What Doctor Who Could Have Been
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 27 ส.ค. 2022
- Despite Doctor Who being taken off-air in 1989, plans had already been made for the near future of the show. What was The Cartmel Masterplan? And who is Raine Cunningham?
Special thanks to Macra Music and DrMatt for supplying the incidental music.
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For some reason as a kid, McCoy's Doctor was comforting even during the darker themed episodes.
He's like a cool uncle.
The more "important" they make the Doctor, the more they diminish him!
Agreed. I miss the simple concept of the Doctor just being a renegade who couldn't abide by the stifling, stoic bureaucracy of the timelords.
@@gregsmith7949plus the fact his mystery with his own planet
@@gregsmith7949from what I heard the wanted to bring that mystery back.
I'm so glad the VNAs and 7th Doctor Big Finish continued the Cartmel Masterplan, and Big Finish gave us the stories that were meant for season 27. Also a lot of ideas from the Cartmel Masterplan are used throughout New Who (though not done as well).
Illegal Alien is one of my favorite pieces of Doctor Who related media out there (second only to Spare Parts and Killing Ground.) To learn that it was supposed to an actual episode of DW is astonishing.
Love Illegal Alien, one of the best books.
@@paulflint6254 Right?! It makes the cyberman creepy and scary in a way that hasn't been seen since the classic series.
While I can appreciate Big Finish wanting to take S27 in a new direction it’s a shame what happened to Raine in Big Finish, Cartmel wasn’t a fan of how they handled her in UNIT Dominion and so she hasn’t been used since due to Cartmel being adamantly against her inclusion.
It is a shame we don't get to see more of her. But honestly not my favourite 7 companion anyway 🤷🏼♂️
Wait? Is that why she hasn't appeared in Big Finish of late? Because Andrew asked the production team not to use the character anymore?
@@SamThomas_YT I am going to finally get season 27 onto television after 60 years since doctor who was cancelled
@@jeremythomaswebb1485 First I'd heard this either! Interesting stuff.
@@SamThomas_YT What happened with her. I have no idea.
I did appreciate that Andrew Carmel was trying to bring Doctor Who a bit more down to earth
They really seemed to be starting to build a nice balance between extravagant and serious
@@SamThomas_YT It's a Shame that The Seventh Doctor's time was incredibly short on screen just The Sixth Doctor's
I got into DW in 1991, and for me the New Adventures _was_ Doctor Who. Great rundown of where a lot of that energy came from. thank you!
im the same, fantastic books btw
I remember a brief conversation with Marc Platt at the 30th anniversary convention celebration in 1993. He told me that one idea would’ve been for The 7th Dr to have some kind of mental health breakdown and go really dark, triggering his regeneration. Like the opposite to 6, where instead of a post regenerative trauma, the subsequent regeneration would have healed him. How this would have manifested itself narratively is unknown.
One of the drafts for Robin Mukerjee's Alixion took a more psychological approach. Rather than an abbot, the main villain would've been a "gross bank manager" and a sorta mental equal to the Doctor. The story would've basically seen this Manager and the Doctor trying to outwit each other in different life or death games. Point is the Doctor would've assumingly lost and had a mental breakdown from this and regenerate straightjacketed and gagged
For those of you who enjoyed Ben Aaronovitch's Who stories, I would absolutely recommend his Rivers of London series!
If Edris Elba was still doing Brit tv, & hadn't moved on to hollyweird movies, I'd have liked him as the Dr after Capaldi.
I loved season 25 and especially 26. Its a shame they didn't get the chance to coniinue the good work. It sounds like good solid scripts and unique ideas were being worked on. Real shame.
So Interesting! Would've loved to see a late 80s early 90s Auton story! Its such a shame McCoys tenure was cut so very short!
For a couple of decades it was known that Alixion was going to be the final story of season 27 with The Doctor's mind battle with the new Master-type villain draining him of all his energy thus causing him to regenerate into the Eighth Doctor.
Also it was rumoured the companion's name would be Kate Tollinger daughter of Samuel, but Cartmel has denied this.
At least the hints and possible origin is much better then the Chibnall’s Timeless Child.
This is so informative! I thought I knew everything about Season 27, but I guess I was wrong. Night Thoughts is one of my favourite Big Finish Seventh Doctor stories, but I had no idea it was originally meant for TV.
I've always been a fan of the Dr Who novel Lungbarrow, and I was one of the lucky people who got to read the digital version, which sadly it no longer exists. Unfortunately, the original novel goes for hundreds of dollars, so I'll probably never own one. I really liked this direction, and it would have been interesting to see the 7th Doctor in these lost stories. I'm fairly sure that these ideas served as the inspiration for the recent story Dr Who story The Timeless Child as well. Great video, and you have a new subscriber!
Marc Platt wrote a revised edition a few years ago now. I down loaded it only a few months ago. I cant remember where from, but it wasnt difficult to find via google. I expec tthe original e-book is equally findable. All of the Virgin and BBC doooks can be found on a US archive site (again cant recall the site name).
Thing is though, The timeless children is and feels like a forced way of putting “the message” down our throats but least RTD will make this more satisfying and hopefully will have kept the mystery around the doctor other than the reason he left Gallifrey
These are all really solid ideas, it’s too bad the series was being dragged through the mud by the BBC higher-ups and also in terms of public popularity and ratings, as I think the quality of the storytelling at that time rivals the heights of Tom Baker’s era under Hinchcliffe and Holmes.
Where can I find all the music you used in this video?
if the show didnt go off the air you would have never got Paul McGann or its triumphant return in 2005. It probably would have been rebooted
This was brilliant. A fantastic, insightful watch. Thank you so much.
This was a fantastic video Sam
Really informative and incredibly well edited. Probably your best video yet
Thanks! Definitely one of my favourites so far :)
I have read War of the Daleks and Illegal Alien and loved them both.
I do really wanna Illegal Alien but I read that War of the Daleks wasn't so well received so I'm hesitant
@@SamThomas_YT War of the Daleks was pretty decent IMO. It would’ve made a solid season opening, though maybe for a Season 28 if that happened.
I didn’t like Sylvester McCoys Doctor to begin with. I think because I only knew him as a childrens tv presenter. But I came to like him very much. Unlike other Doctors, McCoys changed the most during his tenure, becoming more dark and serious, even his outfits went from creams to black by the end of his series.
Amazing video, I'm always fascinated by this era of the show so it was great to learn something new!
Fantastic Video, such an interesting watch!
Excellent, very well produced, thank you
Just one thing, the ratings were not declining, they were apparently going up. Great film! :)
Please continue this series
You deserve way more subs for this content
Thanks! :)
I'm familar with the slow grind so it's worth it :)
Very interesting. I heard about some of the plans for this proposed season(like Ace leaving, the new safecracker assistant and McCoy's departure).
I was never happy with the "I'm just an ordinary Timelord, _or am I_ ?" thing. I much preferred the Doctor being some random bloke (as he was then) who stumbled into adventures. It's what out me off the modern series, it became too messianic.
Fascinating video
A fantastic insight indeed. If only...
Thanks for the video can I ask why the eerie music though. It’s doctor who.
It weirdly works but idk why 😂.
I just like to use music from relating episodes, in this case Season 26 :)
@@SamThomas_YT is it all actual doctor who music then? I’m probs to used to Murray gold in new who
@@NightmareproductionsOFFICIAL yeah a variety of stuff from Battlefield to Survival (and a bit of The Rani Elite from Big Finish)
I seriously wish in 1989 I had been older than 20 preferably aged 25 or even older like 26 or even 30 or even 30 plus
To me some of these stories did reverb in the 9th and 10th doctors stories and the rest have had a audio version done it could be interesting if there were some done as a graphic novels and there's one other thing I recall a article about Ace getting her own series based around her leaving the doctor briefly to findout more about her families past and dealing with a family secret that is very different from the other she and doctor dealt with it interestingly involves a ancient book and a old farmhouse and a mysterious figure who calls itself Doctor the whole time she start having nightmares of fulling? Read this idea from a article in a science fiction magazine the story was called spirt web or box it hinted at Ace being something more than human she had another life before as for the figure it had a message for her look back?
Bold Opinion: Andrew Cartmel was the best script editor of the Classic Series. Even better than Robert Holmes.
Such a great video. So interesting and informative. Wish it had happened. (Could you do a quick edit? - Cry-ton, not Critch-ton)
Thanks!
Unfortunately can't change it now, I'm terrible with names and got loads wrong in this video apparently
13:22 The reason I'm writin'
Is how to say "Crichton" 🙃
So presumably we would have seen the regeneration in December 1990 and a brief glimpse of The Eighth Doctor.
If it had carried on it would have been good to see the 7th return to UNIT as it’s scientific adviser.
Id love to see these stories animated like the missing episodes
Only one little thing. I recall Cartmel's notes including a script called Blood Hunger involving vampires that was considered for Season 27 or beyond.
McCoy’s last season holds up so well. It’s such a specific vibe but Doctor Who was never more dark and intelligent. Shame about the cancellation.
Can't Believe McIntee hated his idea for Avatar so much! I love it, I had my 'ohhhh yeah' face on when that twist hit me XD
I can see exactly how to do it that would have made it a banger, a cros in tone between Quatermass, The Fog, and the Boris Karlof Mummy. Layer S26's spooky suedo mystical atmosphere over it, this could have been amazing!
I gather they were going to build a new console room. I wish they had, because if they spent the money, Andrew Cartnell would have had to let us go inside it a few times! Really spoilt season 25 and 26 hardly ever going in it. Yes, I know they were useless by season 26 but he still was anti Tardis. I spent two years waiting to see my beloved console again like we used to.
There was a model built for the season 27 tardis shown off during the 40th anniversary
The thumbnail you definitely took from Batman: Arkham City’s poster of The Riddler.
want to make one for the Season in between the Troughton and Pertwee Eras.
I love all the McCoy seasons but the last may be the favorite of the classic series, wasn't wild about the sound of digital synthesizers but now it adds a nice layer of cheese to the profund sublimity going on.
Illegal Alien is a really good book. I got into Doctor Who through The Virgin New Adventure books. All Who fans should read them. Thanks for the video👍
Doctor Who couldn’t continue with the budget the BBC gave it. It had become a laughing stock across Britain. Even if the budget had been increased the damage was done. It needed that 16 year break to renew itself. Peoples expectations in 2005 when it was announced it was coming back were so low they were amazed at how good it was.
Death Comes to Time, kind of sort of confirms that whole Doctor being a Time Lord God thing. I mean I know it's not canon, but where does that fit in and all this?
That story is just so weird. All of the Time lords are suddenly gods and refer to themselves as such. And apparently when Steven Fry timelord gets upset, he can hurl thunderbolts by the power of his TARDIS.
I dont think it fits at all, in anything. It's like a totally different mythos.
I always liked and still love the idea of Avatar, even if David thought it was shite.
The Timeless Children. Needs retconning out. This plan is much better
Sounds like it would have been awesome
As a teen I was enticed by all those late 80s hints at a Doctor who both manipulates and can be manipulated by another shadowy figure. Now however I think that sort of thing can be excessive - it has felt that way in much the revived series.
One thing that always disappointed me was the lack of a link between Fenric and Gods Of Ragnarok (despite those costumes looking more Mediterranean than Nordic). Was it just coincidence that names inspired by the same mythology featured in those two stories?
Curse of Fenric should of been Sylvester Mcoys last story as it wraped up all of Mcoys season nicely. I also do think if it wasnt for the bad CGI effects and rubber monsters the season would of caried on
It wrapped up nothing beyond Ace's subtle character arc, and no, it was declining because the BBC wanted it dead, hence the budget cuts that were causing the poor CGI and rubber costumes in the first place. The big-wigs didn't believe Doctor Who had any value -- despite maintaining a dedicated 4-5mil average, even when the BBC put it up against the 15-20mil viewers of Coronation Street (trying to sweep it under the rug). After the first failed cancellation attempt, they were looking for any excuse to cut its throat, so the last thing they were going to do was give the team more money for better effects and costumes.
It certainly would have helped - but it wasn't going to save the show (considering how badly its owners wanted it dead - completely oblivious to the dedicated fan-base that were still tuning in, and growing, despite all the politics and shenanigans).
You may want to check the section the rani elite where you miss Identify it as nghtthoughts
Yeah I saw this just after uploading it so couldn't change it unfortunately :(
Oh well :)
@@SamThomas_YT also shows your most observatant viewers, anyone else notice this
I was personally never fond of the Cartmell master plan, but it would have been vastly better than what Chibnall ended up doing with his ham fisted retcon.
make one about possible season 28?
The thing it there was never really any plans at all that we know were for season 28. The DWM 255 article "What If?" Kinda makes some guesses but there's nothing concrete so this video includes all the potential stories, some of which could have been part of season 28
@@SamThomas_YT hmm
Better then the timeless child which is just awful
Why was the Tardis junked ?
I gather it was literally falling apart. The set was constructed of plyboard and MDF and just curled and peeled. There were design drawings of a season 27 console room with a suspended console and the double time rotor reaching the ceiling, so I guess they just decided to dump the old set for a season and wait for the new one, rather than waste budget patching up the one that was falling to bits.
I’m kind of glad that the plan didn’t come to fruition. ‘Cause I know that I wouldn’t have liked the Doctor being revealed to be some god or something. Takes away from what’s fun about them. Which is why the timeless child was dumb.
I mean in Lunburrow hes not a God, and the idea of the looms etc was just such an awesome idea I actually think its one of the most innovative stories ever for Who. As the nuance to that is that the Other depressed with Omegas fate and Rasslions corruption with power the Other throws himself into the machinery of the looms and its only bits and hints of the The other that is in the person of the Doctor it doesnt reveal everything about him but gives an idea of why the Doctor has such a different view to most of his people of his age.
@@rob27dap26 interesting
I've been pushing, that at the end of whoever the Doctor is that is ready to step down after doing their season finale,
"The Doctor hears the Tardis Alarm and wanders thru the levels to find the problem, only to find the Eye of Harmony open as a remnant of the Master is caught in the Door. Placing the Remnant back in the Container, and Eric Roberts is returned to his time and family.
Reapers appear around the Eye of Harmony and the current Doctor is pulled into the Eye, followed by the 13th Doctor, the 12th Doctor, the 11th Doctor, the 10th Doctor the 9th Doctor and the 8th Doctor, then Sylvester McCoy wakes up in his chair to see the Reapers appear as his former self Tom Baker, Colin Baker and Peter Davidson and stand ins for the rest of the Doctors, as they leave the Alarm sounds again
McCoy realizes that the TARDIS is being pursued by another TARDIS. Once captured, Andric face off McCoy for abandoning him and mortally wounding McCoy but regrets the action as McCoy explains. His death leads to the new 8th Doctor as
Rose, and everyone is returned to their own time and place.
Doctor Who took a dark turn when abandoning Andric, and continued down the dark side by abandoning people all over the Universe Rose, her mom, Ricky Ticky Tavi is in another dimension
Martha is off fighting invaders
Donna will die and take out half the Universe if she remembers
Amy and Rory are trapped in time
and Clara is dead, kinda
The Captain Jack Character is a warning to the Doctor that his series will be destroyed if he continues down this path.
You can fix it
Doctor Who the Movie, Part II
before everyone dies.
Without watching ill tell you that a purely camp doctor who wasnt a great idea in the first place
I'll never get the "Ace becomes a Time Lord" thing. The only other sci fi character less suited to join an ancient order had a midichlorian count which was off the charts. And we all saw how that turned out.
What would have been the Doctor's thinking, sending this Dumb Dumb to Boom Boom the academy? And why would they even accept the cast off of a known renegade and certified cutlery botherer? Unless the Prydonian sorting hat held raffle tickets with first prize being a scholarship for Most Likely To Shoplift Cider and Cigarettes.
Seriously, what was special about Ace, apart from maybe the bus that took her to school?
The Cartmel Masterplan seems about as desperate to poop all over the show as an albatross being carried on the shoulders of giants. It was no great surprise to see Chibnall taking cues from this debacle. The unwritten episodes here described seem even less like Doctor Who than whatever tf the previous few seasons had been. No wonder the powers that be saw no way forward if this was the route map being scribbled on the back of a beer mat by a bunch of sixth formers who'd sneaked into the BBC bar and ordered one pint of lager tops and four straws.
Decent video, though. Nice editing
Agree with you. Nothing against Sophie Aldred - she was nice to meet at a convention long, long ago, but there is no way this hypothetical season could have saved DW. McCoy was not a good fit for the Doctor and the writing and acting were really poor during his tenure. The tone was weird, uneven and most unWho-like. I also didn’t like the angst-ridden teenager crap and the politicking at the expense of good storytelling. The budget was also minuscule by this time making the special effects worse than usual except in the Dalek story.
@@reactivearmour5126 Sorry. You're wrong. Sylvester McCoy was a perfect fit for The Doctor and was loved by many fans and was extremely popular at the time and a couple of his stories get listed as the best ones in the entire run.
@@Dragonfly-0010 Lame.
@@christopherhahn6728 Don't stretch your vocabulary now! 😆
I found all the stories of this era too dialogue-heavy - almost indigestably so. Haven't any of the writers heard the saying, "show - don't tell." It's continued into nuwho.
Crichton is pronounced 'Cry-ton'
Shame that McCoy wasn’t able to continue - after some misfires (sorry Bonnie) things were improving. Big Finish at least gives us some great stories. I cannot stand the current Who ? as too me and many others it isn’t remotely Doctor Who. Ah well….
But the Chinball era is so similar to the RTD era.
Agree on all points.
If McCoy stayed on he would regenerated in the next season only to be replaced by Uncle Vernon as the Doctor. That would have been a disaster.
Series not season, this is a British show.
I couldn't stand the character of Peri; was so glad when I learned she was a British actress and not American.
Oh happy days.
It wasn't the writing in Dr Who which killed it. It had burnt out years before & was just plodding along in decline ever since JNT became Director. He killed the Humour, Insisted upon daft wardrobe ideas, killed K9, sacked Dudley Simpson, caked everything in question marks, introduced pastiche accents to sell it abroad, & reduce the budget in order to enrich himself.
If you compare the cheap studio-bound, over-lit, trope-ridden & watered down tripe of the 80's DW to the Authentic, Cinematic, Brooding, sinister & creative show of the 60's & 70's.. it's like a totally different show.
JNT was the opposite of Barry Letts in that he was a self-praising frivolous cantankerous manager with an obsession for bad taste who shouted down his crew where as Barry Letts was a patient, virtuous, open-minded modest gentleman with a heart of gold & persuasive intelligence.
The show looked so cheap & sad. They were using effects 10 years out of date. They were over exposing lens apertures to insane levels of light to make up for the fact that it was still being shot on cheap 16mm Video Tape, not even 35mm film. There was no second Unit like Doug Camfield had - so all the shots are dull, eye height rigid static frames for the most part. It wasn't recorded in Stereo until 1988, even though it was available in july 1984. The scores by Keff were beyond a joke. But JNT loved them naturally. Using Midi instruments - shop synths trying to sound like real instruments such as Alto Flutes with Oboe solos up against god awful Timpani patches & drum machine toms. Derbyshire - utterly disgusted with Keffs rendition disowned it. Saying that it sounded more like elevator music than time travel!
Most people with a modicum of sense left before the BBC would no doubt sack them - pointing fingers to everyone & anyone (even Bob Holmes) but oh no.. not the perfect John Nathan Turner! Everyone butted heads with that man. He killed the show to infatuate his own alter ego in wanting to play Dr Who, but instead contorted the entire show into the small minded world of JNT.
The only reason the final Season of DW had even a vestige of wavered quality returning is because everyone (sick of his Bullshit by this point) banded together to stand up to his authoritative regime & did their jobs better as a result of dispensing with his control freak admonishes & tyranny. He couldn't sack the whole crew. So he took reprisals by allowing the show to be taken off air without any desire to remonstrate against upper powers, who by that point felt that DW was an embarrassment to British Television.
All say a word for the demise of a once Flag-ship Show, slowly killed but not after transforming it into a Hawaiian Shirt, & a stick of celery with Curly hair on top.
What a brilliant and absolutely perfect summation of what JNT inflicted on Doctor Who.
I cannot believe this comment hasn’t gotten more likes. He got McCoys last 2 years right - as one does at the end, often when it’s too late.
@@johnlipponen3736 Thanks! Someone had to break silence!
Thats becasue the timeless children was badly written and while Lungburrow did make changes it also did so respectfully and with reverence for who past timeless children did not plus all disrespect to Chris Chibnall a Marc Platt he isnt sadly Chibnall equates to Who writers Pip and Jane Baker, meaning its passable at times even mediocre but good to great never.
Classic Who is so overrated and was usually pretty trash
That's my feeling about much of New Who 🤷♂️
If you think that the BBC didnt like DR Who and did all they could to destroy it well just wait and see if the Disney rumours are true.