would have kept going. he had no choice but to do it, unless he was a bloody masochist who wanted to die. and you have to remember, not everyone is brave or strong enough to be a resistance fighter.
this whole 'collaborators are evil, all of them, no exceptions, full stop.' rule also falls apart if you decide to question by how much a person collaborated. this one man was forced to send bajorans off to a labour camp else he himself would go. hes a collaborator? ok, send him off to jail! this other bajoran was working as a local official overseeing local laws and was ordered to arrest crime-committing countrymen. hes a collaborator? kinda, since he coulda let the guys off, either way send him off to jail! this third bajoran ran a business that the cardassians used to visit on occasion and bought things from him. hes a collaborator? not really? he could have decided not to serve them, or purposefully charged them more, or even ruined the products, send him off to jail! this last bajoran grew food that the cardassians took to feed themselves. hes a collaborator? no? but he kept the occupying enemy well fed and nurtured. hes clearly guilty, send him off to jail!
you see the problem? if you decide to rule by the logic of 'they helped them, so they are as guilty as them!' then you run into a whole box of issues, and if you decide to pick and choose then that makes you a hypocrite for allowing one mans collaboration to go fine but another ones to go off scot free. and if you decide all are guilty then youre telling a farmer hes as bad a sinner as the butcher of galotep simply because he made wheat for bread that cardassians ate. collaborators were in no-win situations, and youll be in one too if you try and punish them for it.
I think about a scene from Moore's BSG, where Baltar is forced to sign an execution order at literal gunpoint. He was definitely shitty and ineffective as a leader prior to that, but man, it's harrowing seeing the flipside of that regardless.
Is anyone else reminded of BSG and the trial of Gaius Baltar and Apollo's "We aren't a civilization... we're a gang" speech?
BSG handled this subject the worst of any show in history. Baltar was evil, period. He actively worked against humanity the entire show, and just to selfishly cover his ass and not admit what he did in episode 1 which really wasn't his fault at the time. He could have come clean and begged for mercy, but he just lies, sets up Adama and Kane to be killed and give the cylon bitch a nuclear bomb to eradicate even more humans....
It would be better for Kubus to stay away from Bajor for his own safety. He almost got lynched on DS9 had it not been for Odo. Down on Bajor I very much doubt that police or any kind of authority would do anything to protect him from being lynched if he was recognised. Plus, by the time of this scene, you can bet that the word about his arrival has already reached Bajor and they were waiting for him.
You're forgetting Kai Winn's forces. They would have protected him for the potential political benefits it would gain her later.
@@Archedgar But that would reveal the entire plot to the public. That would not be good for Kai Winn for sure. She would have to keep his presence on Bajor a total secret from everybody.
the government approved, not the person. remember to always use the bureaucracy as your tool and never admit to anything. the society is at guilt, the government is at guilt, I merely did what I was ordered, and so on and so forth. it works.
For people without a conscious, yes it works.
I MAY HAVE SHARTED BECAUSE HE SAID LEE ACHYE SCHON
An old man that made numerous sacrifices for the sake of Bajor, and they won't even let him die in peace. Most of the Bajorans in the provisional government were only there as a means of protecting their fellow Bajorans from a purely Cardassian controlled government.