Mic Preamps - Do They Make a Difference
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Great advice. I've been a pro since 1985, started on Ameks, then moved on to Neves and SSLs. I think 99% of mic preamp fetishism is placebo. My spending priorities are monitoring, microphones, compression and EQ, in that order. Monitoring first, because if you can't trust what you're hearing, everything else is built on sand.
I'll say this, and I hope anyone who is just starting out hears this because I wish someone had told me this when I started; start making music. Plain and simple. If you're on a budget and all you can afford is $15 mics, and stock preamps from a used interface, then do it. Don't let the idea that you NEED this stuff prevent you from making music.
I've been passionate about recording my whole life, especially drums, and in order to do that you need A LOT of equipment. I just didn't do it for so long because I didn't want to buy less expensive gear. Even though I could have got so much experience and learned so much at younger age had I just bought what I could afford at the time. So the most important thing, is make music, get experience, just start doing it.
That being said, there's a few ways to look at signal flow. From the start and from the end. From the start, your signal is never going to improve as it goes through your gear. So if you have a bad sounding microphone, the preamp isn't going to fix it, in fact it'll probably accent the mic's short comings. If you have a bad mic and bad preamp, and a great compressor, that compressor is going to accent the flaws in the two because as you go down the signal chain each piece has a more dramatic effect on the signal the piece before it.
So microphones are without a doubt the most important part of the equation, I couldn't agree more. This is a great video full of great information, thanks for posting it.
This is perfect advice.
I find the comment take your music to the next level as laughable, the only thing that takes your music to the next level is great music, which today = crap
Great advice! It goes further up the chain too. Even the best microphone can't make a poor instrument or performance sound good. And even the best instrument or singer can't make a crappy room sound good. And so on.
@@WyattBrown377 Very true. Very very true.
Man amen to that! I stopped making music 10 years ago and finally starting recording again and using a mic preamp and it added so much warmth and presence to my vocals as well as making them blend more with the song. Less work adding efx and compression after also 👍🏼
I’ve been engineering for over 45 years. My home recording rig is simple. I consentrate on GIRATS. Get it right at the source. That’s way before the preamp. Labamba is a great example of that. The recording holds up today as well as it did the first time it was played on the radio. Why, GIRATES! Ritchie Valens was the original source. He lived that song. Lightning in a bottle. You want to take things to the next level? Look in the mirror. Weather your the artist , the producer, or the engineer. Take to the next level. Before you go out and spend a wad on a new pre. Buy the uad 476p. Put your existing tracks. Through it. Use the compressor and the 4k button if that process takes your performance to a new level get the preamp. Sell the uad interface. If the tracks you put the tracks through sound less than desired. GIRATS. Go back and record it again. You can do more with correct mic placement than anything. Mick Jagger’s voice was always recorded with an SM 57. A 99 dollar mic. Placed in the right place by an engineer who knew great mic placement. I spent years in the early days recording on a teac 3040 four track two sm57’s . I was forced to learn good miking techniques to achieve good recordings. I learned to get a better performance out of the artist I was recording. This is a small part of my recording journey. I shared it with you for a reason. You will never need that pre until you GIRATS first. GIRATS first pre afterwards. Enjoy the journey …
Good sentiment, but it’s a bit over-simplistic. Practiced or not, we all still need to curate our selection of equipment so that we aren’t limiting our sound. With your advice we all need to be as talented as some of the greats and that’s often not achievable or desirable
@@SD-cm6ifnot over simplistic or not. The last couple of days I was recording a nee grand piano and a new Martin Guitar. They sounded good because of the artist playing them. If I played them it wouldn’t matter. A great piano wouldn’t make me a pianist. Any new equipment these days is decent. As a sweetwater rep told me several years ago, they don’t sell any junk. There used to be junk on the market but not anymore and basic home level stuff is better than hit records were recorded years ago
Hey Barry, this is a very good one. In the early 1990's I purchased a Neumann U87 from a farmer who found it in his deceased son's possessions. He offered it to me for $400. The farmer wanted to to go to a good home and he was friends with my parents and knew me through them. I told him it was worth a lot more than $400 but he insisted. Still had the nice wood box that they sell with and the shock mount. I jumped on it a bought it. It didn't work in the shape it was in so I sent it to Neumann and had it repaired for an additional $350. It sounded good through my Allen & Heath GL3000, Yamaha 01V96 and my Focusrite Scarlett 4i4. Then last year I purchased an RME Fireface UCX II and that is when you could hear just how good the mic Neumann sounded. Several people have recorded through it and it is a prefect representation of their voice. For me and my recording, I use it through a SSL Alpha Channel to give it a bit more warmth and to take away the thinness in my voice.
Doing things in the right order make a world of difference when you get to the end. As I always say it is better to start at the start and move to the end rather than start in the middle and not know which way to go. Enjoyed the video as always and one of us still owes the other a beer and some conversation down at Captain Tony's in Key West. Since I'm coming from Illinois, you are going to have to buy the beer. Have a great one!!
I like that quote.
I got one for 400 too, died soon after . I think a capacitor died , should get it fixed!
@@MG53v8 I don’t know what it would cost to get fixed now, but definitely it would be a great investment.
It's also SUPER important to realize you have to KNOW what you're doing, that comes with experience. Once you do, you will know what really matters and what doesnt.
I go back & listen to my recordings from the late 90s/early 2000s. They were made with a $50 Samson SM-58 knockoff & stock pres on either a Yamaha MiniDisc 4-track or a MOTU module/PCI card combo. They sound great! Just make music.
So true. I started recording in the middle 80’s with an sm57 and a Tascam 244 Portastudio. Great recordings that I’m still proud of. It’s the players and the song that matter most.
Knowledge like this is much appreciated. Thank you for taking the time!
I now completely understand this! Finally someone who can explain this in simple terms. Thank you!
Barry, I always appreciate you honesty and integrity in all that you do. thanks
That was the best explanation of how things are and what to expect! Thanks for doing this video.
Julian Krause does an excellent job of measuring and analyzing the preamps and other circuitry in audio interfaces.
I asked Julian why would anyone spend a lot of money for an external preamp, and what else is there to measure, his answer is simply "I really don't know". There is basically nothing scientific to measure other than saturation, and even that is very low at minus 80db with many great pieces of gear. Basically, people are delusional most of the time.
@@BojanBojovic That is very interesting
can u link me the video?
@@lordberly It's more like a channel:
youtube.com/@JulianKrause
@@lordberly www.youtube.com/@JulianKrause
So glad I found your channel!! I love the way you explain your thoughts and opinions. This vid was spot on about the preamps not making a huge difference. I totally agree. Keep making great content!! Much ❤️ Barry!!
Nice video - organized, articulate and balanced perspective.
Have all kinds of preamps from Neve, API, UA, tube, transformer balanced etc. I think for as much as everyone (including myself) hype up the importance of preamp sonics. I don't think most folks on here (including myself) could tell you the difference on a source in a blind listening test with a busy mix.
In school we did side by side comparisons with a few mono sources with API 512c, Neve 1073, Daking, Millenia, and SSL preamps and then the Audient console pres. The character on the API and the Neve are amazing. All the outboard pres blew away the audient console pres though. Are they still useable? Yes, and they sound fine and make good recordings. Would I rather plug into one of the outboard pres? Absolutely, especially for the crucial sources, snare, vox, kick. Yeah it’s incremental, but pretty striking when you hear it.
Interesting. I've used all but the Daking, but I've heard them too. I'd argue the Audients are "faster" and cleaner than all but the Millenia. So it depends what you're trying to record. Also, depending on which SSLs you're talking, I think the Audients would regularly beat the SSL 4K pres.
I’m with you. When I got my first external pre (Vintech) my recordings took a huge leap forward. To my ears, quality preamps add weight, depth and shape the sound. For example, those vintechs do something really nice to the transients vs.something more clean. Don’t get me wrong quality transparent pres have their place too. It’s been a few years since Ive used interface pres other than UA but I’ve always found that many of them sound thin and papery
when compared to something more high end especially after having stacked many channels.
Were they all recording the same performance at the same time?
It can't be striking and incremental simultaneously. Sounds like a little confirmation bias going on. You're a perfect example of who he's talking about in the video.
Really great talk. Informative points made well and clearly, which make some real sense. I can agree, based on my own experiences. Thank you for sharing.
Barry! Great video once again.
A couple of thoughts though:
A) Back in the day, before the DAW claimed world dominance in the Project/Home Studio arena, in the Commercial Studio arena another product Pushed a bunch of OLD consoles (and thier preamps) out of control rooms all over the world. SSL.
There's a hundred reasons why, and regardless of whether or not one likes Solid State Logic, the game is pretty much: Before SSL and After SSL.
Unlike every product I'm about to see at NAMM in 2 hours, the SL 4000E really was the definition of "Game Changer".
However...
Producers and Engineers that had been tracking on Neves and APIs and --fill-in-the-blanks--, were less than impressed with the Recording they were getting. And a new phrase was born...
"Track on a Neve, Mix on an SSL"
(You could extend that to: track on an API, Trident, Harrison, MCI, Tube console, then mix on an SSL.)
Basically, for all the praise of SSL for it's unprecedented neutrality and control, it turned out that all that flawed equipment they had been using Added something that they wanted back (this should all sound familiar to anyone with a folder full of Analog emulation plugins).
So what emerged (oversimplified) was two-fold: either a split between tracking in a Recording Studio and mixing in a dedicated Mixing facility (some with no live rooms attached), rather than doing both at the same place; or if a Commercial Studio did "upgrade the console to an SSL", the also cannibalized thier old consoles and had thier Engineers "rack-em-up" and build rolling Racks or Side-Car mixers that could be patched into the Line-Inputs on the SSL and tracked through instead.
Two stars were born that are still with us in Real form from the actual original companies (BOTH you just said you own), and in countless Hardware and Software emulations: the Neve 1073 and API 312.
Rupert Neve in addition to building some of the greatest studio consoles of all time, also built mixers for the Broadcast marked, that used many of the same designs but in much smaller packages.
The Neve BCM-10 became the much sought after almost definition of a "Side-Car" mixer sitting next to an SSL.
And API had already developed a couple of modular systems that didn't require taking the whole channel strip out of the board, but individual modules: a single Preamp, EQ, Comp could be swapped in and out of thier consoles either for easy maintenance (the main purpose) or for creative variations.
Freelance Producers convinced API to make a portable box like DBX already had, that would allow them to take thier favorite modules, and chains, to any studio they happened to be working in.
The Lunch-Box was born, and with it the rush for ever manufacturer of 19-inch rack gear to make 500-series module versions.
So, sorry for the drawn out nostalgic digression, but I wanted to agree with your analysis, but push your time-line back from the early 2000 to the 90s and late 80s.
Thank you for the detailed history, I learned a lot!
This is super accurate and amazing! I started audio in the late 90s and got an internship at a commercial facility in the early/mid 2000s. they had a neve in the tracking room and an ssl 9000j in the mixing room. Several other studios I’ve been to would have a similar kinda setup. I never understood the whole ssl thing until i got the SSL 9000J channel strip by Plugin alliance. That thing is super transparent but also really glues things together. Early on I LOVED the flexibility of SSL too. It came with dynamics and great parametric EQ with way more bands than a Neve or API. I was not a HUGE fan of the EQ though other than a few things on drums for example. It always felt too aggressive and put on its own sound. These days I mix as I track if you will. Adding a bit of compression and EQ on the way in, which based on what i know about pro studios is how they do things and the mixing phase is more about getting all these amazing sounds to glue together nicely along with creative FX stuff.
Yep. First time I had an external pre was 95. A part of racked up 1073’s from Toby Larking Audio. No I don’t have them now! 😢
@@colindayo I’ll assume that’s: ‘A PAIR of 1073s from TONY Larking Audio’ ?
If so I’m jealous, and sorry for your loss.
I never got to hear His 1073s, (wait were they TLA remakes or racked NEVEs?)
I’m pretty sure that he, and his head engineer (who’s name I can’t recall) left Neve to start TL Audio.
And got started building Neve Preamps like yours.
My first ‘real’ preamp in 1996 was a TL Audio PA2…that I still have!
I loved it so much that I went on to acquire a TL Audio C1 (probably their most famous ‘best kept secret’).
It’s a Stereo/Dual-channel Tube Compressor with 2 more Mic Pres in front.
Then I picked up a TL Audio V1, an 8-channel 2U box with no controls on the front other than Power. On the back are just 8-ins and 8-outs. Inside however is 8 high-voltage Valve/Tube stages that when you send your signals through, they come out sweeter. Gain stage to taste.
(I also got the 2U passive Switcher that allows Inserting and routing the Valves during tracking and again during mixing. Interesting piece.)
I also picked up a later Indigo Series TL Audio 2020? I think. That’s essentially a 1U version of the C1 without the Mic Pres. Sounds slightly different, still amazing, but is years newer and has different tubes inside.
Then on my quest to find a TL Audio EQ1 to complete my set, I accidentally found the most incredible and rare piece in my collection.
A TL Audio M1 8. An 8-channel sidecar Mixer, each with a Preamp and a 4-band EQ, into a Stereo Bus. ALL TUBE!
Each channel passes through 4 valve stages, then another pair on the master bus.
There are 18 12AX7s on the back of this thing.
In the 90s and 2000s TL Audio made a lot of noise with their Modern Tube designs that for many culminated in their full 32-channel VTC Console.
That desk was used on a Number of hit records over the decades and is still highly sought after.
To my understanding though, the development of it basically broke the company.
My Console however is like the ‘concept car’ version that was only released in a small batch (don’t know how many). They made a number of production models afterwards, but their signal paths were simplified in order to add more features and still hit a price point. So the M1s and M3s you’ll find on Google are ‘tube trackers’ , still amazing, and include channel faders & auxes that mine lacks, but their not the same inside.
And it’s all still safe n sound 100 yards from me begging to be powered up and put to use!
@@G_handle I recall TL Audio (hope i got this right) wanting to build big tube mixer without solid state components in the signal path. Of course it didn't happen because of price, heat, weight, etc.
Their VTC Console is very similar to C1 with SSM2017 input followed by ECC83 on HT of 250V, so it is a hybrid design. Most other run tubes at 48V ruining the sound with distortion and other problems.
TL Audio rack gear got attacks on forums like Gearslutz although that wasn't a problem because satisfied users soon silenced them by telling about the sound. One thing that sticks out are a bit hard to get pots, they were using cheap ones costing 1-2eur today, buying from them was expensive.
The owner said their biggest problem were sales in USA because they couldn't sell directly, meaning gear on the biggest market in the world costed much more than in Europe.
p.s.: did you ever try Langeving AM-5116b, D.Fearn VT1 or RCA preamp he based VT1 on? Each belong to one side of the spectrum, meaning VT1 is classic single ended (cap coupled), AM class A push pull. Various revisions tested blew me away, very few others sound as good. Most of them are single ended for some reason...
Excellent topic and great synopsis Barry. I really appreciate that you talked about every piece in the chain to explain your point about mic preamps.
+1 on RME interfaces. Along with excellent conversion, outstanding mic pres, you get the best drivers and support in the industry. Been a customer for over 20 years and my first PCI card from them still works and sounds great. I've since upgraded to the latest Babyface and UCXII. Both fantastic interfaces.
I have been playing since the 60's and recording since the 70's. The most important element in any recording is the performance. PERIOD!! Working hard to be proficient on your instruments of choice and learning to manipulate them in a way that sounds good and fits with the music well, will yield far greater results than every other aspect of the recording process. Microphone choice is second. Mic placement is third in the chain. After that there are varying degrees of returns depending upon the mic placement.
Using close miking techniques are more forgiving of room acoustics so the mic preamp would probably come fourth in the equation and room acoustics would be fifth. When using mic placement that is further from the source room acoustics would inhabit fourth place and mic preamps would come in fifth. Your mileage may vary but that is the general concensus.
The moral of the story is practice your instrument. In the process of practicing it is a good idea to record yourself. That way, when you listen back, you can have a more objective viewpoint for what you need to practice. Practicing is more than just learning what and where the notes are. It has to do with learning how to get the best sound out of your instrument as well. For me, it took me a long time to learn what it was supposed to sound like. Once I figured that out it was just a matter of learning how to capture it. When recording your practice you can learn to do both at once.
I have many great microphones as well as API, Great River, Focusrite, Purple Audio, and RME mic preamps I use to capture different elments. I could do all of my recordings with any one of those and yield excellent results. Having a selection just gives me slight advantages for getting more refined sounds when tracking.
I agree with the over arching sentiment and believe it’s important not to believe gear will be the answer to bad recordings. But great mixes in the box require a much higher skill level and experience. Once i upgraded my mic to the akg 414 and then added the ssl 500 preamp, mixing is so much easier and faster as the vocals come out needing very little plugin processing and i can get to my desired sound with little work. Analogue gear is very graceful that its hard to overdue it on processing as well. Will the end user care? nope, but in the pursuit of being a master at the craft like u said all these things compound to help make your next masterpiece something that you and the fans enjoy.
Great video. Great advice. A good microphone is super important, in fact the most important thing in your front end.
Barry is a great GAS antidote. Awesome communicator 👍
This dude is direct to the point and not boring like other people on TH-cam
Thanks again, Barry!
This was great. Thanks.
No mention of Tube Mic Preamps… good ones are not cheap but if you get one with several transformer options and drive controls it’s like turning every mic in your locker into a tube mic. Amazing the versatility, and assuming folks already have a couple decent mics, a good Tube Pre will dramatically expand the sonic pallet… it’s more than just a little change! (Not disagreeing that everything in the signal chain matters… but things you do in the analog domain before converters can drastically change the final sound in ways it’s difficult to replicate once in the box.)
B) As to the premise of this video, if your basic answer is: Yes, but other things matter more. Then I totally agree.
However, Mic Preamps absolutely do matter, which is why I wrote the previous dissertation. (As does everything in the signal chain between the source and the record button.)
The Same microphone in Ten different Preamps is Ten different Microphones.
And ironically, just yesterday I watched another Sweetwater endorsed TH-cam who was shooting out Exactly This:
A year ago he amassed a desk full of Warm Audio 1073 19-inch clones, enough to mic his full drum kit.
This year he installed an actual Trident 68 console, obviously with mic Preamps on every channel.
So in this video, he Splits the signals from each mic 1-for-1 into both sets of Preamps and presents to you the difference. It ain't subtle.
th-cam.com/video/ckGYT2a2Tvc/w-d-xo.html
Nice! Yeah warm audio are pretty awful, though i found their neve 1073 clone to be their best piece of gear, but overall it’s cheap knock offs that don’t sound great. I don’t ever recommend them. Stam audio is much better for cheap clones that sound good. Gonna check out that video!
Thanks for linking that video. It was an interesting watch. I think one thing to note, and he even mentions it, is that he was driving the warm preamps harder. Even before he mentioned that I was thinking the warms sounded like they were being driven harder. I don't have any hardware, but I've used plugins that emulate neve preamps and I've noticed it's really easy to drive them too hard. On drums they tend to go from fairly transparent to compressed with no transients really quickly. I think that's why the tridents sounded more punchy. It would be interesting to see a shootout of preamps with clean settings. I bet the difference is much more subtle.
@@weeschwee Agreed. First, I think the timing of this video and that is ironically perfect.
I also watched him setting up and thought, you can't really hit preamps or anything else at identical levels thinking you're getting apples-for-apples.
Each different piece responds to gainstaging differently. That test does tell you Something useful, but there are more useful tests.
To begin with, b.i.t.d. you would test each piece in your arsenal to find:
A) where's the noise floor
B) how high can you go with No distortion (so the cleanest setting)
C) at what point do you push it and the distortion is unacceptable
D) between maximum clean and too much distortion, that's your usable range
E) now where in there does this particular signal sound the best, that's the infamous "Sweet Spot".
Neve 1073s, API 312s, and every other Preamp is going to have different answers to the above questions.
A couple more thoughts:
1) Most people don't have access to A/B test a full set of Preamps like this.
And this is the best way.
Because the differences Accumulate!
One Pre vs another Will tell you something, but one full Console worth of Preamps across many channels, vs another Console or Rack full of Preamps, that's where you'll see the BIG difference the minute differences make.
Hence producers bringing or renting thier own favorite Lunchboxes, Racks, or Sidecars during the tracking stage.
2) So for this guy, since he luckily owns both and can presumably take his time testing, tweaking, and tracking his own drums. He should keep those splits setup, but rather than Match settings between both sets, find the Best settings for each, then Track Both regularly.
You could think of it like Micing a Cabinet, but also tracking a D.I.
Then in the mix, you could either use whichever one fits the mix better, or blend between the two. Or use one for choruses and then other for verses. Or use one Dry and send the other to the Reverbs, or Crush.
Either way...
Options.
I had privilege of using and comparing most high quality vintage and many new preamps, beside some of their copies. It makes me wonder why do API/Neve come up so often when there are other solid state options sounding as good or better than this two.
Tube preamps weren't mentioned despite being simply great for many things like vocals, bass, drums too, acoustic instr., etc. I noticed they tend to make mid priced mics sound better as if they were expensive mics.. Cost can be issue with these, although some out of fashion models like Peavey cost very little while sounding great with replacement of output transformers, diy by technicians servicing gear can also be cheap beside having custom controls or sound shaped for the user.
Companies like Warm Audio are using cheapest materials possible, transformers tend to be ok if present but they will certainly not function properly longer than 10 years or so. I'm quite impressed by the sound and quality of Coil Audio, price of their modules is low enough it might be worth finding someone who will rack and power them...
@@Signal_Glow A) I was unaware of Coil, so I'm checking those out now.
B) I very much agree about the obsession with SSL, API, Neve. To help answer why, it isn't just the preamps, it's the Consoles this Pres were in. Commercial Studios basically Had to have those three food groups, because those were the 3 main console companies. If you had one Console, you better have the other two's Preamps (and EQs, and Channel Comps, and Bus Compressors). So studios would often likely have an SSL desk with a pair or rack of 1073s and/or 312s, or sidecar consoles. So all the basic options. I also agree that Tube Mic Pres are often infinitely more useful.
C) Just this morning I responded to another comment on this same video about my TL Audio tube obsession. Check my other comment that starts wit "Barry!"
D) To throw more light on your question, I just spent last week at NAMM. If it wasn't already clear, there really is an Old School / New School divide within the industry. Many of these new schoolers will never go beyond the preamps in an interface. They're buying cardboard boxes with pretty graphics on the outside, then filming themselves opening the box. The idea that they would solder up an XLR cable, let alone a Patchbay, swap out Tubes or Transformers, or re-cap a Channelstrip....I don't see that happening.
You rock Barry!!!
Just found your channel... Great advice Barry. The acceleration of home recording with digital exploded in the 1990's, but AD/DA conversion and built-in mic pre-amps to those units lacked the ability to even service exceptional mics. It was in that period that specialized converters emerged to help resolve, and external mic pre-amps definitely had a significant quality improvement from what was stock on those interfaces/recording devices. I recall the huge difference a two channel $1,500 mic preamp unit made with any decent mic back then. That same tube mic pre-amp that I still have now has a much reduced impact on mic performance today, since the level of conversion, pre-amp quality, and ITB plugins/adjustments are so far advanced now. Worrying about these external components in the signal chain has been massively reduced with the quality of mic pre's and conversion in interfaces today, add to that the quality of mics available at prices unheard of back then as well. I still have and use that external tube Demeter mic pre (and tube compressor), but only because I have them, for flavor (which could be my false bias). New setups with mid to high end interfaces wouldn't really be lacking without them.
Best video about mic pres on TH-cam :) Thank you :)
Excellent and timely talk Barry. Always love your perspective. I am at the edge of this rabbit hole of 'wanting' to upgrade from prosumer stuff to more 'pro' and learning a lot. I have a couple decent higher-end mic's but not much beyond - Sennheiser 441, AKG 414 B/ULS. I am beginning to have this feeling that my approach to home recording needs to have more of the 'proximity' effect of instruments in my recordings. In other words - more of a sense of authentic 3D space. It seems easy to get a good direct sound and pepper with phenomenal digital ambiance, but my favorite recordings have a sense of position/depth. To me, this smacks of room and mic placement, and probably a whole different set of mics.
Ayyyyyeee! Barry’s back!! Can’t wait for that new channel !!
I feel that as a singer a pre-amp does make a significant difference and the right one can make you feel more confident in your singing, along with the right compressor and EQ. BTW, I see you have a couple of SSL UF8s, would really appreciate a review of it for recording at home studio, and whether it would significantly improve workflow over something like a faderport with single fader.
Mic preamps matter but not as much as people think. People listen to songs, not gear.
But ppl listen to great records = great mics and mic pres.
@@mrflynn01 exactly
I not agree with the last replies.
I was in a session , we tried an AKG C12, Neumann U47 with a world class pre I can’t remember it’s name.
Finally we decided to use the Neumann. We weren’t really joyful with the vocal tone.
At the mix stage I decided to give a try and re record the voice with my trusty Rode NT1 and ART tubepac mic pre. It was absolutely amazing. I don’t say that the other original track was bad, what I mean is for this particular female singer this combination fitted better in the song.
Lord is my witness, hope your not atheist !! Haha
@@mrflynn01 It's not the gear it's the ear and it always will be listening to that and what you said is the reason bad mixing choices and horrible songs get created.
Thanks sir barry
Probably the most legit break down regarding this topic. Let’s go! 👌
Great video, could you follow up with your rankings of some of the less expensive and mid range built-in preamp like the Scarlett and Apollo, etc.
So great vid ! I have U67 RI with baby face fs and try to get preamp for some colored sound on vox and classical instruments. Please advise. Thank you so much!
Mic preamps make a HUGE difference! Especially in the digital mixing workflow.
With a class A compressor and Class A Mic, would make a big difference.
Agree. But like Barry said once you get a really good mic pre anything above it is just incremental and debatable.
Having done nulls test between NEVE and API with spilt signals. They are not that different. Almost null 100% percent.
@@dillontaylor8035 I’m sure they are close, but did you try pushing them a bit? API sounds incredible slightly saturated. The only reason to get high end pres is because you want to push them in some way. The natural harmonic distortion is amazing. It came make things sound super forward and up front in a mix without needed to compress or do anything. Talk about a time saver.
@@CreativeMindsAudio thanks for the reply and yes I do like pushing them. I do think though that most people especially those new to audio just set them clean. When pushed, they sound amazing and are different!
Put a SM57 into a focusrite RED 7 that 57 will sound very different - that being said it does depend on a lot other factors as mentioned in the video. Great work Barry!
Good information Barry, I have good mics & good preamps, and I understand the grail of what you're talking about; I use good XLR cables. Should I invest in a super high-end cable line such as Mogami or better during the recording signal in/out with the Preamp of choice or even a High-end mic going straight through to my, for example, Focusrite Clarett+ 8Pre USB-C Audio Interface for the optimum recording of any source?
Great observations, it always starts with the source, than the mic, position of the mic , pre amp , often i hear about great guitar pickups but nobody talks about the wood and balance of the instruments , its all about the source
Great video once again! I have a question for you: What is the difference between apollo twin duo preams a converters and the apollo solo ones?
I have a variety of preamps - internal and external. (Avalon Design, Audient, SSL, Neumann etc). It is enjoyable to have a variety but all of the preamps I have work well. I agree with you that it is not necessary to have other preamps if the basic preamps are good quality.
When I was assisting, the engineer hired a bunch of Massenburg GML 8300 mic pre-amps to record drums. They are damn expensive but you can hear the quality, the transient response was night and day over anyhting I'd heard till then.
Agree 100%. Spent the weekend recording various instruments into several of the preamps I own (including those in my audio interface, a Tascam 16x08) and doing comparisons. The difference, if any (I certainly couldn't tell), is negligible. It's the combination of it all that, as Mr. Johns says, makes the difference.
Indeed, that's what I found out eventually. All the gear needs to match each other.
I was looking into getting a pair of high end channel strips until I decided to just stay all in the box. I don’t have experience of real Neve / API preamps but with my UA Apollo and Luna etc. it sounds pretty decent to me! I remember how my recordings sounded back in the mid-2000s with my old Digi 002 and this sounds so much better.
Having said that, as a bass player I have a number of different bass preamps in my home studio. 😂
Thank you!
Incremental improvements are the key thing. I have tried budget items and I have purchased some SSL gear. Each thing I have, I took the time to focus on two things: Making the left and right channel the best I can. I got SM57s, 58s, some Blue mics, some good cables, an interface like M-Audio AIR that sounds really well (also had a Tascam 24, Mackie, Peavey... they're Preamps ruined my sound). I then saved up for SSL channel strips on sale, then a GCOMP, then and Ultraviolet. That helped me earn the money to get more and more. and a great Soundcraft UI24R. Same mics, more cables, boom stands, more Blue mics 57s and 58s. I even bought some JBL Eon715s, then a snake, just by trying to make the left and right channel sound the best I can.
The key was to do the best with a stereo setup. push my skills and lower a cost for someone to come track, REINVEST into the recording. and in one year, I have been able to enjoy it. I run sound too for shows.
BUT, I do not know what to do next. Advice?
Interesting discussion.
Good stuff.👍🥃
You are a great man
I have done null test between NEVE and API with spilt signals so it was the same performance. It almost completely nulls. Do what you want with that information.
you are on point
The best thing you said is that these are incremental things that add up to the finished product. No magic bullet, just lots of small things that add up to the whole.
Niice shirt. All I know is if using an external pre-amp then make sure you can bypass the internal pre-amps in your audio interface; otherwise, you’ll be getting the sound of the internal pre-amp too and maybe more of it!
Awesome thanks for the l lesson
You are 100% correct! Back in the late 90's, I used to make my recordings using the internal preamps from my Mackie 32-8 bus mixer. It worked just fine. The end user didn't listen for API mojo. They wanted a clean vocal sound, and that's exactly what they got. In fact, I would be hard pressed if anyone outside of being in the room while tracking vocal is going to reject the sound because a Neve was not used. Does the Neve make a difference? You bet it does. Currently, I'm using the Manley reference mic with a Manley Voxbox as a vocal chain. I could as easily plug into the mackie 32-8, and with good compression and EQ, I can obtain a really good sound as well. The noise specs may not be as good as the Neve preamps, but when you have blazing guitars and loud drums and you are cutting hard rock, that noise gets masked and you will never hear it. I worked the studios of the late 70's to early 80's, and remember when 30IPS started to be the tape speed of choice. Yes, 15IPS had a bit more tape hiss, but the sound was great. Engineers started using 30IPS for everything, including loud and heavy rock. At the end of the day, you couldn't hear the tape hiss of 15IPS. Same allies with mic preamps as far as I'm concerned. Thanks for this great video.
This is a superb video Barry, really informative and honest. It put my desires for a sweet preamp into perspective. Turns out a microphone upgrade or two will be more impactful for me now. Have you made any videos on microphone tonality and how to choose the right mic for the right situation?
Thank you 🙏
Hi, I've been mixing along time now. And I found a big difference when I went tested it I did a test.. I recorded vocals, bass & guitar through an Audient I'd 22. And then I went through my new Neve 1073 mic pre right through the converters of the Audient id22. By-passing the Audient mic pre. The Neve added so much more weight to the sound and natural saturation. And it's accumulative. So when I listened back to all the tracks from the Audient id22 mic pre and compared to all the tracks through the Neve. The overall sound was so much bigger, with that nice low-end. It was clearly a big difference. To my ears. I've been in the music business for over 40yrs. I realize a beginner and someone fairly new may not hear a major difference. But those with a trained ears will notice a big difference. And converters make a big difference. I compared my Aurora N TB 32 to the Audient converter and the MOTU 16A Converters. And you can hear the separation and air around the sound as I describe it.. My biggest thing is we're mixing songs. So it's deceiving to just listen to one track. If you have one track with a nice mic pre that can be driven into beautiful saturation and really nice conversion.. And you compare 32 tracks with an Audient id22 and 32 tracks with Neve Pres and Aurora N conversion. It's a very big difference. This is from my experience, doing these tests.. Love your channel...🙂👍👍👍
Microphones and rooms guys!! Pre and convertors are so much more subtle.
The industry goes through periods of innovating new products, then periods of recreating vintage products.
I've got a TLA stereo preamp compressor, from the 90s. It's not a clone of any vintage gear, it's its own thing, and it sounds fantastic.
People buy vintage clones for the same reason they buy signature guitars: if they get the same kit, they can pretend to be their hero.
Hey man, this video is fire you just spoke the truth because I’ve been recording music for over 15 years and lately I was using the Avalon 737 plug-in and after that I also went out and purchased the real Avalon 737 hardware and there’s really not a big difference
great stuff Barry, just out of curiosity, I can see in the backgroud you own a Heritage Audio HA73EQ, how do you compare it to the Warm Audio WA73EQ? Build and sound quality wise? Cannot decide which one to buy and please don't say it doesn't matter. It does and I care haha, thank you
Thanks for always putting out solid material, Barry! Have you played with any Arturia plugins lately?
I would like to say, I’ve owned the bae 1073 dmp twice. They sounded pretty good but then realized my apogee quartet internal preamps where just as good. I recommend the apogee preamps on the quartet. They go up 75 db of gain. The bae does 80 db of gain. I use 40-50 db of gain which is plenty. Also, I recommend a good digital compressor. The cl1b from soft tube sounds great with light compression.
Hell yes they do !
500 format is the best way to experience without spending too much and loosing money.
You're a fantastic narrator! well done!
thank you
Completely agree.
Absolutely, the truth!
Do you ever mix through your preamps and do you find it worth the round trip? Or do you get more flavor from certain compressors, say an 1176 where even say with the compression off you can use as line amp for color?
I agree, that record production is incremental. But, we're often at the mercy of our weakest link whether it's talent or gear related. If you have a top shelf mic that cost many thousands, and hear what the differences are running it through prosumer amps versus a BAE, Neve, API etc...the differences will be audible. Whether one likes those differences or not is purely subjective.
All I want to know is if a good external preamp can lower the noise floor? I use UAD Apollo Twin Interface
30 years ago, an audio engineer told me when I was first starting, "the difference between mid cost gear and high end $4000+ gear is only subtle, the steps up in price are huge compared to the ever decreasing percentages of "better" you gain. I'd also add that these days, the general huge rise in quality across the board and the extremely low ROI most mix engineers make compared to the "good ol' days" is so low and the destruction of the end quality by converting to MP3 and watnot, makes it a silly waste of money to invest in very much high end gear. The secret, in the end, is to spend your money wisely.
Nice video. What mic did you use in this?
I think that if you have a low budget the best inversion you can do is in a very good audio interface and a good microphone before a external mic Pre Amp
I think preamps make a small difference to condenser mics but a big difference to dynamics/passive ribbons when using them on lower level sources. 60dB of gain for my SM7B on my previous interface (Antelope Discrete 8) was very hissy and near unusable for quieter vocalists and regular speech. Maxed out 70dB of gain on my Neve 88RLB has a much quieter noise floor which makes my SM7B more usable and easier to do post processing to. Fethead is no longer required.
This has been my experience too! I think the big name/higher dollar preamps also do inject a nuanced character as well and to me at least that is more easily discerned on dynamic microphones vs. condenser s. Perhaps it is a combination of the preamp circuit design/topology, the larger amount of gain needed and how the preamp input impedance loads the microphone output.
Which pre would you say would be good for shooting IR’s??….I am just starting out recording,but recently started shooting IR’s Of my cabs….right now just using my interface’s built in preamps…or does the mic pre matter in this scenario?
What interface do you recommend with a wa-8000 condenser mic ?
I recommend the apogee interface like a quartet, duet or symphony desktop. The first two on the used market are affordable. I paid 1500 on the quartet brand new but used they are like 500. The internal preamps sound fantastic. They compete with neve 1073. I owned the bae 1073 and sold it when I realized my internal pres were just as good.
In my experience, the high quality preamp shines when using low output dynamic mics. The difference in noise level alone can be dramatic. Condenser mics with higher outputs ask a lot less of the preamp.
Would be curious to hear your thoughts on mic quality across different price ranges. You mentioned $300 LDC's here and then $4000 but there's a huge gap between those. I see you got several WA products on your desk, what do you think of their higher end mics and other stuff that is a bit more economical? How do you feel they compare to the much more expensive clones?
It’s facts spend money on best mics and the best mic pre your money can buy you.
No it's not false!!! statement
IMO, having owned nearly every boutique preamp available, and I have found preamp differences to be about tonal nuance, transient response, noise floor, and distortion character. Pretty much ALL preamps are relatively neutral /linear/ clean, until they pushed /cranked/turned up.
All things equal, such as recording technique, gainstaging etc, would there be a difference in sound quality, for recording just voices in the context of voiceover, narrations, and room dialogue using the sound devices mixpre-3 II VS Prism Sound Lyra-1 2x2, using a good mic such as sennheiser mkh 416?
Very interesting. Because a pre-amp is transitive, in that without a signal to amplify, it does nothing. It amplifies the -> source
i would have thought you would be over here going to NAMM 2023? Il'l let you know what's NEW @ Universal Audio & what they've done :) I have a $4K NEVE ( "SHELFORD CHANNEL" ) ...I use it but I've done comparison & still find myself using UA "UNISEN" ? Running a TELEFUNKEN TF29 Cond. Mic ( for me )
I used UAD Unison preamps for six years. I then recorded some vocals at a professional studio. I noticed the vocals recorded at the professional studio sounded better than the vocals I recorded with UAD Unison preamps.
After 5-6 months of research, I purchased the Neve Shelford Channel. Now my vocals sound just as good as the vocals I recorded at the professional studio.
A few weeks ago, I recorded some vocals with UAD Unison. No comparison to the Shelford Channel.
I think this was a fair way to characterize preamps, mainly due to potentially false expectations people have. For acoustic instruments and drums, I find good preamps absolutely make a noticeable difference, but I’m not expecting any preamp to make a bad drum sound good. What I do expect is for the sound to have the subtle character of the preamp that all adds up with multiple tracks in a mix. Also, with good outboard gear in general you’re getting better sound to tape rather than having to do more mixing to get the tone you want.
The mic preamps on these newer interfaces really does close the gap a lot like the unison preamps from UA. I have Golden Age, Warm Audio, and I remember having a first gen Mbox. Things have definitely changed. I'm stuck right now with an Apollo Twin using the unison with a Neumann TLM 102 and the Slate Digital mic with the software preamp and mic emulation. I almost always have decapitator after for more grit as well. I rarely grab my Shure SM7B, but I got rid of my cloudlifter with the Apollo. I don't want to invest anymore into my apollo/UA preamps and still have the Golden Age and Warm Audio outboards which may indeed find a home with a new Babyface. Still, it's all still better than that MBox or whatever it was that came before.
I have a Telefunken preamp with a Tube mic. I’m still trying to learn the sound.
Now the Neve 542 Tape Sim WILL make a difference!
What do you think about Neve 88 M soundcard? Thanks!!
Cool video!! I'm by no means an expert but I would also point a beginner to maybe do room treatment or a good pair of monitors aside from investing in some good mics.
Everybody seems to like the RME preamps, but what is your honest opinion on the Audient ID24 preamps? Do you have any experience with them at all? My next purchase is going to be a OPR U87 1:1 clone, by Open Plan Recording. It is supposed to be the only faithful recreation of the U87. I really want a BAE 1073, but I honestly should learn how to use my interface before I spend too much more money. 🙂👍🏻
I think a good channel strip will make more of a difference (obviously at a higher cost) due to the relation between the manufacturer's Pre, EQ and Compressor, which are designed to sound good together. But yes, you need decent mics first.
With my SE Electronic Titan condenser, I can immediately tell the difference going through my Midas XL preamp or direct into Motu Track16 interface.
no but they had great mic preamps in the studio console...you got a Harrison, a Calrec,an API, a MCI, a Neve or an SSL you don't n need external mic preamps indeed...But today most people don't use those desks anymore so having a solid stereo preamp is a must in my opinion.
agreed on the Microphone vs preamp
Also Harrison/MCI are also great boards.
Hi Barry I'm just a record in the box guy.great video 👍