Another part of a video series from Wordonfire.org. Bishop Barron will be commenting on subjects from modern day culture. For more visit www.wordonfire.org/
14 years later we see the truth that all oppression stems from the capitalist system that didn’t get rid of oppression and exploitation in fact it depends on those. Only socialism will help is move forward and away from exploitation. The church still supports the dying explorative system because it’s what it always does.
I never get tired of your opinion; it's always balanced and logical. It is amazing to me that this is already eleven years old. May you live long, healthy, and happy.
@philpil100 I like Chesterton in this regard much more than Dorothy Day. You're quite right in saying that they were critics of capitalism--as are the Popes of the twentieth century, if by "capitalism" you mean the market economy in an undisciplined form.
I wouldn't take Chrysostom's recommendation literally, but I would allow its challenge to reach into your heart. The key is detachment and having the constant openness to generosity. One way to start is by tithing, giving 10 percent of your income away to the poor.
Let's see the catholic church take responsibility for the many atrocities and child molestations and murders you've condoned. What a disgusting institution.
Wrong on every count. The Church is, first and foremost, a mystical body. And the Church existed long before there even were nation states and has been a sharp critic of nationalism.
I know this is a very old comment but still. A question i am thinking about quite a lot nowadays, i am a patriot and a catholic if there is a conflict between catholic teaching and what is best for my country, what is the right way to go. Also, if nationalism, which is basically the foundation of our modern nation states, is wrong in the eyes of the church what kind of state system would be the right one ? Should catholics try to establish a new roman empire that incorporates all catholics or what kind of state would be the right one ?
Hans Gruber nationalism becomes a problem if loyalty to country becomes more important than loyalty to Christ and his values. For example, if nationalism starts to create hostility and hatred towards people from other nations, then it’s a problem. We must see ourselves as Christians first. Loyalty to Christ and His Church above any other loyalty.
@riseaslarks Thanks for your engagement of this issue. Take a look at the closing sections of John Paul II's Centesimus Annus and you'll find the foundation for my argument. For the church, the market economy (the term it prefers to "capitalism") is the economic system that best corresponds to democracy in the measure that it is predicated upon the freedom and dignity of the individual. The church has no quarrel with "socialistic" elements within an overall market framework.
A quick answer: it's a little glib to talk about the Vatican just "giving away" its "vast fortune." I mean, how do you "give away" the Sistine Chapel? Or the Vatican Museums? Or St. Peter's? Much of the Vatican's wealth is in pretty much non-transferable form. Every year, the Pope has to raise money from around the Catholic world in order to make ends meet at the Vatican. And it has a bank because it's a sovereign state and needs money to operate.
Always agree with Bishop Barron, Keeping in mind that Socialism is plural (not at all singular), Including: Christian socialism, non-centralized Libertarian socialism, Worker's cooperatives, Public Utilities, credit unions. Most Churches and non-profits are socialized by the strict definition of not privatized with elected leaders and shared resources.
Not just a bank. One of the most corrupt in the world. While you were getting holy in Chicago, one of your homeboys was running that bank. Search Marcinkus Calvi Ambrosiani to find out exactly what the good Bishop is defending here.
Friend, what you're saying is true, but it's a bit of a banality. Sure, we're a fallen race and thus all of our institutions will be marked by corruption and imperfection. But that doesn't mean that we opt for moral equivalency. The church is sharply critical of errant forms of the market economy, but it holds that socialism is inherently problematic in a way that the market economy is not.
Socialism, like capitalism, needs to be tweaked to work effectively.The ideals, however, are worthy ones. Capitalism commodifies everything including all life forms in order to make money. The $ is the bottom line. Capitalists aim is to cut costs wherever possible for greater profits leading to indignity, exploitation, alienation, pollution, a drain on finite resources, a misdirection of efforts, time and resources for the sake of money rather than to meet human needs etc. Thats not 'bad' capitalism. That's just Capitalism.
You're drawing these contrasts way too sharply, I'm afraid. One cannot substitute money for God, but that doesn't mean that money making is, in itself, morally objectionable. The "love of money," as the Bible speaks of it, is a disordered attachment to money, but this is not necessarily the same as selling products for a profit! Otherwise, the only moral option would be some form of socialism or communism, and the church has explicitly condemned both.
The way it seems to me is that thereis a big difference between capitalism and corporatism. One can accept stability, the other strives ONLY for 'growth', and infestation of (or possession of) good ideas from smaller companies. The progressives and socialists love to confuse the two.
@manuelturcios Oh I don't know: freedom of speech, freedom of assembly, freedom of religion--just for starts. And I'm not being cavalier about the number. I'm referring to his countrymen.
Well, it's the language of the church's social teaching. Take a look at Rerum Novarum and Centesimus Annus, both of which contain explicit condemnations of socialism.
Binary thinking, anyone?! Friend, to say that socialism is oppressive is not to say for a moment that fascism isn't. I don't advocate either Lenin or Pinochet, either Castro or Mussolini. I'm with the Catholic social teaching tradition, which embraces the legitimacy of the market, as long as that market is situated within a moral framework.
(Continued from above) Fr. Barron, I write this not in a spirit of antagonism, but in a genuine desire to dialogue about an area fraught with difficulty for all of us who want to take Christ, his kingdom, and the church seriously. Again, I very much admire your teaching. You have strengthened my faith, and I look forward to learning more from you!
But friend, the official teaching of the church does endorse the market economy. To be sure, it advocates limits to it, but it holds its essential features to be morally upright, including the profit motive. Look to Centesimus Annus for the details. You're quite right in suggesting that the church never "identifies" with any political or economic arrangement, very much including liberal democracy.
Father, I think this topic could be better understood by examining a predominantly Catholic country that has a market-based economy. I’d use Ireland as an example. Ireland is not ‘socialist’. We are a market-based economy that has Catholic Social Teaching layered on top as our moral code. However, we are very different than the US. I speak from experience on that topic since I grew up in an Irish-Catholic neighborhood on the West side of Chicago attending Catholic schools (St. Angela grade school, Fenwick HS). Later I lived in Houston and now live in Cork. These were very different experiences. In Chicago, we were much more like Ireland. You can see the many ways in which Ireland embraces CST, yet the US does not. This last year, Ireland took in over 60,000 Ukrainian refugees despite a horrific housing crisis, while the US took in slightly more, yet is 66 times larger. We embraced the Catholic ideal of helping the less fortunate. That’s a tough sell in the US. CST teaches us that ‘Health Care is a Human Right’ and Ireland embraces that ideal. Anybody that would propose the American health care system here would not be taken seriously. It would be culturally unacceptable to be refusing health care to the less fortunate. In fact, the reason that I moved to Ireland was that Catholic values are actually practiced here, whereas the US seems much more motivated by a false god - money. I think that additional videos should point out how the US could move toward more fully embracing CST. There’s a lot of room for improvement.
No! The Church never identifies itself with any particular political or economic arrangement. It surveys them all and makes judgments, some relatively positive others relatively negative. But there is no properly Catholic political party.
As a libertarian Catholic, I believe government power to be one of the great human enemies of the individual and thus of the Church. The idea of it intervening to solve anything seems naive to me. Our entire history suggests that a governement, when allowed such an oppurtunity, cannot help itself from there on, and falls prey to the cyclical trend of empowerment over the freedoms of God's creatures. Like Tolkien's great ring of power, the action of government in a free and equal market only ever results in its using such power for itself, despite whatever intentions it might have begun with.
Manwe Elder A libertarian Catholic is an oxymoron. Catholicism is a collective faith built around the community of faith and the eucharist. Libertarianism is a secular philosophy, that probably grew out of Protestantism.
brendos444 Not really. I don't believe in granting government more power than is minimally needed for it to sustain a working society. How is that unCatholic?
Well Catholic social teaching, as Fr Barron states clearly, has a place for government intervention in the market and society where appropriate. What is anti-Catholic and anti-Christian is a libertarian philosophy that is radically individualistic at its core. People like you think that the Bible and Christianity teaches libertarian philosophy. It doesn't and libertarianism is a idol and it is dangerous and it is anti-Christian.
brendos444 You're putting words in my mouth. I never held that government didn't have a place. I just think its place should be very limited in order that free creatures can praise God with the least amount of interference from government as possible. I do think that the bible rather clearly informs us that power wasn't meant to be possessed in the way most governments possess it.
Unfortunately, when libertarians say "limited government" what they mean is protection of property rights and perhaps national defense. In other words, protection of the rich only. This ethos is against what is written in Scripture and against traditional Christian social teaching. I didn't say this, Fr Barron, Pope Francis and others did. You can have free enterprise, but this must be constrained by social institutions like the government and the Church.
@@134t7 first you have to be able to ignore some serious atrocities committed by the catholic church. They'll use religion to justify them, but really it's just evil with god in its pocket
Friend, did you listen to my comments about the negative dimensions of capitalism? Did you hear my endorsement of some of Moore's perspective? Did you attend to my rehearsal of John Paul's criticism of unfettered capitalism? Come on, you're making me out to be J..D. Rockefeller! That said, like it or not, the church's social teaching stands against socialism, defined as a state control of the economy. It favors what it prefers to call the market economy--with proper restraints in place.
I particularly liked the end, when you quoted JPII. Whether capitalism is in consonance with or against Catholic Social Teaching depends on ones definition. Sadly, people have various definitions of it. And sometimes, we could innocently be supporting the notion that stifles human freedom and steps on human dignity.
Father, I enjoy your videos out of what began as an educational interest to true, sincere belief in the Catholic religion. Yet, I am having trouble finding the top, must read speeches from popes from the 18th century to now. I was wondering what were some of you top picks? God bless.
very interesting. Especially now that I'm doing a course at my university that's called Political theology. We are going through books like The myth of the state as saviour by William T. Cavanaugh, De civitate Dei and some works by Yoder and Hauerwas. It's been really thought-provoking and it will be interesting to see what more we will deal with. Keep up the good work :D
Thank you Bishop Barron for all your videos. You are a blessing. Jesus never asked people to give Caesar their money so that Caesar could help the poor did He? Milton Friedman explained that the best way to help the poor is to give them the opportunity to pull themselves out of poverty. That's how my family did it. I'm afraid I don't have the faith in the human nature of the members of Government to take care of charity. I would not be setting up any situations where the Government becomes 'King' in a way, intervening in things that should be the responsibility of God-fearing people.
Entrepreneurship is socialism, you know. Socialism is realized when every job is it's own business. Capitalism fosters monopoly through exploitation - profit exclusion.
Friedman also said immigration is only good for the economy only when is illegal, because once they are legal the they become part of rights of society.
@runr100 Appreciate the condescension. My take is formed by the Catholic Church's densely textured social teaching. The Church enthusiastically embraces the market economy and its method of wealth-generation. It is, at the same time, concerned about ways that capitalism falls into corruption.
I just watched your video about Obama’s “Audacity of Hope” and your discussion about absolute truths and means/ends before watching this video, and it’s got me thinking. I would argue that both capitalism and socialism are means, and our ends ought to be God’s love and justice, service to the poor, and care for all of creation. The problem with America today is that we view capitalism as the end in and of its self; we basically worship wealth. Capitalism is efficient at producing things, but it’s only valuable if those things are meeting the needs of human beings. Conversely, the problem with the Soviet Union was that it worshipped socialism as an ideology rather than being guided by greater values of human dignity. However, we as Catholics need to be more open to utilizing socialist policies as means (government intervention in the economic, the right to housing and employment, living wage, universal healthcare, strong labor unions, strong environmental protections) to achieve the end which is acting out God’s love and justice. I don’t think I’m too far off from what the Church teaches.
I don’t trust our government to exercise Godly approach to it’s ineffective and wasteful approach. Individuals do a much better job of helping others at their discretion than our government.
Fr. Barron, thank so much for your videos. Your articulation of the faith is highly winsome-your explication of Thomas Aquinas is deeply moving! However, I have some reservations about your claims regarding capitalism, socialism, and their relation to Christianity. You argue that capitalism, when properly regulated, is reconcilable with Christianity. (Continued below)
A perfectly reasonable argument, as always. I would also add my concern: Once government has been given the tools to intervene "when gross injustice occurs", there needs to be some sort of legal guarantee that they will not overstep their authority. This is the concern, I believe, of the Founding Fathers in their limitations of government, and that still seems to be at the center of many debates among Americans.
Thanks father for another excellent video. I love Michael Moore and thank God for the spirit of concern for his fellow man an catholic witness. I'm a Canadian, and he rather likes quite a bit about our modified market system. You have encouraged me to look up this encyclical and I must say that pope JPII's "Laborem Exercens" "On Human Work" is one of the very best things I have ever read on the whole domain of work and economies. A person couild get pretty well educated on your videos alone.
Bishop, what do you think of Bishop Fulton Sheen's position on capitalism and communism as opposed to distributism and ownership of the means of production by the individual(s) that participate in the labor and management and not a capital class?
Father, I've listened to the talk you have posted on the website on this issue, and I like it very much, but I have one concern/disagreement with it. You mentioned that profit is the only legitimate measurement of the growth of an economy. My concern is that profit, if defined strictly in terms of monetary gain, fails to take into account the unpaid housework/ other unpaid work that people, mostly women, do. Is there some church-approved way to redefine growth which takes this into account?
I agree that it does call for greater individual action and responsibility. However, it also calls into question the very nature of the government and the system.
You can help the poor with not only treasure but with your time and talent. We never seem to have time and we never seem to know what talents we have....back to only thinking about treasure.
'It's the love of money that is the root of all evil'. This is stated in Timothy and Jesus clearly tells the young man that it's easier for a camel to fit through the eye of a needle (Meaning impossible) than for a rich man to go to heaven. These two are related: The pursuit of money, power and status (Google 'The love of the world, bible') are in direct opposition to spiritual development and the love of God." Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him."
The problem with Capitalism is precisely this idea that a corporation exists solely to make profit and drive its competition out of business. I remember reading that in the Middle Ages guilds were formed in trades precisely so that fellow members of a craft would NOT drive their fellow craftsmen out of business, as that was considered against neighbourly love and justice. The problem with Capitalism is the same as the problem with Darwinism - the idea that "competition" is a creative force, that order can arise out of chaos. There's a good dialogue in Plato between an Athenian and a Spartan, I believe, where the Spartan insists that the first duty of a State is to establish itself as ready to make war on its enemy, but the Athenian wisely insists that a State is built primarily on a principle of order, not disorder; peace, not war. Similarly, an ECONOMY must be built first and foremost on a principle of peace and CO-OPERATION, not war and competition. This is the evil of Capitalism.
Jack Collinson Perfectly said. I’m neither a capitalist nor communist and advocate for a third position. I think it’s best to call it Guild Syndicalism (economic system) with its aim to achieve a Meritocracy (political philosophy). We should have rational cooperation, not “rational self interest (capitalism)” or complete self sacrifice (communism). A synthesis between capitalism and socialism and individualism and collectivism.
I'd say the Medieval Guild System has both good and bad qualities. For the good, you are right that they organized themselves to make sure they didn't put fellow guild brothers or people from other guilds out of business (for example a weaver may not make new clothes because that would put the cloth mender out of business). They also gave proceeds to the poor, took care of the widows and orphans of dead guild members, ensured quality control, and pooled their resources to build cathedrals in their towns which everyone in the community got utility out of. For the bad, they created artificial monopolies (for example, you could not legally work as a cobbler in a town unless you belonged to the shoemaker's guild), they forbid the use of inventions or innovations (increasing productivity means less work for the guild brothers), and they restricted business so no one person could truly excel. Under a Guild System, an industrial revolution would be impossible.
@gilcheque I think the answer to that question would vary depending on who is asking. Capitalism benefits the rich more than it does the poor or the middle class, each of whom would tell you different things about the capitalist model based on how they benefit from it.
Luke 12:15 And he said to them, “Take care, and be on your guard against all covetousness, for one's life does not consist in the abundance of his possessions.”
It is not so much the idea of "profit as measurement" that I'm taking issue with, but how "profit" can be expanded to measure all wealth while still serving as a useful measure of economic growth.
I am curious as to what the church has to say about government assistance to the poor and the external issues (besides perhaps the poor themselves prolonging and creating their own problems) that may work to keep or make it more difficult to move from a lower to a higher economic class?
In Socialism and communism, the Beatles, for example, never would have made it. There would be no reason. Capitalism is not inherently evil. Communism is.
I would love to hear updated commentary on this Bishop, now that Pope Francis has spoken out so much on this. Rather, can you point me to where you have? Thanks.
lucky your family has not been touched by these guys. Here is a message to Barron: yea , like your cover-ups of rapes. There are still rapists in the church right now. We are connected. Lay people are fleeced by the clergy. One reason some countries do not trust the Vatican is because you help rapists escape to the Vatican, to evade the law. You piece of garbage you. You will become a cardinal one day, and like cardinal Law and cover up the actions of priests who rape. You are already doing that. The present pope is just a sly salesman who has done nothing but keep the Vatican corporation operating, increasing its wealth and power. You have nothing to do with Christ and most Catholics know that. We remain in the church to try to catch you guys doing more mean stuff. There are good priests but they are too honest and are never promoted like you have been.
Bish, you'll notice that the movement of human beings to find work is from Catholic countries to Protestant countries- (South America to North America, Italy, France and Ireland to England and Germany)
A mighty subtle distinction. I don't think you replied convincingly to Mr. Black's concerns involving the Catholic Church's very tradition: Aquinas being against usury, Augustine's City of Man v. City of God, let alone the Bible passages in Luke 16 : 10 - 16 : 15 about a rightly ordered soul not having "two masters" and the love of God and love of money (profit motive) as being mutually exclusive. Best, A Concerned Catholic
@1melianthus Thank you for being a voice of economic reason here. In other TH-cam clips, Father mentions that scientists should stay out of theological debates because they aren't well schooled. Economics is by far the most important issue affecting our lives, and the Catholic Church has decided to voice its opinion without educating itself. Father, let's start very basic: What creates wealth? Hundreds of years ago, everyone was poor. Now some countries lag behind while others are very we
@riseaslarks I think your series of posts here makes a lot of sense -- especially about the different assumptions capitalism and Christianity make about human nature. Capitalism is at heart social darwinism, human beings as inherently and unavoidably in competition. I believe somewhere in his corpus C.S. Lewis says something to the effect that the centre of the devil's philosophy is that all things are in competition, that the universe is a kind of zero sum game.
"It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God." Matthew: 19: 23 "If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven." Matthew 19:21 "Whoever has two tunics is to share with him who has none, and whoever has food is to do likewise." Luke 3:11 "But if anyone has the world's goods and sees his brother in need, yet closes his heart against him, how does God's love abide in him?" 1 John 3:17 "No one can serve two masters, for either he will hate one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve god and money." Matthew 6:24 "The root of all evils is the love of money." 1 Timothy 6:10 "And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common." Acts 4:32 "And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all." Acts 4:33 "Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold" Acts 4:34 "And laid them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need." Acts 4:35
the issue was the same. there were very few controls on the lenders in the housing market loan administration. dot coms were not valued objectively either, and so when their real value was determined at a much lower price, investors were left with losses and low value stocks, much as banks were left with unpaid loans, leaving many banks in deep financial crisis.
Bobby, I don't think Jesus' statement was limited to the negative exploitative effects of Roman imperialism over the Jewish people of his time but like all his parables was meant to demonstrate the lack of focus on the "one thing needful." Rich men are consumed with the cares of this world and his kingdom was not of this world. The lesson is about the treasures of the heart. Store up for yourselves treasures in heaven. It didn't matter how one came about these worldly riches, then as now.
I don't think the market will ever be situated within a moral framework. But what do you think of Jesus' statement of the "eye of a needle" concerning the rich in this context?
I've noticed that none of the posts have referred to the latest encyclical, "Caritas in veritate" - the beautiful Encyclical Letter of His Holiness Benedict XVI that takes Rerum Novarum and Centissimus Annus, which have been mentioned, to the next level - a system that Chesterton and Belloc called Distributism.
“It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the gates of heaven”. It’s interesting that Moore brought up that passage. Being that Michael Moore is worth like 50 million I wonder if he considers himself a rich man.
I looked through the comments, but I didn't see any discussion of the Catholic teaching of distributism as it relates to socialism v. capitalism. Is it just that this is not a feasible option any more?
Matthew 25“Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more important than food, and the body more important than clothes? 26Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? 27Who of you by worrying can add a single hour to his life?
(Continued from above) Where the capitalist system depends on each individual looking first to his or her own interests, the Gospel urges us to look first to the needs of the other. We are not fundamentally competitors; we are brothers and sisters whose relationships are characterized by shalom rather than self-interest. Furthermore, the law under capitalism functions not to bring us into closer communion with one another but rather to protect my property from you and vice versa. (Cont. below)
Father Barron, I think there is a distinction between the term "market economy" and a "Capitalist economy". A market economy is not necessarily capitalist. Capitalism only really took shape following the industrial revolution when significant production technology a and logistical technology emerged. Here is when workers and capital were separated. Workers were treated by capitalists as another input in production - just like electricity and other materials. you can have a market economy that isn't capitalist. Look at the old trades such as blacksmiths etc. These were often family run businesses, whose connection was to their own community. There were, to be sure, market forces affecting supply and demand. But this was a more personal economy where a close relationship between buyers and sellers existed - they were neighbours, parishioners etc. They knew one another and that helped ride out the volatility inherent in a market economy. There is no going back to this kind of market economy. However, in a capitalist world, you are correct in saying that government, churches and other social institutions must intervene to ensure that the economy is humane and is underpinned by strong morals. In the post-Reformation plural society the West has become, these common morals are no longer there. That is the heart of the problem in my opinion. How do we restore the common life between men, where a market economy can flourish? The Reformation let the cat out of the bag I'm afraid. Since then all authority seems to be questioned - whether ecclesial or governmental. Secularism is Protestantism fully played out. How can we overcome this? that is the question for our times
Easy, the vast majority of humanity becomes more intellectual and adopt reality with a Secular Humanist life stance. What is reality? Reality is Science. Technocracy is the future and capitalism is gone because it is straight out manipulative and destructive towards society and the planet. Just look at the For Profit colleges and ridiculous high prices for college degrees. Chinese college students end up working minimum wage and their degree is just "paper" in a capitalist world where everyone seeks the same materialistic dream. Yes, China is State Capitalist. The United States is becoming a corporatocracy. Thankfully there are universities in Scandinavia and Germany that have free education. The future will be about Open/Free Source Movements where people can go and create their own cars, Android Roms, food production, etc. Why? Because they will have the knowledge of Science.
i think karl marx was wrong when karl marx attacked the private ownership system in his communist book.... Karl Marx should have attacked the Education system and encouraged the Free and Open Education system available to the masses.... that should have been his philosophy...
@brendos444 why do you believe going back to a market economy without capitalism is not possible? In the absence of banking, finance and usury large corporations would be mired in a calamity with over 100million unemployed people who couldn't consume because of lack thereof consumer demand? Are corporations job creators?
Father Barron,thank you for your video and your thoughts.Having said that,I would like to suggest that you read GK.Ghesterton,or Hillair Belloc and other works of "Distributism".This model of economics has been found productive,efficient,and moral.Check out " The Mondragon experiment" on TH-cam. Short Documentary!
Bishop, I hope you’re having a wonderful day. Not sure if you will get the chance (or the time) to read my comment, but I hope you do because I’d love to hear your thoughts on this issue. I think I can agree on the fact that capitalism itself is not the problem. But what about consumerism? Do you think there is a difference between the two, and if so, would consumerism perhaps be more relevant to the camel-needle statement, since it’s grounded on a belief that happiness, identity, and purpose can be “bought”? I think that Jesus never really attacked economic or political systems per se (including, for example, patriarchy and slavery), perhaps because when people begin to enter into relationship with Christ, and their will begins to conform to God’s will, everything else sort of falls into place and all power dynamics become loving as opposed to oppressive or exploitative. As such, capitalism as a system is only a problem when it is divorced from God (just like everything is a problem when divorced from God). I would even exaggerate slightly here and say that a dictatorship run by saints may ultimately be preferable to a democracy run by demons (hyperbole, of course). So capitalism is the best system we have come up with so far. The thing is, I can’t wrap my head around the fact that today it seems to be acceptable for me, as a catholic, to be largely ignorant of the impact that consumerism can have on: 1- my soul (since it is corruptive to hoard possessions and overindulge in luxury, to be greedy and vain, and to run my work around the maximization of profit at the expense of the health of the planet or the health of society, etc) 2- other people (for example, buying products that are only available to me for so cheap because someone at the other side of the world is paying the price by sacrificing their childhood, health, dignity, etc. to produce that product). (Watch “story of stuff” for a good example of this) Basically what I’m trying to say is that I believe that the culture of consumerism is a problem. It’s possible to live in and support a capitalist system, and to consume moderately, prudently, and consciously. However, it’s equally possible to dismiss the importance of moderation, prudence, and community when living in a culture that equates capitalism with consumerism and applauds the pursuit of wealth as the most holy of pursuits. What is the role of asceticism in the life of the lay catholic in the 21st century? What is the role of abnegation? Is vanity O.K now? Avarice? Pride? Because the glorification of consumerism waters down those vices and makes them seem less fierce. What would Jesus do, if He were walking around a shopping mall today, with advertisements on every side telling his children they’re imperfect and need to buy their way to perfection through consumer products, plastic surgery, and Instagram likes? I believe we are desperately in need of re-examining these things. I feel like no one wants to talk about these things anymore. “Just give a bit to the poor and you’ll be fine. Be generous, but define generosity yourself. It doesn’t matter if you’re vain, greedy, and self-indulgent.” That’s the kind of response I’ve been getting (indirectly) from the Catholic Church these days, in the name of anti-radicalism and modernity. I’d like to know how you feel about this. P.S I’m a huge fan of yours, from all the way in the Middle East (Lebanon). You’ve had a huge impact on my life, and my mother’s as well. I live in a significantly different environment than you do, but I hope you’ll be happy to know that your words are touching the hearts of people all the way here.
I think a good lesson here is that completely unfettered free-market economies undermine Catholic Social Teaching. The answer, as with most things in life, lies somewhere in the middle. Hence, the U.S. has been known to be a mixed-market economy, despite what our two dominant political institutions like to argue back and forth. The leads me to my second and final point; Catholic social teaching is not meant for anyone political ideology and or party, but for all humans to practice in love with one another.
The Word expounded in the Fire indeed. If you want to be rich, maybe think *Matt **25:40* at the same time you’re filling your own pocket. _We all need to do this._
I'm not defending socialism per se, but it does seem like a pretty specious argument to go from the observation that the implementation of socialism, or variants of socialism, failed in spectacular fashion in a handful of countries necessarily implies that socialism itself is completely unworkable. Just because I fell down the first 5 times I tried waterskiing didn't mean I was incapable of waterskiing. To be fair, different variants of socialism have been applied reasonably successfully.
Justice is justice; it must apply to all, although what would be the context of justice for the working class? There could be no context of justice for it, as justice does not pertain to any particular condition, or conditions, such as financial status, or anything else. Given this actuality, your comment is meaningless.
What did that have to do with the housing market crash? The dot com bubble was before the housing bubble. The recession we are in was created by a bubble fueled by too much consumer debt. There was no regulator that saw a problem with the bubble. If you want to know what really happened, watch a video of the man who predicted the crash. He illustrates how loose borrowing standards and easy money fueled the bubble. look up this video-- "Peter Schiff Was Right 2006 - 2007 (2nd Edition) "
Wow. I was certainly pondered by Pope Leo's quote. Something that I have wrestled with in the bible is Jesus Christ lack of say on politics and economy.
Angelo Cabral Christianity really isn't a religion rooted in politics unlike Islam. I mean Muhammad commanded armies and issued decrees. This contrasts with Jesus' example in John 6:14-15 where he rejects the idea of becoming a political leader.
If you consider Plato's work, someone has to be a political leader; because very few are in fact born to lead. The objection we would have is obviously a political leader that's evil.
Matthew 6:19-21 “Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal, but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.
Fr Barron, at the end if this video advises you to go buy John Paul II's Centessimus Annus. I have good news for you; you don't need to buy it, you can download it for free at the Vatican site - (vatican.va) or just google the encyclical name. You can download Leo XIII's Rerum Novarum in the same way. Both documents are still relevant and fresh
@DemCatBo As far as the Holy Catholic Church itself, one if it's greatest champions of the poor, Archbishop Oscar Romero, was assassinated for his direct opposition to the imperialistic capitalism that was economically enslaving the people of El Salvador. If the church's position is a belief in the free market but a healthy wariness of it's corruptions, then why would it oppose a system in which private ownership of means of production is forefitted to control of the means by the masses?
Another liberal catholic here. How, Father, do you not see the wealth (pun intended) of economic injustices in this country? How do you not see the abuse by those who are earning gazillions per minute off of the backs of their miserably paid workers? I’m deeply disturbed by your opinions with regard. May God bless you abundantly.
This was a terrific video in terms of learning which is the Church's real position on the economy and the state. Yet, we have to be careful, not all socialism is Marxist, there are social democracies, there are also the Nordic economic models. This distinction is neither made by Michael Moore nor Father Barron.
@wordonfirevideo Is there any other possible interpretation of Jesus' reaction to the money-lenders and merchants in the temple other than being anti-capitalist? The Temple was a holy place, and He got upset because they were doing something unholy in it, that being commerce. He didn't ask the lepers and blind for their health care providers, which would indicate an inclination towards universal health care.
@manuelturcios Come on, man! You're seriously proposing Hugo Chavez as a political model? He has systematically denied the human rights of millions.
10 years later. We now see the result of Hugo Chavez policies in Venezuela.
10 years later… 95% living on powerty.
14 years later we see the truth that all oppression stems from the capitalist system that didn’t get rid of oppression and exploitation in fact it depends on those. Only socialism will help is move forward and away from exploitation.
The church still supports the dying explorative system because it’s what it always does.
@@CPATuttleis it Chavez's policies, or America's policies against Venezuela!?
@@growtocycle6992 Chavez policies. I hope you’re kidding. Socialism doesn’t work
I never get tired of your opinion; it's always balanced and logical. It is amazing to me that this is already eleven years old. May you live long, healthy, and happy.
@philpil100 I like Chesterton in this regard much more than Dorothy Day. You're quite right in saying that they were critics of capitalism--as are the Popes of the twentieth century, if by "capitalism" you mean the market economy in an undisciplined form.
I wouldn't take Chrysostom's recommendation literally, but I would allow its challenge to reach into your heart. The key is detachment and having the constant openness to generosity. One way to start is by tithing, giving 10 percent of your income away to the poor.
Let's see the catholic church take responsibility for the many atrocities and child molestations and murders you've condoned. What a disgusting institution.
Yes! Jesus was interested in the heart or spirit of our actions.
Wrong on every count. The Church is, first and foremost, a mystical body. And the Church existed long before there even were nation states and has been a sharp critic of nationalism.
I know this is a very old comment but still. A question i am thinking about quite a lot nowadays, i am a patriot and a catholic if there is a conflict between catholic teaching and what is best for my country, what is the right way to go. Also, if nationalism, which is basically the foundation of our modern nation states, is wrong in the eyes of the church what kind of state system would be the right one ? Should catholics try to establish a new roman empire that incorporates all catholics or what kind of state would be the right one ?
Hans Gruber good question ?
Hans Gruber nationalism becomes a problem if loyalty to country becomes more important than loyalty to Christ and his values. For example, if nationalism starts to create hostility and hatred towards people from other nations, then it’s a problem. We must see ourselves as Christians first. Loyalty to Christ and His Church above any other loyalty.
@riseaslarks Thanks for your engagement of this issue. Take a look at the closing sections of John Paul II's Centesimus Annus and you'll find the foundation for my argument. For the church, the market economy (the term it prefers to "capitalism") is the economic system that best corresponds to democracy in the measure that it is predicated upon the freedom and dignity of the individual. The church has no quarrel with "socialistic" elements within an overall market framework.
A quick answer: it's a little glib to talk about the Vatican just "giving away" its "vast fortune." I mean, how do you "give away" the Sistine Chapel? Or the Vatican Museums? Or St. Peter's? Much of the Vatican's wealth is in pretty much non-transferable form. Every year, the Pope has to raise money from around the Catholic world in order to make ends meet at the Vatican. And it has a bank because it's a sovereign state and needs money to operate.
Always agree with Bishop Barron, Keeping in mind that Socialism is plural (not at all singular), Including: Christian socialism, non-centralized Libertarian socialism, Worker's cooperatives, Public Utilities, credit unions. Most Churches and non-profits are socialized by the strict definition of not privatized with elected leaders and shared resources.
Not just a bank. One of the most corrupt in the world. While you were getting holy in Chicago, one of your homeboys was running that bank. Search Marcinkus Calvi Ambrosiani to find out exactly what the good Bishop is defending here.
@@MrArtbyart Let's socialize everybody then. No more federal income tax!
Friend, what you're saying is true, but it's a bit of a banality. Sure, we're a fallen race and thus all of our institutions will be marked by corruption and imperfection. But that doesn't mean that we opt for moral equivalency. The church is sharply critical of errant forms of the market economy, but it holds that socialism is inherently problematic in a way that the market economy is not.
Socialism, like capitalism, needs to be tweaked to work effectively.The ideals, however, are worthy ones. Capitalism commodifies everything including all life forms in order to make money. The $ is the bottom line. Capitalists aim is to cut costs wherever possible for greater profits leading to indignity, exploitation, alienation, pollution, a drain on finite resources, a misdirection of efforts, time and resources for the sake of money rather than to meet human needs etc. Thats not 'bad' capitalism. That's just Capitalism.
You're drawing these contrasts way too sharply, I'm afraid. One cannot substitute money for God, but that doesn't mean that money making is, in itself, morally objectionable. The "love of money," as the Bible speaks of it, is a disordered attachment to money, but this is not necessarily the same as selling products for a profit! Otherwise, the only moral option would be some form of socialism or communism, and the church has explicitly condemned both.
The way it seems to me is that thereis a big difference between capitalism and corporatism. One can accept stability, the other strives ONLY for 'growth', and infestation of (or possession of) good ideas from smaller companies.
The progressives and socialists love to confuse the two.
The early Christians were communists
Slaves were considered a product 400 years ago.
This channel is simple propaganda
@manuelturcios Oh I don't know: freedom of speech, freedom of assembly, freedom of religion--just for starts. And I'm not being cavalier about the number. I'm referring to his countrymen.
Well, it's the language of the church's social teaching. Take a look at Rerum Novarum and Centesimus Annus, both of which contain explicit condemnations of socialism.
How about socialized health care?
I like how you mind to both sides of every argument
Binary thinking, anyone?! Friend, to say that socialism is oppressive is not to say for a moment that fascism isn't. I don't advocate either Lenin or Pinochet, either Castro or Mussolini. I'm with the Catholic social teaching tradition, which embraces the legitimacy of the market, as long as that market is situated within a moral framework.
(Continued from above) Fr. Barron, I write this not in a spirit of antagonism, but in a genuine desire to dialogue about an area fraught with difficulty for all of us who want to take Christ, his kingdom, and the church seriously. Again, I very much admire your teaching. You have strengthened my faith, and I look forward to learning more from you!
Very enlightening, an excellent discussion. Fr. Barron is a genius
But friend, the official teaching of the church does endorse the market economy. To be sure, it advocates limits to it, but it holds its essential features to be morally upright, including the profit motive. Look to Centesimus Annus for the details. You're quite right in suggesting that the church never "identifies" with any political or economic arrangement, very much including liberal democracy.
Have you ever read Tom Woods before? He writes a lot about this.
Father,
I think this topic could be better understood by examining a predominantly Catholic country that has a market-based economy. I’d use Ireland as an example.
Ireland is not ‘socialist’. We are a market-based economy that has Catholic Social Teaching layered on top as our moral code. However, we are very different than the US. I speak from experience on that topic since I grew up in an Irish-Catholic neighborhood on the West side of Chicago attending Catholic schools (St. Angela grade school, Fenwick HS). Later I lived in Houston and now live in Cork. These were very different experiences. In Chicago, we were much more like Ireland.
You can see the many ways in which Ireland embraces CST, yet the US does not. This last year, Ireland took in over 60,000 Ukrainian refugees despite a horrific housing crisis, while the US took in slightly more, yet is 66 times larger. We embraced the Catholic ideal of helping the less fortunate. That’s a tough sell in the US.
CST teaches us that ‘Health Care is a Human Right’ and Ireland embraces that ideal. Anybody that would propose the American health care system here would not be taken seriously. It would be culturally unacceptable to be refusing health care to the less fortunate. In fact, the reason that I moved to Ireland was that Catholic values are actually practiced here, whereas the US seems much more motivated by a false god - money.
I think that additional videos should point out how the US could move toward more fully embracing CST. There’s a lot of room for improvement.
No! The Church never identifies itself with any particular political or economic arrangement. It surveys them all and makes judgments, some relatively positive others relatively negative. But there is no properly Catholic political party.
Gosh, you would sure prefer a real counter-argument to character assassination.
As a libertarian Catholic, I believe government power to be one of the great human enemies of the individual and thus of the Church. The idea of it intervening to solve anything seems naive to me. Our entire history suggests that a governement, when allowed such an oppurtunity, cannot help itself from there on, and falls prey to the cyclical trend of empowerment over the freedoms of God's creatures. Like Tolkien's great ring of power, the action of government in a free and equal market only ever results in its using such power for itself, despite whatever intentions it might have begun with.
Manwe Elder A libertarian Catholic is an oxymoron. Catholicism is a collective faith built around the community of faith and the eucharist. Libertarianism is a secular philosophy, that probably grew out of Protestantism.
brendos444 Not really. I don't believe in granting government more power than is minimally needed for it to sustain a working society. How is that unCatholic?
Well Catholic social teaching, as Fr Barron states clearly, has a place for government intervention in the market and society where appropriate. What is anti-Catholic and anti-Christian is a libertarian philosophy that is radically individualistic at its core. People like you think that the Bible and Christianity teaches libertarian philosophy. It doesn't and libertarianism is a idol and it is dangerous and it is anti-Christian.
brendos444 You're putting words in my mouth. I never held that government didn't have a place. I just think its place should be very limited in order that free creatures can praise God with the least amount of interference from government as possible. I do think that the bible rather clearly informs us that power wasn't meant to be possessed in the way most governments possess it.
Unfortunately, when libertarians say "limited government" what they mean is protection of property rights and perhaps national defense. In other words, protection of the rich only. This ethos is against what is written in Scripture and against traditional Christian social teaching. I didn't say this, Fr Barron, Pope Francis and others did. You can have free enterprise, but this must be constrained by social institutions like the government and the Church.
Oh it's a document. I still look for forward to reading it. Thank you!
Great videos, I have really been enjoying them. I am tempted to learn more of the Catholic faith.
Cool! Nice to know, I'm a catholic and I've been trying to learn more about the basics of the Catholic faith as well!
@@134t7 first you have to be able to ignore some serious atrocities committed by the catholic church. They'll use religion to justify them, but really it's just evil with god in its pocket
It is just so refreshing listening to you.
Because there is a distinction between "endorsing" and "identifying with!"
Friend, did you listen to my comments about the negative dimensions of capitalism? Did you hear my endorsement of some of Moore's perspective? Did you attend to my rehearsal of John Paul's criticism of unfettered capitalism? Come on, you're making me out to be J..D. Rockefeller! That said, like it or not, the church's social teaching stands against socialism, defined as a state control of the economy. It favors what it prefers to call the market economy--with proper restraints in place.
I particularly liked the end, when you quoted JPII. Whether capitalism is in consonance with or against Catholic Social Teaching depends on ones definition. Sadly, people have various definitions of it. And sometimes, we could innocently be supporting the notion that stifles human freedom and steps on human dignity.
Father, I enjoy your videos out of what began as an educational interest to true, sincere belief in the Catholic religion. Yet, I am having trouble finding the top, must read speeches from popes from the 18th century to now. I was wondering what were some of you top picks? God bless.
very interesting.
Especially now that I'm doing a course at my university that's called Political theology.
We are going through books like The myth of the state as saviour by William T. Cavanaugh, De civitate Dei and some works by Yoder and Hauerwas.
It's been really thought-provoking and it will be interesting to see what more we will deal with.
Keep up the good work :D
Hi Bishop
I have tried to look for the sintesis you recommended at the end but I can't find it
Would you mind sharing a link to it?
Thank you Bishop Barron for all your videos. You are a blessing.
Jesus never asked people to give Caesar their money so that Caesar could help the poor did He? Milton Friedman explained that the best way to help the poor is to give them the opportunity to pull themselves out of poverty. That's how my family did it. I'm afraid I don't have the faith in the human nature of the members of Government to take care of charity. I would not be setting up any situations where the Government becomes 'King' in a way, intervening in things that should be the responsibility of God-fearing people.
Entrepreneurship is socialism, you know. Socialism is realized when every job is it's own business. Capitalism fosters monopoly through exploitation - profit exclusion.
Friedman also said immigration is only good for the economy only when is illegal, because once they are legal the they become part of rights of society.
@@JorgeHernandez-oh7xv huh?
@runr100 Appreciate the condescension. My take is formed by the Catholic Church's densely textured social teaching. The Church enthusiastically embraces the market economy and its method of wealth-generation. It is, at the same time, concerned about ways that capitalism falls into corruption.
I just watched your video about Obama’s “Audacity of Hope” and your discussion about absolute truths and means/ends before watching this video, and it’s got me thinking. I would argue that both capitalism and socialism are means, and our ends ought to be God’s love and justice, service to the poor, and care for all of creation. The problem with America today is that we view capitalism as the end in and of its self; we basically worship wealth. Capitalism is efficient at producing things, but it’s only valuable if those things are meeting the needs of human beings. Conversely, the problem with the Soviet Union was that it worshipped socialism as an ideology rather than being guided by greater values of human dignity. However, we as Catholics need to be more open to utilizing socialist policies as means (government intervention in the economic, the right to housing and employment, living wage, universal healthcare, strong labor unions, strong environmental protections) to achieve the end which is acting out God’s love and justice. I don’t think I’m too far off from what the Church teaches.
I don’t trust our government to exercise Godly approach to it’s ineffective and wasteful approach. Individuals do a much better job of helping others at their discretion than our government.
Very well said Bishop.
Can someone please tell me the title of the book he mentioned at the end? Sounds Latin. Please, I want to know about that book.
Fr. Barron, thank so much for your videos. Your articulation of the faith is highly winsome-your explication of Thomas Aquinas is deeply moving! However, I have some reservations about your claims regarding capitalism, socialism, and their relation to Christianity. You argue that capitalism, when properly regulated, is reconcilable with Christianity. (Continued below)
A perfectly reasonable argument, as always.
I would also add my concern: Once government has been given the tools to intervene "when gross injustice occurs", there needs to be some sort of legal guarantee that they will not overstep their authority. This is the concern, I believe, of the Founding Fathers in their limitations of government, and that still seems to be at the center of many debates among Americans.
Checks and balances.
Thank much for this video.
Anyone know how to spell the name of the movie Fr. Barron recommended at the end of the movie?
Also, any prominent theological and philosophical papers on the relations between the Catholic Church and Law. Thanks.
Thanks father for another excellent video. I love Michael Moore and thank God for the spirit of concern for his fellow man an catholic witness. I'm a Canadian, and he rather likes quite a bit about our modified market system. You have encouraged me to look up this encyclical and I must say that pope JPII's "Laborem Exercens" "On Human Work" is one of the very best things I have ever read on the whole domain of work and economies. A person couild get pretty well educated on your videos alone.
Bishop, what do you think of Bishop Fulton Sheen's position on capitalism and communism as opposed to distributism and ownership of the means of production by the individual(s) that participate in the labor and management and not a capital class?
"Michael Moore is a Catholic"...good golly that makes me wince.
KLRJUNE That’s a great way to put it.
Sticks and stones, man. Tell me precisely where you think I'm "watering down" Catholic social teaching.
Father, I've listened to the talk you have posted on the website on this issue, and I like it very much, but I have one concern/disagreement with it. You mentioned that profit is the only legitimate measurement of the growth of an economy. My concern is that profit, if defined strictly in terms of monetary gain, fails to take into account the unpaid housework/ other unpaid work that people, mostly women, do. Is there some church-approved way to redefine growth which takes this into account?
Well, one out of 270 ain't bad!
I agree that it does call for greater individual action and responsibility. However, it also calls into question the very nature of the government and the system.
You can help the poor with not only treasure but with your time and talent. We never seem to have time and we never seem to know what talents we have....back to only thinking about treasure.
I think that that practice is wicked. They should be ashamed of themselves.
i guess this explains resource depletion and environmental destabilization. thanks for making that clear.
But woe unto you that are rich! for ye have received your consolation. -- Luke 6:24
'It's the love of money that is the root of all evil'. This is stated in Timothy and Jesus clearly tells the young man that it's easier for a camel to fit through the eye of a needle (Meaning impossible) than for a rich man to go to heaven. These two are related: The pursuit of money, power and status (Google 'The love of the world, bible') are in direct opposition to spiritual development and the love of God." Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him."
Didn't those quotes precede capitalism? Hmm....
“Meaning impossible “
Ah No. With God all things are possible.
The needle gate wouldn’t be impossible. Just difficult
@John Coffey I can't remember what I was thinking when I wrote that. Probably something in the video.
You're a backwards moron
The problem with Capitalism is precisely this idea that a corporation exists solely to make profit and drive its competition out of business. I remember reading that in the Middle Ages guilds were formed in trades precisely so that fellow members of a craft would NOT drive their fellow craftsmen out of business, as that was considered against neighbourly love and justice. The problem with Capitalism is the same as the problem with Darwinism - the idea that "competition" is a creative force, that order can arise out of chaos. There's a good dialogue in Plato between an Athenian and a Spartan, I believe, where the Spartan insists that the first duty of a State is to establish itself as ready to make war on its enemy, but the Athenian wisely insists that a State is built primarily on a principle of order, not disorder; peace, not war. Similarly, an ECONOMY must be built first and foremost on a principle of peace and CO-OPERATION, not war and competition. This is the evil of Capitalism.
Brilliantly stated, Jack
Jack Collinson Perfectly said. I’m neither a capitalist nor communist and advocate for a third position. I think it’s best to call it Guild Syndicalism (economic system) with its aim to achieve a Meritocracy (political philosophy). We should have rational cooperation, not “rational self interest (capitalism)” or complete self sacrifice (communism). A synthesis between capitalism and socialism and individualism and collectivism.
I'd say the Medieval Guild System has both good and bad qualities.
For the good, you are right that they organized themselves to make sure they didn't put fellow guild brothers or people from other guilds out of business (for example a weaver may not make new clothes because that would put the cloth mender out of business). They also gave proceeds to the poor, took care of the widows and orphans of dead guild members, ensured quality control, and pooled their resources to build cathedrals in their towns which everyone in the community got utility out of. For the bad, they created artificial monopolies (for example, you could not legally work as a cobbler in a town unless you belonged to the shoemaker's guild), they forbid the use of inventions or innovations (increasing productivity means less work for the guild brothers), and they restricted business so no one person could truly excel. Under a Guild System, an industrial revolution would be impossible.
@gilcheque
I think the answer to that question would vary depending on who is asking. Capitalism benefits the rich more than it does the poor or the middle class, each of whom would tell you different things about the capitalist model based on how they benefit from it.
Luke 12:15
And he said to them, “Take care, and be on your guard against all covetousness, for one's life does not consist in the abundance of his possessions.”
Excellent!
@miulum Friend, I'd be willing to bet I spent less on that watch than you spent on yours.
You received it for free?
It is not so much the idea of "profit as measurement" that I'm taking issue with, but how "profit" can be expanded to measure all wealth while still serving as a useful measure of economic growth.
I am curious as to what the church has to say about government assistance to the poor and the external issues (besides perhaps the poor themselves prolonging and creating their own problems) that may work to keep or make it more difficult to move from a lower to a higher economic class?
In Socialism and communism, the Beatles, for example, never would have made it. There would be no reason. Capitalism is not inherently evil. Communism is.
What is it that the Bishop references at the very end? Santasium Hosanus?
centesimus annus
I would love to hear updated commentary on this Bishop, now that Pope Francis has spoken out so much on this. Rather, can you point me to where you have? Thanks.
lucky your family has not been touched by these guys. Here is a message to Barron: yea , like your cover-ups of rapes. There are still rapists in the church right now. We are connected. Lay people are fleeced by the clergy. One reason some countries do not trust the Vatican is because you help rapists escape to the Vatican, to evade the law. You piece of garbage you. You will become a cardinal one day, and like cardinal Law and cover up the actions of priests who rape. You are already doing that. The present pope is just a sly salesman who has done nothing but keep the Vatican corporation operating, increasing its wealth and power. You have nothing to do with Christ and most Catholics know that. We remain in the church to try to catch you guys doing more mean stuff. There are good priests but they are too honest and are never promoted like you have been.
Bish, you'll notice that the movement of human beings to find work is from Catholic countries to Protestant countries- (South America to North America, Italy, France and Ireland to England and Germany)
A mighty subtle distinction. I don't think you replied convincingly to Mr. Black's concerns involving the Catholic Church's very tradition: Aquinas being against usury, Augustine's City of Man v. City of God, let alone the Bible passages in Luke 16 : 10 - 16 : 15 about a rightly ordered soul not having "two masters" and the love of God and love of money (profit motive) as being mutually exclusive. Best, A Concerned Catholic
@1melianthus Thank you for being a voice of economic reason here. In other TH-cam clips, Father mentions that scientists should stay out of theological debates because they aren't well schooled. Economics is by far the most important issue affecting our lives, and the Catholic Church has decided to voice its opinion without educating itself. Father, let's start very basic: What creates wealth? Hundreds of years ago, everyone was poor. Now some countries lag behind while others are very we
@riseaslarks
I think your series of posts here makes a lot of sense -- especially about the different assumptions capitalism and Christianity make about human nature. Capitalism is at heart social darwinism, human beings as inherently and unavoidably in competition. I believe somewhere in his corpus C.S. Lewis says something to the effect that the centre of the devil's philosophy is that all things are in competition, that the universe is a kind of zero sum game.
"It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God." Matthew: 19: 23
"If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven." Matthew 19:21
"Whoever has two tunics is to share with him who has none, and whoever has food is to do likewise." Luke 3:11
"But if anyone has the world's goods and sees his brother in need, yet closes his heart against him, how does God's love abide in him?" 1 John 3:17
"No one can serve two masters, for either he will hate one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other.
You cannot serve god and money." Matthew 6:24
"The root of all evils is the love of money." 1 Timothy 6:10
"And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common." Acts 4:32
"And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all." Acts 4:33
"Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold" Acts 4:34
"And laid them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need." Acts 4:35
I learned something here Father,I'm reading Rerum Novarum ,Pope Leo Vlll,Im at Paragraph 23,very Interesting,wow ,what a great letter.
Hi, where can I find this document/book please?
the issue was the same. there were very few controls on the lenders in the housing market loan administration. dot coms were not valued objectively either, and so when their real value was determined at a much lower price, investors were left with losses and low value stocks, much as banks were left with unpaid loans, leaving many banks in deep financial crisis.
I love Jesús Christ! God bless all! God loves us! Ever 😇😇😇
Bobby, I don't think Jesus' statement was limited to the negative exploitative effects of Roman imperialism over the Jewish people of his time but like all his parables was meant to demonstrate the lack of focus on the "one thing needful." Rich men are consumed with the cares of this world and his kingdom was not of this world. The lesson is about the treasures of the heart. Store up for yourselves treasures in heaven. It didn't matter how one came about these worldly riches, then as now.
What do you think about Greece?
Thank you Fr. Barron!
I don't think the market will ever be situated within a moral framework. But what do you think of Jesus' statement of the "eye of a needle" concerning the rich in this context?
I've noticed that none of the posts have referred to the latest encyclical, "Caritas in veritate" - the beautiful Encyclical Letter of His Holiness Benedict XVI that takes Rerum Novarum and Centissimus Annus, which have been mentioned, to the next level - a system that Chesterton and Belloc called Distributism.
While we/re on the topic of capitalism vs socialism, have you seen The Lost City (2005)?
“It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the gates of heaven”. It’s interesting that Moore brought up that passage. Being that Michael Moore is worth like 50 million I wonder if he considers himself a rich man.
I looked through the comments, but I didn't see any discussion of the Catholic teaching of distributism as it relates to socialism v. capitalism. Is it just that this is not a feasible option any more?
I love how people make exception for their religion whenever money is involved.
Matthew
25“Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more important than food, and the body more important than clothes? 26Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? 27Who of you by worrying can add a single hour to his life?
(Continued from above) Where the capitalist system depends on each individual looking first to his or her own interests, the Gospel urges us to look first to the needs of the other. We are not fundamentally competitors; we are brothers and sisters whose relationships are characterized by shalom rather than self-interest. Furthermore, the law under capitalism functions not to bring us into closer communion with one another but rather to protect my property from you and vice versa. (Cont. below)
@JeffersonDinedAlone
Ciloman FreeBSD does indeed possess the right perspective, as far as this discussion is concerned.
Father Barron, I think there is a distinction between the term "market economy" and a "Capitalist economy". A market economy is not necessarily capitalist. Capitalism only really took shape following the industrial revolution when significant production technology a and logistical technology emerged. Here is when workers and capital were separated. Workers were treated by capitalists as another input in production - just like electricity and other materials. you can have a market economy that isn't capitalist. Look at the old trades such as blacksmiths etc. These were often family run businesses, whose connection was to their own community. There were, to be sure, market forces affecting supply and demand. But this was a more personal economy where a close relationship between buyers and sellers existed - they were neighbours, parishioners etc. They knew one another and that helped ride out the volatility inherent in a market economy. There is no going back to this kind of market economy. However, in a capitalist world, you are correct in saying that government, churches and other social institutions must intervene to ensure that the economy is humane and is underpinned by strong morals. In the post-Reformation plural society the West has become, these common morals are no longer there. That is the heart of the problem in my opinion. How do we restore the common life between men, where a market economy can flourish? The Reformation let the cat out of the bag I'm afraid. Since then all authority seems to be questioned - whether ecclesial or governmental. Secularism is Protestantism fully played out. How can we overcome this? that is the question for our times
Easy, the vast majority of humanity becomes more intellectual and adopt reality with a Secular Humanist life stance.
What is reality? Reality is Science.
Technocracy is the future and capitalism is gone because it is straight out manipulative and destructive towards society and the planet.
Just look at the For Profit colleges and ridiculous high prices for college degrees.
Chinese college students end up working minimum wage and their degree is just "paper" in a capitalist world where everyone seeks the same materialistic dream. Yes, China is State Capitalist.
The United States is becoming a corporatocracy.
Thankfully there are universities in Scandinavia and Germany that have free education. The future will be about Open/Free Source Movements where people can go and create their own cars, Android Roms, food production, etc. Why? Because they will have the knowledge of Science.
i think karl marx was wrong when karl marx attacked the private ownership system in his communist book.... Karl Marx should have attacked the Education system and encouraged the Free and Open Education system available to the masses.... that should have been his philosophy...
@aaxzej technocrats do not participate in the market economy? Of course they do. Technocrats do not profit in the market economy? Of course they do.
Do technocrats run corporations? Of course they do.
@brendos444 why do you believe going back to a market economy without capitalism is not possible? In the absence of banking, finance and usury large corporations would be mired in a calamity with over 100million unemployed people who couldn't consume because of lack thereof consumer demand? Are corporations job creators?
Father Barron,thank you for your video and your thoughts.Having said that,I would like to suggest that you read GK.Ghesterton,or Hillair Belloc and other works of "Distributism".This model of economics has been found productive,efficient,and moral.Check out " The Mondragon experiment" on TH-cam. Short Documentary!
Bishop, I hope you’re having a wonderful day. Not sure if you will get the chance (or the time) to read my comment, but I hope you do because I’d love to hear your thoughts on this issue. I think I can agree on the fact that capitalism itself is not the problem. But what about consumerism? Do you think there is a difference between the two, and if so, would consumerism perhaps be more relevant to the camel-needle statement, since it’s grounded on a belief that happiness, identity, and purpose can be “bought”?
I think that Jesus never really attacked economic or political systems per se (including, for example, patriarchy and slavery), perhaps because when people begin to enter into relationship with Christ, and their will begins to conform to God’s will, everything else sort of falls into place and all power dynamics become loving as opposed to oppressive or exploitative. As such, capitalism as a system is only a problem when it is divorced from God (just like everything is a problem when divorced from God). I would even exaggerate slightly here and say that a dictatorship run by saints may ultimately be preferable to a democracy run by demons (hyperbole, of course). So capitalism is the best system we have come up with so far.
The thing is, I can’t wrap my head around the fact that today it seems to be acceptable for me, as a catholic, to be largely ignorant of the impact that consumerism can have on:
1- my soul (since it is corruptive to hoard possessions and overindulge in luxury, to be greedy and vain, and to run my work around the maximization of profit at the expense of the health of the planet or the health of society, etc)
2- other people (for example, buying products that are only available to me for so cheap because someone at the other side of the world is paying the price by sacrificing their childhood, health, dignity, etc. to produce that product). (Watch “story of stuff” for a good example of this)
Basically what I’m trying to say is that I believe that the culture of consumerism is a problem.
It’s possible to live in and support a capitalist system, and to consume moderately, prudently, and consciously.
However, it’s equally possible to dismiss the importance of moderation, prudence, and community when living in a culture that equates capitalism with consumerism and applauds the pursuit of wealth as the most holy of pursuits.
What is the role of asceticism in the life of the lay catholic in the 21st century? What is the role of abnegation?
Is vanity O.K now? Avarice? Pride? Because the glorification of consumerism waters down those vices and makes them seem less fierce. What would Jesus do, if He were walking around a shopping mall today, with advertisements on every side telling his children they’re imperfect and need to buy their way to perfection through consumer products, plastic surgery, and Instagram likes?
I believe we are desperately in need of re-examining these things. I feel like no one wants to talk about these things anymore. “Just give a bit to the poor and you’ll be fine. Be generous, but define generosity yourself. It doesn’t matter if you’re vain, greedy, and self-indulgent.” That’s the kind of response I’ve been getting (indirectly) from the Catholic Church these days, in the name of anti-radicalism and modernity. I’d like to know how you feel about this.
P.S I’m a huge fan of yours, from all the way in the Middle East (Lebanon). You’ve had a huge impact on my life, and my mother’s as well. I live in a significantly different environment than you do, but I hope you’ll be happy to know that your words are touching the hearts of people all the way here.
I think a good lesson here is that completely unfettered free-market economies undermine Catholic Social Teaching. The answer, as with most things in life, lies somewhere in the middle. Hence, the U.S. has been known to be a mixed-market economy, despite what our two dominant political institutions like to argue back and forth. The leads me to my second and final point; Catholic social teaching is not meant for anyone political ideology and or party, but for all humans to practice in love with one another.
The Word expounded in the Fire indeed. If you want to be rich, maybe think *Matt **25:40* at the same time you’re filling your own pocket. _We all need to do this._
I'm not defending socialism per se, but it does seem like a pretty specious argument to go from the observation that the implementation of socialism, or variants of socialism, failed in spectacular fashion in a handful of countries necessarily implies that socialism itself is completely unworkable. Just because I fell down the first 5 times I tried waterskiing didn't mean I was incapable of waterskiing. To be fair, different variants of socialism have been applied reasonably successfully.
I too am Canadian.
Justice is justice; it must apply to all, although what would be the context of justice for the working class? There could be no context of justice for it, as justice does not pertain to any particular condition, or conditions, such as financial status, or anything else. Given this actuality, your comment is meaningless.
What did that have to do with the housing market crash? The dot com bubble was before the housing bubble. The recession we are in was created by a bubble fueled by too much consumer debt. There was no regulator that saw a problem with the bubble. If you want to know what really happened, watch a video of the man who predicted the crash. He illustrates how loose borrowing standards and easy money fueled the bubble. look up this video-- "Peter Schiff Was Right 2006 - 2007 (2nd Edition) "
@DemCatBo Couldn't they temper thier support of such a system, which would benefit far more than it's commerical counterpart, with that same wariness?
1 John 3:17
But if anyone has the world's goods and sees his brother in need, yet closes his heart against him, how does God's love abide in him?
Wow. I was certainly pondered by Pope Leo's quote. Something that I have wrestled with in the bible is Jesus Christ lack of say on politics and economy.
Angelo Cabral Christianity really isn't a religion rooted in politics unlike Islam. I mean Muhammad commanded armies and issued decrees. This contrasts with Jesus' example in John 6:14-15 where he rejects the idea of becoming a political leader.
If you consider Plato's work, someone has to be a political leader; because very few are in fact born to lead. The objection we would have is obviously a political leader that's evil.
Thumbs up for Distributism!
The Catechism of the Catholic Church says it all that all the economic systems have their problems whether socialism, communism and capitalism.
Matthew 6:19-21
“Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal, but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.
Fr Barron, at the end if this video advises you to go buy John Paul II's Centessimus Annus. I have good news for you; you don't need to buy it, you can download it for free at the Vatican site - (vatican.va) or just google the encyclical name.
You can download Leo XIII's Rerum Novarum in the same way. Both documents are still relevant and fresh
@DemCatBo As far as the Holy Catholic Church itself, one if it's greatest champions of the poor, Archbishop Oscar Romero, was assassinated for his direct opposition to the imperialistic capitalism that was economically enslaving the people of El Salvador. If the church's position is a belief in the free market but a healthy wariness of it's corruptions, then why would it oppose a system in which private ownership of means of production is forefitted to control of the means by the masses?
Father. Are you saying England and Canada are repugnent? I love your videos but scratch my head sometimes. (and yes, i'm a liberal catholic).
Another liberal catholic here. How, Father, do you not see the wealth (pun intended) of economic injustices in this country? How do you not see the abuse by those who are earning gazillions per minute off of the backs of their miserably paid workers? I’m deeply disturbed by your opinions with regard. May God bless you abundantly.
This was a terrific video in terms of learning which is the Church's real position on the economy and the state. Yet, we have to be careful, not all socialism is Marxist, there are social democracies, there are also the Nordic economic models. This distinction is neither made by Michael Moore nor Father Barron.
@wordonfirevideo Is there any other possible interpretation of Jesus' reaction to the money-lenders and merchants in the temple other than being anti-capitalist? The Temple was a holy place, and He got upset because they were doing something unholy in it, that being commerce. He didn't ask the lepers and blind for their health care providers, which would indicate an inclination towards universal health care.