Is the Jedi Way the Right Way?
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 12 ก.ย. 2024
- Eric and Aaron discuss The Jedi Order, their code, and if it's really the right way for Force Users to follow in a Galaxy Far, Far Away.
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Which Jedi do you hold up as an example for the rest of the order? I'll go first: Qui-Gon Jinn!
Ahsoka Tano!
Cal Kestis!!
Quinlan Vos, the man fooled the entire Jedi Order when he fell to the Dark Side and actively tried to take Sidious’ role in the galaxy. The Order needs that type of gumption
Caleb Dume/Kanan Jarrus
For me it's Obi Wan Kenobi. He's the ultimate Jedi. He suffered so many losses & was never tempted to turn to the Dark Side. He lost his master, his love, his Order, & his "Brother". Even when he lost his way for 10 years on Tatooine he never wavered to the Dark Side & his little adventure away from his solitude guided him back to Force. He also spent his last days training Luke in the ways of The Force & then became one with the Force himself, as a Force ghost - something only one other had been able to accomplish.
This feels like an appropriate time to mention one of my favorite star wars quotes of all time.
"Love doesn't lead to the dark side. Passion can lead to rage and fear, but passion is not the same thing as love. Controlling your passions while in love, that's what you should beware. But love itself will save you, not condemn you." - Jedi Exile Jolee Bindo
A beautiful quote
I feel like during the High Republic, and then the Clone Wars, the Jedi lost their way. Rafa Martez said it best when she said that Ahsoka was how she wished the Jedi would be. Kanan was obviously in a loving relationship with strong attachments and he was knighted by a manifestation of the force itself. The Force didn't seem to have a problem his attachment to Hera, but the order would have forbid it. To me, when Kanan is knighted is one of the most emotional moments in Rebels (and it had a lot of very emotional moments).
I think Kanan also has one of the most appropriate lessons of attachment prior to being knighted because he has to accept that he can't shield Ezra forever but he can guide him to be better. It's not letting go of that connection but it is dispelling the notion of absolute control or protection.
I think the Jedi way of the old order is wrong in it's ideology. I think, as many bad things, it started as a goodwilled thought to protect the galaxy and prevent darkside users to rise and cause havoc, but I think it is fundamentally wrong in what it thinks causes one to turn to the dark side. I think it also detaches you too much from the problems and people of the galaxy and causes a lack of understanding of what and who you are supposed to protect (for example how Luminara just went to the Martez sisters and was like "Yeah sorry we caused the death of your parents, but don't worry the force will be with you, bye!" and left those two kids without a hint of compassion alone to fend for themselves). It's not the attachments and the emotions that come with them that are wrong and causes one to turn to the dark side, it's the denial of them and the denial to explore and understand those emotions.
For example, if you're not allowed to form attachments your whole life, but then happen to get a taste of it in whatever form, the desire to keep it will rise inside you, followed by emotions that you where always pressured to repress. And as you were never allowed to explore these emotions and never taught how to cope with them properly, you don't know how to handle them in a healthy way which just causes them to build up and build up over time until they burst out, making you very susceptible to the dark side in the process.
Another example would be Anakin.
Usually (as everybody knows) Younglings are ripped away from their parents before they can form any attachments with them. But that is not so that the children are less susceptible to the dark side, but more susceptible of the indoctrination of the Jedi way, 'causing them to grow up without parental love and as they're shut in in the Jedi temple, they never see the parental love other kids recieve, so they don't form as much of a longing for it.
But then there's this kid that is not a baby and knows and loves his mother but is ripped away from her, then the person that could've filled in that empty spot as a father figure gets killed and leaves him alone with a longing for a parent and affection but is treated by the Order like every other youngling and partially even worse,- and that is where the Old Order was wrong. They should've seen that Anakin's case was special and that they can't treat him the exact same way as everybody else, but as they were too detached, they couldn't understand Anakin's situation and played right in the hands of Palpatine who saw that open spot in Anakin's heart and leached onto it, fanning the development of his arrogance, emotional instability as well as his inferiority complex from a young age on, which, assisted by the Orders disrespectful and condescending behavior towards Anakin and it's hypocrisy in the end, causes him to turn to the dark side. It wasn't his attachment to Padmé, it was that he didn't feel like there was anyone, except Ahsoka who was not present at the moment, in the Order, much less in the council, he could turn to about his situation. He tried with Yoda, but he was just like "Yeah the fear of loss is not good, death is natural, be happy for those around you that die and try to let go and don't be jealous." as even he was too stuck up on the Jedi Code and the detachment from everything.
Luke (at least in Legends, I'm not sure how it is with canon but so far it seems that he's building up the new order on the same flawed ideology of the old order), acknowledged those flaws and allowed his Jedi to have relationships and get married, he encouraged them to individualise themselves, decentralized the order far less and gave each Student far more personal freedom and responsibilities to take care of and allowed them to deal with their emotions. He abolished the Council as a high authority over the other Jedi and only implemented it as a council that just holds council with way less authority over the order as a whole. And unlike the old order where the Jedi shut themselves in behind their temple doors, Luke encouraged his students to go out and be involved in the galaxy, so that the Jedi actually get to know the people and cultures of the worlds they visit and stay and make friends with the citizens in peaceful times, so that they understand what they're protecting. He also abolished the tradition of taking Younglings in as babies and didn't deny them the contact to their parents, even allowing them to live in the Jedi temple if they so wished.
Edit: That ideology is btw what also bothers and worries me about what we've seen of Ahsoka in live action so far. She acts and feels like a generic Jedi (just throw any random Jedi in those scenes with her and it wouldn't feel much different) that just happened to survive for this long, as she seems to share the no attachment ideology, which makes no sense for her character at all.
So I hope I get pleasantly surprised when her show airs and that they manage to really capture her character and general essence.
Damn, Eric spitting bars about the force and those who are doomed to use it: “You didn’t win the genetic lottery, you won the genetic draft.”
I don't fully agree with it.
@@Dagenspear you are allowed to have your own opinion
@@Dagenspear why do you disagree? genuinely curious.
@@progfrogg Because I disagree with the notion that someone is to be a jedi or a sith based on being force sensitive. I think someone can be force sensitive and live their life more normally.
I will say, I was surprised to hear Eric say TLJ is one of his favorite SW movies when I thought I remember him saying he had mixed feelings on it not long ago😅
Well feelings change
From a Buddhist point of view, attachment =/= to Love and Friendship. Attachment comes when you want something that is inherently impermanent to be permanent (aka Anakin and not wanting to let anyone in his life die, which is impossible), versus being unattached (not detached, which means being cold and distant) in that Luke loved his father and wanted to save him, and was unattached to the outcome of the situation, know that he might not save his dad, and he and his dad might both die, but he didn't let that cause suffering in him.
This is something that feels like is missing from almost every discussion in the topic.
Luke gives into his visions just like Anakin did in Revenge of the Sith, and it still ended up happening because he acted on his visions ironically
He was always his father's son. Leia would have been the best Skywalker Jedi.
This is something that would've been neat to explore, to me, the idea of really living with the mistakes of his dad and how he reflects them.
@@Dagenspear I think that that is where Mandaorian timeline is headed
This was the best 20 minutes I didn't even know I needed! Thank you guys!! Love this new channel btw!!
Great discussion guy’s! Can’t wait for more episodes/video’s!
I love how Blind Wave truly understands how amazing Luke’s story was in the Last Jedi. I wish more people did. Eric explains it perfectly. The way Luke’s decision with Vader in ep 6 fits with the decision he made in 8 with Kylo.
I think not really at all. It kinda makes Luke out to be unstable. "Oh gosh this person could do something bad, well, obviously murder is the way to go here." Yes, I know he changed his mind. My issue is that if you expect me to think someone would do what Luke does, you're asking me to think that they're not mentally stable.
It's all conceptual either way, because the movie has no real regard for that moment, how he really got there, and what he REALLY learned from it, because there's no resolution to the idea that he's unstable in that way.
Let's not try too hard to defend the sequel trilogy
It wasn't I liked the sequels but lukes story sucked look at Finn and Ray they talked about luke to han has he was a myth? This magical God of a jedi and then when rey meant him he gaved up everything to be a jedi
Agreed!
@@TOXICYT2016 ok
Re: The Clone Wars, I fully believe that Sheev decided to use droids for the CIS specifically so the Jedi would be less motivated to stay neutral. Like, if those had been volunteers or conscripts the Jedi would have been pushing WAY harder for a peaceful resolution, but droids? Droids won't accept a surrender or recognize noncombatants, so fighting them is objectively the best way to keep the body count down. And then, of course, living soldiers on the Republic side so the Jedi on the front lines are still surrounded by anger and fear and pain, slowly pushing them farther and farther to the dark side. Like Bariss. Like Krell. Like Anakin.
My main gripe with the sequel trilogy/Mando lore is Luke seemingly trying to exactly recreate the old Jedi order. Yoda/Obi Wan's one lesson to Luke should have been "do things differently, try something else and don't replicate all the mistakes we made".
That's one of my favorite things about the Legends stories after Episode 6 when Luke creates the New Jedi Order, he learned much from the mistakes of the old Order and attempted not to repeat them. Padawan's are taken into the Jedi Academy at any age now and no longer it has to be a few year old baby or a kid who basically is ripped from their families, Luke encourages his students to love and he himself marries Mara Jade and has a son with her, the Jedi are encouraged to travel the Galaxy freely and live with the everyday people etc.
Luke's Jedi in the new Canon just seems the exact same as the old Order was.
@@dragonhunter1315
When Luke started his new Jedi order, nobody had even heard of the word "Padawan" or knew of the old order's issues with attachements, because it was the early to mid-90s, and the Prequels were still a good five years into the future.
Do you think the World Between Worlds concept could be brought to another period in the Skywalker saga? E.x. Yoda uses it in an unseen journey where he uses the WBW's and saves Mace Windu. I think it would be a cool way to "bring back the dead" characters that we only assumed were dead because it was an offscreen death. Thats why Ahsoka being saved by Ezra worked because she could have been viewed as dead (and we did think that).
Play the opera scene with Anakin and Palpatine from Episode III alongside Luke teaching Rey in Episode VIII. Skywalker learning from a Palpatine and a Palpatine learning from a Skywalker
I wouldn't say it was attachment that was Anakin's downfall, but rather the Jedi's teachings were inadequate to deal with attachment in a healthy way. Yoda's "advice" to Anakin was completely counter-productive. Hell, Yoda's teachings to Luke - "do or do not, there is no try", is not a constructive way to learn.
The Jedi devolved into repeating generic platitudes, instead of living in the moment and address what is currently happening with specific, appropriate actions, as Qui-Gon did.
I'm in the middle of catching up with all the animated stuff so I may be missing some context, but in the Anakin and Padme situation is it not an example of the Jedi's refusal to help him deal with his issues that is the problem instead of it simply being his attachment to her? In the prequel movies at least the Jedi (Yoda especially) do not come across as an group that are willing to help their members deal with trauma and personal issues.
It's kinda crazy to think that the Sith were correct in changing their ways because Darth Bane noticed the Sith would never achieve success as long as they remain stagnate. Yet the Jedi were complacent they didn't feel the need to grow or evolve in order find a better path; since their way had worked for as long as it did.
I've never heard the term "wam bam thank you ma'am" but I love it
I feel like the prequels showed us that the Jedi were wrong honestly. Not about everything, but enough to get clowned on and so blinded to the truth for so long. I think there is more to the Force to be explored. I hope as we go on we introduce many more paths of belief in the Force that aren’t fully leaning one way or the other.
11:58 the Archives*
to be fair, it WAS in the archives, but was erased lol
I really like the connection Aaron makes to the separation of church and state for the U.S., I find it really relevant to the Star Wars universe, namely in the prequels. The Jedi Order, who are essentially working for the Senate (the establishment, not the man 😅), while still are falling to their own hubris and abiding by the will of the force. Probably not the best way to put it, but still. Fantastic points all throughout!
I thought that was a pretty decent example brought up by Aaron.
I will admit that I’ve been pretty cold toward the sequel trilogy since it’s release, and I’m not going to immediately change my mind about the things I disliked. However, listening to Eric talk about the philosophy and choices and themes that The Last Jedi explored has given me a bit of newfound appreciation for some parts of them. I just want to say that I love listening to people speak passionately about their interests, even if I don’t fully agree with everything they say. I will be subscribing to this branch channel, and I hope you guys keep doing what you love.
The Last Jedi was very frustrating for me because I liked a lot of the philosophical things and themes brought up in the movie. It's annoying that it was bogged down by other things including Battlestar Galactica exodus 2.0.
Hey, nice profile pic handsome!
Even in '99 when I was 12 I realized that the failure of it all was on the Jedi. The Jedi were wrong. Ben was Wrong. Yoda was Wrong. It isn't attachment that is wrong, it is obsession. Had force sensitives been taught that attachment was ok, unavoidable in fact, and taught to let go, things would have been better. The sith are morally wrong, the Jedi are missing the point. That's why Grey Jedi make the most sense to me. BALANCE in the force isn't only Light, it has to be at peace with the dark. You don't balance with the dark by eradicating it, you balance it by accepting it. Like Aang in Airbender. He needed to give up his worldly connection to Katara, despite loving her. Not giving up that attachment is his failure. But that wasn't the real issue. The issue was not being told he could still be with Katara, but needs to accept that the relationship is second to his responsibility. The failure in teaching that lies with his teacher.
sorry, I'm with Iroh. Not giving up his attachement to Katara for more power is Aang's greatest achievement.
Love this new channel.
Love the channel!
When you see people like Jocasta Nu, Barriss Offee, Pong Krell, Ki Adi Mundi, etc you really see just how messed up that generation of Jedi was.
Buddhism has an interesting idea that I think may apply here. That of near enemies. For example the enemy of compassion is cruelty, but the near enemy is pity. Its an emotion that is similar but "tainted".
The near enemy of love is attachment. Attachment says, "what's in it for me". As a jedi, being able to serve and give without that sense of what's in it for me requires a sense of detachment from that personal involvement. Lack of attachment, doesn't mean a lack of love.
What happened to the Jedi was they became too strict and dogmatic. too beurocratic. they were more a police force rather than monks. Their efforts to keep their members away from attachments only caused them to snap and turn to the dark side. essentially trading one extreme for another. Dooku, Barriss, The inquisitorius and of course Vader himself. They should have been more grey in some areas. not in the force but in a lot of their policies. The biggest blunder was clumping attatchments with genuine feeling for someone.
I've always felt that where the Jedi failed and where Luke's order from legends succeeded was in teaching to control and accept emotions rather than deigning them altogether which as you said emotions are natural. If Anakin had anyone other than Palpatine to really talk to and help him instead of them saying, "no you must not have any emotion" things could have been very different. The jedi way and code as practiced by the republic era could work fine if they were secluded monks living and mediating in their temples away from everything and everyone else, but they don't, they put it upon themselves to be protectors as well which puts them out into the galaxy where they will inevitably face emotions which they haven't been raised or trained to probably deal with.
I agree with everything you said except for one thing. I dont remeber where its from, but george lucas said in some kind of an interview (dont remeber if verbal or written) that balance means an absence of the dark. Thats because there is no light side. There is THE force and there is the dark side wich is just a corruption of the force caused by dark side users actively defying the will of the force. The prophecy of the Chosen One is meant to say he will destroy the sith and therefore bring balance. So i dont really like the idea of Gray Jedi or jedi that use small bits of the dark side. Using the dark side is just defying the will of the force. I AM however for a more openminded a Jedi Order. For me the ideal Jedi was qui gon and/or Legends Luke Skywalker, since they both followed the will of the force without focusing to much on doctrines and rules.
Overall I agree but I think the idea of the Gray Jedi isn't that they're in between the dark side and a "the ligtht side", it's that they're different from "your regular Jedi" in that they don't conform to all the Jedi "doctrine" about what the dark side is and what leads to it, what "techniques" are "of the dark side" etc. Example: Let's say that the Sith are the ones who developed Force lightning and the Jedi wouldn't have because the Jedi wouldn't dabble in that area because it would go against the teachings of the old Jedi masters but then you get a Jedi who gets in a strange situation and he discovers a way to make Force lightning that's different from the Sith way* and he's fine so Force Lightning is no more "of the dark side" than Obi-Wan using the Jedi mind trick.
In other words, Qui Gon would have made a "good" Gray Jedi not because he's a dark character but because he was more flexible.
* Yes, I got that from A:TLA.
EDIT: That said, I'm not saying the Gray Jedi would not be at "greater risk of falling to the dark side", that would be a separate issue. You could still have that "Nice" Force Lightning is something the Gray Jedi use sparingly because it is still inviting the temptation, "the Sith way is quicker and easier".
@@Mansplainer2099-jy8ps Yeah i agree with you on that. But to me thats just being a proper jedi (without the complacency and arrognace of the prequel era jedi). Plo Koon had a technique like that and I would still say he was a regular jedi, probably even one of the best of his era. Luke (at least OG trilog and legends luke, not sequel disney luke) also fit that description. He reformed the jedi order and in some ways at the same time brought them back to their roots.
@@anteletica1148 _"But to me thats just being a proper jedi (without the complacency and arrognace of the prequel era jedi)."_
Exactly, which would be the argument:
The "classic" Jedi: _We're the proper Jedi._
The Gray Jedi: _No, we are._
The "classic" Jedi: _No, we are._
It's basically Catholics and Protestants.
I've always thought that the sith code makes a lot more sense. It's just a shame that the dark side corrupts their minds
the sith code in itself is not bad, just that they focus on negative emotions. what if a sith would follow the code but focus on love as example and wants to become stronger to protect what he loves. Would he still become a monster like palpatine or vader?
It can be argued that it's not the dark side, but the Sith code what rots the minds of Sith. Just like it was the Jedi code and not the light side that rotted the minds of the Jedi Order.
Both codes are just religious dogma that gets taken too far.
Seriously, it starts out with "Peace is a lie"
11:07 what? of course they are, what do you think the Force is?
I really prefer the way Luke changes his New Jedi Order vs. the Prequel era Jedi Order
3:28 - 5:38 THIS
expect the part where you talk about the balance in the Force
not everybody that "claims" to know it, is further from the truth, that just seems like you disregarding other people...
the Force being in Balance is nothing more than the Will of the Force being fulfilled
that simple, was that hard was it?
and can you precisely define what "will of the force being fullfiled" means? I'd be surprised if you could. Sure, a light side user will tell you that the force wants to protect that group of ppl. On the other hand, force will tell a sith that it wants those ppl to be offed cuz they might have something important in their possession. Idk smth like that. Force imo is meant to be an omnipotent semi sentient energy (literally magic in other words). You can learn how to use it better, study it so your understanding of it deepens. But it still is an energy of the universe. What ppl call Balance of the force is very dependent on their own values, and truths
Edit: in short, I fully belive that force is meant to be very vague
@@nightingale8178 what the Force actually wants it's not the point, I just said what the Force being in Balance means
but that example isn't good, the Force doesn't tell the Jedi one thing and the Sith something else.
Sith don't even listen to the Will of the Force, they corrupt the Force by going against it and using it for their advantage, that's what the Dark Side is, the opposite of Balance in the Force, it's corruption.
SPOILERS: within Jedi fallen order we see cal slowly lose the teachings of the Jedi order as he goes along such as have feelings for Merrin using a blaster and tapping into the dark side yet he is still a Jedi and still considers himself a Jedi he is a Jedi without a Jedi order therefore he is what a Jedi should be
Dave Filoni said the Jedi Order became too political. Obi Wan said "my allegiance is to the Republic, to democracy"
Shouldn't his allegiance be to the Force??
Jedi are good and it is the right way when it comes to helping others and being selfless and not having any desires though
Rey and Kylo Ren coming together in the sequel trilogy is mirroring Anakin and Padme but instead of selfish love Ben Solo gives his life selflessly and finishes what Anakin started perfectly tying it all together. Rey is able to cheat death by being saved by the last Skywalker (Kylo) In the words of Palpatine, ironic....
Didn't Jacen solo leave the order because he thought the Jefdi were too violent?
The devastation of Mandalore was due to the Jedi way.
I'm not sure that's true. It was infighting and Death Watch and Maul and old man Shreev. It's not even the first time Mandalore has been devastated due to infighting.
@@Carabas72 The event know as the “Devestation of Mandalore” was during the last Republic and Mandalorian war where the Jedi essentially did what the empire did and turned the entire planet into a desert planet, fracturing the Mandalorians until maybe now.
Edit: The Jedi had already won by this point in the war and nuked Mandalore for good measure.
imagine your a jedi and have sex with a chick and just walking out the room saying "May the force be with you, cause i wont." savage
Attachment isn't the same as caring. If Vader was attached to his son, it wouldn't be about Luke, but about what he wants.
That's not remotely the jedi way to murder someone before they do something bad. Luke is being attached and fearing the future in that scene. That's Luke's actual failure and that's why him blaming the jedi is nonsense in TLJ. What the jedi's real failures are and how Luke fully replicated them is almost never developed in the TLJ.
The issue with Luke's stupid thing about controlling the light is that no one has ever said that in the movies, so he's arguing a point that's never been actually a real concern.
The Jedi way might not be to murder someone before they do something bad but one could definitely argue that the Jedi way IS and some might say ALWAYS HAS BEEN to be aloof and therefore be able to make decisions that other beings would find impossible because of their attachments in order to secure the most good for the most amounts of people possible.
What makes the philosophies inherent in the Jedi/Sith split so endlessly compelling is that you can make an argument for either side. Was Luke about to kill his nephew because it was necessary to save the lives of billions or was he doing it because fear of inaction propelled him to believe that by doing a (relatively) small bad thing he could prevent much larger bad things from happening? Some Jedi would no doubt argue that destroying the evil before it had a chance to be fully realized was the right to do while others would no doubt argue that such a decision is the same sort of hubris based "the ends justify the means" thinking that leads many Jedi down a dark path.
As for Luke blaming the Jedi...I think it makes sense. After the OT Luke went around looking for Jedi history and learned about how the Jedi eventually fell (I concede that this is not covered at all in the sequels) and it no doubt left him with some mixed feelings about the order itself...ESPECIALLY after Kylo destroys his temple and he goes into self imposed exile. He's obviously become very embittered about the whole thing.
No one ever SAID "the Jedi think they own the light side of the force" in the movies but you have to admit that their courses of action tends to point one in the direction of concluding that's what they believed whether they said it or not.
@@w4rd069 I don't agree. I think it's quicker and easier to take the side of "this person could do bad, so killing them now would prevent that", but I think it's fear of the future to do so, at the expense of the moment.
Luke's feelings of his failure and how it really relates to the jedi's failure aren't really developed, so it's all just handwavey notions on what we may be getting from it. I think the deleted scene of Rey's 3rd lesson showcases that in Luke telling her that the jedi code would say to do nothing, and Rey rushing in is what the galaxy needs, except the jedi did rush into a war and this allowed them to be opened up to Palpatine's manipulations. So, what does Luke ACTUALLY THINK about the jedi and their failures? And how did Luke fail in a way that'd be the same? It's not really developed much. And how Luke would learn from that failure isn't really developed either.
Maybe some actions have suggested that direction. But I think the movie seems to treat it like it's something that was definitive, like "yeah, this is a thing that's been said before and you all accepted it", like it's teaching us something that wasn't done before, when the idea of the force flowing through everything has always been in Star Wars since the first movie.
@@Dagenspear Personally I tend to agree with the interpretation of the Jedi code that killing someone before they have a chance to do something bad shows a dangerous amount of attachment and fear to what is perceived to be a pre determined outcome, so at least you're not alone in that.
Usually when people discuss "attachment" when it comes to Jedi it revolves around relationships with other people but really "attachment" just means an innate fear of lack of control in any given situation. Anakin let his fear of Padme's future turn him into a monster. Luke nearly let his fear of Kylo's future do the same thing. BOTH of them gave into the idea (however temporarily for Luke) that "I can kill my way into doing a good thing." Its hubris. Its one of the oldest sins. Its directly contradictory to the Jedi ideal of "letting go of all you fear to lose" in the words of Yoda. The more I meditate on what it means to be a Jedi the more I'm convinced its simply "accepting what one cannot change and changing what one cannot accept." Can a Jedi prevent that pirate king from torturing that town of defenseless people? You betcha! Can a Jedi prevent someone he loves from dying of old age? No. Everyone dies eventually. That's just a path everyone takes. You should be happy with the time you have with your loved ones. You should not resent that which is natural. You should not seek the power to overcome death itself. You should not be playing god. That way leads to darkness.
As for the movies...I tend to agree they don't do a great job of drawing the lines between what Luke experienced and the conclusions that he came to. Its a real tragedy because legions of Star Wars fans therefore conclude that the Luke presented in the sequels was acting completely out of character for no reason. Which I can agree with to some extent but after seeing a lot of the content that's been put out having to do with what Luke was doing between ROTJ and the sequels I can definitely say it wasn't "without reason." The reasons just might not have been any good and the Luke we know from the OT may not have reacted the same way that the sequels insist he would have.
That doesn't stop the sequels from having a few bright moments that are actually interesting explorations of Luke's character if you buy into the flawed premises. Its why I appreciate Eric's perspective on the sequels. They were mainly garbage but he insists on finding the gems within the rubbish and that's valid.
@@w4rd069 My issue is that the work of other products to develop Luke isn't TLJ accomplishment. If newer things are well done, then I'd give that props for taking what was done by TLJ and making sense of it, but in viewing TLJ, I don't know what that movie's really doing with itself in that way.
I do like the idea of a damaged Luke in TLJ and I think Mark Hamill gives a performance that I can invest in. I can see an interesting story where Luke's own character based flaws lead him to messing up and he is afraid of himself. I think it's just not well written in the movie and those things aren't really explored and the character of Luke in it, to me, seems to more be banking on my emotional connection to the character as I know him from the OT to carry him through TLJ until the end, but I've already disregarded the character as a person at that point, because I'm entirely against his choices, so his big moment is something I'm annoyed at more than not and is symbolic of the failures of the character.
@@Dagenspear I can definitely understand that view and even sympathize with it a lot. As someone who was once heavily invested in the EU version of Luke from the novels, sequel Luke left a hell of a lot to be desired and I often find myself wishing the movies would have leaned more heavily onto that already written material that worked (wasn't perfect mind you but at least it worked). The sequels were not well written by any stretch of the imagination and while there's value in examining what they were TRYING to go for at the end of the day that's all they did...try...and ultimately fail.
Its sad when a multi million dollar project ends up being so shambolic that someone's rough draft looks good in comparison. I've heard elevator pitches from people who've never written anything in their life that sounded better than the sequels we got, lmao.
You both are completely full of it because you don't have the slightest inkling as to why the Jedi do what they must do. Not because you're not a Jedi, it's because you don't practice any of the paths like Buddhism for example that the Jedi are based upon. If only 900 year old master Yoda had had access to a couple of youtubers he could have corrected his & the thousands of years of practices by f-ing millions of Jedi. Damn! If only they could have seen the moronic reddit posts! You all have figured all of it out! The Jedi fell because Palpatine successfully implemented the rule of two. All Dark-side power was then his alone. While the light side was spread out amongst thousands. They had no defense, there was nothing they could have done let alone any series of practices that were at fault. Yoda & others sensed it, but it was to clouded by the Dark-side.
If Shreev was so powerful because of the rule of two, then why didn't Yoda and Obi-Wan get a massive powerboost once the Jedi also only had two people left?
The Force is infinite, and it doesn't matter how many people you divide ot over. The smallest fraction of infinity is still infinity.