I don't know what youtube algorithm thinks about that video but I would enjoy a three hour long lecture on a subject, no problem. And youtube algorithm loves long watch time
@@dittilio I like your thinking haha and I would love to make so much content but I'm a full time student! For now it will come in the form of these videos which I make during my breaks :) Really appreciate that people are liking my videos, thank you
The hell with the TH-cam algorithm! Please keep this information coming and feel free to spend more time describing the science behind this to your audience! Many of us would be happy to watch. I found this very interesting and thank you so much for making the video.
thank you! i agree, i’d also love to see a deeper dive into the optimization, the maths, and the tests that helped you get the design where it is today!
This is my favorite aspect of science, humans pushing our own creations so far we have to invent new ways of understanding different physical properties. Keep up the inspiring work! 💜
This has been an enjoyable series to follow. I like the new editing style on this video. Nice work and fun to see the progress ,experimentation, theory as well as the build. Thanks!
To reduce air drag, think about the surface of a golf ball and the physics behind surface irregularities and trapped vortices. Not so crucial at low speed, but quite effective at high speed.
About 37 years ago I took a flywheel out of a cassette player. It had a flywheel and an axle and the end of the axle was pointy (not round ;) ) I spun it up on my wooden table with a dremel and it lasted for about 12 minutes. I was astonished at that time how long it spun.
Thank you for sharing this with the world. It is ridiculous how little of this science is out there on the web. Your grasp of the complex physics behind a simple spinning top is phenomenal! Your top is so extremely engineered for performance but yet it looks so beautiful! Amazing achievement for someone who is so young. Every one of your tops is bespoke, unique and a massive improvement on the previous. You probably won't sell your record breakers. But can I commission you to make one?
Thank you! I am not opposed to selling record breakers - I recommend you join the mailing list at the bottom of my website (link in description) to hear more. I'm more opposed to selling my prototypes (The Mk.series) because they are not of sale quality in my opinion. Regarding commissions, I don't think I can offer this as there is a bit too much demand and I have too little time! There would be a monstrous wait list so for now I think auction is the fairest option. If you are especially motivated to make sure you get your hands on one, do feel free to get in touch privately - my email is jamessgoh@gmail.com
This science is in fact surprisingly complicated and partly unknown. I studied and explained part of it in my videos, here on TH-cam. James took from me many concepts and ideas.
Great video! I would honestly love a video where you dug into the maths even more. I think there is also an interesting relationship between friction causing the negative feedback loop to stabilize the top, and minimizing friction to make it last longer. Like you said, with a coefficient of friction of 0 tops wouldn’t work. How close to 0 can you get before the loss of stability causes more harm than the drag/friction slowing it down.
This is an interesting problem. From a practical standpoint, currently I'm working with mu=0.1 and this seems to be fine. I am doubtful that I will ever find a suitable contact point combination under 0.05 so hopefully I won't ever run into this issue! Having reread your comment I would also add that since the distance between the tip and centre of gravity is so small with my tops (rate of precession is linearly proportional to this), they do not precess much before standing upright. The precession stage lasts just a small fraction of the overall spin time so I would think even if this period is a bit longer due to reduced friction, the gains in the latter 95% of the spin would greatly make up for it.
Still - the algorithm made me discover this video. Yes - impressive physics experiments deserve a place high up in the list of things to watch, so here we go!
Liked, subscribed and notifications enabled. Great video, deep dive please! I would also love a video of you machining one of these tops - a collaboration video with a machining channel would also be cool!
Hey, great to see you back! I saw one of your prior videos and suggested using a silicone lubricant. I have mulling it over since and have an idea. Not sure how well it will work in theory but I want to throw it out there. I think you may find some success with layering lubricant. The idea I had was a super thin initial coating that isn't soluble by our other lubricant and is durable. Maybe some sort of wax or nasty forever chemical... Then buff it out to be super thin. Then use another lubricant on top. I remember hearing from my buddy while he was going though is mechanical undergrad that no matter how fast a fluid is moving in a pipe, there's always a static boundary layer that doesn't move. I think perhaps that initial wax or something would stay in contact with the platform and the other lubricant would be on top of that to create lubricant riding on top of lubricant.
Good to see you back as well! Layering lubricant is a cool idea, haven't considered it before. You certainly hit the nail on the head with the first layer being durable - my biggest concern with this plan would be that the heavy top's sharp tip would 'drill' quickly through the layer until it spins on bare metal. I think the film of lubricant under the tip which I currently use is really at the atomic scale, any excess is squeezed aside. One thing to consider which may make your idea more viable is if I used a larger ball tip instead of a sharp conical one. This would make the pressure under the tip smaller, perhaps enough to stay on the double lubricant layers, whilst sacrificing an increased contact patch. My initial reaction would be that the contact patch would have to be too much larger to be beneficial (if your layer idea brings mu from 0.1 to 0.01, can only afford to make the contact patch's radius 10 times bigger). Thanks for your comment!
@@hiper_tops Very good points. Probably would need to be something that would atomically bind to the platform and be close to molecularly thin. If it could have a strong bond to the material the platform is made out of, I would expect it to have the strength of the material the platform is made out of. Then perhaps the lubricant on top of that would be able to self heal as the center of the point of the top moves about. Something to chew on. May not be practical, but if you're able to get it to work, I would be very interested to see how it goes!
I'm currently a student! Just finished 2nd year studying general engineering at Cambridge :) I do talk about my tops on my CV but it seems jobs these days are more interested in my work experience haha
I'll throw a spanner into the works and ask a question that you may or may not have modelled/tested (and give a boost to the algorithm): How would heat effect the performance? Initially, I think heat would negatively affect the performance of the top since with added heat, things become softer, more gummy, sticky, even. Would cooling below ambient improve the characteristics of the top? I understand that you don't want the friction to be too low at the contact point, which I'd assume would be lower with a lower temperature, however I am unsure how sticky things would be, especially air for example, on the surface.
Thanks for the comment! It is a bit of a cheeky technique if you ask me but an interesting experiment I would like to conduct. Since air viscosity generally decreases with temperature, refrigerating the top before spinning and spinning in a colder climate should help.
@@hiper_tops oh undoubtedly it's cheating if you ask me, but it appeared that you ran a test in a vacuum chamber, presumably to measure the effects of your air on the duration of stability. I thought "hey, why not test all the variables by either running in a freezer, or chilling prior to spin and running a TEC on the base". An interesting experiment I don't think I've seen tested, but I've seen plenty test in a chamber before.
Would golf-ball-divots on the top reduce air drag? Is it worth going through the effort of adding divots, or is that obviated by using a vacuum chamber?
It would hurt the aerodynamics of a top. That technique works on golf balls because of the reduced low pressure zone behind the ball that "pulls" the ball backwards. This is achieved by the turbulent boundary layer it causes. This effect is not present here. All of the air resistance for a top is friction between the boundary layer and atmosphere. There is no vacuum zone to reduce.
@@rileyh4169 @rileyh4169 hit the nail on the head! Golf ball divots sacrifice some friction drag to greatly decrease pressure drag. However, spinning tops don't have pressure drag because they aren't moving through the air/ in wind. So divots would just increase the friction drag.
Not an official one but it is a subdivision I am also interested in. For long spinners in this style, check out pliertops and similar designs! (But stay tuned for my take on it in the future :)
What about a diamond pivot point and surface? Or making the gnuralling more aerodynamic (like a simple, shallow spiral)? Or using a variable density mass with dense metals like osmium? Graphite or molybdenum disulfide lubrication might also be beneficial. I curious about all of this.
@@rileyh4169 Excellent questions. Regarding the diamond tip, I don't think it would be a good idea - the tip should really be slightly softer than the base to avoid drilling into it and even if the base were diamond, if the tip was sharp diamond, it would drill. Possibly a diamond ball has potential but really the rate of drilling would just be a bit slower. For the diamond base, I think if it were monocrystaline and perfectly smooth (difficult to find and achieve... and VERY expensive), then this might be the perfect base. It would be as hard and wear resistant and anything. However, in any other circumstance (polycrystalline, not perfectly smooth) it would not work. This is because of the same reason cubic boron nitride bases don't work well - they are too abrasive! Tips become blunt over the course of a single spin. I hope one day I will be able to test mono diamond but for now, carbide is best. I used shallow knurling in many of my previous tops, but actually, it makes almost no difference. The radius of the top here is very small, so the gradient of air velocity is no where near as steep as at the flywheel. Hence I would say easily 99% of air drag is just from the flywheel. Regarding variable density, I am a bit skeptical. I believe the goal is to have the largest possible radius of gyration : radius ratio. Otherwise you sacrifice air drag unnecessarily. In practice, to get the appropriate total mass, you sacrifice this ratio a bit, but I think using less dense metals in between would make the problem worse. And yes Osmium would be idea, maybe when I'm a millionaire XD I use an oil lubricant which seems to add 5-10% to spin times, however I am open to experimenting with more. Once I have completed the Quasar series, this would be a good experiment to conduct. Finally, yes a mirror finish would be ideal, and I try to get as close as I can (see opening and closing shots). It is quite difficult to get tungsten shiny though! Perhaps because it is so hard.
@@hiper_tops Thanks SO MUCH for typing that out. I find this fascinating. The idea of "make a top spin longer" is dead simple, but once you really try, you're doing calculus in like, hour one lol. I would have never guessed that drilling occurs even with diamond. That's wild.
If the friction was low enough and the rate of precession slow enough (both theoretically possible), then I believe so! It might spiral upwards a bit but never reach fully upright before stopping.
The phisics of the rising top is not very simple and the rolling resistance has to be considered separately from the rotational sliding friction. But certainly, without frictions, the top would never rise, and would precess forever: th-cam.com/video/BBRNMmSwyQs/w-d-xo.html
Hello James, question for you! Looking at the smoke test you can see a very thin layer form around the main mass body of the smooth surfaces and guess this is the drag that slows down the top over time. I wonder if that surface was dimpled like a golf ball, if that would reduce the surface drag same way it does on a golf ball and help it spin longer?
Hi Dave! Well spotted, yes the top acts as a viscous centrifugal pump. Air is dragged out to the spot with the largest diameter and expelled in a disc. However, adding dimples here would increase the drag. Dimples help golf balls because although the viscous drag increases, the pressure drag decreases more. Spinning tops are stationary in air and so don’t experience pressure drag, so the dimples would just increase the viscous drag! Hope that made sense…
What are the limitations on what is an acceptable top? You could have a superconducting magnet levitate the top to eliminate the friction at the contact point. Or a cryogenic liquid slowly boiling off from inside the top to provide continuous force spinning.
Personally, it must have a positive COG to tip distance and perform without external aid or energy sources other than the initial rotational kinetic energy given by my fingers. It should operate in normal atmospheric conditions. However, guinness world records doesnt care as much about these specifics. Hence the record is 27 hours with a battery powered top. There is a record for a mechanical top at 1hr37min, however this was started with a string. Regarding your suggestions, I would quite like to try a levitating top at some point, however I'm not sure how soon this would be!
I don't want to be the person asking you to scatter all those secrets of non-analytical solutions.... But that's exactly what I'm asking you to do. Simplify the concepts, explains which variables are relevant, in which relation to one another and why, in a pretty video and I can guarantee you'll find people watching. For example: "BIG SPINNING TOP doesn't want you to know this one simple secret so you can turn for hours."
I appreciate your analysis! I could have made this video a lot more detailed and 'boring' for the average viewer but I wasn't sure how to put it in a video format (it's more suited to an academic paper style haha). Also, I'm a little wary about revealing too much before I get more IPR. Perhaps I'll pin a comment later with more details for those who are interested :)
This video looks like "How to Make the World's Longest-Spinning Top? - I won't tell you because of "IPR", haha!". TH-cam may like formulas and charts or may not, it is hard to say, but lots of people will be grateful for such content anyway.
I note your making the top as smooth as possible (circa 2:43). But it was discovered in the mid 1800s that a beaten up gold ball went further than a smooth one, leading in 1908 to the dimpled ball. And the fastest swimming outfits (and cycling time trial clothes) are carefully textured. A possible way forward for the spinning top?
Would including some sort of spring between the tip and the main body even out the peak force on the tip of the top? I think of it like an object being dragged across a washboard. Just going over each (microscopic) ridge would be way less efficient than if you pushed back on the slope on the downhill side. Idk if that makes any sense. You might take more in losses in the spring’s heating but idk.
Interesting, I don't think there would be much benefit from the spring in my case because the bases I spin on are very smooth compared to a washboard. Aside from the energy dissipated in the spring, I would be concerned about imbalance and the rigidity of the top.
Do you use a heavier metal for the ring and a lighter metal for the inside of the top? The middle part should be empty, just two sheets of metal to reduce weight, just like a plane wing.
You’re correct, currently I use a dense tungsten copper alloy for the flywheel and aluminium in the core. I could potentially push this to be pure tungsten and magnesium but they are difficult and dangerous to machine. Regarding the 2 sheet idea, I tried something similar with Mk.19 where the top sheet was cling film however I struggled to get it aero enough. If I had the manufacturing tech, your idea may be a bit superior.
Why is a sharpened or conical tip optimal? If we are talking about a top made of a hard material spinning on a flat or almost flat hard surface, it seems to me that the tip of the top could be spherical or close to spherical, and the point of contact with the flat surface would still be very small. To be more specific, I am imagining something like a stainless steel ball bearing in the tip of the top, and the flat surface would be stainless steel.
Ball tips are a good option for light tops, however for such heavy tops as mine, lubricant is a significant factor. Spike tips experience less fluid drag from lubricant compared to ball tips, so they become the better option. If I use a small enough ball, it approximates a sharp tip a bit better (see Mk.20). Also, I use materials much harder than stainless to reduce wear
@@hiper_tops Have you experimented with increasing or decreasing the space between the bottom of the top and the base or surface the top is supported by? I am wondering whether drag is increased or decreased based on the spacing.
did you tried soaking your fingers in water for 5 minutes before launching it? greatly increas finger grip, I bet you could have enough grip to try launching it from a polished surface supressing the need for build in grip in the spining-top upper part !?
I havent tried the pruned fingers technique haha, but I believe similar results may come from rubbing my fingers with garlic or another grip enhancing thing. However, I still think knurling is the way to go. My most recent top is very similar to Mk.22 but with better knurling, and this difference alone seems to have quite a significant benefit when it comes to starting speed!
haaaaa, I see : ) can I try a "the more it as speed, the faster it loses it"? hahaha but yeah, I was trying to figure out how you could possibly increase friction between your fingers and the spinning top axle, without increasing air drag. Mmmmm anyway love your videos, spining tops are odly satisfying looking forward to it
Not quite sure what the rules are, but would a lowfriction bearing between the tip and the body be beneficial? It would reduce the tip speed for lower friction, but would also add another point of friction. If the relation between rotational speed and friction is squared it should be beneficial. Right?
This is an interesting idea I heard once before, and yes I think theoretically with near perfectly frictionless bearings it would be beneficial. However in practice, I don’t know think the bearing wouldn’t spin, there is too little breaking torque from the tip to cause it. I believe billet spin made a top like this, do have a look!
Is there a term for an inverted top? I created one when I was in middle school and it balances atop a pen and is stable there once spun...it spins for minutes on a single spin effortlessly
Thank you! The cost varies with each top. For context, Quasar 1 sold for GBP 1001 and Quasar 5 sold for GBP 500. So that is the range. Email me at hiperspinningtops@gmail.com if you want more details on what’s available:)
I win. Hi there. It probably shouldn't be the mark 23, or even what your next iteration actually is, however, don'tchano? As an object becomes more condensed by pulling in its outer surface it's rotational energy increases? A top which flares while spinning up and tightens while spinning down will constantly be supplied with new thrust. Thrust can be transformed into potential energy through dispersion where elasticity redirects momentum away from the center while reducing rotational momentum along the edge, the effect is a net increase in accumulated rotational energy and momentum along the edge while spinning down which decreases in magnitude over the length of the contraction until a point when suddenly it becomes so tight even small contractions seem to restore more energy. In fact one of these days gyroscopes will actually fly with principles like this.
I’m not sure I quite understand your idea. It sounds like the top would store some gravitational potential energy which would be transferred to rotational kinetic energy during the spin. I have actually designed a top to do this in the past but didn’t make it due to the manufacturing complexity. It is technically against the “rules” I follow (no moving parts and no energy stores other than the original rke) but would be a fun experiment. I might try it in the future so stay tuned :)
Love the video, but I do have to say that optimizing has to be my least favorite thing when making or doing things. I just want things to work and to be done with it.
This would spin for around 1hr 45min in a vacuum. However it is not designed to spin in this environment. Eventually I’ll make a top designed for this and it would spin for much much longer!
I’ve been wondering for a while if having a bunch of dimples like a golf ball on your top would reduce its drag and help it spin for longer. What do y’all think?
That of the dimples like in golf balls seems the most common suggestion. It doesn't work anyway, the speed in spin tops is too slow and the air flow is laminar, not turbulent, as it would be needed. Apart from the factr that the geometry of the air flows in spin tops aand in golf balls are totally different.
Thanks :) I actually found an interesting problem with the dremel, above a certain rpm the top becomes unstable! It hula hoops more and more, spiralling to the edge of the base and if left alone, it will fall off (scary with such big tops, a lot of energy). The rpm at which this happens varies depending on how well the top is balanced and how sharp the tip is. So I haven't done any full-length spins with the dremel. However, I will conduct more experiments to study the period of slowing down to the rpms I usually start at.
@@hiper_tops , yes, I understand. I was curious about the smoke too, did you refrigerate it or it goes downwards just because it is sucked down by the movement of the top ?
I asked it becuse some cool visual effects can be made with cold smoke, which I wanted to use in one of my future videos, so, if you made it, I would have liked to know how. But it is not that important, eh...
On this amazing internet, there is a community for everything! The spinning top science nerds like myself hang out on an ancient forum: www.ta0.com/forum/index.php/board,8.0.html
Could magnetic levitation be a feasible method to increase the performance? It probably would count as cheating in the context of world records, wouldn't it?
Yes it wouldn’t qualify as a spinning top but using magnets to reduce/eliminate the apparent weight and thus tip friction could vastly improve spin times.
@@hiper_tops well yeah, on devices that support hdr it looks terrible for my taste, it turns brightness to maximum to show full range, and my usual brightness settings are below middle so its painfully bright
Ngl, I was licking my lips at the thought of a possible analytical solution for the optimization problem, but disappointed to find out that it's not possible.
This would be more noticeable if it were a gyroscope ie the top of the stem was also constrained. However in our case the spinning top is able to right itself
Record is now 27 hours I believe! However it uses a battery and internal powered flywheel to keep going. I wish there was another catagory for hand spun mechanical tops like mine, but alas Guinness isn’t on board!
I don't know what youtube algorithm thinks about that video but I would enjoy a three hour long lecture on a subject, no problem. And youtube algorithm loves long watch time
I vote for a 3 hour playlist of TH-cam optimised length videos on the topic so he can get the view boost etc, and we get the awesome content.
@@dittilio I like your thinking haha and I would love to make so much content but I'm a full time student! For now it will come in the form of these videos which I make during my breaks :) Really appreciate that people are liking my videos, thank you
The hell with the TH-cam algorithm! Please keep this information coming and feel free to spend more time describing the science behind this to your audience! Many of us would be happy to watch. I found this very interesting and thank you so much for making the video.
Noted! Thank you :)
This is what the algorithm likes with the right title and thumbnail.
I try my best! It is frustrating that a title and thumbnail is what makes or breaks a video.
thank you! i agree, i’d also love to see a deeper dive into the optimization, the maths, and the tests that helped you get the design where it is today!
Yes, I'm living in the algorithm hell as well, but really enjoyed this explanation and demonstration. Well done. Carry on.
Thank you :)
Yep, I’d love a huge documentary on your work. Super interesting stuff!
This is my favorite aspect of science, humans pushing our own creations so far we have to invent new ways of understanding different physical properties. Keep up the inspiring work! 💜
This is exactly what the algorithm loves.
Just discovered your channel. Fascinating stuff.
7 months later and youtube brought me back!!
Apologies for the delay! Turns out engineering degrees require quite a lot of focus XD
No apologies needed, I enjoy your videos whenever you release them!
This has been an enjoyable series to follow. I like the new editing style on this video. Nice work and fun to see the progress ,experimentation, theory as well as the build. Thanks!
I never knew I wanted to know this much about tops but here I am!
This is so very exciting. I am looking forward to more top guy videos. More toptimization videos are something I would like to see in the future.
Toptimization ... I love it!
To reduce air drag, think about the surface of a golf ball and the physics behind surface irregularities and trapped vortices. Not so crucial at low speed, but quite effective at high speed.
About 37 years ago I took a flywheel out of a cassette player. It had a flywheel and an axle and the end of the axle was pointy (not round ;) ) I spun it up on my wooden table with a dremel and it lasted for about 12 minutes. I was astonished at that time how long it spun.
On a wooden table?! Very impressive, I suppose it was light enough not to drill. You can get surprisingly long spin times with light tops
@@hiper_tops little hard to remember but at least it was that hard white Ikea thing. So I guess it did not drill.
Thank you for sharing this with the world. It is ridiculous how little of this science is out there on the web. Your grasp of the complex physics behind a simple spinning top is phenomenal! Your top is so extremely engineered for performance but yet it looks so beautiful! Amazing achievement for someone who is so young. Every one of your tops is bespoke, unique and a massive improvement on the previous. You probably won't sell your record breakers. But can I commission you to make one?
Thank you! I am not opposed to selling record breakers - I recommend you join the mailing list at the bottom of my website (link in description) to hear more. I'm more opposed to selling my prototypes (The Mk.series) because they are not of sale quality in my opinion. Regarding commissions, I don't think I can offer this as there is a bit too much demand and I have too little time! There would be a monstrous wait list so for now I think auction is the fairest option. If you are especially motivated to make sure you get your hands on one, do feel free to get in touch privately - my email is jamessgoh@gmail.com
This science is in fact surprisingly complicated and partly unknown. I studied and explained part of it in my videos, here on TH-cam. James took from me many concepts and ideas.
Great video! I would honestly love a video where you dug into the maths even more. I think there is also an interesting relationship between friction causing the negative feedback loop to stabilize the top, and minimizing friction to make it last longer. Like you said, with a coefficient of friction of 0 tops wouldn’t work. How close to 0 can you get before the loss of stability causes more harm than the drag/friction slowing it down.
This is an interesting problem. From a practical standpoint, currently I'm working with mu=0.1 and this seems to be fine. I am doubtful that I will ever find a suitable contact point combination under 0.05 so hopefully I won't ever run into this issue!
Having reread your comment I would also add that since the distance between the tip and centre of gravity is so small with my tops (rate of precession is linearly proportional to this), they do not precess much before standing upright. The precession stage lasts just a small fraction of the overall spin time so I would think even if this period is a bit longer due to reduced friction, the gains in the latter 95% of the spin would greatly make up for it.
It would work even without friction, just the top would not rise, it would precess forever: th-cam.com/video/BBRNMmSwyQs/w-d-xo.html
Commenting for the algorithm and the cool video
I appreciate it :)
Wow this was so more complex than I would've guessed.
Loved it!
Being a science lover this is up there with the best!
Thank you.
Thank you very much :)
The algorithm sends me the top videos.
hahaha
man i really love your videos!
Amazing work
Whoa been a while since I’ve seen hdr content. Cool!
Still - the algorithm made me discover this video.
Yes - impressive physics experiments deserve a place high up in the list of things to watch, so here we go!
Liked, subscribed and notifications enabled. Great video, deep dive please!
I would also love a video of you machining one of these tops - a collaboration video with a machining channel would also be cool!
Hey, great to see you back! I saw one of your prior videos and suggested using a silicone lubricant. I have mulling it over since and have an idea. Not sure how well it will work in theory but I want to throw it out there. I think you may find some success with layering lubricant. The idea I had was a super thin initial coating that isn't soluble by our other lubricant and is durable. Maybe some sort of wax or nasty forever chemical... Then buff it out to be super thin. Then use another lubricant on top. I remember hearing from my buddy while he was going though is mechanical undergrad that no matter how fast a fluid is moving in a pipe, there's always a static boundary layer that doesn't move. I think perhaps that initial wax or something would stay in contact with the platform and the other lubricant would be on top of that to create lubricant riding on top of lubricant.
Good to see you back as well! Layering lubricant is a cool idea, haven't considered it before. You certainly hit the nail on the head with the first layer being durable - my biggest concern with this plan would be that the heavy top's sharp tip would 'drill' quickly through the layer until it spins on bare metal. I think the film of lubricant under the tip which I currently use is really at the atomic scale, any excess is squeezed aside.
One thing to consider which may make your idea more viable is if I used a larger ball tip instead of a sharp conical one. This would make the pressure under the tip smaller, perhaps enough to stay on the double lubricant layers, whilst sacrificing an increased contact patch. My initial reaction would be that the contact patch would have to be too much larger to be beneficial (if your layer idea brings mu from 0.1 to 0.01, can only afford to make the contact patch's radius 10 times bigger). Thanks for your comment!
@@hiper_tops Very good points. Probably would need to be something that would atomically bind to the platform and be close to molecularly thin. If it could have a strong bond to the material the platform is made out of, I would expect it to have the strength of the material the platform is made out of. Then perhaps the lubricant on top of that would be able to self heal as the center of the point of the top moves about. Something to chew on. May not be practical, but if you're able to get it to work, I would be very interested to see how it goes!
Looking forward to where this leads!
I knew spinning tops were deceptively complex, but... damn!
Excellent
Evidently the TH-cam algorithm has blessed you this day
Amen!
what's your main occupation? to me eyes such a project would shine on any CV
I'm currently a student! Just finished 2nd year studying general engineering at Cambridge :) I do talk about my tops on my CV but it seems jobs these days are more interested in my work experience haha
I'll throw a spanner into the works and ask a question that you may or may not have modelled/tested (and give a boost to the algorithm):
How would heat effect the performance?
Initially, I think heat would negatively affect the performance of the top since with added heat, things become softer, more gummy, sticky, even. Would cooling below ambient improve the characteristics of the top? I understand that you don't want the friction to be too low at the contact point, which I'd assume would be lower with a lower temperature, however I am unsure how sticky things would be, especially air for example, on the surface.
Thanks for the comment! It is a bit of a cheeky technique if you ask me but an interesting experiment I would like to conduct. Since air viscosity generally decreases with temperature, refrigerating the top before spinning and spinning in a colder climate should help.
@@hiper_tops oh undoubtedly it's cheating if you ask me, but it appeared that you ran a test in a vacuum chamber, presumably to measure the effects of your air on the duration of stability. I thought "hey, why not test all the variables by either running in a freezer, or chilling prior to spin and running a TEC on the base".
An interesting experiment I don't think I've seen tested, but I've seen plenty test in a chamber before.
We need more top scientists working on this.
Would golf-ball-divots on the top reduce air drag?
Is it worth going through the effort of adding divots, or is that obviated by using a vacuum chamber?
It would hurt the aerodynamics of a top. That technique works on golf balls because of the reduced low pressure zone behind the ball that "pulls" the ball backwards. This is achieved by the turbulent boundary layer it causes. This effect is not present here. All of the air resistance for a top is friction between the boundary layer and atmosphere. There is no vacuum zone to reduce.
@@rileyh4169 @rileyh4169 hit the nail on the head! Golf ball divots sacrifice some friction drag to greatly decrease pressure drag. However, spinning tops don't have pressure drag because they aren't moving through the air/ in wind. So divots would just increase the friction drag.
Most fearsome stamina type I've ever seen
The action at the tip is indeed very microscopic.
Is there a category where the point the top spins on is on the exterior of the body? Like, ones that would spin in flat surfaces?
Not an official one but it is a subdivision I am also interested in. For long spinners in this style, check out pliertops and similar designs! (But stay tuned for my take on it in the future :)
@@hiper_tops thanks. And yeah no, I'm subscribing cause this was such a cool video. Just would like to see what the tops I'm used to are capable of
I learnt more about Physics from this video than a lifetime of lectures. Bravo!
I waited for this video for so long... Nice one as usual, but i would like a more in-depth video with proces models explanation
What about a diamond pivot point and surface? Or making the gnuralling more aerodynamic (like a simple, shallow spiral)? Or using a variable density mass with dense metals like osmium? Graphite or molybdenum disulfide lubrication might also be beneficial. I curious about all of this.
Or polishing the top to a mirror finish.
@@rileyh4169 Excellent questions.
Regarding the diamond tip, I don't think it would be a good idea - the tip should really be slightly softer than the base to avoid drilling into it and even if the base were diamond, if the tip was sharp diamond, it would drill. Possibly a diamond ball has potential but really the rate of drilling would just be a bit slower.
For the diamond base, I think if it were monocrystaline and perfectly smooth (difficult to find and achieve... and VERY expensive), then this might be the perfect base. It would be as hard and wear resistant and anything. However, in any other circumstance (polycrystalline, not perfectly smooth) it would not work. This is because of the same reason cubic boron nitride bases don't work well - they are too abrasive! Tips become blunt over the course of a single spin. I hope one day I will be able to test mono diamond but for now, carbide is best.
I used shallow knurling in many of my previous tops, but actually, it makes almost no difference. The radius of the top here is very small, so the gradient of air velocity is no where near as steep as at the flywheel. Hence I would say easily 99% of air drag is just from the flywheel.
Regarding variable density, I am a bit skeptical. I believe the goal is to have the largest possible radius of gyration : radius ratio. Otherwise you sacrifice air drag unnecessarily. In practice, to get the appropriate total mass, you sacrifice this ratio a bit, but I think using less dense metals in between would make the problem worse. And yes Osmium would be idea, maybe when I'm a millionaire XD
I use an oil lubricant which seems to add 5-10% to spin times, however I am open to experimenting with more. Once I have completed the Quasar series, this would be a good experiment to conduct.
Finally, yes a mirror finish would be ideal, and I try to get as close as I can (see opening and closing shots). It is quite difficult to get tungsten shiny though! Perhaps because it is so hard.
@@hiper_tops Thanks SO MUCH for typing that out. I find this fascinating. The idea of "make a top spin longer" is dead simple, but once you really try, you're doing calculus in like, hour one lol. I would have never guessed that drilling occurs even with diamond. That's wild.
very cool
So if you spin a precessing top on a very low friction surface, it may never stabilize?
If the friction was low enough and the rate of precession slow enough (both theoretically possible), then I believe so! It might spiral upwards a bit but never reach fully upright before stopping.
The phisics of the rising top is not very simple and the rolling resistance has to be considered separately from the rotational sliding friction. But certainly, without frictions, the top would never rise, and would precess forever: th-cam.com/video/BBRNMmSwyQs/w-d-xo.html
This was fascinating!
Hello James, question for you! Looking at the smoke test you can see a very thin layer form around the main mass body of the smooth surfaces and guess this is the drag that slows down the top over time. I wonder if that surface was dimpled like a golf ball, if that would reduce the surface drag same way it does on a golf ball and help it spin longer?
Hi Dave! Well spotted, yes the top acts as a viscous centrifugal pump. Air is dragged out to the spot with the largest diameter and expelled in a disc. However, adding dimples here would increase the drag. Dimples help golf balls because although the viscous drag increases, the pressure drag decreases more. Spinning tops are stationary in air and so don’t experience pressure drag, so the dimples would just increase the viscous drag! Hope that made sense…
@@hiper_tops Thanks for the explanation! Keep on spinning 😀
What are the limitations on what is an acceptable top?
You could have a superconducting magnet levitate the top to eliminate the friction at the contact point.
Or a cryogenic liquid slowly boiling off from inside the top to provide continuous force spinning.
Personally, it must have a positive COG to tip distance and perform without external aid or energy sources other than the initial rotational kinetic energy given by my fingers. It should operate in normal atmospheric conditions. However, guinness world records doesnt care as much about these specifics. Hence the record is 27 hours with a battery powered top. There is a record for a mechanical top at 1hr37min, however this was started with a string. Regarding your suggestions, I would quite like to try a levitating top at some point, however I'm not sure how soon this would be!
I don't want to be the person asking you to scatter all those secrets of non-analytical solutions....
But that's exactly what I'm asking you to do.
Simplify the concepts, explains which variables are relevant, in which relation to one another and why, in a pretty video and I can guarantee you'll find people watching.
For example: "BIG SPINNING TOP doesn't want you to know this one simple secret so you can turn for hours."
I appreciate your analysis! I could have made this video a lot more detailed and 'boring' for the average viewer but I wasn't sure how to put it in a video format (it's more suited to an academic paper style haha). Also, I'm a little wary about revealing too much before I get more IPR. Perhaps I'll pin a comment later with more details for those who are interested :)
This video looks like "How to Make the World's Longest-Spinning Top? - I won't tell you because of "IPR", haha!".
TH-cam may like formulas and charts or may not, it is hard to say, but lots of people will be grateful for such content anyway.
I note your making the top as smooth as possible (circa 2:43).
But it was discovered in the mid 1800s that a beaten up gold ball went further than a smooth one, leading in 1908 to the dimpled ball.
And the fastest swimming outfits (and cycling time trial clothes) are carefully textured.
A possible way forward for the spinning top?
Hello! For this application dimples are counterproductive. Check out the discussions in the comments under my video on Mk.21 for more info :)
Full series plz
Theres more practical info in my earlier vids :) But yes more vids will come!
Would including some sort of spring between the tip and the main body even out the peak force on the tip of the top? I think of it like an object being dragged across a washboard. Just going over each (microscopic) ridge would be way less efficient than if you pushed back on the slope on the downhill side. Idk if that makes any sense. You might take more in losses in the spring’s heating but idk.
Interesting, I don't think there would be much benefit from the spring in my case because the bases I spin on are very smooth compared to a washboard. Aside from the energy dissipated in the spring, I would be concerned about imbalance and the rigidity of the top.
Do you use a heavier metal for the ring and a lighter metal for the inside of the top?
The middle part should be empty, just two sheets of metal to reduce weight, just like a plane wing.
You’re correct, currently I use a dense tungsten copper alloy for the flywheel and aluminium in the core. I could potentially push this to be pure tungsten and magnesium but they are difficult and dangerous to machine. Regarding the 2 sheet idea, I tried something similar with Mk.19 where the top sheet was cling film however I struggled to get it aero enough. If I had the manufacturing tech, your idea may be a bit superior.
Why is a sharpened or conical tip optimal?
If we are talking about a top made of a hard material spinning on a flat or almost flat hard surface, it seems to me that the tip of the top could be spherical or close to spherical, and the point of contact with the flat surface would still be very small.
To be more specific, I am imagining something like a stainless steel ball bearing in the tip of the top, and the flat surface would be stainless steel.
Ball tips are a good option for light tops, however for such heavy tops as mine, lubricant is a significant factor. Spike tips experience less fluid drag from lubricant compared to ball tips, so they become the better option. If I use a small enough ball, it approximates a sharp tip a bit better (see Mk.20). Also, I use materials much harder than stainless to reduce wear
@@hiper_tops Have you experimented with increasing or decreasing the space between the bottom of the top and the base or surface the top is supported by?
I am wondering whether drag is increased or decreased based on the spacing.
did you tried soaking your fingers in water for 5 minutes before launching it?
greatly increas finger grip, I bet you could have enough grip to try launching it from a polished surface
supressing the need for build in grip in the spining-top upper part !?
I havent tried the pruned fingers technique haha, but I believe similar results may come from rubbing my fingers with garlic or another grip enhancing thing. However, I still think knurling is the way to go. My most recent top is very similar to Mk.22 but with better knurling, and this difference alone seems to have quite a significant benefit when it comes to starting speed!
haaaaa, I see : )
can I try a "the more it as speed, the faster it loses it"?
hahaha
but yeah, I was trying to figure out how you could possibly increase friction between your fingers and the spinning top axle, without increasing air drag.
Mmmmm
anyway
love your videos, spining tops are odly satisfying
looking forward to it
Not quite sure what the rules are, but would a lowfriction bearing between the tip and the body be beneficial? It would reduce the tip speed for lower friction, but would also add another point of friction. If the relation between rotational speed and friction is squared it should be beneficial. Right?
This is an interesting idea I heard once before, and yes I think theoretically with near perfectly frictionless bearings it would be beneficial. However in practice, I don’t know think the bearing wouldn’t spin, there is too little breaking torque from the tip to cause it. I believe billet spin made a top like this, do have a look!
Is there a term for an inverted top? I created one when I was in middle school and it balances atop a pen and is stable there once spun...it spins for minutes on a single spin effortlessly
I’m actually not sure! Was the contact point of your top above or below the centre of gravity? Ie did it stay on the pen when it stopped spinning?
@@hiper_tops It stays on the pen
This is awesome. What will one of those bad boys cost me?
Thank you! The cost varies with each top. For context, Quasar 1 sold for GBP 1001 and Quasar 5 sold for GBP 500. So that is the range. Email me at hiperspinningtops@gmail.com if you want more details on what’s available:)
I win.
Hi there. It probably shouldn't be the mark 23, or even what your next iteration actually is, however, don'tchano? As an object becomes more condensed by pulling in its outer surface it's rotational energy increases? A top which flares while spinning up and tightens while spinning down will constantly be supplied with new thrust. Thrust can be transformed into potential energy through dispersion where elasticity redirects momentum away from the center while reducing rotational momentum along the edge, the effect is a net increase in accumulated rotational energy and momentum along the edge while spinning down which decreases in magnitude over the length of the contraction until a point when suddenly it becomes so tight even small contractions seem to restore more energy.
In fact one of these days gyroscopes will actually fly with principles like this.
I’m not sure I quite understand your idea. It sounds like the top would store some gravitational potential energy which would be transferred to rotational kinetic energy during the spin. I have actually designed a top to do this in the past but didn’t make it due to the manufacturing complexity. It is technically against the “rules” I follow (no moving parts and no energy stores other than the original rke) but would be a fun experiment. I might try it in the future so stay tuned :)
Love the video, but I do have to say that optimizing has to be my least favorite thing when making or doing things. I just want things to work and to be done with it.
Not for everyone haha, totally get you but I'm a bit crazy
I wonder if you could use specific polishing materials that are self-phobic or omni-phobic substances, for the contact point.
I'll look into it..
Love the video boosting the algorithm
The youtube algorithm LOVES people taking toy concepts to their logical maximum. I came here from a video of a guy making a supersonic nerf gun lol
I saw that video haha
How much longer does it spin when in a vacuum chamber?
This would spin for around 1hr 45min in a vacuum. However it is not designed to spin in this environment. Eventually I’ll make a top designed for this and it would spin for much much longer!
@@hiper_tops How does designing one for a vacuum differ from air? Would you add more mass to the outer ring to increase the moment of inertia?
I’ve been wondering for a while if having a bunch of dimples like a golf ball on your top would reduce its drag and help it spin for longer. What do y’all think?
That of the dimples like in golf balls seems the most common suggestion. It doesn't work anyway, the speed in spin tops is too slow and the air flow is laminar, not turbulent, as it would be needed. Apart from the factr that the geometry of the air flows in spin tops aand in golf balls are totally different.
@@iacoposimonelli7191 thanks!
algo comment!!! Really though, this is a really cool video
Thanks!
Have you considered using tungsten disulphide as a lubricant ?
I actually haven't but several comments have mentioned it so I think I'l get some to experiment with :)
mmmm physics
Your top will fall over as the earth rotates anyway so there's always a practical duration limit to it.
Obscure hobbies like this is why I pay my internet bill.
Nice video, it looks professional. How much long it spun your top with the Dremel ? I never tried it.
Thanks :) I actually found an interesting problem with the dremel, above a certain rpm the top becomes unstable! It hula hoops more and more, spiralling to the edge of the base and if left alone, it will fall off (scary with such big tops, a lot of energy). The rpm at which this happens varies depending on how well the top is balanced and how sharp the tip is. So I haven't done any full-length spins with the dremel. However, I will conduct more experiments to study the period of slowing down to the rpms I usually start at.
@@hiper_tops , yes, I understand. I was curious about the smoke too, did you refrigerate it or it goes downwards just because it is sucked down by the movement of the top ?
I asked it becuse some cool visual effects can be made with cold smoke, which I wanted to use in one of my future videos, so, if you made it, I would have liked to know how. But it is not that important, eh...
I’m not sure about the lubrication.
I too would like to do more experiments - i can confirm that what i'm using does help compared to nothing! about 5% longer spins :)
@@hiper_tops 5% that’s significant. In ball bearings this is not the case. But then they are rolling and your top isn’t. Interesting.
yo there are spinning top communities!?!? :O
On this amazing internet, there is a community for everything! The spinning top science nerds like myself hang out on an ancient forum: www.ta0.com/forum/index.php/board,8.0.html
@@hiper_tops nice! 👍
A comment to boost the algorithm
Thanks :)
Could magnetic levitation be a feasible method to increase the performance? It probably would count as cheating in the context of world records, wouldn't it?
Yes it wouldn’t qualify as a spinning top but using magnets to reduce/eliminate the apparent weight and thus tip friction could vastly improve spin times.
If you want to spin a top as fast as possible, you gotta spin it with compressed air. I exploded a fidget spinner once.
True haha, although in practice above a certain speed the top will lose stability and spiral off the base! (very scary, lots of energy)
Or you could get a magnetically levitating spinning top inside a vacuum chamber.
That wouldn’t be a spinning top anymore but it would certainly spin for a long time!
Please no hdr, why?
Does this mean high dynamic range? Apologies! Does it not show nicely on screen?
@@hiper_tops well yeah, on devices that support hdr it looks terrible for my taste, it turns brightness to maximum to show full range, and my usual brightness settings are below middle so its painfully bright
Ngl, I was licking my lips at the thought of a possible analytical solution for the optimization problem, but disappointed to find out that it's not possible.
I know I was hoping for one for years!
The rotation of Earth will affect the spinning top. It will be working against the start energy.
This would be more noticeable if it were a gyroscope ie the top of the stem was also constrained. However in our case the spinning top is able to right itself
:D
heres a comment
youtube algorithm isn't the only one that doesn't like it
Not for everyone I’m sure haha
sure wish i could turn off the blinding hdr feature of youtube
Ah interesting I'll try to avoid this in the future. Clips were filmed on iPhone so perhaps it is the default now
@@hiper_tops oh word, I thought you had to deliberately edit for hdr. but it's not your fault, it should be an option at playback time imo 👍
earth might be flat guys
You achieved over 1 hour but the world record is 7 hours, 1 minute, and 14 seconds?
Record is now 27 hours I believe! However it uses a battery and internal powered flywheel to keep going. I wish there was another catagory for hand spun mechanical tops like mine, but alas Guinness isn’t on board!