Overwatch Tanks are Broken
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 4 มิ.ย. 2024
- The life of Tanks is currently a living hell, but there's something lying underneath the surface of discord being mean and sustain being low, because simply increasing health pools to account for this is causing unavoidable problems elsewhere.
With the recent armour increase for Reinhardt that has coupled with the midseason patch of the 5% passive nerf, its obvious that Blizzard is struggling to see the bigger picture of their systems.
Why don't the compensation health buffs make up for the lack of sustain?
Will this ever be a reasonable angle for balance?
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Streaming Overwatch Coaching Friday-Sunday 4-8pm GMT
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00:00 Intro
02:32 The Sate of the Game
03:15 How we Got Here
05:44 Uniform Changes aren't Uniform
07:07 How do Tanks Work
09:27 The Three Effects
12:43 Bronze Level Effects
13:18 Mid Level Effects
15:31 High Level Effects
17:09 Secret Bonus Topic
19:04 Outro
![[TH] VCT Masters Shanghai Playoffs DAY 5 // 100T vs PRX | FUT vs TH](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/q75pv359eP4/mqdefault.jpg)
![[TH] VCT Masters Shanghai Playoffs DAY 4 // 100T vs GEN | G2 vs TH](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/UkTGSxdCUQw/mqdefault.jpg)
"Rein learn to take cover"
Reins: "I thought I was the cover 😢"
I mean, even as a tank, you can always stand to be shot *less*
@@bazzfromthebackground3696theres being able to take cover and than theres being literally useless because you die in .5 seconds and can't use your melee character to be threatening unless you have a cqc situation
Your pin gets hard countered by life grip,suzu, other tanks,nade, hack, sleep, other tanks like sigma rock, orisa jav and fort, Mauga charge, somewhat doom punch but thats a trade, Brig bash(also trade), and Mei wall.
Need I list more
Most of these also counter your ult
Lmao! So true
@connork9745 This stuff doesn't happen in a vacuum though. Every tank has a list like you just gave. Let's use Sigma.
Your rock gets hard countered by grip, suzu, other tanks like Rein, Winston shield and Zarya bubble, hack, sleep Orissa javelin. Rock also gets interrupted by Rein charge if you catch him in it during rock animation. Orissa fortify and Mauga charge also negate it along with Brigitte shield and Mei wall.
Need I list more? Most of these also counter his ult and some even cancel his defensive suck vortext but I can definitely continue.
The bottom line is all tanks have a huge swath of abilities that counter them. The key difference with tanks will always be teamplay because that's how they were designed to be balanced. People don't play tanks much because when your team isn't playing with you, it feels like you're being countered by every ability that can counter you all at once and that's not fun. In order for the game to not feel that way a team needs to be following their tank.
A tank doesn't follow their team, the team follows their tank.
@@Shifft-This Despite what you said about sigma's rock being true, the main point that you overlooked is that sigma is not a melee tank. None of these counters affect him as much since he has the ability to poke from range, on top of a shield and matrix. When a melee tank engages they will either get countered or focused. That's why people would rather drop the tank role completely instead of endlessly counter swapping
They just need to bite the bullet and admit removing the second tank was a mistake. Without a second tank to peel aggro off them, Tanks are always gonna be wearing a note on their back that says "gank me" because of how much value comes from eliminating them; no damage mitigation for a push, no crowd control, no ult charge farm for their healers. They all got Ow1 bastion syndrome.
Their strategy is literally to never admit they made a mistake. They can only fix mistakes by moving forward and going around the problem
Blizzard admitting mistakes? That's a laugh..
Remember a couple years ago when they reworked Mercy? A big chunk of the Mercy Playerbase told them it would be busted as hell to have Rez on a static CD...
did they listen? No
did we have 6 months of Mercy DOMINATING the meta? Yes
Did they admit it was a bad decision and go back to the drawing board? No, but they tried every sort of numbers nerf in the book
Overwatch one was infinitly more fun especially as an off tank zarya main honestly zarya is the only tank that sort of sat well with the whole tank reworl ow2 thing only because of her bubble
@@overkillgaming1424 Same stuff with Mauga; he's so clearly designed to be an off tank, in a game where off tanks dont exist anymore.
@@overkillgaming1424I literally OTP zarya in OW1 for about 400hrs because tank synergy was so fun. Rein zarya was super fun to play. I dont wanna play her anymore because there is no synergy with her anymore. Her depth as a character has been ruined cuz of 5v5.
One of the major reasons as to why "just learn to play cover" is so hated as non advice is because at some point you have to play the game especially as tank. One of your main jobs is to take space and either set up your dps for a kill or help them finish one. We as a community already went over this when widowmaker was running lobbies in an earlier season. One of the best advice you can give to a new or struggling player is to learn how to take less damage, be aware of sight lines, flankers, etc. However as an example if you as a tank aren't able to or don't take space because every time you peek out you explode or you start taking away your supports attention from the rest of their team, then you lose, you'll be the first to be blamed. "Just take more cover" also means less time spent actually playing the game and doing what you need to do. At some point you have to (and if you enjoy the game I hope you get to) play the game.
The problem you encounter when rejecting that advice is the truth that yes you could always play better. So much is within your control...
But if playing better means I have to sit behind a wall while i get pissed on and sang to because sojourn had rail and I peaked for the 3rd time in a 15 seconds... I might actually just hate this game.
the funny part is on ranks below masters the enemy will just pick a reaper/bastion and run at you all game and if your dps line isnt playing for angles to prevent that you are out of the game since their are not many tanks that cant do much against a reaper/bastion with the new passive+discord (together with discord their is only dva.....).
And even better the game was entirly like this before, supports where just better but at the end of day your win was still decided by the dps line.
widow maker running lobbies is another sideeffect of 1 tank
"playing cover" isn't the right way to look at it. playing SIGHTLINES is the correct way to look at things.
Cover serves 3 purposes, allowing you to chill and heal before you re-engage (so many tanks, even top 500 tanks will walk in with 60% hp and get blasted then complain about a lack of survivability, acting as an escape when you wouldn't be able to continue fighting, and controlling *exactly how much damage* you're taking at any given time.
You can do a lot as a tank by understanding sightlines and angles, you don't always have to let all 5 members of the enemy team look at you to make a play (and the times that you are forced to do so are usually because they're playing very grouped up which means you have a lot of uncontested off angles to abuse).
you just show case you know nothing baout what "just learn to play cover" means. supports cant out heal constant damage. using cover allows your supports to stablize you. LEarn to pushin than back up before you are critical.
So funny that they stole the anti-heal passive from Paladins, but didn’t play for more than 5 minutes to learn that Rejuvenate exists.
thats next years change
last time i've played paladins, rejuvenate weren't able to counter anti-heal if the player was actively engaged in combat, may be it had changed in those like 5 years, idk.
People in OW cry and cry about the spawn run and trickling in, meanwhile Paladins just gives you a mount and goes "there problem solved" LOL
@@DRUKENHOBO LMAO
@@BasilDesius to my knowledge, rejuvenate has always directly countered anti-heal, ever since it was first added
Here's a fun fact! My community who runs 6v6 games everyday. Got an entire lobby of Master and GM players to play 6v5 to wear the 5v5
team had all the buffs the normal 5v5 has against the 6v6 team where all the buffs are eliminated including passives. After playing more than 20 games for a few days the 5v5 team won 1/2 of the games.
We have power creeped the game to such a degree that five players with all their buff are almost as strong as 6 players. We are right back where we started. The devs have never known how to make the game fun for tanks.
that’s actually horrifying lol
I am searching so long for a community that actually does 6v6 scrims (better would be multiple teams that do it on a regular basis....so far I didnt find anyone).
So hearing that sentence makes me rlly curious.
I think overwatch is way too fast pace to make good use out of a minimap, but maybe that's just personal bias, I don't quite like minimaps in games.
Hey this sounds great, where can I get in?
yes that is literally the point i dont understand, remove a player and buff everyone's general throughput to be on par with that 6 man team of before. that was the entire goal of what they did and it was done purposefully. that isnt hidden info
Also i love the fact they increased everyones hp by 25%, but buggest increase in tanks health is 17%
Cuz you'll have 750 ho orissa then
@@omarsali2990 rework fortify= no problem
Just make it last 1 second with chrages like zarya bubles and it will not be as cancerous as she is rn
It wasn't a 25% health increase across the board. Whoever told you that was lying. Hell at this point several characters like Zen and Mauga have had their health reduced since the initial buffs.
@@albinofroggy ok 200 hp heroes got 50 health which is 25% and for 250 and 300 hp heroes those are 20 and 16%
@@avadanocum6495 that destroys the utility and identity of the character. no.
Please hire this man as a consultant for the balance team.
Overwatch doesn't want to be balanced. It thrives off of "finally the game will be good" patches and why I haven't played in years.
Or, bring everything back to formula and leave it alone.
There is no way to balance tanks in 5v5 there just isnt . The format is the problem not the balance it self what ever you do Tank will feel shit in 5v5 and it will keep beeing that way the babying of the support role were Blizzard is willing to chang the entire game over nerfing healing at all makes it even worse but in the end 5v5 is the problem for tanking no balance will chang that
@@xythiera7255And I think that was because Overwatch was originally designed as a 6v6 game, and then OW2 just made it 5v5 to try to address issues with role queue and double shield.
They would have to fire the "I want problems always" guy to make room on the team.
"New dps passive that slows down healing! Using cover is going to be super important now more than ever"
Me on support- *Watches teammate a-d spam to avoid shots from literally the entire enemy team while in front of cover which blocks LOS with supports* 😑
"Supports, why didn't you adjust?"🤓🤣
Reposition to support your team simple as that if you cant see them its your fault not theirs. ML7 never gets LOS'ed because he has the ability to walk around and heal.
@@terellcase9231 A good chunk of the time, you can be literally touching the back of the tank, hold W the frame that they start moving forward, and they will still outrun you past multiple corners to the point that you can't get to them to heal them, when playing as Ana especially.
@@MetroAndroidUhm I don't know ANYTHING about this game, but if your ally is outrunning you while you're trying to heal them, they clearly don't appreciate being healed and you should pick someone else to heal that bothers to play with you instead of playing a 1v1 game. And if it's a bot, well, bot's are unreliable anyway as a teammate.
I barely ever pick healers in these kinda games but if someone just walks away I get annoyed with it REALLY fast and just go after the closest person that is a low health that isn't actively walking away from me.
@MetroAndroid you shouldnt be touching the tank you have a sniper and a whole kit to shut down attempts on your life stay close enough to heal and dont waste darts by sleeping a rando for no reason. I see yall do it all the time as soon as a fight starts yall throw every ability then wonder why you keep getting jumped.
the problem is that they either need to rebuild the game and characters from the ground up (which is essentially making ow 3), or go back to 6v6 and give it a proper chance. too many aspects of the game were designed around 6v6 and they showed they don't have the competence to make 5v5 a proper experience either.
It wouldn't be OW3. It would be ACTUALLY finishing OW2
But I hear your point
@@AntonioMartinez-yc6qjIt would still be OW1 basically. This isn’t a new game now and it won’t be later.
@@AntonioMartinez-yc6qjthey promised us loads of stuff outside of PvP and even lied when telling us. Meaning they knew.
Just like how they know how bad 5v5 is but dont care lol
In order for tanks to be able to work as a single tank, they'll all need:
1. A way to resist hostile CC effects (whether it's negating them, temporary immunity, or even a flat CC reduction across the board for being a tank)
2. Higher hp (they need to be able to actually last longer than 5 seconds)
3. A passive that's actually usable (like, say, damage reduction when within a certain radius if a teammate, to encourage actually protecting the team)
4. Some kind of CC ability to force enemies to be where you want them to he (whether it's a stun, knockdown, chain or whatever)
Tanks should, in my opinion, have at least 150 more base HP than the highest health non-tank hero (which, luckily, they all fall into, with the lowest tank health being 525 for Junker Queen and Ramattra when in role queue). Do I think the lower health tanks could do with a buff? Sure, especially considering Junker Queen is a brawler who relies on damage over time to sustain herself, and Ramattra is supposed to be a mid-frontline brawler with long cooldowns.
This is all my opinion, if anyone has anything they'd like to add to the conversation feel free to say so
the mauga buffs really were a decision that was made
Truly a blizzard moment of all time
In OW1, I was strictly a DPS main, yet I swear I have no idea how OW1's problems were pitted on "Tank synergies". From launch in 2016 up until double shield meta, the Tanks were fine. Sigma was specifically overpowered and Orisa was overbuffed, they could have just been toned down or reworked. Even then, double shield only existed due to the sustain of Supports like Brig & Bap. They just keep on adding like a hundred bandaids to a game bleeding to death.
And the bandaids aren't even going in the right spot
True, double shield would not have been such a problem if you could kill them up close, but that was impossible as orisa and sig for some reason had better brawl abilities than brawl tanks and too much aoe heal and immortalities. If they nerfed sig shift, orisa shift and bap and brig a bit, double shield would still have been viable, but not nearly as problematic as it was.
@@nic0856 Exactly, Samito even brought up how if they continued to support OW1 by adding J.Queen & Ramattra, in a rush comp, those two would have rolled over Sigma/Orisa. While also being two fun tanks to play which would of helped the Tank queue times.
I definitely would have loved to play J.Queen as an off-tank.
it’s funny because the downfall of 6v6 was powercreep. imo 5v5 had potential. the ow2 beta was actually a lot of fun and the game felt good. it wasn’t power-crept. but IMMEDIATELY after they went on to buff supports to an insane amount. which is exactly what they did in ow1. compare 2016 ow to 2021 ow, the most healing you could achieve in 2016 was a mercy and lucio, then ana after she came out. 2021, you had bap, moira, and brig, all with INSANE healing numbers. in early ow2 the problem wasn’t as bad. but then we got the brig ult rework, multiple bap buffs even tho he wasn’t bad, mercy buffs, kirikos entire kit, etc. it’s crazy how they made the exact same mistakes they made in ow1 and still haven’t figured out a solution.
That's what always gets me: double shield was entirely fixable. Orisa was one of the main offenders, she got reworked almost immediately in OW2 and lost her shield. That change alone a year earlier could have put a huge dent in the shield wall. We lost a tank for nothing.
haven't finished the video yet, but your explanation of the 3 main attributes of tanks is exactly right. recently, spilo made a video about his experience at the creator summit, and he got to ask the developers what their balancing philosophy for tanks was. i think their response is telling, and shows why they don't quite understand what to change. they said that their approach, and only 2 things they look at, are their health and their damage, with more health tanks having less damage and vice-versa. neither mobility nor range are factored in. i'm sure most of us can look at that and say that that is a very reductive way to look at tank balance, but it's what they use, and i believe that that's likely why they can't get the tank balance down.
It’s baffling that someone can be paid to make balancing decisions and not understand anything about the fundamentals behind which balance actually works
@@realth8572God I miss Jeff
They know the fundamentals of how players approach the game but they have to balance their design philosophy with how players define the roles. I can only guess that they stick to damage and health numbers cuz that's the easiest way to connect their view of tanks with that of players.
@@vividao4123tbf, i don’t think that (at least a vast majority of) the players know what they want. i understand that point, though, because tank also has a psychological problem of being unfun to play.
"The nightmare balancing monster"
Im pretty sure they shorten that to Activision-Blizzard.
💀
You speaking nothing but facts. What you say makes sense and its always how I felt about 5v5. The DPS passive doesn't help. Sustain tanks feel a bit unplayable. 5V5 powercreep is insane. 6v6 needs to comeback.
Dps passive doesnt help becouse they instantly basicly up everybodys HP and healing is also basicly the same so DPS does more dps but you also have to go throw more HP and dmg nullifying abilitys
Samito was right
we need 6v6 right now
@@rage_tv4493would you be okay with 2 years of no new content and updates so they can get the game ready for 6v6 again? No okay then shut up and stop the cope. 6v6 wouldn't fix shit. Especially considering, NONE OF THE PEOPLE ASKING FOR 6V6 WOULD PLAY MAIN TANK ANYWAYS.
@@georgealvarez1195 6v6 would absolutely fix the game also it wouldn’t take 2 years of no content. if you think pumping out skins and half assed garbage is “content” you are truly lost. also who tf wouldn’t want to be able to play rein again? 2 tanks was the reason rein worked. if you think reins pick rate wouldn’t sky rocket you are once again lost.
@@georgealvarez1195I’d rather play the content drought version of the game
@@georgealvarez1195yes. I would. Yes, I would play main tank because the main tanks were some of the best ego trips I’ve ever had in OW1. Already 80% of the current content is locked behind microtransactions, 10% is hero releases, and the other 10% is actually trash. Last 2-3 events have been literal 1 day and then I quit because it feels WORSE than QP.
If you could let me go nano-Rein with two Zarya bubbles by not playing OW for a year I’d quit tomorrow. Fuck it, double main tank with Winston/Rein was situationally good on defense like Volskaya first point. If you gave me the ability to do a Rein/Ramm rush comp or dumb stuff like Doom/Ball CC based dive, I’d trade it in 100% compared to another fucking Mauga meta within 2 months. Wouldn’t give a fuck if it took 3 years because I’m sure as shit not playing it now anyway.
I believe counterpicking will always be a problem in the 5v5 format. Certain tank abilities just shut down other ones (especially when combined with dps like Mei/Sombra/Bastion), and there's little you can do about it aside from switching or being much better than them. Tanks like Mauga and Orisa, which just get in the other tank's face, makes playing other tanks annoying even if you do win.
I also think those tanks in particular do a very poor job of teaching good overwatch habits to new players. With Rein/Winton despite being beginner friendly you learn positioning, staging, cover usage, and diving/brawling. With Mauga and Orisa it's just get in the other tank's face, cycle your cooldowns, and that's it.
12:14 I RELATE TO THIS SO MUCH THAT'S ACTUALLY CRAZY
That's why I think a minimap or a radar of some sort could help, I could know where my teammates who I thought were right behind me just a few seconds ago are actually running away from me. It's not like I can focus on footsteps or something to know where they are, and it feels clunky to turn around to check by myself. If I'm getting pressured, I just don't have time for it. I've tried, but with the amount of shit going on around me, it's really hard to take the time to actually understand the positionning of your team and take a decision based on that. Hence why a simple 2D radar could help in that regard
real
“There’s too much health/shield!”
Blizzard increase damage.
“There’s too much damage!”
Blizzard increase health and shields.
Repeat.
They hyped the whole Tank buff only to slap us in the face with anti-heal, projectile increases, and support buffs. It makes Tanking meaningless and shows they don’t care. Now Rein is left in the dust. The only Tanks this season has been Doom, Mauga, Sigma, and Ball just because you could live longer.
It honestly feels like there's a two separate teams in blizzard, that hate eachother, one playing tanks other one dps, first want to make them insufferable strong, second one want to play valiant so they just trying to make everyone dps and make tanks life as short as possible.
Rein should honestly be able to swing his hammer whilst shielded. There, that is really all.
Or give him 1.6 k hp base and reduce his shield to 250 hp, same as Brigette, for lore accuracy.
maybe my idea is terrible but talking about rein made me think about something where his shield constantly regenerates at 2% a second and taking any source of health change, whether it be damage or healing or even dealing damage, would fill it back up way faster at a certain %, and damage to the barrier would put in a certain amount of % back into him as health
@@tanzim37 The tank players want to be able to play the game. The DPS players want the play of the game.
12:15 as a tank player who mainly plays brawl tanks this part hits so close to home except kind of in the opposite way since in my experience nobody ends up peeling for eachother except the tank if it's possible to do so, everyone else just ignores them and looks away
a big part of brawl tanks is brawling which in turn distracts a couple people on the enemy team from shooting and makes them worry about the 7ft armorclad hunk in their face making your team able to take maybe a 4v3/3v3 which protects your own teammates by having them worry about less possible sustain/damage while also pushing yourself towards a won fight, however if you're playing ramattra for example you don't have any strict disengage tools that'll not leave your teammates for dead if you have to peel for your backline/stop a backcap, you can nemesis form and run but that sacrifices so much space you'll be ran over by the other 4 in seconds, you can drop a void barrier and backpedal but that's the same as running with neme just slower. you're trapped relying on your more capable dps or supports to be on flankwatch and to peel for eachother which from my experience happens once in a blue moon, yet somehow because overwatch players are so full of themselves it's apparently always the tank's fault that they died to a flanker there's no posibility they could've 1v1d the flanking genji and won or tried to get someone else involved because it's obviously the tank's fault for not dropping everything, going over to them, doing some tom and jerry grab them by the leg and spinning about to throw them away type move before going back to brawling. then if you listen to their constant whining and babbling to go peel for them when they get dove, your dps don't disengage with you which will lead to them instantly dying because their big blue transparent piece of cover is suddenly gone which then leaves the fight lost and you actually at fault for losing the fight which your dps players will definitely let you know about.
personally I don't really care about the insults or whatever's hurled at me, its kinda like the equivalent of a chihuahua growling at you but the part that gets under my skin is the people who constantly blame the tank for everything and instead of using that time they spend typing and microanilising they could reflect on themselves and maybe get better so they could actually win those 1v1s, then they wouldn't have to complain about the frontline defining character not coming to the backlines to help swat a fly and wipe their ass for them since apparently the tank is also the entire team's babysitter
The first Overwatch video that isn't just a "this is why MY role is bad and why everyone else is having more fun than me" discussion.
There's just such a large gap between skill levels and the effects of issues and "coaching" that this game has that cannot be covered or explained by one "pro" player when they constantly live in bias. Your video has highlighted not only the community's skewed view on what is experienced and what players need to do, but has shown the flaws we've basically been saying that's been Team Overwatch's intentional oversight regarding balance and change.
Good fucking shit, my dude.
Thank you 😊 I think the main thing to put across is that raising the skill floor for tanking and healing isn’t necessarily a good thing, especially when coming in under that floor feels even worse than before!
what people dont really talk about is just how much counter balance off tanks provided, characters like hog were allowed to exist without being the most insufferable thing in the world because d.va could be played as an offtank to matrix the damage, ana was allowed to have anti heal nade because of matrix and bubble, now that theres only one tank in play and most of the time its a brawl tank, characters like kiri need to be put it in deal with anti and characters with their own niche like hog need to be rebalanced and reworked over and over, same thing is gonna happen to ball or rein soon
The biggest argument for 6v6 is them saying that they only removed the tank cause of q times. They need to make tank more fun or we will be in 4v4 with 0 tanks soon. And if they make tank more fun then 6v6 is just the better format it would probably even make tank more enjoyable again. Especially with more heroes available now i feel like tank would actually be a really fun role in 6v6.
Yeah but sadly I didnt find a single 6v6 scrim search on any discord so far since the change to 5v5 so sadly its either not rlly wanted or ppl dont even try it.
I would be so open to 6v6 scrims and try it out with ppl on similar skill levels so we rlly know if its op or not.
Oh man I cant wait for Overwatch 3
@@LatencyProblemnah overwatch 3 is 5v3
Tanking has always been team reliant, (which feels terrible when your team doesn't even follow you into battle) and has always felt like a thankless task. There's a reason why tank queues were instant and DPS/Support queues were 8-10 mins at the end of Overwatch 1. There's a reason why Overwatch removed a tank and balanced the game that way.
In case it isn't obvious, there are very few people that actually enjoy the pressures of tanking. Especially if your team can't even follow you into battle.
The end of OW1 was abandoned for years due to the development of OW2. The game was left in a terrible state where the meta tanks were very boring. The highest played tanks are Rein, Zarya, and D.VA, but by the end they were all terrible picks for years due to the mess of balance.
Bro I feel you as a doom main, I cant tell you how many times Ive punched 3+ people down to half health only to get melted because my entire team was somehow unable to shoot a single genji. Or better yet with these mauga buffs they just shoot mauga when hes pocketed by 2 supports. Like hes not gonna die pick somewhere else to shoot.
« historically been a crucial and rewarding role »
« rewarding » Damn, guess I've been missing them since 2016. Even on GM it always felt like it was the most ungrateful
The worst thing is that I'm sure they lowered the DPS passive because of the supports, otherwise they wouldn't have buffed Ana's grenade. In theory I always was in favor of a healing reduction in combat, but if you're going to have only one tank then it has to be weaker. It works in Paladins because they have 1 support and 2 tanks usually and it can go up to 90% healing reduction. You just can't have the same thing with only a single tank
The consequences of having 1 tank gets more pronounced with every season.
I’m mid gold on tank, I love playing Rein and JQ and most of the time I question myself after dying in a team fight
“What was I supposed to do?”
The game feels so out of control for tanks almost like you’re hoping everyone else does the work while the tank pick up the scraps.
I started ow2 as a tank enthusiast, wanting to main rein. Now you can find me being a kicking floating robot in sup quene.
It's frustrating that the devs are completely ignoring the existence of ultimate abilities while trying to figure out which balancing knob they need to tune in order to solve the game's accessibility/ttk problems. Ults have a low barrier to entry! They're good at ending fights quickly! That's why ults charged so fast in early Overwatch 1; BECAUSE they made the game more accessible for new players and kept fights from dragging on forever!
The game only started having issues with "all or nothing" ttk (and by extension, tanks turning into a chore to play via damage creep) once the devs power-shifted the game's "Primary Source of Burst" from _ultimate abilities_ to _basic cooldowns._ This was an especially horrible decision to make with support heroes.... The OG support roster didn't have any burst 'kill denial' on cooldown for a _very good reason._
The OG supports had ALL of their kill denial gated behind their ultimate ability (trance, sound barrier, 2016 rez) - which kept offensive ults in check & gave support players a "savior moment" high to chase WITHOUT turning normal combat into a forever slog!
One of my favorite moments in OW1 was when an enemy Zarya used a grav to combo with a Hanzo ult, and I simply ulted as Zen to save my entire team. Got play of the game with that and a core Overwatch memory.
Again, this is revisionism. The problem is that it meant that if your support died once too quickly then they couldn't clutch out, and you just got rolled because they would always have more burst than you since ultimates charged so fast.
The real reason why ppl dont play tank is because there's only 1 tank spot and 90% of the blame goes to you all the time, meaning you're 90% more likely to get mass reported and suspended which leads to less players playing tank because they are literally getting banned from the game which results in longer queue times for DPS and healers.
I don’t typically watch overwatch content but the video and edit quality here are very high. Keep up the good work, you’ll go far!
Thank you, it takes way too much effort to trick people into enjoying watching me talk 😅
"just take cover more" being advice for playing *the tank* is fucking insane. The tank's job should be *being* the cover, that's what a tanks job is, taking damage for their team. Overwatch design is so stupid
“From coordination to conservation of resources” bring back 6v6
As a gold doomfist most of the cover is easy what I run into every single game is my team not knowing what dooms role is. Like I can play 2 ways 1 is to dive on squishies and burn them down to start an engagement (the right and objectively more fun way to play) or I can do what my brainlet teamates want and hur dur punch other tank back 5 feet on cooldown because god forbid a dive tank actually dives and expects his team to not stand around a corner never committing then when I do get burned down its my fault because imI only killed 2 before getting burned down or I just catch every cooldown on the enemy team.
I've said this before on other Tank discussion videos but Tank is currently a "devil's tear" problem. In 6v6, Tanks could be more vulnerable and take risk because that could switch out and "take turns" taking heat. In 5v5, there is no point that the Tank can take a break other than a team wipe. This results in what is effectively a pressure chamber focused directly on the most vulnerable individual and preventing them from taking any risk.
The reason that we got 5v5 was two fold; tripple shield, and the lack of Tank players leading to long queue times. Tripple shield is more representative of a worse problem where they bleed the lines between roles. Examples of this being how characters like Moira have been out performing the dps role or Brig out performing the Tank role. The lack of Tank players is more of a broader gaming industry problem of which the only real solution would be to make the Tank role play better, of which Blizzard has proven to be extensively confused.
I've been wondering for a bit now, but how would a format of having 1 of each classes, and 2 flexes would do? Basically it's the classic 222 format of 6v6, but you have to give a class up due to having one less player.
The idea is that you can have 2 tanks again, but you have to give up either a DPS or Support, which would then open up some kind of vulnerability for the Enemy Team to exploit, but in doing so opens themselves up to a different kind of vulnerability. The effect would create a kind of Rock Paper Scissors effect, which would hopefully mean more diversity among team lineups. Not to the point of everyone's constantly changing characters or to remove certain Core/META characters. The first would be unfun and the second would be impossible and also unfun, as reliable characters serves as a Anchor to balance, or as a guidepost to compare others too.
Note that I don't play Overwatch, instead I just have perhaps an unhealthy obsession and interest in video game design, and would like to hear from someone in the know what they think about it.
The change in format to one tank came with a substantial amount of scope creep for what the tank did, so all of that creep would have to be walked back because tanks currently are just better dps who have less lethal pressure options. There’s no reason why it isn’t possible, just would require so much work to revert that they are essentially reverting 3 years of dev time. 😬
I play a lot of no limits (which is an arcade mode that lets you pick any number of the same hero/role/etc) and the strongest comps for OW2 you see in that mode are 2 support 3 tank or 2 support 2 tank 1 dps. You do not want this in the main game, I promise you. This would end up mirroring the infamous GOATS meta where you have an unkillable, infinite sustain team that just balls up on objectives.
@@realth8572 I suppose you're correct. I've been holding onto this idea for a while now, and it probably would've been good when OW2 started, but after 9 Seasons in probably better to maintain the status quo than to do multiple drastic changes that drives players away from the game. Maybe 3-5 years after this balancing change could they could implement such drastic changes as part of a massive update, like "Overwatch Reborn" or "Overwatch 2 2.0" or whatever, but for now probably best to work with what they got. They've dug this grave, might as well make themselves comfortable instead of digging a new grave.
Watching the mess that is the OW2 balancing from the outside is so bizarre, while I don’t know the intricacies of OW2 I love playing tanks in other games in similar genres and the best feeling when you’re a tank is either working with another tank to become an unstoppable force or going ham with a support doing everything you possibly can to keep them alive.
Seeing both your tank buddy vanish into thin air and the effectiveness of the support you’ve done everything you could possibly do to keep alive being reduced just makes the role not worth dealing with the pressure of being the guy everyone wants to shoot at
Also while I’m again not super familiar with the game a TANK having to hide in order to be effective instead of being the damage sponge seems like a rather bizarre direction to take the type
as a gm tank player from OW 1 its just so frustrating when i am forced to give space as rein because my team cant shoot a tracer, or when im forced to divert resources to a lone flanking soldier because my dps wont turn around. the game is just a nightmare when 1 tank has to do the roles of main tank and off even though they were all so obviously designed for just one of either. every tank that gets designed is going to have to be like the orisa rework, just tanks that can do everything while also feeling like garbage to play.
You know healing isnt the issue when A FAIR amount of the time my team gets like 5-10k heals more and we still lose.
I feel like that comes down to your team taking more damage and having heals dumped into them instead of doing something to push an advantage on support, since most of them can apply pressure with their cooldowns and damage. It's the ffxiv approach to healing where you don't have to heal as much if you kill the thing doing the damage. If one team is closing out a fight sooner by either securing the kills or pressuring the other team off the objective, their own healing numbers will be lower because they didn't take as much damage to begin with. (Note: ain't saying you aren't providing pressure, impossible to know how you play from a random youtube comment per say XD)
blizzard never considers what is fun to watch / play when buffing shit thats the problem "mauga is hard meta in pro play korea to the point where people get happy in chat when they see an orisa thats how bad it is..."
As an outsider, it sounds like they lowered the skill floor in a lot of places, but the skill floor for tanks is higher than elsewhere
The tank role feels like ass cuz they made tanks have weaknesses that could be helped or negated by the other tank in the team so now that they’re solo they have to swap to do anything
They will keep breaking the game. Ive gotten used to it now. Its just another game now
Real and sad.
I have played tank since 2019, I have peaked plat, nowhere near good at the game, but this season is like fighting through the layers of hell just to hit one cooldown
Im so confused on rein like why still have a flimsy shield. It's like his whole thing he has nothing else like make it last longer than a split second.
I am curious what you think about changing ranked to have a pick/ban system closer to that of League (My main change would be that either it is ONLY bans that are voted for by the teams, or straight up league champ select except maybe allowing players to pick secondaries)? It could both help with overpowered stuff since people could ban it until it is nerfed (like Day 1 Echo (the last time I played OW)), and help one-tricks not have to deal with hard counters as often. It would probably take a lot of tweaking to determine number of bans and if forcing players to pick their character (and maybe a second character) before the match starts could help, but seems worth a shot. I will say in League it really does help with the game since you always know the enemy team comp and generally how they play, as well as prevents counter pick wars (which happens a lot more in fighting games).
I think the “it would need a lot of tweaking” is terrifying. Think about the worst possible system of this type that blizzard could release. I think the concept is really rough with only 40ish heroes as well. There’s not enough diversity, at a certain point you’re banning metas and playstyles instead of heroes. I also don’t trust blizzard not to use it as a balancing crutch so they can spice up the “flavour of the month stuff” and let the playerbase work out what they broke the most this week.
going for 5v5 like paladins is a neat idea until the fact that 95% of the time the best paladins comp has 2 tanks
6v6 presented perfect symmetry so that you could almost always have 2 sets of 3 heroes coordinating into different angles. You could have 2 tanks on the front line with a high sustain healer, while you ran a set of dive dps with a Kiriko or another healer like Lucio and Zen. There were so many different permutations to play.
I have an idea for a new passive, in addition to the current passive for tanks. When tanks take damage. They gain a small amount of ult charge depending on how much damage was taken. This will encourage them to be on the front lines while mitigating or blocking damage. This will allow them to play more aggressivly.
we just need a 2nd tank again, it just feels so much better having an extra person to help me protect the team and push forward
I have an account thats in gold to play with my silver/gold/plat friends. It blows my mind just how much they freak out when every single healing resource isn't pumped into them. Even after the changes they hate Zen and they hate lucio, because low healing number = bad. The problem is that even though they're wrong, it takes a long time for people's thought process to change with this stuff, particularly in low ranks where people are less receptive to change. Heck, echo players in low ranks *still* obsessively copy tanks at the beginnings of fights, and that hasn't been the correct way to do it for a very long time now.
Also, I think part of the problem comes from how terrible it can feel to play against a gigabuffed tank. Some tanks can feel super oppressive to play against, especially now that we're in 5v5 so all the tanks are individually stronger and especially especially in low ranks where people just shoot the tank no matter what.
Maybe now that we've gone through this season they really will start treating Tank Heroes differently from the rest since there's only one of them per team. Its only been since launch that we've been asking that the passive apply to all CC affects and now there's the DPS passive too....
my thoughts: Blizzard should take a note from the apex playbook and give tanks a "fortified" buff where they take reduced damage. both fixed instant deletion and the dps passive cancer that has been hitting us this season
Been saying for months tanks need a new passive than includes broad damage reduction and a decrease to damage from status effect abilities like discord and burn. Also anti should be reworked to only decrease healing taken by 50%. And as a dps, the passive shouldn’t be as impactful for the tank role
Dev team has said they’re not open to this option for whatever reason 😅
Congrats on 1k🎉🎉🎉
Thank you
Solution? Bring back 6 v 6.
The problem is that Overwatch said "Paladins is doing it,lets copie them" but the problem is that they dont understand why Paladins mecanics works,and yes they copie Paladins,I play both and the changes in the newes patch is Paladins but worst
ok so this is my hot take from someone who played OW from day -10 to about 2 months ago. The reason why 6v6 is so much better then 5v5 is everyone can have a buddy. tanks can cover each other, Dps can focus a target together and supports can cover each other. This was just natural, but you could also do split 3-3 or just full ball into a group of 6 and rarely odd 2-4 splits or 1-5.
IMO OW2 from the start was a failure and OW never should of stopped. It had issues, but they where mostly fixed with hero reworks or numbers tweaks. Orisa not having a shield pretty much kills double shield. Sig - Rein comps aren't double shield since rein wants to get close and can't shoot during his shield uptime.
Hell, even with 1-5 that 1 who split off was usually a dedicated flanker or sniper, either moving around the flanks to pick off enemy supports or standing back to provide long-ranged firepower to the team fight, and pick off enemy flankers.
truly amazing how the role that has 50% the player capacity still gets to be the least played
Played tank for 7 years in OW1 and loved it , even in the worst of metas, but in OW2 my love for the role has completely disappeared. It’s boring and uninteresting now . I loved the feel of working with a OT and setting up plays . To me the duo tank plays was the most iconic part of OW . Now that aspect is completely dead. I just do not believe removing a tank from the game was the best thing they could come up with .
5v5 ruined the game. The off tank role was the soul of the game, and it will never be the same without it.
I heard an idea that I don't know if it would be helpful for tank but here it goes there is a thing in paladins that makes debuff effects shorter maybe this would be useful for tank cause things like discord orb or anti nade
Blizzard has unfortunately been quoted at the creator summit as not being open to this at all. Really sucks to know the easiest and best option is out for no reason
me when i forget ppl smurf for fun in bronze and the buffs/nerfs mean nothing to the ppl who are actually bronze
I can't wait to see TH-cam recommend Flats watching this video where he adds nothing of value to the conversation.
All roads end in react content 🙏
The only man I ever go to for Overwatch content anymore. Keep it up!
Thank you, will do!
I'm glad TH-cam pushed this to me, you're well spoken and I think you made really strong points. Its going to be very interesting to see what Blizzard does about this situation they've got the game back into. One more sub towards that vocation lol keep up the good work
Blizzard: "Should we revert the changes that massively increased tank queue times like role queue and shield nerfs?"
Blizzard: "No, take out a tank, that'll fix it"
Its embarrassing blizzard has over 400 people working on this game.
What are they even doing
instead of universal role passives, i think heroes should be separated into subclasses within their roles that have different passives
Two things, for one, speaking as someone between Plat and Diamond, you are not down here if you actually think people are "giving up brawl tanks" to play dive/Sigma, my god do I wish that was the case instead of both tanks picking a stale, brainless brawl mirror and staring at eachother all game.
Secondly, what possibly is "degenerate" about hyper speed dive comps like ball+tracer? Quite literally they are the most demanding of mechanical and coordination skill across all 3 roles, as well as often having the least of the sustain you complain about. I simply don't follow your logic that the S9 changes are bad for the role, they literally encourage you to play the tanks with the most individual skill expression. The reason people stop playing tank, or why they feel bad about it in these ranks is that sustain has been so high for the past year that the games boiled down to which supports did the most, all of these changes encourage increasing the pace of the game, and playing a more proactive tank style.
My honest opinion is rein should be HEAVY. I mean 80% CC reduction heavy. Including zen kinc, including hog pull (it just gets you very short distance).
If Rein gets on you, you should be punished, not just boop him away as lucio or ashe or zen or half the tanks. Hes here, you are fucked.
I wouldn't mind if he 1 hit ko dps/support tbh
That would be a good change, honestly.
Keep the hog pull though. Pulling Rein into your own team should be punishable offense, for all intents and purposes
Broken, nah.
Neglected, definitely.
Tanks just aren't as threatening as they were in the past. 1v1ing a tank as anything but a tank should be a risk, but it just isn't the case anymore.
What if they gave the tank a new passive where they they get 15-20% protection against all debuffs, for example knock back is reduced, Ana’s Nade doesn’t last as long, zens discord doesn’t do full damage, sleep dart is reduced, dps passive is reduced, ult charge gain is reduced, etc. that way they actually feel like a tank and have more survivability
hot take
give tanks all of the cc give dps all of the dmg over time and give supports all of the aoe healing
this way every role has its respective strengths
I think the tipping point of all this mess was Genji's deflect cancel buff and Reaper's teleport buff. Looks simple on paper but it has a chain reaction effect. If A hero can do B then rest of the roster should be able to do C otherwise they are moot. Chain reaction, power creep, mobility creep. Cheezy game.
I think changing discord orb from damage taken increase to life steal when attacked would go a long way in making tanks less miserable.
It still creates focus fire without having tanks blow up.
Additionally; instead of changing the value of the DPS passive, have it scale proportionally to damage dealt by the DPS player.
Tanks already reduce damage or absorb it through defensive cooldowns; indirectly reducing the effect on tanks.
What if each hero had a unique passive?
They used to.
Self heal was mercy’s unique passive
Steadfast is knockback reduction which is Rein’s unique passive
The only hero in the game to have unique passives in OW2 are Genji and Reaper and even then Hanzo took Genji’s double jump and made it better and then there is Mauga; you can guess which hero passive he took.
@@cantbelieve5231
I see...
@@oscarguzman3017 oh and i forgot roadhog used to have a unique passive where he reduced ult charge.
I'll die on this hill but Season 9 open queue is so much more fun in a coordinated group compared to the current role queue. Role queue wise other than mauga being so fucking oppressive to the point of sig or mirror, thats been rather unfun and mini boss zen.
If someone has to be the "carry" happiest for it to be dps and I hate how cheesy support cooldowns are --Happy for them to keep all their bullshit --but I want a drawback--- like using lamp reduces your healing output for 10 seconds --teleport maybe reduces your movement speed -- maybe suzu reduces damage for 20 seconds -- maybe lifegrip roots you for 5 seconds --anything to keep the impact but make them less braindead.
Tanking wise - the most unfun thing is the constantly bait and hide to clear discord -not fun gameplay. I completely disagree with the balance team who say counterswapping as tank isn't as impactful as we think --the neutral is too important --tank ults are not easy to use --support cooldown just flat negate them. As I'm pretty much switching most times after leaving spawn. Season 9 was a move in the right direction --solid improvement - playing out in the open without cooldowns should get you killed.
I remember playing 52 pickup, good game
ima be honest the logic and balls of this update was envyable
what game is that at 2:18
Age of Empires II Definitive Edition
The dps passive would be amazing if only we had 2 tanks so we could rotate then so one goes in gets burned pulls back and second goes in while we patch the first tank back up
Rein might actually need a 20% damage reduction passive, by default, at all times, just so he can have an uptime of a LITERAL second when he drops shield. Reins dying before they can swing the hammer ONCE, from full health, is absurd. You already need your DPS to shoot your target so you can benefit from the heal reduction, so why in the world can you not as a tank at least stay alive for an extended period of time without someone to babysit you, while in the middle of a fight? I say damage reduction since it's probably better than giving him around 2000 hp. I don't care if it's a team game, it doesn't justify it, what's the point of being the size of a semi truck if all you do is die in 0.3 seconds without your defense ability up? And that goes for the other tanks as well, they can't kill anything with a support glued to it if the DPS doesn't apply the heal de-buff unless you do everything right and even then it might not happen, so why can't you at least stay alive for an extended period of time in a fight without needing to live behind a rock 50% of the game, waiting for cooldowns ...
Tank should be the front line, the big thing that disrupts the enemy team/makes space for their team, taking an entire team to bring down, and being impossible to blow up before you have time to react, unless you maybe get thrown off the map or something like that.
DPS should be the pick off small health bars role on their own, regardless if the targets have a support healing them or not.
And support should be the "help the other people do their job better/with less risk" role, not the "You can't die now unless someone hits 100% of their shots." role.
Tank used be balanced you know before they removed the support tank. (aka one who job was to tag in when other tank need time to heal.)
18:26 This is why I exclusively play doom and ball. Doom still feels watered down with less movement based skill compared to the glory days of DPS doom but is still decent (even with bugs). If you're good with tether physics/wall jumps/bounces, ball is extremely fun too... However, I understand why both of these tanks feel horrible to play with/against; they're ultra cheesy and do not fit the typical tank archetype. I refuse to play bullet sponge boring heroes for the sake of being "a tank". My job as tank it's to be the initiator and create space for my team to do something. I can't do that when I'm getting shut down by the trillions of CCs that get thrown at me and somehow it's my fault when I can't bait out every god damn CD under the sun.
To think this could all be avoided if blizzard had the balls to just introduce acceleration to movement and tell newbies to deal with it.
One fun thing as a paladins player is that we're suffering from a similar balancing problem that overwatch is having now for years.
There's a reason why only two tanks in the game don't have either a shield or a barrier, and one of them is just a chonky flank while the other has the lowest win rate in the game and often called "enemy ult generator." and the worst part 8s that we can't change it since everytime a tank gets buffed players start using it as a flank then gets nerfed again. People will do anything but playing tank as a tank.
Two tank meta is necessary in paladins, if it was only one no one would want to touch the role.
Dead game is dead. But we like pain..
Hey, GM Rein main here, really interesting video and thought I would give some of my own takes here as I actually disagreed with quite a bit of what you said.
- Projectile size changes: This change makes characters with small hitboxes disproportionately easier to hit than characters with larger hitboxes. For example, a character like Rein with a frontal area of lets say 3m*2m is affected by the 0.1m increase in radius to the projectile size much less than a character like Kiriko who has a 1.5m*0.5m hitbox (3.2 * 2.2 / (3*2) - 1 = 17% increase to the hittable area for Rein and a 1.7*0.7/(1.5*0.5) - 1 = 58% increase for Kiriko). In my opinion, when combined with the health buff this has actually been a net buff to tanks' survivability while making squishies easier to kill.
- DPS passive: I really like the DPS passive, overall. It allows for DPS to win more duels against supports, which before this patch were somehow often the better duellists. At high ranks I don't think the DPS passive is toooo bad on tanks; however, your take on the mid-low rank tanks was really interesting and something I'd not considered. That being said, I feel that the DPS passive is still only a small fraction of why playing tank is so miserable, a Rein mirror matchup with the DPS passive is still a lot more enjoyable than playing any tank into Mauga/Orisa without the DPS passive. All that being said I feel that everyone should agree on that the DPS passive should effect tanks less than squishies.
For me, I think that tanks have two main issues, the first being the presence of tank-busters within the game. The reason that tank busters are so problematic is that Blizzard has to attempt to balance tanks both in the presence and absence of tank busters. The presence of tank busters means that tanks need to have huge HP/resource pools so that they don't immediately explode when confronted with a Bastion. However, such large resource pools means that when not playing against tank busters many tanks can just roll the entire team, especially if they have an Ana rifle up their ass. By reducing/removing the tank-busting capabilities of problematic characters the overall strength of tanks could be reduced ensuring that they don't become oppressive.
My second issue is the efficacy of cooldowns on tanks. Because tanks have such large health pools, damage dealt to the tank is far less impactful than dealing damage to a squishy; however, cooldowns, and specifically debuffs, are just as impactful and much easier to land when placed on the tank. The two solutions to the I see are to give tanks more tools to deal with cooldowns, or to make cooldowns straight up less impactful on tanks. I personally prefer the first option, as I said earlier I'm a Rein main and so I've never been annoyed by nade or hack nearly to the same extent as Hog/Ball mains, and I also believe its far more interesting to have counter-play options available. I don't think its a coincidence that many of the most problematic tanks in OW (Mauga, Ball, Hog) have no form of cooldown mitigation, as they have to be balanced in such a way that they can run rampant when not facing their counters, and get bullied non-stop when they are.
How can you be a tank main and think that the dps passive is ok? People like you are the reason why tanking in this game will never get fixed. Thank you for contributing to the downfall of this god forsaken role my fellow "tank main".
@@user-gv5ig1vb8w I don't think the DPS passive is without flaws, as I mentioned above, I think the DPS passive should probably affect tanks less than it does squishies. My point is that I think the reaction to the DPS passive has been somewhat hyperbolic from many tank mains and that the DPS passive is a drop in the bucket when it comes to the issues with tanks (like my two main gripes that I mentioned above).
Someone else in the comment section mentioned that their main problem with tanks was that tanks either never die, or explode. To me, this seems like a sustain problem. In any game, you die when the damage you take is greater than the healing you receive, with your health pool basically being a timer for when damage is allowed to be greater than healing. However, with healing and damage numbers being cranked as high as they are rn, it means that the time you're allowed to take damage has been getting smaller and smaller. I think that the season 9 changes are a step towards fixing these issues, as lowering the sustain with the DPS passive has made the "unstoppable god" tank less of an issue while the health increase has made tanks explode less frequently.
I think the main effect the DPS passive will have on tanks is a playstyle shift, similar to how the removal of the off-tank changed how supports play. Tanks are now less able to just stand out in the open attempting to apply pressure non-stop and now need to apply more cyclic waves of pressure. As Realth said, this has always been the "correct" way to play tanks; however, it's now more important to play this way at low ranks as well, which unfortunately many lower-rank players struggle with. The reason I bring this up is that it took at least two whole seasons before the general playerbase figured out how new support was played after OW2's release; therefore, I don't think it's unreasonable to think we'll see a similar thing happen with tank players now.
As a new player, I agree wholeheartedly with everything said. I’ve played about 60~ games of tank and every single one has been miserable compared to DPS or support.
I used to be a wrecking ball main. Unfortunately ive had to switch mains to diva. I haven't played recently due to lack of motivation. Ball was the main reason i was playing the game.
I've thought a lot about this, being the only tank in your team sucks, even if tanks are made stronger because the entire team rests on your shoulders. Like dps and support are important to their team too, but if one of your dps dies you still have an other one who can do dps stuff, same with suppport, you still have someone to help you survive. But when your tank dies, there's nobody to protect your team (except like mei).
The issue is, we've seen what role queue looked like back in ow 1, dps (and supports to a lesser extent) had ridiculous queue time. You can't blame dps players, because the goal of every video game is to have fun, why would you force yourself into doing something you don't enjoy ? You can't really blame blizzard, you can to an extent, like if dps heroes didn't represent half of the cast there would be less dps players, but if you remember early overwatch, roles were pretty much evenly spread. The thing is we had 4 roles back then: Tank Attack Defense and Support. Attack heroes were good at ... attacking ? They were either super mobile (like trancer and genji) or jacks of all trade, so they could adapt to a lot of situations (soldier) and then you had defense heroes, who were very good at holding positions through area coverage (like widow hanzo, bastion and torb) or area denial (like mei with her wall and ultimate and I think sombra was a defense hero too, because she could deny health pack usage). The thing is both had different niches, but their goal was still winning fight through dealing damage, so attack and defense roles got fused into the damage role. So before we had 4 roles each housing about 1/4 of all heroes, and then they just fused two of the roles and we ended up with 3 roles, with one role housing half of the cast. I think this was their biggest mistake. Like attack/defense meant nothing so fusing them into one was a good idea, but they should have reworked some dps heroes into tanks and support, like they could've changed some defense heroes into tanks or supports (like torb bastion and mei as tanks and sombra as a support) in order to be closer to 1/3 of the characters in each roles.
Because of this, dps represented half of the cast, meaning that on paper half of the player base mains dps. Which means when playing ranked, your team would most likely be composed of like 1 tank main, 4 dps main and 1 support main in theory. So you would either end up with 1 tank, 1 support and 4 dps (which was a nightmare lmao) or if you got lucky two of your dps accepted to go tank and support, but now instead of having a balanced team, you end up with 1/3 of your team underperforming compared to what's expected of tanks/supports from your rank. And if you want to get good a something you need to specialize, meaning the higher you go in the ladder, bigger will be the gap between a player's best role and their second best.
I don't know if they took this into account when switching to role queue at all, but it honestly was the best thing to do just for that reason. Now you would be matched with people the same level as you, even if they're not on their main role
But new issue, now half of the player base get queue time so ridiculously big you could queue as tank, find a game and finish your game before a dps player (who started queuing before you of course) even found a game, and strangely enough, forcing half your player base to wait that long to play the game isn't a great idea, some dps players just started queuing as tanks or support (or just stopped playing), so the dps queuing time reduced a bit, but it was still way too long.
So with overwatch 2 they had to adress the issue, they either had to rework some dps heroes as tanks or supports (which would've been way more expensive to do than it they did it back when they fused the attack and defense roles together given how much more dps heroes there were, and and good chunk of people would've been outraged by this, just look at doomfist lmao, now imagine that, but with 10+ heroes 😭) or take 1 tank spot away from the team, effectively doubling the amount of games available. They took option 2 because it was the cheaper one, but reworking dps characters into either tanks or support would've been way better on paper
I think they could still make life easier on tank player, either by adding off-tank like dps heroes who can peel or reduce pressure on the main tank (closest hero we currently have to this is Mei) or go back to 6v6, but split back the dps role into 2: A dps role, and an hybrid role. Hybrid characters would either be tankier dps or supports (like mei or brig) who deal less damage or healing, supports who hit harder but heal less (Illari), or dps who don't deal that much damage, but can offer value through other means (like idk Sombra ? It doesn't fit current sombra, but old sombra 100% would've fit the role) and instead of 2-2-2 or 1-2-2 we get 1-1-2-2. Hybrid heroes would bring back some of the freedom of comp ow had before role queue, while kinda adressing the tank issue by giving them their off tanks back in some way
Big and probably controversial take, just get rid of the dps passive so more healing for tanks, lessen all damage by all by 5% do the same for healing and health so tank is better dps and support won’t dominate and it could be more balanced but that’s an all around overview and not specific characters
In conjunction with freedom from DPS passive, and reversion of health buffs, tanks should gain ult charge from getting healed.
That gives reward to tanks who are more incentivized to trade health for space/pressure--Rein/Winston versus Sig/Ball. Ult cost can be adjusted for health-glut self heal characters like Mauga and Hog.
Or simply remove the effect for self-heal.
So reward supports for being healbots?
@@va818 No, reward tanks for trading health without inting. Supports already get ult charge for healing.
i like the dps passive tbh, it punishes tanks who don't reset or play the map
dps passive is fine in 6v6, in 5v5 its dumb.
Disagree. It's great period. I like how dps was worse than support for a full year and everyone collectively thought it was fine but tank sucks for a month and people lose their minds. Tanks can die now healers have to use cool downs on others as opposed to using them solely on themselves and DPS finally applies pressure. It's wild anyone wants the old game back. @@bigups2729
Less than and more let DPS confirms kills easier
@@bigups2729 Based, its a mechanic that shoulda been in OW1 but in OW2 it just makes Tanking extra miserable
as someone who hit diamond on rein I hate this I cant ever swing my hammer when I die before I can do damage so im just a shield but there are better shields out there
I love that dps all have a parital ana nade on their auto attacks now. Very cool
If telling people to take cover as advice bothers them, they were just getting carried by bad design
I don’t play super often but whenever I do I play tank and it’s almost always fun (in quick play) it’s probably just the sbmm I guess
I think you identified something here, the dev's play at a bronze level because "bronze" is balanced and good, and everything else is suffering massively.
Actually that is exactly the idea.
Bronze level is best level, for casual fun
@@kingol4801 but why are we alienating the rest of the community just so one group can have an enjoyable experience?