I miss episodic series. It was nice to have something to return to watch. I’m so bored with these 10 part super movies filled with bilge and bad writing and pacing.
Nothing Sisko did was as cold, reptilian and formulaic as what Janeway did to Tuvix. Her lead argument (at long last) was eventually that she had the opportunity and 2 was better than 1 on a lifeboat. That was it. She stared at the man as he died, confident that the life she killed was worth the two she saved, because it would help bring them all back to Earth. I put this episode next to Picard's Borg abduction and O'Brien's long stint in mental prison as things that canonically should have taken whole seasons to psychologically recover from. They should have been significant permanent scars that defined them as characters. Instead they were throwaways because... hey, gotta make episodes! Gotta get eyes on the content! Even in the 90s this was reality.
@@designatedpiledriver8216 They died in an accident. By sheer random chance, their 2 sets of DNA were combined into a new sentient being. The sentient being proved self-sustaining and capable of incorporating both sets of experience into it's own. The decision to kill it rolled back all of the ethics canon established by TNG, and frankly, none of the stupid hacks at VOY had the right or the brainpower to pull that off. The problem in-universe was he was ugly and he scared the crew, also Janeway needed her Vulcan Mentat Navigator back. Tuvix was already a better cook than Neelix so that wasn't an issue but the Neelix half muddled his concentration so that he couldn't replace Tuvok at ops. As if there weren't other ops officers... The problem IRL was this is a weekly show, the fun is over and they needed to reset and give the two actors their jobs back. It was a colossal decision that the lazy-ass writers on VOY made and then abandoned like it was nothing. Their writers always sucked.
That is a tough ethical dilemma. On one hand, you get Tuvok back. On the other, you get Neelix back as well. Boy, I don’t envy Janeway in this situation.
It's not a dilemma at all imo. In an event outside of their control or will, a new individual with an inherent right to life was created. In an event totally within their control and will, Janeway ended that life. That's immoral. Tuvok and Neelix's lives were lost by accident. Refraining from undoing that accident is not murder, nor is it immoral in any way. Tuvix's life was ended deliberately, consciously, and coldly. That this action restored Tuvok and Neelix has no bearing on the immorality of such an act.
@Taramafor Haikido It is a dilemma if we take morality out of the equation. With morality in the equation, someone was murdered to undo an accident. Since there there can be no moral justification for such an act, there was no dilemma, only the illusion of one. The episode is as you said, an expose of hypocrisy. The episode attempted to put Janeway and the crew in an impossible ethical quandary, but what happened on screen was a only a moral failing so senseless as to be shocking. Picard wouldn't murder a Borg to save countless lives because it had developed a sense of individuality. Picard knew that saving human lives means nothing if we give up our humanity in the process. Janeway, on the other hand, threw her humanity out the nearest airlock and murdered an individual to bring back two of her pals. Really disappointing.
@Taramafor Haikido It's not a dilemma. Look, suppose we change the plot and remove the whole transporter nonsense. Some innocent alien's body parts are needed to restore Tuvok and Neelix to life. So Janeway murders the innocent alien and saves her two friends. Would anyone be discussing what a moral dilemma it was? No, everyone would say it was murder plain and simple. In principle, that is exactly what happens in this episode. The transporter stuff is just a gimmick to keep things "clean". This was murder plain and simple. This was really the most disgusting episode of TV I've ever watched because it tries to turn something that is plain evil into some kind of moral quandary. Deceptive and disgusting. Ruined Star Trek for me.
Imagine if, when they stepped into sick bay, the Doctor would have informed Janeway that unfortunately, he miscalculated and that the separation procedure was no longer possible (not a bluff, he really miscalculated).... "I see... Well... OK... Back to your post then Mr. Tuvix! ... No hard feelings right?"
Possibly, but I think Janeway would have saw through it with suspicion and have taken extra efforts on the doctor's programming. For example, we knew later that his ethical subroutines could be isolated and disabled so he'd become an unhindered doc.
I have to say though, the casting, makeup, and production department hit the nail on the head in Tuvix. The guy literally looks like what would happen if you melded Tuvok and Neelix together.
@@sophieschollsreinkarnation5078 What interview did Kate Mulgrew say this? They have had at least an acknowledgement of his existence! Only Naomi Wildman even acknowledged his existence when speaking to her Telaxian friend, Neelix's future stepson! I think his name was 'Brax'!?
Picard: "I refuse to have this question solved by simple arithmetic!" Janeway: "I'll kill one crew member but we'll get two back alive. It is simple arithmetic!"
That can be a noble sentiment when expressed by a volunteer, but it is also an all too easy justification for murder when imposed on the inconvenient. Imagine how that scene in Star Trek II would have played out if it was Kirk saying that line after shoving Spock into the dilithium reactor chamber.
I imagine that Neelix's lungs were infected with the Phage by then and were useless as they had no way to kill off the Phage in the lungs. They should've said that rather then have it so Janeway opts to let Neelix die just because she wants to feel better about herself morally by not killing a being whose killed innocent people just to continue living. Janeway was erratic and annoying.
@@girlgarde I don't remember the Phage being mentioned in that episode but either way Janeway made her decision based on not wanting to kill the creature killing Neelix, which makes her seem very annoying I agree.
Janeway: We must sacrifice one life to save two, sorry Tuvix **A few Seasons later** Icheb's Parents: We need to let out son die in order to save our civilisation. If we don't do this, the Borg will destroy us all. Janeway: How dare you sacrifice one life to save thousands?!
@@RobertRedway These were people who didn't even understand that an ensign is supposed to make lieutenant. Expecting competent writing from them might be unrealistic.
@@stovepip And then what do you do when the blue option fails and he says "no" anyway? Do you sacrifice him to recover Neelix and Tuvok? Or do you sacrifice _them_ when you could have saved them but _chose not to_ in order to keep _him?_ Remember: _he_ at least got to beg her not to sacrifice him for them. _They_ never even _got the chance_ to beg her not to sacrifice _them_ for _him._ So what do you do in this situation when the "blue space Jesus" option fails? I don't think even Full Paragon Shepard has an easy answer for that one ...
Paragon Option "star fleet was founded to seek out new life, well there it sits!" Renegade Option "We're doing this procedure. I want Tuvok and Neelix back, you're just a mistake." neutral option: "We should take him back to Star Fleet and let the bureaucrats argue over his rights"
@@Gauntlet1212 I wasn't talking about "morality". "Morality" is an opinion and judgement, and is subjective. It is determined by emotional and cultural influences. My argument was logical.
The fact not one crew member stood up for Tuvix was unsettling. They all stared at him with their cold eyes, dead to his pleading. It wasn't just Janeway that was at fault. It was horrible seeing him frog marched to his death. At least Doc stood by his principles.
This was a really disturbing episode. Janeway clearly is doing this because she is Tuvok’s friend. Picard would have argued that Tuvix had as much of a right to live as anyone else. Picard always stuck to his guns. He even spared Hugh from becoming a weapon of genocide to stop the Borg. Sisko probably would have done what Janeway did, as would have Kirk. The episode end too quicly after they bring back Tuvok and Neelix. We dont see anyone struggle after the choice is made
She was saving Tuvok from a living hell. Can you imagine that walking lump of mediocrity becoming a part of you, especially as a Vulcan? The best episode of Voyager was the penultimate. They dropped Nelix off on a Delta Quad asteroid, never to be seen again.
Most of the Voyager episodes lacked an epilog. They just ended abruptly where TNG always had Picard or other character who reflected on the events that transpired.
James Barrera And in no place was that more evident than in “Endgame”. Damn shows just ends with Voyager approaching Earth. I get that it was the whole point of the series to return home, but there felt like so much unfinished business with the crew.
Q laughing, "And then I made them believe their puny transporter could take them apart again! Humans will believe anything if it involves a transporter."
I just watched this episode for the first time last night. Tuvix's plea to live crushed my soul. He looks to his newly made friends only to find distance and drifting gazes, and then sitting with that pain he forgives them for ending his life. This episode pull me deep into the void. MY GOD. How could anyone make the "right" decision in this situation?
You would have to make it look like an accident. Then captain makes a call on the intercom. "Crew, we had an accident, today. Tuvix is gone. They were accidentally separated back into Tuvok and Neelix. The doctor seems to have confused his chart with another crewmember's in the medical bay. We will have a memorial, tonight, while we play Tuvix's first album, 'Teleported Togyther.'" - Janeway.
@@nearestyoutube he played "Ghrath" in the episode "Storm Front" of the Captain Archer Enterprise series. Wikipedia says he is best known for playing Mr. Morgan, Yankees co-worker of the character George Costanza in the series Seinfeld.
Well we can assume a period of time has passed between this episode and the next. It’s not like the next episode happens the very next day. I would imagine that, off-screen, some mourning was done and perhaps a proper funeral.
What's more amazing is Naomi Wildman's blasé, dismissive reference to him in the last couple episodes of VOY. "You don't think I could make up a story like that, do you?" Kinda meta if you take it as a self-referential jab at how casually his life was brushed aside both during and after the episode.
It's not amazing that Tuvok and Neelix seemed to forget it by next episode. They were embarrassed as hell about it. It's like two heterosexual guys who get drunk and engage in sexual activity. Come morning, neither one will ever mention it again.
Now that I think about it, this would have been a GREAT opportunity for growth with the Tom Paris character. To stand up on the bridge scene, go on record objecting to these actions in the strongest sense, and have a speech about knowing what its like to be undervalued or thought little of because of past mistakes, and yet here is a person, Tuvix, who is getting worse treatment on an order of magnitude dwarfing anything Paris dealt with (deservedly or not), being ordered to let their life and existence be terminated because the Brass on the ship doesn't want to have to adapt at all, like they didn't do so already because of the whole Caretaker thing. If it were a sticking point for Paris going forward, it might have made him a more well rounded and better character.
Nah, just give him one more flyboy episode so we can go home early. You have a good point. I don't dislike Voyager that much as others but I have to say the writing is not the strongest part of the show.
@@Zodroo_Tint I enjoyed the series better than most, too. The writing was hit or miss. It seemed the most esoteric, and fragmented Star Trek series, imo. They relied on MacGuffins way too often.
It has nothing to do with adapting to a situation. People always say how it was to essentially kill tuvix but what about tuvok and neelix? What about their lives? They have have developed much deeper connections and relationships than tuvix has. By keeping him alive you're keeping them dead.
@@RaymondJonesrejlive if they also remembered being Tuvix, they would also remember how they felt being betrayed and executed by their crewmates. That’s gotta change some things.
There really should have been a follow-up episode to this. They left us all on a cliff with this episode and something of this magnitude should have had a second part to it.
The Transporter is the one most overused Deus Ex Device in all of Star Trek, when you combine everything it ever did... and instead of an accident you make it a feature it covers: - cloning people with memory intact (Thomas Riker!) - merging people (Tuvix) - resetting DNA to the last backup inside the Buffer (Dr. Pulaski) - it is literally the fountain of youth (Rascals) and if you can keep resetting yourself to a younger age, just do that everytime you transport anybody you just never grow old, never get sick. - it acts as long term suspended animation (Scotty) - you can travel through time with it (that DS9 episode with the Bell Riots) just need some Chroniton particles, those aren't so hard to get in Trek. - you can jump between alternate Universes (every Mirror Universe Episode) - Khan could even beam from Earth all the way to Quonos/Khronos (or however you want to spell it) - Spock managed to beam JJ-Kirk and JJ-Scotty on a Starship flying at WARP (actively bending space around it!) that was clearly outside of sensor range... and i'm sure i forgot one or two fantastic things they did with it. ... And now you want to tell me, each time some outlier accident like this happened it was a random "one off", they just ignored it and moved on, there is no army of Scientists standing by at the Daystrom Institute that are going to try to replicate these accidents to the point where they can reliably be turned into standard features of the next upgraded Transporter Pad version? Well ...bullshit! Those would ALL be standard features by the time of Star Trek Picard. Picard getting old wouldn't be a Topic because he'd be running around as a 25 year old! Data would not think of death as being part of the human condition if Humans lived forever just by using public transporters, so he would not have a reason to request his own shutdown. And when YOU decide you had enough of life and want to grow old and die, you just change your transporter profile settings.
The transporter is, in and of itself, an overpowered mechanism. Being able to reduce people to energy, then reform every atom in them to perfectly recreate their bodies and their lives, their clothing, their weapons or gear, etc. millions of miles away. I mean, that is a crazy thing really.
@@TheHylden in TPOST it's postulated that transfering data would be immensely more efficient than the actual atoms, you inherently step onto a kill-pad everytime. The person on the other end is a copy of you Heisenberg principle be damned.
In the unedited version, Janeway grabs an axe and chops him in half then orders the doctor to sew up the wounds. That scene is hard to find on the DVD though.
Imagine how much more interesting Voyager would be with Tuvix. Just the thought of them doing something so bold and "exchanging" two original regulars for a single new one, it would be so unexpected. A love both Tuvok and Neelix, and the actors who played them, but this would be an incredible journey.
That would've been great. Imagine the actor for Neelix coming on as a new crew member an episode or 2 down the line. Both actors would basically get a chance to really show their range. Of course, if the writers were more competent, from this point onward, they could've done something to make Tuvix have had some kind of impact, even if it was *only* for Neelix and Tuvok
@@InfernosReaper Would've just preferred the issue to have haunt Janeway upon arrival back to Earth, with Starfleet security greeting the crew and then saying, "Captain Janeway, you are being placed under arrest for the murder of Tuvix, a sentient being"
Garret Wang and Robert Duncan McNeil reviewed this episode and were pretty shaken, like many of us. They even discussed if this episode did hurt the character of Janeway because of her actions. McNeil remembers that during filming Kate Mulgrew was worried about the episode and what it meant for her character. I understand what the writers tried to do, but it was out of character for Star Trek itself, because it is about the exploration of the unknown and not acting on short term interests, but on long term interest and doing the right thing, even if it makes things more difficult. Trek is about taking the high road, the more difficult but right path. In this episode they acted the opposite.
This is not a dilemma for Starfleet. Everytime someone is teleported, that person is murdered and a new person is created. Humans in Star Trek have long understood this and come to terms with it. What is stupid is that they didn't just load Tuvok and Neelix from the the teleporter buffer and let Tuvix live. It should be a matter of energy cost, nothing else. Teleporters creating more than one person out of the same buffered memory is not unheard of.
And only minutes later they made a joke out of Dr Mccoy not wanted to step into a transporter which had been a recurring theme from the original series even though it had just turned two people into goo.
@@2bituser569 Come on dude. Icheb's eye was bad but don't pretend like it was the only gorey moment in Trek. Did you even watch Wrath of Khan? That ear worm stuff was way worse than what STP pulled. And I'd argue the crewmen being turned into cubes then crushed in front of Kirk is still the worst death in all of Star Trek. Your hate for STP isn't an excuse to just pretend like the entire history of Star Trek never existed just so you can get another jab in at a bad show.
Did you recognize the "scream" during the separation? the sound is taken from the first star trek movie, when due to a transporter accident, people are transported badly and have a horrible death
@@sophieschollsreinkarnation5078 If he was clever, he'd have said "Computer, execute program Tuvix Alpha One." He site to sites to Neelix's ship. The weapons, security grid, and tractor emitters go momentarily offline, and the warp engines are down for several hours. The whole crew watches helplessly as Tuvix escapes.
@@oddish4352 Yes, but I think a big part of Tuvix didn't just want to live as some random person on the run. He wanted to be part of the ship and remain part of the family. Running at the last minute was probably more instinct than anything.
@@PlanetHouston You may be right. Undoubtedly, if he'd wanted to escape, he could have. After all, he had Starfleet tactical knowledge, Maquis tricks, AND Neelix's knowledge of the Quadrant.
I mean....If Tuvok and Neelix didnt die when Tuvix formed.....Did Tuvix really die when they deformed? Like if they reform him then would it be a new Tuvix or just a different version. Is this some dragonball crap right here? Tuvix vs Neelok?
Yes, he did. And for a time, so did they. He ceased to exist. Reforming him would mean he wasn't killed; it would simply be the act of restoring his life
This episode actually came out shortly after Dragonball had introduced the fusion concept in Japan. Not sure if it was inspired by DB or just a coincidence, though.
I remember they'd play VOY returns at night around 11pm years ago and I'd go to sleep still thinking about the moral questions and decisions that were brought up.
I think ppl are missing a key point in this episode. Voyager was a lone ship in the delta quadrant. She didnt have the luxury in being near the federation so she had to bend the rules to survive. She also needed every abled body crew member alive and doing their job. If she allowed him to live then she would lose her security chief plus 2nd in command as well as their guide. She needed to do this as captain to ensure the safety of the ship and rest of the crew.
she literally makes a point not many episodes prior to this one about not bending rules because of their situation and sticking to starfleet protocols as a moral compass on a life of uncertainty
Honestly, this sent chills down my spine when I first watched it. A man begging for his life while his crew mates all stand by, party to his murder. It's horrible to watch.
I thought they’d find a tech way to have their cake and eat it, I thought they’d make a holo-copy of Tuvix and he’d become a new regular character, but when they did this, I genuinely was shocked, and I wasn’t sure I agreed with it, but y’know, hello to the drama of the real world, some people have to make decisions like this every day.
To be fair, they were originally two separate people with their own lives. Tuvac had a wife. How he gonna go back to her as a whole new person. Sure Tuvix had his own personality and everything, but he was clearly not meant to exist. To let him stay would be to essentially take away the right of those two. I bet they didn’t want to be stuck together forever. So while it may seem heartless on janeways part, I get her decision and agree with it
It wouldn't be that crazy all they would need to do is to structure the plant with additional samples to recreate Tuvix as they are separating Tuvok and Neelix
Tuvok and Neelix died in an accident. By pure happenstance someone new was born from this same accident. Tuvok and Neelix' death was the fault of no one. As with most deaths, it is regrettable, but Starfleet makes sure that you know the risks you take when you sign up and everyone willingly agrees to them, knowing their lives may be at stake some day. Yes, it's very tragic for Tuvok's family that he passed away in an accident and that that same accident gave life to someone new that would have felt a strong connection to them, had they ever met, but Tuvix had just as much right to life as any sentient being does. It's fucked up, but this is the way things are now. Fate dealt them a very weird and very shitty hand, but now they have to play it anyway. You don't get a do-over, just because you don't like what you were dealt.
@@Xylarxcode or Tuvix was just what he was, an accident. Like many accidents, the results don’t have to be permanent. As seen that they had the ability to split those two back apart. I get some of y’all want to fight for Tuvix rights. But the needs of the many, outweigh the needs of the few. They’re on a long trip back to Earth. There’s no reason you should give up your tactical officer when there’s obviously no need to. Had there been a way for them to get Tuvac and Neelix out while keeping Tuvix, I’m sure they would have taken it. But giving up two members of your crew that accidentally got fused together, is unacceptable. Clearly they weren’t dead. As they came out just as they normally were. It’s easy to look at someone you have no emotional connection with and be like, oh well they just stuck together now. No, had that been your child wife husband or whatever, you’d immediately be like, can you separate them. Which will forever be the right choice. Tivix is literally a combination of them. He has no family and only has friends that exist because they were already friends with those two. His personality, is them two. Everything is them. Splitting them back apart didn’t eliminate that, it just put it back to the way it was. notice nobody every talked about him again.
@@yoboyrob201 Nobody ever talked about it again because it's a serialized show with a status quo that can only be affected by plots actually relevant to the overarching plot. The fact of the matter is that if Tuvix had not awoken, and were simply a comatose body, then it would be a lot less of a moral quandary. At that point, Tuvix would not be Tuvix, and he would be an 'accident.' But he expressed self-autonomy, expressed sentience, expressed personal interests, emotions, and so much more. He was a _person,_ not an accident, and any other take is inherently shitty. Sometimes in life, we have to make shitty decisions to prevent a shittier end, but this was not one of those times. If Tuvix had _lost_ the memories or capabilities of the component characters, then there would be a valid argument in a desperate survival scenario for trying to unfuse Tuvok and Neelix. But-- 1. Tuvix did _not_ lose any of those memories or capabilities. From his perspective, he'd simply lived two lives up to this point. 2. Neelix was never as essential to the ship's overall function as Tuvok was. He acted as a guide, chef, and provided a unique perspective, all functions Tuvix could easily have fulfilled even while acting as a security officer. 3. It was _not_ a desperate survival scenario. 99% of the time on the ship is socializing, exercising, utilizing the holodeck, or maintenance as they travel through space, going days or weeks without anything interesting happening. The fact of the matter is that this event was incited and allowed to unfold because everyone else *DIDN'T EVEN* _TRY_ *TO GET OVER THEIR FEELS.* Tuvok and Neelix weren't _dead,_ not really, not so long as they tried to simply look at Tuvix as if those individuals had major emotional epiphanies that changed their outlooks somewhat. Instead, the situation is functionally equivalent to this: A person has a major experience that changes their outlook on life, resulting in serious mental and emotional development resulting in being happier and more stable and more emotionally-fulfilled. An old friend decides to tell them _"I liked the way you were before better."_ Except, in this scenario, it's a whole community deciding they liked the way they were before better, and acting in concert to make their life shittier so they go back to how they were. Or erasing their memory of that event that changed them. Or killing them with a clone with older memories. Every one of these situations is unambiguously shitty. Every one of them is functionally equivalent to what happened here. And, for the record, I fucking _would_ accept a loved one being in that situation. That just means that the resultant individual _inherits_ those feelings, and I mourn in private for the potentials and individuality lost. My fucking _feels_ are not a _right_ to _deprive someone else of their autonomy._
Couldn't they keep Tuvix and still have the other two remade? I mean teleporters basically recreate people from atoms/energy... What's stopping them from cloning?
@@audreyandremington5265 Well I mean if you go back to "Relics" Scotty lost the captain of the Jenolan in the transporter buffer due to pattern degradation. The Enterprise was sitting right next to them and you had Scotty and Geordi at the console and they could not get him back. I would say transporters have very specific limits of what they can and cant do. Will/Tom Riker thing was caused by a combination of technology and nature a freak accident that cant be recreated.
I know this is supposed to be a sad, dramatic scene but I can't help but laugh watching Tuvix plead for his life to the blank faces of the Voyager crew, I lose it in particular looking at the face of Tom Paris 🤣🤣🤣🤣
Probably the worst decision that Janeway ever made. And that includes giving a bioweapon to the Borg just so she could take a shortcut through their space.
I agree. Considering the terrifying potential damage she inflicted (indirectly) to countless races she's never even met due to her helping the Borg, she might have just looked for a remote Class-M planet and settled there. Voyager literally FUCKED UP the entire Delta Quadrant.
IIRC there was no good decision for that situation, except insofar as to remove the greater threat. The otherdimensional bioships race were totally trashing the borg and would not have stopped with the borg, but made their intentions clear that they would wipe out the galaxy. It's more Warhammer 40K than Startrek when you think bout it.
It is kind of impressive how quickly the crew jumped on the murder train. Was there really any urgency to bring Tuvok and Neelix back? I wish they would have at least held a damn funeral.
"Starfleet is not an organization that ignores its own regulations when they become inconvenient." Capt. Picard, "Measure of a Man" Tuvix had rights under Federation law, no matter how inconvenient or unfair they may have seemed to the crew in this unique situation. They violated those rights. Another thing that's bad about this situation, is that Janeway ends up sounding like a hypocrite when she later confronts the captain of the _Equinox_
Also let's not forget her speech at the end of the episode, Phage, which clearly shows her hypocrisy: "I can't begin to understand what your people have gone through. They may have found a way to ignore the moral implications of what you are doing, but I have no such luxury. I don't have the freedom to kill you to save another. My culture finds that to be a reprehensible and entirely unacceptable act. If we were closer to home I would lock you up and turn you over to my authorities for trial, but I don't even have that ability here, and I am not prepared to carry you forever in our brig. So I see no other alternative but to let you go."
@@niccolom "Small price to pay" only matters to those who don't have to pay the cost. Starfleet was founded on the principles of sentient rights and discovering what was unknown. Tuvi was a new lifeform with rights under the 8th Article of Federation. Janeway as an officer had as much duty to uphold that law as protect her crew. She didn't just fail her dut, she deliberately ignored it.
I'm not that far into Voyager but this does seem very hypocritical. She yells at people to follow Starfleet rules saying that they keep the crew morally grounded but apparently doesn't care when it's her friend.
It would have been interesting if they had made it a two part, first part deals with Tuvix and his plea for life eventually convincing the crew. Then the second part dealing with a genetic instability developing after awhile because of the merge and ultimately sacrificing his life on his own terms to bring back Tuvok and Neelix so that their genetics aren't lost.
It would have been interesting, yes. But I think by making the merge stable with no perceptible issues, it made the decision that much more ambiguous. Many, and in fact most, shows with stories like this would have introduced a quirk like that to remove the responsibility from the captain/crew. This episode stands out specifically because it chose not to do that.
Make sense to me, I feel like other episodes of Star Trek were dealt with the same way, just a little deus ex machina to make a difficult ethical choice or a choice to violate the prime directive easier to make.
I always thought this was way out of character for the show and one of its weakest written episodes. What would have been better IMO would be if the crew accepted that Tuvix had the right to exist like anyone else (he didn't asked to be created). However, Tuvix could have took it upon himself to sacrifice his life, realising that his existence effectively cost the life of two people. "The needs of the many, out way the needs of the few."
That's pretty good. Or they could have said something like he figured out some strange feeling he had was Tuvok and Neelix yearning to exist again and he couldn't shake it while making him feel guilty.
I disagree. I think that would be too easy a way out of the moral dilemma. I think this brutal ending as it stands is a rather nice change of pace from the usual Voyager.
The needs of the one outweigh the needs of the many. That's the conclusion Kirk came to at the end of ST III and he's right. The the individual's rights supercede that of the mob. Tuvix should have been allowed to live.
What I want to know is, Tuvix was part plant right? Well when the separation was done, you don't see a weird looking plant next to Neelix and Tuvok. So are they both part plant now or...?
This just occured to me, but I wonder if this incident affected the Doctor's later breakdown after it was finally his turn to choose which life to save (in "Latent Image").
Star Trek 1989: "This life form, while ugly, is sacred and deserves to live." Star Trek 1996: "While alive, since ugly, it must die" Star Trek 2020: *Tuvix has eyes ripped out for no reason, then dies* Star Trek 2040: lol u ugly *Captain of Starfleet flag ship bashes Tuvix's brains out with a spiked bat while Tuvix screams in horror, crew members laugh in response*
My back has been hurting really badly today; it's never done this before, so it's quite new to me... Your comment made me laugh so hard that I curled up in pain. It was as if someone had grabbed my spine with a vice, yet I couldn't stop laughing. Horrible pain fueled by overwhelming hilarity... I'm afraid to read your comment again. But I want to. EDIT: I read it again! Mannnnnn! The visual of janeway going at him with the bat, Tom and Harry high fiving in the background, all the while Tuvix is trying to crawl away. You're sick.
Ugly? I don't think Tuvix was supposed to look like some grotesque accident, only like a blend of Tuvok and Neelix. I don't think he was ugly - Neelix is far uglier. And then there's Naomi Wildman. Now that makeup WAS ugly! The poor girl had actual spikes on her forehead!
@@Scripture-Man The logic is that Tuvok and Neelix are technically already dead at that point and Tuvix is not. If it's okay to sacrifice Tuvix to bring them back, is it okay to sacrifice a random crew member? or Tom Paris? After all that's still killing one person to save two. It gets complicated once you start to consider if Tuvok and Neelix are actually dead or not.
@@chrissmeaton7127 The issues aren't as cut and dry as that. Tuvik is a fuse of two beings. Two beings with families and friends. Janeway chose someone she has had a long relationship with instead of the new one. I can respect that choice. If I had to choose between my best friend since college 12+years and one of my dnd friends I been playing with for about 5years, I could choose my best friend without thinking twice. Most people would. The doctor is using his oath as a shield. because he is doing the most harm by giving Janeway the phaser metaphorically. But later down the line, he chooses to save Ensign Kim over another because he had a closer relationship with him and not the other crewman. He go crazy because of it.
@@leeroyjenksDid we all just collectively forget that Tuvix was the result of a symbiotic parasite? He wasn't a new person. Bringing Tuvok and Neelix back was the right thing to do.
@@TNEQLFrom a "greater good" perspective, maybe. From a "right and wrong" perspective... probably not. If Tuvix had argued for his right to live in front of a Federation tribunal, I'm fairly certain they would have affirmed his right to live.
That scene in The Motion Picture that the end of this clip references where Janice Rand says "Oh no, they're forming" is truly one of the most horrifying scenes in all of Trek. I felt so bad for Sonak, killed by the plot so they could get back the cooler Vulcan science officer.
Tuvix was new life, intelligent, self-aware, and conscious. He had as much right to refuse the procedure to be separated as Data did to refuse being dismantled.
@@beayn he wasn't created on purpose; the transporter accident that made him in essence killed Tuvok and Neelix. If they had died in a different way and it turned out that taking an unrelated person's life could bring them back, it would be wrong too.
that's always the way in Star Trek. Only Captains are allowed to think for themselves. Admirals and Commodores get things wrong since they are too far removed from the situation. The logical people get it wrong because they overlook the human-mercy-compassion factor. The doctors get it wrong because they never dabble in the necessary grey areas and cannot see past their hippocratic oath. The crewmembers are expected the follow orders without question because they are just too clueless to make the right decision. but only Janeway did something this truly monstrous with her authority. I love Kate Mulgrew but the writers did Janeway no justice.
This is almost like a horror movie. Imagine begging people you thought were good and principled friends of yours for help from a process that will essentially kill you and all of them stand by and just stare at you unflinchingly.
Should have asked Discovery crew for help I am sure they could have used a EM coil spanner to re-modulate a transporter beam with a black hole. Reversing the laws of physics and allowing Tuvok and Neelix to be extracted from Tuvix without harming him and all 3 live. THAT'S THE POWER OF MATH PEOPLE!
@@WhatsReallyGoingOn84 they even escorted him with security like he was on death row. Plus the doctor refused to push the button to begin, because the doctor felt this wasn't a medical procedure; Janeway herself had to push the button to start.
I disagree. Tuvix was an accidental creation from two lives and they have the ability to save those two lives. Doing nothing = letting two people die. This is a "trolley problem". Do nothing with the train and 5 people die. Flick the switch and 1 person dies. Tuvix is a combination of two noble and selfless minds, I doubt he would have been so selfish as to demand they die while he live. It felt forced for drama.
@@beayn That's because it was. As you said they were both brave and selfless. His Tovok side would've seen the logic in the separation, and Nelix has shown how brave he is in the past as well. So I doubt a mixture of the 2 would've been so cowardly. A much better way to have handle the ending was Janeway fighting with the guilt of the decision. Tuvixs accepting the decision, while trying to assure Janeway was making the right one, as he said goodbye to everyone with dignity.
@@NickyShearer Tuvix had no say in Tuvok and Neelix' deaths. It's more equivalent to a mother and father dying when a baby is born, the baby inheriting both of their life forces, the community discovering this and electing to sacrifice the baby to use the combined life forces to resurrect the two parents. It's up to you whether it's shittier to force this upon someone without the will or capacity to say "I'm me and I'm alive and I deserve to stay alive" ... or to force it upon someone who _can_ say those things, actively _is_ saying those things, and _do it anyway._ In my mind, definite personhood makes it a lot worse.
Okay, cold as I am towards Tuvix, his actor is amazing... which makes the tuned-out faces of the crew all the more hilarious when it cuts back to them.
"As a physician, I can do no harm. That's why I designed this procedure to kill this guy, and made it so easy an untrained captain can do it. But I will not push the button myself!"
There's only 2 options. 2 options. - Let Tuvix live - Save the other 2 "missing" crew members But at no point did anyone ever consider the 3rd option. - Find a way to save Tuvix AND the crewmembers. Certainly there could've been a way? Save his memories? Upload to holodeck? Android? EMH? Researching the transporter and finding a way to split him into 2 while also keeping a copy of him and spitting him back out so he stays alive? None? No one even tried. Just wow.
As soon as he objected it should have been a matter of finding another way. It’s not like they had to do it that very second, and it’s not like functionally the crew couldn’t work without them. Other than Kes. Fuck Kes in this episode.
@@Rhewin Absolutely. I just can't believe how ridiculous this episode was. They could have chosen a better way. They have the technology, I know they could've found a way
Pure logic would dictate as such, standed and without replacement crew the avoidable loss of Bridge crewman is highly illogical. However humans are not creatures of pure logic. We have that great strength and weakness within our minds. Compassion and empathy for another being which desires to live. Can you deny such a being when it pleads for life?
@@MediumRareOpinions It's a "trolley problem" if you look that up. They CAN save two people's lives at the expense of one. Which do you choose? Doing nothing = letting two people die. Flicking the switch and you save two, but one dies. The needs of the many... as the OP said.
Crew member: “Hey, didn’t Kirk and Riker get split one time using a teleporter? Maybe we could save all of them using something like that!” Janeway: “No, he’s too ugly, it had to be done.”
@@misterFutile That's actually bullshit though... The transporter works by converting your body mass to energy, recording an exact copy, and then restoring you. All you have to do to create infinite clones of a person is to have enough matter to replicate them, which is easy, and save the recorded copy. Star Trek just never wanted to deal with this horrific reality of death being essentially reversible... Death not having any weight kills series.
@@misterFutile The accident was unique, but the claim that they couldn't replicate it is bull. But then why would you want THREE Rikers? They can replicate virtually any matter effortlessly. They transporter records your body's entire formation at the molecular level. That is all you need for infinite clones of a person. The fact that they were able to reconstitute Tuvok and Neelix at all proves it.
It's Benthamite utilitarian ethics- she kills one life to restore two. Easy math. For those seeking a position on one of the moral/ethical/philosophical spectra. For those of us in the regular human community, she saves two of her actual crew members from a weird, vaguely horrifying fate induced by yet another technology glitch and restores their normal lives, though they'd need counselling in reality after something this freaky. It's no different than if the transporter had body switched them, or if they had been assimilated by the Borg, which also creates a new lifeform. Or, for those who remember Kes pointing out that ultimately she saved one person because it was her friend and the other was a stranger, which really cut through the crap to the actual human motivation, the same issue applies. Neelix and especially Tuvok are her friends. Tuvix is an alien stranger. Tuvix lives only if there is no way to bring Neelix and Tuvok back.
i was so hoping they would keepo Tuvix, recreate Tuvok and Neelix and Keep Tuvix on, that way, both guys could have had a "brother" on board. imagine exploring that character
I totally agree. And Tuvix could have been even more of a comic relief then Neelix ever was! (Not that I disliked Neelix like some people, but I just never thought he was as good a comic relief as the show needed).
Murder no. Corrected a transporter malfunction, YES. She cannot speak on behalf of Tuvok and Neelix. Just as Tuvix could not speak for them either. The only course of action was to return them back to their original states...
Tuvix absolutely _could_ speak for them, because he _was_ them. He _inherited_ their memories and emotions and perspectives, he simply combined them to make a greater whole. The problem is that nobody else was willing to accept that, because they wanted _their_ versions of those individuals back. The circumstances leading to a person's existence _do not make the resultant person any less of a person._ To reduce someone down to the point of only being a result of an event is inherently shitty and dehumanizing. It's like saying a child born of rape doesn't deserve to live. They had no call in that event. Like, by your logic, it would be fair to sacrifice the child to turn back time and undo the rape.
This is like a reverse example of the Exocons in TNG. They asked if they were willing to die to save the crew, and Data refused to send them into certain death. In the end they willingly went into the reactor and no one drugged them, or forced them into peril
Why SS officers? have you been brain washed by the winners of the war too. in case you didn't know, All the Allie forces also did execusions and several war crimes. not only the axis powers as the history writers tell you...
Tuvix: A studio contract negotiations tactic to merge two characters into one, and preferably have a new third person take their place for little money
@@aurex8937 I didn't like his character all that much, but oddly enough "Jetrel" is one of my favorite Voyager episodes. Then again I kind of felt the same way about Nog in DS9 but that changed completely in the later seasons, especially after "Siege if AR-558" and "It's Only A Paper Moon". And with Troi and the episode "Face of the Enemy"
IKR? Tuvix was a great cook, while Neelix was obsessed with adding spice to everything I know the "bad cook" thing was played for laughs, but there's no way the crew would eat unpleasant food for the next 7 decades
Although Janeway went after Branson for killing lifeforms to get them home and yet she does this to tovix and not lose her command her speech is about saving new life forms in yet she executes want to save her friend
Yeah, but if she pretends it never happened, like all the times she offered Federation tech to aliens (Night, 30 days, etc.) in blatant violation if Starfleet Protocols, and the person she's rebuking doesn't know she's a hypocrite, then that means she's done nothing wrong.
Richard Bransons' Virgin Galactic was a plague on the quadrant, though. (I think you meant Ransom and it's strange they named an antagonist "Ransom" and the actor's name was Savage)
But the outcome is actually not really thought provoking. It's morally wrong on every conceivable level. It's one of the reasons VOY tried to go "dark" a la DS9 but the writers were absolutely unable to write something even remotely intelligent. DS9 did moral dilemmas in a much more clever way.
I've always wondered on this one. You can argue that "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one" .. that old line. So two crewman were lost in the merger. Plus two distinct sets of skills and persons doing two jobs. Losing Tuvix to get back the two was for the betterment of the two saved and the ship as a whole. But, does that honestly justify taking the action? And if as the command of the ship you think that is the proper action, under what circumstances would it not be proper? Again you can look to ST:TNG in the simulation where Troi sends off Holographic Geordi to die to save the ship .. a command choice which StarFleet wants to test commanders for to make sure they WILL make that choice to save the ship. Sacrificing one for the many. IN other words Commanders in Trek are picked because they WILL do this and WILL make this choice, despite any heartache or pangs of guilt. So at what point can this choice go wrong? If some race offered to transport Voyager halfway home but all they had to do was .. oh .. turn over some key person to be sacrificed to the portal gods .. would that be acceptable?
I think it was well handled, though. He was still Neelix and Tuvok, after all. Both men had faced death with courage and honor in the past, so a man who was their combined selves logically would do so as well.
They could have created a secondary image of him in the transporter then materialized him and a split version of the other two. Kinda like in TNG when William Riker finds he had a copy of himself caused by the transporter leaving Thomas Riker.
Both incidents are continuity disasters that aren't in line with how transporters are described to function. Transporters are suppose to break down matter into energy, transport that energy from point a to point b, and then reassemble that same energy back into matter. For the Tuvik or Riker incidents to have occured the way transporters are suppose to function, you'd have to break the laws of Thermodynamics, specifically the law of conservation of energy. The other alternative is that transporters don't function the way they are described, and instead simply scan you, disintegrate you, and then reassemble you from ship power. Which effectively means every time you transport something you are utterly destroying it, which in the case of a biological organism means you are killing it, and then remaking it anew. If this was the case, you could effectively snapshot individuals by simply scanning them and storing it in an archive. Then you could recreate them anytime you wanted, with as many copies as you wanted. Which really makes them replicators, not transporters.
to me its clear, an accident turned 2 people into one. So you revert it. I don't think they even killed tuvix, he just had the illusion to be an individual because of the merge and then was selfish enough to consider his consciousness anything more but a merge of these 2 people.
@@readwithJoey watch the episode, its nice. Basically a teleporter accident merges two people into one because of how teleports disassemble and reassemble you, a glitch made them be re assemble as one person instead of 2. They decide to split him again to get the 2 individuals back.
@@walouinsanityshed yep, if it was a third conscience then janeway's decision was wrong ... if it was a merge of the two consciences then the decision was right ... but how do you know?
@@lucaallemann5941 She was right. Tuvix was litterally the sum of the two, nothing more. Whatever he was doing better was because he had the expert skills of both people and that makes sense but it's because he has two people in him. It's ridiculous to think he is anything new. He had a unique look and personality but in the end it really was just a merge because he created no new memories or new attributes. they all are still tuvok's and nilix's
Unpopular opinion, but I agree with her decision. As difficult as it is, it was an accident that created him, losing two individuals. A deliberate act fixed the accident.
Tuvix: "You all will have to live with this!"
*Entire crew forgets about this incident by the next episode*
Tuvix: :(
poor guy!!!
@@shadowkhan81 let's forget about when Paris evolved into a lizard thing
@@DUDEBroHey and impregnated lizard Janeway. They left their kids. They both will have to live with this!
@@DUDEBroHey We don't talk about that episode.
@@insertanynameyouwant5311 Imagine being weird and shipping Paris and Janeway and then watching that episode.
The Doctor: "This is unethical."
Janeway: "This is an episodic series, and I must protect the status quo."
I miss episodic series. It was nice to have something to return to watch. I’m so bored with these 10 part super movies filled with bilge and bad writing and pacing.
It kind of ruins the story because there’s no real reason you should feel invested when the reset button is smashed every episode
Picard: "I refuse to let simple arithmetic decide questions like that."
Janeway: "2 > 1. Finish him".
Sisko: A senator, a criminal, and Bashir’s respect in exchange for the entire alpha quadrant? Now that’s a heck of a bargain!
Nothing Sisko did was as cold, reptilian and formulaic as what Janeway did to Tuvix. Her lead argument (at long last) was eventually that she had the opportunity and 2 was better than 1 on a lifeboat. That was it. She stared at the man as he died, confident that the life she killed was worth the two she saved, because it would help bring them all back to Earth.
I put this episode next to Picard's Borg abduction and O'Brien's long stint in mental prison as things that canonically should have taken whole seasons to psychologically recover from. They should have been significant permanent scars that defined them as characters. Instead they were throwaways because... hey, gotta make episodes! Gotta get eyes on the content! Even in the 90s this was reality.
You people are weird. What would you tell Tuvok’s family
@@gastonbell108what? So basically tuvok and nelix don’t matter
@@designatedpiledriver8216 They died in an accident. By sheer random chance, their 2 sets of DNA were combined into a new sentient being. The sentient being proved self-sustaining and capable of incorporating both sets of experience into it's own. The decision to kill it rolled back all of the ethics canon established by TNG, and frankly, none of the stupid hacks at VOY had the right or the brainpower to pull that off.
The problem in-universe was he was ugly and he scared the crew, also Janeway needed her Vulcan Mentat Navigator back. Tuvix was already a better cook than Neelix so that wasn't an issue but the Neelix half muddled his concentration so that he couldn't replace Tuvok at ops. As if there weren't other ops officers...
The problem IRL was this is a weekly show, the fun is over and they needed to reset and give the two actors their jobs back.
It was a colossal decision that the lazy-ass writers on VOY made and then abandoned like it was nothing. Their writers always sucked.
That is a tough ethical dilemma. On one hand, you get Tuvok back. On the other, you get Neelix back as well. Boy, I don’t envy Janeway in this situation.
It's not a dilemma at all imo. In an event outside of their control or will, a new individual with an inherent right to life was created. In an event totally within their control and will, Janeway ended that life. That's immoral.
Tuvok and Neelix's lives were lost by accident. Refraining from undoing that accident is not murder, nor is it immoral in any way. Tuvix's life was ended deliberately, consciously, and coldly. That this action restored Tuvok and Neelix has no bearing on the immorality of such an act.
@Taramafor Haikido It is a dilemma if we take morality out of the equation. With morality in the equation, someone was murdered to undo an accident. Since there there can be no moral justification for such an act, there was no dilemma, only the illusion of one.
The episode is as you said, an expose of hypocrisy. The episode attempted to put Janeway and the crew in an impossible ethical quandary, but what happened on screen was a only a moral failing so senseless as to be shocking.
Picard wouldn't murder a Borg to save countless lives because it had developed a sense of individuality. Picard knew that saving human lives means nothing if we give up our humanity in the process. Janeway, on the other hand, threw her humanity out the nearest airlock and murdered an individual to bring back two of her pals. Really disappointing.
@@ryanm7263 Agreed. However, this turned out to be a trend for Janeway. Destroying timelines, people and planets for a couple members of her crew.
@Taramafor Haikido It's not a dilemma. Look, suppose we change the plot and remove the whole transporter nonsense. Some innocent alien's body parts are needed to restore Tuvok and Neelix to life. So Janeway murders the innocent alien and saves her two friends. Would anyone be discussing what a moral dilemma it was? No, everyone would say it was murder plain and simple. In principle, that is exactly what happens in this episode. The transporter stuff is just a gimmick to keep things "clean". This was murder plain and simple. This was really the most disgusting episode of TV I've ever watched because it tries to turn something that is plain evil into some kind of moral quandary. Deceptive and disgusting. Ruined Star Trek for me.
@@ryanm7263 Yeah, this episode ruined Star Trek for me. It still makes me want to throw up.
"To seek out new life, WELL THERE IT SITS!"
"Security to the bridge."
Measure of a man
if she would let Tuvix exist in its form, she had murdered two members of her crew, it was the right decision
harm was done by merging them
That was a good reference, and very pertinent to this situation.
@@falafeldurum2095 But the harm was accidental. The separation, however, was not.
Vary hard to judge decision. I hope i wont have ever make similar.
Tuvix would have lived but Ethan Phillips and Tim Russ have contracts.
Yep. Its unfortunate. He was a superior character and a great actor, but I also wouldn't want to simply seen the other tossed to the curb.
Tuvix was a warning to the cast that they are all expendable.
@@TheJuggtron 😂😂😂😂
@@TheJuggtron lololol
@@jadedoak8868 superior? just got into and finished this series during this event, but I loved both them guys
Imagine if, when they stepped into sick bay, the Doctor would have informed Janeway that unfortunately, he miscalculated and that the separation procedure was no longer possible (not a bluff, he really miscalculated).... "I see... Well... OK... Back to your post then Mr. Tuvix! ... No hard feelings right?"
Possibly, but I think Janeway would have saw through it with suspicion and have taken extra efforts on the doctor's programming. For example, we knew later that his ethical subroutines could be isolated and disabled so he'd become an unhindered doc.
Exactly what happens when they tell people they will be laid off but it doesn’t happen...
He should count himself lucky, he gets to be onboard a cool space ship with a hot robot lady.
So the doctor would have lied?
@@MySamurai77 true
That chilling scream you hear as he gets transported is actually me screaming in horror at the prospect of bringing back Neelix
That scream was not originally there. It's the scream from the transporter accident in The Motion Picture.
Neelix is possibly the most annoying character in the history of ST. Even more so than Wesley….
It's from the motion picture lol but it's still haunting as fuck to this day
IT WAS NOT THERE IN THE SERIES..IT'S ALL FAKE LIKE THIS THREAD HA HA HA
@@Nav3n At least you can tell Wesley to shut up.
I have to say though, the casting, makeup, and production department hit the nail on the head in Tuvix. The guy literally looks like what would happen if you melded Tuvok and Neelix together.
He looked ridiculous. Mulgrew said it was very hard to play those serious scenes with him looking like that.
@@sophieschollsreinkarnation5078 What interview did Kate Mulgrew say this? They have had at least an acknowledgement of his existence! Only Naomi Wildman even acknowledged his existence when speaking to her Telaxian friend, Neelix's future stepson! I think his name was 'Brax'!?
Exactly! If Tuvok got Neelix pregnant, that's what their baby would look like.
@@bl8388 If they created a binary clone of Tuvok & Neelix, he would probably look a little this, probably less so if the clone was a girl
Tom Wright got many of their respective mannerisms right, too.
Picard: "I refuse to have this question solved by simple arithmetic!"
Janeway: "I'll kill one crew member but we'll get two back alive. It is simple arithmetic!"
"The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one."
-Spock
That can be a noble sentiment when expressed by a volunteer, but it is also an all too easy justification for murder when imposed on the inconvenient. Imagine how that scene in Star Trek II would have played out if it was Kirk saying that line after shoving Spock into the dilithium reactor chamber.
@@wesleymarshall3741 Exactly. That shows how short-sighted that approach is in the final sense.
@@JB-1138 well Spock wasn’t the captain, now was he
@@JB-1138 "The needs of the one outweigh the needs of the many" - James T. Kirk
The same Janeway that left Neelix without lungs because she refused to harm the vidian that stole them.
Socialist Future is a helluva show
@@TheLifeOfKane lol realisticlly we will all kill eachother before we even get there.
@@TheLifeOfKane Voyager wasn't the best at the philosophical stuff.
I imagine that Neelix's lungs were infected with the Phage by then and were useless as they had no way to kill off the Phage in the lungs. They should've said that rather then have it so Janeway opts to let Neelix die just because she wants to feel better about herself morally by not killing a being whose killed innocent people just to continue living. Janeway was erratic and annoying.
@@girlgarde I don't remember the Phage being mentioned in that episode but either way Janeway made her decision based on not wanting to kill the creature killing Neelix, which makes her seem very annoying I agree.
Janeway: We must sacrifice one life to save two, sorry Tuvix
**A few Seasons later**
Icheb's Parents: We need to let out son die in order to save our civilisation. If we don't do this, the Borg will destroy us all.
Janeway: How dare you sacrifice one life to save thousands?!
Yes
She learned
@@FullCircleStories And then unlearned it in the finale when she was willing to sacrifice the lives of her crew to save millions
Ha! Good one!
Bad writing. Thats some inconsistent characterization
@@RobertRedway These were people who didn't even understand that an ensign is supposed to make lieutenant. Expecting competent writing from them might be unrealistic.
The only one to show any humanity towards Tuvix in this case was ironically, the Doctor.
Only because he had ethical subroutines
Nitpicking Nerd
Which is based on human ethics of Doc Zimmerman a sf officer and doctor. The rest of the crew’s morality went out the window.
@@NitpickingNerd Too bad Janeway doesn't have those.
@@2bituser569 Zimmerman probably had more free will to make the decisions if he were in place of the doctor, who is programmed to follow orders.
@Isaac Mounce How many people does a viidian need to save to justify "harvesting" a homeless person?
This feels like a Mass Effect dialog option that causes you to reload your last save
Renegade option, paragon option would be talking to him, and ask him to willingly sacrifice himself .
@@stovepip And then what do you do when the blue option fails and he says "no" anyway?
Do you sacrifice him to recover Neelix and Tuvok? Or do you sacrifice _them_ when you could have saved them but _chose not to_ in order to keep _him?_ Remember: _he_ at least got to beg her not to sacrifice him for them. _They_ never even _got the chance_ to beg her not to sacrifice _them_ for _him._
So what do you do in this situation when the "blue space Jesus" option fails? I don't think even Full Paragon Shepard has an easy answer for that one ...
Paragon Option "star fleet was founded to seek out new life, well there it sits!"
Renegade Option "We're doing this procedure. I want Tuvok and Neelix back, you're just a mistake."
neutral option: "We should take him back to Star Fleet and let the bureaucrats argue over his rights"
Meanwhile when Janeway confronted the Vidians: “Sacrificing one life to save another is a reprehensible act”...
So when a parent dies protecting their child, is that bad?
@@oddish4352 I think Janeway meant sacrificing an unwilling life - hence the hypocrisy.
@@Sky14714 Ironic... the only person on the ship who stood up for what was right... was a computer program.
Except this wasn't sacrificing one life to save another, but sacrificing one life to save two other lives.
@@Gauntlet1212 I wasn't talking about "morality". "Morality" is an opinion and judgement, and is subjective. It is determined by emotional and cultural influences. My argument was logical.
The fact not one crew member stood up for Tuvix was unsettling. They all stared at him with their cold eyes, dead to his pleading. It wasn't just Janeway that was at fault. It was horrible seeing him frog marched to his death. At least Doc stood by his principles.
Hey!They where just following zhe orders,ja...
No,but i agree this was a disgusting episode.I do not understand what the writers where thinking.
Bring them back Fk that.
yeah this is why they should all be in prison when they return to the federation
you are wrong... the Doc stood up for him
The good of the many outweighs the good of the few. I suppose it only applys if a male captain does it.
This was a really disturbing episode. Janeway clearly is doing this because she is Tuvok’s friend.
Picard would have argued that Tuvix had as much of a right to live as anyone else. Picard always stuck to his guns. He even spared Hugh from becoming a weapon of genocide to stop the Borg.
Sisko probably would have done what Janeway did, as would have Kirk.
The episode end too quicly after they bring back Tuvok and Neelix. We dont see anyone struggle after the choice is made
She was saving Tuvok from a living hell. Can you imagine that walking lump of mediocrity becoming a part of you, especially as a Vulcan?
The best episode of Voyager was the penultimate. They dropped Nelix off on a Delta Quad asteroid, never to be seen again.
I felt the same wrong when Riker was killing his clone.
Most of the Voyager episodes lacked an epilog. They just ended abruptly where TNG always had Picard or other character who reflected on the events that transpired.
James Barrera
And in no place was that more evident than in “Endgame”. Damn shows just ends with Voyager approaching Earth. I get that it was the whole point of the series to return home, but there felt like so much unfinished business with the crew.
Archer would of knocked him out cold and dragged his ass the the med bay himself
Q laughing, "And then I made them believe their puny transporter could take them apart again! Humans will believe anything if it involves a transporter."
Like the duplicate Ryker who’s totally not a Q in disguise.
Best comment ever, hahahaha
Mwahahaha! Fools!
I just watched this episode for the first time last night. Tuvix's plea to live crushed my soul. He looks to his newly made friends only to find distance and drifting gazes, and then sitting with that pain he forgives them for ending his life. This episode pull me deep into the void. MY GOD. How could anyone make the "right" decision in this situation?
You would have to make it look like an accident. Then captain makes a call on the intercom.
"Crew, we had an accident, today. Tuvix is gone. They were accidentally separated back into Tuvok and Neelix. The doctor seems to have confused his chart with another crewmember's in the medical bay. We will have a memorial, tonight, while we play Tuvix's first album, 'Teleported Togyther.'" - Janeway.
@@bl8388 that's... psychopathic !
@@mushylog So true. Glad no one did that to Tuvix. What Janeway did was jarring enough.
I bet you support abortion
You sat where I sit now, tell me, did you also struggle to sleep?
Amazing acting work by Timethan Phillruss.
Did he go on to star in anything else?
@@nearestyoutube he played "Ghrath" in the episode "Storm Front" of the Captain Archer Enterprise series. Wikipedia says he is best known for playing Mr. Morgan, Yankees co-worker of the character George Costanza in the series Seinfeld.
Amazing how everyone, including Tuvok and Neelix, forgot all about this by the time the next episode aired.
RIP Tuvix.
Star Trek in a nutshell
Well we can assume a period of time has passed between this episode and the next. It’s not like the next episode happens the very next day. I would imagine that, off-screen, some mourning was done and perhaps a proper funeral.
What's more amazing is Naomi Wildman's blasé, dismissive reference to him in the last couple episodes of VOY. "You don't think I could make up a story like that, do you?" Kinda meta if you take it as a self-referential jab at how casually his life was brushed aside both during and after the episode.
It's not amazing that Tuvok and Neelix seemed to forget it by next episode. They were embarrassed as hell about it. It's like two heterosexual guys who get drunk and engage in sexual activity. Come morning, neither one will ever mention it again.
Who's Tuvix?
Now that I think about it, this would have been a GREAT opportunity for growth with the Tom Paris character. To stand up on the bridge scene, go on record objecting to these actions in the strongest sense, and have a speech about knowing what its like to be undervalued or thought little of because of past mistakes, and yet here is a person, Tuvix, who is getting worse treatment on an order of magnitude dwarfing anything Paris dealt with (deservedly or not), being ordered to let their life and existence be terminated because the Brass on the ship doesn't want to have to adapt at all, like they didn't do so already because of the whole Caretaker thing. If it were a sticking point for Paris going forward, it might have made him a more well rounded and better character.
Nah, just give him one more flyboy episode so we can go home early.
You have a good point. I don't dislike Voyager that much as others but I have to say the writing is not the strongest part of the show.
@@Zodroo_Tint I enjoyed the series better than most, too. The writing was hit or miss. It seemed the most esoteric, and fragmented Star Trek series, imo. They relied on MacGuffins way too often.
bravo
It has nothing to do with adapting to a situation. People always say how it was to essentially kill tuvix but what about tuvok and neelix? What about their lives? They have have developed much deeper connections and relationships than tuvix has. By keeping him alive you're keeping them dead.
Indeed, someone should have objected.
They should have had Tuvok and Neelix retain the memories of Tuvix and for the rest of the show they wouldn't look at Janeway the same ever again.
Lol and why they didn't, well never know
People applaud the doctor, but he never mentions Tuvix' bastard ass again
@@TheLifeOfKane They would be grateful
@@RaymondJonesrejlive if they also remembered being Tuvix, they would also remember how they felt being betrayed and executed by their crewmates. That’s gotta change some things.
@@Rhewin True but they would also like their life back and would appreciate the captains decision
oh please, they're probably grateful for the decision
There really should have been a follow-up episode to this. They left us all on a cliff with this episode and something of this magnitude should have had a second part to it.
Well that might be something GOOD writers might have done..... unfortunately we are talking about Voyager writers here...
They could've used the guilt and pain over this choice to deepen Janeway's character so much. Oh well.
Well lower decks did it. It was weird...
The Transporter is the one most overused Deus Ex Device in all of Star Trek, when you combine everything it ever did... and instead of an accident you make it a feature it covers:
- cloning people with memory intact (Thomas Riker!)
- merging people (Tuvix)
- resetting DNA to the last backup inside the Buffer (Dr. Pulaski)
- it is literally the fountain of youth (Rascals) and if you can keep resetting yourself to a younger age, just do that everytime you transport anybody you just never grow old, never get sick.
- it acts as long term suspended animation (Scotty)
- you can travel through time with it (that DS9 episode with the Bell Riots) just need some Chroniton particles, those aren't so hard to get in Trek.
- you can jump between alternate Universes (every Mirror Universe Episode)
- Khan could even beam from Earth all the way to Quonos/Khronos (or however you want to spell it)
- Spock managed to beam JJ-Kirk and JJ-Scotty on a Starship flying at WARP (actively bending space around it!) that was clearly outside of sensor range...
and i'm sure i forgot one or two fantastic things they did with it.
...
And now you want to tell me, each time some outlier accident like this happened it was a random "one off", they just ignored it and moved on, there is no army of Scientists standing by at the Daystrom Institute that are going to try to replicate these accidents to the point where they can reliably be turned into standard features of the next upgraded Transporter Pad version?
Well ...bullshit!
Those would ALL be standard features by the time of Star Trek Picard.
Picard getting old wouldn't be a Topic because he'd be running around as a 25 year old!
Data would not think of death as being part of the human condition if Humans lived forever just by using public transporters, so he would not have a reason to request his own shutdown.
And when YOU decide you had enough of life and want to grow old and die, you just change your transporter profile settings.
And they took the pee out of Bones for not liking them.
Those are just rear circumstances the Transporter is malfunctioned.
The transporter is, in and of itself, an overpowered mechanism. Being able to reduce people to energy, then reform every atom in them to perfectly recreate their bodies and their lives, their clothing, their weapons or gear, etc. millions of miles away. I mean, that is a crazy thing really.
So what you're saying is, I could transport myself into a 20 year old Ahnold Schwarzenegger-esque body?
@@TheHylden in TPOST it's postulated that transfering data would be immensely more efficient than the actual atoms, you inherently step onto a kill-pad everytime. The person on the other end is a copy of you Heisenberg principle be damned.
In the unedited version, Janeway grabs an axe and chops him in half then orders the doctor to sew up the wounds.
That scene is hard to find on the DVD though.
Nah, it's the 24th century. She uses an industrial cutting laser.
She even puts a poncho on which inspired Giancarlo Esposito in Breaking Bad
@@thomasmartin4281 Little known fact: in the original script she threw on a poncho AND was smoking a cigar while swinging that axe.
I don't think it's true....but there is a footage of Picard's on screen suicide. He tells out engage then dies.😊
Imagine how much more interesting Voyager would be with Tuvix. Just the thought of them doing something so bold and "exchanging" two original regulars for a single new one, it would be so unexpected. A love both Tuvok and Neelix, and the actors who played them, but this would be an incredible journey.
That would've been great. Imagine the actor for Neelix coming on as a new crew member an episode or 2 down the line. Both actors would basically get a chance to really show their range.
Of course, if the writers were more competent, from this point onward, they could've done something to make Tuvix have had some kind of impact, even if it was *only* for Neelix and Tuvok
@@InfernosReaper Would've just preferred the issue to have haunt Janeway upon arrival back to Earth, with Starfleet security greeting the crew and then saying, "Captain Janeway, you are being placed under arrest for the murder of Tuvix, a sentient being"
I think they should have regularly mixed and separated the two of them, sometimes having them and sometimes having tuvix
Garret Wang and Robert Duncan McNeil reviewed this episode and were pretty shaken, like many of us. They even discussed if this episode did hurt the character of Janeway because of her actions. McNeil remembers that during filming Kate Mulgrew was worried about the episode and what it meant for her character.
I understand what the writers tried to do, but it was out of character for Star Trek itself, because it is about the exploration of the unknown and not acting on short term interests, but on long term interest and doing the right thing, even if it makes things more difficult. Trek is about taking the high road, the more difficult but right path. In this episode they acted the opposite.
in my head canon, this episode happened in the mirror universe. they should have put chakotay in a goatee to make it clearer though.
This is not a dilemma for Starfleet. Everytime someone is teleported, that person is murdered and a new person is created. Humans in Star Trek have long understood this and come to terms with it. What is stupid is that they didn't just load Tuvok and Neelix from the the teleporter buffer and let Tuvix live. It should be a matter of energy cost, nothing else. Teleporters creating more than one person out of the same buffered memory is not unheard of.
comment of the year!!@@0biwan7
If the producers had been brave enough to make Voyager slowly going the Equinox road this may have been a fitting episode
Should I feel bad that I cracked up at the added TMP transporter death sound effect?
Not sure, but I think it is the only time I ever laughed at that sound effect.
Yes
I don't feel bad one bit, but I seem to be that rare minority that hated Tuvix.
@@rcslyman8929 No. I hated him. I hate all things Neelix.
What was the thing he said before that sound?
God that 1979 TMP squeel is one of the most disturbing sounds in Trek.
Bloody oath. Scary tortured discombobulated scream 😬 makes me want to take a shuttle instead. 👍
They were going to show us what the ended up like I believe but decided it was too damn horror for trek.
TheCormTube
Now trek has Icheb’s eye being horror fit for trek.
And only minutes later they made a joke out of Dr Mccoy not wanted to step into a transporter which had been a recurring theme from the original series even though it had just turned two people into goo.
@@2bituser569 Come on dude. Icheb's eye was bad but don't pretend like it was the only gorey moment in Trek. Did you even watch Wrath of Khan? That ear worm stuff was way worse than what STP pulled. And I'd argue the crewmen being turned into cubes then crushed in front of Kirk is still the worst death in all of Star Trek. Your hate for STP isn't an excuse to just pretend like the entire history of Star Trek never existed just so you can get another jab in at a bad show.
Did you recognize the "scream" during the separation? the sound is taken from the first star trek movie, when due to a transporter accident, people are transported badly and have a horrible death
You've got to love his piss poor attempt at actually escaping 😂😂
If he was clever he would have put a phaser to his head and threatened to kill himself (along with Neelix and Tuvok in the process).
@@sophieschollsreinkarnation5078 If he was clever, he'd have said "Computer, execute program Tuvix Alpha One." He site to sites to Neelix's ship. The weapons, security grid, and tractor emitters go momentarily offline, and the warp engines are down for several hours. The whole crew watches helplessly as Tuvix escapes.
@@oddish4352 Yes, but I think a big part of Tuvix didn't just want to live as some random person on the run. He wanted to be part of the ship and remain part of the family. Running at the last minute was probably more instinct than anything.
@@PlanetHouston You may be right. Undoubtedly, if he'd wanted to escape, he could have. After all, he had Starfleet tactical knowledge, Maquis tricks, AND Neelix's knowledge of the Quadrant.
I was expecting him to say 'computer activte Tuvix escape protocol Beta 1
I mean....If Tuvok and Neelix didnt die when Tuvix formed.....Did Tuvix really die when they deformed? Like if they reform him then would it be a new Tuvix or just a different version.
Is this some dragonball crap right here? Tuvix vs Neelok?
Yes, he did. And for a time, so did they. He ceased to exist. Reforming him would mean he wasn't killed; it would simply be the act of restoring his life
Josue Rodriguez perhaps he was, but his molecules were just very dense.
This episode actually came out shortly after Dragonball had introduced the fusion concept in Japan. Not sure if it was inspired by DB or just a coincidence, though.
@Jeff Jacobson DB’s fusion dance and design were inspired by some old Hannah-Barbera cartoon about kids combining rings to summon a genie.
@Mark Smith He’s so dense, every single molecule has so much going on.
I remember they'd play VOY returns at night around 11pm years ago and I'd go to sleep still thinking about the moral questions and decisions that were brought up.
Damn that's relatable Voyager still airs at 11 where I live 😁
I think ppl are missing a key point in this episode. Voyager was a lone ship in the delta quadrant. She didnt have the luxury in being near the federation so she had to bend the rules to survive. She also needed every abled body crew member alive and doing their job. If she allowed him to live then she would lose her security chief plus 2nd in command as well as their guide. She needed to do this as captain to ensure the safety of the ship and rest of the crew.
Which is the implied response regardign Twovix.
But the negative is she got back Neelix.
she literally makes a point not many episodes prior to this one about not bending rules because of their situation and sticking to starfleet protocols as a moral compass on a life of uncertainty
The scream as Tuvix dematerializes is chilling and reminiscent of the transporter accident in Star Trek the Motion Picture. 😱
It was fan-edited in, that wasn't in the actual episode.
Honestly, this sent chills down my spine when I first watched it. A man begging for his life while his crew mates all stand by, party to his murder. It's horrible to watch.
I thought they would change their mind in the last minute :/
Was it really murder if he was created at the expense of two lives, and those lives will be restored?
I thought they’d find a tech way to have their cake and eat it, I thought they’d make a holo-copy of Tuvix and he’d become a new regular character, but when they did this, I genuinely was shocked, and I wasn’t sure I agreed with it, but y’know, hello to the drama of the real world, some people have to make decisions like this every day.
@@beayn the other two weren't forced into giving up their lives, it was an accident that removed them not an order.
@@beayn - Yes, it was.
janeway: wow, it's not every day i get to openly murder a crew member and get away with it 🤣
" Hey, Mr.Vulcan, .......do you remember when we were combined by the transporter?."
" Please, Mr.Neelix, the mere thought gives me a headache."
Technically, Tuvix wasn't a crew member.
@@undrhil5281 Then what was he doing at the tactical station if not being a crewmember?
@@andrewshouse9840 hired help
@@undrhil5281 That makes it even worse! She killed a civilian!
To be fair, they were originally two separate people with their own lives. Tuvac had a wife. How he gonna go back to her as a whole new person. Sure Tuvix had his own personality and everything, but he was clearly not meant to exist. To let him stay would be to essentially take away the right of those two. I bet they didn’t want to be stuck together forever. So while it may seem heartless on janeways part, I get her decision and agree with it
It wouldn't be that crazy all they would need to do is to structure the plant with additional samples to recreate Tuvix as they are separating Tuvok and Neelix
Tuvok and Neelix died in an accident. By pure happenstance someone new was born from this same accident. Tuvok and Neelix' death was the fault of no one. As with most deaths, it is regrettable, but Starfleet makes sure that you know the risks you take when you sign up and everyone willingly agrees to them, knowing their lives may be at stake some day.
Yes, it's very tragic for Tuvok's family that he passed away in an accident and that that same accident gave life to someone new that would have felt a strong connection to them, had they ever met, but Tuvix had just as much right to life as any sentient being does. It's fucked up, but this is the way things are now. Fate dealt them a very weird and very shitty hand, but now they have to play it anyway. You don't get a do-over, just because you don't like what you were dealt.
@@Xylarxcode or Tuvix was just what he was, an accident. Like many accidents, the results don’t have to be permanent. As seen that they had the ability to split those two back apart. I get some of y’all want to fight for Tuvix rights. But the needs of the many, outweigh the needs of the few. They’re on a long trip back to Earth. There’s no reason you should give up your tactical officer when there’s obviously no need to. Had there been a way for them to get Tuvac and Neelix out while keeping Tuvix, I’m sure they would have taken it. But giving up two members of your crew that accidentally got fused together, is unacceptable. Clearly they weren’t dead. As they came out just as they normally were. It’s easy to look at someone you have no emotional connection with and be like, oh well they just stuck together now. No, had that been your child wife husband or whatever, you’d immediately be like, can you separate them. Which will forever be the right choice. Tivix is literally a combination of them. He has no family and only has friends that exist because they were already friends with those two. His personality, is them two. Everything is them. Splitting them back apart didn’t eliminate that, it just put it back to the way it was. notice nobody every talked about him again.
@@Xylarxcode you also do not write them off if you can fix the problem
@@yoboyrob201 Nobody ever talked about it again because it's a serialized show with a status quo that can only be affected by plots actually relevant to the overarching plot.
The fact of the matter is that if Tuvix had not awoken, and were simply a comatose body, then it would be a lot less of a moral quandary. At that point, Tuvix would not be Tuvix, and he would be an 'accident.'
But he expressed self-autonomy, expressed sentience, expressed personal interests, emotions, and so much more. He was a _person,_ not an accident, and any other take is inherently shitty. Sometimes in life, we have to make shitty decisions to prevent a shittier end, but this was not one of those times.
If Tuvix had _lost_ the memories or capabilities of the component characters, then there would be a valid argument in a desperate survival scenario for trying to unfuse Tuvok and Neelix. But--
1. Tuvix did _not_ lose any of those memories or capabilities. From his perspective, he'd simply lived two lives up to this point.
2. Neelix was never as essential to the ship's overall function as Tuvok was. He acted as a guide, chef, and provided a unique perspective, all functions Tuvix could easily have fulfilled even while acting as a security officer.
3. It was _not_ a desperate survival scenario. 99% of the time on the ship is socializing, exercising, utilizing the holodeck, or maintenance as they travel through space, going days or weeks without anything interesting happening.
The fact of the matter is that this event was incited and allowed to unfold because everyone else *DIDN'T EVEN* _TRY_ *TO GET OVER THEIR FEELS.* Tuvok and Neelix weren't _dead,_ not really, not so long as they tried to simply look at Tuvix as if those individuals had major emotional epiphanies that changed their outlooks somewhat. Instead, the situation is functionally equivalent to this:
A person has a major experience that changes their outlook on life, resulting in serious mental and emotional development resulting in being happier and more stable and more emotionally-fulfilled. An old friend decides to tell them _"I liked the way you were before better."_
Except, in this scenario, it's a whole community deciding they liked the way they were before better, and acting in concert to make their life shittier so they go back to how they were. Or erasing their memory of that event that changed them. Or killing them with a clone with older memories. Every one of these situations is unambiguously shitty. Every one of them is functionally equivalent to what happened here.
And, for the record, I fucking _would_ accept a loved one being in that situation. That just means that the resultant individual _inherits_ those feelings, and I mourn in private for the potentials and individuality lost. My fucking _feels_ are not a _right_ to _deprive someone else of their autonomy._
At least it wasn't Harry Kim dying for once.
You can say Ensign Harry Kim.
@@Zodroo_Tint make sure you emphasize ensign.
I love how you added the transporter accident death scream from Star Trek the motion picture at the end lol
Couldn't they keep Tuvix and still have the other two remade? I mean teleporters basically recreate people from atoms/energy... What's stopping them from cloning?
a clone woudnt be the same person, it would be a clone
Or just Tuvok and Tuvix 😂
@@julianjjz987 have you seen the double riker episode?
@@audreyandremington5265 this wasnt really cloning tho, non of those two are the "real" one
@@audreyandremington5265 Well I mean if you go back to "Relics" Scotty lost the captain of the Jenolan in the transporter buffer due to pattern degradation. The Enterprise was sitting right next to them and you had Scotty and Geordi at the console and they could not get him back. I would say transporters have very specific limits of what they can and cant do. Will/Tom Riker thing was caused by a combination of technology and nature a freak accident that cant be recreated.
Tuvix always creeped me out, even after rewatching the episode.
Probably why everyone wanted him gone and why a computer program (that can't be creeped out) was the only one who stood up for him.
I know this is supposed to be a sad, dramatic scene but I can't help but laugh watching Tuvix plead for his life to the blank faces of the Voyager crew, I lose it in particular looking at the face of Tom Paris 🤣🤣🤣🤣
The crew act like the rest of co-workers when someone has been made redundant.
lol
or when someone is sexually harassed by management
Exactly. What a pathetic specie are we...
@@animateddepression I'd look for another work environment if I where you.
@@animateddepression SJW
Probably the worst decision that Janeway ever made. And that includes giving a bioweapon to the Borg just so she could take a shortcut through their space.
I agree. Considering the terrifying potential damage she inflicted (indirectly) to countless races she's never even met due to her helping the Borg, she might have just looked for a remote Class-M planet and settled there. Voyager literally FUCKED UP the entire Delta Quadrant.
Sorry, but Tim Russ and Ethan Phillips have contracts.
IIRC there was no good decision for that situation, except insofar as to remove the greater threat. The otherdimensional bioships race were totally trashing the borg and would not have stopped with the borg, but made their intentions clear that they would wipe out the galaxy. It's more Warhammer 40K than Startrek when you think bout it.
It is kind of impressive how quickly the crew jumped on the murder train. Was there really any urgency to bring Tuvok and Neelix back? I wish they would have at least held a damn funeral.
Probably erased ship records and logs, including the doctor's holographic memory of the event.
Why a funeral for a being that was never born?
The Doc is the only one to stick up for him. This and other reasons are why he is my favourite character in Voyager.
"Starfleet is not an organization that ignores its own regulations when they become inconvenient." Capt. Picard, "Measure of a Man"
Tuvix had rights under Federation law, no matter how inconvenient or unfair they may have seemed to the crew in this unique situation. They violated those rights.
Another thing that's bad about this situation, is that Janeway ends up sounding like a hypocrite when she later confronts the captain of the _Equinox_
It's a small price to pay and she can live with it.
@@niccolom - Well. Remind me to never give you power.
Also let's not forget her speech at the end of the episode, Phage, which clearly shows her hypocrisy:
"I can't begin to understand what your people have gone through. They may have found a way to ignore the moral implications of what you are doing, but I have no such luxury. I don't have the freedom to kill you to save another. My culture finds that to be a reprehensible and entirely unacceptable act. If we were closer to home I would lock you up and turn you over to my authorities for trial, but I don't even have that ability here, and I am not prepared to carry you forever in our brig. So I see no other alternative but to let you go."
@@niccolom "Small price to pay" only matters to those who don't have to pay the cost. Starfleet was founded on the principles of sentient rights and discovering what was unknown. Tuvi was a new lifeform with rights under the 8th Article of Federation. Janeway as an officer had as much duty to uphold that law as protect her crew. She didn't just fail her dut, she deliberately ignored it.
I'm not that far into Voyager but this does seem very hypocritical. She yells at people to follow Starfleet rules saying that they keep the crew morally grounded but apparently doesn't care when it's her friend.
Ok, the agonised scream at the end really made me laugh. 😂
@Roady 🤣 I know. Poor Tuvix... But he had to go. Let's face it. 😂😂
Came back to rewatch this scene and I do not remember Tuvix screaming like that in agony 💀
It would have been interesting if they had made it a two part, first part deals with Tuvix and his plea for life eventually convincing the crew. Then the second part dealing with a genetic instability developing after awhile because of the merge and ultimately sacrificing his life on his own terms to bring back Tuvok and Neelix so that their genetics aren't lost.
man, were the writers on pot that day, obvious solution and believable.
It would have been interesting, yes. But I think by making the merge stable with no perceptible issues, it made the decision that much more ambiguous. Many, and in fact most, shows with stories like this would have introduced a quirk like that to remove the responsibility from the captain/crew. This episode stands out specifically because it chose not to do that.
Make sense to me, I feel like other episodes of Star Trek were dealt with the same way, just a little deus ex machina to make a difficult ethical choice or a choice to violate the prime directive easier to make.
Damn that's actually good
I always thought this was way out of character for the show and one of its weakest written episodes.
What would have been better IMO would be if the crew accepted that Tuvix had the right to exist like anyone else (he didn't asked to be created). However, Tuvix could have took it upon himself to sacrifice his life, realising that his existence effectively cost the life of two people.
"The needs of the many, out way the needs of the few."
That's pretty good. Or they could have said something like he figured out some strange feeling he had was Tuvok and Neelix yearning to exist again and he couldn't shake it while making him feel guilty.
I disagree. I think that would be too easy a way out of the moral dilemma. I think this brutal ending as it stands is a rather nice change of pace from the usual Voyager.
Had the same reaction when I watched it last night.
The needs of the one outweigh the needs of the many. That's the conclusion Kirk came to at the end of ST III and he's right. The the individual's rights supercede that of the mob. Tuvix should have been allowed to live.
Please allow me to quote Kirk and Spock:
"The needs of the many never outweigh the needs of the one."
And this is why you don't get between Janeway and her coffee. She gets a little... genocidal.
If only they had that in the original episode. It would highlight Janeways murderous tendencies even more!
Janeway: Deutchland uber alles!
Paris: Captain, you seem a bit grouchy. I suggest you have a Snickers.
Maybe *gene*-ocidal.😎
Don't forget " The enemy within"
The two Kirk's !!!!.
@@johnbockelie3899 that was Mirrir Kirk though! I was sad that Voyager didn't do a mirror episode. Would have been awesome!
What I want to know is, Tuvix was part plant right?
Well when the separation was done, you don't see a weird looking plant next to Neelix and Tuvok. So are they both part plant now or...?
That's an excellent question. I'm guessing the plant's pattern was filtered out.
This just occured to me, but I wonder if this incident affected the Doctor's later breakdown after it was finally his turn to choose which life to save (in "Latent Image").
Star Trek 1989: "This life form, while ugly, is sacred and deserves to live."
Star Trek 1996: "While alive, since ugly, it must die"
Star Trek 2020: *Tuvix has eyes ripped out for no reason, then dies*
Star Trek 2040: lol u ugly *Captain of Starfleet flag ship bashes Tuvix's brains out with a spiked bat while Tuvix screams in horror, crew members laugh in response*
"The number one Star Trek series was called: Ass. And that's all it was for 90 mins. It won eight Emmies that year including best screenplay"
My back has been hurting really badly today; it's never done this before, so it's quite new to me...
Your comment made me laugh so hard that I curled up in pain. It was as if someone had grabbed my spine with a vice, yet I couldn't stop laughing.
Horrible pain fueled by overwhelming hilarity... I'm afraid to read your comment again. But I want to.
EDIT: I read it again!
Mannnnnn! The visual of janeway going at him with the bat, Tom and Harry high fiving in the background, all the while Tuvix is trying to crawl away.
You're sick.
Ugly? I don't think Tuvix was supposed to look like some grotesque accident, only like a blend of Tuvok and Neelix. I don't think he was ugly - Neelix is far uglier. And then there's Naomi Wildman. Now that makeup WAS ugly! The poor girl had actual spikes on her forehead!
Star Trek 2060: the Borg baby actually meets the fate that Kate Mulgrew jokingly said it did.
The problem is much more complex than that, tuvok and neelix had the right to live
The Doctor’s the standout as the only ethical being on the entire ship.
I don't get it, how is he more ethical for killing 2 men instead of 1? Isn't that less ethical?
@@Scripture-Man He didn't kill them. He made Janeway do her own dirty work.
@@Scripture-Man The logic is that Tuvok and Neelix are technically already dead at that point and Tuvix is not. If it's okay to sacrifice Tuvix to bring them back, is it okay to sacrifice a random crew member? or Tom Paris? After all that's still killing one person to save two.
It gets complicated once you start to consider if Tuvok and Neelix are actually dead or not.
You know you have hit rock bottom when the most ethical being on your ship is a hologram.
@@chrissmeaton7127 The issues aren't as cut and dry as that. Tuvik is a fuse of two beings. Two beings with families and friends. Janeway chose someone she has had a long relationship with instead of the new one. I can respect that choice. If I had to choose between my best friend since college 12+years and one of my dnd friends I been playing with for about 5years, I could choose my best friend without thinking twice. Most people would. The doctor is using his oath as a shield. because he is doing the most harm by giving Janeway the phaser metaphorically. But later down the line, he chooses to save Ensign Kim over another because he had a closer relationship with him and not the other crewman. He go crazy because of it.
Thank you for this video on how the episode ended. I was watching it the other night and fell asleep before I saw what happened to Tuvix.
Almost 30 years later and we're still debating this. A great episode.
Debate?! We just murdered this man.
@@leeroyjenks And brought two back from the dead. It's an incredible feat.
@@leeroyjenksDid we all just collectively forget that Tuvix was the result of a symbiotic parasite? He wasn't a new person. Bringing Tuvok and Neelix back was the right thing to do.
@@TNEQLFrom a "greater good" perspective, maybe. From a "right and wrong" perspective... probably not.
If Tuvix had argued for his right to live in front of a Federation tribunal, I'm fairly certain they would have affirmed his right to live.
Well, Lower Decks actually had Captain Freeman AND Mariner say Janeway murdered Tuvix!
That scene in The Motion Picture that the end of this clip references where Janice Rand says "Oh no, they're forming" is truly one of the most horrifying scenes in all of Trek.
I felt so bad for Sonak, killed by the plot so they could get back the cooler Vulcan science officer.
I skip that scene when I watch that movie
Tuvix was new life, intelligent, self-aware, and conscious. He had as much right to refuse the procedure to be separated as Data did to refuse being dismantled.
exactly
I agree _completely_ but it was apparent this dilemma was interfering with Janeway’s coffee fix.
Sometimes people make the wrong decisions. And that's okay.
Except he was created at the expense of two lives, and those lives would be restored after. Data was not created at the expense of any life.
@@beayn he wasn't created on purpose; the transporter accident that made him in essence killed Tuvok and Neelix. If they had died in a different way and it turned out that taking an unrelated person's life could bring them back, it would be wrong too.
“Well, the Captain ordered his murder! Who am I to disagree?!”
Everyone on Voyager, showing that famous strict Starfleet moral code.
that's always the way in Star Trek. Only Captains are allowed to think for themselves. Admirals and Commodores get things wrong since they are too far removed from the situation. The logical people get it wrong because they overlook the human-mercy-compassion factor. The doctors get it wrong because they never dabble in the necessary grey areas and cannot see past their hippocratic oath. The crewmembers are expected the follow orders without question because they are just too clueless to make the right decision.
but only Janeway did something this truly monstrous with her authority. I love Kate Mulgrew but the writers did Janeway no justice.
This is almost like a horror movie. Imagine begging people you thought were good and principled friends of yours for help from a process that will essentially kill you and all of them stand by and just stare at you unflinchingly.
Should have asked Discovery crew for help I am sure they could have used a EM coil spanner to re-modulate a transporter beam with a black hole. Reversing the laws of physics and allowing Tuvok and Neelix to be extracted from Tuvix without harming him and all 3 live. THAT'S THE POWER OF MATH PEOPLE!
Fuck Yeah, Science Yeah!
Those lines induce vomit without fail.
this is so dumb it has to be an actual idea the Kurtz crew came up with
Discovery is real? I thought that was just a paranoid delusion that I had while staring at my broken tv.
Mark Smith I think all of us just thought it was a terrible terrible fever dream
That wasn't murder; that was an execution.
It was a medical procedure to restore normality.
@@WhatsReallyGoingOn84 they even escorted him with security like he was on death row.
Plus the doctor refused to push the button to begin, because the doctor felt this wasn't a medical procedure; Janeway herself had to push the button to start.
I disagree.
Tuvix was an accidental creation from two lives and they have the ability to save those two lives. Doing nothing = letting two people die. This is a "trolley problem". Do nothing with the train and 5 people die. Flick the switch and 1 person dies.
Tuvix is a combination of two noble and selfless minds, I doubt he would have been so selfish as to demand they die while he live. It felt forced for drama.
@@beayn That's because it was. As you said they were both brave and selfless. His Tovok side would've seen the logic in the separation, and Nelix has shown how brave he is in the past as well. So I doubt a mixture of the 2 would've been so cowardly. A much better way to have handle the ending was Janeway fighting with the guilt of the decision. Tuvixs accepting the decision, while trying to assure Janeway was making the right one, as he said goodbye to everyone with dignity.
He was a selfish prick.
Beckett Mariner: She knows Janeway straight up murdered Tuvix right?
No. Tuvix murdered Tuvok and Neelix and wanted them to stay dead.
@@NickyShearer Tuvix had no say in Tuvok and Neelix' deaths.
It's more equivalent to a mother and father dying when a baby is born, the baby inheriting both of their life forces, the community discovering this and electing to sacrifice the baby to use the combined life forces to resurrect the two parents.
It's up to you whether it's shittier to force this upon someone without the will or capacity to say "I'm me and I'm alive and I deserve to stay alive" ... or to force it upon someone who _can_ say those things, actively _is_ saying those things, and _do it anyway._
In my mind, definite personhood makes it a lot worse.
Okay, cold as I am towards Tuvix, his actor is amazing... which makes the tuned-out faces of the crew all the more hilarious when it cuts back to them.
Star Trek Voyeger: the War Crimes Tribunal when?
Right after Mr. Data's (attempted execution of Kivas Fajo).
Not sure Starfleet has any regulations about separating beings created in transporter accidents.
Right after they adress sisko's war crimes i believe
"As a physician, I can do no harm. That's why I designed this procedure to kill this guy, and made it so easy an untrained captain can do it. But I will not push the button myself!"
Lol
He hadn't known that Tuvix would object when he devised the procedure.
ah yes, the classic oppenheimer dillema.
There's only 2 options. 2 options.
- Let Tuvix live
- Save the other 2 "missing" crew members
But at no point did anyone ever consider the 3rd option.
- Find a way to save Tuvix AND the crewmembers.
Certainly there could've been a way? Save his memories? Upload to holodeck? Android? EMH? Researching the transporter and finding a way to split him into 2 while also keeping a copy of him and spitting him back out so he stays alive? None?
No one even tried. Just wow.
As soon as he objected it should have been a matter of finding another way. It’s not like they had to do it that very second, and it’s not like functionally the crew couldn’t work without them. Other than Kes. Fuck Kes in this episode.
@@Rhewin Absolutely. I just can't believe how ridiculous this episode was. They could have chosen a better way. They have the technology, I know they could've found a way
Without context, I'm sitting here thinking, "Ey! Wot just 'appened?!"
Nice insertion of the Star Trek TMP transporter accident sound effect.
The needs of the many, outweigh the needs of the few. Or the one. Except when they don’t?
2 lives > 1?
Pure logic would dictate as such, standed and without replacement crew the avoidable loss of Bridge crewman is highly illogical. However humans are not creatures of pure logic. We have that great strength and weakness within our minds. Compassion and empathy for another being which desires to live.
Can you deny such a being when it pleads for life?
Nathaniel Perry yes. Human’s also have this thing called immorality
@@MediumRareOpinions It's a "trolley problem" if you look that up. They CAN save two people's lives at the expense of one. Which do you choose? Doing nothing = letting two people die. Flicking the switch and you save two, but one dies.
The needs of the many... as the OP said.
The needs of the one outweigh the needs of the many - James T. Kirk
Crew member: “Hey, didn’t Kirk and Riker get split one time using a teleporter? Maybe we could save all of them using something like that!”
Janeway: “No, he’s too ugly, it had to be done.”
Both were anomalies that couldn't be recreated.
@@misterFutile That's actually bullshit though... The transporter works by converting your body mass to energy, recording an exact copy, and then restoring you. All you have to do to create infinite clones of a person is to have enough matter to replicate them, which is easy, and save the recorded copy. Star Trek just never wanted to deal with this horrific reality of death being essentially reversible... Death not having any weight kills series.
@@davidtucker9498
Nope. Rewatch the episode. Riker's accident was caused by unique planetary environment and couldn't be replicated.
@@misterFutile The accident was unique, but the claim that they couldn't replicate it is bull. But then why would you want THREE Rikers?
They can replicate virtually any matter effortlessly. They transporter records your body's entire formation at the molecular level. That is all you need for infinite clones of a person. The fact that they were able to reconstitute Tuvok and Neelix at all proves it.
Even if they could copy Tuvix, neither Tuvix would want to be the one destroyed.
It's Benthamite utilitarian ethics- she kills one life to restore two. Easy math. For those seeking a position on one of the moral/ethical/philosophical spectra.
For those of us in the regular human community, she saves two of her actual crew members from a weird, vaguely horrifying fate induced by yet another technology glitch and restores their normal lives, though they'd need counselling in reality after something this freaky. It's no different than if the transporter had body switched them, or if they had been assimilated by the Borg, which also creates a new lifeform.
Or, for those who remember Kes pointing out that ultimately she saved one person because it was her friend and the other was a stranger, which really cut through the crap to the actual human motivation, the same issue applies. Neelix and especially Tuvok are her friends. Tuvix is an alien stranger. Tuvix lives only if there is no way to bring Neelix and Tuvok back.
By that logic you can go out on the street and murder someone in cold blood because their organs can be used to save multiple more people.
Was the phrase 'pattern buffer' uttered at all in this episode? I feel like this could have been a 'have your cake and eat it too' kind of situation.
Like the two Rikers.
i was so hoping they would keepo Tuvix, recreate Tuvok and Neelix and Keep Tuvix on, that way, both guys could have had a "brother" on board. imagine exploring that character
I totally agree. And Tuvix could have been even more of a comic relief then Neelix ever was! (Not that I disliked Neelix like some people, but I just never thought he was as good a comic relief as the show needed).
Tuvix would totally want to bang Kes and would end up fighting Neelix over her.
I can think of at least three times where this show killed Neelix then brought him back: Holodeck, space lightning, and Tuvix. Why tease us?
Murder no. Corrected a transporter malfunction, YES.
She cannot speak on behalf of Tuvok and Neelix. Just as Tuvix could not speak for them either. The only course of action was to return them back to their original states...
Tuvix absolutely _could_ speak for them, because he _was_ them. He _inherited_ their memories and emotions and perspectives, he simply combined them to make a greater whole.
The problem is that nobody else was willing to accept that, because they wanted _their_ versions of those individuals back.
The circumstances leading to a person's existence _do not make the resultant person any less of a person._ To reduce someone down to the point of only being a result of an event is inherently shitty and dehumanizing. It's like saying a child born of rape doesn't deserve to live. They had no call in that event.
Like, by your logic, it would be fair to sacrifice the child to turn back time and undo the rape.
This is like a reverse example of the Exocons in TNG. They asked if they were willing to die to save the crew, and Data refused to send them into certain death. In the end they willingly went into the reactor and no one drugged them, or forced them into peril
I like how her SS officers escort him to his death.
Janeway in the high castle
@@insertanynameyouwant5311 The Hirogen put her on the wrong side in their WW2 simulation.
@@scockery of course. There`s Hirogen side and there`s wrong side
Starship Wolfenstein
Why SS officers? have you been brain washed by the winners of the war too. in case you didn't know, All the Allie forces also did execusions and several war crimes. not only the axis powers as the history writers tell you...
The Classic Starfleet Inhumanity shown in this scene .
They will proclaim their defense of rights and dignity but only when it is convenient to them .
I guess the doctor should have thought about the implications of that isotope before he pursued it.
era su obligacion
Tuvix: A studio contract negotiations tactic to merge two characters into one, and preferably have a new third person take their place for little money
They could have finally be done with Neelix.
Haha, I feel sad for the actor (he's actually great) but the character was... let's just say I enjoyed seeing him strangled in that episode.
I thought Neelix was annoying at first but the character grew on me. It’s nice not having cookie cutter Starfleet characters like the Maquis.
@@aurex8937 I didn't like his character all that much, but oddly enough "Jetrel" is one of my favorite Voyager episodes. Then again I kind of felt the same way about Nog in DS9 but that changed completely in the later seasons, especially after "Siege if AR-558" and "It's Only A Paper Moon". And with Troi and the episode "Face of the Enemy"
IKR? Tuvix was a great cook, while Neelix was obsessed with adding spice to everything I know the "bad cook" thing was played for laughs, but there's no way the crew would eat unpleasant food for the next 7 decades
Aurex I wonder if that was Tuvoks private Neelix strangle simulation program, or if everyone in the crew used it.
Reading the title and then looking at your profile picture cracks me up
I love that not one of them will help him.
It makes them all into such horrendous monster.
no mountros, solo deseaban salvar a sus 2 amigos-
Although Janeway went after Branson for killing lifeforms to get them home and yet she does this to tovix and not lose her command her speech is about saving new life forms in yet she executes want to save her friend
Yeah, but if she pretends it never happened, like all the times she offered Federation tech to aliens (Night, 30 days, etc.) in blatant violation if Starfleet Protocols, and the person she's rebuking doesn't know she's a hypocrite, then that means she's done nothing wrong.
Richard Bransons' Virgin Galactic was a plague on the quadrant, though.
(I think you meant Ransom and it's strange they named an antagonist "Ransom" and the actor's name was Savage)
I love a flawed captain
What you're saying is illogical. Why it was wrong for Janeway to end 1 life in order to save 2?
@@Scripture-Man haha are you a psychopath. How can you unironically write that question.
whoa hold on a sec, Star Trek that's actually thought provoking?!
But the outcome is actually not really thought provoking. It's morally wrong on every conceivable level.
It's one of the reasons VOY tried to go "dark" a la DS9 but the writers were absolutely unable to write something even remotely intelligent. DS9 did moral dilemmas in a much more clever way.
@@aurex8937 How was this morally wrong on every conceivable level? Letting two people die to save one?
Aurex What would have been morally wrong, would have been if she’d left Tuvok and Nelix dead at the expense of this combination of the two.
@@aurex8937 "It's morally wrong on every conceivable level."
You're not thinking about this deeply enough.
It blew my mind on first viewing.
I've always wondered on this one. You can argue that "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one" .. that old line. So two crewman were lost in the merger. Plus two distinct sets of skills and persons doing two jobs. Losing Tuvix to get back the two was for the betterment of the two saved and the ship as a whole. But, does that honestly justify taking the action? And if as the command of the ship you think that is the proper action, under what circumstances would it not be proper? Again you can look to ST:TNG in the simulation where Troi sends off Holographic Geordi to die to save the ship .. a command choice which StarFleet wants to test commanders for to make sure they WILL make that choice to save the ship. Sacrificing one for the many. IN other words Commanders in Trek are picked because they WILL do this and WILL make this choice, despite any heartache or pangs of guilt. So at what point can this choice go wrong? If some race offered to transport Voyager halfway home but all they had to do was .. oh .. turn over some key person to be sacrificed to the portal gods .. would that be acceptable?
That old line refers to voluntarily self sacrifice, not something you do to others.
If Tuvix would have vigorously fought for his life, then it would have made this episode even more telling of how monstrous Janeways' actions were.
I think it was well handled, though. He was still Neelix and Tuvok, after all. Both men had faced death with courage and honor in the past, so a man who was their combined selves logically would do so as well.
@@oddish4352 Perhaps, but I don't remember them ever giving up so easily.
@@TawpeeBoyshuck Tuvix didn't just want to live, he wanted them to say he should live.
They broke his sprit before they killed him, basically.
@@AStrangeWindmill Suounds like a reasonable explanation. It seems plausible.
Lower Decks show us how right was Janeway.
Just an example of writers digging themselves a hole.
They could have solved this in so many better ways than execution one man for doing no crime.
Janeway " I don't want a circus side show on my bridge, besides that, can Tuvix cook food like Neelix?."
@@arabe7486 Have to try and find any excuse to flog it over Picard don't you?
@@johnbockelie3899
In the episode Tuvix was in fact a better cook and better security officer.
@@johnbockelie3899
Did you even watch this episode?
I wonder if Janeway included this in the logs. Like damn.
They could have created a secondary image of him in the transporter then materialized him and a split version of the other two.
Kinda like in TNG when William Riker finds he had a copy of himself caused by the transporter leaving Thomas Riker.
That scream at the end from The Star Trek Motion picture transporter malfunction was a hilarious touch! lol
Too bad they couldn’t do a Thomas Riker on Tuvik by duplicating him then split the one copy back into 2. Then you have 3 altogether.
Then you'd still be killing a clone, someone ELSE you callously created.
This is why I hate transporter technology.
rodjacksonx
Split the second as it is duplicated but not fully materialized and “alive” yet.
Both incidents are continuity disasters that aren't in line with how transporters are described to function. Transporters are suppose to break down matter into energy, transport that energy from point a to point b, and then reassemble that same energy back into matter. For the Tuvik or Riker incidents to have occured the way transporters are suppose to function, you'd have to break the laws of Thermodynamics, specifically the law of conservation of energy.
The other alternative is that transporters don't function the way they are described, and instead simply scan you, disintegrate you, and then reassemble you from ship power. Which effectively means every time you transport something you are utterly destroying it, which in the case of a biological organism means you are killing it, and then remaking it anew.
If this was the case, you could effectively snapshot individuals by simply scanning them and storing it in an archive. Then you could recreate them anytime you wanted, with as many copies as you wanted. Which really makes them replicators, not transporters.
That doesn't work. Because then who is to decide which Tuvix would have to die?
@@brandoncomer6492 What a brilliantly stated summary of the problem with episodes like this!
Very disturbing episode. Can't decide what's right here. 🙄
Okay pls I need context I've heard of star trek but I dont know what's going one
to me its clear, an accident turned 2 people into one. So you revert it. I don't think they even killed tuvix, he just had the illusion to be an individual because of the merge and then was selfish enough to consider his consciousness anything more but a merge of these 2 people.
@@readwithJoey watch the episode, its nice. Basically a teleporter accident merges two people into one because of how teleports disassemble and reassemble you, a glitch made them be re assemble as one person instead of 2. They decide to split him again to get the 2 individuals back.
@@walouinsanityshed yep, if it was a third conscience then janeway's decision was wrong ... if it was a merge of the two consciences then the decision was right ... but how do you know?
@@lucaallemann5941 She was right.
Tuvix was litterally the sum of the two, nothing more.
Whatever he was doing better was because he had the expert skills of both people and that makes sense but it's because he has two people in him. It's ridiculous to think he is anything new. He had a unique look and personality but in the end it really was just a merge because he created no new memories or new attributes. they all are still tuvok's and nilix's
I love that they added a scream/shriek at the end once the other two appear.
Unpopular opinion, but I agree with her decision. As difficult as it is, it was an accident that created him, losing two individuals. A deliberate act fixed the accident.