Great advice. I've been a pro since 1985, started on Ameks, then moved on to Neves and SSLs. I think 99% of mic preamp fetishism is placebo. My spending priorities are monitoring, microphones, compression and EQ, in that order. Monitoring first, because if you can't trust what you're hearing, everything else is built on sand.
The more important thing than spending on monitors is listening on the same monitors for a long time every type of music so yor ears get use to the sound and you can reference, compare to the other songs of what you're doing with your stuff, it doesn't matter on what you're listening if the speakers are pro level monitors. You can have the best monitors on earth but if your ears are not use to it, you'll make garbage ...
I'll say this, and I hope anyone who is just starting out hears this because I wish someone had told me this when I started; start making music. Plain and simple. If you're on a budget and all you can afford is $15 mics, and stock preamps from a used interface, then do it. Don't let the idea that you NEED this stuff prevent you from making music. I've been passionate about recording my whole life, especially drums, and in order to do that you need A LOT of equipment. I just didn't do it for so long because I didn't want to buy less expensive gear. Even though I could have got so much experience and learned so much at younger age had I just bought what I could afford at the time. So the most important thing, is make music, get experience, just start doing it. That being said, there's a few ways to look at signal flow. From the start and from the end. From the start, your signal is never going to improve as it goes through your gear. So if you have a bad sounding microphone, the preamp isn't going to fix it, in fact it'll probably accent the mic's short comings. If you have a bad mic and bad preamp, and a great compressor, that compressor is going to accent the flaws in the two because as you go down the signal chain each piece has a more dramatic effect on the signal the piece before it. So microphones are without a doubt the most important part of the equation, I couldn't agree more. This is a great video full of great information, thanks for posting it.
I find the comment take your music to the next level as laughable, the only thing that takes your music to the next level is great music, which today = crap
Great advice! It goes further up the chain too. Even the best microphone can't make a poor instrument or performance sound good. And even the best instrument or singer can't make a crappy room sound good. And so on.
Man amen to that! I stopped making music 10 years ago and finally starting recording again and using a mic preamp and it added so much warmth and presence to my vocals as well as making them blend more with the song. Less work adding efx and compression after also 👍🏼
I’ve been engineering for over 45 years. My home recording rig is simple. I consentrate on GIRATS. Get it right at the source. That’s way before the preamp. Labamba is a great example of that. The recording holds up today as well as it did the first time it was played on the radio. Why, GIRATES! Ritchie Valens was the original source. He lived that song. Lightning in a bottle. You want to take things to the next level? Look in the mirror. Weather your the artist , the producer, or the engineer. Take to the next level. Before you go out and spend a wad on a new pre. Buy the uad 476p. Put your existing tracks. Through it. Use the compressor and the 4k button if that process takes your performance to a new level get the preamp. Sell the uad interface. If the tracks you put the tracks through sound less than desired. GIRATS. Go back and record it again. You can do more with correct mic placement than anything. Mick Jagger’s voice was always recorded with an SM 57. A 99 dollar mic. Placed in the right place by an engineer who knew great mic placement. I spent years in the early days recording on a teac 3040 four track two sm57’s . I was forced to learn good miking techniques to achieve good recordings. I learned to get a better performance out of the artist I was recording. This is a small part of my recording journey. I shared it with you for a reason. You will never need that pre until you GIRATS first. GIRATS first pre afterwards. Enjoy the journey …
Good sentiment, but it’s a bit over-simplistic. Practiced or not, we all still need to curate our selection of equipment so that we aren’t limiting our sound. With your advice we all need to be as talented as some of the greats and that’s often not achievable or desirable
@@SD-cm6ifnot over simplistic or not. The last couple of days I was recording a nee grand piano and a new Martin Guitar. They sounded good because of the artist playing them. If I played them it wouldn’t matter. A great piano wouldn’t make me a pianist. Any new equipment these days is decent. As a sweetwater rep told me several years ago, they don’t sell any junk. There used to be junk on the market but not anymore and basic home level stuff is better than hit records were recorded years ago
I go back & listen to my recordings from the late 90s/early 2000s. They were made with a $50 Samson SM-58 knockoff & stock pres on either a Yamaha MiniDisc 4-track or a MOTU module/PCI card combo. They sound great! Just make music.
So true. I started recording in the middle 80’s with an sm57 and a Tascam 244 Portastudio. Great recordings that I’m still proud of. It’s the players and the song that matter most.
I have been playing since the 60's and recording since the 70's. The most important element in any recording is the performance. PERIOD!! Working hard to be proficient on your instruments of choice and learning to manipulate them in a way that sounds good and fits with the music well, will yield far greater results than every other aspect of the recording process. Microphone choice is second. Mic placement is third in the chain. After that there are varying degrees of returns depending upon the mic placement. Using close miking techniques are more forgiving of room acoustics so the mic preamp would probably come fourth in the equation and room acoustics would be fifth. When using mic placement that is further from the source room acoustics would inhabit fourth place and mic preamps would come in fifth. Your mileage may vary but that is the general concensus. The moral of the story is practice your instrument. In the process of practicing it is a good idea to record yourself. That way, when you listen back, you can have a more objective viewpoint for what you need to practice. Practicing is more than just learning what and where the notes are. It has to do with learning how to get the best sound out of your instrument as well. For me, it took me a long time to learn what it was supposed to sound like. Once I figured that out it was just a matter of learning how to capture it. When recording your practice you can learn to do both at once. I have many great microphones as well as API, Great River, Focusrite, Purple Audio, and RME mic preamps I use to capture different elments. I could do all of my recordings with any one of those and yield excellent results. Having a selection just gives me slight advantages for getting more refined sounds when tracking.
In school we did side by side comparisons with a few mono sources with API 512c, Neve 1073, Daking, Millenia, and SSL preamps and then the Audient console pres. The character on the API and the Neve are amazing. All the outboard pres blew away the audient console pres though. Are they still useable? Yes, and they sound fine and make good recordings. Would I rather plug into one of the outboard pres? Absolutely, especially for the crucial sources, snare, vox, kick. Yeah it’s incremental, but pretty striking when you hear it.
Interesting. I've used all but the Daking, but I've heard them too. I'd argue the Audients are "faster" and cleaner than all but the Millenia. So it depends what you're trying to record. Also, depending on which SSLs you're talking, I think the Audients would regularly beat the SSL 4K pres.
I’m with you. When I got my first external pre (Vintech) my recordings took a huge leap forward. To my ears, quality preamps add weight, depth and shape the sound. For example, those vintechs do something really nice to the transients vs.something more clean. Don’t get me wrong quality transparent pres have their place too. It’s been a few years since Ive used interface pres other than UA but I’ve always found that many of them sound thin and papery when compared to something more high end especially after having stacked many channels.
It can't be striking and incremental simultaneously. Sounds like a little confirmation bias going on. You're a perfect example of who he's talking about in the video.
@@superiorjamtracks2189 it can be incremental on singular tracks, depending on the instrument. But in a full mix everything together sounds totally different.
Barry! Great video once again. A couple of thoughts though: A) Back in the day, before the DAW claimed world dominance in the Project/Home Studio arena, in the Commercial Studio arena another product Pushed a bunch of OLD consoles (and thier preamps) out of control rooms all over the world. SSL. There's a hundred reasons why, and regardless of whether or not one likes Solid State Logic, the game is pretty much: Before SSL and After SSL. Unlike every product I'm about to see at NAMM in 2 hours, the SL 4000E really was the definition of "Game Changer". However... Producers and Engineers that had been tracking on Neves and APIs and --fill-in-the-blanks--, were less than impressed with the Recording they were getting. And a new phrase was born... "Track on a Neve, Mix on an SSL" (You could extend that to: track on an API, Trident, Harrison, MCI, Tube console, then mix on an SSL.) Basically, for all the praise of SSL for it's unprecedented neutrality and control, it turned out that all that flawed equipment they had been using Added something that they wanted back (this should all sound familiar to anyone with a folder full of Analog emulation plugins). So what emerged (oversimplified) was two-fold: either a split between tracking in a Recording Studio and mixing in a dedicated Mixing facility (some with no live rooms attached), rather than doing both at the same place; or if a Commercial Studio did "upgrade the console to an SSL", the also cannibalized thier old consoles and had thier Engineers "rack-em-up" and build rolling Racks or Side-Car mixers that could be patched into the Line-Inputs on the SSL and tracked through instead. Two stars were born that are still with us in Real form from the actual original companies (BOTH you just said you own), and in countless Hardware and Software emulations: the Neve 1073 and API 312. Rupert Neve in addition to building some of the greatest studio consoles of all time, also built mixers for the Broadcast marked, that used many of the same designs but in much smaller packages. The Neve BCM-10 became the much sought after almost definition of a "Side-Car" mixer sitting next to an SSL. And API had already developed a couple of modular systems that didn't require taking the whole channel strip out of the board, but individual modules: a single Preamp, EQ, Comp could be swapped in and out of thier consoles either for easy maintenance (the main purpose) or for creative variations. Freelance Producers convinced API to make a portable box like DBX already had, that would allow them to take thier favorite modules, and chains, to any studio they happened to be working in. The Lunch-Box was born, and with it the rush for ever manufacturer of 19-inch rack gear to make 500-series module versions. So, sorry for the drawn out nostalgic digression, but I wanted to agree with your analysis, but push your time-line back from the early 2000 to the 90s and late 80s.
This is super accurate and amazing! I started audio in the late 90s and got an internship at a commercial facility in the early/mid 2000s. they had a neve in the tracking room and an ssl 9000j in the mixing room. Several other studios I’ve been to would have a similar kinda setup. I never understood the whole ssl thing until i got the SSL 9000J channel strip by Plugin alliance. That thing is super transparent but also really glues things together. Early on I LOVED the flexibility of SSL too. It came with dynamics and great parametric EQ with way more bands than a Neve or API. I was not a HUGE fan of the EQ though other than a few things on drums for example. It always felt too aggressive and put on its own sound. These days I mix as I track if you will. Adding a bit of compression and EQ on the way in, which based on what i know about pro studios is how they do things and the mixing phase is more about getting all these amazing sounds to glue together nicely along with creative FX stuff.
@@colindayo I’ll assume that’s: ‘A PAIR of 1073s from TONY Larking Audio’ ? If so I’m jealous, and sorry for your loss. I never got to hear His 1073s, (wait were they TLA remakes or racked NEVEs?) I’m pretty sure that he, and his head engineer (who’s name I can’t recall) left Neve to start TL Audio. And got started building Neve Preamps like yours. My first ‘real’ preamp in 1996 was a TL Audio PA2…that I still have! I loved it so much that I went on to acquire a TL Audio C1 (probably their most famous ‘best kept secret’). It’s a Stereo/Dual-channel Tube Compressor with 2 more Mic Pres in front. Then I picked up a TL Audio V1, an 8-channel 2U box with no controls on the front other than Power. On the back are just 8-ins and 8-outs. Inside however is 8 high-voltage Valve/Tube stages that when you send your signals through, they come out sweeter. Gain stage to taste. (I also got the 2U passive Switcher that allows Inserting and routing the Valves during tracking and again during mixing. Interesting piece.) I also picked up a later Indigo Series TL Audio 2020? I think. That’s essentially a 1U version of the C1 without the Mic Pres. Sounds slightly different, still amazing, but is years newer and has different tubes inside. Then on my quest to find a TL Audio EQ1 to complete my set, I accidentally found the most incredible and rare piece in my collection. A TL Audio M1 8. An 8-channel sidecar Mixer, each with a Preamp and a 4-band EQ, into a Stereo Bus. ALL TUBE! Each channel passes through 4 valve stages, then another pair on the master bus. There are 18 12AX7s on the back of this thing. In the 90s and 2000s TL Audio made a lot of noise with their Modern Tube designs that for many culminated in their full 32-channel VTC Console. That desk was used on a Number of hit records over the decades and is still highly sought after. To my understanding though, the development of it basically broke the company. My Console however is like the ‘concept car’ version that was only released in a small batch (don’t know how many). They made a number of production models afterwards, but their signal paths were simplified in order to add more features and still hit a price point. So the M1s and M3s you’ll find on Google are ‘tube trackers’ , still amazing, and include channel faders & auxes that mine lacks, but their not the same inside. And it’s all still safe n sound 100 yards from me begging to be powered up and put to use!
@@G_handle I recall TL Audio (hope i got this right) wanting to build big tube mixer without solid state components in the signal path. Of course it didn't happen because of price, heat, weight, etc. Their VTC Console is very similar to C1 with SSM2017 input followed by ECC83 on HT of 250V, so it is a hybrid design. Most other run tubes at 48V ruining the sound with distortion and other problems. TL Audio rack gear got attacks on forums like Gearslutz although that wasn't a problem because satisfied users soon silenced them by telling about the sound. One thing that sticks out are a bit hard to get pots, they were using cheap ones costing 1-2eur today, buying from them was expensive. The owner said their biggest problem were sales in USA because they couldn't sell directly, meaning gear on the biggest market in the world costed much more than in Europe. p.s.: did you ever try Langeving AM-5116b, D.Fearn VT1 or RCA preamp he based VT1 on? Each belong to one side of the spectrum, meaning VT1 is classic single ended (cap coupled), AM class A push pull. Various revisions tested blew me away, very few others sound as good. Most of them are single ended for some reason...
B) As to the premise of this video, if your basic answer is: Yes, but other things matter more. Then I totally agree. However, Mic Preamps absolutely do matter, which is why I wrote the previous dissertation. (As does everything in the signal chain between the source and the record button.) The Same microphone in Ten different Preamps is Ten different Microphones. And ironically, just yesterday I watched another Sweetwater endorsed TH-cam who was shooting out Exactly This: A year ago he amassed a desk full of Warm Audio 1073 19-inch clones, enough to mic his full drum kit. This year he installed an actual Trident 68 console, obviously with mic Preamps on every channel. So in this video, he Splits the signals from each mic 1-for-1 into both sets of Preamps and presents to you the difference. It ain't subtle. th-cam.com/video/ckGYT2a2Tvc/w-d-xo.html
Nice! Yeah warm audio are pretty awful, though i found their neve 1073 clone to be their best piece of gear, but overall it’s cheap knock offs that don’t sound great. I don’t ever recommend them. Stam audio is much better for cheap clones that sound good. Gonna check out that video!
Thanks for linking that video. It was an interesting watch. I think one thing to note, and he even mentions it, is that he was driving the warm preamps harder. Even before he mentioned that I was thinking the warms sounded like they were being driven harder. I don't have any hardware, but I've used plugins that emulate neve preamps and I've noticed it's really easy to drive them too hard. On drums they tend to go from fairly transparent to compressed with no transients really quickly. I think that's why the tridents sounded more punchy. It would be interesting to see a shootout of preamps with clean settings. I bet the difference is much more subtle.
@@weeschwee Agreed. First, I think the timing of this video and that is ironically perfect. I also watched him setting up and thought, you can't really hit preamps or anything else at identical levels thinking you're getting apples-for-apples. Each different piece responds to gainstaging differently. That test does tell you Something useful, but there are more useful tests. To begin with, b.i.t.d. you would test each piece in your arsenal to find: A) where's the noise floor B) how high can you go with No distortion (so the cleanest setting) C) at what point do you push it and the distortion is unacceptable D) between maximum clean and too much distortion, that's your usable range E) now where in there does this particular signal sound the best, that's the infamous "Sweet Spot". Neve 1073s, API 312s, and every other Preamp is going to have different answers to the above questions. A couple more thoughts: 1) Most people don't have access to A/B test a full set of Preamps like this. And this is the best way. Because the differences Accumulate! One Pre vs another Will tell you something, but one full Console worth of Preamps across many channels, vs another Console or Rack full of Preamps, that's where you'll see the BIG difference the minute differences make. Hence producers bringing or renting thier own favorite Lunchboxes, Racks, or Sidecars during the tracking stage. 2) So for this guy, since he luckily owns both and can presumably take his time testing, tweaking, and tracking his own drums. He should keep those splits setup, but rather than Match settings between both sets, find the Best settings for each, then Track Both regularly. You could think of it like Micing a Cabinet, but also tracking a D.I. Then in the mix, you could either use whichever one fits the mix better, or blend between the two. Or use one for choruses and then other for verses. Or use one Dry and send the other to the Reverbs, or Crush. Either way... Options.
I had privilege of using and comparing most high quality vintage and many new preamps, beside some of their copies. It makes me wonder why do API/Neve come up so often when there are other solid state options sounding as good or better than this two. Tube preamps weren't mentioned despite being simply great for many things like vocals, bass, drums too, acoustic instr., etc. I noticed they tend to make mid priced mics sound better as if they were expensive mics.. Cost can be issue with these, although some out of fashion models like Peavey cost very little while sounding great with replacement of output transformers, diy by technicians servicing gear can also be cheap beside having custom controls or sound shaped for the user. Companies like Warm Audio are using cheapest materials possible, transformers tend to be ok if present but they will certainly not function properly longer than 10 years or so. I'm quite impressed by the sound and quality of Coil Audio, price of their modules is low enough it might be worth finding someone who will rack and power them...
@@Signal_Glow A) I was unaware of Coil, so I'm checking those out now. B) I very much agree about the obsession with SSL, API, Neve. To help answer why, it isn't just the preamps, it's the Consoles this Pres were in. Commercial Studios basically Had to have those three food groups, because those were the 3 main console companies. If you had one Console, you better have the other two's Preamps (and EQs, and Channel Comps, and Bus Compressors). So studios would often likely have an SSL desk with a pair or rack of 1073s and/or 312s, or sidecar consoles. So all the basic options. I also agree that Tube Mic Pres are often infinitely more useful. C) Just this morning I responded to another comment on this same video about my TL Audio tube obsession. Check my other comment that starts wit "Barry!" D) To throw more light on your question, I just spent last week at NAMM. If it wasn't already clear, there really is an Old School / New School divide within the industry. Many of these new schoolers will never go beyond the preamps in an interface. They're buying cardboard boxes with pretty graphics on the outside, then filming themselves opening the box. The idea that they would solder up an XLR cable, let alone a Patchbay, swap out Tubes or Transformers, or re-cap a Channelstrip....I don't see that happening.
It's also SUPER important to realize you have to KNOW what you're doing, that comes with experience. Once you do, you will know what really matters and what doesnt.
The whole point of audio engineering to begin with is that Everything is subtle, but combined it becomes a huge factor in the outcome. So anything that adds a subtle improvement, go for it. Better mic, better pre amp, better EQ, better compressor, better A/D converter, better monitors, the tiny little clean ups on tracks, treat every song like the biggest song of your life, all little things will equal big results.
I agree with the over arching sentiment and believe it’s important not to believe gear will be the answer to bad recordings. But great mixes in the box require a much higher skill level and experience. Once i upgraded my mic to the akg 414 and then added the ssl 500 preamp, mixing is so much easier and faster as the vocals come out needing very little plugin processing and i can get to my desired sound with little work. Analogue gear is very graceful that its hard to overdue it on processing as well. Will the end user care? nope, but in the pursuit of being a master at the craft like u said all these things compound to help make your next masterpiece something that you and the fans enjoy.
No mention of Tube Mic Preamps… good ones are not cheap but if you get one with several transformer options and drive controls it’s like turning every mic in your locker into a tube mic. Amazing the versatility, and assuming folks already have a couple decent mics, a good Tube Pre will dramatically expand the sonic pallet… it’s more than just a little change! (Not disagreeing that everything in the signal chain matters… but things you do in the analog domain before converters can drastically change the final sound in ways it’s difficult to replicate once in the box.)
Hey Barry, this is a very good one. In the early 1990's I purchased a Neumann U87 from a farmer who found it in his deceased son's possessions. He offered it to me for $400. The farmer wanted to to go to a good home and he was friends with my parents and knew me through them. I told him it was worth a lot more than $400 but he insisted. Still had the nice wood box that they sell with and the shock mount. I jumped on it a bought it. It didn't work in the shape it was in so I sent it to Neumann and had it repaired for an additional $350. It sounded good through my Allen & Heath GL3000, Yamaha 01V96 and my Focusrite Scarlett 4i4. Then last year I purchased an RME Fireface UCX II and that is when you could hear just how good the mic Neumann sounded. Several people have recorded through it and it is a prefect representation of their voice. For me and my recording, I use it through a SSL Alpha Channel to give it a bit more warmth and to take away the thinness in my voice. Doing things in the right order make a world of difference when you get to the end. As I always say it is better to start at the start and move to the end rather than start in the middle and not know which way to go. Enjoyed the video as always and one of us still owes the other a beer and some conversation down at Captain Tony's in Key West. Since I'm coming from Illinois, you are going to have to buy the beer. Have a great one!!
Niice shirt. All I know is if using an external pre-amp then make sure you can bypass the internal pre-amps in your audio interface; otherwise, you’ll be getting the sound of the internal pre-amp too and maybe more of it!
Put a SM57 into a focusrite RED 7 that 57 will sound very different - that being said it does depend on a lot other factors as mentioned in the video. Great work Barry!
I recommend the apogee interface like a quartet, duet or symphony desktop. The first two on the used market are affordable. I paid 1500 on the quartet brand new but used they are like 500. The internal preamps sound fantastic. They compete with neve 1073. I owned the bae 1073 and sold it when I realized my internal pres were just as good.
I feel that as a singer a pre-amp does make a significant difference and the right one can make you feel more confident in your singing, along with the right compressor and EQ. BTW, I see you have a couple of SSL UF8s, would really appreciate a review of it for recording at home studio, and whether it would significantly improve workflow over something like a faderport with single fader.
Hi, I've been mixing along time now. And I found a big difference when I went tested it I did a test.. I recorded vocals, bass & guitar through an Audient I'd 22. And then I went through my new Neve 1073 mic pre right through the converters of the Audient id22. By-passing the Audient mic pre. The Neve added so much more weight to the sound and natural saturation. And it's accumulative. So when I listened back to all the tracks from the Audient id22 mic pre and compared to all the tracks through the Neve. The overall sound was so much bigger, with that nice low-end. It was clearly a big difference. To my ears. I've been in the music business for over 40yrs. I realize a beginner and someone fairly new may not hear a major difference. But those with a trained ears will notice a big difference. And converters make a big difference. I compared my Aurora N TB 32 to the Audient converter and the MOTU 16A Converters. And you can hear the separation and air around the sound as I describe it.. My biggest thing is we're mixing songs. So it's deceiving to just listen to one track. If you have one track with a nice mic pre that can be driven into beautiful saturation and really nice conversion.. And you compare 32 tracks with an Audient id22 and 32 tracks with Neve Pres and Aurora N conversion. It's a very big difference. This is from my experience, doing these tests.. Love your channel...🙂👍👍👍
I think preamps make a small difference to condenser mics but a big difference to dynamics/passive ribbons when using them on lower level sources. 60dB of gain for my SM7B on my previous interface (Antelope Discrete 8) was very hissy and near unusable for quieter vocalists and regular speech. Maxed out 70dB of gain on my Neve 88RLB has a much quieter noise floor which makes my SM7B more usable and easier to do post processing to. Fethead is no longer required.
This has been my experience too! I think the big name/higher dollar preamps also do inject a nuanced character as well and to me at least that is more easily discerned on dynamic microphones vs. condenser s. Perhaps it is a combination of the preamp circuit design/topology, the larger amount of gain needed and how the preamp input impedance loads the microphone output.
I have a variety of preamps - internal and external. (Avalon Design, Audient, SSL, Neumann etc). It is enjoyable to have a variety but all of the preamps I have work well. I agree with you that it is not necessary to have other preamps if the basic preamps are good quality.
I have done null test between NEVE and API with spilt signals so it was the same performance. It almost completely nulls. Do what you want with that information.
When I was assisting, the engineer hired a bunch of Massenburg GML 8300 mic pre-amps to record drums. They are damn expensive but you can hear the quality, the transient response was night and day over anyhting I'd heard till then.
The best thing you said is that these are incremental things that add up to the finished product. No magic bullet, just lots of small things that add up to the whole.
You are 100% correct! Back in the late 90's, I used to make my recordings using the internal preamps from my Mackie 32-8 bus mixer. It worked just fine. The end user didn't listen for API mojo. They wanted a clean vocal sound, and that's exactly what they got. In fact, I would be hard pressed if anyone outside of being in the room while tracking vocal is going to reject the sound because a Neve was not used. Does the Neve make a difference? You bet it does. Currently, I'm using the Manley reference mic with a Manley Voxbox as a vocal chain. I could as easily plug into the mackie 32-8, and with good compression and EQ, I can obtain a really good sound as well. The noise specs may not be as good as the Neve preamps, but when you have blazing guitars and loud drums and you are cutting hard rock, that noise gets masked and you will never hear it. I worked the studios of the late 70's to early 80's, and remember when 30IPS started to be the tape speed of choice. Yes, 15IPS had a bit more tape hiss, but the sound was great. Engineers started using 30IPS for everything, including loud and heavy rock. At the end of the day, you couldn't hear the tape hiss of 15IPS. Same allies with mic preamps as far as I'm concerned. Thanks for this great video.
I have been using my Behringer T1 Tube Condenser microphone for 25 years. It was quite noisy until I put a 7025EH to it, which sounds like a $1000 microphone since then.
I was looking into getting a pair of high end channel strips until I decided to just stay all in the box. I don’t have experience of real Neve / API preamps but with my UA Apollo and Luna etc. it sounds pretty decent to me! I remember how my recordings sounded back in the mid-2000s with my old Digi 002 and this sounds so much better. Having said that, as a bass player I have a number of different bass preamps in my home studio. 😂
Just found your channel... Great advice Barry. The acceleration of home recording with digital exploded in the 1990's, but AD/DA conversion and built-in mic pre-amps to those units lacked the ability to even service exceptional mics. It was in that period that specialized converters emerged to help resolve, and external mic pre-amps definitely had a significant quality improvement from what was stock on those interfaces/recording devices. I recall the huge difference a two channel $1,500 mic preamp unit made with any decent mic back then. That same tube mic pre-amp that I still have now has a much reduced impact on mic performance today, since the level of conversion, pre-amp quality, and ITB plugins/adjustments are so far advanced now. Worrying about these external components in the signal chain has been massively reduced with the quality of mic pre's and conversion in interfaces today, add to that the quality of mics available at prices unheard of back then as well. I still have and use that external tube Demeter mic pre (and tube compressor), but only because I have them, for flavor (which could be my false bias). New setups with mid to high end interfaces wouldn't really be lacking without them.
I think that if you have a low budget the best inversion you can do is in a very good audio interface and a good microphone before a external mic Pre Amp
I not agree with the last replies. I was in a session , we tried an AKG C12, Neumann U47 with a world class pre I can’t remember it’s name. Finally we decided to use the Neumann. We weren’t really joyful with the vocal tone. At the mix stage I decided to give a try and re record the voice with my trusty Rode NT1 and ART tubepac mic pre. It was absolutely amazing. I don’t say that the other original track was bad, what I mean is for this particular female singer this combination fitted better in the song. Lord is my witness, hope your not atheist !! Haha
@@mrflynn01 It's not the gear it's the ear and it always will be listening to that and what you said is the reason bad mixing choices and horrible songs get created.
Excellent topic and great synopsis Barry. I really appreciate that you talked about every piece in the chain to explain your point about mic preamps. +1 on RME interfaces. Along with excellent conversion, outstanding mic pres, you get the best drivers and support in the industry. Been a customer for over 20 years and my first PCI card from them still works and sounds great. I've since upgraded to the latest Babyface and UCXII. Both fantastic interfaces.
Thanks for the historical perspective. One clarification: Paul Wolff introduced the API Lunchbox shortly after he bought the company's assets in 1985, and by the late '80s they were popular in studios and on the road loaded with API 512, 550, and 560 modules. Other manufacturers adopted the format much later.
I asked Julian why would anyone spend a lot of money for an external preamp, and what else is there to measure, his answer is simply "I really don't know". There is basically nothing scientific to measure other than saturation, and even that is very low at minus 80db with many great pieces of gear. Basically, people are delusional most of the time.
In my experience, the high quality preamp shines when using low output dynamic mics. The difference in noise level alone can be dramatic. Condenser mics with higher outputs ask a lot less of the preamp.
Have all kinds of preamps from Neve, API, UA, tube, transformer balanced etc. I think for as much as everyone (including myself) hype up the importance of preamp sonics. I don't think most folks on here (including myself) could tell you the difference on a source in a blind listening test with a busy mix.
i would have thought you would be over here going to NAMM 2023? Il'l let you know what's NEW @ Universal Audio & what they've done :) I have a $4K NEVE ( "SHELFORD CHANNEL" ) ...I use it but I've done comparison & still find myself using UA "UNISEN" ? Running a TELEFUNKEN TF29 Cond. Mic ( for me )
I used UAD Unison preamps for six years. I then recorded some vocals at a professional studio. I noticed the vocals recorded at the professional studio sounded better than the vocals I recorded with UAD Unison preamps. After 5-6 months of research, I purchased the Neve Shelford Channel. Now my vocals sound just as good as the vocals I recorded at the professional studio. A few weeks ago, I recorded some vocals with UAD Unison. No comparison to the Shelford Channel.
The industry goes through periods of innovating new products, then periods of recreating vintage products. I've got a TLA stereo preamp compressor, from the 90s. It's not a clone of any vintage gear, it's its own thing, and it sounds fantastic. People buy vintage clones for the same reason they buy signature guitars: if they get the same kit, they can pretend to be their hero.
IMO, having owned nearly every boutique preamp available, and I have found preamp differences to be about tonal nuance, transient response, noise floor, and distortion character. Pretty much ALL preamps are relatively neutral /linear/ clean, until they pushed /cranked/turned up.
30 years ago, an audio engineer told me when I was first starting, "the difference between mid cost gear and high end $4000+ gear is only subtle, the steps up in price are huge compared to the ever decreasing percentages of "better" you gain. I'd also add that these days, the general huge rise in quality across the board and the extremely low ROI most mix engineers make compared to the "good ol' days" is so low and the destruction of the end quality by converting to MP3 and watnot, makes it a silly waste of money to invest in very much high end gear. The secret, in the end, is to spend your money wisely.
For my setup (small mobile recording rig) I started seeing a difference in my recordings with these 3 factors: better mics, better pres, better recording technique. I spend less time mixing getting to the sound I want now that I have nice tools to get me there earlier in the process. I select certain pres for their sonic characteristics (EQ bump, natural compression, saturation or clean and transparent), mics and technique to get me as close as possible to the finished sound I want.
The mic preamps on these newer interfaces really does close the gap a lot like the unison preamps from UA. I have Golden Age, Warm Audio, and I remember having a first gen Mbox. Things have definitely changed. I'm stuck right now with an Apollo Twin using the unison with a Neumann TLM 102 and the Slate Digital mic with the software preamp and mic emulation. I almost always have decapitator after for more grit as well. I rarely grab my Shure SM7B, but I got rid of my cloudlifter with the Apollo. I don't want to invest anymore into my apollo/UA preamps and still have the Golden Age and Warm Audio outboards which may indeed find a home with a new Babyface. Still, it's all still better than that MBox or whatever it was that came before.
I would like to say, I’ve owned the bae 1073 dmp twice. They sounded pretty good but then realized my apogee quartet internal preamps where just as good. I recommend the apogee preamps on the quartet. They go up 75 db of gain. The bae does 80 db of gain. I use 40-50 db of gain which is plenty. Also, I recommend a good digital compressor. The cl1b from soft tube sounds great with light compression.
I’m recording my voice with a EV RE20 through a cloudlifter into a focusrite 18i20 I’m wondering what the best place to spend around 2-3k would be from here ~ I don’t want to change the microphone! I’m super happy with that. Happy for anyone to share their thoughts/ suggestions 😊
Only time I ever bought one was for a ribbon mic. I wasn't getting it for a better quality of tone, but solely because I was told that I needed that extra gain to get a decently strong signal. And for that purpose, I'd say yeah it was useful for that. Ribbon mics are quiet as hell. The problem is that even the best mic preamp is still gonna add some of its own noise to the signal. Like you said, it mattered back in the day when interface preamps were crap, but nowadays I don't get much benefit from it. I've found myself not using the preamp entirely out of laziness and not seeing an appreciable difference. The clean signal I get is less fatty, but after applying all the filters and EQ it's basically identical.
I just got my first outboard gear. A BAE 1073MP its so good. Even makes it inspiring to play DI which was something I didn't get out of my Focusrite 18i20. I like it so much I'm currently working on a Rock History video of the Neve 1073 and consoles
@@g_and_kikos_studio you're welcome. I have that one as well and it will go to my grave with me so I know exactly what you experiencing lol. I have run the same material through it and the plugin version and there is absolutely no comparison.
@@g_and_kikos_studio You can't go wrong with that move at all. The funny thing is the BAE version is the clone of the Neve, but the former is typically the most sought after. BAE makes killer gear and are well worth their price. They sound great on pretty much everything and the harder you drive it the better it sounds especially on midrange and bass. By accident I recorded a bass part too hot and it added a bit of distortion BUUUT fitted the song and mix so well I refused to retake it and instead wrote down the settings. It worked so well that the mix basically mixed itself and there was not much work to do afterwards and that's the point at least in my humble opinion. Decent mics matched with great mic preamps takes you out of incessant plugins arms race, chasing the latest trends, wasting money on essentially the same plugin when that time could be spent creating. Plugins have a place in a hybrid system and I use them, but they should be the supplement and not the core basis. If nothing else as engineer advised me, playing in the box has its place but analog on the incoming signal (mic pres) makes a universe of difference. He said invest on good mic pres and don't go cheap, but everything else it's fine to go budget/economical.
Great observations, it always starts with the source, than the mic, position of the mic , pre amp , often i hear about great guitar pickups but nobody talks about the wood and balance of the instruments , its all about the source
Agree 100%. Spent the weekend recording various instruments into several of the preamps I own (including those in my audio interface, a Tascam 16x08) and doing comparisons. The difference, if any (I certainly couldn't tell), is negligible. It's the combination of it all that, as Mr. Johns says, makes the difference.
awesome insights as usual. I'm using a soundcraft Ui24 as a sound card, and love the studer designed mic preamps, and maybe a couple of hardware compressors will be the way to go now for that hybrid thing...well we'll see!great job! thanks for all the vídeos you put out!✌️😎
for me i just need more mic inputs, so i got 4 channel mic pre from warm audio. im young don't have too much money and was using a crappy mixer......the difference is enormous between that and the external preamps. i would also argue from experience that good external preamps are much better than a cheaper audio interface and will make a big difference, ESPECIALLY if your adding large amounts of gain. I have an arturia 16rig interface those mic pre amps are good but still slightly lacking from the warm audio. for context im talking sm57,58,sm7b, and a blue condenser mic.
Really great talk. Informative points made well and clearly, which make some real sense. I can agree, based on my own experiences. Thank you for sharing.
I think a good channel strip will make more of a difference (obviously at a higher cost) due to the relation between the manufacturer's Pre, EQ and Compressor, which are designed to sound good together. But yes, you need decent mics first.
For mic pre's you need to reach the bottom tier to make a difference. Once above that its incremental to a point. BUT there are some that just shine above when used on everything. I bought a A-Designs 500 Pacifica $1000 years ago by a recommendation from a top studio guy in LA and wow that thing shines on everything. There are surgical mic pre's that shine on one or a few things then there are ones that make everything sound good. But I agree with what Barry is saying. There is only so much money you can throw at something where its not going to make a difference.
Incremental improvements are the key thing. I have tried budget items and I have purchased some SSL gear. Each thing I have, I took the time to focus on two things: Making the left and right channel the best I can. I got SM57s, 58s, some Blue mics, some good cables, an interface like M-Audio AIR that sounds really well (also had a Tascam 24, Mackie, Peavey... they're Preamps ruined my sound). I then saved up for SSL channel strips on sale, then a GCOMP, then and Ultraviolet. That helped me earn the money to get more and more. and a great Soundcraft UI24R. Same mics, more cables, boom stands, more Blue mics 57s and 58s. I even bought some JBL Eon715s, then a snake, just by trying to make the left and right channel sound the best I can. The key was to do the best with a stereo setup. push my skills and lower a cost for someone to come track, REINVEST into the recording. and in one year, I have been able to enjoy it. I run sound too for shows. BUT, I do not know what to do next. Advice?
I agree, that record production is incremental. But, we're often at the mercy of our weakest link whether it's talent or gear related. If you have a top shelf mic that cost many thousands, and hear what the differences are running it through prosumer amps versus a BAE, Neve, API etc...the differences will be audible. Whether one likes those differences or not is purely subjective.
Great micpres do make a difference. Right now I’m re/amping some rap tracks through my ISA Two, Apollo SF quad and Logic 10.4 on my PC I have a SSL2. Mic AKG C414
Jerry I never said they don’t make a difference, the point was that and that alone will not transform you recordings. Pairing with a great mic is very important to make the preamp truly shine.
great stuff Barry, just out of curiosity, I can see in the backgroud you own a Heritage Audio HA73EQ, how do you compare it to the Warm Audio WA73EQ? Build and sound quality wise? Cannot decide which one to buy and please don't say it doesn't matter. It does and I care haha, thank you
I have a 3rd gen Scarlett interface and a 90’s 1U, ART dual MP and a TubePac (pre and comp) that just seemed to survive 25 years of moving. I hooked up the ART’s again to have some more phantom power and to use the TubePac as a Bass pre/DI. I’ve never expected a whole lot out of them. I recently got a Warm WA12 (API style) to try out and found when I was doing testing using a Marshall rock, guitar tone, between the ART’s and the Warm the difference was too negligible to justify keeping the Warm. I bet I could hardly get $50/60 for the ART’s. The WA12 had the slightest bit more low end but I found there was just no moment of aha! That is better. I was getting comparison fatigue going back and forth trying to get that moment and it just never happened. I definitely tried settings where they were pushing hard and the ART just sounded fine. I’m definitely going to pivot to looking at compressors, actually have a FMR RNC inbound at the moment. I’m older and as this a fun hobby (professional work long behind me), I like knobs, hardware aesthetics. So I still wouldn’t say no to a fun looking Neve clone etc but certainly not feeling they’re necessary. I agree I get more out of mic choice and placement, speaker choice, guitar and EQ on the amp. I actually liked the ART over the Scarlett.
no but they had great mic preamps in the studio console...you got a Harrison, a Calrec,an API, a MCI, a Neve or an SSL you don't n need external mic preamps indeed...But today most people don't use those desks anymore so having a solid stereo preamp is a must in my opinion.
So glad I found your channel!! I love the way you explain your thoughts and opinions. This vid was spot on about the preamps not making a huge difference. I totally agree. Keep making great content!! Much ❤️ Barry!!
Excellent and timely talk Barry. Always love your perspective. I am at the edge of this rabbit hole of 'wanting' to upgrade from prosumer stuff to more 'pro' and learning a lot. I have a couple decent higher-end mic's but not much beyond - Sennheiser 441, AKG 414 B/ULS. I am beginning to have this feeling that my approach to home recording needs to have more of the 'proximity' effect of instruments in my recordings. In other words - more of a sense of authentic 3D space. It seems easy to get a good direct sound and pepper with phenomenal digital ambiance, but my favorite recordings have a sense of position/depth. To me, this smacks of room and mic placement, and probably a whole different set of mics.
It's so funny how I tell everyone exactly what you said about producing music back in the seventies and eighties that nobody used external preamps and no one ever believes me they just cannot even conceive of not having all of this external gear . you better listen to us old guys we know we're talking about😊
This is a superb video Barry, really informative and honest. It put my desires for a sweet preamp into perspective. Turns out a microphone upgrade or two will be more impactful for me now. Have you made any videos on microphone tonality and how to choose the right mic for the right situation?
Would be curious to hear your thoughts on mic quality across different price ranges. You mentioned $300 LDC's here and then $4000 but there's a huge gap between those. I see you got several WA products on your desk, what do you think of their higher end mics and other stuff that is a bit more economical? How do you feel they compare to the much more expensive clones?
Just my opinion, but if you have a good mic going into a good interface, you're pretty much there. Interfaces have preamps. And adding another preamp will introduce more color, but the mic and the interface are, I think, more important. I have an Apollo Solo and it came with some fantastic plugins and a few different preamp sims that can give you different character.
I think this was a fair way to characterize preamps, mainly due to potentially false expectations people have. For acoustic instruments and drums, I find good preamps absolutely make a noticeable difference, but I’m not expecting any preamp to make a bad drum sound good. What I do expect is for the sound to have the subtle character of the preamp that all adds up with multiple tracks in a mix. Also, with good outboard gear in general you’re getting better sound to tape rather than having to do more mixing to get the tone you want.
How much a mic preamp will improve your music is going to depend on what you’re currently using and what you’re upgrading to. If you go a Focusrite Scarlet to a Fearn VT-2, you’re going to hear a significant difference. If you go from a Focusrite Scarlet to a Warm WA-12, it’s not going to be so significant. I do agree that the microphone is the more significant purchase. But once you have your microphone …the one that really works for you… then finding a complimentary preamp is a worthy search. My first two quality preamps were the John Hardy M-2 and the Demeter VTMP-2c. Both were significant upgrades from the Digi 003 preamps I had at the time. The Hardy is clean and can be pushed hard without noise becoming an issue. The Demeter is magic on fet mics. My main vocal mic at the time I bought the Demeter was a Blue Kiwi. The Demeter brings that mic to whole other level. I’ve loaned it to two friends with studios and they were both blown away by it. Eventually, I bought a Flea 47 and I didn’t love the Demeter or the Hardy on that mic and I added a Hendy Da Vinci and a Sebatron Axis 200vu. Both are outstanding preamps and compliment my Flea very well. I thought I was done with preamps there but then API released the 312 500 unit …and to my ears, nothing Is better on strummed acoustic than that preamp, so I added a pair to my 500 chassis. I’m pretty well covered for preamps now. They all add something but like I said, it depends where you and where the preamp lets you land.
Hey man, this video is fire you just spoke the truth because I’ve been recording music for over 15 years and lately I was using the Avalon 737 plug-in and after that I also went out and purchased the real Avalon 737 hardware and there’s really not a big difference
Barry , really like your honesty and genuine content about audio . Well could u make a video on a subject we all desire to hear abt a professional recording set up in a bedroom studio
@@BarryJohns i have a rme babyface pro fs , i was wondering to get a better signal chain for my mix bus processing using outboard gear via adat , could u suggest some options for a significant improvement on audio processing or u want me to upgrade to a higher end version of rme to see that change
Cool video!! I'm by no means an expert but I would also point a beginner to maybe do room treatment or a good pair of monitors aside from investing in some good mics.
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Great advice. I've been a pro since 1985, started on Ameks, then moved on to Neves and SSLs. I think 99% of mic preamp fetishism is placebo. My spending priorities are monitoring, microphones, compression and EQ, in that order. Monitoring first, because if you can't trust what you're hearing, everything else is built on sand.
Good call.
The more important thing than spending on monitors is listening on the same monitors for a long time every type of music so yor ears get use to the sound and you can reference, compare to the other songs of what you're doing with your stuff, it doesn't matter on what you're listening if the speakers are pro level monitors. You can have the best monitors on earth but if your ears are not use to it, you'll make garbage ...
@@b.hornetiii.6771 Quality comment
I'll say this, and I hope anyone who is just starting out hears this because I wish someone had told me this when I started; start making music. Plain and simple. If you're on a budget and all you can afford is $15 mics, and stock preamps from a used interface, then do it. Don't let the idea that you NEED this stuff prevent you from making music.
I've been passionate about recording my whole life, especially drums, and in order to do that you need A LOT of equipment. I just didn't do it for so long because I didn't want to buy less expensive gear. Even though I could have got so much experience and learned so much at younger age had I just bought what I could afford at the time. So the most important thing, is make music, get experience, just start doing it.
That being said, there's a few ways to look at signal flow. From the start and from the end. From the start, your signal is never going to improve as it goes through your gear. So if you have a bad sounding microphone, the preamp isn't going to fix it, in fact it'll probably accent the mic's short comings. If you have a bad mic and bad preamp, and a great compressor, that compressor is going to accent the flaws in the two because as you go down the signal chain each piece has a more dramatic effect on the signal the piece before it.
So microphones are without a doubt the most important part of the equation, I couldn't agree more. This is a great video full of great information, thanks for posting it.
This is perfect advice.
I find the comment take your music to the next level as laughable, the only thing that takes your music to the next level is great music, which today = crap
Great advice! It goes further up the chain too. Even the best microphone can't make a poor instrument or performance sound good. And even the best instrument or singer can't make a crappy room sound good. And so on.
@@WyattBrown377 Very true. Very very true.
Man amen to that! I stopped making music 10 years ago and finally starting recording again and using a mic preamp and it added so much warmth and presence to my vocals as well as making them blend more with the song. Less work adding efx and compression after also 👍🏼
I’ve been engineering for over 45 years. My home recording rig is simple. I consentrate on GIRATS. Get it right at the source. That’s way before the preamp. Labamba is a great example of that. The recording holds up today as well as it did the first time it was played on the radio. Why, GIRATES! Ritchie Valens was the original source. He lived that song. Lightning in a bottle. You want to take things to the next level? Look in the mirror. Weather your the artist , the producer, or the engineer. Take to the next level. Before you go out and spend a wad on a new pre. Buy the uad 476p. Put your existing tracks. Through it. Use the compressor and the 4k button if that process takes your performance to a new level get the preamp. Sell the uad interface. If the tracks you put the tracks through sound less than desired. GIRATS. Go back and record it again. You can do more with correct mic placement than anything. Mick Jagger’s voice was always recorded with an SM 57. A 99 dollar mic. Placed in the right place by an engineer who knew great mic placement. I spent years in the early days recording on a teac 3040 four track two sm57’s . I was forced to learn good miking techniques to achieve good recordings. I learned to get a better performance out of the artist I was recording. This is a small part of my recording journey. I shared it with you for a reason. You will never need that pre until you GIRATS first. GIRATS first pre afterwards. Enjoy the journey …
Good sentiment, but it’s a bit over-simplistic. Practiced or not, we all still need to curate our selection of equipment so that we aren’t limiting our sound. With your advice we all need to be as talented as some of the greats and that’s often not achievable or desirable
@@SD-cm6ifnot over simplistic or not. The last couple of days I was recording a nee grand piano and a new Martin Guitar. They sounded good because of the artist playing them. If I played them it wouldn’t matter. A great piano wouldn’t make me a pianist. Any new equipment these days is decent. As a sweetwater rep told me several years ago, they don’t sell any junk. There used to be junk on the market but not anymore and basic home level stuff is better than hit records were recorded years ago
Fact check the Jagger bit
I go back & listen to my recordings from the late 90s/early 2000s. They were made with a $50 Samson SM-58 knockoff & stock pres on either a Yamaha MiniDisc 4-track or a MOTU module/PCI card combo. They sound great! Just make music.
So true. I started recording in the middle 80’s with an sm57 and a Tascam 244 Portastudio. Great recordings that I’m still proud of. It’s the players and the song that matter most.
I have been playing since the 60's and recording since the 70's. The most important element in any recording is the performance. PERIOD!! Working hard to be proficient on your instruments of choice and learning to manipulate them in a way that sounds good and fits with the music well, will yield far greater results than every other aspect of the recording process. Microphone choice is second. Mic placement is third in the chain. After that there are varying degrees of returns depending upon the mic placement.
Using close miking techniques are more forgiving of room acoustics so the mic preamp would probably come fourth in the equation and room acoustics would be fifth. When using mic placement that is further from the source room acoustics would inhabit fourth place and mic preamps would come in fifth. Your mileage may vary but that is the general concensus.
The moral of the story is practice your instrument. In the process of practicing it is a good idea to record yourself. That way, when you listen back, you can have a more objective viewpoint for what you need to practice. Practicing is more than just learning what and where the notes are. It has to do with learning how to get the best sound out of your instrument as well. For me, it took me a long time to learn what it was supposed to sound like. Once I figured that out it was just a matter of learning how to capture it. When recording your practice you can learn to do both at once.
I have many great microphones as well as API, Great River, Focusrite, Purple Audio, and RME mic preamps I use to capture different elments. I could do all of my recordings with any one of those and yield excellent results. Having a selection just gives me slight advantages for getting more refined sounds when tracking.
In school we did side by side comparisons with a few mono sources with API 512c, Neve 1073, Daking, Millenia, and SSL preamps and then the Audient console pres. The character on the API and the Neve are amazing. All the outboard pres blew away the audient console pres though. Are they still useable? Yes, and they sound fine and make good recordings. Would I rather plug into one of the outboard pres? Absolutely, especially for the crucial sources, snare, vox, kick. Yeah it’s incremental, but pretty striking when you hear it.
Interesting. I've used all but the Daking, but I've heard them too. I'd argue the Audients are "faster" and cleaner than all but the Millenia. So it depends what you're trying to record. Also, depending on which SSLs you're talking, I think the Audients would regularly beat the SSL 4K pres.
I’m with you. When I got my first external pre (Vintech) my recordings took a huge leap forward. To my ears, quality preamps add weight, depth and shape the sound. For example, those vintechs do something really nice to the transients vs.something more clean. Don’t get me wrong quality transparent pres have their place too. It’s been a few years since Ive used interface pres other than UA but I’ve always found that many of them sound thin and papery
when compared to something more high end especially after having stacked many channels.
Were they all recording the same performance at the same time?
It can't be striking and incremental simultaneously. Sounds like a little confirmation bias going on. You're a perfect example of who he's talking about in the video.
@@superiorjamtracks2189 it can be incremental on singular tracks, depending on the instrument. But in a full mix everything together sounds totally different.
Barry! Great video once again.
A couple of thoughts though:
A) Back in the day, before the DAW claimed world dominance in the Project/Home Studio arena, in the Commercial Studio arena another product Pushed a bunch of OLD consoles (and thier preamps) out of control rooms all over the world. SSL.
There's a hundred reasons why, and regardless of whether or not one likes Solid State Logic, the game is pretty much: Before SSL and After SSL.
Unlike every product I'm about to see at NAMM in 2 hours, the SL 4000E really was the definition of "Game Changer".
However...
Producers and Engineers that had been tracking on Neves and APIs and --fill-in-the-blanks--, were less than impressed with the Recording they were getting. And a new phrase was born...
"Track on a Neve, Mix on an SSL"
(You could extend that to: track on an API, Trident, Harrison, MCI, Tube console, then mix on an SSL.)
Basically, for all the praise of SSL for it's unprecedented neutrality and control, it turned out that all that flawed equipment they had been using Added something that they wanted back (this should all sound familiar to anyone with a folder full of Analog emulation plugins).
So what emerged (oversimplified) was two-fold: either a split between tracking in a Recording Studio and mixing in a dedicated Mixing facility (some with no live rooms attached), rather than doing both at the same place; or if a Commercial Studio did "upgrade the console to an SSL", the also cannibalized thier old consoles and had thier Engineers "rack-em-up" and build rolling Racks or Side-Car mixers that could be patched into the Line-Inputs on the SSL and tracked through instead.
Two stars were born that are still with us in Real form from the actual original companies (BOTH you just said you own), and in countless Hardware and Software emulations: the Neve 1073 and API 312.
Rupert Neve in addition to building some of the greatest studio consoles of all time, also built mixers for the Broadcast marked, that used many of the same designs but in much smaller packages.
The Neve BCM-10 became the much sought after almost definition of a "Side-Car" mixer sitting next to an SSL.
And API had already developed a couple of modular systems that didn't require taking the whole channel strip out of the board, but individual modules: a single Preamp, EQ, Comp could be swapped in and out of thier consoles either for easy maintenance (the main purpose) or for creative variations.
Freelance Producers convinced API to make a portable box like DBX already had, that would allow them to take thier favorite modules, and chains, to any studio they happened to be working in.
The Lunch-Box was born, and with it the rush for ever manufacturer of 19-inch rack gear to make 500-series module versions.
So, sorry for the drawn out nostalgic digression, but I wanted to agree with your analysis, but push your time-line back from the early 2000 to the 90s and late 80s.
Thank you for the detailed history, I learned a lot!
This is super accurate and amazing! I started audio in the late 90s and got an internship at a commercial facility in the early/mid 2000s. they had a neve in the tracking room and an ssl 9000j in the mixing room. Several other studios I’ve been to would have a similar kinda setup. I never understood the whole ssl thing until i got the SSL 9000J channel strip by Plugin alliance. That thing is super transparent but also really glues things together. Early on I LOVED the flexibility of SSL too. It came with dynamics and great parametric EQ with way more bands than a Neve or API. I was not a HUGE fan of the EQ though other than a few things on drums for example. It always felt too aggressive and put on its own sound. These days I mix as I track if you will. Adding a bit of compression and EQ on the way in, which based on what i know about pro studios is how they do things and the mixing phase is more about getting all these amazing sounds to glue together nicely along with creative FX stuff.
Yep. First time I had an external pre was 95. A part of racked up 1073’s from Toby Larking Audio. No I don’t have them now! 😢
@@colindayo I’ll assume that’s: ‘A PAIR of 1073s from TONY Larking Audio’ ?
If so I’m jealous, and sorry for your loss.
I never got to hear His 1073s, (wait were they TLA remakes or racked NEVEs?)
I’m pretty sure that he, and his head engineer (who’s name I can’t recall) left Neve to start TL Audio.
And got started building Neve Preamps like yours.
My first ‘real’ preamp in 1996 was a TL Audio PA2…that I still have!
I loved it so much that I went on to acquire a TL Audio C1 (probably their most famous ‘best kept secret’).
It’s a Stereo/Dual-channel Tube Compressor with 2 more Mic Pres in front.
Then I picked up a TL Audio V1, an 8-channel 2U box with no controls on the front other than Power. On the back are just 8-ins and 8-outs. Inside however is 8 high-voltage Valve/Tube stages that when you send your signals through, they come out sweeter. Gain stage to taste.
(I also got the 2U passive Switcher that allows Inserting and routing the Valves during tracking and again during mixing. Interesting piece.)
I also picked up a later Indigo Series TL Audio 2020? I think. That’s essentially a 1U version of the C1 without the Mic Pres. Sounds slightly different, still amazing, but is years newer and has different tubes inside.
Then on my quest to find a TL Audio EQ1 to complete my set, I accidentally found the most incredible and rare piece in my collection.
A TL Audio M1 8. An 8-channel sidecar Mixer, each with a Preamp and a 4-band EQ, into a Stereo Bus. ALL TUBE!
Each channel passes through 4 valve stages, then another pair on the master bus.
There are 18 12AX7s on the back of this thing.
In the 90s and 2000s TL Audio made a lot of noise with their Modern Tube designs that for many culminated in their full 32-channel VTC Console.
That desk was used on a Number of hit records over the decades and is still highly sought after.
To my understanding though, the development of it basically broke the company.
My Console however is like the ‘concept car’ version that was only released in a small batch (don’t know how many). They made a number of production models afterwards, but their signal paths were simplified in order to add more features and still hit a price point. So the M1s and M3s you’ll find on Google are ‘tube trackers’ , still amazing, and include channel faders & auxes that mine lacks, but their not the same inside.
And it’s all still safe n sound 100 yards from me begging to be powered up and put to use!
@@G_handle I recall TL Audio (hope i got this right) wanting to build big tube mixer without solid state components in the signal path. Of course it didn't happen because of price, heat, weight, etc.
Their VTC Console is very similar to C1 with SSM2017 input followed by ECC83 on HT of 250V, so it is a hybrid design. Most other run tubes at 48V ruining the sound with distortion and other problems.
TL Audio rack gear got attacks on forums like Gearslutz although that wasn't a problem because satisfied users soon silenced them by telling about the sound. One thing that sticks out are a bit hard to get pots, they were using cheap ones costing 1-2eur today, buying from them was expensive.
The owner said their biggest problem were sales in USA because they couldn't sell directly, meaning gear on the biggest market in the world costed much more than in Europe.
p.s.: did you ever try Langeving AM-5116b, D.Fearn VT1 or RCA preamp he based VT1 on? Each belong to one side of the spectrum, meaning VT1 is classic single ended (cap coupled), AM class A push pull. Various revisions tested blew me away, very few others sound as good. Most of them are single ended for some reason...
I now completely understand this! Finally someone who can explain this in simple terms. Thank you!
B) As to the premise of this video, if your basic answer is: Yes, but other things matter more. Then I totally agree.
However, Mic Preamps absolutely do matter, which is why I wrote the previous dissertation. (As does everything in the signal chain between the source and the record button.)
The Same microphone in Ten different Preamps is Ten different Microphones.
And ironically, just yesterday I watched another Sweetwater endorsed TH-cam who was shooting out Exactly This:
A year ago he amassed a desk full of Warm Audio 1073 19-inch clones, enough to mic his full drum kit.
This year he installed an actual Trident 68 console, obviously with mic Preamps on every channel.
So in this video, he Splits the signals from each mic 1-for-1 into both sets of Preamps and presents to you the difference. It ain't subtle.
th-cam.com/video/ckGYT2a2Tvc/w-d-xo.html
Nice! Yeah warm audio are pretty awful, though i found their neve 1073 clone to be their best piece of gear, but overall it’s cheap knock offs that don’t sound great. I don’t ever recommend them. Stam audio is much better for cheap clones that sound good. Gonna check out that video!
Thanks for linking that video. It was an interesting watch. I think one thing to note, and he even mentions it, is that he was driving the warm preamps harder. Even before he mentioned that I was thinking the warms sounded like they were being driven harder. I don't have any hardware, but I've used plugins that emulate neve preamps and I've noticed it's really easy to drive them too hard. On drums they tend to go from fairly transparent to compressed with no transients really quickly. I think that's why the tridents sounded more punchy. It would be interesting to see a shootout of preamps with clean settings. I bet the difference is much more subtle.
@@weeschwee Agreed. First, I think the timing of this video and that is ironically perfect.
I also watched him setting up and thought, you can't really hit preamps or anything else at identical levels thinking you're getting apples-for-apples.
Each different piece responds to gainstaging differently. That test does tell you Something useful, but there are more useful tests.
To begin with, b.i.t.d. you would test each piece in your arsenal to find:
A) where's the noise floor
B) how high can you go with No distortion (so the cleanest setting)
C) at what point do you push it and the distortion is unacceptable
D) between maximum clean and too much distortion, that's your usable range
E) now where in there does this particular signal sound the best, that's the infamous "Sweet Spot".
Neve 1073s, API 312s, and every other Preamp is going to have different answers to the above questions.
A couple more thoughts:
1) Most people don't have access to A/B test a full set of Preamps like this.
And this is the best way.
Because the differences Accumulate!
One Pre vs another Will tell you something, but one full Console worth of Preamps across many channels, vs another Console or Rack full of Preamps, that's where you'll see the BIG difference the minute differences make.
Hence producers bringing or renting thier own favorite Lunchboxes, Racks, or Sidecars during the tracking stage.
2) So for this guy, since he luckily owns both and can presumably take his time testing, tweaking, and tracking his own drums. He should keep those splits setup, but rather than Match settings between both sets, find the Best settings for each, then Track Both regularly.
You could think of it like Micing a Cabinet, but also tracking a D.I.
Then in the mix, you could either use whichever one fits the mix better, or blend between the two. Or use one for choruses and then other for verses. Or use one Dry and send the other to the Reverbs, or Crush.
Either way...
Options.
I had privilege of using and comparing most high quality vintage and many new preamps, beside some of their copies. It makes me wonder why do API/Neve come up so often when there are other solid state options sounding as good or better than this two.
Tube preamps weren't mentioned despite being simply great for many things like vocals, bass, drums too, acoustic instr., etc. I noticed they tend to make mid priced mics sound better as if they were expensive mics.. Cost can be issue with these, although some out of fashion models like Peavey cost very little while sounding great with replacement of output transformers, diy by technicians servicing gear can also be cheap beside having custom controls or sound shaped for the user.
Companies like Warm Audio are using cheapest materials possible, transformers tend to be ok if present but they will certainly not function properly longer than 10 years or so. I'm quite impressed by the sound and quality of Coil Audio, price of their modules is low enough it might be worth finding someone who will rack and power them...
@@Signal_Glow A) I was unaware of Coil, so I'm checking those out now.
B) I very much agree about the obsession with SSL, API, Neve. To help answer why, it isn't just the preamps, it's the Consoles this Pres were in. Commercial Studios basically Had to have those three food groups, because those were the 3 main console companies. If you had one Console, you better have the other two's Preamps (and EQs, and Channel Comps, and Bus Compressors). So studios would often likely have an SSL desk with a pair or rack of 1073s and/or 312s, or sidecar consoles. So all the basic options. I also agree that Tube Mic Pres are often infinitely more useful.
C) Just this morning I responded to another comment on this same video about my TL Audio tube obsession. Check my other comment that starts wit "Barry!"
D) To throw more light on your question, I just spent last week at NAMM. If it wasn't already clear, there really is an Old School / New School divide within the industry. Many of these new schoolers will never go beyond the preamps in an interface. They're buying cardboard boxes with pretty graphics on the outside, then filming themselves opening the box. The idea that they would solder up an XLR cable, let alone a Patchbay, swap out Tubes or Transformers, or re-cap a Channelstrip....I don't see that happening.
It's also SUPER important to realize you have to KNOW what you're doing, that comes with experience. Once you do, you will know what really matters and what doesnt.
Remember--if you look at the signal and see red, that means you need to turn up the gain more.
Barry, I always appreciate you honesty and integrity in all that you do. thanks
The whole point of audio engineering to begin with is that Everything is subtle, but combined it becomes a huge factor in the outcome. So anything that adds a subtle improvement, go for it. Better mic, better pre amp, better EQ, better compressor, better A/D converter, better monitors, the tiny little clean ups on tracks, treat every song like the biggest song of your life, all little things will equal big results.
I agree with the over arching sentiment and believe it’s important not to believe gear will be the answer to bad recordings. But great mixes in the box require a much higher skill level and experience. Once i upgraded my mic to the akg 414 and then added the ssl 500 preamp, mixing is so much easier and faster as the vocals come out needing very little plugin processing and i can get to my desired sound with little work. Analogue gear is very graceful that its hard to overdue it on processing as well. Will the end user care? nope, but in the pursuit of being a master at the craft like u said all these things compound to help make your next masterpiece something that you and the fans enjoy.
No mention of Tube Mic Preamps… good ones are not cheap but if you get one with several transformer options and drive controls it’s like turning every mic in your locker into a tube mic. Amazing the versatility, and assuming folks already have a couple decent mics, a good Tube Pre will dramatically expand the sonic pallet… it’s more than just a little change! (Not disagreeing that everything in the signal chain matters… but things you do in the analog domain before converters can drastically change the final sound in ways it’s difficult to replicate once in the box.)
Hey Barry, this is a very good one. In the early 1990's I purchased a Neumann U87 from a farmer who found it in his deceased son's possessions. He offered it to me for $400. The farmer wanted to to go to a good home and he was friends with my parents and knew me through them. I told him it was worth a lot more than $400 but he insisted. Still had the nice wood box that they sell with and the shock mount. I jumped on it a bought it. It didn't work in the shape it was in so I sent it to Neumann and had it repaired for an additional $350. It sounded good through my Allen & Heath GL3000, Yamaha 01V96 and my Focusrite Scarlett 4i4. Then last year I purchased an RME Fireface UCX II and that is when you could hear just how good the mic Neumann sounded. Several people have recorded through it and it is a prefect representation of their voice. For me and my recording, I use it through a SSL Alpha Channel to give it a bit more warmth and to take away the thinness in my voice.
Doing things in the right order make a world of difference when you get to the end. As I always say it is better to start at the start and move to the end rather than start in the middle and not know which way to go. Enjoyed the video as always and one of us still owes the other a beer and some conversation down at Captain Tony's in Key West. Since I'm coming from Illinois, you are going to have to buy the beer. Have a great one!!
I like that quote.
I got one for 400 too, died soon after . I think a capacitor died , should get it fixed!
@@MG53v8 I don’t know what it would cost to get fixed now, but definitely it would be a great investment.
Niice shirt. All I know is if using an external pre-amp then make sure you can bypass the internal pre-amps in your audio interface; otherwise, you’ll be getting the sound of the internal pre-amp too and maybe more of it!
Put a SM57 into a focusrite RED 7 that 57 will sound very different - that being said it does depend on a lot other factors as mentioned in the video. Great work Barry!
What interface do you recommend with a wa-8000 condenser mic ?
I recommend the apogee interface like a quartet, duet or symphony desktop. The first two on the used market are affordable. I paid 1500 on the quartet brand new but used they are like 500. The internal preamps sound fantastic. They compete with neve 1073. I owned the bae 1073 and sold it when I realized my internal pres were just as good.
I feel that as a singer a pre-amp does make a significant difference and the right one can make you feel more confident in your singing, along with the right compressor and EQ. BTW, I see you have a couple of SSL UF8s, would really appreciate a review of it for recording at home studio, and whether it would significantly improve workflow over something like a faderport with single fader.
Hi, I've been mixing along time now. And I found a big difference when I went tested it I did a test.. I recorded vocals, bass & guitar through an Audient I'd 22. And then I went through my new Neve 1073 mic pre right through the converters of the Audient id22. By-passing the Audient mic pre. The Neve added so much more weight to the sound and natural saturation. And it's accumulative. So when I listened back to all the tracks from the Audient id22 mic pre and compared to all the tracks through the Neve. The overall sound was so much bigger, with that nice low-end. It was clearly a big difference. To my ears. I've been in the music business for over 40yrs. I realize a beginner and someone fairly new may not hear a major difference. But those with a trained ears will notice a big difference. And converters make a big difference. I compared my Aurora N TB 32 to the Audient converter and the MOTU 16A Converters. And you can hear the separation and air around the sound as I describe it.. My biggest thing is we're mixing songs. So it's deceiving to just listen to one track. If you have one track with a nice mic pre that can be driven into beautiful saturation and really nice conversion.. And you compare 32 tracks with an Audient id22 and 32 tracks with Neve Pres and Aurora N conversion. It's a very big difference. This is from my experience, doing these tests.. Love your channel...🙂👍👍👍
I think preamps make a small difference to condenser mics but a big difference to dynamics/passive ribbons when using them on lower level sources. 60dB of gain for my SM7B on my previous interface (Antelope Discrete 8) was very hissy and near unusable for quieter vocalists and regular speech. Maxed out 70dB of gain on my Neve 88RLB has a much quieter noise floor which makes my SM7B more usable and easier to do post processing to. Fethead is no longer required.
This has been my experience too! I think the big name/higher dollar preamps also do inject a nuanced character as well and to me at least that is more easily discerned on dynamic microphones vs. condenser s. Perhaps it is a combination of the preamp circuit design/topology, the larger amount of gain needed and how the preamp input impedance loads the microphone output.
I have a variety of preamps - internal and external. (Avalon Design, Audient, SSL, Neumann etc). It is enjoyable to have a variety but all of the preamps I have work well. I agree with you that it is not necessary to have other preamps if the basic preamps are good quality.
I have done null test between NEVE and API with spilt signals so it was the same performance. It almost completely nulls. Do what you want with that information.
When I was assisting, the engineer hired a bunch of Massenburg GML 8300 mic pre-amps to record drums. They are damn expensive but you can hear the quality, the transient response was night and day over anyhting I'd heard till then.
This dude is direct to the point and not boring like other people on TH-cam
The best thing you said is that these are incremental things that add up to the finished product. No magic bullet, just lots of small things that add up to the whole.
Barry is a great GAS antidote. Awesome communicator 👍
You are 100% correct! Back in the late 90's, I used to make my recordings using the internal preamps from my Mackie 32-8 bus mixer. It worked just fine. The end user didn't listen for API mojo. They wanted a clean vocal sound, and that's exactly what they got. In fact, I would be hard pressed if anyone outside of being in the room while tracking vocal is going to reject the sound because a Neve was not used. Does the Neve make a difference? You bet it does. Currently, I'm using the Manley reference mic with a Manley Voxbox as a vocal chain. I could as easily plug into the mackie 32-8, and with good compression and EQ, I can obtain a really good sound as well. The noise specs may not be as good as the Neve preamps, but when you have blazing guitars and loud drums and you are cutting hard rock, that noise gets masked and you will never hear it. I worked the studios of the late 70's to early 80's, and remember when 30IPS started to be the tape speed of choice. Yes, 15IPS had a bit more tape hiss, but the sound was great. Engineers started using 30IPS for everything, including loud and heavy rock. At the end of the day, you couldn't hear the tape hiss of 15IPS. Same allies with mic preamps as far as I'm concerned. Thanks for this great video.
I have been using my Behringer T1 Tube Condenser microphone for 25 years. It was quite noisy until I put a 7025EH to it, which sounds like a $1000 microphone since then.
I was looking into getting a pair of high end channel strips until I decided to just stay all in the box. I don’t have experience of real Neve / API preamps but with my UA Apollo and Luna etc. it sounds pretty decent to me! I remember how my recordings sounded back in the mid-2000s with my old Digi 002 and this sounds so much better.
Having said that, as a bass player I have a number of different bass preamps in my home studio. 😂
Just found your channel... Great advice Barry. The acceleration of home recording with digital exploded in the 1990's, but AD/DA conversion and built-in mic pre-amps to those units lacked the ability to even service exceptional mics. It was in that period that specialized converters emerged to help resolve, and external mic pre-amps definitely had a significant quality improvement from what was stock on those interfaces/recording devices. I recall the huge difference a two channel $1,500 mic preamp unit made with any decent mic back then. That same tube mic pre-amp that I still have now has a much reduced impact on mic performance today, since the level of conversion, pre-amp quality, and ITB plugins/adjustments are so far advanced now. Worrying about these external components in the signal chain has been massively reduced with the quality of mic pre's and conversion in interfaces today, add to that the quality of mics available at prices unheard of back then as well. I still have and use that external tube Demeter mic pre (and tube compressor), but only because I have them, for flavor (which could be my false bias). New setups with mid to high end interfaces wouldn't really be lacking without them.
Great talk. Many people will benefit from listening to your wise words. Thank you.
I think that if you have a low budget the best inversion you can do is in a very good audio interface and a good microphone before a external mic Pre Amp
Mic preamps matter but not as much as people think. People listen to songs, not gear.
But ppl listen to great records = great mics and mic pres.
@@mrflynn01 exactly
I not agree with the last replies.
I was in a session , we tried an AKG C12, Neumann U47 with a world class pre I can’t remember it’s name.
Finally we decided to use the Neumann. We weren’t really joyful with the vocal tone.
At the mix stage I decided to give a try and re record the voice with my trusty Rode NT1 and ART tubepac mic pre. It was absolutely amazing. I don’t say that the other original track was bad, what I mean is for this particular female singer this combination fitted better in the song.
Lord is my witness, hope your not atheist !! Haha
@@mrflynn01 It's not the gear it's the ear and it always will be listening to that and what you said is the reason bad mixing choices and horrible songs get created.
It’s about the song. Generally, people don’t care about the sonics. Only we obsess about it.
Nice video - organized, articulate and balanced perspective.
Best video about mic pres on TH-cam :) Thank you :)
Excellent topic and great synopsis Barry. I really appreciate that you talked about every piece in the chain to explain your point about mic preamps.
+1 on RME interfaces. Along with excellent conversion, outstanding mic pres, you get the best drivers and support in the industry. Been a customer for over 20 years and my first PCI card from them still works and sounds great. I've since upgraded to the latest Babyface and UCXII. Both fantastic interfaces.
Ayyyyyeee! Barry’s back!! Can’t wait for that new channel !!
Thanks for the historical perspective. One clarification: Paul Wolff introduced the API Lunchbox shortly after he bought the company's assets in 1985, and by the late '80s they were popular in studios and on the road loaded with API 512, 550, and 560 modules. Other manufacturers adopted the format much later.
Julian Krause does an excellent job of measuring and analyzing the preamps and other circuitry in audio interfaces.
I asked Julian why would anyone spend a lot of money for an external preamp, and what else is there to measure, his answer is simply "I really don't know". There is basically nothing scientific to measure other than saturation, and even that is very low at minus 80db with many great pieces of gear. Basically, people are delusional most of the time.
@@BojanBojovic That is very interesting
can u link me the video?
@@lordberly It's more like a channel:
youtube.com/@JulianKrause
@@lordberly www.youtube.com/@JulianKrause
In my experience, the high quality preamp shines when using low output dynamic mics. The difference in noise level alone can be dramatic. Condenser mics with higher outputs ask a lot less of the preamp.
Have all kinds of preamps from Neve, API, UA, tube, transformer balanced etc. I think for as much as everyone (including myself) hype up the importance of preamp sonics. I don't think most folks on here (including myself) could tell you the difference on a source in a blind listening test with a busy mix.
i would have thought you would be over here going to NAMM 2023? Il'l let you know what's NEW @ Universal Audio & what they've done :) I have a $4K NEVE ( "SHELFORD CHANNEL" ) ...I use it but I've done comparison & still find myself using UA "UNISEN" ? Running a TELEFUNKEN TF29 Cond. Mic ( for me )
I used UAD Unison preamps for six years. I then recorded some vocals at a professional studio. I noticed the vocals recorded at the professional studio sounded better than the vocals I recorded with UAD Unison preamps.
After 5-6 months of research, I purchased the Neve Shelford Channel. Now my vocals sound just as good as the vocals I recorded at the professional studio.
A few weeks ago, I recorded some vocals with UAD Unison. No comparison to the Shelford Channel.
The industry goes through periods of innovating new products, then periods of recreating vintage products.
I've got a TLA stereo preamp compressor, from the 90s. It's not a clone of any vintage gear, it's its own thing, and it sounds fantastic.
People buy vintage clones for the same reason they buy signature guitars: if they get the same kit, they can pretend to be their hero.
IMO, having owned nearly every boutique preamp available, and I have found preamp differences to be about tonal nuance, transient response, noise floor, and distortion character. Pretty much ALL preamps are relatively neutral /linear/ clean, until they pushed /cranked/turned up.
30 years ago, an audio engineer told me when I was first starting, "the difference between mid cost gear and high end $4000+ gear is only subtle, the steps up in price are huge compared to the ever decreasing percentages of "better" you gain. I'd also add that these days, the general huge rise in quality across the board and the extremely low ROI most mix engineers make compared to the "good ol' days" is so low and the destruction of the end quality by converting to MP3 and watnot, makes it a silly waste of money to invest in very much high end gear. The secret, in the end, is to spend your money wisely.
Probably the most legit break down regarding this topic. Let’s go! 👌
For my setup (small mobile recording rig) I started seeing a difference in my recordings with these 3 factors: better mics, better pres, better recording technique. I spend less time mixing getting to the sound I want now that I have nice tools to get me there earlier in the process.
I select certain pres for their sonic characteristics (EQ bump, natural compression, saturation or clean and transparent), mics and technique to get me as close as possible to the finished sound I want.
The mic preamps on these newer interfaces really does close the gap a lot like the unison preamps from UA. I have Golden Age, Warm Audio, and I remember having a first gen Mbox. Things have definitely changed. I'm stuck right now with an Apollo Twin using the unison with a Neumann TLM 102 and the Slate Digital mic with the software preamp and mic emulation. I almost always have decapitator after for more grit as well. I rarely grab my Shure SM7B, but I got rid of my cloudlifter with the Apollo. I don't want to invest anymore into my apollo/UA preamps and still have the Golden Age and Warm Audio outboards which may indeed find a home with a new Babyface. Still, it's all still better than that MBox or whatever it was that came before.
I would like to say, I’ve owned the bae 1073 dmp twice. They sounded pretty good but then realized my apogee quartet internal preamps where just as good. I recommend the apogee preamps on the quartet. They go up 75 db of gain. The bae does 80 db of gain. I use 40-50 db of gain which is plenty. Also, I recommend a good digital compressor. The cl1b from soft tube sounds great with light compression.
I’m recording my voice with a EV RE20 through a cloudlifter into a focusrite 18i20
I’m wondering what the best place to spend around 2-3k would be from here ~
I don’t want to change the microphone! I’m super happy with that.
Happy for anyone to share their thoughts/ suggestions 😊
Only time I ever bought one was for a ribbon mic. I wasn't getting it for a better quality of tone, but solely because I was told that I needed that extra gain to get a decently strong signal. And for that purpose, I'd say yeah it was useful for that. Ribbon mics are quiet as hell. The problem is that even the best mic preamp is still gonna add some of its own noise to the signal. Like you said, it mattered back in the day when interface preamps were crap, but nowadays I don't get much benefit from it. I've found myself not using the preamp entirely out of laziness and not seeing an appreciable difference. The clean signal I get is less fatty, but after applying all the filters and EQ it's basically identical.
I just got my first outboard gear. A BAE 1073MP its so good. Even makes it inspiring to play DI which was something I didn't get out of my Focusrite 18i20. I like it so much I'm currently working on a Rock History video of the Neve 1073 and consoles
That is one hell of a mic pre.
@@PurpleMusicProductions it's great thanks
@@g_and_kikos_studio you're welcome. I have that one as well and it will go to my grave with me so I know exactly what you experiencing lol. I have run the same material through it and the plugin version and there is absolutely no comparison.
@@PurpleMusicProductions agree I think I'm gonna get another 2 channel version for my extra space on my power supply eventually
@@g_and_kikos_studio You can't go wrong with that move at all. The funny thing is the BAE version is the clone of the Neve, but the former is typically the most sought after. BAE makes killer gear and are well worth their price. They sound great on pretty much everything and the harder you drive it the better it sounds especially on midrange and bass. By accident I recorded a bass part too hot and it added a bit of distortion BUUUT fitted the song and mix so well I refused to retake it and instead wrote down the settings. It worked so well that the mix basically mixed itself and there was not much work to do afterwards and that's the point at least in my humble opinion.
Decent mics matched with great mic preamps takes you out of incessant plugins arms race, chasing the latest trends, wasting money on essentially the same plugin when that time could be spent creating. Plugins have a place in a hybrid system and I use them, but they should be the supplement and not the core basis. If nothing else as engineer advised me, playing in the box has its place but analog on the incoming signal (mic pres) makes a universe of difference. He said invest on good mic pres and don't go cheap, but everything else it's fine to go budget/economical.
Very interesting. Because a pre-amp is transitive, in that without a signal to amplify, it does nothing. It amplifies the -> source
Knowledge like this is much appreciated. Thank you for taking the time!
Great observations, it always starts with the source, than the mic, position of the mic , pre amp , often i hear about great guitar pickups but nobody talks about the wood and balance of the instruments , its all about the source
Agree 100%. Spent the weekend recording various instruments into several of the preamps I own (including those in my audio interface, a Tascam 16x08) and doing comparisons. The difference, if any (I certainly couldn't tell), is negligible. It's the combination of it all that, as Mr. Johns says, makes the difference.
awesome insights as usual.
I'm using a soundcraft Ui24 as a sound card, and love the studer designed mic preamps, and maybe a couple of hardware compressors will be the way to go now for that hybrid thing...well we'll see!great job! thanks for all the vídeos you put out!✌️😎
That was the best explanation of how things are and what to expect! Thanks for doing this video.
Indeed, that's what I found out eventually. All the gear needs to match each other.
for me i just need more mic inputs, so i got 4 channel mic pre from warm audio. im young don't have too much money and was using a crappy mixer......the difference is enormous between that and the external preamps. i would also argue from experience that good external preamps are much better than a cheaper audio interface and will make a big difference, ESPECIALLY if your adding large amounts of gain. I have an arturia 16rig interface those mic pre amps are good but still slightly lacking from the warm audio. for context im talking sm57,58,sm7b, and a blue condenser mic.
I have a Telefunken preamp with a Tube mic. I’m still trying to learn the sound.
Really great talk. Informative points made well and clearly, which make some real sense. I can agree, based on my own experiences. Thank you for sharing.
I think a good channel strip will make more of a difference (obviously at a higher cost) due to the relation between the manufacturer's Pre, EQ and Compressor, which are designed to sound good together. But yes, you need decent mics first.
Hell yes they do !
500 format is the best way to experience without spending too much and loosing money.
You're a fantastic narrator! well done!
For mic pre's you need to reach the bottom tier to make a difference. Once above that its incremental to a point. BUT there are some that just shine above when used on everything. I bought a A-Designs 500 Pacifica $1000 years ago by a recommendation from a top studio guy in LA and wow that thing shines on everything.
There are surgical mic pre's that shine on one or a few things then there are ones that make everything sound good.
But I agree with what Barry is saying. There is only so much money you can throw at something where its not going to make a difference.
You got a great deal on the Pacifica, they are very good when you want clean, transparent recordings!
Pacíficas amazing !!!!
Microphones and rooms guys!! Pre and convertors are so much more subtle.
Incremental improvements are the key thing. I have tried budget items and I have purchased some SSL gear. Each thing I have, I took the time to focus on two things: Making the left and right channel the best I can. I got SM57s, 58s, some Blue mics, some good cables, an interface like M-Audio AIR that sounds really well (also had a Tascam 24, Mackie, Peavey... they're Preamps ruined my sound). I then saved up for SSL channel strips on sale, then a GCOMP, then and Ultraviolet. That helped me earn the money to get more and more. and a great Soundcraft UI24R. Same mics, more cables, boom stands, more Blue mics 57s and 58s. I even bought some JBL Eon715s, then a snake, just by trying to make the left and right channel sound the best I can.
The key was to do the best with a stereo setup. push my skills and lower a cost for someone to come track, REINVEST into the recording. and in one year, I have been able to enjoy it. I run sound too for shows.
BUT, I do not know what to do next. Advice?
Love this video - so much great information and advice
I agree, that record production is incremental. But, we're often at the mercy of our weakest link whether it's talent or gear related. If you have a top shelf mic that cost many thousands, and hear what the differences are running it through prosumer amps versus a BAE, Neve, API etc...the differences will be audible. Whether one likes those differences or not is purely subjective.
Great micpres do make a difference.
Right now I’m re/amping some rap tracks through my ISA Two, Apollo SF quad and Logic 10.4 on my PC I have a SSL2.
Mic AKG C414
Jerry I never said they don’t make a difference, the point was that and that alone will not transform you recordings. Pairing with a great mic is very important to make the preamp truly shine.
@@BarryJohns thanks for the correction.
great stuff Barry, just out of curiosity, I can see in the backgroud you own a Heritage Audio HA73EQ, how do you compare it to the Warm Audio WA73EQ? Build and sound quality wise? Cannot decide which one to buy and please don't say it doesn't matter. It does and I care haha, thank you
Great video, could you follow up with your rankings of some of the less expensive and mid range built-in preamp like the Scarlett and Apollo, etc.
You are a great man
I have a 3rd gen Scarlett interface and a 90’s 1U, ART dual MP and a TubePac (pre and comp) that just seemed to survive 25 years of moving. I hooked up the ART’s again to have some more phantom power and to use the TubePac as a Bass pre/DI.
I’ve never expected a whole lot out of them.
I recently got a Warm WA12 (API style) to try out and found when I was doing testing using a Marshall rock, guitar tone, between the ART’s and the Warm the difference was too negligible to justify keeping the Warm. I bet I could hardly get $50/60 for the ART’s.
The WA12 had the slightest bit more low end but I found there was just no moment of aha! That is better. I was getting comparison fatigue going back and forth trying to get that moment and it just never happened. I definitely tried settings where they were pushing hard and the ART just sounded fine.
I’m definitely going to pivot to looking at compressors, actually have a FMR RNC inbound at the moment. I’m older and as this a fun hobby (professional work long behind me), I like knobs, hardware aesthetics. So I still wouldn’t say no to a fun looking Neve clone etc but certainly not feeling they’re necessary. I agree I get more out of mic choice and placement, speaker choice, guitar and EQ on the amp.
I actually liked the ART over the Scarlett.
This was great. Thanks.
no but they had great mic preamps in the studio console...you got a Harrison, a Calrec,an API, a MCI, a Neve or an SSL you don't n need external mic preamps indeed...But today most people don't use those desks anymore so having a solid stereo preamp is a must in my opinion.
agreed on the Microphone vs preamp
Great video. Great advice. A good microphone is super important, in fact the most important thing in your front end.
So glad I found your channel!! I love the way you explain your thoughts and opinions. This vid was spot on about the preamps not making a huge difference. I totally agree. Keep making great content!! Much ❤️ Barry!!
Excellent and timely talk Barry. Always love your perspective. I am at the edge of this rabbit hole of 'wanting' to upgrade from prosumer stuff to more 'pro' and learning a lot. I have a couple decent higher-end mic's but not much beyond - Sennheiser 441, AKG 414 B/ULS. I am beginning to have this feeling that my approach to home recording needs to have more of the 'proximity' effect of instruments in my recordings. In other words - more of a sense of authentic 3D space. It seems easy to get a good direct sound and pepper with phenomenal digital ambiance, but my favorite recordings have a sense of position/depth. To me, this smacks of room and mic placement, and probably a whole different set of mics.
It's so funny how I tell everyone exactly what you said about producing music back in the seventies and eighties that nobody used external preamps and no one ever believes me they just cannot even conceive of not having all of this external gear . you better listen to us old guys we know we're talking about😊
This is a superb video Barry, really informative and honest. It put my desires for a sweet preamp into perspective. Turns out a microphone upgrade or two will be more impactful for me now. Have you made any videos on microphone tonality and how to choose the right mic for the right situation?
It’s facts spend money on best mics and the best mic pre your money can buy you.
No it's not false!!! statement
With a sm57 and a decent audio interface great recordings can be made
Hi Barry I'm just a record in the box guy.great video 👍
Would be curious to hear your thoughts on mic quality across different price ranges. You mentioned $300 LDC's here and then $4000 but there's a huge gap between those. I see you got several WA products on your desk, what do you think of their higher end mics and other stuff that is a bit more economical? How do you feel they compare to the much more expensive clones?
Mic preamps are quite important imo. My focusrite built in mics are tinny and sound like they are missing the middle. My UA pre sounds way more alive.
With my SE Electronic Titan condenser, I can immediately tell the difference going through my Midas XL preamp or direct into Motu Track16 interface.
Just my opinion, but if you have a good mic going into a good interface, you're pretty much there. Interfaces have preamps. And adding another preamp will introduce more color, but the mic and the interface are, I think, more important. I have an Apollo Solo and it came with some fantastic plugins and a few different preamp sims that can give you different character.
I think this was a fair way to characterize preamps, mainly due to potentially false expectations people have. For acoustic instruments and drums, I find good preamps absolutely make a noticeable difference, but I’m not expecting any preamp to make a bad drum sound good. What I do expect is for the sound to have the subtle character of the preamp that all adds up with multiple tracks in a mix. Also, with good outboard gear in general you’re getting better sound to tape rather than having to do more mixing to get the tone you want.
How much a mic preamp will improve your music is going to depend on what you’re currently using and what you’re upgrading to. If you go a Focusrite Scarlet to a Fearn VT-2, you’re going to hear a significant difference. If you go from a Focusrite Scarlet to a Warm WA-12, it’s not going to be so significant.
I do agree that the microphone is the more significant purchase. But once you have your microphone …the one that really works for you… then finding a complimentary preamp is a worthy search.
My first two quality preamps were the John Hardy M-2 and the Demeter VTMP-2c. Both were significant upgrades from the Digi 003 preamps I had at the time. The Hardy is clean and can be pushed hard without noise becoming an issue. The Demeter is magic on fet mics. My main vocal mic at the time I bought the Demeter was a Blue Kiwi. The Demeter brings that mic to whole other level. I’ve loaned it to two friends with studios and they were both blown away by it.
Eventually, I bought a Flea 47 and I didn’t love the Demeter or the Hardy on that mic and I added a Hendy Da Vinci and a Sebatron Axis 200vu. Both are outstanding preamps and compliment my Flea very well.
I thought I was done with preamps there but then API released the 312 500 unit …and to my ears, nothing Is better on strummed acoustic than that preamp, so I added a pair to my 500 chassis. I’m pretty well covered for preamps now. They all add something but like I said, it depends where you and where the preamp lets you land.
@o'o Fearn is one of the best preamps out there. It's especially good on acoustic guitar.
Do you have any audio samples we can hear?
Hey man, this video is fire you just spoke the truth because I’ve been recording music for over 15 years and lately I was using the Avalon 737 plug-in and after that I also went out and purchased the real Avalon 737 hardware and there’s really not a big difference
Thanks for always putting out solid material, Barry! Have you played with any Arturia plugins lately?
Completely agree.
Barry , really like your honesty and genuine content about audio . Well could u make a video on a subject we all desire to hear abt
a professional recording set up in a bedroom studio
Yes, give me time though.
@@BarryJohns i have a rme babyface pro fs , i was wondering to get a better signal chain for my mix bus processing using outboard gear via adat , could u suggest some options for a significant improvement on audio processing or u want me to upgrade to a higher end version of rme to see that change
You rock Barry!!!
Cool video!! I'm by no means an expert but I would also point a beginner to maybe do room treatment or a good pair of monitors aside from investing in some good mics.
Your clear directive is of more value than the cost or fabulous deal on any gear.
Interesting discussion.
Good stuff.👍🥃