I honestly believe that as much as everyone wants to believe because of the pattern of just straight mid is not repairable I still think there’s hope for us yet
I think Marvel has a lot of haters right now and they cant mess around with another she hulk like show. cant make the fanbase the villians of your show then be surprised they dont show up for you.
I guess not, it's literally as easy as writing a female character that is established and is put through the same level of quality of a heroes journey as any of the other well established and liked characters in the MCU so that people actually care about the character rather than hearing a corporation desperately screaming from a rooftop that they are inclusive while failing to write a strong female character who is personable with realistic flaws and is actually a better person or at least a different person because of what happened during the film.
You could always criticize, its just before the fans were 90/10 for the MCU. So you can yell but they yell louder. Now its more like 60/40. So the critics voices are louder.
It's crazy how people defend stuff like movies and TV shows and even sports teams they like you aren't getting paid to do it so why do it for example I love the Guardians of the Galaxy movies but I wouldn't defend them especially if the criticism is valid
@@gerwaanhartfield7261Exactly. There’s nothing I’m going to defend tooth and nail that I didn’t create, I may debate but if the argument is valid then I’m not going to get upset
Something that I really dislike is how every character is the same person. They saw Tony was the quippy, witty guy and the most popular so they made everyone the quippy witty guy
Which made no sense. Tony worked because he was the quippy one, while everyone else was serious. They literally pulled a Syndrome and essentially made everyone Tony Stark, which ruined the appeal of his character
@@D3rpyD3su Should have kept just Tony and Peter as the quippy characters. The quips just worked with Tony because of RDJ and quips are a big part of Peter's personality.
I used to be excited for an X-Men reboot in the MCU. Now I’m afraid what they’d do to it & I hope the people in charge get replaced before they get around to it.
“Superhero Fatigue” is the dumbest thing i keep hearing from ppl sayin why ppl dont watch marvel anymore. If we had superhero fatigue then The Boys, Gen V, and Invincible wouldnt be as popular as they are. We’re fatigued for good stories, not cuz of superheroes in general
I think the funniest aspect of this whole situation is that in the 90s marvel flooded the market with half assed cash grabs and they went bankrupt. This lead them to sell the movies rights of a lot of characters to keep the lights on. And here we our now decades later and the MCU is literally makin the same mistake. Half assed cash grabs, movies and shows nobody asked for, and making folks think they need to consume every product that’s released or miss out on the next big event. History really does repeat itself lol
15:40 I don’t think “superhero fatigue” really even exists. If that were the case, then “The Batman” would’ve flopped. The Spiderverse movies would’ve also flopped. But they didn’t. I think it’s less Superhero Fatigue and more “bad writing fatigue”
No it does, just not for Batman, and Spider-Man, other heroes like every superman come and go in popularity but those two have always had star power even when no one cared about super heroes.
If it really existed, nobody would entertain themselves with Loki Season 2, Spiderman 2, My Hero Academia, One Punch Man, etc. Fatigue implies you are tired of the entire genre. These people use that as an excuse to complain about stuff they don't like, when in reality, they still like superheroes.
I blame a lot of this to Guardians brain rot. They saw those films do gang busters and thought "okay, so they'll just watch anything we make" without understanding why Guardians of the Galaxy worked so well. Like, it worked well because it was a good story that just never got the proper exposure. It was a hidden gem, similar to something like Medaka Box if we want to use Shonen Jump as an example. And then Captain Marvel happened and any pretense of "standards" went out the window.
Kind of like how in 2018 you couldn't critique the first Black Panther. Especially the 3rd act of that movie which was god awful. I'm black myself and got called the usual pejoratives just because I gave it a solid 6.5 instead of a 20/10. It was ridiculous. Fast forward to 2023 and I see Blerd sites openly saying that BP 2 was trash....I'm like...."WHAT??!!" Where were ya'll in 2018 with ya'll "objectivity"??!!
It’s so creepy to see all the MCU nuthugger movie critic channels hate on the MCU at the exact same time. As soon as the marvels came out it was free game. I know DAMN well that Thor 4 was WAY WORSE than The Marvels.
I don’t remember anybody defending the MCU by saying “It’s just for kids, bro” back in the early 2010s. I was a kid, and I still loved them. Now I’m a grown-ass man, and the movies and shows are considerably worse, and people are rolling out the “it’s for kids” defense? Something’s not right there.
The excuse "it's for kids" are just a trash excuse to cover the fact the media is trash. Kids can handle all sorts of stuff, but nah...let's dumb it all down. People are so politicized or desperately full of cope trying to make sense of trash stories as something good, see TLOU2.
This is weird … it’s ALWAYS been ok to criticize the MCU .. actors and directors and fans have been critiquing it since it first became big lol .. Martin Scorsese even criticized the mcu at a award show …. Just bc it was number 1 didn’t mean ppl couldn’t criticize it wtf
You could critique it but it wasn't taken seriously because of popularity bias. People wouldn't hunt you down like you're a mutant or anything but they'd laugh at you.
after watching Loki Season 2, I believe there's still hope hope for such recovery, that is but then sometimes I am reminded of unwanted stuff like Echo, Ironheart, Agatha, et cetera, whom the lot of us have yet to familiarize ourselves with and now we're getting a Season 2 of She-Hulk? that one damn show that put THE FINAL NAIL in the coffin? bruh
And as usual, the people who were ahead of the curve will never get the credit they deserve for being right and will probably still be treated like bad people for daring to be right before it was acceptable to do so.
I've always held my ground with bad media. I'm not a "turn off your brain and have fun" type of person. I value growth and intent above all things. If something doesn't work or is mediocre, it should be either fixed or thrown out. It's apalling how people have been conditioned to settle for mediocrity and downright terrible influences, especially when it comes to stories and characters that hold high cultural significance. I get that there are hit and miss moments. No one is perfect and everyone has different perspectives and tastes. But I personally would find it insulting and confusing if you told me you had stake on the menu, just for me to order it and be served a literal massive pile of shit for almost thirty dollars and be reprimanded and insulted for complaining.
I think you're overlooking at this like you can like bad movies and you should turn off your brain and everyone does that and what you mean by condition for mediocrity? You're not making sense here
"Turn your brain off and enjoy" doesn't mean you just blindly consoom movies no matter the quality, it's more of you acknowledge the deep flaws it may have and still try to derive enjoyment out of that. To extend the metaphor, you can be angry that you got served shit when you ordered steak, but you might just as well snap it and post on instagram for a shitpost. You can like a movie while admitting that it sucks.
I don’t have high preferences though I enjoy most movies and I just take some things in face value and for me to actually dislike a movie it would have to be something like the Barbie movie or maybe it’s because I’ve been more of a fan for Barbie than MCU I guess?
Even Iman Vellani who portayed Kamala Khan in both Ms. Marvel and The Marvels refers the MCU as earth 199999. Even Spider-Verse referred the MCU as earth 199999.
14:45 - This point made right here perfectly explains why I feel anime and manga is so much better than superhero comics and shows, as they remain consistent with character continuity. When you look up Goku, there will be only one Goku. When you look up Naruto, there will be only one Naruto. When you look up Luffy, there will be only one Luffy, rather than 4 or 5 different versions of that character with the same name. Sure, each of the characters I listed have had different forms, like Goku's Super Saiyan and Ultra Instinct forms, but Goku is still the same character from the original Dragon Ball 1984 manga, to the upcoming Dragon Ball DAIMA anime for Fall 2024. But when a western superhero gets a new form or power, they're usually introduced in a completely different universe, which is something that has really been bothering me a lot in the past few years.
@@amarvax3442 I mean, I get what you mean. It can be fine every now and then, but when superheroes have to rely on rebooting and reimagining characters and their universes over and over again, usually because the writers have written themselves into a corner, or because people are losing interest in these characters, it kinda dilutes the significance of the characters and their stories over time because you have to keep with so many different versions of the same characters.
Another big problem with the MCU is how it has crowded out other genre movies. The MCU is like a burger and fries and while burgers are good, you can't eat just that for every meal. The MCU basically forced everyone else to serve the same meal with only a few minor differences and variations in between. That was exactly what DCEU fans tried to push back against.
I remember getting into an argument with a dude on Twitter who said that the only reason I didn't like the MCU was because they were popular. Then he blocked me before I could reply. I wonder how he's doing now.
I don't think the problem with She Hulk was the self awareness or the calling out of certain critics. I just don't think it was funny. I think that the same themes and personality could've worked if the script was a bit better.
That and Jen thinking being catcalled is equivalent to fighting a universe ending super crisis. Being held captive on a planet and forced to participate in gladiator games to the death. Leading that planet in war. It’s hubris. Disney refuses to tell a story with women. In marvels zero conflict between any of the girls. The conflict between Ironman and Cap was essential to the MCU in the new MCU no one argues except men with women and they are always wrong 😂. This movie should have been put out on Disney channel for free the production value is so low effort.
Slightly unpopular opinion: I don't think the writing of the MCU was ever that strong. They just had the right idea with the right actors at the right time, and the charisma of their leads made up for a lot of otherwise pretty by-the-numbers stories. I mean, were any of the Thor movies really masterful story telling? Or even the team up movies? Personally, I don't think so. They were fun enough, yeah, but not exactly a masterclass in plot or character writing. The problem they have now is that their charismatic leads have now mostly gone and they're now trying to capture that lightning in a bottle a second time and are obviously failing at it. Personally, the only way I could get reinvested is if they abandoned this shared universe and just started creating stories without forever worrying about where it all fits in.
In fairness, Thor was one of the worst of the early and mainstay series in terms of storytelling. Thor's arc is that he is an arrogant, entitled, and bloodthirsty manchild who does an ethical near-180 because he saw a hot chic. Neither any experiences nor arguments are ever presented to justify his change in perspective or ethics; Loki is the only one who has a coherent arc at all beyond an unexplained women's smut plot beat. While Captain America was full of self-contradictions and Iron Man had plenty of issues, they at least had coherent narrative arcs.
Man, I've been Criticizing the MCU ONLINE when they did something stupid since the FIRST THOR movies. And where they are NOW. Many of us long time fans Saw this coming for a long time.
Ironically Thanos was right about shredding everything down to its last atom and start again cause what’s currently happening isn’t working anymore for most people.
It was always OK to criticize Marvel. The thing is, the movies were enjoyable and hype enough so we mostly ignored the evident flaws and had fun with them. Some people when criticing them were like: THEY ARE NOT GOOD, STOP HAVING FUN. I always compared them to having fast food, every once in a while you just want that Big Mac (an MCU movie) rather than a 3 michelin stars Rissotto (DUNE for example). Today, not only the quality became way worse, they are not even enjoyable so whats even the point?
I used to work with a guy who was a comics fan like me. During the original slate of Marvel movies, we both were really excited to see what was coming next. When I started to notice the changes the movies were going through, I wasn't that excited anymore. My co worker started calling me a hater and I'm just mad because women are in the movies. I tried to explain that it was because of bad writing not because of women. Hell, there have been plenty of action movies with great female characters. Ripley from Aliens comes to mind. Anyway, this guy starts posting on Facebook all of a sudden about Marvel "haters" and making indirect comments referencing our conversations. I stopped talking to the dude and we parted ways as enemies over a difference of opinion. Sad.
Looking back on it: Yeah the MCU has had a history of stinkers. I’ll admit tho, growing up with them does make me biased as hell lmao. I literally graduated the same year and month that endgame came out and it just felt very poetic.
You're correct once the money started rolling into the game industry, we got a massive influx of cash grab, cookie cutter games that diluted the market, Disney/Marvel are doing the same thing right now, cash grab, cookie cutter, formulaic "content" that has no real substance. Also I think it's having people at the top who don't know what they're doing or are disinterested, Kevin Feige might just not care as much as he once did, just like the writers of GoT, it happens sometimes and that could explain why the quality has dropped so much. In gaming once it became hugely profitable you started getting board members from Walmart, Banks, Car companies etc moving over into the gaming industry and implementing similar business practices which have lead to games taking a dive in quality. Next the talent they're hiring, evidently some of the writers, directors and show runners they're hiring don't have a clue what they're doing and should never have been trusted with such important IP's and you have to wonder why there seems to be so little oversight into the production of these films and shows. Lack of a cohesive plot, increased fragmentation into multiple series and shows makes it difficult to follow them all. Also it has to be said that the influence of the "message" and obvious agenda pushing of the MCU in recent times has lead to a dramatic decrease in the quality of the overall product
...this is COMPLETELY untrue. People have ALWAYS criticized _Thor: The Dark World_ (and even the first _Thor_ movie), _Ironman 2_ and _3, Age of Ultron,_ etc. Maybe the people in YOUR circle were like this, but I've met people in real life as well as seen entire threads and comment sections complaining about how BAD these particular films were. But I understand that you need a topic for a video so rock on, I guess. The more accurate thing to point out is how it's now "cool" to hate on Marvel. Aka you have dozens of videos _like THIS_ basically stating the obvious and acting like it's "brand new." 😕
Honestly Iron Man 2 is VERY underrated and not as bad as you MCU fanboys said it was. Also you MCU fanboys completely missed the point of this video, which was that people hot butthurt whenever you criticized or disliked the MCU in general back then. I'm sorry, but you're the very definition of a snowflake and a low IQ MCU fanboy.
What ultimately killed the MCU for me was how everything is just disconnected and pointless. Remember how in Wandavision there was all white Vision who just flew off and we've never seen him again? And then in Eternals, a giant being shows up towering over the entire Earth, combined with the one in the ocean, and nobody ever talks it about it? I thought those would be the new big bad. And what's going on with Shang Chi's rings at the end, that seemed important?! You could go on and on and on with this crap. The nail in the coffin for me was how the entire Spiderman multiverse shenanigans was a throwaway line in the next Dr. Strange. I was like okay they're not even going for the 'cinematic universe' anymore. The fun of the MCU for me was seeing how events would setup later events and people would speculate and whatever. It was FUN. It's not fun with what seems like isolated stories, cause they're all terrible stories (per critiques in this video). Everything after Endgame is just spin offs, Fraisers to the Cheers we liked. That was the end of the MCU story, and that's a good thing cause all stories need an ending.
Remember the old days when if you said something bad about MCU movies the entire fandom would eat you alive? Never thought i would see the day where MCU fans would agree that the MCU has become a bad franchise.
I criticized mcu starting with the first captain America movie. It's crazy out of 30+ movies maybe 5 of them are great and the rest are ok at best. So many stinkers in there
@@pain5744you do realize people still gave AOU and IM3 a benefit of the doubt right? Mayne you MCU fanboys who dedicate your lives to this stuff complained about them all the time, but casual audiences still liked them
when i watched the first avenger movie i pointed out to many friends of mine that during a serious conflict comedy will Affect the flow, But they are like thats what a good movie was about which could make it entertaining, well is it entertaining now???? people took cringe and made it comedy.....
Here's what pisses me off: I was reading Marvel comics in the 90's and early 2000's, when it was considered really uncool to do so. I was going to the comic conventions where only about 200 people would show up, most of them comic book vendors looking to sell or trade comics to each other. I was there when the only 'celebs' that came to these things were comic book artists and writers. Then the MCU blows up and all the jock assholes who are like the ones gave me shit for reading comics are telling me how cool they think these characters are! I'm like, 'Yeah, I know. I knew that back in 1994.' And now with Phase 4 being totally garbage, when I comment on that, a long-time comic fan who KNOWS what kind of amazing quality we used to get, I get called not only wrong, but racist or misogynistic! And by the people who didn't even know what the hell I was reading so long ago! It's always been tough being a comic book fan, and the current climate of the MCU is no different. Most of the content just plain sucks and it's totally okay to admit it.
Thank you! A lot of comic fans feel like you. One of the reasons why comic fans are now so upset is because Marvel and Disney decided they were going to put their agenda on our stuff when we were the ones that supported them when they were broke and now are calling us names for not liking their new trash. They catered to a bunch of less than casual fans who were on a bandwagon and it is now clear the bandwagon is empty but they are still trying desperately to appeal to an audience that does not exist or if it did, left. Part of the joy of the early movies was seeing characters comic book readers loved for years and we never thought we would see them done seriously. It was uncool to read them and people called comic book fans nerds, or worse. Now it is obvious they do not want to do that and want to pander to non fans, so they are no longer serious about their own fandom.
I still sorta hold this (very light, no hard feelings) grudge against some of my friends. I enjoyed the MCU! Phase 1-2, never missed a movie. One Phase 3 came in, I was getting fatigued, especially with Phase 4. I began to express my problems with the MCU, feelings there's far too much content, and I got discoursed into hell by my friends. Saying things like they need to make these many movies other wise it's take decades to tell the stories they want to tell, and so much more; this is great, that's great, a bit bumpy there but still good. I felt like an outsider now, I felt, maybe my inner boomer is showing and I'm problem. I turn around, blink, and now all of a sudden everyone is criticizing the MCU, even my friends. They now agree with the points I had issue with, but the part that bugs me the most is that they act like this is an opinion they've always had! And it's like WHAT THE FUCK. I had to argue that is now how things went.
No, you need to remain steadfast and remind them how things really went down! Don’t let their egos skate by and pretend it never happened. The preservation of truth is in your hands 🙌🏼
@@Anyox17 I appreciate the encouragement! And don't you worry, I am stubborn as hell. I get it, no one likes coming off as a fool, I know my friends sound bad here but they're great people. But don't worry, I'm not letting them forget whenever the topic of Marvel comes up. I don't want to come off as "UM ACTUALLY, I DIDN'T LIKE MARVEL FIRST" but I don't want them to forget that they were fast to change their tune.
I remember back then when Avenger ultron was released, my friend who was a big marvel fan invited me to watch the movie, i was a teenager back then, and i still remember i fucking felt asleep in the middle of the movie because of how fucking boring it was, but my friend called me basically stupid and normie just by falling sleep lol.
People always complained about the MCU. The difference is that now the movies are consistently bad, not excellent. Think of all the movies in the Infinity Saga and pick out the ones that were weakest. Thor Dark World, Captain Marvel, maybe Ironman 2? Point is, you can only think of a handful. Nowadays, the challenge is picking out the stuff that's actually pretty good: Guardians 3 comes to mind but that's really it. Opinions haven't changed, the quality of content produced by Marvel has.
it can be argued that T'Challa 2 is Azari from the comics/The Next Avengers, but that's normally with the inclusion of Storm. So it's still kinda shoehorned it in
Uhhhh Most of us said The Hulk was bad. When it came out. And the internet hated on The Dark World passionately. From the beginning it was fine to criticize. Ya know what's not ok? Saying anything good about anything in phase 4 or 5.
literallyyy. if I just say like x project was pretty good when the internet consensus is that it's bad, there will be a million people in my replies talking about how clearly I'm being payed or brainwashed or whatever
Can't say a thing when the masses are all high on mass hype, even when you're right. The MASSIVE irony remembering that one comic where Cap gives the speech about standing firm in your beliefs even if the entire world is against you, seeing that the brainless people who blindly consume are exactly what Cap is warning against. Oh well, MCU was fun while it lasted but it's time to move on
The Mcu: "She Hulk is just lafy hulk and we hate it! Why can't she be her own person!?" No that's unrealistic, would never happen. Real life: "Dude Kanye made Taylor famous cuz she a woman! She doesn't deserve her fame!!"
Nah, media literacy has been dead for a long time. The MCU was never high-quality in any way; it simply played on the power fantasy that many comic readers were drawn to, but Disney gave it wide appeal. The same things they did to make Phase 1 appealing to people are now being done for various demographics, but as a result of the demographic shift, people are seeing the same quality of writing through a new lens. Instead of using critical thinking skills to ask themselves, "Has this franchise always been this way, but my biases have prevented me from seeing it?" People went to extremes as always. They either meat rode like they were in Disney's will or something, or they reenact the Salem witch trials over every little thing (since that's what finding "wokeness" in anything actually is). I appreciate Marvel movies, and I enjoyed the TV series on Disney Plus because I asked a simple question. "Is this consistent with the character they've created thus far? And does this make sense in terms of the overall continuity they are creating?" I can like or adore something faulty or broken because I can either accept it for what it is and discuss how it could be improved (as this video does to some level) or go on to something else that will sustain me. The difficulty is that most individuals do not want to really interact with what they are seeing. They want to engage with what they *want* to see. I'd rather talk about what's wrong and what we both like. Then how criticizing the MCU normally descends over who meat rides for the comic versions hard enough. Basically, I think the only reason it's okay to criticize the MCU now is because most people don't have strong enough biases for these characters. Anyway, this long ass essay was simply me expressing my piece.
I remember people saying Thor the dark world, and Ironman 2 were pretty shit. Maybe it's the people you were surrounded by, but I always heard the criticism people had for the mcu. The difference is that the old mcu seemed to have learned from their mistakes, now they think they are to good to listen to criticism.
I went to go see TDW when it released that weekend. It just bored me. Prolly because I was a kid back then but still even now I remember the details and it never gives you a reason to rewatch it
im pretty sure when Age of ultron com out, plenty of people criticize it. same with Captain marvel and so on...im pretty sure there has always been criticism.
Bro THANK YOU FOR THIS. Oh my god I am also so happy you brought up the absurdity that is Thor Ragnarok. People would die on a hill about their love for the movie, but I ALWAYS detested how it was just a comedic mess, and I'm pretty sure that is exactly what people loved about it. People love comedy, and if it can make them laugh, then it was well worth it for them. However, I just... ugh, the freaking theme is Ragnarok man, why the heck did they treat it like some happy adventure?! At least back then, they hadn't desecrated Thor's character yet...
I never felt that it wasn't okay to criticize MCU back then. Before this horrendous Phase 4, we had terrible movies like Thor The Dark Word, Captain Marvel, Iron Man 3, and they were pretty much all criticized. But you know which other superhero movies have a lot of defenders? Zack Snyder ones. Nolan's TDK trilogy. Sam Raimi's Spiderman trilogy. Try to criticize some and you'll see.
I am a DC fan boy but I like Marvel and used to watch the MCU movies that appealed to me. I had been complaining about the formulaic writing of these movies since Phase 2 but got wrote off as a DC fan. I notice my Marvel friends are reeeeeal quiet now, though. 😂
I used to get very excited at the first mention of the next MCU movie to be released. And I would literally shake with anticipation while in the theater as a film was about to begin. Now I just don't care. I'm not rushing to the theater and I may watch the film once it is streaming when I get around to it. So that either means I've changed or the quality has decreased. In reality it may be a little of both, but I still love Marvel so I don't think it's me. I enjoyed listening to your thoughts on the matter.
I'm in the same boat. I think the quality has declined. But I think the bigger problem is it's stopped focusing on character. The Infinity Saga worked a lot like a TV show. Individual "episodes" might vary in quality, but you kept coming back because you loved the characters. Captain America was my favorite, and I was able to enjoy a new film that featured him every year or two. He had a core group of friends he interacted with, was characterized pretty consistently, and got a clear character arc. Most other OG Avengers were given similar treatment. Even Hawkeye appeared in 5 movies over 8 years and apart from his initial appearance in Thor, each one gave him a scene with Natasha, his most significant relationship. And when he was given a family in AOU, they were at least mentioned in all subsequent appearances. Compare to Post-Endgame MCU. What characters and relationships can you follow and be invested in? Most films are too overstuffed to have time for good character work. And more importantly, few characters make regular appearances. "Shang Chi" matched Phase 1 & 2 films like "Thor" in terms of quality. But it's been 2 years and he's not slated to appear in other movies anytime soon. There probably won't be a sequel until at least 2026. I can tell you, if there had been 5 years between TFA and TWS, I wouldn’t have become a Captain America fan. I would have lost interest. One-off appearances have been the trend for most Post-Endgame characters. And when characters do make multiple appearances, they are often written inconsistently. I liked Wanda in the Infinity Saga, but in MOM she's a completely different person with no real build up. I don't care about Doctor Strange at all, but for someone who seemed to take the responsibility of his powers and position very seriously before, in NWH he breaks the fabric of reality just to help Spiderman restore his secret identity. When you write characters to serve the plot instead of vice-versa, the viewer stops caring about the characters.
One thing I think you missed about dismissing things as "kid's stuff" is that the best media for children *took children seriously.*. I'll use an example from television: the Sesame Street episode "I'll miss you, Mr. Hooper". CTW decided to deal with the death of actor Will Lee by having his character, Mr. Hooper, die as well, and the rest of the cast explain to Big Bird what death meant. And yes, they straight up said, "He's dead." Result: Many parents said they found themselves able to explain to their kids why they couldn't visit certain relatives anymore...
I feel most bad for Tom Holland, he did a great job but they improvised the hell out of his films, being shared by Sony. And they did Peter wrong making him a little side kick. It's like he's still trying to make the character more badass but they nerf him
I can kind of understand making him a sidekick while he was like 15 in the first movie we saw him in with Civil War. But by the time he’s got his own movie he should no longer feel like a sidekick. As much as I loved the Tony & Peter relationship it does a disservice to Spider-Man’s individualism.
well he wasnt really a sidekick in his movies. He's always the main character never sidelined. Its just that ironman is such an importance in the mcu world that it would make sense peter would look up to him since both are tech geniuses.
You know, even before Infinity War, I had noticed a slight drop of quality in the MCU. Specifically in Black Panther, the story felt rushed, Green screen city just everywhere, even the CGI looked unfinished. And don't get me started on the writers standing on their soap boxes. Like bro, I've never had problems with people being a different color, projecting much? Then there was Captain Marvel, I had never even heard of Brie Larson. I saw the trailers, was willing to give the movie a shot 'til Larson ran her mouth in the interviews and thought 'Well F you too!' and not go watch. Endgame was like a grand finale in my book though, not counting that one scene.
@@fvefve12 Sounds like something a bot would say Memes aside, Ragnarok probably has more issues plot-wise, even if they nailed the tone by comparison.
Sometimes I think the problem is that they focus too much on a message at times that the message ends up taking over for the plot. Also, how many times are they going to play the sympathetic villain card. It's been played to death. The Flagsmashers from Falcon And Winter Soldier, The Skrulls from Secret Invasion, the villain from The Marvels. I think they need to go back and look at some of their early movies like Iron Man but also movies from pre MCU like the Blade, Spider-Man, and X-Men trilogies. They weren't the Citizen Kane of superhero movies (okay maybe Spider-Man 2002 😁) but they were enjoyable.
I think it's cause they aren't putting effort into the script or the writing that they need to. They want to pay screenwriters so little that those people can't live on the money they make for the scripts. If Hollywood wants good stories, they need to pay for the quality writing. They are paying trash, and are getting trash.
It’s not that the movies and shows are bad but it feels more like content based off of the sheer amount of things they release, and with most of it having less emphasis on an overarching story it’s easy to see why people are losing interest. I do enjoy most of the projects from phase 4, but I do hope it’s more tied together in phase 5
The fact that End Game was not “the end” is an egregious cinematic blunder and an obvious money grab. It’s not that it was beyond criticism because for example, Age of Ultron was not good and I hated it. However, we knew something epic was coming and it was forgivable. Another example, I would have forgiven all the bs that the Fast and Furious series did if they would have ended with the Paul Walker send off because it was the perfect way to go out. But no, anything beyond that is a soulless money grab and we’re not going for it. Reboots, remakes and continuous series installments are tiresome to an audience and starts to highlight the inconsistencies and missteps that were once noticeable yet forgivable.
@@__-fi6xg lol 😂 You got a point. The same way how Ironman 1 was good but the 2nd had a terrible plot and villain. I’m just saying that you have to know how and when to go out on a high note. Infinity War and End Game helped cover up those blemishes and to not stop at End Game is wild to me. Now they are just throwing random heroes and spinoffs at a wall and nothing is sticking.
@@__-fi6xg The first Avengers was ok but the villain was bad. Also, the first few Avengers movies is a dramatically different experience watching in theater vs at home. It’s quite jarring actually. Pauses for unwarranted laughter, terrible one liners and plot holes all over the place. Crazy how time reveals all those this. But I really do believe if they would’ve stopped after End Game and left the MCU there, people would not be dragging Marvel as much, but what they are currently doing right now is atrocious.
the mcu sub-reddit it's a mess though, for them the mcu it's still uncritizable and if you criticize any new entry you're a bad person and a something-ist.
Zoomers are not into super heroes and that’s disneys fault. They have no one to blame but themselves. I’ll never understand these guys who openly support Disney against the fanbases 😂. I can’t think of anything so disgusting and degenerate
14:05 Have you considered the mcu and comics have 2 different multiverses? Also it don’t matter what Miguel said, That’s a Sony production. Meanwhile the 2 mcu productions called multiverse of madness and Loki season 2 both referred too the mcu as earth 616 so..
Yeah Feige insisting that the MCU is 616 means he views it as an adaptation and not another universe or something that can fit within the established Marvel comics multiverse
Exactly 😂 Openly siding with Disney like “hey man they are doing their best! Quit being an ist or a phobe” 😂 I’ve seen this movie twice, didn’t pay. It is so bad. Really low effort all around and it shows in the final prosuct
Wakanda Forever was the movie that killed it for me, first it was Love and Dumber and then Wakanda Forever ruined everything for me. As a massive Black Panther fan I can’t even care about anything that the MCU does with Wakanda anymore until they completely reboot the BP franchise cause my God that movie franchise is done for me. And yeah everything else Marvel is doing just doesn’t even interest me anymore. Dr. Strange was a side character in his second movie, Thor was utterly ruined in Love and Dumber, the Guardians probably aren’t returning anytime soon, and the X-Men/Fantastic 4 and Blade hasn’t even been introduced yet so yeah it ain’t looking good. I’m not even gonna mention how they are potentially gonna ruin Daredevil but I digress the MCU is trash now
Let’s all be real. The MCU wasn’t supposed to last forever. The fact that it has been around for 15 years (with the first 10 years being pretty amazing is impressive). However, they have stopped showing individual stories, and focus too much on intergalactic and multiversal threats now. But it was inevitable too. We spent a decade with the Avengers and seeing most of the team members in individual stories. The moment it came to an end, it was already too late. Everything comes at a cost. MCU’s birth made Superhero films mainstream and acceptable. It also made the general people more aware with lesser known characters. Outside of America, I can guarantee that most people didn’t know about Captain America, Thor, or even Iron-Man. Heck, I only knew about Iron-Man because I watched the 90s Animated show growing up along with Spider-Man and Silver Surfer. DC has a real opportunity to steal the spotlight by focussing on individual Stories. The Batman is probably the best DC film till date. If they don’t get too greedy, and focus on quality rather than quantity, they can make Superhero Films less “tedious” again I stopped caring about MCU after Endgame. I only followed the Spiderman movies. I haven’t watched a single MCU film or show since NWH. It’s just too far gone now.
Pretty sure phase 4 has gotten nothing but criticism. I myself only watched half an episode of Ms. Marvel, a few episodes of Hawkeye. Cap and Winter soldier was meh, and Secret Invasion was boring. Watched Quantumania and MoM months after release. I did like Moon Knight, Werewolf by Night, and Loki though.
I was all "caught up" until Moon Night. Haven't really seen anything post. Still kinda want to see Loki S2 and GotG. After the negative reception and wanting to avoid disappointment, I opted out of seeing Thor for Christian Bale's sake. As I really couldn't bring myself to sit through his talent sidelined to villain of the week. Wakanda Forever I'm not excited for as recasting in the MCU had happened twice before with Banner and Rhodes. People still call me crazy, but I will forever maintain that the full extended cut of Incredible Hulk 2008 is easily in my top 5 MCU. Had Norton kept the roll, I have a gut feeling that Hulk wouldn't have become such a weak laughingstock. Iron Man 3 was a poor adaptation of Extremis. Opting instead for sloppy Transformers fare.
Even when I was 13 when Avengers came out and beyond into my teen years and now into my adult years of my early twenties, I always felt like something was off with the MCU. The first Iron Man and the Hulk films were good for me and after seeing the Sam Raimi Spider-Man movies too but when Disney acquired it and the movies kept coming, I could see that almost all the movies were the exact same formula and I had to sit back and watch as my friends constantly went on and on about how amazing they were. Always caught up in the hype and the bandwagon mentality. But the truth of the matter is this. The MCU movies at their best are merely a 6/10 and even that's being generous.
I agree with you. I thought I was the only one who thought that most of the MCU movies were overrated. I mean, I liked a few of them (Iron Man, Captain America, Cival War, Infinity War), but after only a few movies, I noticed that they were becoming predictable. With the same pattern, humor, end credit scenes, etc. It seemed like the movies were just giant trailers for the next movie. It also seemed that the critics were heavily biased towards Disney Marvel, and biased against DC. It also seemed like, for some reason, people had made your choice between MCU and DC political. Like if you liked DC movies you were considered a toxic right wing fanboy. But if you liked Marvel you were considered progressive. I don't know. But the whole thing was weird.
@nerychristian I look at both series unbiased. I'm more a movie guy in general than a Comic Book person. Of course, they are a big part of my childhood and I like some DC material. Still think Wonder Woman is better than all the MCU combined and the first Christopher Reeve Superman but the Raimi movies are the best Comic Book movies ever made cause they actually feel like movies. It's the dogmatic mentality I utterly despise that "YOU HAVE TO LIKE THIS CUZ IF YOU DON'T YOU'RE A BITCH AND I'LL HATE YOU FOREVER". Christ, they think these movies were the second coming of Christ or something.
Yes, it’s okay to criticize the MCU now. For the most part. Good luck criticizing No Way Home though. Or the Spider-Verse. Or Insomniac’s Spider-Man 2. Last two aren’t MCU projects, but it’s still the same.
That 616 comment got me saying "yes" out loud. Couldn't believe that they took that approach when the 616 is explicitly the main comics continuity. It's like... it's not that hard, right?
I think the reason why people loved the mcu so much back then is cuz nobody was really expecting anything crazy yet we were getting great movie after great movie with a lot of hidden tie ins and a lot of thought into casting and overall story I think pivoting out of thanos has proven hard but it also does seem like the mcu in general has reduced in quality and with that thor movie it really shows they had a formula that worked and need to go back to that
I bet if we pay close attention and think critically we can see this same phenomena in everything from the apps we use to the systems we rely on to live.
Yah think theres a chance for the MCU to recover at this point, or is it cooked?
I honestly believe that as much as everyone wants to believe because of the pattern of just straight mid is not repairable I still think there’s hope for us yet
@@idkmynameEitherbro i hear you. Personally, i just think theyre gonna have some good movies here and there
@@KingBlackknuckletrue just give it time there’s always hope
I think Marvel has a lot of haters right now and they cant mess around with another she hulk like show. cant make the fanbase the villians of your show then be surprised they dont show up for you.
I guess not, it's literally as easy as writing a female character that is established and is put through the same level of quality of a heroes journey as any of the other well established and liked characters in the MCU so that people actually care about the character rather than hearing a corporation desperately screaming from a rooftop that they are inclusive while failing to write a strong female character who is personable with realistic flaws and is actually a better person or at least a different person because of what happened during the film.
You could always criticize, its just before the fans were 90/10 for the MCU. So you can yell but they yell louder.
Now its more like 60/40. So the critics voices are louder.
It should have always been ok to criticize the MCU regardless of it's success
MCU movies were always criticised, but it also had a rising number of fans
It’s more like you can do it without getting backlash from defenders bc they’ve all jumped ship
It's crazy how people defend stuff like movies and TV shows and even sports teams they like you aren't getting paid to do it so why do it for example I love the Guardians of the Galaxy movies but I wouldn't defend them especially if the criticism is valid
Same thing with the dceu
@@gerwaanhartfield7261Exactly. There’s nothing I’m going to defend tooth and nail that I didn’t create, I may debate but if the argument is valid then I’m not going to get upset
You nailed it when you said (effectively), "I don't have super hero fatigue, these movies just suck"
Something that I really dislike is how every character is the same person. They saw Tony was the quippy, witty guy and the most popular so they made everyone the quippy witty guy
everyone except for spider-man. Still quippy enough, but with none of his wit
I didn't like how they turned Banner from this mysterious intelligent man to a hippie with teacher level humor.
They did my boy dirty
Which made no sense. Tony worked because he was the quippy one, while everyone else was serious. They literally pulled a Syndrome and essentially made everyone Tony Stark, which ruined the appeal of his character
@@D3rpyD3su Should have kept just Tony and Peter as the quippy characters. The quips just worked with Tony because of RDJ and quips are a big part of Peter's personality.
Speaking of kids giving criticism, Chris Hemsworth has talked about his children’s friends criticizing Thor: Love and Thunder for being too silly.
Gyaaaaat DAYUM! Even CHILDREN think it's doin too much 😂
I hate how the PR gaslit audiences into thinking its movie fatigue when its disappointment from their shitty movies.
I used to be excited for an X-Men reboot in the MCU. Now I’m afraid what they’d do to it & I hope the people in charge get replaced before they get around to it.
So you are saying after thanos... marvel lost... balance?
😂😂😂😂😂
I once said I slept watching Black Panther and was called a racist.
“Superhero Fatigue” is the dumbest thing i keep hearing from ppl sayin why ppl dont watch marvel anymore.
If we had superhero fatigue then The Boys, Gen V, and Invincible wouldnt be as popular as they are.
We’re fatigued for good stories, not cuz of superheroes in general
Agreed
Not to mention Insomniac's Spider-Man 2 being a massive hit.
@awhellnah__ wokespotting is not good for one's mental health.
Is Gen V good, been looking for something to watch recently.
@@Edward_Ardy4671 yea its good, even if youve never seen the boys its pretty good.
I enjoyed gen v season one as much as any other season of the boys
I think the funniest aspect of this whole situation is that in the 90s marvel flooded the market with half assed cash grabs and they went bankrupt. This lead them to sell the movies rights of a lot of characters to keep the lights on. And here we our now decades later and the MCU is literally makin the same mistake. Half assed cash grabs, movies and shows nobody asked for, and making folks think they need to consume every product that’s released or miss out on the next big event. History really does repeat itself lol
OHHHH SHXT!! I didnt even consider than angle bruh. Now that you mention it....damn....
🤣
@@KingBlackknuckle it’s crazy fam
15:40 I don’t think “superhero fatigue” really even exists. If that were the case, then “The Batman” would’ve flopped. The Spiderverse movies would’ve also flopped. But they didn’t. I think it’s less Superhero Fatigue and more “bad writing fatigue”
No it does, just not for Batman, and Spider-Man, other heroes like every superman come and go in popularity but those two have always had star power even when no one cared about super heroes.
@@ouchiegiverjri really think its abt writing. a well acted and compelling film with a good story is a good film regardless of superhero elements
No, it's definitely a thing.
I agree
If it really existed, nobody would entertain themselves with Loki Season 2, Spiderman 2, My Hero Academia, One Punch Man, etc. Fatigue implies you are tired of the entire genre. These people use that as an excuse to complain about stuff they don't like, when in reality, they still like superheroes.
I blame a lot of this to Guardians brain rot. They saw those films do gang busters and thought "okay, so they'll just watch anything we make" without understanding why Guardians of the Galaxy worked so well. Like, it worked well because it was a good story that just never got the proper exposure. It was a hidden gem, similar to something like Medaka Box if we want to use Shonen Jump as an example.
And then Captain Marvel happened and any pretense of "standards" went out the window.
She Hulk writers thought they're being clever.
Everyone : You morons are absolute waste of Millions .
Kind of like how in 2018 you couldn't critique the first Black Panther. Especially the 3rd act of that movie which was god awful.
I'm black myself and got called the usual pejoratives just because I gave it a solid 6.5 instead of a 20/10.
It was ridiculous.
Fast forward to 2023 and I see Blerd sites openly saying that BP 2 was trash....I'm like...."WHAT??!!" Where were ya'll in 2018 with ya'll "objectivity"??!!
Yeah, that is a load of crap. I hate how critics kissed Black Panther's ass for no fucking reason.
fr the black panther meat riding was insane
It’s so creepy to see all the MCU nuthugger movie critic channels hate on the MCU at the exact same time. As soon as the marvels came out it was free game. I know DAMN well that Thor 4 was WAY WORSE than The Marvels.
As soon as South Park called 'em on their bullshit, the herd saw it as a green light.
I remember when everyone would defend the mcu with their lives lmao. “It’s marvel, you know it’s good”
“Marvel can do no wrong”
I don’t remember anybody defending the MCU by saying “It’s just for kids, bro” back in the early 2010s. I was a kid, and I still loved them. Now I’m a grown-ass man, and the movies and shows are considerably worse, and people are rolling out the “it’s for kids” defense? Something’s not right there.
The excuse "it's for kids" are just a trash excuse to cover the fact the media is trash. Kids can handle all sorts of stuff, but nah...let's dumb it all down. People are so politicized or desperately full of cope trying to make sense of trash stories as something good, see TLOU2.
The MCU should've ended with Endgame.
Like it’s literally in the title lmao
This is weird … it’s ALWAYS been ok to criticize the MCU .. actors and directors and fans have been critiquing it since it first became big lol .. Martin Scorsese even criticized the mcu at a award show …. Just bc it was number 1 didn’t mean ppl couldn’t criticize it wtf
i think what he saying is before u would criticize the mcu and everybody would be up in arms but if you criticize it now people agree
Because before if you criticised it you were a 'bigot', 'racist', 'misogynistic' etc
You could critique it but it wasn't taken seriously because of popularity bias. People wouldn't hunt you down like you're a mutant or anything but they'd laugh at you.
after watching Loki Season 2, I believe there's still hope
hope for such recovery, that is
but then sometimes I am reminded of unwanted stuff like Echo,
Ironheart, Agatha, et cetera, whom the lot of us have yet to familiarize ourselves with
and now we're getting a Season 2 of She-Hulk? that one damn show that put THE FINAL NAIL in the coffin?
bruh
shit, She-hulk s2 is legit? Fuck, that series was the one that made me quit the MCU.
Still, Loki S2, GOTG vol 3 was good tho but the others are trash
Inability to criticize what's popular is that npc shit.
And as usual, the people who were ahead of the curve will never get the credit they deserve for being right and will probably still be treated like bad people for daring to be right before it was acceptable to do so.
You spitting hard core truth. It’s crazy how much of a hold marvel/Disney had ahold on society
im convinced the matrix reset in 2020
I've always held my ground with bad media. I'm not a "turn off your brain and have fun" type of person. I value growth and intent above all things. If something doesn't work or is mediocre, it should be either fixed or thrown out. It's apalling how people have been conditioned to settle for mediocrity and downright terrible influences, especially when it comes to stories and characters that hold high cultural significance. I get that there are hit and miss moments. No one is perfect and everyone has different perspectives and tastes. But I personally would find it insulting and confusing if you told me you had stake on the menu, just for me to order it and be served a literal massive pile of shit for almost thirty dollars and be reprimanded and insulted for complaining.
I think you're overlooking at this like you can like bad movies and you should turn off your brain and everyone does that and what you mean by condition for mediocrity? You're not making sense here
autism
"Turn your brain off and enjoy" doesn't mean you just blindly consoom movies no matter the quality, it's more of you acknowledge the deep flaws it may have and still try to derive enjoyment out of that. To extend the metaphor, you can be angry that you got served shit when you ordered steak, but you might just as well snap it and post on instagram for a shitpost. You can like a movie while admitting that it sucks.
I don’t have high preferences though I enjoy most movies and I just take some things in face value and for me to actually dislike a movie it would have to be something like the Barbie movie or maybe it’s because I’ve been more of a fan for Barbie than MCU I guess?
Even Iman Vellani who portayed Kamala Khan in both Ms. Marvel and The Marvels refers the MCU as earth 199999. Even Spider-Verse referred the MCU as earth 199999.
When I saw that article where she said that, my respect for the actress shot up
@@KingBlackknuckle Liked Hailee Steinfeld in Hawkeye but I liked her in Bumblebee better.
14:45 - This point made right here perfectly explains why I feel anime and manga is so much better than superhero comics and shows, as they remain consistent with character continuity. When you look up Goku, there will be only one Goku. When you look up Naruto, there will be only one Naruto. When you look up Luffy, there will be only one Luffy, rather than 4 or 5 different versions of that character with the same name. Sure, each of the characters I listed have had different forms, like Goku's Super Saiyan and Ultra Instinct forms, but Goku is still the same character from the original Dragon Ball 1984 manga, to the upcoming Dragon Ball DAIMA anime for Fall 2024.
But when a western superhero gets a new form or power, they're usually introduced in a completely different universe, which is something that has really been bothering me a lot in the past few years.
That's what makes western superheroes so fun though and why they've been around for so long.
@@amarvax3442 I mean, I get what you mean. It can be fine every now and then, but when superheroes have to rely on rebooting and reimagining characters and their universes over and over again, usually because the writers have written themselves into a corner, or because people are losing interest in these characters, it kinda dilutes the significance of the characters and their stories over time because you have to keep with so many different versions of the same characters.
No dude, Goku has really not been THAT consistent
The mcu is like Rick and Morty now
The MCU has always been criticized, the thing now is that the content they've been releasing lately is just undefendable, even by hardcore fans
Another big problem with the MCU is how it has crowded out other genre movies. The MCU is like a burger and fries and while burgers are good, you can't eat just that for every meal. The MCU basically forced everyone else to serve the same meal with only a few minor differences and variations in between. That was exactly what DCEU fans tried to push back against.
I remember getting into an argument with a dude on Twitter who said that the only reason I didn't like the MCU was because they were popular. Then he blocked me before I could reply. I wonder how he's doing now.
I don't think the problem with She Hulk was the self awareness or the calling out of certain critics. I just don't think it was funny. I think that the same themes and personality could've worked if the script was a bit better.
That and Jen thinking being catcalled is equivalent to fighting a universe ending super crisis. Being held captive on a planet and forced to participate in gladiator games to the death. Leading that planet in war.
It’s hubris. Disney refuses to tell a story with women. In marvels zero conflict between any of the girls. The conflict between Ironman and Cap was essential to the MCU in the new MCU no one argues except men with women and they are always wrong 😂.
This movie should have been put out on Disney channel for free the production value is so low effort.
I Lost COMPLETE INVESTMENT in the C.U.M. after they butchered consecutively my 3 Favorite Marvel Villains: MANDARIN, ULTRON & ZEMO
The Incredibles is just a great movie, with good stories and characters. Plus Frozone, so freaking cool. Honey, where's my super suit.
That movie was a damn national treasure.
Slightly unpopular opinion: I don't think the writing of the MCU was ever that strong. They just had the right idea with the right actors at the right time, and the charisma of their leads made up for a lot of otherwise pretty by-the-numbers stories.
I mean, were any of the Thor movies really masterful story telling? Or even the team up movies? Personally, I don't think so. They were fun enough, yeah, but not exactly a masterclass in plot or character writing.
The problem they have now is that their charismatic leads have now mostly gone and they're now trying to capture that lightning in a bottle a second time and are obviously failing at it.
Personally, the only way I could get reinvested is if they abandoned this shared universe and just started creating stories without forever worrying about where it all fits in.
In fairness, Thor was one of the worst of the early and mainstay series in terms of storytelling. Thor's arc is that he is an arrogant, entitled, and bloodthirsty manchild who does an ethical near-180 because he saw a hot chic. Neither any experiences nor arguments are ever presented to justify his change in perspective or ethics; Loki is the only one who has a coherent arc at all beyond an unexplained women's smut plot beat. While Captain America was full of self-contradictions and Iron Man had plenty of issues, they at least had coherent narrative arcs.
Its okay
Man, I've been Criticizing the MCU ONLINE when they did something stupid since the FIRST THOR movies. And where they are NOW. Many of us long time fans Saw this coming for a long time.
“Couldn’t criticize a single thing about the MCU.”
Thor; The Dark World begs to differ.
Ironically Thanos was right about shredding everything down to its last atom and start again cause what’s currently happening isn’t working anymore for most people.
It was always OK to criticize Marvel.
The thing is, the movies were enjoyable and hype enough so we mostly ignored the evident flaws and had fun with them.
Some people when criticing them were like: THEY ARE NOT GOOD, STOP HAVING FUN.
I always compared them to having fast food, every once in a while you just want that Big Mac (an MCU movie) rather than a 3 michelin stars Rissotto (DUNE for example).
Today, not only the quality became way worse, they are not even enjoyable so whats even the point?
I used to work with a guy who was a comics fan like me. During the original slate of Marvel movies, we both were really excited to see what was coming next.
When I started to notice the changes the movies were going through, I wasn't that excited anymore. My co worker started calling me a hater and I'm just mad because women are in the movies. I tried to explain that it was because of bad writing not because of women. Hell, there have been plenty of action movies with great female characters. Ripley from Aliens comes to mind.
Anyway, this guy starts posting on Facebook all of a sudden about Marvel "haters" and making indirect comments referencing our conversations. I stopped talking to the dude and we parted ways as enemies over a difference of opinion. Sad.
MCU really should’ve ended with End Game.
Looking back on it: Yeah the MCU has had a history of stinkers. I’ll admit tho, growing up with them does make me biased as hell lmao. I literally graduated the same year and month that endgame came out and it just felt very poetic.
I think there is no such thing like super hero fatigue is the quality, like the video game crash, part of it was all the bad games flooding the market
You're correct once the money started rolling into the game industry, we got a massive influx of cash grab, cookie cutter games that diluted the market, Disney/Marvel are doing the same thing right now, cash grab, cookie cutter, formulaic "content" that has no real substance.
Also I think it's having people at the top who don't know what they're doing or are disinterested, Kevin Feige might just not care as much as he once did, just like the writers of GoT, it happens sometimes and that could explain why the quality has dropped so much. In gaming once it became hugely profitable you started getting board members from Walmart, Banks, Car companies etc moving over into the gaming industry and implementing similar business practices which have lead to games taking a dive in quality.
Next the talent they're hiring, evidently some of the writers, directors and show runners they're hiring don't have a clue what they're doing and should never have been trusted with such important IP's and you have to wonder why there seems to be so little oversight into the production of these films and shows.
Lack of a cohesive plot, increased fragmentation into multiple series and shows makes it difficult to follow them all. Also it has to be said that the influence of the "message" and obvious agenda pushing of the MCU in recent times has lead to a dramatic decrease in the quality of the overall product
i agree invincible and the boys are still ringing off
...this is COMPLETELY untrue. People have ALWAYS criticized _Thor: The Dark World_ (and even the first _Thor_ movie), _Ironman 2_ and _3, Age of Ultron,_ etc. Maybe the people in YOUR circle were like this, but I've met people in real life as well as seen entire threads and comment sections complaining about how BAD these particular films were.
But I understand that you need a topic for a video so rock on, I guess. The more accurate thing to point out is how it's now "cool" to hate on Marvel. Aka you have dozens of videos _like THIS_ basically stating the obvious and acting like it's "brand new." 😕
🗣🔥🔥🔥🔥
Honestly Iron Man 2 is VERY underrated and not as bad as you MCU fanboys said it was. Also you MCU fanboys completely missed the point of this video, which was that people hot butthurt whenever you criticized or disliked the MCU in general back then.
I'm sorry, but you're the very definition of a snowflake and a low IQ MCU fanboy.
What ultimately killed the MCU for me was how everything is just disconnected and pointless. Remember how in Wandavision there was all white Vision who just flew off and we've never seen him again? And then in Eternals, a giant being shows up towering over the entire Earth, combined with the one in the ocean, and nobody ever talks it about it? I thought those would be the new big bad. And what's going on with Shang Chi's rings at the end, that seemed important?!
You could go on and on and on with this crap. The nail in the coffin for me was how the entire Spiderman multiverse shenanigans was a throwaway line in the next Dr. Strange. I was like okay they're not even going for the 'cinematic universe' anymore. The fun of the MCU for me was seeing how events would setup later events and people would speculate and whatever. It was FUN. It's not fun with what seems like isolated stories, cause they're all terrible stories (per critiques in this video).
Everything after Endgame is just spin offs, Fraisers to the Cheers we liked. That was the end of the MCU story, and that's a good thing cause all stories need an ending.
Remember the old days when if you said something bad about MCU movies the entire fandom would eat you alive? Never thought i would see the day where MCU fans would agree that the MCU has become a bad franchise.
I criticized mcu starting with the first captain America movie. It's crazy out of 30+ movies maybe 5 of them are great and the rest are ok at best. So many stinkers in there
I mean people always said Age of Ultron, Iron Man 3, Thor 2, and many other movies were shit
Shhhhhh he is too dumb to realise that
I remember people dunking on Iron Man 3 and Thor 2, and I thought Civil War and Age of Ultron were underwhelming when they came out
They aren't that great given their popularity.
@@pain5744you do realize people still gave AOU and IM3 a benefit of the doubt right? Mayne you MCU fanboys who dedicate your lives to this stuff complained about them all the time, but casual audiences still liked them
when i watched the first avenger movie i pointed out to many friends of mine that during a serious conflict comedy will Affect the flow, But they are like thats what a good movie was about which could make it entertaining, well is it entertaining now???? people took cringe and made it comedy.....
Here's what pisses me off: I was reading Marvel comics in the 90's and early 2000's, when it was considered really uncool to do so. I was going to the comic conventions where only about 200 people would show up, most of them comic book vendors looking to sell or trade comics to each other. I was there when the only 'celebs' that came to these things were comic book artists and writers. Then the MCU blows up and all the jock assholes who are like the ones gave me shit for reading comics are telling me how cool they think these characters are! I'm like, 'Yeah, I know. I knew that back in 1994.' And now with Phase 4 being totally garbage, when I comment on that, a long-time comic fan who KNOWS what kind of amazing quality we used to get, I get called not only wrong, but racist or misogynistic! And by the people who didn't even know what the hell I was reading so long ago! It's always been tough being a comic book fan, and the current climate of the MCU is no different. Most of the content just plain sucks and it's totally okay to admit it.
Thank you! A lot of comic fans feel like you. One of the reasons why comic fans are now so upset is because Marvel and Disney decided they were going to put their agenda on our stuff when we were the ones that supported them when they were broke and now are calling us names for not liking their new trash. They catered to a bunch of less than casual fans who were on a bandwagon and it is now clear the bandwagon is empty but they are still trying desperately to appeal to an audience that does not exist or if it did, left.
Part of the joy of the early movies was seeing characters comic book readers loved for years and we never thought we would see them done seriously. It was uncool to read them and people called comic book fans nerds, or worse. Now it is obvious they do not want to do that and want to pander to non fans, so they are no longer serious about their own fandom.
Beta male
I still sorta hold this (very light, no hard feelings) grudge against some of my friends. I enjoyed the MCU! Phase 1-2, never missed a movie. One Phase 3 came in, I was getting fatigued, especially with Phase 4. I began to express my problems with the MCU, feelings there's far too much content, and I got discoursed into hell by my friends. Saying things like they need to make these many movies other wise it's take decades to tell the stories they want to tell, and so much more; this is great, that's great, a bit bumpy there but still good. I felt like an outsider now, I felt, maybe my inner boomer is showing and I'm problem. I turn around, blink, and now all of a sudden everyone is criticizing the MCU, even my friends. They now agree with the points I had issue with, but the part that bugs me the most is that they act like this is an opinion they've always had! And it's like WHAT THE FUCK. I had to argue that is now how things went.
No, you need to remain steadfast and remind them how things really went down! Don’t let their egos skate by and pretend it never happened. The preservation of truth is in your hands 🙌🏼
@@Anyox17 I appreciate the encouragement! And don't you worry, I am stubborn as hell. I get it, no one likes coming off as a fool, I know my friends sound bad here but they're great people. But don't worry, I'm not letting them forget whenever the topic of Marvel comes up. I don't want to come off as "UM ACTUALLY, I DIDN'T LIKE MARVEL FIRST" but I don't want them to forget that they were fast to change their tune.
I remember back then when Avenger ultron was released, my friend who was a big marvel fan invited me to watch the movie, i was a teenager back then, and i still remember i fucking felt asleep in the middle of the movie because of how fucking boring it was, but my friend called me basically stupid and normie just by falling sleep lol.
Lol. They called you a normie for not liking an MCU movie. What even
People always complained about the MCU. The difference is that now the movies are consistently bad, not excellent.
Think of all the movies in the Infinity Saga and pick out the ones that were weakest.
Thor Dark World, Captain Marvel, maybe Ironman 2? Point is, you can only think of a handful.
Nowadays, the challenge is picking out the stuff that's actually pretty good: Guardians 3 comes to mind but that's really it.
Opinions haven't changed, the quality of content produced by Marvel has.
Had someone get mad at me for even going to see The Marvels
yea, you got people who get hella crazy with their feelings. Its one thing to not like somethin but gotdamn
Mcu fans are annoying
i can see where theyre coming from tho
It was always ok to criticise it. But when it was in it’s prime some people were just hating on it for the sake of it.
Your idea for black panther 2 is phenomenal. Didn’t think of it but it would have been a great idea and a much better path forward.
it can be argued that T'Challa 2 is Azari from the comics/The Next Avengers, but that's normally with the inclusion of Storm. So it's still kinda shoehorned it in
Uhhhh
Most of us said The Hulk was bad.
When it came out.
And the internet hated on The Dark World passionately.
From the beginning it was fine to criticize.
Ya know what's not ok? Saying anything good about anything in phase 4 or 5.
Except for the spider-man and guardian movies
literallyyy. if I just say like x project was pretty good when the internet consensus is that it's bad, there will be a million people in my replies talking about how clearly I'm being payed or brainwashed or whatever
Don't forget about IM3
@@lukayaroslav9914 lol, maybe I had successfully forgotten it on purpose!
Saying that there hasn't been any good stuff in phase 4 and 5 is a straight up lie
Hasn’t been the same since Stan Lee passed
Can't say a thing when the masses are all high on mass hype, even when you're right. The MASSIVE irony remembering that one comic where Cap gives the speech about standing firm in your beliefs even if the entire world is against you, seeing that the brainless people who blindly consume are exactly what Cap is warning against.
Oh well, MCU was fun while it lasted but it's time to move on
The Mcu: "She Hulk is just lafy hulk and we hate it! Why can't she be her own person!?"
No that's unrealistic, would never happen.
Real life: "Dude Kanye made Taylor famous cuz she a woman! She doesn't deserve her fame!!"
"But it's just for kids" argument is so insulting to the kid movies that try to make good stories
Puss In Boots definitely was more mature than recent MCU films
Nah, media literacy has been dead for a long time. The MCU was never high-quality in any way; it simply played on the power fantasy that many comic readers were drawn to, but Disney gave it wide appeal. The same things they did to make Phase 1 appealing to people are now being done for various demographics, but as a result of the demographic shift, people are seeing the same quality of writing through a new lens. Instead of using critical thinking skills to ask themselves, "Has this franchise always been this way, but my biases have prevented me from seeing it?" People went to extremes as always. They either meat rode like they were in Disney's will or something, or they reenact the Salem witch trials over every little thing (since that's what finding "wokeness" in anything actually is). I appreciate Marvel movies, and I enjoyed the TV series on Disney Plus because I asked a simple question. "Is this consistent with the character they've created thus far? And does this make sense in terms of the overall continuity they are creating?" I can like or adore something faulty or broken because I can either accept it for what it is and discuss how it could be improved (as this video does to some level) or go on to something else that will sustain me. The difficulty is that most individuals do not want to really interact with what they are seeing. They want to engage with what they *want* to see. I'd rather talk about what's wrong and what we both like. Then how criticizing the MCU normally descends over who meat rides for the comic versions hard enough. Basically, I think the only reason it's okay to criticize the MCU now is because most people don't have strong enough biases for these characters.
Anyway, this long ass essay was simply me expressing my piece.
REAL REAL REAL👏🏾💯
They gotta realize the story is over. It has been since Endgame. I know it makes money, but DAMN you’re killing it
I remember people saying Thor the dark world, and Ironman 2 were pretty shit. Maybe it's the people you were surrounded by, but I always heard the criticism people had for the mcu. The difference is that the old mcu seemed to have learned from their mistakes, now they think they are to good to listen to criticism.
I went to go see TDW when it released that weekend. It just bored me. Prolly because I was a kid back then but still even now I remember the details and it never gives you a reason to rewatch it
im pretty sure when Age of ultron com out, plenty of people criticize it. same with Captain marvel and so on...im pretty sure there has always been criticism.
Bro THANK YOU FOR THIS. Oh my god I am also so happy you brought up the absurdity that is Thor Ragnarok. People would die on a hill about their love for the movie, but I ALWAYS detested how it was just a comedic mess, and I'm pretty sure that is exactly what people loved about it. People love comedy, and if it can make them laugh, then it was well worth it for them. However, I just... ugh, the freaking theme is Ragnarok man, why the heck did they treat it like some happy adventure?! At least back then, they hadn't desecrated Thor's character yet...
Anyone with a brain knew that after endgame, it was all headed downhill.
I never felt that it wasn't okay to criticize MCU back then. Before this horrendous Phase 4, we had terrible movies like Thor The Dark Word, Captain Marvel, Iron Man 3, and they were pretty much all criticized.
But you know which other superhero movies have a lot of defenders? Zack Snyder ones. Nolan's TDK trilogy. Sam Raimi's Spiderman trilogy. Try to criticize some and you'll see.
lmao the algorithm its so strange, this is a 2 weeks ago video but all the comentaries are from 1 day ago or less
I am a DC fan boy but I like Marvel and used to watch the MCU movies that appealed to me. I had been complaining about the formulaic writing of these movies since Phase 2 but got wrote off as a DC fan. I notice my Marvel friends are reeeeeal quiet now, though. 😂
Yup as a DC fan if you said mcu was formulaic they’d start bringing up DC failing. But now everyone is so quiet
I used to get very excited at the first mention of the next MCU movie to be released. And I would literally shake with anticipation while in the theater as a film was about to begin.
Now I just don't care. I'm not rushing to the theater and I may watch the film once it is streaming when I get around to it.
So that either means I've changed or the quality has decreased. In reality it may be a little of both, but I still love Marvel so I don't think it's me.
I enjoyed listening to your thoughts on the matter.
I'm in the same boat. I think the quality has declined. But I think the bigger problem is it's stopped focusing on character.
The Infinity Saga worked a lot like a TV show. Individual "episodes" might vary in quality, but you kept coming back because you loved the characters. Captain America was my favorite, and I was able to enjoy a new film that featured him every year or two. He had a core group of friends he interacted with, was characterized pretty consistently, and got a clear character arc. Most other OG Avengers were given similar treatment. Even Hawkeye appeared in 5 movies over 8 years and apart from his initial appearance in Thor, each one gave him a scene with Natasha, his most significant relationship. And when he was given a family in AOU, they were at least mentioned in all subsequent appearances.
Compare to Post-Endgame MCU. What characters and relationships can you follow and be invested in? Most films are too overstuffed to have time for good character work. And more importantly, few characters make regular appearances. "Shang Chi" matched Phase 1 & 2 films like "Thor" in terms of quality. But it's been 2 years and he's not slated to appear in other movies anytime soon. There probably won't be a sequel until at least 2026. I can tell you, if there had been 5 years between TFA and TWS, I wouldn’t have become a Captain America fan. I would have lost interest.
One-off appearances have been the trend for most Post-Endgame characters. And when characters do make multiple appearances, they are often written inconsistently. I liked Wanda in the Infinity Saga, but in MOM she's a completely different person with no real build up. I don't care about Doctor Strange at all, but for someone who seemed to take the responsibility of his powers and position very seriously before, in NWH he breaks the fabric of reality just to help Spiderman restore his secret identity. When you write characters to serve the plot instead of vice-versa, the viewer stops caring about the characters.
One thing I think you missed about dismissing things as "kid's stuff" is that the best media for children *took children seriously.*. I'll use an example from television: the Sesame Street episode "I'll miss you, Mr. Hooper". CTW decided to deal with the death of actor Will Lee by having his character, Mr. Hooper, die as well, and the rest of the cast explain to Big Bird what death meant. And yes, they straight up said, "He's dead."
Result: Many parents said they found themselves able to explain to their kids why they couldn't visit certain relatives anymore...
I feel most bad for Tom Holland, he did a great job but they improvised the hell out of his films, being shared by Sony. And they did Peter wrong making him a little side kick. It's like he's still trying to make the character more badass but they nerf him
I can kind of understand making him a sidekick while he was like 15 in the first movie we saw him in with Civil War. But by the time he’s got his own movie he should no longer feel like a sidekick.
As much as I loved the Tony & Peter relationship it does a disservice to Spider-Man’s individualism.
well he wasnt really a sidekick in his movies. He's always the main character never sidelined. Its just that ironman is such an importance in the mcu world that it would make sense peter would look up to him since both are tech geniuses.
You know, even before Infinity War, I had noticed a slight drop of quality in the MCU. Specifically in Black Panther, the story felt rushed, Green screen city just everywhere, even the CGI looked unfinished. And don't get me started on the writers standing on their soap boxes. Like bro, I've never had problems with people being a different color, projecting much?
Then there was Captain Marvel, I had never even heard of Brie Larson. I saw the trailers, was willing to give the movie a shot 'til Larson ran her mouth in the interviews and thought 'Well F you too!' and not go watch. Endgame was like a grand finale in my book though, not counting that one scene.
Pretty sure everyone agreed Thor 2 was not good.
@@fvefve12 Sounds like something a bot would say
Memes aside, Ragnarok probably has more issues plot-wise, even if they nailed the tone by comparison.
@@fvefve12most people agreed with him. Thor 2 and the original Hulk were pretty widely accepted as bad movies
Sometimes I think the problem is that they focus too much on a message at times that the message ends up taking over for the plot.
Also, how many times are they going to play the sympathetic villain card. It's been played to death. The Flagsmashers from Falcon And Winter Soldier, The Skrulls from Secret Invasion, the villain from The Marvels.
I think they need to go back and look at some of their early movies like Iron Man but also movies from pre MCU like the Blade, Spider-Man, and X-Men trilogies. They weren't the Citizen Kane of superhero movies (okay maybe Spider-Man 2002 😁) but they were enjoyable.
I think it's cause they aren't putting effort into the script or the writing that they need to. They want to pay screenwriters so little that those people can't live on the money they make for the scripts. If Hollywood wants good stories, they need to pay for the quality writing. They are paying trash, and are getting trash.
This was the funniest, well thought out commentary I've ever seen. You definitely just gained a new subscriber
It’s not that the movies and shows are bad but it feels more like content based off of the sheer amount of things they release, and with most of it having less emphasis on an overarching story it’s easy to see why people are losing interest. I do enjoy most of the projects from phase 4, but I do hope it’s more tied together in phase 5
The fact that End Game was not “the end” is an egregious cinematic blunder and an obvious money grab. It’s not that it was beyond criticism because for example, Age of Ultron was not good and I hated it. However, we knew something epic was coming and it was forgivable. Another example, I would have forgiven all the bs that the Fast and Furious series did if they would have ended with the Paul Walker send off because it was the perfect way to go out. But no, anything beyond that is a soulless money grab and we’re not going for it. Reboots, remakes and continuous series installments are tiresome to an audience and starts to highlight the inconsistencies and missteps that were once noticeable yet forgivable.
how was the first avengers good? bad guy was a fartcloud.
@@__-fi6xg lol 😂 You got a point. The same way how Ironman 1 was good but the 2nd had a terrible plot and villain. I’m just saying that you have to know how and when to go out on a high note. Infinity War and End Game helped cover up those blemishes and to not stop at End Game is wild to me. Now they are just throwing random heroes and spinoffs at a wall and nothing is sticking.
@@__-fi6xg The first Avengers was ok but the villain was bad. Also, the first few Avengers movies is a dramatically different experience watching in theater vs at home. It’s quite jarring actually. Pauses for unwarranted laughter, terrible one liners and plot holes all over the place. Crazy how time reveals all those this. But I really do believe if they would’ve stopped after End Game and left the MCU there, people would not be dragging Marvel as much, but what they are currently doing right now is atrocious.
the mcu sub-reddit it's a mess though, for them the mcu it's still uncritizable and if you criticize any new entry you're a bad person and a something-ist.
The MCU is dead. It’s not gonna happen for them again. The reason is because Disney is dead. It’s not coming back and they keep pulling up trash.
Zoomers are not into super heroes and that’s disneys fault. They have no one to blame but themselves.
I’ll never understand these guys who openly support Disney against the fanbases 😂. I can’t think of anything so disgusting and degenerate
14:05
Have you considered the mcu and comics have 2 different multiverses?
Also it don’t matter what Miguel said, That’s a Sony production.
Meanwhile the 2 mcu productions called multiverse of madness and Loki season 2 both referred too the mcu as earth 616 so..
Yeah Feige insisting that the MCU is 616 means he views it as an adaptation and not another universe or something that can fit within the established Marvel comics multiverse
"Just let people enjoy thingssss!!!!" The shit folks will say to defend their slop.
wow i've found that sentence so often. you're not alone
Exactly 😂
Openly siding with Disney like “hey man they are doing their best! Quit being an ist or a phobe” 😂
I’ve seen this movie twice, didn’t pay. It is so bad. Really low effort all around and it shows in the final prosuct
Wakanda Forever was the movie that killed it for me, first it was Love and Dumber and then Wakanda Forever ruined everything for me. As a massive Black Panther fan I can’t even care about anything that the MCU does with Wakanda anymore until they completely reboot the BP franchise cause my God that movie franchise is done for me. And yeah everything else Marvel is doing just doesn’t even interest me anymore. Dr. Strange was a side character in his second movie, Thor was utterly ruined in Love and Dumber, the Guardians probably aren’t returning anytime soon, and the X-Men/Fantastic 4 and Blade hasn’t even been introduced yet so yeah it ain’t looking good. I’m not even gonna mention how they are potentially gonna ruin Daredevil but I digress the MCU is trash now
Let’s all be real. The MCU wasn’t supposed to last forever.
The fact that it has been around for 15 years (with the first 10 years being pretty amazing is impressive).
However, they have stopped showing individual stories, and focus too much on intergalactic and multiversal threats now.
But it was inevitable too. We spent a decade with the Avengers and seeing most of the team members in individual stories. The moment it came to an end, it was already too late.
Everything comes at a cost. MCU’s birth made Superhero films mainstream and acceptable. It also made the general people more aware with lesser known characters.
Outside of America, I can guarantee that most people didn’t know about Captain America, Thor, or even Iron-Man. Heck, I only knew about Iron-Man because I watched the 90s Animated show growing up along with Spider-Man and Silver Surfer.
DC has a real opportunity to steal the spotlight by focussing on individual Stories. The Batman is probably the best DC film till date. If they don’t get too greedy, and focus on quality rather than quantity, they can make Superhero Films less “tedious” again
I stopped caring about MCU after Endgame. I only followed the Spiderman movies. I haven’t watched a single MCU film or show since NWH.
It’s just too far gone now.
Pretty sure phase 4 has gotten nothing but criticism. I myself only watched half an episode of Ms. Marvel, a few episodes of Hawkeye. Cap and Winter soldier was meh, and Secret Invasion was boring. Watched Quantumania and MoM months after release. I did like Moon Knight, Werewolf by Night, and Loki though.
I was all "caught up" until Moon Night. Haven't really seen anything post. Still kinda want to see Loki S2 and GotG. After the negative reception and wanting to avoid disappointment, I opted out of seeing Thor for Christian Bale's sake. As I really couldn't bring myself to sit through his talent sidelined to villain of the week. Wakanda Forever I'm not excited for as recasting in the MCU had happened twice before with Banner and Rhodes.
People still call me crazy, but I will forever maintain that the full extended cut of Incredible Hulk 2008 is easily in my top 5 MCU. Had Norton kept the roll, I have a gut feeling that Hulk wouldn't have become such a weak laughingstock.
Iron Man 3 was a poor adaptation of Extremis. Opting instead for sloppy Transformers fare.
@@maggot216yeah loki season 2 is like the one of two good things of phase 4
Me at 9 y.o.: Give Terminator 2, Under Siege, Indiana Jones 3 right now.
Me at 25 y.o.: Puss in Boots 2 is a masterpiece
Even when I was 13 when Avengers came out and beyond into my teen years and now into my adult years of my early twenties, I always felt like something was off with the MCU. The first Iron Man and the Hulk films were good for me and after seeing the Sam Raimi Spider-Man movies too but when Disney acquired it and the movies kept coming, I could see that almost all the movies were the exact same formula and I had to sit back and watch as my friends constantly went on and on about how amazing they were. Always caught up in the hype and the bandwagon mentality. But the truth of the matter is this. The MCU movies at their best are merely a 6/10 and even that's being generous.
I agree with you. I thought I was the only one who thought that most of the MCU movies were overrated. I mean, I liked a few of them (Iron Man, Captain America, Cival War, Infinity War), but after only a few movies, I noticed that they were becoming predictable. With the same pattern, humor, end credit scenes, etc. It seemed like the movies were just giant trailers for the next movie. It also seemed that the critics were heavily biased towards Disney Marvel, and biased against DC. It also seemed like, for some reason, people had made your choice between MCU and DC political. Like if you liked DC movies you were considered a toxic right wing fanboy. But if you liked Marvel you were considered progressive. I don't know. But the whole thing was weird.
@nerychristian I look at both series unbiased. I'm more a movie guy in general than a Comic Book person. Of course, they are a big part of my childhood and I like some DC material. Still think Wonder Woman is better than all the MCU combined and the first Christopher Reeve Superman but the Raimi movies are the best Comic Book movies ever made cause they actually feel like movies. It's the dogmatic mentality I utterly despise that "YOU HAVE TO LIKE THIS CUZ IF YOU DON'T YOU'RE A BITCH AND I'LL HATE YOU FOREVER". Christ, they think these movies were the second coming of Christ or something.
I was always criticizing marvel because of what they did to the hulk
Yes, it’s okay to criticize the MCU now. For the most part. Good luck criticizing No Way Home though.
Or the Spider-Verse.
Or Insomniac’s Spider-Man 2.
Last two aren’t MCU projects, but it’s still the same.
That 616 comment got me saying "yes" out loud. Couldn't believe that they took that approach when the 616 is explicitly the main comics continuity. It's like... it's not that hard, right?
I think the reason why people loved the mcu so much back then is cuz nobody was really expecting anything crazy yet we were getting great movie after great movie with a lot of hidden tie ins and a lot of thought into casting and overall story I think pivoting out of thanos has proven hard but it also does seem like the mcu in general has reduced in quality and with that thor movie it really shows they had a formula that worked and need to go back to that
Watered down villains and bathos comedy doesn't do it for me. That's why I've never been a fan of the MCU. It was and always will be overrated.
everything turn to trash since ENDgamE
I bet if we pay close attention and think critically we can see this same phenomena in everything from the apps we use to the systems we rely on to live.