Mark 11:23 is not a WoF verse. It's the words of Jesus. The difference between WoF people and the guys in the video is that we believe what Jesus said and frankly they don't, which is why they look for some pious, scholarly sounding allegorical interpretation to justify dismissing the clear meaning of the text.
Sure its always okay to want more good content but i guess he have other things to attend to as well. He will show up again when he is good an ready+ having something from God to say. Im blessing you and "The Objective Beliver"👍
Dude, I love you. You are absolutely astounding! I heard this on remnant radio and I was like coming out of my skin. I’m so irritated by these people. you, my friend have nailed it. You’re ability to articulate truth about any subject blows my mind.I so appreciate what you’re doing. I’m giving an offering to help further your work. Keep it up keep it up. Keep it up. We need people like you !!!
Wow, the idea that word of faith proponents treat faith almost like it's a fourth member of the God head is such an insane take. I was actually shocked to hear that allegation.
One Thing to Remember, The Remnant radio guys do have direct contact with people who are more knowledgeable on WOF teaching and doctrine. They simply chose to not use those contacts for this video which is really unfortunate.
AMEN! The Remnant guys know Rod Saunders and have had conversations with Rod. They ignore people who ARE word of faith, and instead to turn to the "experts" who have abandoned WoF. Jew & Greek also has a great video responding to Michael Stenhammer.
@@TaylorBibleGuy Why wouldn't it be possible for God move a mountain if someone applied faith in Him to do so? What makes you believe it is not possible when Jesus said it is and nothing is impossible? (My questions are for serious discussion and exploration.)
I tell you coming out of Eastern Orthodox stuff i don't care about labels or statement of faith or logical debates because everyone can argue their position. What does the bible plainly teach? What are we even called to do? Everything else becomes an idol
Kenneth Copeland is not the only one that has referred to faith as a force. Kenneth Hagin Jr. has discussed it a few times. Personally, I always looked at it as a force because of James 2:26 and basic physics. If faith needs works to move, then faith would have to be a force. A force needs to have done work to be able to move.
In 13:41 He comes up with his own made up context for why Jesus says "O Faithless generation" in that they were trusting in their own stuff. The plain reading of the text makes it known that he said what he said because they were unbelieving
I see the term Word of Faith not as a denomination or a movement but an attempt to coin a phrase that encompasses a group of beliefs about the interaction between faith and miracles. The thing is all these beliefs can be found in other groups of Christian believers therefore the confusion of what belongs where.
At the 4:30 mark, I'm ready to yell "BINGO!" This is so true for many debates. The problem is that we asume we're talking English and ignore our opponents when they try to tell us, otherwise.
@@Dan-ch8kv Faith will move a mountain, move a tree, move demons, move sickness, move a person from a road from hell to heaven (figuratively speaking)... Hebrews 11 repeatedly says "by faith" things took place.
The problem with these guys is that they read their Word of Faith theology into literally every passage. It’s not there though and so they just need to engage in eisegesis
Ive noticed a pattern with cessationists. Because arguments for cessationism purely from scripture are beyond wafer thin, cessationists engage in alot of strawmaning as a result. Theologically, Im a strange animal I guess. Im a calvinist but I still hold to the same things that are believed in most pentecostal and some WOF circles. I know its weird to hear, but I was charismatic first and unlike Costi Hinn I didnt go from one extreme to another either when I went reformed. Cessationists though tend to like to find either some person that is usually the most extreme, goofy example of someone that is a charismatic or claims to be like a Kenneth Copeland. Or they find some extreme teaching, in this case some of the extremes in the teachings on money, giving, and prosperity. Then they create a lable for it like prosperity gospel which they make that teaching sononimous with being word of faith. Then of course if you even suggest that God can, does, or wants to meet our needs, or heal us when were sick they engage in this theological McCarthyism, and lable you prosperty gospel/word of faith heretic. Frankly I call Calvinists out for doing this all of the time since Im in that camp. I tell them youre doing the exact same thing people who are critics of reformed theology do. Rather than interact meaningfully with the arguments being made from scripture people bring up Fred Phelps, Michael Servetus, and Martin Luther was antisemitic. Im probably the only calvinist youll hear say this, but I love Martin Luther, young Martin Luther, and I also love Benny Hinn. I think both are and were men of God, and sincere, who also got off on some extremes in their life in their teaching and views on things. However, any extremes Benny has gotten off on is mild in comparison to many of the things Martin Luther got off on in his teaching towards the end of his life. Of course we all know how the Nazis used Luthers writings back in the day. I wish these guys would find someone to interview thats more ballanced on these issues. And just FYI you do have a growing fanbase amongst charismatic calvinists you may not be aware of. Thats how I found your channel. Blessings bro.
I think your take on Mark 11 isn't quite right either, it is somewhere between your take and the Remnant take. Read the whole Mark 11 account in context. It was about establishing Jesus as God, cursing of the tree that bore no fruit, cleansing the temple etc. etc. Vs 22 makes the definitive statement that frames the rest of the passage, (which aligns with the statement made by Mikal). Have faith in God.... Relational. Then the passage is followed with directives on prayer, forgiveness and offenses. All of which none of us are perfect in or can attain to on this side of the second resurrection. Basically a comment to us about our humanity and how much we will fall short of the standard in order for vs. 23-24 to be perfectly realized in our life. Yet there are moments in life as believers that we do attain it.... This all points to the relational aspect. It all comes in to focus when pair this concept with other scripture such as James 4:3. We are all prone to ask amiss because we are imperfect. But when we are seeking God, drawing near to Him, (Have Faith in God) doing life in Him, We get a little closer and the things we "ask for" sound more like His will and not our own, then we see things happen. But far too often the things we are confessing for are all selfishly motivated.... riches, cars, homes, problem free life..... etc..
@@williamphelps4552 I don’t recall sharing “my take” on Mark 11. Unless you’re referring to my pointing out what it literally says and doesn’t say. But , I do more or less agree with what you said.
@@TaylorBibleGuy based on Mark 11:24, I’m inclined to answer yes. With a big caveat: I don’t think it’s possible to have “100% faith” for what you ask unless you’re walking with God and knowledgeable of His Word. Hagin used to say “faith begins where the will of God is known” In other words, you’ve got to maintain an intimate relationship with God through prayer and the Word to know his will and THEN faith rises to ask for things. This being case, what you ask will undoubtedly align with His Word and will.
@@theobjectivebeliever oh so it has to be within his will? So then it is all centered in Jesus and the gospel just like remnant radio was saying… if this is true then Faith isn’t just a force and it doesn’t matter how much “Faith force” we can muster by “believing” with full confidence. It’s about knowing his will and praying within that. So pretty much you agree with them. ;)
@@TaylorBibleGuy I do agree with them. I said that in the video. The part that they left out, however, is the fact that Jesus specifically says to believe for the outcome when you pray and speak. Not just believe in Him. Christ needs to be central. No argument here. Let’s just be careful we aren’t using this fact as a scapegoat to avoid obeying the rest of what is taught in these passages.
I came out of WoF. They have more seeming verse backing than a lot of ppl acknowledge. Add a "pious" reason for it, and it makes it even more convincing.
None of your “rebuttals” are convincing. Most of what you have said is based on a misinterpretation of Scripture based on Hyper Charismatic presuppositions.
Being “convincing” isn’t a goal of mine. Too subjective of a metric. But if you can point to anything I said that was untrue in the video-that I’d be interested in. Please provide the quote. I’d be happy to issue a clarification or correction.
🎒𝗧𝗵𝗲 𝗢𝗯𝗷𝗲𝗰𝘁𝗶𝘃𝗲 𝗕𝗲𝗹𝗶𝗲𝘃𝗲𝗿 𝗦𝘁𝗮𝗿𝘁𝗲𝗿 𝗣𝗮𝗰𝗸🎒
🤜What is meant by “Objective”?
www.theobjectivebeliever.com/being-objective
🤜“But . . . False Teachers!”
th-cam.com/video/oaqY6ZVSS8I/w-d-xo.html
🤜“But . . . Heresy!”
th-cam.com/video/KNMnup3gctA/w-d-xo.html
🤜“But . . . Context, Exegesis, and Hermeneutics!”
th-cam.com/video/DLRmzl5u90k/w-d-xo.html
th-cam.com/video/St8U0Jaai08/w-d-xo.html
🤜 To the Critics
www.theobjectivebeliever.com/if-i-said-something-untrue
🤜See more at
www.TheObjectiveBeliever.com
Mark 11:23 is not a WoF verse. It's the words of Jesus. The difference between WoF people and the guys in the video is that we believe what Jesus said and frankly they don't, which is why they look for some pious, scholarly sounding allegorical interpretation to justify dismissing the clear meaning of the text.
Way to go, Rod. 👏 Thanks for introducing me to this channel.
Hi JewandGreek
We demand a more frequent schedule of video releases from this channel! It's our inviolable right!
Maybe its not been predestined 🤣
@@John-Christchurch-NZ
Sure its always okay to want more good content but i guess he have other things to attend to as well. He will show up again when he is good an ready+ having something from God to say. Im blessing you and "The Objective Beliver"👍
Dude, I love you. You are absolutely astounding! I heard this on remnant radio and I was like coming out of my skin. I’m so irritated by these people. you, my friend have nailed it. You’re ability to articulate truth about any subject blows my mind.I so appreciate what you’re doing. I’m giving an offering to help further your work.
Keep it up keep it up. Keep it up. We need people like you !!!
Putting my faith in God’s promises!
Wow, the idea that word of faith proponents treat faith almost like it's a fourth member of the God head is such an insane take. I was actually shocked to hear that allegation.
I threw a few comments at Remnant's video.
One Thing to Remember, The Remnant radio guys do have direct contact with people who are more knowledgeable on WOF teaching and doctrine. They simply chose to not use those contacts for this video which is really unfortunate.
AMEN! The Remnant guys know Rod Saunders and have had conversations with Rod. They ignore people who ARE word of faith, and instead to turn to the "experts" who have abandoned WoF. Jew & Greek also has a great video responding to Michael Stenhammer.
@theobjectivebeliever would be a great guest on their show.
They never once thought that the mountain was a metaphor for our problems in life. We all have mountains in our life that we have to speak to.
Respectfully, Im not sure what point you’re trying to make here. Your second sentence sounds like metaphor.
@@paullavoie5542 cool then go move an actual mountain, I’ll wait.
@@TaylorBibleGuy Why wouldn't it be possible for God move a mountain if someone applied faith in Him to do so? What makes you believe it is not possible when Jesus said it is and nothing is impossible? (My questions are for serious discussion and exploration.)
I tell you coming out of Eastern Orthodox stuff i don't care about labels or statement of faith or logical debates because everyone can argue their position. What does the bible plainly teach?
What are we even called to do?
Everything else becomes an idol
Kenneth Copeland is not the only one that has referred to faith as a force. Kenneth Hagin Jr. has discussed it a few times.
Personally, I always looked at it as a force because of James 2:26 and basic physics. If faith needs works to move, then faith would have to be a force. A force needs to have done work to be able to move.
In 13:41 He comes up with his own made up context for why Jesus says "O Faithless generation" in that they were trusting in their own stuff.
The plain reading of the text makes it known that he said what he said because they were unbelieving
I see the term Word of Faith not as a denomination or a movement but an attempt to coin a phrase that encompasses a group of beliefs about the interaction between faith and miracles. The thing is all these beliefs can be found in other groups of Christian believers therefore the confusion of what belongs where.
At the 4:30 mark, I'm ready to yell "BINGO!" This is so true for many debates. The problem is that we asume we're talking English and ignore our opponents when they try to tell us, otherwise.
Why CAN'T faith be a force?
Because it’s a mental state that leads to a physical action? This isn’t Star Wars
Because the Bible doesn’t describe it as such.
At the very least you could make an argument that “Faith” is a deed or title based on Hebrews 11, still something that is given.
First, obtain the meanings of "force". Next, give comprehensive examples.
@@Dan-ch8kv Faith will move a mountain, move a tree, move demons, move sickness, move a person from a road from hell to heaven (figuratively speaking)...
Hebrews 11 repeatedly says "by faith" things took place.
Do I control gravity (or control God, who created gravity) by dropping something?
@@pembertonjones8135 exactly. The universe is very much “mechanistic” and we have used it to our advantage since the beginning of creation.
The problem with these guys is that they read their Word of Faith theology into literally every passage. It’s not there though and so they just need to engage in eisegesis
Ive noticed a pattern with cessationists. Because arguments for cessationism purely from scripture are beyond wafer thin, cessationists engage in alot of strawmaning as a result. Theologically, Im a strange animal I guess. Im a calvinist but I still hold to the same things that are believed in most pentecostal and some WOF circles. I know its weird to hear, but I was charismatic first and unlike Costi Hinn I didnt go from one extreme to another either when I went reformed. Cessationists though tend to like to find either some person that is usually the most extreme, goofy example of someone that is a charismatic or claims to be like a Kenneth Copeland. Or they find some extreme teaching, in this case some of the extremes in the teachings on money, giving, and prosperity. Then they create a lable for it like prosperity gospel which they make that teaching sononimous with being word of faith. Then of course if you even suggest that God can, does, or wants to meet our needs, or heal us when were sick they engage in this theological McCarthyism, and lable you prosperty gospel/word of faith heretic. Frankly I call Calvinists out for doing this all of the time since Im in that camp. I tell them youre doing the exact same thing people who are critics of reformed theology do. Rather than interact meaningfully with the arguments being made from scripture people bring up Fred Phelps, Michael Servetus, and Martin Luther was antisemitic. Im probably the only calvinist youll hear say this, but I love Martin Luther, young Martin Luther, and I also love Benny Hinn. I think both are and were men of God, and sincere, who also got off on some extremes in their life in their teaching and views on things. However, any extremes Benny has gotten off on is mild in comparison to many of the things Martin Luther got off on in his teaching towards the end of his life. Of course we all know how the Nazis used Luthers writings back in the day. I wish these guys would find someone to interview thats more ballanced on these issues. And just FYI you do have a growing fanbase amongst charismatic calvinists you may not be aware of. Thats how I found your channel. Blessings bro.
I think your take on Mark 11 isn't quite right either, it is somewhere between your take and the Remnant take. Read the whole Mark 11 account in context. It was about establishing Jesus as God, cursing of the tree that bore no fruit, cleansing the temple etc. etc. Vs 22 makes the definitive statement that frames the rest of the passage, (which aligns with the statement made by Mikal). Have faith in God.... Relational. Then the passage is followed with directives on prayer, forgiveness and offenses. All of which none of us are perfect in or can attain to on this side of the second resurrection. Basically a comment to us about our humanity and how much we will fall short of the standard in order for vs. 23-24 to be perfectly realized in our life. Yet there are moments in life as believers that we do attain it.... This all points to the relational aspect. It all comes in to focus when pair this concept with other scripture such as James 4:3. We are all prone to ask amiss because we are imperfect. But when we are seeking God, drawing near to Him, (Have Faith in God) doing life in Him, We get a little closer and the things we "ask for" sound more like His will and not our own, then we see things happen. But far too often the things we are confessing for are all selfishly motivated.... riches, cars, homes, problem free life..... etc..
@@williamphelps4552 I don’t recall sharing “my take” on Mark 11. Unless you’re referring to my pointing out what it literally says and doesn’t say.
But , I do more or less agree with what you said.
@@theobjectivebeliever so if we ask something with faith believing 100% that God will do it then God is obligated to do whatever that thing is?
@@TaylorBibleGuy based on Mark 11:24, I’m inclined to answer yes.
With a big caveat:
I don’t think it’s possible to have “100% faith” for what you ask unless you’re walking with God and knowledgeable of His Word. Hagin used to say “faith begins where the will of God is known”
In other words, you’ve got to maintain an intimate relationship with God through prayer and the Word to know his will and THEN faith rises to ask for things.
This being case, what you ask will undoubtedly align with His Word and will.
@@theobjectivebeliever oh so it has to be within his will? So then it is all centered in Jesus and the gospel just like remnant radio was saying… if this is true then Faith isn’t just a force and it doesn’t matter how much “Faith force” we can muster by “believing” with full confidence. It’s about knowing his will and praying within that. So pretty much you agree with them. ;)
@@TaylorBibleGuy I do agree with them. I said that in the video. The part that they left out, however, is the fact that Jesus specifically says to believe for the outcome when you pray and speak. Not just believe in Him.
Christ needs to be central. No argument here. Let’s just be careful we aren’t using this fact as a scapegoat to avoid obeying the rest of what is taught in these passages.
I came out of WoF. They have more seeming verse backing than a lot of ppl acknowledge. Add a "pious" reason for it, and it makes it even more convincing.
Word of Faith is not BIBLICAL. From its inspection to its teachings.
None of your “rebuttals” are convincing. Most of what you have said is based on a misinterpretation of Scripture based on Hyper Charismatic presuppositions.
Being “convincing” isn’t a goal of mine. Too subjective of a metric.
But if you can point to anything I said that was untrue in the video-that I’d be interested in. Please provide the quote. I’d be happy to issue a clarification or correction.