The MOST RIDICULOUS Preamp Shootout
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 29 ต.ค. 2023
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How much of a nerd are you? Blind listen video here: ( th-cam.com/video/j96SFD6oso4/w-d-xo.html ) Also hit up Scott and Rafael if you need some sexy keys or bass lines on your songs! links to them in description.
okay
Hit me, my name is Rafael :)
Loved that experiment! The colors really add up as you go higher in the instrument/track count, which shows the importance of knowing what piece of gear works best with what the song asks for.
Also, thanks for having me. That was a lot of fun!
Got into your channel from the studio tours. Understand you’ve probably exhausted that. Love that you can hear the difference between preamps. Hope to see you back outside of your studio soon dude.
This always makes me chuckle. Preamps are so good now a days on even behringer interfaces the difference is very subtle. I record pro sounding mixes on a behringer ada8200 and a presonus interface via adat. A proper mic and room will make a bigger difference as well as the performance. Pres at the high end level are more a flavor at that point. Many hits are and have been made on budget gear. It's all about your ears. And yes different pres are subtle. However it's about as a dramatic difference as most people won't hear a difference real world. I went down this preamp rabbit hole as well as the plug in and hardware rabbit hole. After you hear many preamps you tend to know their character. Api to me for drums always has more punch (pronounced mid range). Neve always have a heavier sound (low end bump). Again if you have normal speakers most aren't going to notice. Even on a pro monitoring situation it will still be subtle. Kids don't get carried away with spending a fortune on gear until you grasp how it all works. Signal chain starts with the source. And player. Always.
Im inclined to agree, you can get the job done on anything but different preamps (if you have them) can definitely get you closer quicker. If you can get it right at source, all the better. Most people wont ever have this many preamps to choose from though. It's definitely not essential to the process but fun if you have them I guess.
Game is the game. Always.
I saw this video where Julian Kraus is analyzing the Universal Audio Volt series interfaces - I think it may have been the 476p. The preamp frequencies were as flat as possible, even outmatching Neumann’s newest interface. A number of years ago, having a preamp with a flat frequency response to get the most transparent effect was desired… nowadays, it’s all about having the opposite. I have a Neve 1073 SPX but rarely ever use it unless I need its EQ for something specific.
Turns out I really enjoy the sound of that AEA pre!
Agree - the AEA's sounded so good!
All of them sound great, the APIs were my favorites but I 100% agree with picking pre for the source and mix.
The audient seemed to have a smoother sound on just the drums but after summing all together API is king for good reason.
Awesome video as usual! I'm definitely downloading those files now to check out, I was surprised how good those AEA preamps sounded on every source.
Another fun video. I really enjoyed the two you posted today!
I surprisingly liked the Trident a lot. But yeah, that API pre is so lovely. On all fronts actually. The bass felt especially more 3D.
That AEA is killer, originally made for Ribbon mics, so that quick top end and bright thing is what you need for ribbons, Great vid...
It really is, I didn't engage any eq's on anything for this test but those EQ's on the AEA's are amazing.
I guessed the Wa73 and the AEA each time but the other two were much more subtle. The Wa73 has this mid range bump, and the AEA has that low end making them easier to spot. They all sounded great overall but the AEA sounded the most finished to my ear. You could definitely mix and match these to different situations. That AEA is stellar on low end!
This comparison is phenomenal!! 👏I would love to see these high-end preamps compare when recording hi-gain metal amp with a real cab by blending multiple mics. When the guitar tone has high gain, clarity becomes imperceptible and quality preamps play a major role in providing clarity and bringing out harmonics when the guitarist soloing. It would be great to see this kind of comparison on this best channel! Thanks!!
Great job, Andrew! When you said you matched levels using Peak Level metering, I thought, Crap, that's not gonna work! But you immediately caught the mistake and corrected it. You really are developing your ears! You scored way better than me in the blind test. But I was not surprised by the AEA's crystal clear present-in-the-room-with-you richness. Similarly, you can capture a stunning vocal sound if you match the AEA to the right tube mic. Wanna tickle your ears recording Acoustic Guitar? Try that AEA ribbon mic you have, what is it, a R-44? Try that ribbon mic 16-20 inches away from your fingerpicker and use the delicious equalizer on the AEA to sculpt till you break out in a smile...
Thank You! I love these blind test to see what I can really hear.
Of course, thanks for checking it out!
These final thoughts/words on the making the right choice during the recording process are top notch. I'm not at all in a fancy studio, home studio, all itb, but for some reason I could find these thoughts a ton helpful to pick the right plugins during mixing. I think atm I'm too much with the sound I like and not enough in a way fo research in something new. Definitely will give a try on different channel strip and see what happens. I tend to know what channel strip to use regarding tastes of producers I work with or the mix, but sometimes I'm pretty sure changing can have some very interesting ideas.
I found more values in these final thoughts than the whole shootout, don't get me wrong that was interesting in listening to the right things to compare, but yeah sharing thoughts is where the big value is at, at least to me. So thanks a ton for that.
Cheers !
Oh and first video I watch from you, so here I sub!
I appreciate you watching, thanks!
love the keys!
Really loving ALL your content but this is the first time I've downloaded some files from you and had a play myself and... WOW! I had a great geeky time, just using GarageBand on my MacBook Pro (because that's what I had with me at home, I use Universal Audio's LUNA in my studio) and comparing the different pre amps. The differences when solo'd are insane. I decided to go through each mic/channel and pick my favourite pre amp solo'd (spent ages on this!) then do a new mix with my new selections. When I hit the spacebar.... BOOM! It was incredible! So it turns out I really seemed to favour the AEA overall but my final choices were...
AEA
Bass DI
Kick Out
Overheads
API
Keys
Snare Top
TRIDENT
Overheads 2nd Choice
WA
Bass Amp
Thank you for the fun times!
Leon, (Sheffield, UK)
I wasn't familiar with them enough to match them and took a different route, I pick the one I thought sounded the best. I choose the Trident on drums and Bass and the Warm on the keys. I was hoping I would choose all Warm sense I just bought a few of those. They were my second choice for Drums and Bass. Enjoyed this and very impressive you match as many as you did. Much respect!
The Warm Audios really did something round to the kick. Not quite sure how else to describe that but the WA73 was the one I got right every test.
Your studio and sound are awesome !!!
The API on the keys were truly the best, they give way more the sensation of life to the keys, and they fill fuller and bigger then the other preamps. Just a personal thought
Love this video. I was really surprised by the trident console's sound compared to the others. I kind of liked it on everything ;)
Got the API and AEA right, the trident and warm mixed up. Coincidentally API pre’s are the ones I have the most experience with/ most familiarity and AEA is second. Have hardly had any experience with warm or tridents so it makes sense I was not able to discern those differences 😂
Can't believe how much I loved the AEA's
I've done similar shootouts with a variety of gear (mics, speakers, preamps, amps, etc.). Rather than trying to eyeball RMS levels, I bounce it, use Expose to get the LUFS and gain accordingly (usually with an EQIII plugin for plenty of gain up or down).
First, Great Video once again!
Now, many things have been stirred up by this direct comparison:
A) right out of the gate you tracked then level matched to Peak then re-level matched to RMS. Then you said "Thats a whole other thing..."
YES!
I think that is THE thing.
That difference between Peak and Average, the Crest Factor, is my greatest curiosity.
I think that All of them will be pretty similar in most of thier pre-amp duties.
They all have enough gain of course.
They'll all be pretty clean, as in extremely low harmonic distortion, when you run them below thier break-up points (more on that).
And they'll all be pretty flat in terms of frequency response, and whatever minor frequency response differences there are can easily be compensated with EQ.
But the Peak to RMS ratio points to something else. Thats a Dynamic Range thing. A Loudness, Energy, Excitement thing.
And, I think it speaks to how "Fast" the Preamp is, which translates to How much Transient does it retain and amplify?
If the Microphone transduced the Acoustic energy into Analog audio, it will have a specific ADSR envelope. When you gain that low level signal up to Line level, does it retain that same shape, or is it so slow that it rounds off the transient?
And I wonder this objectively, rounding off Transients is a big part of what we Do, on purpose. But if its happening right at the Mic, before we even hear the signal, how do you get it back? If you decide you want sharper Transients?
So am crazy in asking: might the most important factor in a Preamp be its speed?
Given that we can easily change frequencies, add harmonics, reduce Dynamic Range, and soften Transients later.
B) You were quite conservative in the levels you hit the Preamps with. In order for them to reveal thier true "Character" (aka how they distort), i think you wanna Push Em a bit more, maybe in multiple 1dB steps for a test, and see what they give you when you touch the ceiling.
That's what I've always done, mainly to reveal the character differences between pieces of gear, and was my first red-flag.
But then I'm super glad you didn't, because it made me think about A) Speed and Transients, which I probably wouldn't have focused on if I were thinking about Saturation and Distortion.
I hope that made sense to somebody out there.
But Thank You again Brotha for doing these videos, and keep em coming.
I know! This is something that really blew my mind but I have to really spend some time with and then figure out how to make a video that would be interesting to more than 6 people on planet earth lol.
@@AndrewMasters You assume I'm on Earth?
Huh!
This is very awesome here. Makes me think of a term in (I guess?)hifi called damping factor; stereo amps are rated (in some cases) in such a way: how fast or slow it controls the transducer in stopping its movement. So not the transients itself but release and sustain say w low frequency content how defined vs boomy, as I gather it. But this seems only half the envelope in regard to speed as you mention. If preamps had ratings of transients and damping (speed? Which is still vague ish), I think that would really get us somewhere as to what preamps offer per circuit design .
Yiu are right changing that characteristic later isn’t really a thing exactly so, awesome points to contemplate. And if you do level match you’re masking the transients to some amount if I am following correctly but I am no expert - please expound if you’d care to on that or anything, thank you 😊
The keys on the Trident were freakin awesome! Could happily work with any of them. It would literally come down to wether I wanted something to sit IN the mix or on TOP. The Trident made the keys sit on top…the rest seated the keys in.
I guess I like the APIs. Damn. Thats so weird. I've always been so away from them but wow. I like them
bro same! I'm really loving them.. however i'm leaving that AEA on kick drum forever now.
Your ability to recognize these preamps is really impressive! It's an excellent video. But in your conclusion, although well argued, one essential parameter is missing: the guy who plays the instrument, i.e. the musician.
Very nice comparison. I think preamps matter when recording drums the most. In the other cases the difference is so subtle that you don't hear it in the mix. And keep in mind, when you mixing you allways dial in EQ to make room for instruments in frequency domains.
I only tried to guess which one was the API
Got it right every time 😂🎉 the snare gives it away
For me, API is a snare pre 100% Unbeatable… All that punch! 👌
starting to get crowded in there man! Going to need to go full commercial room soon.
It really shows that each pre-amp will handle different instruments, _differently._ As in, a pre you're familiar with might not react the way you might expect once you run an instrument into it which you typically don't or hadn't previously. In all, each of these four pre-amps fared well and despite slight differences between them on each source, they all sounded just about equally _"good"_ and it would just depend what particular "thing" you were after. Especially in regard to the drums where there seemed to be the widest sonic/tonal discrepancies imho.
What's funny to me is, the big brains on the Gear Space forums regularly _BASH_ the WA-73 pre-amp and the WA-73EQ channel strip. They say they are _nothing_ like real Neve's or BAE's and list all kinds of negative traits that I myself don't pick up on. Describing them as though they're in totally different _"sports,"_ never mind "leagues" or "ballparks." As if you were comparing roller-blades to super cars.
Now here's Andrew, who although is as humble of a guy as they come - but who _has_ worked in professional studios and on professional projects for a long time now. Including the great and fabled East West studio in L.A. where he used a myriad of Neve pre's on a day in, day out basis. Like for instance the pre's in East West's incredible Neve 8078 and 8028 consoles as well as having used a bunch of different Neve pre-amp/EQ modules (1073, 1081, 1084, 1028 etc. etc.) and here he is saying that the WA-73's are the most familiar to his ear _because_ of his time and experience using actual Neve pre-amps.
Trusting my own ears and having input like that from someone whom I _know_ has experience with the equipment is all I need to know that - first and foremost; the WA-73 and Warm stuff in general is gear that can get you great sounds and it is certainly fair to say that it captures an accurate representation of the general Neve sound. No matter what some supercilious, balky, derisive and condescending gaggle of blowhard boomer gear snobs say on a message board to discourage anyone who does not have access to a studio with a comprehensive selection of classic and/or exclusive gear. Or the budget to afford whatever vintage, rare, esoteric or otherwise super high end, chic piece of kit they're currently infatuated with and feeling all haughty about.
You’ve just neatly unravelled the entire audio industry and how it prays upon people
On drums one was had more prominent high frequency content, but otherwise the differences were crazy subtle in tone / texture/saturation.
Bass, warm was softer sounding. Would have liked keys to be played back alone bc I’m still thinking about the snare etc but impressive you can hear the differences. It’s unclear what clues gave it away for you however. Knowing what the differences were regarding output levels per pre is curious to know but hard to conclude if that should mean much. Awesome video I thank you !
You can download the raw files and compare them! Thanks for watching
I was able to get the APIs fairly easily (my shop is primarily API and Chandler TGs so very familiar with them), but was really (pleasantly!) surprised by those AEAs - wow?!
Same! Really impressed
Cant go wrong with any of these preamps. Pleasantly surprised by the Tridents.
Well i didnt try to guess the brands, but i did have a clear personal favorite in each round. As it turns out, it was the Warm Audio every time. It just sounds alive and very musical to me. I guess i will get me a WA-73eq soon. Thx for the shootout.
I only listened on a computer bluetooth speaker...but all sounded the same to me. I can't imagine the different preamps making any difference.
A Bluetooth computer speaker? Seriously, dude? 🙄
Well… you should be a drummer then 😮
@@CodyMWI 🤣🤣🤣
I was only able to pick the Trident out every time. I also got the APIs right on solo drums
Trident - widest sounding, API - fat juicy yet focused mids, AEA - relaxed and full, Warm - familiar, focused, comfy
I own two WA-Tb 12 black. Awwwwwwesome pre. Melcore api style
THE AEA FOR SNARE? Crazy. Insanely snappy
I’m not familiar with any of these preamps except the experience I’ve had with my 1073 UAD unison pre and I was stoked to have guessed the ‘neve’ sound based on that snare sound alone. When I heard Andrew say “yknow what, give me one click up on the snare” I knew exactly what he was listening for. That sweet sweet secret sauce haha. I feel less imposter syndrome now I can blind test the “neve sound”
Love that you didnt just solo each instrument for the comparisons and actually built a mix. Thats where the differences really added up.
TIGHT
95% of the time, it's the source -- the instrument, the written part, and the performance -- then the mic, etc. ... But quite astonishing how API added presence and clear dimension. It's the often-lauded "big" so many producers demand, particularly in modern mixes. The AEA was solid, fast, and silky on the top. I would have taken it second overall. Surprising were the comparative clinical take on the others, particularly the Trident. Nothing awful, mind you. Would love to have heard a classic 1081 (if only one more). Enjoyed this, nonetheless. Thanks!
Before viewing this video ...
Api is going to win on the kit 😮.
Let's see.
Great video Andrew.
For bass . The best bass tone I've ever gotten is through the geddy Lee sans amp.
Have a look into it . Pete thorn has a great video On it.
Ok honestly… I didn’t expect this but I preferred the Trident on drums (reminded me of Michael Jackson) and AEA on the full ensemble. Always a pleasure when you get to be surprised with a blind test, would also be interested to see this again but with some tube equipment. As someone who is just beginning to expand into more recording equipment for my home studio, I’ve been debating between tube vs solid state.
I have a whole bunch of bass preamps in my home studio. I thought I was nuts. I still might be! 😂
API on drums for me. Exceptional.
I would love to know which ones had the better crest value from the jump!
ayyy that’s my song at the beginning!
I’d want Wa73 on drums, API on bass and the AEA on keys
There are two sides of this. If all preamps are the same, then you know what to expect when mixing. I have a bunch, and try to cover many bases. I have API, Neve, Grace, Thermonic culture, Handwired jensen tranformers, Vipre, 286. Each have there place. The gotcha is, some mic's it matters more than others. If the mic has a tube or isolation transformer, the preamp will not matter as much vs a transformerless, ribbon, or moving coil that electrically ties to the preamp. Some mic's like specific preamps more than others. Test all your gear, some unexpected good match ups can be found. Rules of thumb I use. Tube mic, use solid state pre. Solid state mic, use a tube pre. Sometimes both are solid state if you want all the details and no color. Active base, use passive DI, Passive bass, use active DI. Coolest preamp out there, Coil CA70, gives you a desirable bloom, wish I had some. As you are starting out, a single high quality chain is much more important than a bunch of low quality. Only get into good preamps if your mic locker costs ten times more than the preamp. For the API flavor preamps, look at Revive audio, they have one with pads built in.
A good engineer could make a great record with any of these preamps. nice shootout!
Absolutely, thanks for watching!
Great experiment!, thanks for sharing
the only part I'm not sure about how it was executed is if you had just one performance (drums, Bass, Keys) for the 4 preams (at the same time) or you had different performance (drums, bass, keys) per preamp 🤔
They are separate takes, but performing the same part.
Got it, I listened some little performance differences but wasn't sure, thanks!@@AndrewMasters
I guessed it all wrong 😂😂
If I wanted to match loudness levels analytically I would have used a LUFS meter and tweaked clip gain until integrated and short-term levels matched.
I noticed the AEA and API were clipping an a few tracks but the Trident wasn't. I inserted a clipper on the Trident OH and Snare. That helped match it to the other two pres. Maybe if the direct out can be fed after the fader they could be clipped. love the APIs however those AEAs sound fantastic and the room sounds better through The AEA then the Trident. The Bass sounds great on the Trident. Not a fan of the Warm sound so no comment.
Well I'm a little surprised at the outcome of this. I wasn't trying to match the sound to the pre at all - only decide which one sounds best. To me, every single test I picked the Trident as the best sounding. 2nd best went back and forth between the API and the AEA. I don't know, the warm sounded the worst to me each time. I was listening on DT990s, and was mostly looking for "clarity" and which sound the most "detailed".
Are you running your daw out into the first two channels of your trident console?
AKA Fifty shades of eggshell
I could easily spot second drum recording throughout (the WA73), as the stereo image shifted quite obviously in that one...
I got api and trident correct. Because I've used both. Api has a certain punch thing. Trident is just bold. Other two was a guess and I was wrong. However I've recorded stuff on cheap presonus and behringer pres and high end avedis pres and no one is gona know the difference at the end of a mix down after it's been processed to hell and back.
Wow confirmed that I still love API. That trident makes that snare fat!
API for everything, but I liked they AEA for keys
For the next time can you do the interface preamps as well?
trident defiantly sounded better than i expected
My ears preferred the AEA PREAMPS.
I don't know if I'm deaf or it's just airpods pro2 issue but I honestly didn't hear any difference. Gotta repeat test on my studio monitors for sure. BTW Great video as usual!
You’ll need studio monitors to hear the difference
Welcome to the Matrix.
@@zuu1701so then, what’s the point? 🤷🏻♂️
@@officialWWM actually in just listened on my phone speakers. I can hear a huge difference
@@officialWWMyes that problematic.. hard to hear any difference without training your ears and getting a decent pair if headphones.
Apart from that, only you and audio professionals could hear the difference.. but it’s kinda like with resonant frequencies and sub bass etc.. regular people won’t notice difference but they’ll just feel that the sound is better.
the reason people buy these preamps is because theres that little something extra that differentiates professional sound
This was enlightening. I felt like the Trident had too much texture. Every edge was a little bit too sharp for my taste. I pretty much always preferred either the AEA or the 73 on every source, but I can see where that might differ based on how I want something to sit in a mix. But just going by overall level of deliciousness, AEA gets first, followed by WA73, then Trident, and shockingly to me API last. I expected API to by favourite on at least the drums, but it was my least favourite for drums. Gave me a minor existential crisis.
Don't all these differences vanish once you start equing in the mix?
Regarding playback mix of drums/bass/keys: Do each instrument end up as random per pre or are they organized so that same pre ends up on each?
Another video exploration perhaps but noticed one of your players commented here on this aspect.
The performances are grouped by preamp. Yeah that's a cool part of this - when you download the files you can mix and match them to see what feels good together.
ah i see. thanks i'll do it!@@AndrewMasters
Is the piano part the same performance, keyboard line out splitted into all the preamps at once? Maybe it’s because I’m on my phone with my airpods, maybe because it’s late and I’m tired, but the third keyboard recording (the one through AEA) almost gave me the impression of a different feel on the playing, I hear a significant difference on how the piano transients are sitting.
On drums and bass I hear some differences, but not as big (listening with airpods doesn’t help; also piano/synths are my instruments and, although I’m a bad player, it’s easier for me to spot small differences on instruments I’m more familiar with).
They’re the same “part” however they are all different takes.
Ok, Thank You; so I should listen again with studio monitors.
I own none of these but i did really good, I was so shocked
what do you think of neve 3115's andrew? theyre not class A so i never wanted to use them before but i have a chance to get a console with them for cheap.
What happened the studio tours?
Any new studio tours?
Next monday!
Andrew, any particular reason you didn't use integrated LUFS to do your loudness measuring and matching?
Good question, It's not an option on individual audio track meters. Since i'm mixing and matching 24 different audio tracks side by side, I need to see them in the audio track meters and frankly RMS makes the most sense.
@@AndrewMasters Got ya -thanks!
Hey bro do you really prefer the Barefoots over the Focals?
Dude. What song starts playing around 8:45? Gorgeous
Retour - Tony Anderson
8:32 i guess i have to buy the API
Wow. Not sure what to say
I liked the Trident and AEA most. The warm audio had a bit of low smid magic that I quite enjoyed too. The API came last in my books, which sucks, because I own a 3124 and nothing else (in the mic pre department)!
Anyone else hear that the sustain on the snare seemed a bit choked on the Warm pre's?
The only best way to test a preamp is to use it on vocals.
Plugins are pretty great lol
This video just proves that at the high end, the pre amp doesn’t matter and the average person won’t notice. You’re really just buying preamps at that price cuz you want to at this point. Other things matter more in the signal chain.
content is great as always! but man, go get some sleep! take care!
Wait, the preamps were reordered for each of the 3 rounds? So "Preamp #1" is a different preamp in each round? I'm lost - give me the EASY quiz.
haha yep
preferred API and Trident every time. The Warm consistently sounded like shit. The AEA was pretty good but a touch lifeless in comparison to API / Trident.
api all the way. always. there is a reason its the industry standart..
difference is inability of a performer to make an identical take...hence why sound on sound used a diskclavier in their long forgotten preamp shootout where nobody could tell the difference...better way to do this is to use solenoids on the kit etc., no human performers...
Given the fact that most of us don't have all 4 of these pre amps at our disposal, how can we possibly be expected to identify which is which? I can hear differences, but to brand...no way.
I don't assume anything about anyone watches the videos, I do the things that interest me and share them. There are no expectations, just gratitude for checking it out and hoping it brings some value.
I woke up on the wrong side of my rock this morning . Sorry about being harsh. Love your channel. 😊
I do it all the time, cheers.
Andrew
Wondering... Is there a difference between recording "going in" with UAD plugins (LA2A, Pultec, etc) vs inserting them on the channel on the raw track. I am totally in the box at this point, and I would be curious about that. Thx!
@@462dewey yes, you cannot undo or change it if you “commit” record through it in console. Main difference.
They all sound the same to me. Among all the things that affect the sound - player, instrument, room, microphone, mic placement, preamp, the choice of preamp makes the smallest difference. As long as the microphone's output is amplified up to line level with a high quality circuit, you're fine.
Grateful for you watching!
The drums sound great you're splitting hairs with these pre's though.
Got the API because I know them, and the Warm bc it sounded shitty. Ditch those bobo’s for some BAE.
S U P E R..............
Thanks for watching
It's all sound ...kind of the same 😢😅😢😅😮😊