Love the video, learned a lot. It would be awesome to see a video of you taking apart a cheap pre amp like the art tube preamp that’s $50 and upgrading the components to something that would have it perform/ sound better.
dude, way to go i havent seen a vid like this, please do more on the actual breakdown on topology and the difference with certain components or their articulation within the circuit.
@@PetersonGoodwyn I found that the Preamp and EQ ckts really determined the 'SOUND' of most consoles. The TOPOLOGY is one really obvious differences. Another is components. Lifespan (Quality ?) is largely determined, Electrolytic Capacitors (Longer life use high temp More $) INDUCTANCE and ESR in caps was often noticeably different sounding. Then you get to things like Tantalum Caps Ugh! Signal path coupling Caps in balanced power supply circuits CAN BE AND OFTEN ARE REVERSE BIASED Controls (A HUGE CAN OF WORMS OPENS) some pots were better than others LIFE WISE and in ROTATIONAL CONSISTANCY OF TRACKING). (Important in ganged units. switched solves this problem BUT introduces steps ) Resisters, some are semiconductors there value varies with applied voltage. Some caps do this also. Sound again! Getting to the actives OP AMPS distinctive sound, Mostly due to global NF Discrete, TOPOLOGYS and devices operating conditions. TRANSISTERS remember PNP & NPN are ONLY POLARITY COMPLEMENTARY. (look at the gain) TRANSFORMERS. Signal, more worms to deal with, but yes I used them for ISOLATION and THEY WERE THE BEST CHOICE in most applications. 1: COMPLETE GALVANIC ISOLATION. (No ground loops) 2: ELECTROSTATIC SHEILD(s) provided capacitive isolation but at a hell of a price USA $137.00 each in late 70s for a custom one, BUT IT'S PERFORMANCE WAS SUPURB. electronic line balancing is cheap AND ANY NOISE IS A SIGNAL TO THE ELECTRONICS THERE FOR REDUCES THE DYNAMIC RANGE. transformers cm only exceeding breakdown voltage would cause a problem, unlikely in signal lines. Interestingly some of the legacy components even with all there bad specs had a 'nice sound' that the much better spec current ones don't! Interesting channel, I like it.
Another huge difference: when a component fails on the $50 preamp it hits the trash can; when the $500 pre component fails, the offending part can usually be identified and replaced for not that much $ and be kept in action for years to come.
@@tHaH4x0r nothing if you want to invest the time and effort. Props to those who can and do and hells yeah to those who can mod it to being even better
@@andyfreeze4072 it's more likely to just need it's capacitors replaced every ~20 yrs and not much more (unless kept in a humid climate)...capacitors are a lot less then $50
I respect the way you don't diss the cheap gear. You understand that cheap gear was designed with sweat, blood and tears just as much as the boutique stuff. In fact, designing boutique gear is much EASIER - simply choose the exact components you want and add margin :)
Fantastic! I love that you're explaining, from a manufacturer/DIY POV, the different philosophies that lead to the different products. I would only add that: it's a GOOD thing that you have one group of people engineering the 'Money is no object' audio gear, simultaneously as others are engineering the 'squeeze out every single penny' audio gear. Once upon a time, the former was the only thing gear sluts would touch, and the latter was almost blasphemous. However, I don't think anyone can argue today that the 'Concept Car' audio gear hasn't influenced the cheap stuff, or that the 'Made in China' ripoff gear hasn't shown all manufacturers how to get to an end result in less expensive ways. As you pointed out, ironically the stuff that makes sound isn't necessarily the stuff that costs all the money. And the MANY clones of all the Studio Classics, have been getting more and more convincing over the years. And for far less cash. Beyond that, even when the cheap alternatives don't exactly nail the sound of the piece they're emulating (and no two classic pieces sound the same either), often they are totally usable, and even more reliable and less noisy than the "real thing" . Last thought: I know this video wasn't about 'clones' or 'copies' necessarily, but rather mass-produced/cheaply produced vs 'boutique'. But it's worth remembering that the Distressor was a hardware emulation of 3 classic compressors, with the design goal of consistency, reliability, and low cost, and they've since become Studio Classics in their own right. I doubt there's a commercial studio rack in the world that doesn't have at least a pair of those cheap knockoffs. I'm loving these videos though! I keep buying kits, thinking COVID-19 is the perfect excuse to start soldering, only to get derailed by something else. But these videos renew my focus, so keep em coming.
Thanks! Glad you enjoyed it. And I completely agree, the explosion in prosumer gear has absolutely pushed the industry forward as a whole. And very interesting point about the Distressor starting as a "clone" and becoming a classic!
THANKS! This is fantastic to understand these things - please do more. Such as mic preamps for podcasting and in house small - mid business size using - the entry level $99 vs the $200 to $500 preamps vs the API and Neves at $1500 plus. Same for EQ and compressors, if that interests you. I'd sure like to know...thanks, again.
This video is fantastic! You should do a video to very generally explain why you choose the components that you do and what you are trying to accomplish when choosing values.
In my opinion the most expressive thing is the way these bus-powered devices manage to supply phantom power. To design a good dc-dc converter for these voltage ratios isn't easy at all.
I was just thinking this. When my SSL 2 usb powered interface can not only power my neumann kms 105, but have enough gain that they famously need...And sound great!
A comparison of the Hamptone mic pre versus, perhaps, the likes of Golden Age Project Premiere 73, Warm Audio equivalent, or other such may have proven interesting. At the least, I can appreciate the aesthetics.
My grandparents were of the day when even a crank and a horn for 78s were state of the art! Uli beringer is a total hero to me, he changed everything. Before him all the manufacturers had a good thing going and kept prices really high. He was on the side of the poor musician and tried to make quality gear as cheap as possible. I remember when his first condenser mic came along 20 years ago, it was unbelievably cheap and dead good, for the first time I could actually use a studio type mic. The good times for the big boys were over and they have had to follow suit.
Really amazing things start to happen if you just double or triple that $50 price point. Now you've got a bus-powered pre that has fantastic headroom, ultra low self-noise and distortion and super flat frequency response curve. Well, you won't be able to drive over it with a car or do old analog overdrive tricks, but you can put it in a bag and gig if you need! It is incredible what can be done with the miniaturization nowadays.
bah, I see Amek, I see Neve Consoles etc, all they use chips (NE5532/34 or the THAT or OPA etc) or even Harrison that uses uA741 ... however they've made Thriller by MJ, with that. Thus, nothing wrong with chips at all. Just mind-set. What should you point out are passive components' quality, mainly Electrolitic Caps that, on Behringer, are not so high. Yes definitely the power supply counts a lot, on the final result. You told clearly and correctly.
Sort of...if the chip is optimally designed. Not all are. There are definite limits to how close together one can cram the components in an IC before the pathway EM fields will intermingle - increasing cross-talk, interference, noise etc
Cool viddy! Oh, the price difference is a fair bit more than an order of magnitude :) - DIY means you subb'd what Hamptone charges in labor for assembly and calibration+testing. A pre-fab is closer to $1000/channel - and it's sold direct, so there's no retail middlemen getting their cut of a still larger 'sales pie'. - The Behringer is also an I/O bay with A/D and D/A, is pre-fab, and sold ~retail~... yet likely clears a better profit margin (i.e. proportional % per unit) than the Hamptone is, due to the effect of economy of scale. The PSU, enclosure and pots/faders are typically the most expensive parts of these things. I would be surprised if before it left the factory total cost of the parts necessary to build it's preamp _[including jacks and PCB; only what it needs to pass and "amplify" an external signal]_ exceeded $5 .
Any way to find more info on the Hamptone unit you have there or how to acquire? Is probably perfect for what I’ve been looking for! Couldn’t see it on the webs nets pretty sure.
And also the Behringer is not just a preamp, it's also an interface and a mixer. It's a jack of all trades but a master of none. The Hamptone on the other had is just a preamp and a very good one at that.
gotta be honest this is way more surface level than i expected, was just kinda i can open these and know what components are, while not incorrect its just kinda superfluous, not even hating i just know you know more
I'd like to see a comparison and explanation of why 500 Series versions cost so much less than the 19" rack versions of the same unit. I know the power supply is already taken care of in a lunch box, but what else accounts for say an SSL G-series going for $3,500 while the 500 version goes for $2,200?
Because the purists will continue to pay $3,500 but SSL also wants to have something to offer a more price-sensitive audience with the 500-series version. Pricing is much more about what people will pay than what's inside the box.
I'm sure there is. I just mean that it's not necessarily that the entire difference is made up by the case and power supply. There's also the factor of different market segments, pricing for perception, etc.
New to the channel. Great work. but would be nice of you had done an overview of the units instead of wiggling them super fast in front of the camera in a bad angle with a blurry camera. That said I'm looking forward to diving into your vids :-)
im having a headache following the movement of your hand while carrying the expensive preamp that maybe I would have a good glance of its internal. but sadly I got is headache
Here is an idea: With the "heavy duty" equipment, most of the price comes from the logistics cost, inherent in every "heavy" part. I'm not an expert but I've been recently astonished by the notion of how much we are actually paying for weight vs. quality in a product! The only things that are "heavy" and cheap are those produced fully locally..
Also, the long term overhead cost of making a dedicated space for keeping just a few of these somewhat esoteric parts in stock, vs moving 1000s of cheap parts year in and year out through that same physical (and partly mental) space required.
Lots of interesting points here! Firstly, a while back I did some digging and found out that a lot of electronic components come out of the same factories and that the difference is the "name" that gets attached. So just because a component doesn't have a brand name doesn't necessarily mean that it's not as good. I still don't know how you can actually tell. Secondly, I think the comparison is a bit unfair as you're comparing something that adds "character" against something that is "clean". Do Behringer claim that their unit adds anything? Finally, it's somewhat ironic that back in the day engineers had endless problems with gear overheating, valves failing, etc. particularly mixing desks. I just watched a video where the engineer said he had to hit a channel on his Neve desk to get the bass to work! Another said that they no longer use a 670 on their mixbus as they realised that all it added was noise!
All good points. Behringer vs. Hamptone is really an apples-to-oranges comparison. There are opamp based designs that are far superior to the Hamptone in terms of performance. But the Behringer is not one of them. The Behringer is mostly designed to be a convenient mixer, and the preamp quality is secondary.
just talk about the preamps already, 60% of the video were about the case and knobs? kinda important too as its part of the price, and i guess power also makes a difference, but what about the actual preamps? lol
Even though USB provides only 5v practically all USB powered audio devices (even super cheap ones) run a usual 15v for the audio parts of the circuit. Voltage doublers and triplers and beyond have been around for many years now. Think about it... most of these cheap USB interfaces provide 48v (or damn near close to) for phantom power so 15v for running the audio components isn't an issue. I like the spirit of your videos but you need to tighten up some of your details.
Yes of course you can up-convert voltage internally...but "the issue" is you can't do that without paying a significant price in noise, dynamic range etc.
![Ep.2 เบสไวน์ รวมคลิปฮา SS4 - [ พากย์นรก ]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Ihk-LzEbox0/mqdefault.jpg)
Love the video, learned a lot. It would be awesome to see a video of you taking apart a cheap pre amp like the art tube preamp that’s $50 and upgrading the components to something that would have it perform/ sound better.
dude, way to go i havent seen a vid like this, please do more on the actual breakdown on topology and the difference with certain components or their articulation within the circuit.
Thanks! Will do!
@@PetersonGoodwyn I found that the Preamp and EQ ckts really determined the 'SOUND' of most consoles.
The TOPOLOGY is one really obvious differences. Another is components. Lifespan (Quality ?) is largely determined, Electrolytic Capacitors (Longer life use high temp More $)
INDUCTANCE and ESR in caps was often noticeably different sounding.
Then you get to things like Tantalum Caps Ugh!
Signal path coupling Caps in balanced power supply circuits CAN BE AND OFTEN ARE REVERSE BIASED
Controls (A HUGE CAN OF WORMS OPENS) some pots were better than others LIFE WISE and in ROTATIONAL CONSISTANCY OF TRACKING). (Important in ganged units. switched solves this problem BUT introduces steps )
Resisters, some are semiconductors there value varies with applied voltage. Some caps do this also. Sound again!
Getting to the actives OP AMPS distinctive sound, Mostly due to global NF
Discrete, TOPOLOGYS and devices operating conditions.
TRANSISTERS remember PNP & NPN are ONLY POLARITY COMPLEMENTARY. (look at the gain)
TRANSFORMERS. Signal, more worms to deal with, but yes I used them for ISOLATION and THEY WERE THE BEST CHOICE in most applications.
1: COMPLETE GALVANIC ISOLATION. (No ground loops)
2: ELECTROSTATIC SHEILD(s) provided capacitive isolation but at a hell of a price USA $137.00 each in late 70s for a custom one, BUT IT'S PERFORMANCE WAS SUPURB. electronic line balancing is cheap AND ANY NOISE IS A SIGNAL TO THE ELECTRONICS THERE FOR REDUCES THE DYNAMIC RANGE. transformers cm only exceeding breakdown voltage would cause a problem, unlikely in signal lines.
Interestingly some of the legacy components even with all there bad specs had a 'nice sound' that the much better spec current ones don't!
Interesting channel, I like it.
Another huge difference: when a component fails on the $50 preamp it hits the trash can; when the $500 pre component fails, the offending part can usually be identified and replaced for not that much $ and be kept in action for years to come.
So what prevents you from fixing a $50 preamp?
@@tHaH4x0r nothing if you want to invest the time and effort. Props to those who can and do and hells yeah to those who can mod it to being even better
i think your denying reality. If the $500 pre component fails, its gonna cost a shit load more than $50.
@@andyfreeze4072 it's more likely to just need it's capacitors replaced every ~20 yrs and not much more (unless kept in a humid climate)...capacitors are a lot less then $50
Great video, I love it when companies share knowledge, that's really giving back to the community and only makes me more interested in your products.
Loving your videos, loving your kits and designs - keep up the great work!
I love your channel! Exactly the information I have been looking for.
Your channel is just brilliant. Solid gold!!
Glad you enjoy it!
I respect the way you don't diss the cheap gear.
You understand that cheap gear was designed with sweat, blood and tears just as much as the boutique stuff.
In fact, designing boutique gear is much EASIER - simply choose the exact components you want and add margin :)
Sounds dangerous 😂
Peterson, you are The Gear Whisperer, I love these videos
Great video! More please! A video on the difference between single ended and push pull(tube or solid state) circuits would be wonderful!
i like your perspective and the way you present it. As soon as possible i'll buy some products from you :-)
Fantastic!
I love that you're explaining, from a manufacturer/DIY POV, the different philosophies that lead to the different products.
I would only add that: it's a GOOD thing that you have one group of people engineering the 'Money is no object' audio gear, simultaneously as others are engineering the 'squeeze out every single penny' audio gear.
Once upon a time, the former was the only thing gear sluts would touch, and the latter was almost blasphemous.
However, I don't think anyone can argue today that the 'Concept Car' audio gear hasn't influenced the cheap stuff, or that the 'Made in China' ripoff gear hasn't shown all manufacturers how to get to an end result in less expensive ways.
As you pointed out, ironically the stuff that makes sound isn't necessarily the stuff that costs all the money.
And the MANY clones of all the Studio Classics, have been getting more and more convincing over the years. And for far less cash.
Beyond that, even when the cheap alternatives don't exactly nail the sound of the piece they're emulating (and no two classic pieces sound the same either), often they are totally usable, and even more reliable and less noisy than the "real thing" .
Last thought: I know this video wasn't about 'clones' or 'copies' necessarily, but rather mass-produced/cheaply produced vs 'boutique'. But it's worth remembering that the Distressor was a hardware emulation of 3 classic compressors, with the design goal of consistency, reliability, and low cost, and they've since become Studio Classics in their own right. I doubt there's a commercial studio rack in the world that doesn't have at least a pair of those cheap knockoffs.
I'm loving these videos though!
I keep buying kits, thinking COVID-19 is the perfect excuse to start soldering, only to get derailed by something else.
But these videos renew my focus, so keep em coming.
Thanks! Glad you enjoyed it. And I completely agree, the explosion in prosumer gear has absolutely pushed the industry forward as a whole. And very interesting point about the Distressor starting as a "clone" and becoming a classic!
you explained this amazingly. thank you very much brother💯
beautifully clear explanation ....thanks
I’ve just found your channel, these videos are brilliant, so concise and informative thanks man
that jfet hamptone was my first real pre...really enjoyed this
Awesome video Bro!!
awesome video
THANKS! This is fantastic to understand these things - please do more. Such as mic preamps for podcasting and in house small - mid business size using - the entry level $99 vs the $200 to $500 preamps vs the API and Neves at $1500 plus. Same for EQ and compressors, if that interests you. I'd sure like to know...thanks, again.
This video is fantastic! You should do a video to very generally explain why you choose the components that you do and what you are trying to accomplish when choosing values.
Thanks for the idea!
Thanks for this explanation
I wish you would do a tear down of some warm audio tech, microphone, preamp or comp. 😃 love your videos!
Great video! Thank you!
I don't understand how we have the same exact screwdrivers. Thanks for the video!
In my opinion the most expressive thing is the way these bus-powered devices manage to supply phantom power. To design a good dc-dc converter for these voltage ratios isn't easy at all.
I agree! It is impressive that they get up to +48v but keep in mind it's very low current compared to the other power rails.
I was just thinking this. When my SSL 2 usb powered interface can not only power my neumann kms 105, but have enough gain that they famously need...And sound great!
Those cheap Behringer preamps that are about 100 dollars might have been a better comparison I feel like, but still a great run through on things.
A comparison of the Hamptone mic pre versus, perhaps, the likes of Golden Age Project Premiere 73, Warm Audio equivalent, or other such may have proven interesting.
At the least, I can appreciate the aesthetics.
My grandparents were of the day when even a crank and a horn for 78s were state of the art! Uli beringer is a total hero to me, he changed everything. Before him all the manufacturers had a good thing going and kept prices really high. He was on the side of the poor musician and tried to make quality gear as cheap as possible. I remember when his first condenser mic came along 20 years ago, it was unbelievably cheap and dead good, for the first time I could actually use a studio type mic. The good times for the big boys were over and they have had to follow suit.
Really amazing things start to happen if you just double or triple that $50 price point. Now you've got a bus-powered pre that has fantastic headroom, ultra low self-noise and distortion and super flat frequency response curve. Well, you won't be able to drive over it with a car or do old analog overdrive tricks, but you can put it in a bag and gig if you need! It is incredible what can be done with the miniaturization nowadays.
Great points, you're absolutely right
You’re taking about...mixers w preamps or preamp units?
bah, I see Amek, I see Neve Consoles etc, all they use chips (NE5532/34 or the THAT or OPA etc) or even Harrison that uses uA741 ... however they've made Thriller by MJ, with that.
Thus, nothing wrong with chips at all. Just mind-set.
What should you point out are passive components' quality, mainly Electrolitic Caps that, on Behringer, are not so high.
Yes definitely the power supply counts a lot, on the final result. You told clearly and correctly.
Sort of...if the chip is optimally designed. Not all are.
There are definite limits to how close together one can cram the components in an IC
before the pathway EM fields will intermingle - increasing cross-talk, interference, noise etc
I have a question ,, what's the sound difference if any ?
Cool viddy!
Oh, the price difference is a fair bit more than an order of magnitude :)
- DIY means you subb'd what Hamptone charges in labor for assembly and calibration+testing. A pre-fab is closer to $1000/channel - and it's sold direct, so there's no retail middlemen getting their cut of a still larger 'sales pie'.
- The Behringer is also an I/O bay with A/D and D/A, is pre-fab, and sold ~retail~... yet likely clears a better profit margin (i.e. proportional % per unit) than the Hamptone is, due to the effect of economy of scale. The PSU, enclosure and pots/faders are typically the most expensive parts of these things. I would be surprised if before it left the factory total cost of the parts necessary to build it's preamp _[including jacks and PCB; only what it needs to pass and "amplify" an external signal]_ exceeded $5 .
Any way to find more info on the Hamptone unit you have there or how to acquire? Is probably perfect for what I’ve been looking for! Couldn’t see it on the webs nets pretty sure.
hamptone.com/products/hjfp2/
Of course. You're absolutely right
‘Your grandparents would recognize this..’ 🤣 Great vid
Thanks Dr. Spachemen!
@@PetersonGoodwyn 30 rock reference??!??!?! i couldnt love u guys more
7:51 Don't worry, Distortastudio, I still love you
I've damaged many things with my grubby primate hands 🙈
And also the Behringer is not just a preamp, it's also an interface and a mixer. It's a jack of all trades but a master of none. The Hamptone on the other had is just a preamp and a very good one at that.
The funny thing is that the engineers from 50 years ago wanted exactly that, the least coloring gear. Now, it is the opposite.
gotta be honest this is way more surface level than i expected, was just kinda i can open these and know what components are, while not incorrect its just kinda superfluous, not even hating i just know you know more
i get the sense this was intended more at a level of beginner to intermediate "buyer guide", than the hardcore DIY/EE nerd
I'd like to see a comparison and explanation of why 500 Series versions cost so much less than the 19" rack versions of the same unit. I know the power supply is already taken care of in a lunch box, but what else accounts for say an SSL G-series going for $3,500 while the 500 version goes for $2,200?
Because the purists will continue to pay $3,500 but SSL also wants to have something to offer a more price-sensitive audience with the 500-series version. Pricing is much more about what people will pay than what's inside the box.
@@PetersonGoodwyn Wow, so there's literally no difference in the circuitry?
I'm sure there is. I just mean that it's not necessarily that the entire difference is made up by the case and power supply. There's also the factor of different market segments, pricing for perception, etc.
New to the channel. Great work. but would be nice of you had done an overview of the units instead of wiggling them super fast in front of the camera in a bad angle with a blurry camera.
That said I'm looking forward to diving into your vids :-)
dude that is a fuckin SICK shirt
im having a headache following the movement of your hand while carrying the expensive preamp that maybe I would have a good glance of its internal. but sadly I got is headache
Very cool. Most folks just look at gear and shrug. Shading it’s cheap and dumb. Good luck on your own
hmm the win margin seems to be way bigger on the 1000€ preamp...?!?
Buy the grungy $500 version if you want distortion, phase issues, poor square wave risetime, but "warm" garbage sound you can get with a free plugin.
Here is an idea: With the "heavy duty" equipment, most of the price comes from the logistics cost, inherent in every "heavy" part. I'm not an expert but I've been recently astonished by the notion of how much we are actually paying for weight vs. quality in a product! The only things that are "heavy" and cheap are those produced fully locally..
Also, the long term overhead cost of making a dedicated space for keeping just a few of these somewhat esoteric parts in stock,
vs moving 1000s of cheap parts year in and year out through that same physical (and partly mental) space required.
Transformers. That’s the biggest difference (in qualitative experience, as well as quantitative costs).
Nice Kate Bush tee
Finally someone notices!!
Why would you need headroom on a preamp.
Lots of interesting points here! Firstly, a while back I did some digging and found out that a lot of electronic components come out of the same factories and that the difference is the "name" that gets attached. So just because a component doesn't have a brand name doesn't necessarily mean that it's not as good. I still don't know how you can actually tell. Secondly, I think the comparison is a bit unfair as you're comparing something that adds "character" against something that is "clean". Do Behringer claim that their unit adds anything? Finally, it's somewhat ironic that back in the day engineers had endless problems with gear overheating, valves failing, etc. particularly mixing desks. I just watched a video where the engineer said he had to hit a channel on his Neve desk to get the bass to work! Another said that they no longer use a 670 on their mixbus as they realised that all it added was noise!
All good points. Behringer vs. Hamptone is really an apples-to-oranges comparison. There are opamp based designs that are far superior to the Hamptone in terms of performance. But the Behringer is not one of them. The Behringer is mostly designed to be a convenient mixer, and the preamp quality is secondary.
just talk about the preamps already, 60% of the video were about the case and knobs? kinda important too as its part of the price, and i guess power also makes a difference, but what about the actual preamps? lol
I hope the two people who disliked this video get indigestion.
Difference in sound quality is much smaller than price.
Even though USB provides only 5v practically all USB powered audio devices (even super cheap ones) run a usual 15v for the audio parts of the circuit.
Voltage doublers and triplers and beyond have been around for many years now.
Think about it... most of these cheap USB interfaces provide 48v (or damn near close to) for phantom power so 15v for running the audio components isn't an issue.
I like the spirit of your videos but you need to tighten up some of your details.
Yes of course you can up-convert voltage internally...but "the issue" is you can't do that without paying a significant price in noise, dynamic range etc.
dude, you didn't describe the chips in the cheap audio interface, at least the op-amps ... i wasted my time on this
Just babble babble!
Just opened up my old Presonus Fire Studio Project...Been curious for years