Having recently moved to Tulsa myself I have been forced into trying to wrap my head around WOF. This video is a God send for me. I have several friends and co workers that have rejected "church" because of WOF. While others who still associate with it, but acknowledge they don't agree with everything in the culture. Can't wait to read his book!
I think a lot of people are waking up to the modern WOF errors. My pastor who would still be considered WOF has been carefully untangling the web of false teachings that he was brought up in, and he has been able to do so without causing a church split which is amazing! WOF has brought many good things to the church, but unfortunately the excesses at every dangerous. I just hope people recognize that Hagin, the so called father of the WOF movement actually wrote a book specifically against the modern prosperity gospel - called "Midas Touch"
We are not supose to agree witn everything they say your supose to believe everything what God says in his word faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God, there is truths that God wants you to follow, God is love God's word is truth. Not to follow man follow God's Spirit, 😊
@carolblair2845 already there bible says all them things , God is a good God, meets our needs according to His Riches in Glory, Justin has problems He needs to open His Glory
I came out of the WOF in 2011. I was under Kenneth Copeland and the like and was ordained as an Elder in the WOF movement. Scary stuff going on there indeed. praise God He got me out of it 😃
@@thanevakarian9762 well the good, is believe it or not, some people have gotten saved in these ministries because if Gods word goes forth it won’t return back to Him void, so people can get saved. However, after that, it’s gets bad, from controlling, narcissistic pastors, them fleecing people over money, taking advantage of the poor, especially using their sickness to to get rich, paying for a miracle healing etc, always telling people God will always heal you, and then that person dies, to pastors taking all the money then leaving town, to using their power to sleep with people in the congregation, and then twisting scripture like, don’t touch Gods anointed to hush people from speaking up, yeah, I’ve seen and heard a lot.
I really love this channel. It’s become one of my favorites. I graduated from a reformed seminary but lean charismatic… when it comes to the gifts. I wrestle with the things you guys discuss so thank you for your channel. 💪🏻❤️
I strongly affirm what was said around 56:40 about "works." Brings back a memory from the late 1970s, when, for a time, the fellowship I was in went totally "gaga" into the word/faith movement. I remember when leadership saw the flaws in it, and one of the leaders gave a powerful teaching debunking it. I wish someone had made a recording of it, but I remember the last couple lines. It went something like "It's called 'faith'... but think about it. To receive from God, you have to confess right, have no bitterness in your heart, no unconfessed sin, no unforgiveness, can't have anyone around who doesn't have faith..." and he went on to list a bunch of things that the "faith teaching" held as necessary, or lack of such being the reason why the thing someone was having faith for didn't happen. The last line -- "It's called 'faith,' but in the end it's..." and he paused for a second and much of the congregation said it along with him "works."
Thanks for your review. People with 'miraculous gifts' can be ignored by orthodox evangelical churches. When that happens, churches like WoF may be their only option for teaching and fellowship. Remnant Radio is a big help in providing teaching that is sound biblically while addressing the practical concerns and questions of those using their spiritual gifts. Much appreciated. Keep up the good work.
Melissa I'd love it if you could do more direct interviews with WOF ministers! Many of them are waking up to the errors and I think these conversations are so helpful!
Wow that was a powerful statement when he said when you pray in faith when we get a answer we get part of the credit. It should always be all credit and glory to God. Great interview I follow his channel he was very insightful.
I went to a WOF Bible school for 3 years and know the ins and out. Faith in God goes upwards and the faith of God is basically God moving downwards through us to bring His will to pass through His church. You could call the Faith of God works of faith that the book of James addresses. I’m a AG minister and have kept the good aspects of WOF and left some of the doctrines that others on here have addressed as concerning.
I hope you see this comment. I would like to ask you some personal questions. I am also an AG minister, trying to lead a church through this discussion.
This is an exceptional talk because it clarifies the agency of God as a person when we pray, as opposed to some magical faith force that has creative ability in and of itself. Very helpful and something that deserves reinforcing. It also means that faith comes by hearing refers to learning about the character of God as opposed to some mechanistic confessional bondage.
Hey guys, this video has been so helpful. In the church I am a member of we have a mixture of folks and a number have backgrounds that tinged with WoF understandings. These things are causing difficulties and this video begins to give me understanding how talk with folks, since I now understand the worldview & ‘story’ that they working from.
When believers come out of cold dry churches and go to a WoF church it’s like Faith is alive. It’s so much more interactive… Jesus is real and He cares. Wonderful! I learned it’s never about money bc joy is not about money. God honors our giving… no matter what we are grateful to Him. When we live in gratitude our world view is the joy of Lord is my strength
I know that joy is important, but it's NOT 🚫 the only thing in the Bible😮At my FORMER WOF Church, the Pastor's wife (Pastor B), would get behind the pulpit and holler, "Joy, Joy, Joy. Pass me a jug of Joy." This got really old, because she would do this ALL THE TIME...!!! It was like, "You better be happy (OR ELSE)" I didn't like them (WOF teachers) trying to control my emotions... Whatever happened to FREE WILL??😮
I absolutely agree . I love my church. And if it's bringing you closer to God and you see fruit that's what matters . Not all WOF churches are to the extreme. I don't give or tithe only at the promise that God will multiply it but it ALL comes from God anyway.
Word of faith teaches delegated authority. I have the keys so I go open all the doors. I believe it is manifest authority. God is still over His gifts and we need Him to showup to perform the gift. We have the key but Spirit must still manifest
I was involved in a word of the Faith movement. From Indiana Dr. Hobart Freeman a brilliant teacher. Most of his teaching was very good. But he taught going to the Doctor that you were turning your back on God for healing. He used these scriptures Jermiah 17:5 with 2 Chronicles 16:12 about King Asa died, because he sought the Physcians and not the Lord. Many thought going to a doctor was like renouncing your Faith in God. Many died.
Fascinating. I just shared an Interview about African traditional religions and why our worldview has made Africa an incubator for the WOF/Prosperity Gospel in some of the worst ways. Then this was on my feeds the next day. Been studying WOF as I grew up in it also. Will be saving this to my resource list. Thank You
@davinadavid3309 It was called "African Traditional Religions and Christianity" on ACFARvideo youtube Channel. I'm not affiliated. It came up my feeds after I watched a teaching series about WOF.
@mayowalewis7709 It was called "African Traditional Religions and Christianity" on ACFARvideo youtube Channel. Im not affiliated. It came up my feeds after I watched a long series about WOF. Sorry didn't see y'all's comments before now.
Kenneth Hagin Sr. always said, “Take the hay from the sticks.” Within all movements there will be “sticks.” His message got twisted by many, but he was an honorable, faithful, Gift of God! Seek God for yourself (not movements) and you’ll know the Truth!
I am very much a Charismatic and I cut my teeth on a lot of Word of faith teaching, Hagin Sr. and Copeland in particular. In recent years, I have had a lot of questions. One doctrine that I had initially embraced but was challenged to scrutinize more closely was the so-called "Jesus died spiritually " doctrine. I was able to eventually reject it as heresy, but I don't believe that those who hold to it are damned.
@@markshaneh damned for understanding scripture wrong? I didn't realize it was perfect theology that saves us. For 10 years I beleived Jesus suffer in hell...does that mean I wasnt truly saved for 10 years lol we need more balance brother. I don't believe that to be true anymore, but my pastor does and most of my church does. But I can still fellowship and learn and grow because that doctrine does not influence the need of a savior nor does it change the message of the gospel.
The notion that Jesus died spiritually and went to hell to secure our Salvation adds to The Cross, and by adding to it, actually takes away from it. It is a very dangerous doctrine, not supported by Scripture
I can agree with you, I just never happened to encounter that 'doctrine' in any of my years in WoF. Just because He indeed descended into hell doesn't mean He 'died spiritually'.
Word of Faith: "Speak what you desire into reality!" James 4: "Now listen, you who say, “Today or tomorrow we will go to this or that city, spend a year there, carry on business and make money.” Why, you do not even know what will happen tomorrow. What is your life? You are a mist that appears for a little while and then vanishes. Instead, you ought to say, “If it is the Lord’s will, we will live and do this or that.” As it is, you boast in your arrogant schemes. All such boasting is evil."
My understanding is that it is not our faith that has power but the object of our faith that does. We don't control the object with our mind, it controls us. The only person we can completely trust and safely put our faith in is God.
@@lmorter7867 Im not sure what you mean by 'creative power in and of itself'. That is not what I said, rather that it seems God's 'doings' can depend on the level of human faith present. If the WOF view goes beyond that then I would disagree with it.
As a child, I spent 3 years in Tulsa, where my parents attended Rhema Bible Training Center, and we attended the church as well. It was the early 90s so the 'revial movement' was there. It was definitely a different kind of experience. I never knew what to think about it as I got older, but I knew something was off. I appreciate you guys putting this show together.
His definition of WoF was really helpful because I now realize this is the exact theology that I hear in my church every week that I don't like. I'm just tired of sermons and Bible studies about declaring healing and having promises of wealth and flourishing business, etc. I hear so much more of this unsubstantiated inspirational talk than I hear wholesome expository sermons with good exegesis.
I appreciate the grace by which the guest attempted to convey the word of faith world view. I consider myself a reformed Word of Faith Charismatic which might seem oxymoronic to some and I understand why. I would like to see a discussion on how the operation in the gifts of the Holy Spirit and five fold ministry are functionally and practically exercised in the WOF movement. This is where I begin to separate myself from being a WOF preacher to more of a preacher with faith if that makes any sense. Being either influenced by the word of faith, or having been a minister within the word of faith, for about 12 years, I can say that we are closely in line with the AOG, I have seen some sprinkles of what y’all would classify as NAR, practically and functionally, I have seen some sprinkles of new age unfortunately, especially because of the lack of statement of faith or categorical organization since most word of faith, churches are independent or non-denominational. What gives me a lot of hope for the movement to correct it’s projection is a Love for the word of God, and a love for prayer, and waiting on the lord.
My question is does what you believe about God’s Word make you want to be more like Jesus. Does it show you how to walk in the fruit of the spirit. Does what you believe about God’s Word help you walk in wisdom and forgiveness. Does it cause you to want to be grateful and encourage others. Or even pray and believe God for healing or to bless someone. Not sure how you would doctrinally, systematically, or theologically define that but that is what I have gleened from WOF for 35 years. I have seen and been a part of some powerful miracles by believing God’s word through the WOF teachings. To God be the Glory!!! Would love more interviews like this. Thank you guys for your kind interactions.
I was in the occult and learned meditation and soul travel and it looks like the hyper faith people are practicing the same things . They seem to be getting their theology from fallen angels that can grant them prosperity and power to hypnotize other believers .
@@edge2sword186 Basically being born--again got a lot of "monkeys" off my back... When I got saved, I walked out of the kingdom of darkness, into the Kingdom of Light (Where Jesus is)...Satan can't stand being around Jesus...I found out that I didn't have to "bounce my thoughts" to the back of the universe anymore...Jesus is with me and I don't have to do that...He is the Friend Who sticks closer than a brother😀💟🩵
@@sandythomas8911 I think there are a lot (or at least quite a few) mentally ill people in Word of Faith Churches...WOF Churches seem to draw those types of people into their Churches...My friend, Louisa, is bi--polar and she has been hospitalized for that (at least once) My other friend, Martha, has been hospitalized for some "un--nsmed mental problem as well...The Head Pastor of my "old" WOF Church landed up in a State Mental Institution in Minnesota, because hr "blew his mind" on illegal street drugs...To me, the "Prosperity" Churches are full of "whacky" people whu spend their time trying to speak things "into existence" and"ordering" angels to bring them money (NOW).!!...It would be funny, if it wasn't so SAD...I belonged to a WOF Church for about 36 years (since September 1984), so I know EXACTLY how they are 🤪♦️
Hey guys! Love the channel! I think if you really want the best explanation and example of what the standard WoF beliefs are, you guys should try setting something up with Keith Moore of Faith Life Church. He is the successor of Kenneth Hagen and probably is the closest representation of what the WoF movement started out as.
I think Rod Saunders should have been on this episode as well to provide a more balanced view of WoF, to get a more balanced approach. It seems to me that if you don't lean toward Reformed theology with some complimentarian view, there's somewhat of a target on your back.
he mentioned few extremes to avoid then in the same book taught the same thing so people can get into the same error again and again... no point writing the book
As a pastor in Canada, and having first pastored in a classical WOF church, I find that the excesses seem to be fewer in Canada, comparatively speaking. Perhaps it's our conservative culture but I've found that some of the rough edges have been 'filed down'. Great information! What I've found is that the greatest danger of the WOF is its attitude that they have the final and most complete revelation. The exclusivity and pride that flows from that has blinded them to much of the rest of the body of Christ and what we all have to offer. I would no longer classify our church as WOF, but has having some WOF roots, eating the grass and spitting the sticks. Thanks for all you guys do!
I think the only pride and exclusivity that flows from their sense of 'final' revelation is attached to the televangelists, who do seem to push the 'us and them' defensive postures. Believe it or not most WoF people on the ground do not follow televangelists anymore
Word of faith or not, when you see pastors living far above the means of the people they are ministering to (off the freewill offerings of those same people, no less) that is a huge red flag that this ministry is not of God.
Grace. Thank God He shows us all grace. Imagine the thousand shades of Christian belief, doctrine, and practice. I figure a lot of us are off on some point or other. Yet, God extends us grace. Sometimes we wrangle about words and fight over doctrines that have no eternal significance. Let’s extend each other some grace. Bottom line, if we’re not about worshipping God and winning souls, it means little. Some Pentecostal/Charismatic/ WoF (my tribe) types might lean too far into a better life on this earth. While some people are so into theology like it’s a hobby. Both got their feet firmly in the church praying for God to send the sinners in. That’s likely not going to happen. We have to get over the quibbling and get on about soul winning. Agreed?
Amen to this ! Why is the body of Christ dividing over secondary issues? Why would an unbeliever want to come sit amongst us to hear the gospel if they are aware of all this breaking down and criticizing from other brothers and sisters in Christ?!
I’m a current 2nd year Rhema Bible College student and would like to add the following to this conversation. Rhema identifies with Assemblies of God doctrinal teachings as Kenneth Hagin was an Assemblies of God trained minister. They also base a large portion of their theology off of Hagins visions and prophecies. I’m not his judge but I do not believe in his meetings with Jesus. It’s actually his visions that helped me to see through all the nonsense taught here. Also the bondage that the work of their taught faith puts you in made me clearly see that I wasn’t living by Gods grace but by my earned wage from my properly appropriated faith. I’ll be starting on my path towards seminary after I graduate from Rhema in a few weeks.
All Kenneth Hagin haa ever said is right. Every word. He walked very close to Lord Jesus. As Abraham walked with God, so did Kenneth Hagin. A 2nd year student and you dare to talk against the leader of faith. Thar shows how stupid you are. Repent of your sin. How dare you try and disgrace one of the finest men of all time. The father of faith. You would not be at RHEMA IF IT WAS NOT FOR HIM.
I'm about to go down this path soon. My last experience with WoF has woke me up! I feel like it's hurting Christians and causing a huge headache. I have family in WoF ans they think they are practically Jedi
My sister-in-law was a member of Livets Ord in Uppsala for many years and she loves that church. I have some friends who also were members there and miss the time at Livets Ord. But for me, I don't know. I have been at their Europakonferensen and it was nice. But something didn't feel right. I just couldn't exactly point what it was. Maybe it is because I couldn't understand Swedish so well at that time.
Speaking as an African, I’m seeing a growing number of people who are disillusioned with WOF teaching. There are many valiant adherents of course. But it’ll be interesting to see where things are in 10 years. One quality of truth is that it lasts. Will the WOF teaching maintain its hold in Africa? Time will tell
Great discussion, guys. Here are a couple of thoughts: 1. I have had people tell me that I am part of the WOF for years. Yet the way many of its aspects were described here, I would not agree with. So where does that leave me? Am I WOF, or not? And this is a fundamental issue with trying to define a movement instead of just asking individuals what they believe. 2. Piggybacking on the first point, I would encourage everyone not to assume that just because someone is labeled “Word of Faith” it means anything. Go to the source. If you’re interested in WOF, I do WOF apologetics (or, so I’ve been told) so does Rod Saunders on his channel Jew and Greek. 3. The Bible teaches faith in God, but Jesus also taught faith that what you say will come to pass. And faith that you have what you asked (Mark 11:22-24). It isn’t either/or, it’s both. He did not say “whosoever says to this mountain, be removed and does not doubt in his heart that I am the Messiah-it will be done.” He also didn’t say “whosoever says to this mountain be removed and does not doubt that God exists” He said BELIEVE THAT THOSE THINGS HE SAID SHALL COME TO PASS.” We may not like that. We may wish He had said otherwise. But He didn’t. We can either accept that, or reject it. But that’s what He said. Thanks guys.
I still have a few friends from my FORMER WOF Church (that I left a few years ago)...The keep telling me, "No matter what you do, you will always be a WOF person." Is that some kind of "curse" that I will be doomed with forever??
It is faith in God and faith of God. And definitely with a relationship. He is an awesome Heavenly Father. I personally think it is the way some people perceive the WOF. The power of the tongue and words are all through the Bible. Proverbs is full of scriptures about the power of our words. When I read the scriptures for myself the WOF makes a lot of sense to me.
QUESTION: How should we righty interpret the Word of Faith lynchpin verse of Mark 11:24 (Matthew 17:20, Luke 17:6)? Is Christ simply speaking to challenge our weak faith and to make us deal with the reality that we don't have enough faith to make mountains move? Also, how then should we consider Mark 2:5 (Matthew 9:2, Luke 5:20)?
I would suggest looking to St. John Chrysostom's homilies for the ancient understanding of these passages. He's a pre-schism Saint so his interpretation is going to be a pretty good indicator of what both East and West believed in the late 4th and early 5th century. You can find them archived online at New Advent.
As someone who came up WOF I have wrestled with mark 11:23. But, I beleive I found the balance! Many scholars beleive that "this mountain" Jesus is talking about is the temple mount and how it will be destroyed, and in turn it represents our Salvation and deliverance from the curse of the law. Secondly, when Mark 11 is read in context of Matt 17:20 and Luke 17:6 - we see all that is needed is a little bit of faith...meaning we are to be reliant on God alone and not our own measure of faith. Remember, the man at the pool of Bethesda had no faith for healing. Jesus did that in his own. Oftentimes WOF teaches to build up your own faith to a big level so that you can receive...but that is actually relying on self. Oftentimes, the WOF rightly interprets mark 11:23 by saying "have the God kind of faith" but the truth is, if we really think about it God only does things according to his will and power....so we cannot pretend to have the God kind of faith if: #1 - what we beleive for is not God's will #2 - we are trusting in our level of faith instead of the greatness of God's power. And these 2 point are MAJOR issues with most WOF teachings we hear today...it turns God into a genie who gives you whatever YOU want as long as you have confessed it by true and big faith.
1 John 5:14 And this is the confidence we have toward him, that if we ask anything _according to his will_ he hears us. WOF adherents focus on the "anything" and not so much on the "according to his will" part.
Faith in God is birthed out of fellowship with God. Mountains that we speak to it is not us speaking to them. This is from a fellowship with God and that is the birthing place of speaking to mountains. People struggle with the simplicity of the gospel. Jesus did works that he saw the father do. How? It was through the fellowship with the father through the Holy Spirit. Faith is spiritual not flesh. I do not have power to speak to mountains in the flesh. This is where many lose it. They go speaking and confessing outside a fellowship with GOD. Then you have those that do not understand the ministry of the Holy Spirit that now counter word of faith. Word of faith is Romans 10:4-10. As Christians we are word of faith if you are not you better check if you are a Christian. Word of faith is a word that is quickened by the Holy SPIRIT. WHAT WE NEED TO LOOK AT IS EXTREMISMS NOT LABELING.
This was so interesting. Thank you. Having now heard what they believe about Adam has given me understanding at how they arrive at their conclusions. My question would be what do they believe about sin and our need for redemption? Can't wait for your next follow-up video.
My church is WOF and pastor studied at Rhema under Kenneth Hagin. We believe like all other Born Again Christians should that every man is a sinner and we are saved by grace through faith. You must repent .
Also this idea that Adam was created as an equal to God or to be like him , I have NEVER even heard such a thing from any WOF teacher or believer. There are extremes to everything and I'm sure ill willed individuals have twisted scripture like this in the past but this is certainly not the norm or main teaching of creation and the fall that WOF churches teach.
I really think Hagin is really the most solid out of all those considered Word of Faith. I think people really started to take a dive after Hagin passed.
Bingo! I don't think many realize that he wrote a book called "Midas Touch" which actually spoke against the excesses we see with Copeland and the like....from what I understand, Hagin actually called together a group of his closest ministers including Copeland and told them about this book he was about to released and warned them not to go down the path of seeking riches...but they clearly ignored him in his old age.
I respectfully disagree. I had to leave WOF church, and it was such a sad experience. My Pastor said the exact same thing about Hagin, but unfortunately when the doctrine is flawed, Copeland and the like are the logical conclusion of the doctrine. WOF is not the true gospel message; Jesus did not promise guaranteed health and wealth, he told us to daily carry your cross and to suffer for Christs name.
@@followerofjesus931 I understand what you mean, but how does this even follow if Hagin himself wrote a book against the prosperity gospel and tried to correct Copeland and others? According to your logic, if someone raises up a minister and they fall into error, the person who raised up the minister is to blame? I don't think that tracks with the biblical narrative.
Hagin is just backtracking in the doctrine that he preached. I asked our pastor repeatedly in private if healing was guaranteed in this life, and he said according to Isaiah 53, and because Jesus healed everyone he encountered healing is guaranteed. Logically, according to that teaching, then none of us should ever die or get sick. This is the problem with Dominionism and other WOF doctrine. The “extremes” of the doctrine are not the problem, it’s the doctrine itself. I attended that church for 2 years, and the emphasis was always on what is our rights as “sons of God”. Our sinful nature and our suffering as a result of following Jesus was a footnote. Our pastor repeatedly said how upset he got when others would bring up Jobs suffering, almost like it was a lesser part of the Bible. I have many friends still in the WOF movement, and I believe they are Christians, just misguided. But alas, I admit I also am in trying to understand the truth of God and don’t have perfect understanding of the scripture, and grace to all is required. Blessings
Respectfully, Hagin's doctrine is just as much at fault. "Yes, sin, sickness and disease, spiritual death, poverty and everything else that's of the devil once ruled us. But now, bless God, WE rule them - for this is the Day of Dominion!" ~ Kenneth E. Hagin This is Dominionism teaching, putting our will above Gods "Faith changes hope into reality." ~ Kenneth E. Hagin Faith itself is not the "power vessel", it's IN WHOM we have our Faith. There are many other quotes I could post, but ultimately WOF teaching places our faith above everything else, including Gods Sovereignty. Hagin was one of the first to spread this message and responsible for its dissemination.
You ask for a WoF statement of faith. My doctoral research proposes a structural theology of the movements doctrine, which can be used as a tool for defining WoF theology and identifying adherents. Other than that, as Mikael says, most WoF ministries have AoG statements. Let me know if you want to hear more.
@@TheRemnantRadio Maybe, but, in the meantime, if you want a tool which helps with the knotty questions of definitions and inter-relations between the different the movement's theological features let me know.
@@TheRemnantRadio Perhaps they just don't want to fit into your box. We love to put people, and God into a box, and then condemn the box without hearing what they are meaning. Living faith is in a living God and He will not fit into our box.
QUESTION: While I may have my own answer, I am curious to hear your response: If we are not heirs of Christ's Lordship and power to create, what are we heirs of? From another perspective, if being made in the Image of God does not mean we embody his creative power (i.e. speak things into reality), what does it mean?
Micheal Heiser has some good comments about being an image bearer. It's not that you're a clone of God but more of an ambassador. He works through you on the earth. I also wouldn't limit your creative power to what you speak. Man has created some amazing through the use of his hands.
Perhaps a another question is "if we are heirs, when do we receive the inheritance?" Both aspects of receiving the inheritance (what and when) are important when deciding what it "should" look like.
Where does the Bible teach that “ we are heirs of Christ’s lordship and power to create “ and your scriptural defence must be very clear, because my bible doesn’t have anything close to saying I have Christ’s “lordship” or power to “create” ???
I always took it to mean that we are relational, it's how we live and love. We have the ability to reason, we have agency and choose to do something or not to do it and we are moral creatures. We know instinctively when we see unfairness, recoil at cruelty. We are creative too, sometimes for no other reason than the joy of creating, (not in the way God is,) but creative nonetheless. I think most of that falls under the Substantive view of Imago Dei. Others see it as being created in such a way as to represent on Earth what God has over the entire universe. God made us as creatures able to subdue the earth, to have dominion over it and all living things on it and in it. I think that's what they call the Functional view, which I think was Heisers? There are 3 or 4 different views in Christian theology. I'm sure a quick search will give you an outline of each one.
@@markshaneh Seated with Christ in the heavenlies, Colossians. Also if we are heirs of God we are co-heirs with Christ, sharing His glory as well as His sufferings Romans 8:27. If we have NO 'power to create', we certainly would not share in His glory either.
So happy with this episode and relate with Mikael. Curious question: Do you think Derek Prince in anyway WOF? Though I like to believe he is not. Thanks.
I think Word of Faith and the Prosperity Gospel are basically the same thing...WOF teachings CONTAIN the Prosperity and "Health/Wealth Gospels" that are being taught by Kenneth Copeland (and others like him)💔
Same theology that teachs divine health, wealth is a sign of faith/ spirituality, Jesus suffered in Hell, believers are little gods with creative power, Jesus was not diety until He was baptized and speaking negative reality curses you. The "little gods" thing is exactly what the serpent temped Eve with, being "like God." EECKS, RUN!
This is a good discussion, but I wish you would invite a WoF teacher of sorts to have a discussion with. The point of the show is to reach across theological lines, and you guys say WoF are brothers but giving them the Anakin Skywalker treatment "On the council, but not granted the rank of master".
QUESTION(s): 1: how practically and to what extent if at all are we as believers in Jesus “involved” in the appropriation of His supernatural promises and blessings (for ourselves and others)? While yes they are grace-given, do we have any involvement at all, and if yes, practically how and to what extent? 2: does the answer hinge on subscribing to a particular eschatological viewpoint (now/not yet : pre-mil, a-mil, post-mil, obviously- kingdom now would have implications for answers here) 3: Based on above answers, which Biblical promises/blessings (OT - NT, some or both?) should we hope for to be appropriated by Him in our lives “before” the full realization in the new heavens and new earth?
Let’s be honest, if you line up WOF teaching, it just doesn’t line up with scriptures that is kept in context. And just look at how Jesus and disciples lived their lives, it’s cost them their lives, was it anything like what the WOF silver tongue preacher portray ?
I think it's a balance of God's sovereignty and man's authority. Jesus gave us the authority to do various things in His name but at the same time He only did what He saw the Father doing. He operated using the gifts of the Holy Spirit as should we but He also communed with God in personal devotion and prayer, receiving words of knowledge etc We need both. An utter reverence for what God is doing in a given situation but also knowing that He has given us the authority as believers to carry out those things in His name. Some days Jesus healed, other days He preached, other days He fed people, other days He prayed alone or called Zacchaeus down from the tree to get him to repent God's sovereignty and man's authority, in His name and under His direction. It's not let's just say whatever we want in His name and that's it, like a formula.
I spent 15 years under hobart freeman. I got a great edication from a great theologian. I am thankful for knowing the word. But really. Isnt it about where our heart is. What am i seeking....really! Heresy is when you destroy the 3/1 ... thanks to remnant radio i continue to learn amd adjust my theology and my heart...
I’ve been in and around Word of Faith churches since 1980. There are some things I raise an eyebrow about. But none that affects one’s salvation. The thing though that bugs me more is unfair criticism. Particularly when Christians are questioning the motives and even the salvation of other Christians. No one in the WoF movement that I’ve ever heard, and I’ve heard most all of the big names, ever do that. I would suggest some of y’all check yourself when questioning other’s motives. PS It’s not word/faith, it’s the word of faith as in scripture, Romans 10:8, or of course, Word of Faith when using it as a name. Anytime I read or hear someone use the term word/faith I know they are ill informed. Probably listened to one of those heresy hunters / “discernment” videos.
Doesn't the Word Of Faith teach that Jesus was born again in hell? And they He fought the devil in hell? that is blant heresy if they hold to that teaching
I wouldn't say blatant Hersey as in damnable to hell. They use prooftexts for it, albeit wrongly interpreted. Main one being col 2:15 - they would kinda rightly surmise - "how do you spoil principalities if you aren't in hell?" And how eph 4 and act 2:24 says Jesus descended to hell. I used to believe in it too and was definitely still saved. We just need to remember that perfect theology isn't what saves. They just take these verses at face value and don't do more digging. Also, born again Jesus simply comes from col 1:18 - Jesus is first born from the dead. And in like manner we are crucified with Christ and dead and risen to new life - ie: born again. I don't like using the term because many think this heretical to think Jesus was born again, but scripture pretty clearly leads you to beleive that. He was born of Mary, died, and was risen back to life. Not of necessity to save himself, but to save humanity.
@@BEABEREAN10 I heard a pastor teach on that, and I do believe that Jesus did descend to hades when he died. And here are the passages he used to justify his viewpoint. He talked about how Sheol, the place of the dead, had 2 sections - Abraham's bossom, and the place of torment, which we know to be hell, according to Luke 16:19-31. Essentially, all the Spirits of the departed went to Sheol when they died. The righteous to Abraham's bossom and the unrighteous to hell. And from Acts 2:25-27, it seems Jesus went to Sheol when he died. Ephesians 4:9-10 also talks about how Jesus descended to the lower parts of the earth. 1 Peter 3:19-20- also talks about how Jesus, after being made alive in the Spirit, went and proclaimed to the imprisoned "who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built." (I believe these to be the Angels that sinned, according to 2 Peter 2:4 and Jude 1:6)
Word of Faith teachers do not formulate their beliefs arbitrarily; instead, their theological perspective is derived from their interpretation of particular scriptures. While I hold an appreciation for Remnant Radio's ministry, the recent broadcast did not introduce any novel insights, as none of the assertions made were substantiated with scriptural references. I eagerly anticipate future discussions that delve into the specific scriptures underpinning their doctrinal framework, as Josh alluded to during the broadcast. This will undoubtedly provide a more comprehensive and scripturally grounded exploration of their worldview.
Thank you so much for this, expresses so clearly my concerns about my church. Been gently trying to talk to my pastor about this and will share with him- but wondering your thoughts on sharing with the rest of the congregation. Would it be appropriate to send out in our group chat or would that be like undermining my pastor?
Wow! The ‘Eden’ topic! Talk about reading into the Scripture & giving it ‘their own twist’ & interpretation, and an interpretation that is not backed up by Scripture! WOF teachings were a part of my life for many years. So happy that God opened my eyes!!
As a member of a WOF church ( pastor went to Rhema directly under Kenneth Hagin) i have never heard that version of the Creation of Adam and Eden before. I find it hard to believe that Kenneth Hagin taught that Adam was created as an equal to God.
Every move of God throughout Church history emphasizes the truths that God is, at that present time, using his Church to convey. Jesus said He will build His Church. We lost a lot through the 1000 years of dark ages and the the major Truth God used to bring us out of that period is Justification by Faith alone. This reformation of the 1500s was, I believe, a first step to God re-establishing His Church and it HAD to be this truth because it is the foundation all other true moves of God are built on. Soon to follow were other movements and revivals that built upon that such as Holiness. There were others that God used between 1500 and 1900. In the beginning of the 1900s the Pentecostal movement began. Step by Step you can see Jesus building His Church using different groups of people. EVERY group taught their given Truth to reestablish it in the earth after the dark ages. And EVERY group went overboard and and had errors but it didn't nullify their calling. I believe one of the things, if not the main thing, that God has used the WOF movement for is to show us God's favor and that he actually does want to bless us and we like every other group, has gone overboard. Every new move of God has it's detractors. Every new move it's loonies. When I study how God has blessed his people throughout the ages in scripture, I see enough evidence that He DOES want to bless me and give me favor. And I don't limit that to just "spiritual blessings". There has been other movements since the WOF movement began in earnest in the 60-70s and to the degree you participate in them you can partake of their particular kind of blessings (and unfortunately error too) such as the Prophetic movement that began in the 80s and the Apostolic that began in the 90s. What is it all culminating in? I don't see everything of course but one thing Eph 4:11 seems to says is that when people partake in the ministries of all the offices (Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors and Teachers) THEN they are able to be fully equipped for service. No longer will it just be the superstar preacher laying hands on the sick (etc), the fuller Body of Christ will be enacting these things in kitchens, living rooms and on the streets! Don't be afraid of what might be an actual move of God, even when the imperfect people God is using fail. Be a student of what God is doing in the earth today.
WOF only seems to work for the people at the top of the food chain . Ken Copeland made me run from their movement when he said Jesus died spiritually and he became a sinner that the devils tourmented in hell for 3 days until the father could no longer stand it and resurrected him. Copeland said he could do the same sacrifice Jesus did on the cross and bring salvation to the world . Joyce Myers aggrees with Ken on his theolog so all the good she does is cancelled out . Seed faith giving is not biblical unless God is telling you to 23:30 give . The idea that we become little gods here and now is similar to Mormon beliefs and Buddhist beliefs .
Most aberrations will come to this end. There are cults with Christian expression selling this. No coincidence the Serpent tempted Eve in this manner, 'You will not surely die. For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.' ESV (Ge 3:4-5). (2016). Crossway Bibles.
I agree these are errant doctrines for sure, but they weren't always taught in WOF and Hagin was much more balanced even when he taught Jesus spiritual suffering and even the hint of little God's.
@@BEABEREAN10 When Jesus said it is Finished sin was defeated at that point in time . The problem with WOF is the same as the Gnostic Gospels in the early church . Jesus spoke about the Nicolaitans with his 7 epistles in the book of revelation . The book of Jude also refers to the WOF fruitless doctrines and false teachings . It's another religion that uses the bible out of context and it is Deadly Mechanical with many formulas that don't work.
Kenneth Hagins wrote a book called the Midas Touch where i admitted past mistakes and statements about prosperity gospel.He also admitted sickness was part of the Christian life and died of that. The truth is the big names of the WOF are not that WOF, it is harder to see the difference between the apostolic Bill HAMON type of churches and some WOF churches. Creflo Dollar, Bill Winston are softer in the faith and prosperity talk. The Terri Savelle, Jeremy Pearsons are also on softer version and not different from IHOP or other charismatic preachers.
Determining the writings of EW Kenyon and Kenneth Hagin.. I understand the academically and Theological approaches and it is helpful. But to determine the legitimacy of this movement or any other movement ..all one has to do is to be a Berean and search the scriptures.. having said that any movement that will.. twist.. the doctrine of the atonement that involves the blood sacrifice of Christ physical suffering on the cross is heretical. And for the sakes of the body of Christ this must be stated first and foremost then we seek to help those that have entered into false teaching🙂
Kenneth Begin was the greatest Bible teacher in the last one hundred years at least. I have followed the WoF for over 40 years. It has been a wonderful blessing.
I guess that's your opinion. It's a free country...I belonged to a WOF Church for about 37 years (from Sept. 1984 until the end of May 2021)...I got tired of being controlled and being criticized if I didn't do everything perfectly...Like: "Don't take notes in Church..Pay attention.. If you don't speak in tongues, something is wrong with you.. Speak positively all the time (OR ELSE) Go to every single Church service, every single week, etc...And don't forget that you are a "Little God," so you better ACT LIKE ONE...!!!😮
@@caroleimani9754 I am sorry that you have had a bad experience in a WOF church. But please understand that ANY kind of church can be toxic. I have been in many kinds of churches. Some were good and others were not. I do not think that their theology was generally the problem. It was the attitudes of the people and/or the minister. My comments (opinion) had nothing to do with any particular church but on Hagin's teaching. It has been a great blessing to me for well over 40 years. I am an educated Bible teacher with a Masters in Theology.
No metanarrative ? A door immediately opens for the scarcely disguised gnostics- Kenyon and Hagin. The myth of gift giving. It just demeans. How difficult is it to avoid this actual demeaning of mankind - not the opposite as they maintain- and accompanying toxic mist? Moreover , what about the fellow "contractual" travellers..like Andrew Wommack? Understand the Kingdom. Drop the gnostic / greek thinking.
It sounds to me like word of faith fails to recognize “realized eschatology” and the already/not yet theology of the NT. Even supposing that Adam is everything they say he was (which doesn’t seem biblical to me), we still wouldn’t experience it until after the resurrection.
But don’t the WOF people still have faith in God just they’re believing God has given them a certain level of authority over certain things? It’s like if you’re Father gives you the keys to the car, gives you some rules what you can and can’t do with it. You’re trusting in yourself to be able to operate the vehicle because you trust in your fathers permission he’s given you…. Idk how to articulate it. My Father gave me this blessing and I trust in him to be telling me the truth about it kind of thing It’s a strange subject to think about and discuss. Edit: maybe this is a simpler way of looking at it. God has given us some amount of authority through Jesus to do certain things within his will. The authority through Jesus aka Gods will is what changes things not faith. Our faith is still needed for it to work though.
Kenneth Hagin senior is one of the most beautiful christians of all time. Born prem, a heart that was not right like it should be. The doctors did nit give him much time to live. Bed ridden at the age of 17, the Lord appeared to him and said one morning at 11 o clock. Ought not folks to be up at this time of the day. Kenneth Hagin weak beyond words tried to sit up and get out of bed. He fell and tried again and again. It took all his strength but he was a chosen vessel unto the Lord. God was healing his heart and kidneys and everything that was deformed in his body. God raised him up and said go and teach my people faiith and so he did. I thank God for him. I thank God for his teachings. Authority of the believer is an anointed book. I advise all christians to read it You dare to come against a precious saint of God and speak your lies and filth about him. You can be wiped off the face of this earth. You are a wicked man
The object of one’s faith is the key. Biblical, exegetical, “word of faith” is Romans chp 10 dealing with one’s salvation (faith/confession in Jesus as Lord). What the “Word-Faith” folks did was twist that concept, eisegetically, to make the object of one’s faith, “their faith”, to basically trust in this life and feed their own greed. Poor people are typically suseptible to these teachings because of the promised formula, which ultimately only ever enriches the “ministry” peddling it.
i appreciate you and your guests efforts but have to observe that there was nothing new presented here that Robert Bowman Jr. didn’t already describe and refute in his 2001 book The Word-Faith Controversy. wrap it in all the polysyllabic “meta narrative” language you like but it still comes down to a works based theology that only bears fruit FOR the people at the top of the pyramid and likely shipwrecks the saving faith of more believers than it builds up.
Where dose laying hands and praying for the sick come into play here? I know it’s not me that will be doing the healing. I know God isn’t like oh shoot didn’t realize he was sick lol but we have faith in Gods goodness, willingness and power to heal. Do we not speak to these ailments in Jesus name? With “expectant” faithfulness in God? What about casting out demonic spirits? I come from charismatic Pentecostal roots and I’m genuinely curious and really starting to dig deep into scripture and learn what is truth and what without even realizing is just taught doctrines. Thank you all for insight and your grace.
Thank you Remnant...2 Corinthians 11 "... your mind should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ" so if your wrestling with your theology or faith in Jesus Christ something is corrupted!
‘Adam had ‘the faith of GOD’, and authority over spiritual beings (angel). I never heard of that. I can be defined as a world of faith teaching follower, but never heard of that. Particularly becos ….I don’t see any biblical based (scriptures) to support it. Anyone has any clarity to bring to the his? Did I miss something ?
Im trying to understand, is the speaker making a distinction of a particular movement that seem to be operating from a specific revelation of the Scriptures, where proponets have gone off in some points, or is he trying to suggest the revelation of the word of faith is false to begin with (because it preaches healing, prosperity, victory etc.)?
the very phrase "faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God" cannot be grammatically unpacked for exegesis. Try pointing out sometime to WOFer the underlying text and translation that say "word of Christ".
wof people are basically people trying to accept and believe what Jesus said in Mk 11:23-24. God knows how many other groups/churches preach and teach and call those of us who love those verses heretics, false and wolves. What do those verses mean? To what degree can we believe them? what limitation should be placed on them? Should we follow this person who puts one kind of limitations on that passage or that person? To those that are critical of us for trying to live those verses out in our everyday lives, making many many mistakes while doing so, what would you have us do concerning those verses? Should we accept your limitations that those verses only apply to "spiritual blessings"? Although this verse can certainly provide that, Jesus put no limitations on the verses saying so. Varying wof teachers have tried to bring some balance to the verses by saying you can believe for what God promises in His word. Much of the problem is Calvinist teachings that seek to tell us that everything that happens is God's will and therefore there is no reason to ever expect, in faith, for answered prayer bc you just never know God's will; there are no/few promises to claim. Jesus said those words and I believe them. I haven't ever lived in them fully but I still believe them just as I believe in walking sin-free but haven't ever fully lived in that either
Q: my sister wouldn’t say she’s in the word of faith movement but she Defs Uses the name of Jesus in that way.. there is no power in purely the name of Jesus right?
I have been blessed by watch you call Word of Faith but I don"t yjonk Ive ever heard of the thousands of sermons watched them say they were Word of Faith . Faith is big in the Bible look it up
Attended wof church for more years than I like to admit. My wife and I were even on staff for several years. When you cherry pick scriptures and misrepresent the context you can make the Bible appear to say what it doesn't say. When you admixture some truth with with conjecture-supposition-presumption-speculation-and human reasoning you are headed for a train wreck.
Having recently moved to Tulsa myself I have been forced into trying to wrap my head around WOF. This video is a God send for me. I have several friends and co workers that have rejected "church" because of WOF. While others who still associate with it, but acknowledge they don't agree with everything in the culture. Can't wait to read his book!
I think a lot of people are waking up to the modern WOF errors. My pastor who would still be considered WOF has been carefully untangling the web of false teachings that he was brought up in, and he has been able to do so without causing a church split which is amazing!
WOF has brought many good things to the church, but unfortunately the excesses at every dangerous. I just hope people recognize that Hagin, the so called father of the WOF movement actually wrote a book specifically against the modern prosperity gospel - called "Midas Touch"
"THE MIDAS TOUCH @@BEABEREAN10
We are not supose to agree witn everything they say your supose to believe everything what God says in his word faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God, there is truths that God wants you to follow, God is love God's word is truth. Not to follow man follow God's Spirit, 😊
Pick up your Bible, read it, and get alone with the Holy Spirit and ask for wisdom and discernment!
@carolblair2845 already there bible says all them things , God is a good God, meets our needs according to His Riches in Glory, Justin has problems He needs to open His Glory
This is by far been your best episode, and this dude is legit. Please have him on many more times.
I came out of the WOF in 2011. I was under Kenneth Copeland and the like and was ordained as an Elder in the WOF movement. Scary stuff going on there indeed. praise God He got me out of it 😃
Can you elaborate on some of the good the bad and the ugly you’ve seen?
@@thanevakarian9762 well the good, is believe it or not, some people have gotten saved in these ministries because if Gods word goes forth it won’t return back to Him void, so people can get saved. However, after that, it’s gets bad, from controlling, narcissistic pastors, them fleecing people over money, taking advantage of the poor, especially using their sickness to to get rich, paying for a miracle healing etc, always telling people God will always heal you, and then that person dies, to pastors taking all the money then leaving town, to using their power to sleep with people in the congregation, and then twisting scripture like, don’t touch Gods anointed to hush people from speaking up, yeah, I’ve seen and heard a lot.
@@thanevakarian9762 How about "HAVING WHAT YOU SAY?" Is God a genie in a magic lamp?
I really love this channel. It’s become one of my favorites. I graduated from a reformed seminary but lean charismatic… when it comes to the gifts. I wrestle with the things you guys discuss so thank you for your channel. 💪🏻❤️
I strongly affirm what was said around 56:40 about "works." Brings back a memory from the late 1970s, when, for a time, the fellowship I was in went totally "gaga" into the word/faith movement. I remember when leadership saw the flaws in it, and one of the leaders gave a powerful teaching debunking it. I wish someone had made a recording of it, but I remember the last couple lines. It went something like "It's called 'faith'... but think about it. To receive from God, you have to confess right, have no bitterness in your heart, no unconfessed sin, no unforgiveness, can't have anyone around who doesn't have faith..." and he went on to list a bunch of things that the "faith teaching" held as necessary, or lack of such being the reason why the thing someone was having faith for didn't happen. The last line -- "It's called 'faith,' but in the end it's..." and he paused for a second and much of the congregation said it along with him "works."
AMEN Brother!!!
Haha. I love that. Wish I had sat in that service.
THIS! It is repackaged as “faith” but In application it’s exhausting trying to do “works” and stay “plugged in”
Rod Saunders would have been another helpful voice in this discussion
Agreed!!!
Thanks for your review. People with 'miraculous gifts' can be ignored by orthodox evangelical churches. When that happens, churches like WoF may be their only option for teaching and fellowship. Remnant Radio is a big help in providing teaching that is sound biblically while addressing the practical concerns and questions of those using their spiritual gifts. Much appreciated. Keep up the good work.
This was a great interview. 🙏
Thanks, Melissa
Melissa I'd love it if you could do more direct interviews with WOF ministers! Many of them are waking up to the errors and I think these conversations are so helpful!
Wow that was a powerful statement when he said
when you pray in faith when we get a answer we get part of the credit.
It should always be all credit and glory to God. Great interview I follow his channel he was very insightful.
41:00 I grew up and still am Charismatic and never heard of Faith being a force...never heard this inserted in my church
I went to a WOF Bible school for 3 years and know the ins and out. Faith in God goes upwards and the faith of God is basically God moving downwards through us to bring His will to pass through His church. You could call the Faith of God works of faith that the book of James addresses. I’m a AG minister and have kept the good aspects of WOF and left some of the doctrines that others on here have addressed as concerning.
I hope you see this comment. I would like to ask you some personal questions. I am also an AG minister, trying to lead a church through this discussion.
This is an exceptional talk because it clarifies the agency of God as a person when we pray, as opposed to some magical faith force that has creative ability in and of itself. Very helpful and something that deserves reinforcing. It also means that faith comes by hearing refers to learning about the character of God as opposed to some mechanistic confessional bondage.
Can you see the gnosticism in their views = thats what it is at its heart...
Mankind is always looking for the formula, so they can be in control and feed ego since WOF is all about me!
Hey guys, this video has been so helpful. In the church I am a member of we have a mixture of folks and a number have backgrounds that tinged with WoF understandings. These things are causing difficulties and this video begins to give me understanding how talk with folks, since I now understand the worldview & ‘story’ that they working from.
When believers come out of cold dry churches and go to a WoF church it’s like Faith is alive. It’s so much more interactive… Jesus is real and He cares. Wonderful! I learned it’s never about money bc joy is not about money. God honors our giving… no matter what we are grateful to Him. When we live in gratitude our world view is the joy of Lord is my strength
I know that joy is important, but it's NOT 🚫 the only thing in the Bible😮At my FORMER WOF Church, the Pastor's wife (Pastor B), would get behind the pulpit and holler, "Joy, Joy, Joy. Pass me a jug of Joy." This got really old, because she would do this ALL THE TIME...!!! It was like, "You better be happy (OR ELSE)" I didn't like them (WOF teachers) trying to control my emotions... Whatever happened to FREE WILL??😮
I absolutely agree . I love my church. And if it's bringing you closer to God and you see fruit that's what matters . Not all WOF churches are to the extreme. I don't give or tithe only at the promise that God will multiply it but it ALL comes from God anyway.
Tack för en mycket intressant intervju👍😊!!
Word of faith teaches delegated authority. I have the keys so I go open all the doors. I believe it is manifest authority. God is still over His gifts and we need Him to showup to perform the gift. We have the key but Spirit must still manifest
I was involved in a word of the Faith movement. From Indiana Dr. Hobart Freeman a brilliant teacher. Most of his teaching was very good. But he taught going to the Doctor that you were turning your back on God for healing. He used these scriptures
Jermiah 17:5 with 2 Chronicles 16:12 about King Asa died, because he sought the Physcians and not the Lord. Many thought going to a doctor was like renouncing your Faith in God. Many died.
I don't think he was "a brilliant theologian" because of what he said about Doctors...And people died?😮😮
@@caroleimani9754 Yeah, horrifying!
Fascinating. I just shared an Interview about African traditional religions and why our worldview has made Africa an incubator for the WOF/Prosperity Gospel in some of the worst ways. Then this was on my feeds the next day. Been studying WOF as I grew up in it also. Will be saving this to my resource list. Thank You
Where can we find this interview? Sounds interesting
I would love to hear this interview. Please share. As a member of the African (Nigerian) diaspora, I've been thinking about this for the last 2 years
@davinadavid3309 It was called "African Traditional Religions and Christianity" on ACFARvideo youtube Channel. I'm not affiliated. It came up my feeds after I watched a teaching series about WOF.
@mayowalewis7709 It was called "African Traditional Religions and Christianity" on ACFARvideo youtube Channel. Im not affiliated. It came up my feeds after I watched a long series about WOF. Sorry didn't see y'all's comments before now.
A good book to read on Word Of Faith is a Different Gospel by D.R. McConnell
A good book about WOF is A Different Gospel by D.R McConnell
Kenneth Hagin Sr. always said, “Take the hay from the sticks.” Within all movements there will be “sticks.” His message got twisted by many, but he was an honorable, faithful, Gift of God! Seek God for yourself (not movements) and you’ll know the Truth!
Amen
Not my tribe but I know many who love Jesus, live unselfishly, and walk in Biblical holiness....
I am very much a Charismatic and I cut my teeth on a lot of Word of faith teaching, Hagin Sr. and Copeland in particular. In recent years, I have had a lot of questions. One doctrine that I had initially embraced but was challenged to scrutinize more closely was the so-called "Jesus died spiritually " doctrine. I was able to eventually reject it as heresy, but I don't believe that those who hold to it are damned.
They are not damned, but I think they are blinded to the real Truth.......
But you don’t know if their dammed.
@@markshaneh damned for understanding scripture wrong? I didn't realize it was perfect theology that saves us.
For 10 years I beleived Jesus suffer in hell...does that mean I wasnt truly saved for 10 years lol we need more balance brother. I don't believe that to be true anymore, but my pastor does and most of my church does. But I can still fellowship and learn and grow because that doctrine does not influence the need of a savior nor does it change the message of the gospel.
The notion that Jesus died spiritually and went to hell to secure our Salvation adds to The Cross, and by adding to it, actually takes away from it. It is a very dangerous doctrine, not supported by Scripture
I can agree with you, I just never happened to encounter that 'doctrine' in any of my years in WoF.
Just because He indeed descended into hell doesn't mean He 'died spiritually'.
Word of Faith: "Speak what you desire into reality!"
James 4: "Now listen, you who say, “Today or tomorrow we will go to this or that city, spend a year there, carry on business and make money.” Why, you do not even know what will happen tomorrow. What is your life? You are a mist that appears for a little while and then vanishes. Instead, you ought to say, “If it is the Lord’s will, we will live and do this or that.” As it is, you boast in your arrogant schemes. All such boasting is evil."
Very helpful.
Thanks JL and Basement Boi.
My understanding is that it is not our faith that has power but the object of our faith that does. We don't control the object with our mind, it controls us. The only person we can completely trust and safely put our faith in is God.
But there are examples in the NT which seem to contradict such a view. That our 'faith' is very important, not just the One one has faith in.
@@PC-vg8vn Can you give me an example where it says that our faith has creative power in and of itself?
@@lmorter7867 Im not sure what you mean by 'creative power in and of itself'. That is not what I said, rather that it seems God's 'doings' can depend on the level of human faith present. If the WOF view goes beyond that then I would disagree with it.
As a child, I spent 3 years in Tulsa, where my parents attended Rhema Bible Training Center, and we attended the church as well. It was the early 90s so the 'revial movement' was there. It was definitely a different kind of experience. I never knew what to think about it as I got older, but I knew something was off. I appreciate you guys putting this show together.
His definition of WoF was really helpful because I now realize this is the exact theology that I hear in my church every week that I don't like. I'm just tired of sermons and Bible studies about declaring healing and having promises of wealth and flourishing business, etc. I hear so much more of this unsubstantiated inspirational talk than I hear wholesome expository sermons with good exegesis.
I appreciate the grace by which the guest attempted to convey the word of faith world view.
I consider myself a reformed Word of Faith Charismatic which might seem oxymoronic to some and I understand why.
I would like to see a discussion on how the operation in the gifts of the Holy Spirit and five fold ministry are functionally and practically exercised in the WOF movement. This is where I begin to separate myself from being a WOF preacher to more of a preacher with faith if that makes any sense.
Being either influenced by the word of faith, or having been a minister within the word of faith, for about 12 years, I can say that we are closely in line with the AOG, I have seen some sprinkles of what y’all would classify as NAR, practically and functionally, I have seen some sprinkles of new age unfortunately, especially because of the lack of statement of faith or categorical organization since most word of faith, churches are independent or non-denominational.
What gives me a lot of hope for the movement to correct it’s projection is a Love for the word of God, and a love for prayer, and waiting on the lord.
My question is does what you believe about God’s Word make you want to be more like Jesus. Does it show you how to walk in the fruit of the spirit. Does what you believe about God’s Word help you walk in wisdom and forgiveness. Does it cause you to want to be grateful and encourage others. Or even pray and believe God for healing or to bless someone. Not sure how you would doctrinally, systematically, or theologically define that but that is what I have gleened from WOF for 35 years. I have seen and been a part of some powerful miracles by believing God’s word through the WOF teachings. To God be the Glory!!! Would love more interviews like this. Thank you guys for your kind interactions.
I was in the occult and learned meditation and soul travel and it looks like the hyper faith people are practicing the same things . They seem to be getting their theology from fallen angels that can grant them prosperity and power to hypnotize other believers .
Before I got saved, I believed in Astral Projection...I think WOF people are doing that same thing...(Especially Kat Kerr).......
@@caroleimani9754 It could be exactly what they are doing .How did you get delivered of those occult demons ?
@@caroleimani9754 katkerr is mentally ill, and Not an example of WoF.
@@edge2sword186 Basically being born--again got a lot of "monkeys" off my back... When I got saved, I walked out of the kingdom of darkness, into the Kingdom of Light (Where Jesus is)...Satan can't stand being around Jesus...I found out that I didn't have to "bounce my thoughts" to the back of the universe anymore...Jesus is with me and I don't have to do that...He is the Friend Who sticks closer than a brother😀💟🩵
@@sandythomas8911 I think there are a lot (or at least quite a few) mentally ill people in Word of Faith Churches...WOF Churches seem to draw those types of people into their Churches...My friend, Louisa, is bi--polar and she has been hospitalized for that (at least once) My other friend, Martha, has been hospitalized for some "un--nsmed mental problem as well...The Head Pastor of my "old" WOF Church landed up in a State Mental Institution in Minnesota, because hr "blew his mind" on illegal street drugs...To me, the "Prosperity" Churches are full of "whacky" people whu spend their time trying to speak things "into existence" and"ordering" angels to bring them money (NOW).!!...It would be funny, if it wasn't so SAD...I belonged to a WOF Church for about 36 years (since September 1984), so I know EXACTLY how they are 🤪♦️
Hey guys! Love the channel! I think if you really want the best explanation and example of what the standard WoF beliefs are, you guys should try setting something up with Keith Moore of Faith Life Church. He is the successor of Kenneth Hagen and probably is the closest representation of what the WoF movement started out as.
Great episode!
I think Rod Saunders should have been on this episode as well to provide a more balanced view of WoF, to get a more balanced approach. It seems to me that if you don't lean toward Reformed theology with some complimentarian view, there's somewhat of a target on your back.
Meta Story of WOF: Wolves feed off sheep using ear tickling promises.
Do people realize that Hagin actually wrote a book in 1999 speaking against the prosperity gospel? Called Midas Touch
he mentioned few extremes to avoid then in the same book taught the same thing so people can get into the same error again and again... no point writing the book
@@2Screative He taught the same thing WithOUT the extremes, Duhh... So then Not the same thing. Then Not the same errors.
As a pastor in Canada, and having first pastored in a classical WOF church, I find that the excesses seem to be fewer in Canada, comparatively speaking. Perhaps it's our conservative culture but I've found that some of the rough edges have been 'filed down'. Great information! What I've found is that the greatest danger of the WOF is its attitude that they have the final and most complete revelation. The exclusivity and pride that flows from that has blinded them to much of the rest of the body of Christ and what we all have to offer. I would no longer classify our church as WOF, but has having some WOF roots, eating the grass and spitting the sticks. Thanks for all you guys do!
the Catholic church believes the same thing about itself.
I think the only pride and
exclusivity that flows from their sense of 'final' revelation is attached to the televangelists, who do seem to push the 'us and them' defensive postures. Believe it or not most WoF people on the ground do not follow televangelists anymore
Yeah I would tend to agree. Those in the WOF I know personally are good, solid, humble people.
@@sandythomas8911
This was so great and helpful!! Thanks guys!
Word of faith or not, when you see pastors living far above the means of the people they are ministering to (off the freewill offerings of those same people, no less) that is a huge red flag that this ministry is not of God.
oh Boy, you should see John McArthur's houses and how much his net worth
I think for next time it’ll be great to engage the relevant texts used to support the idea of “speaking things into existence”.
Grace. Thank God He shows us all grace. Imagine the thousand shades of Christian belief, doctrine, and practice. I figure a lot of us are off on some point or other. Yet, God extends us grace. Sometimes we wrangle about words and fight over doctrines that have no eternal significance. Let’s extend each other some grace. Bottom line, if we’re not about worshipping God and winning souls, it means little. Some Pentecostal/Charismatic/ WoF (my tribe) types might lean too far into a better life on this earth. While some people are so into theology like it’s a hobby. Both got their feet firmly in the church praying for God to send the sinners in. That’s likely not going to happen. We have to get over the quibbling and get on about soul winning. Agreed?
Amen to this ! Why is the body of Christ dividing over secondary issues? Why would an unbeliever want to come sit amongst us to hear the gospel if they are aware of all this breaking down and criticizing from other brothers and sisters in Christ?!
I’m a current 2nd year Rhema Bible College student and would like to add the following to this conversation. Rhema identifies with Assemblies of God doctrinal teachings as Kenneth Hagin was an Assemblies of God trained minister. They also base a large portion of their theology off of Hagins visions and prophecies. I’m not his judge but I do not believe in his meetings with Jesus. It’s actually his visions that helped me to see through all the nonsense taught here. Also the bondage that the work of their taught faith puts you in made me clearly see that I wasn’t living by Gods grace but by my earned wage from my properly appropriated faith. I’ll be starting on my path towards seminary after I graduate from Rhema in a few weeks.
All Kenneth Hagin haa ever said is right. Every word. He walked very close to Lord Jesus. As Abraham walked with God, so did Kenneth Hagin. A 2nd year student and you dare to talk against the leader of faith. Thar shows how stupid you are.
Repent of your sin. How dare you try and disgrace one of the finest men of all time. The father of faith. You would not be at
RHEMA IF IT WAS NOT FOR HIM.
I'm about to go down this path soon. My last experience with WoF has woke me up! I feel like it's hurting Christians and causing a huge headache. I have family in WoF ans they think they are practically Jedi
My sister-in-law was a member of Livets Ord in Uppsala for many years and she loves that church. I have some friends who also were members there and miss the time at Livets Ord. But for me, I don't know. I have been at their Europakonferensen and it was nice. But something didn't feel right. I just couldn't exactly point what it was. Maybe it is because I couldn't understand Swedish so well at that time.
Speaking as an African, I’m seeing a growing number of people who are disillusioned with WOF teaching. There are many valiant adherents of course. But it’ll be interesting to see where things are in 10 years. One quality of truth is that it lasts. Will the WOF teaching maintain its hold in Africa? Time will tell
Great discussion, guys. Here are a couple of thoughts:
1. I have had people tell me that I am part of the WOF for years. Yet the way many of its aspects were described here, I would not agree with. So where does that leave me? Am I WOF, or not? And this is a fundamental issue with trying to define a movement instead of just asking individuals what they believe.
2. Piggybacking on the first point, I would encourage everyone not to assume that just because someone is labeled “Word of Faith” it means anything. Go to the source. If you’re interested in WOF, I do WOF apologetics (or, so I’ve been told) so does Rod Saunders on his channel Jew and Greek.
3. The Bible teaches faith in God, but Jesus also taught faith that what you say will come to pass. And faith that you have what you asked (Mark 11:22-24). It isn’t either/or, it’s both. He did not say “whosoever says to this mountain, be removed and does not doubt in his heart that I am the Messiah-it will be done.” He also didn’t say “whosoever says to this mountain be removed and does not doubt that God exists” He said BELIEVE THAT THOSE THINGS HE SAID SHALL COME TO PASS.”
We may not like that. We may wish He had said otherwise. But He didn’t. We can either accept that, or reject it. But that’s what He said.
Thanks guys.
I still have a few friends from my FORMER WOF Church (that I left a few years ago)...The keep telling me, "No matter what you do, you will always be a WOF person." Is that some kind of "curse" that I will be doomed with forever??
It is faith in God and faith of God. And definitely with a relationship. He is an awesome Heavenly Father. I personally think it is the way some people perceive the WOF. The power of the tongue and words are all through the Bible. Proverbs is full of scriptures about the power of our words. When I read the scriptures for myself the WOF makes a lot of sense to me.
QUESTION: How should we righty interpret the Word of Faith lynchpin verse of Mark 11:24 (Matthew 17:20, Luke 17:6)? Is Christ simply speaking to challenge our weak faith and to make us deal with the reality that we don't have enough faith to make mountains move? Also, how then should we consider Mark 2:5 (Matthew 9:2, Luke 5:20)?
Thanks...these questions NEED answers. God bless🙏🙏
I would suggest looking to St. John Chrysostom's homilies for the ancient understanding of these passages. He's a pre-schism Saint so his interpretation is going to be a pretty good indicator of what both East and West believed in the late 4th and early 5th century. You can find them archived online at New Advent.
As someone who came up WOF I have wrestled with mark 11:23. But, I beleive I found the balance! Many scholars beleive that "this mountain" Jesus is talking about is the temple mount and how it will be destroyed, and in turn it represents our Salvation and deliverance from the curse of the law.
Secondly, when Mark 11 is read in context of Matt 17:20 and Luke 17:6 - we see all that is needed is a little bit of faith...meaning we are to be reliant on God alone and not our own measure of faith. Remember, the man at the pool of Bethesda had no faith for healing. Jesus did that in his own.
Oftentimes WOF teaches to build up your own faith to a big level so that you can receive...but that is actually relying on self. Oftentimes, the WOF rightly interprets mark 11:23 by saying "have the God kind of faith" but the truth is, if we really think about it God only does things according to his will and power....so we cannot pretend to have the God kind of faith if:
#1 - what we beleive for is not God's will
#2 - we are trusting in our level of faith instead of the greatness of God's power.
And these 2 point are MAJOR issues with most WOF teachings we hear today...it turns God into a genie who gives you whatever YOU want as long as you have confessed it by true and big faith.
1 John 5:14 And this is the confidence we have toward him, that if we ask anything _according to his will_ he hears us.
WOF adherents focus on the "anything" and not so much on the "according to his will" part.
Faith in God is birthed out of fellowship with God. Mountains that we speak to it is not us speaking to them. This is from a fellowship with God and that is the birthing place of speaking to mountains. People struggle with the simplicity of the gospel. Jesus did works that he saw the father do. How? It was through the fellowship with the father through the Holy Spirit. Faith is spiritual not flesh. I do not have power to speak to mountains in the flesh. This is where many lose it. They go speaking and confessing outside a fellowship with GOD. Then you have those that do not understand the ministry of the Holy Spirit that now counter word of faith. Word of faith is Romans 10:4-10. As Christians we are word of faith if you are not you better check if you are a Christian. Word of faith is a word that is quickened by the Holy SPIRIT. WHAT WE NEED TO LOOK AT IS EXTREMISMS NOT LABELING.
This was so interesting. Thank you. Having now heard what they believe about Adam has given me understanding at how they arrive at their conclusions. My question would be what do they believe about sin and our need for redemption? Can't wait for your next follow-up video.
My church is WOF and pastor studied at Rhema under Kenneth Hagin. We believe like all other Born Again Christians should that every man is a sinner and we are saved by grace through faith. You must repent .
Also this idea that Adam was created as an equal to God or to be like him , I have NEVER even heard such a thing from any WOF teacher or believer. There are extremes to everything and I'm sure ill willed individuals have twisted scripture like this in the past but this is certainly not the norm or main teaching of creation and the fall that WOF churches teach.
That painting is dope!
I really wanted him to just move out the way for a few seconds so I could see it fully!
Very good!
I really think Hagin is really the most solid out of all those considered Word of Faith. I think people really started to take a dive after Hagin passed.
Bingo! I don't think many realize that he wrote a book called "Midas Touch" which actually spoke against the excesses we see with Copeland and the like....from what I understand, Hagin actually called together a group of his closest ministers including Copeland and told them about this book he was about to released and warned them not to go down the path of seeking riches...but they clearly ignored him in his old age.
I respectfully disagree. I had to leave WOF church, and it was such a sad experience. My Pastor said the exact same thing about Hagin, but unfortunately when the doctrine is flawed, Copeland and the like are the logical conclusion of the doctrine. WOF is not the true gospel message; Jesus did not promise guaranteed health and wealth, he told us to daily carry your cross and to suffer for Christs name.
@@followerofjesus931 I understand what you mean, but how does this even follow if Hagin himself wrote a book against the prosperity gospel and tried to correct Copeland and others?
According to your logic, if someone raises up a minister and they fall into error, the person who raised up the minister is to blame? I don't think that tracks with the biblical narrative.
Hagin is just backtracking in the doctrine that he preached. I asked our pastor repeatedly in private if healing was guaranteed in this life, and he said according to Isaiah 53, and because Jesus healed everyone he encountered healing is guaranteed.
Logically, according to that teaching, then none of us should ever die or get sick. This is the problem with Dominionism and other WOF doctrine. The “extremes” of the doctrine are not the problem, it’s the doctrine itself.
I attended that church for 2 years, and the emphasis was always on what is our rights as “sons of God”. Our sinful nature and our suffering as a result of following Jesus was a footnote. Our pastor repeatedly said how upset he got when others would bring up Jobs suffering, almost like it was a lesser part of the Bible.
I have many friends still in the WOF movement, and I believe they are Christians, just misguided. But alas, I admit I also am in trying to understand the truth of God and don’t have perfect understanding of the scripture, and grace to all is required. Blessings
Respectfully, Hagin's doctrine is just as much at fault.
"Yes, sin, sickness and disease, spiritual death, poverty and everything else that's of the devil once ruled us. But now, bless God, WE rule them - for this is the Day of Dominion!" ~ Kenneth E. Hagin
This is Dominionism teaching, putting our will above Gods
"Faith changes hope into reality." ~ Kenneth E. Hagin
Faith itself is not the "power vessel", it's IN WHOM we have our Faith.
There are many other quotes I could post, but ultimately WOF teaching places our faith above everything else, including Gods Sovereignty. Hagin was one of the first to spread this message and responsible for its dissemination.
You ask for a WoF statement of faith. My doctoral research proposes a structural theology of the movements doctrine, which can be used as a tool for defining WoF theology and identifying adherents. Other than that, as Mikael says, most WoF ministries have AoG statements. Let me know if you want to hear more.
The trick is not writing one. The trick is getting a bunch of WOF folks to sign off on it.
I would love to read more of the doctoral research that you have found. Is it viewable online?
@@TheRemnantRadio Maybe, but, in the meantime, if you want a tool which helps with the knotty questions of definitions and inter-relations between the different the movement's theological features let me know.
@@TheRemnantRadio Perhaps they just don't want to fit into your box.
We love to put people, and God into a box, and then condemn the box without hearing what they are meaning.
Living faith is in a living
God and He will not fit into our box.
QUESTION: While I may have my own answer, I am curious to hear your response: If we are not heirs of Christ's Lordship and power to create, what are we heirs of? From another perspective, if being made in the Image of God does not mean we embody his creative power (i.e. speak things into reality), what does it mean?
Micheal Heiser has some good comments about being an image bearer. It's not that you're a clone of God but more of an ambassador. He works through you on the earth. I also wouldn't limit your creative power to what you speak. Man has created some amazing through the use of his hands.
Perhaps a another question is "if we are heirs, when do we receive the inheritance?" Both aspects of receiving the inheritance (what and when) are important when deciding what it "should" look like.
Where does the Bible teach that “ we are heirs of Christ’s lordship and power to create “ and your scriptural defence must be very clear, because my bible doesn’t have anything close to saying I have Christ’s “lordship” or power to “create” ???
I always took it to mean that we are relational, it's how we live and love. We have the ability to reason, we have agency and choose to do something or not to do it and we are moral creatures. We know instinctively when we see unfairness, recoil at cruelty. We are creative too, sometimes for no other reason than the joy of creating, (not in the way God is,) but creative nonetheless. I think most of that falls under the Substantive view of Imago Dei.
Others see it as being created in such a way as to represent on Earth what God has over the entire universe. God made us as creatures able to subdue the earth, to have dominion over it and all living things on it and in it. I think that's what they call the Functional view, which I think was Heisers?
There are 3 or 4 different views in Christian theology. I'm sure a quick search will give you an outline of each one.
@@markshaneh Seated with
Christ in the heavenlies, Colossians. Also if we are heirs of God we are co-heirs with Christ, sharing His glory as well as His sufferings Romans 8:27.
If we have NO 'power to create', we certainly would not share in His glory either.
So happy with this episode and relate with Mikael. Curious question: Do you think Derek Prince in anyway WOF? Though I like to believe he is not. Thanks.
How closely related would you say Word of Faith and Prosperity Gospel doctrines are? They seem to go hand in hand.
Exactly where you draw the line BETWEEN them is exactly where sound doctrine holds up or does not hold up.
I think Word of Faith and the Prosperity Gospel are basically the same thing...WOF teachings CONTAIN the Prosperity and "Health/Wealth Gospels" that are being taught by Kenneth Copeland (and others like him)💔
Same theology that teachs divine health, wealth is a sign of faith/ spirituality, Jesus suffered in Hell, believers are little gods with creative power, Jesus was not diety until He was baptized and speaking negative reality curses you. The "little gods" thing is exactly what the serpent temped Eve with, being "like God." EECKS, RUN!
This is a good discussion, but I wish you would invite a WoF teacher of sorts to have a discussion with.
The point of the show is to reach across theological lines, and you guys say WoF are brothers but giving them the Anakin Skywalker treatment "On the council, but not granted the rank of master".
"Giving them the Anakin Skywalker treatment" LOL!!
Where can I go to listen to Michael Miller’s message on “Faith?”
Oh my goodness we did not get to hear the cliff hanger after Miller changed the subject lol
QUESTION(s): 1: how practically and to what extent if at all are we as believers in Jesus “involved” in the appropriation of His supernatural promises and blessings (for ourselves and others)? While yes they are grace-given, do we have any involvement at all, and if yes, practically how and to what extent? 2: does the answer hinge on subscribing to a particular eschatological viewpoint (now/not yet : pre-mil, a-mil, post-mil, obviously- kingdom now would have implications for answers here) 3: Based on above answers, which Biblical promises/blessings (OT - NT, some or both?) should we hope for to be appropriated by Him in our lives “before” the full realization in the new heavens and new earth?
It turned into the power of positive thinking. Faith in faith rather that faith in Yehovah.
Let’s be honest, if you line up WOF teaching, it just doesn’t line up with scriptures that is kept in context. And just look at how Jesus and disciples lived their lives, it’s cost them their lives, was it anything like what the WOF silver tongue preacher portray ?
Yes, the pastor I know will NOT acknowledge that fact or even speak on it. He's defense is that "you believe in a poverty mindset"
I think it's a balance of God's sovereignty and man's authority. Jesus gave us the authority to do various things in His name but at the same time He only did what He saw the Father doing. He operated using the gifts of the Holy Spirit as should we but He also communed with God in personal devotion and prayer, receiving words of knowledge etc We need both. An utter reverence for what God is doing in a given situation but also knowing that He has given us the authority as believers to carry out those things in His name.
Some days Jesus healed, other days He preached, other days He fed people, other days He prayed alone or called Zacchaeus down from the tree to get him to repent
God's sovereignty and man's authority, in His name and under His direction.
It's not let's just say whatever we want in His name and that's it, like a formula.
I spent 15 years under hobart freeman. I got a great edication from a great theologian. I am thankful for knowing the word. But really. Isnt it about where our heart is. What am i seeking....really! Heresy is when you destroy the 3/1 ... thanks to remnant radio i continue to learn amd adjust my theology and my heart...
I’ve been in and around Word of Faith churches since 1980.
There are some things I raise an eyebrow about. But none that affects one’s salvation.
The thing though that bugs me more is unfair criticism. Particularly when Christians are questioning the motives and even the salvation of other Christians. No one in the WoF movement that I’ve ever heard, and I’ve heard most all of the big names, ever do that.
I would suggest some of y’all check yourself when questioning other’s motives.
PS It’s not word/faith, it’s the word of faith as in scripture, Romans 10:8, or of course, Word of Faith when using it as a name.
Anytime I read or hear someone use the term word/faith I know they are ill informed. Probably listened to one of those heresy hunters / “discernment” videos.
Check out Faith on Fire where many WOF sympathisers hang out. They sincerely believe that evangelical Calvinists are heretics doomed to Hell
Doesn't the Word Of Faith teach that Jesus was born again in hell? And they He fought the devil in hell? that is blant heresy if they hold to that teaching
I wouldn't say blatant Hersey as in damnable to hell. They use prooftexts for it, albeit wrongly interpreted. Main one being col 2:15 - they would kinda rightly surmise - "how do you spoil principalities if you aren't in hell?" And how eph 4 and act 2:24 says Jesus descended to hell.
I used to believe in it too and was definitely still saved. We just need to remember that perfect theology isn't what saves. They just take these verses at face value and don't do more digging.
Also, born again Jesus simply comes from col 1:18 - Jesus is first born from the dead. And in like manner we are crucified with Christ and dead and risen to new life - ie: born again.
I don't like using the term because many think this heretical to think Jesus was born again, but scripture pretty clearly leads you to beleive that. He was born of Mary, died, and was risen back to life. Not of necessity to save himself, but to save humanity.
@@BEABEREAN10 I heard a pastor teach on that, and I do believe that Jesus did descend to hades when he died. And here are the passages he used to justify his viewpoint.
He talked about how Sheol, the place of the dead, had 2 sections - Abraham's bossom, and the place of torment, which we know to be hell, according to Luke 16:19-31.
Essentially, all the Spirits of the departed went to Sheol when they died. The righteous to Abraham's bossom and the unrighteous to hell. And from Acts 2:25-27, it seems Jesus went to Sheol when he died.
Ephesians 4:9-10 also talks about how Jesus descended to the lower parts of the earth.
1 Peter 3:19-20- also talks about how Jesus, after being made alive in the Spirit, went and proclaimed to the imprisoned "who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built." (I believe these to be the Angels that sinned, according to 2 Peter 2:4 and Jude 1:6)
Adam fell! That changed everything. We can’t rule and reign in a fallen state
Christ rose! That too changed everything.
Word of Faith teachers do not formulate their beliefs arbitrarily; instead, their theological perspective is derived from their interpretation of particular scriptures. While I hold an appreciation for Remnant Radio's ministry, the recent broadcast did not introduce any novel insights, as none of the assertions made were substantiated with scriptural references. I eagerly anticipate future discussions that delve into the specific scriptures underpinning their doctrinal framework, as Josh alluded to during the broadcast. This will undoubtedly provide a more comprehensive and scripturally grounded exploration of their worldview.
Y’all need to get Rod Saunders on about this.
Thank you so much for this, expresses so clearly my concerns about my church. Been gently trying to talk to my pastor about this and will share with him- but wondering your thoughts on sharing with the rest of the congregation. Would it be appropriate to send out in our group chat or would that be like undermining my pastor?
Definitely share with him first and see what he thinks about it.
Wow! The ‘Eden’ topic! Talk about reading into the Scripture & giving it ‘their own twist’ & interpretation, and an interpretation that is not backed up by Scripture! WOF teachings were a part of my life for many years. So happy that God opened my eyes!!
As a member of a WOF church ( pastor went to Rhema directly under Kenneth Hagin) i have never heard that version of the Creation of Adam and Eden before. I find it hard to believe that Kenneth Hagin taught that Adam was created as an equal to God.
Every move of God throughout Church history emphasizes the truths that God is, at that present time, using his Church to convey. Jesus said He will build His Church. We lost a lot through the 1000 years of dark ages and the the major Truth God used to bring us out of that period is Justification by Faith alone. This reformation of the 1500s was, I believe, a first step to God re-establishing His Church and it HAD to be this truth because it is the foundation all other true moves of God are built on. Soon to follow were other movements and revivals that built upon that such as Holiness. There were others that God used between 1500 and 1900. In the beginning of the 1900s the Pentecostal movement began. Step by Step you can see Jesus building His Church using different groups of people. EVERY group taught their given Truth to reestablish it in the earth after the dark ages. And EVERY group went overboard and and had errors but it didn't nullify their calling. I believe one of the things, if not the main thing, that God has used the WOF movement for is to show us God's favor and that he actually does want to bless us and we like every other group, has gone overboard. Every new move of God has it's detractors. Every new move it's loonies. When I study how God has blessed his people throughout the ages in scripture, I see enough evidence that He DOES want to bless me and give me favor. And I don't limit that to just "spiritual blessings". There has been other movements since the WOF movement began in earnest in the 60-70s and to the degree you participate in them you can partake of their particular kind of blessings (and unfortunately error too) such as the Prophetic movement that began in the 80s and the Apostolic that began in the 90s. What is it all culminating in? I don't see everything of course but one thing Eph 4:11 seems to says is that when people partake in the ministries of all the offices (Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors and Teachers) THEN they are able to be fully equipped for service. No longer will it just be the superstar preacher laying hands on the sick (etc), the fuller Body of Christ will be enacting these things in kitchens, living rooms and on the streets! Don't be afraid of what might be an actual move of God, even when the imperfect people God is using fail. Be a student of what God is doing in the earth today.
WOF only seems to work for the people at the top of the food chain . Ken Copeland made me run from their movement when he said Jesus died spiritually and he became a sinner that the devils tourmented in hell for 3 days until the father could no longer stand it and resurrected him. Copeland said he could do the same sacrifice Jesus did on the cross and bring salvation to the world . Joyce Myers aggrees with Ken on his theolog so all the good she does is cancelled out . Seed faith giving is not biblical unless God is telling you to 23:30 give . The idea that we become little gods here and now is similar to Mormon beliefs and Buddhist beliefs .
Most aberrations will come to this end. There are cults with Christian expression selling this. No coincidence the Serpent tempted Eve in this manner, 'You will not surely die. For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.' ESV (Ge 3:4-5). (2016). Crossway Bibles.
I agree these are errant doctrines for sure, but they weren't always taught in WOF and Hagin was much more balanced even when he taught Jesus spiritual suffering and even the hint of little God's.
@@BEABEREAN10 When Jesus said it is Finished sin was defeated at that point in time . The problem with WOF is the same as the Gnostic Gospels in the early church . Jesus spoke about the Nicolaitans with his 7 epistles in the book of revelation . The book of Jude also refers to the WOF fruitless doctrines and false teachings . It's another religion that uses the bible out of context and it is Deadly Mechanical with many formulas that don't work.
Kenneth Hagins wrote a book called the Midas Touch where i admitted past mistakes and statements about prosperity gospel.He also admitted sickness was part of the Christian life and died of that. The truth is the big names of the WOF are not that WOF, it is harder to see the difference between the apostolic Bill HAMON type of churches and some WOF churches. Creflo Dollar, Bill Winston are softer in the faith and prosperity talk. The Terri Savelle, Jeremy Pearsons are also on softer version and not different from IHOP or other charismatic preachers.
A big issue in this discussion is the classic difference of Calvinism vs Arminianism.
Determining the writings of EW Kenyon and Kenneth Hagin..
I understand the academically and Theological approaches and it is helpful.
But to determine the legitimacy of this movement or any other movement ..all one has to do is to be a Berean and search the scriptures.. having said that any movement that will.. twist.. the doctrine of the atonement that involves the blood sacrifice of Christ physical suffering on the cross is heretical. And for the sakes of the body of Christ this must be stated first and foremost then we seek to help those that have entered into false teaching🙂
Kenneth Begin was the greatest Bible teacher in the last one hundred years at least. I have followed the WoF for over 40 years. It has been a wonderful blessing.
Kenneth Hagin.
I guess that's your opinion. It's a free country...I belonged to a WOF Church for about 37 years (from Sept. 1984 until the end of May 2021)...I got tired of being controlled and being criticized if I didn't do everything perfectly...Like: "Don't take notes in Church..Pay attention.. If you don't speak in tongues, something is wrong with you.. Speak positively all the time (OR ELSE) Go to every single Church service, every single week, etc...And don't forget that you are a "Little God," so you better ACT LIKE ONE...!!!😮
@@caroleimani9754 I am sorry that you have had a bad experience in a WOF church. But please understand that ANY kind of church can be toxic. I have been in many kinds of churches. Some were good and others were not. I do not think that their theology was generally the problem. It was the attitudes of the people and/or the minister.
My comments (opinion) had nothing to do with any particular church but on Hagin's teaching. It has been a great blessing to me for well over 40 years. I am an educated Bible teacher with a Masters in Theology.
No metanarrative ? A door immediately opens for the scarcely disguised gnostics- Kenyon and Hagin. The myth of gift giving. It just demeans. How difficult is it to avoid this actual demeaning of mankind - not the opposite as they maintain- and accompanying toxic mist? Moreover , what about the fellow "contractual" travellers..like Andrew Wommack?
Understand the Kingdom. Drop the gnostic / greek thinking.
It sounds to me like word of faith fails to recognize “realized eschatology” and the already/not yet theology of the NT. Even supposing that Adam is everything they say he was (which doesn’t seem biblical to me), we still wouldn’t experience it until after the resurrection.
But don’t the WOF people still have faith in God just they’re believing God has given them a certain level of authority over certain things?
It’s like if you’re Father gives you the keys to the car, gives you some rules what you can and can’t do with it. You’re trusting in yourself to be able to operate the vehicle because you trust in your fathers permission he’s given you…. Idk how to articulate it. My Father gave me this blessing and I trust in him to be telling me the truth about it kind of thing It’s a strange subject to think about and discuss.
Edit: maybe this is a simpler way of looking at it. God has given us some amount of authority through Jesus to do certain things within his will. The authority through Jesus aka Gods will is what changes things not faith. Our faith is still needed for it to work though.
Kenneth Hagin senior is one of the most beautiful christians of all time. Born prem, a heart that was not right like it should be. The doctors did nit give him much time to live. Bed ridden at the age of 17, the Lord appeared to him and said one morning at 11 o clock. Ought not folks to be up at this time of the day. Kenneth Hagin weak beyond words tried to sit up and get out of bed. He fell and tried again and again. It took all his strength but he was a chosen vessel unto the Lord. God was healing his heart and kidneys and everything that was deformed in his body.
God raised him up and said go and teach my people faiith and so he did. I thank God for him. I thank God for his teachings.
Authority of the believer is an anointed book. I advise all christians to read it
You dare to come against a precious saint of God and speak your lies and filth about him. You can be wiped off the face of
this earth. You are a wicked man
The object of one’s faith is the key. Biblical, exegetical, “word of faith” is Romans chp 10 dealing with one’s salvation (faith/confession in Jesus as Lord).
What the “Word-Faith” folks did was twist that concept, eisegetically, to make the object of one’s faith, “their faith”, to basically trust in this life and feed their own greed. Poor people are typically suseptible to these teachings because of the promised formula, which ultimately only ever enriches the “ministry” peddling it.
i appreciate you and your guests efforts but have to observe that there was nothing new presented here that Robert Bowman Jr. didn’t already describe and refute in his 2001 book The Word-Faith Controversy.
wrap it in all the polysyllabic “meta narrative” language you like but it still comes down to a works based theology that only bears fruit FOR the people at the top of the pyramid and likely shipwrecks the saving faith of more believers than it builds up.
HUMMMM EVERY "IDOL" WORD. CAN YOUR WORDS BECOME AN IDOL 2U???
AFTER 40 YEARS ,ITS BASIC PREMIS IS GIVING AS MUCH MONEY AS POSSIBLE TO GET BLESSING AND REAP HARVEST
If you can listen to this and not get uneasy I would caution you to go and read Deuteronomy again about false prophets.
Faith is not described as a metaphysical force but a spiritual force. Are there not spiritual forces?
Where dose laying hands and praying for the sick come into play here? I know it’s not me that will be doing the healing. I know God isn’t like oh shoot didn’t realize he was sick lol but we have faith in Gods goodness, willingness and power to heal. Do we not speak to these ailments in Jesus name? With “expectant” faithfulness in God? What about casting out demonic spirits? I come from charismatic Pentecostal roots and I’m genuinely curious and really starting to dig deep into scripture and learn what is truth and what without even realizing is just taught doctrines. Thank you all for insight and your grace.
Thank you Remnant...2 Corinthians 11 "... your mind should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ" so if your wrestling with your theology or faith in Jesus Christ something is corrupted!
Came here because of Theology Mom, Krista Bontrager
‘Adam had ‘the faith of GOD’, and authority over spiritual beings (angel). I never heard of that. I can be defined as a world of faith teaching follower, but never heard of that. Particularly becos ….I don’t see any biblical based (scriptures) to support it. Anyone has any clarity to bring to the his? Did I miss something ?
Im trying to understand, is the speaker making a distinction of a particular movement that seem to be operating from a specific revelation of the Scriptures, where proponets have gone off in some points, or is he trying to suggest the revelation of the word of faith is false to begin with (because it preaches healing, prosperity, victory etc.)?
the very phrase "faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God" cannot be grammatically unpacked for exegesis. Try pointing out sometime to WOFer the underlying text and translation that say "word of Christ".
I can’t get a handle on NTW.
He lost me at "My mom is a charismatic Lutheran priest."
What in the world is that??
That's Sweden 😅
That’s her choice, not his. Facts are facts.
😆🤣
@@NotEasyButSimple it’s a joke mate. Lighten up/
Did he say sowing and reaping is a metaphor??
I really wish they would interview Jew and Greek when addressing the topic of WoF
wof people are basically people trying to accept and believe what Jesus said in Mk 11:23-24. God knows how many other groups/churches preach and teach and call those of us who love those verses heretics, false and wolves. What do those verses mean? To what degree can we believe them? what limitation should be placed on them? Should we follow this person who puts one kind of limitations on that passage or that person? To those that are critical of us for trying to live those verses out in our everyday lives, making many many mistakes while doing so, what would you have us do concerning those verses? Should we accept your limitations that those verses only apply to "spiritual blessings"? Although this verse can certainly provide that, Jesus put no limitations on the verses saying so. Varying wof teachers have tried to bring some balance to the verses by saying you can believe for what God promises in His word. Much of the problem is Calvinist teachings that seek to tell us that everything that happens is God's will and therefore there is no reason to ever expect, in faith, for answered prayer bc you just never know God's will; there are no/few promises to claim. Jesus said those words and I believe them. I haven't ever lived in them fully but I still believe them just as I believe in walking sin-free but haven't ever fully lived in that either
TITUS 2:13 COLOSSIANS 3:4 HEBREWS 12 22 REVELATION 5:9 HABAKKUK 2:1-3 LUKE 21:34-36 JOHN 14 1-3 ENJOY GODS WORD
You need to know the history of WOF also.
Q: my sister wouldn’t say she’s in the word of faith movement but she Defs Uses the name of Jesus in that way.. there is no power in purely the name of Jesus right?
Wrong. If I am in warfare, His Name is the first weapon I use.
I have been blessed by watch you call Word of Faith but I don"t yjonk Ive ever heard of the thousands of sermons watched them say they were Word of Faith . Faith is big in the Bible look it up
Attended wof church for more years than I like to admit. My wife and I were even on staff for several years. When you cherry pick scriptures and misrepresent the context you can make the Bible appear to say what it doesn't say. When you admixture some truth with with conjecture-supposition-presumption-speculation-and human reasoning you are headed for a train wreck.