Hi from Austria, I own an Ioniq just like yours, with close to 60.000 km on the clock. I also use EVNotify to monitor the car and battery. What I do to check degradation is to run the battery from 100% down to pretty low (
I’m not surprised of this result BUT through the years, I keep a little doubt about this SOH provided by the computer. If you really want to confirm the number, do a full discharge and then a full recharge on a smart charger (with knowing the % of loss). This will give you a good indication if the result from EV notify (or Torque Pro which to me is the same) is thrustable.
@@edsgarage001 my Zoë is also at 100% after 10 years and 120k km, according to the OBD2. Actually it's at 92% according to the measurement of Renault. Still pretty good for so many cycles of a very small (22kWh) battery, but don't always trust the OBD2 SoH reading, especially as it always says 100%.
you might expect at least 1% degradation per year with this type of battery pack even if it's not being used or abused, so a 2017 EV should have around 6% degradation by 2023 regardless of what the BMS reports. Most of that loss will not show up as a drop in range due to the buffer in the pack, which is around 2.5 kWh in the Ioniq 28. In contrast my Leaf 24 has lost around 0.4 KWh of capacity per year, which is around 2% degradation of usable capacity per year.
I agree with what you're saying, battery degradation is not as Dramatic as they make out to be, but 0% degradation after almost 100,000km is just OBVIOUSLY AN ERROR. IT'S PHYSICALLY INCORRECT AND IMPOSSIBLE
Thx for the comment. It's actually not in error though. But it is a bit sneaky. There's a small buffer built in, so that the initial few percentage points of degradation are actually hidden in this buffer. You never get access to the full battery, as Hyundai holds that 3% buffer hostage until that amount has degraded. So once my battery has degraded by 4%, then it'll actually tell me it's degraded by 1%. So absolutely worst case scenario, my battery could be down 2.99%. but even that wouldn't be any cause for concern.
I know a guy who has done 200.000 km and his Ioniq 28 is still at 100%, my own is at 80.000 km and also at 100%, both have been charged 99% on AC at home
Great video Ed. I hate the general statements also, very much depends on physical location and car batter design/configuration. I saw some vids in Edmonton and Quebec and the cold does really have a negative impact in those extreme conditions.
Hi! Great video. Thanks for busting those myths) I have a question though - is there any difference in terms of performance between 28 kwh 2017 and 2019 Ioniq models?
The problem on many EV batteries is serviceability. Great example is a person I know had a fiat electric still under warranty. The car still had normal range when it suddenly shut down and the battery threw errors. The dealership would only replace the entire pack but No packs were available, they didn’t even have any trained service personnel. My guess was a few bad cells at most, or even a lose connection. It’s insane that it could not be repaired when it was likely 99% functional and just needed a simple repair.
Hello, thanks for the great video, I have a 2019 Hyundai Ioniq PHEV with 135,000 thousand miles ( I’m in the U.S) purchased it new, so far it’s running great, still on the original brakes! Averaging about 80- 100 mpg, for my 100 mile round trip commute ( I get to charge for free while at work, then overnight at home) could I perform this test on my phev? Hoping to get at least 200,000 miles out of it!!🙏🏼😎
Yeah no... That's not a thing, sorry. I work at a Hyundai dealership. That's a silly conspiracy theory. There's plenty of EVs that have battery degradation well within warranty period. As a matter of fact, there's been batteries replaced under warranty as well, from Hyundai AND other brands. But I live in a pretty mild climate, so my battery is holding up beautifully.
Suspension is as good as new... Honestly the car hasn't had any issues other then the ones I've caused lol Check out my long term full review here: th-cam.com/video/Dq6jssfte1I/w-d-xo.html
I dove out to Abbotsford during the heat dome. I always thinks about that drive and how it it was and if that could have shaved a few Kms of range. It was sooo hot. 45 degrees. I am only at 55,000 km but I have usually only charged up to 80 percent. And yes it is a 28kwh unit, so not many people have done that. Would be good to see an end of life comparison. My math is based on ten years of life for purchase and anything after is great. I sure it will be fine for another 5 after that
@@edsgarage001 nope the same 28kwh unit air cooled. I think you missed that when reading to 80 percent max charging and assumed 38kwh. That why it would be good to see an end of life comparison 80 percent vs full charge. I am probably the only guy doing it.
My son owns an nissan eNV200 with 24kw battery, it's now at 136,000Km (85k miles) and the battery is around 85% of it's original capacity. Some will say this is bad but taking into account the cost savings in Diesel Vs Electricity, if he gave it away today for Zero money, he would still be around 4k USD better off than if he still had his diesel van (that spent most of its time in the garage with an engine fault). This is never considered in any anti EV post.
Exactly! And that's arguably not a even very good battery system (Nissan didn't use any active cooling on their batteries)... But still very very useful vehicle!
Hello, what would you recommend for a used EV for someone who do not know anything about them? Ionic or BMW i3 2017, Leaf 2018 or a Zoe 2019/2020 (or something else)? Somewhere around there are the choices for me because of my budget. I basically need a car that runs and preferably has as little problems as possible, as I suck at fixing cars. All the cars I counted up would have enough battery range for me.
Well you know what my first choice would be 😉. If you can find an Ioniq, then that would be your best choice for certain. Though I'm not familiar with the Zoe, as they don't sell them in Canada. The leaf should be your last choice though, as it doesn't have battery temperature management and is horribly inefficient compared to the Ioniq. The BMW i3 is.... Interesting? I can't knock it, because my main complaint is how it looks, but looks are subjective. But it's also quite small. I'd say, 1st, Ioniq 2nd, i3 3rd, Zoe 4th, leaf 2nd and 3rd may be interchangeable
@@edsgarage001 Thank you! May I also ask if there is any important changes between the Ionic electric year models before it came a bigger battery (2020 I think)? Not good at cars, so I am a bit confused at the moment.
Do you recommend that car for someone living in a very hot and sunny area who doesn't have the option to charge daily overnight? how much battery does it lose while idle and off from heat? thinking about buying a 22 model
Thanks for your video. Mine also shows 100% state of health (2017 Ioniq at 35,000km) and this is probably true as I still get between 180km and 270km range depending on conditions, speed etc which is the same as the reports when this car was new.
Thanks for video, I have a 2020 Ioniq here in central Sask. 50,000 kms. And I get 330 kms on a charge in spring, summer and fall. Winter I get about 280 kms The significance of this is the battery and car is two years old they sold it with a claim of 280 kms. So on fall summer and spring it exceeds their claim A second point I wish to make is that there was no problem with staying warm in winter if you wish to pay in decreased mileage lol. We had a few -38 degree days and I specifically drove it to test it
Watch out, it's fairly standard to hide part of the battery's true capacity and slowly eat as the battery degrades to make sure you keep the amount of range you paid for for around 5-10 years, then you'll notice your battery degrade faster. But of course this isn't always the case and it's still 10 years or so for most, then you'll start seeing degradation and you still have a while to go before it's realistically gotta be replaced.
This is totally accurate... But it doesn't bother me at all. More to the point I was trying to make in the video though, a battery doesn't need to be replaced just because it has degradation. What constitutes a bad battery? 20% loss, 30% ... 40%? I don't even think I'll see 20% in 15 years at this rate. Thank you for the comment!
@@edsgarage001 Totally agree, I doubt you'll see 20% in 15 years, and it doesn't bother me either. Just mentioning a trick automakers use in case somebody didn't know and was scrolling through the comments :) Good work by the way, keep it up!
@@undefined6947 yeah I appreciate that . Honestly the reason I didn't bother going into that detail, is because for many it just gets too complicated. For example, some of the negative commenters here lol
I can agree, since I have had numerous rides in the vehicle, Ed does drive it pretty roughly. :). (I'm sure my fingerprints are still on the side grab handle!)
Hi Ed, wonder f you could help me, I purchased a 2020 Ioniq recently and discovered it was registered to the previous owner so I went to the local dealer and they told me they could not help. What can I do?
Registered? Do you mean the insurance? Or the bluelink? If it's legally registered to another person, you should contact your insurance company immediately. If you're referring to bluelink, then the dealer should have helped, otherwise you'd want to contact Bluelink customer support. Where do you live?
Do you know if the reading 100% SoH actually means that the battery has not degraded at all, or if the 100%-reading relates to battery degradation not having gone below 80% (which is what is guaranteed)?
No, state of health is based on the total available kwh remaining vs original rated kWh. Which is 28kwh on the 17 ioniq. I've also confirmed it with the torque app.
@@edsgarage001 Thank you. I own a kona electric 2020 64kwh myself so I am interested in this issue. I've seen many videos of people testing battery degradation for konas, e-niros and ioniqs and they've all shown very positive results. I worried that it was all a bit too good to be true. But i am glad that seems to not be the case :-)
@@bjornohgren7066 From my understanding is that the battery is actually bigger than 28kwh in the Ioniq EV. The 28kwh is available for the user, then it has extra kwh since its not good to discharge the battery fully. So lets say the battery is really 32kwh, and it has degraded to 28kwh, it still means it shows 100% health, but in reality it has degraded 4 kwh (so in reality at 88%)
Great news. I bought my Ioniq 2020 two years ago. Just been driving 20 000 km and of course also have 100% SoH. I love the car and is looking forward to the 100 000 km SoH. No worry.
I'm interested in something like this (having an Elantra now, transition to this would be an easier sell than others for my wife) but know that one longer journey I may do, maybe once a month, with family is around 200-250 miles always going to need 1 full recharge around half way. What,s the typical time it takes to recharge at a fast charger.
SOH is different from battery degradation. It's more an indicator of battery cell drift. So your battery cells are well balanced. To test degradation do a slow charge from nearly 0% to 100% and look at how much kWh went into the battery.
The state-of-health (SoH) of a battery describes the difference between a battery being studied and a fresh battery and considers cell aging. It is defined as the ratio of the maximum battery charge to its rated capacity. The SOH info on EV notify is pulled directly from the BMS. It's calculated based on the last charge. I made sure that the battery was nearly depleted before the charge up leading to this test. The SOH is considered the standard indicator for overall EV battery health. I'm sure there's some degradation, but as of yet it's hidden within the 3% buffer that Hyundai's have.
@@edsgarage001 That's not correct. The SoH reading in the BMS has nothing to do with the amount of energy the battery can store. Where ever you have your definition from, that's not how its defined by Hyundai. You could have a battery that lost 20% of its capacity and still be at or very near 100% SoH. However, deterioration of SoH will automatically cause loss of range, because the battery can no longer be fully charged. Degradation means you loose range, but the battery can still be healthy. Bad SoH means your battery needs repair. Also degradation is not "hidden in the buffer". That's a total misconception and not how EV batteries work. Buffers are there to protect the battery and prevent degradation, not to hide it. The buffer degrades at the same rate as the rest of the battery. People seem to believe that the Buffers are somehow consumed first and only then would degradation become visible. While theoretically that could be done to some extent, that doesn't make any sense and the amont of degradation that could be hidden in such a way is far too small to be noticable. The buffer remains the same percetage of total capacity as the battery degrades. It's very difficult to measure degradation, but it's possible. However, if your EOBD software can read out the BMS estimate of total capacity, that would be a good starting point for a pretty accurate estimate.
Hi Ed, I totally agree, that these batterys are fine, however, 100% SOH after 5 hears seems rather odd, every battery has some form of degradation after 5 years. The SOH value of the BMS sure is a good indication, but if you want to have prove, an ah constant load test should be done.
I didn't mention it in the video, because I'm trying to overcome the bias and lies that go the other way... But yes, my battery no doubt has some degradation, however it's still within the original buffer that Hyundai puts in place. So while I may have, maybe 2 or 3% degradation (this generation of ioniq has an extremely impressive battery) it's still not enough to eat into the original provided 28kwh of usable battery. I'm actually not the only one, there's been many people on forums reporting 0 to only a few % loss even over 200,000 km driven. Really the point I wanted to make, was that people really need not be worried about how long their battery will last, because in MOST cases, it'll outlast the rest of the vehicle, despite perhaps having a bit of degradation.
The classic ioniq misinforms you with the soh number. It isn’t actually 100%, more likely in the 95% range. You can test this by fully charging the car, resetting average consumption and trip meters and then driving till the car dies. Then just multiply the consumption and distance numbers thus giving you the actual capacity. For example, if you can get out 27 kWh, that would mean 96,4% of remaining capacity.
The actually kWh of this battery is higher then 28. I'm sure there's a percent or two of degradation, but it's hidden in the buffer that Hyundai has programmed the system to hold onto.. I get that. However, the SOH reading in the EV notify app is the standard means of checking and comparing to other Ioniqs etc, and it's a value pulled directly from the BMS. It's accurate enough for my point..... My point being, that even after 100000km, I still don't have any "noticable" degradation. Sure there might be a few percent gone in the buffered off section. But EV haters would have you believe that a battery replacement is needed after 10 years, and that's bullshit.
@@edsgarage001 I understand that, maybe you missed my point. The actual capacity of the pack is 30,5 kWh of which 28 kWh is usable. But in the ioniq the soh% does not reflect the actual usable or total capacity, the indicator is highly optimistic for whatever reason. I also drive an ioniq and have tested this. My car also reports 100 soh% but the actual capacity left is 94%. Just don't trust the indicator, it lies to you :)
Nice I’m on the island here in bc and love my 2019 Ioniq electric . I’m only at 50,000km but yeah 5 years and zero degradation. I also charge to full and run it right down to limp mode a couple times and it just doesn’t care. Just keeps on working perfectly at $4 a tank! No repairs. Brakes still at 80% or better. EV’s just are the best.
Interesting video. I will do that test on my 2021 Hyundai Ioniq EV Limited as well. Ever since i updated my software to the newest my estimated range in the summer dropped by 25 miles of estimated range. Last summer in Upstate NY it was over 202 miles of range. This summer its 174 miles. I would expect this in the winter but not summer. The new Ioniq 6 is looking better and better.
@@edsgarage001 True, but his electric bill is $11.50 a month for three seasons. His house is all electric, and he has a heat pump. I think the fee he pays is just for the hookup to the mains.
It's still the same. There's probably "some" degradation, but Hyundai... Like other manufacturers... Has a bit of a buffer built in so that the first few percentage points of degradation are essentially hidden. There's an owner in Spain, with 260,000+ km on his, and his is reporting a degradation of only 3.9% But, regardless of that, my point was that these batteries are going to last much longer then the mythical 10 years. And probably even 20+ years in many markets.
@@edsgarage001 Ta. WOW!! I have a 2015 Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV. When I first got it, it would take 4hrs to fast charge, and 8 hours to slow charge. It now takes 2 hours to fast charge, and 3.75 hours to slow charge. It's only done 120,000kM, and I baby it.
@@kiqnkf yeah, I've heard nothing but bad things about the outlander battery. Sorry to hear that. The Nissan leaf suffers from pretty bad degradation too. Neither of those two vehicles has good battery temperature management, and heat is the real killer. The outlander's battery charge management apparently isn't great either.
The only accurate test is to fully charge and then measure how far you can drive the car. The computer systems are only estimating the usable charge using optimistic algorithms.
No I'm sorry, but that's not correct. Driving the car has way too many variables, and is an inaccurate measure. The EV notify app is looking at the Stated capacity of the battery when new, and comparing it to current capacity reported by the bms. If the bms had shut down any cells due to degradation (which it does, and probably already has) then the bms will report a lower capacity, and EV notify would show that by percentage. The reason mine still shows 100% is really because Hyundai built in a bit of a buffer. So in reality, there's probably 1 to 2 % degradation by now, but I'm not passed that buffer yet. EVnotify is a recognized application by the ioniq community for its accuracy.
So jealous! As a LEAF owner that 100% SoH would only last the first couple of months of a new vehicle. At roughly the same age and usage (6 years and 90,000km) my 2016 LEAF has roughly 70% SoH. But it's still a perfectly usable car for daily city driving, only needing a charge a couple of times a week, or less if I take advantage of free opportunistic charging. Can't complain though, this degradation is precisely what made a used LEAF so affordable as a first EV. Perfect for people wanting to break out of the fuel-burning habit on the cheap.
No need to be jealous! Nissan started the revolution! 😊 Be proud! But really, the point of the video was not that the battery doesn't degrade (I'm sure it has a tiny bit, but still within the buffer set by the mfr) But really, my point was that batteries will last longer, potentially much longer then ten years. Yours has 30% degradation... But it's still a very usable car!
@@werafonas Sorry missed your comment. Yes I did - it was 43% before I did the BMS fix! Actually 70% is 9 bars, I guess it's probably 1 bar less than some similar aged LEAFs, but not unusual. I still get 150km of city driving with it.
@@mahmoudalatwany Yes, but in temperatures like that.. You WILL experience noticable battery degradation. But you can limit how bad and how quickly it degrades, by charging it to no more than 80% I would consult with others who have owned EVs in your country to see what there's are like after 5 years or so. Don't talk to Nissan leaf owners, as those Cars don't have any sort of battery cooling, so they're all junk 😁
@@edsgarage001 Thank you for responding. Do you know if one will work for the New Ioniq 5's or Ioniq 6's? If it isn't compatible, do you know if any ODB2 bluetooth reader will work to show the battery degradation?
I see no reason why they wouldn't work. OBD2 is a standard, so pretty much any reader should work. As for battery health, the app needs to be able to see that. So EV notify or torque are two good options.
This is very useful to know. Such a common misconception that EV batteries have some limited fixed lifespan. It seems to be far more than people will use. Likely batteries will outlive the vehicle body in many cases. Recycling in 10-15 years could be very interesting.
@@edsgarage001 I almost bought a 2012 Chevy Volt with its original batteries before I bought the Kona Electric. Only thing the Volt needed was a new inverter for its onboard charger after 11 years on the road! I suspect we're into cars that will stay roadworthy for 15-20 years as a norm rather than an exception.
Absolutely. Unless you're daily DC charging in southern USA or other hot climates, I think anyone would be ok with 10% degradation when the wheels fall off the car.
I want to buy used Ioniq,so I am aware of some problem used car can have. What interest me,is did you have any very expensive or "impossible" to fix problem with the car,after 150000 km or more (I want to buy 100000 car,but have intension of using it 5 years at least)
Well, for the price, in order to know if it's a reasonable price... You'd need to know which trim package it is first. Then, has it had any major accidents, how are the tires and brakes. What's the maintenance history, what was it used for and by who. What condition is it in... Is it a private sale or a dealership. What are other vehicles like it selling for in the area. As I'm in Canada, the ioniq hybrid is going to be a bit different, with slightly different technology and features. So I wouldn't really be able to help you on the price. But those are the factors to consider.
people do forget that petrol car degrade over time as the parts get clogged up with carbon and tars from the fuel and so horse power drops and that it drops the range down so you can call this degradation The only thing comes is that a petrol car at some point will just give up the battery will just do less miles
Yes, there's a hidden buffer. The point I'm making in the video, is that if you were to Believe the EV haters, I should be looking at replacing the battery soon. So, considering I still had the same available kwh of capacity as new, then whatever the degradation, it was low enough to stay within the buffer. That vehicle actually now has 172000km on it, and only shows 1% loss of capacity.
@@edsgarage001 We had our first electric car in 1997 (Clio) which has a lot of problems then in 2004 a saxo which we sold in 2019, only 2 battery modules has been changed in this period. They were NiCd pack subject to memory effect. Lithium cells are kind an holly grail next to our saxo technology and even then.. we loved our saxo, quiet, economic, perfect for the city. We will now buy a used ioniq 38 and very happy with the idea. Thanks for your informative videos..!
I honestly think the SOH value is quite useless as a degradation indicator for the Ioniq. I use the method Bjørn Nyland uses, drive from 100% to ~3% on one (easy) trip and then calculate the remaining capacity by (distance travelled)*(consumption) / 0,97. I've done that for about 10 times the couple 4 months and my 2018 Ioniq with 60k km on the odometer has about 25kWh available. That would mean 11% degradation while the SOH value still says 100%. I also know my home charger has about 10% losses and if I charge back from 3% to 100% it puts 27 kWh in the car. That would also mean 27 kWh / 0,97 * 0,9 = 25 kWh for the fully charged battery.
At only 60,000km, you wouldn't have any noticable degradation. Your battery is 30.5kwh, with 28kwg useable, and as it degrades, that 2.5 buffer gets used. Considering you're in a mild climate without excessively hot summers I HIGHLY doubt you're only at 25kwh remaining.
@@edsgarage001 I honestly don’t think the buffer ‘gets used’, there’s no evidence for that… I still have the 5% top buffer and the 3% lower buffer. Degradation happens as the internal resistance slowly increases or one cell deteriorates faster than others, resulting in reaching the low cell voltages faster than other cells. But it would be nice for comparison: do you have any long trip data to compare? Mine last trip was 210,6km with a consumption of 11,3. I started with 98% and ended with 2%. That would mean 210,6 * 11,3 / 0,96 = 24.8 kwh of full capacity..
Avoid the leaf. No battery temperature management system, and an overall poorly designed vehicle. It has 12kwh more battery but only musters 40 more km then this old Ioniq🤷... Yet in the winter, loses so much range that it's actually worse then the ioniq. The 2020/21 ioniq has a 38kwh battery and can go 274km.... 34km farther then the leaf despite having a smaller battery. The ioniq also has a more intelligently designed cargo area and more passenger volume and a better infotainment system. Plus many other advantages. Leaf is not good.
@@edsgarage001 I live in Norway, possibly electric car country no. 1. In fact there are some Ioniq for sale. I have found a 2018 model, which has gone 15,000 km, price NOK 200,000. It will be about 20,000 USD. Not so crazy I think.
@@EspenJohan oh that's great! Yes i wish we had as many EVs available here. But Canada unfortunately just isn't a high priority for manufactures to get EVs to. The demand is now very high, thx to the gas prices going crazy.
@@ricardosobreiro6914 I live in the southwestern corner of the country 🙂. Temperature is quite mild here . But that was quite unusual for us. Normally we're around 25-30 throughout the summer, with the odd day getting into the 30's.
Surely the state of heath has nothing to do with degradation? A degraded battery will still charge to 100% but will hold less power and have less range but is still regarded as healthy.
That would be the state of charge. The battery management system will disable cells that degradate, meaning those cells will not be charged. Also those disabled cells will not be counted in the state of charge calculation. So a battery with a state of health of 95% will take in 5% less electricity, but the computer will still say 100% charged. (because the 95% still active cells are 100% charged) EDIT: I have oversimplified the above to the point of lying, but I don't feel like writing an essay.
As Henri pointed out, the state of health is specifically what percentage of battery is still functional vs original rated capacity. Now, it's entirely possible, and likely, that Hyundai built in a small buffer to account for degradation. But the point of the video is quite clear.... If these battery's only last ten years, then shouldn't there already be some indication of degradation? I'll do another video like this in another 5 years, and we'll see! 😊
@@HenriZwolsCells are mostly put in series (in Ioniq actually 96 in series and 2 parallel, so total 192 cells). The same current flows through all the cells. Cells cannot be "shut down" or the whole battery is shut down. Battery is pretty much as bad as the worst cell is. When first cell reaches maximum or minimum voltage, charging or discharging also has to stop. Bad cell reaches end voltage points faster than others. The whole battery capacity decreases enormously with just one bad cell though other cells might still be totally fine.
Thank you for this video. It's pretty clear that the truth about EV battery longevity and degradation is not a one size fits all. But it's also important to note there is a risk associated with some all or nothing batteries like the BZ4X or Solterra. Maybe other brands too where individual cells can't be replaced even though Toyota restricts the rate of charging to prolong the battery life. So hopefully that can prolong the life significantly beyond 10 years (Toyota promises 10% degradation in 10 years, but the fine print says 30% degradation in 10 years) which is great but just so people know the battery cost for a Solterra is US $45,000. However if the battery lasts for 30 years or longer with 50% degradation it may be worth it but once again, the devil is in the details.
That 45000 is not a realistic cost though. Lithium ion batteries are at their lowest price ever, only about $140 per kwh. Meaning the cells in a 60kwh battery should only cost a manufacturer about $8400. Now add in the cooling system, BMS and casing, and perhaps that'll double the "cost". Add in a profit margin and the battery STILL shouldn't be more than about $20,000 Tops. The problem is, manufacturers don't want to sell just batteries, they wanna sell cars. So battery prices are marked insanely high. That practice needs to be stopped. Thanks for the comment!
@@edsgarage001 Thanks for your very informative video and prompt response. I too was surprised to hear the battery cost was $45,000 but the dealer service department confirmed this. That being said, you are correct. Every car is different but on average the ballpark I've seen is the battery cost is 30-35% of the EV cost. And yes, Li ion battery costs have reduced quite a bit so the information was shocking to me, but i asked only last month. I did want to mention that I drove the Solterra as a loaner car and it was sublime to drive. The stability, torque, traction (has dual x mode for heavy snow/ mud), visibility was off the charts good. Unlike any SUV I've driven. Better than most cars too.
To be completely frank... I would avoid the soltera/bz4x. Toyota has no interest in building EV's so they outsourced to Subaru, a company that also isn't really interested in building EV's, and it shows. The vehicle is pretty much the lowest rated in its class. Very slow DC charging, and pretty abysmal efficiency. Do yourself a favor and test drive an ioniq 5 or 6, learn about their benefits, especially the 800 volt battery system, which makes a massive difference. But more then that: -The infotainment system is significantly better in the ioniqs, -they have way more horsepower and torque -better warranty -way more back seat space -better cargo volume in the ioniq 5 -more features Etc etc.... Plus the soltera and bz4x wheels were literally falling off. I don't have a problem with Toyota and Subaru in general, as a matter of fact, I've reviewed other models of theirs favorably. But the EV's are just not great. 😕
@@edsgarage001 Thanks for the information. appreciate it and will definitely check them out. i was planning to look at the ioniq's and upcoming kia EV sedan.
I am new owner of kona.if I am correct if you have more fast charging your battery degradation is more. That's my dealer told me.true or false I don't know for sure
@@edsgarage001 maybe I am 1 week owner of ev so I am learning now. The good thing is that I have 3phase electricity and I ordered wallbox because was very slow the car charger that they gave me.thank you for your answer
I just read on a forum post, about a guy in Spain with over 260,000km... With less than 4% degradation!! 😳 That's awesome! And that's even in a warmer climate! 10 years my ass!
I don't think so... It depends on where you live.. people in cooler climates aren't going to get that much degradation. I would have seen at least a few percentage of loss by now if that were the case.
Haha... No, that's not what I meant. I'm hard on it, in that I always accelerate hard, take corners way to quick etc. I drive it hard. But going 130 isn't conducive to good battery range either.
@ 8:35 "there you go, we've got 100% state of health..." *...doesn't mean what you seem to think it means.* (and it doesn't matter *which app* you use to display that info, because any of them are reporting from the same data source. I kept expecting you to do a load test, - or at least road test - that matched the one you did when it was new... but no. You spent nearly 11 minutes without actually discovering or revealing anything pertinent to the actual capacity remaining in the traction battery in your Ioniq.
The original *usable* capacity of this vehicle is 28kwh. The *actual* capacity was 30.5kwh. This app pulls data from the BMS about the current usable capacity. If that number is equal to, or higher then the original 28kwh, then the state of health will read at 100% Even if the actual capacity is 30.5kwh (actual brand new capacity). Do I have some degradation?, YES. Is it enough that my "usable" capacity is under 28kwh? NO. I have confirmed my findings with a EV trained shop tech at the Hyundai dealership that I work at. So my degradation is less then 8%... But to the layman, it's basically zero, thanks to the built in buffer. With all the BS floating around the industry saying batteries will need replacing after 10 years. I wanted this video to help deter some of that negativity and fear. Call it whatever you want, but my vehicle still gets its original expected range.
@@edsgarage001 It would have been more helpful to viewers if you had explained that specifically, which would have taken less than one minute even if you read that entire reply aloud. re: "actual brand new capacity" Well, *actual* usable capacity depends on the load. Without a comparison of a load test done now to an identical load test done when the car was new, all you know is what the manufacturer's specs are. You car is only about five years old, and you don't park it out in the Arizona sun.
The point of this video, is to combat the myths spread around in the general public about battery longevity. I didn't want there to be ANY question, because right now the misinformation is spread heavily in the wrong direction. The fact is, MOST EV batteries will outlive the vehicles that they're used in. Obviously not all... But most. The EV haters basically say all batteries will fail and that they'll all need to be replaced. So let's fight fire with fire, a little truth stretching won't hurt. www.geotab.com/blog/ev-battery-health/
Look at you showboating with your sunroof 😂 you don’t see many on ioniqs and when buying my facelift model I never saw one for sale in the whole of Britain
Actually, on the ioniq, EV notify specifically looks at current usable capacity and compares it to original stated capacity of the battery. So, yes, it is. I also confirmed this finding with Torque Pro Plus, while my vehicle is still at 100% ... There are others with ioniqs who live in warmer climates that have shown some very minor degradation, using the same app
I assume you charged your car around 600 times. Up to 300 more cycles and battery will show up significant degradation symptoms. That's the battery nature, no matter how well you maintain it. Secondly fast charging is killing the battery (dendrites), but you stated that you charge your car mainly at home (most of us has no such luxury). I own electric bicycle, I was cycling for 375 days in any conditions (snow, heavy rain, subzero temperatures) between -8C to 36C. I charged my battery around 500 times and it's already faulty (I have no tools to fetch details regarding battery). I am not able to fully charge the battery. The are not so many battery cells so obviously it aged quicker. The same will happen to EV battery it's just a matter of time. I've seen many 7 years old EVs with degraded battery. Last thing, my (combustion) car has 700km range so I can drive to the airport to pick up my family and get back quickly (that's ~200km), airport charges 5GBP/1h (long term) and 5GBP for pickup (10min). I can dress up and get there in no time without worrying about the battery charge status.
First, Don't compare a bike battery to a car. For one thing, your bike battery isn't cooled. Second, degradation is somewhat linear... It's not going to suddenly and significantly degrade in another 300 cycles. That's just silly. Third, there's an ioniq owner in Spain who's put over 260,000 km on his, and he's only got 3.9% degradation. Would you call that significant? I certainly wouldn't. Feel free to Google that, it's on an ioniq forum.
As for an airport run, I can that too... And considering my battery is fully charged every morning, I never have to worry about it. But my 200km trip cost me $4. How much was your trip? 😅
@@edsgarage001 It costed me 15gbp including airport charge for pickup and my car costed me 26k. I'd need to drive for 12 years to pay back the difference and nobody said electricity would be in the same price. It's already raised up 2x this year (standing charge and 1kWh rate).
@@edsgarage001 The technology is exactly the same (lit-ion cells). Why would my battery need to be cooled down? I don't charge it with tens of amps, it's always stored indoors. You're kind of ignorant in terms of battery knowledge and its limitations.
This guy did not do his research on battery degradation, or use commonly available knowledge ‘all batteries degrade’ The Ioniq reports 28kw.hr capacity, the actual capacity is 31kw.hr when new and degrades _slowly_ as do all batteries The obd apps collecting detailed battery health show this
Lol, funny that you think I didn't do my research. You didn't watch the entire video either. I'm fully aware that all batteries degrade, but this battery hadn't degraded enough to show any capacity loss aside from what was within the hidden buffer. So effectively hadn't lost any range from original. But EV haters would have you believe that this battery would definitely need to be replaced in three years.... Which is hogwash. So excuse me for a bit of exaggeration in my video to attempt to swing the pendulum the other way. I've been an EV enthusiast since the original Saturn EV 1 came out in the early 90's. The Ioniq EV's from 2017 to 2019 degrade EXTREMELY slowly compared to most other models. Especially in cooler climates.
If you don't understand how the app gathers it's info, then don't make silly assumptive comments. The BMS in the battery pack reports the current usable capacity. EV notify is able to access that data.
@@edsgarage001 if you don't understand, that manufacturer's hardware gives whatever data manufacturer wants you to see.... like there was no dieselgate....
That's not a fact at all. That's an estimate based on unreliable worst case data from older technology. Because VW is so believable right? 😂. Just because "some" batteries have only lasted that long, doesn't mean they all do.
@@edsgarage001 Right. There's a guy in the UK that buys and sells used EVs. He had a 10 year old Renault Zoe in with 100,000 MILES on the clock. SOH was 98%. Pretty sure the batteries nowadays are going to outlast the cars.
But of course a 10 to 15 year old EV battery pack can readily be refurbished. It does not necessarily need to be fully replaced. Here on TH-cam, the James & Kate channel showed a UK owned 10 year old Nissan Leaf getting a battery pack refurb. The work took 4 hours, and cost James £500 (around $600)..... You could reasonably expect to pay for at least some mechanical repairs or replacements on a 10 to 15 year old ICE car......
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Hi from Austria,
I own an Ioniq just like yours, with close to 60.000 km on the clock. I also use EVNotify to monitor the car and battery.
What I do to check degradation is to run the battery from 100% down to pretty low (
Thank you for the comprehensive comment!
I’m not surprised of this result BUT through the years, I keep a little doubt about this SOH provided by the computer. If you really want to confirm the number, do a full discharge and then a full recharge on a smart charger (with knowing the % of loss). This will give you a good indication if the result from EV notify (or Torque Pro which to me is the same) is thrustable.
I checked it with torque pro as well... Showed the exact same thing
@@edsgarage001 my Zoë is also at 100% after 10 years and 120k km, according to the OBD2. Actually it's at 92% according to the measurement of Renault. Still pretty good for so many cycles of a very small (22kWh) battery, but don't always trust the OBD2 SoH reading, especially as it always says 100%.
you might expect at least 1% degradation per year with this type of battery pack even if it's not being used or abused, so a 2017 EV should have around 6% degradation by 2023 regardless of what the BMS reports. Most of that loss will not show up as a drop in range due to the buffer in the pack, which is around 2.5 kWh in the Ioniq 28. In contrast my Leaf 24 has lost around 0.4 KWh of capacity per year, which is around 2% degradation of usable capacity per year.
I agree with what you're saying, battery degradation is not as Dramatic as they make out to be, but 0% degradation after almost 100,000km is just OBVIOUSLY AN ERROR. IT'S PHYSICALLY INCORRECT AND IMPOSSIBLE
Thx for the comment. It's actually not in error though. But it is a bit sneaky. There's a small buffer built in, so that the initial few percentage points of degradation are actually hidden in this buffer.
You never get access to the full battery, as Hyundai holds that 3% buffer hostage until that amount has degraded.
So once my battery has degraded by 4%, then it'll actually tell me it's degraded by 1%.
So absolutely worst case scenario, my battery could be down 2.99%. but even that wouldn't be any cause for concern.
These long term reviews are key to change the minds of our community
Thx for the comment!
Here's the full review:
th-cam.com/video/Dq6jssfte1I/w-d-xo.html
I know a guy who has done 200.000 km and his Ioniq 28 is still at 100%, my own is at 80.000 km and also at 100%, both have been charged 99% on AC at home
Awesome
Great video Ed. I hate the general statements also, very much depends on physical location and car batter design/configuration. I saw some vids in Edmonton and Quebec and the cold does really have a negative impact in those extreme conditions.
Yeah, there's a tonne of variables.
Thx for the comment!
Hi! Great video. Thanks for busting those myths)
I have a question though - is there any difference in terms of performance between 28 kwh 2017 and 2019 Ioniq models?
Thanks!
Nope, they're basically the same vehicle with only get slight changes in features
The problem on many EV batteries is serviceability. Great example is a person I know had a fiat electric still under warranty. The car still had normal range when it suddenly shut down and the battery threw errors. The dealership would only replace the entire pack but No packs were available, they didn’t even have any trained service personnel. My guess was a few bad cells at most, or even a lose connection. It’s insane that it could not be repaired when it was likely 99% functional and just needed a simple repair.
Thankfully, EV battery issues aren't that common. But yes serviceability currently is an issue. Though with time, that too will improve.
Hello, thanks for the great video, I have a 2019 Hyundai Ioniq PHEV with 135,000 thousand miles ( I’m in the U.S) purchased it new, so far it’s running great, still on the original brakes! Averaging about 80- 100 mpg, for my 100 mile round trip commute ( I get to charge for free while at work, then overnight at home) could I perform this test on my phev? Hoping to get at least 200,000 miles out of it!!🙏🏼😎
Yeah as far as I know, it should work the same way.
Thx for the comment!
Expect the SOH to start declining fast after the warranty. Yes, the car "knows" when the warranty expires. What do you think they program to the car?
Yeah no... That's not a thing, sorry.
I work at a Hyundai dealership. That's a silly conspiracy theory.
There's plenty of EVs that have battery degradation well within warranty period. As a matter of fact, there's been batteries replaced under warranty as well, from Hyundai AND other brands. But I live in a pretty mild climate, so my battery is holding up beautifully.
How has the suspension held up? I know it's not battery related but I'm curious what other parts have degraded over this time.
Suspension is as good as new... Honestly the car hasn't had any issues other then the ones I've caused lol
Check out my long term full review here:
th-cam.com/video/Dq6jssfte1I/w-d-xo.html
I dove out to Abbotsford during the heat dome. I always thinks about that drive and how it it was and if that could have shaved a few Kms of range. It was sooo hot. 45 degrees. I am only at 55,000 km but I have usually only charged up to 80 percent. And yes it is a 28kwh unit, so not many people have done that. Would be good to see an end of life comparison. My math is based on ten years of life for purchase and anything after is great. I sure it will be fine for another 5 after that
With yours, you've got a liquid cooled battery. It should do even better then mine.
@@edsgarage001 nope the same 28kwh unit air cooled. I think you missed that when reading to 80 percent max charging and assumed 38kwh. That why it would be good to see an end of life comparison 80 percent vs full charge. I am probably the only guy doing it.
@@elvisd8832 oh geeze... Yeah, I read that wrong lol
My son owns an nissan eNV200 with 24kw battery, it's now at 136,000Km (85k miles) and the battery is around 85% of it's original capacity. Some will say this is bad but taking into account the cost savings in Diesel Vs Electricity, if he gave it away today for Zero money, he would still be around 4k USD better off than if he still had his diesel van (that spent most of its time in the garage with an engine fault). This is never considered in any anti EV post.
Exactly!
And that's arguably not a even very good battery system (Nissan didn't use any active cooling on their batteries)... But still very very useful vehicle!
Hello, what would you recommend for a used EV for someone who do not know anything about them? Ionic or BMW i3 2017, Leaf 2018 or a Zoe 2019/2020 (or something else)? Somewhere around there are the choices for me because of my budget. I basically need a car that runs and preferably has as little problems as possible, as I suck at fixing cars. All the cars I counted up would have enough battery range for me.
Well you know what my first choice would be 😉.
If you can find an Ioniq, then that would be your best choice for certain. Though I'm not familiar with the Zoe, as they don't sell them in Canada.
The leaf should be your last choice though, as it doesn't have battery temperature management and is horribly inefficient compared to the Ioniq.
The BMW i3 is.... Interesting? I can't knock it, because my main complaint is how it looks, but looks are subjective. But it's also quite small.
I'd say,
1st, Ioniq
2nd, i3
3rd, Zoe
4th, leaf
2nd and 3rd may be interchangeable
@@edsgarage001 Thank you! May I also ask if there is any important changes between the Ionic electric year models before it came a bigger battery (2020 I think)? Not good at cars, so I am a bit confused at the moment.
Do you recommend that car for someone living in a very hot and sunny area who doesn't have the option to charge daily overnight? how much battery does it lose while idle and off from heat? thinking about buying a 22 model
Yeah you'll be fine.
The 22 has better range, plus liquid cooling for the battery
Thanks for your video. Mine also shows 100% state of health (2017 Ioniq at 35,000km) and this is probably true as I still get between 180km and 270km range depending on conditions, speed etc which is the same as the reports when this car was new.
Thx for the comment!
You have range 270km?
In the summer, it's not unusual to see that high of range
@@bogdanmilea6883 Yes, in perfect temperature and no wind and not driving above 100km/h.
Please keep us updated if you keep the car long term!
Oh I plan to 😊
Thanks for video, I have a 2020 Ioniq here in central Sask. 50,000 kms. And I get 330 kms on a charge in spring, summer and fall. Winter I get about 280 kms The significance of this is the battery and car is two years old they sold it with a claim of 280 kms. So on fall summer and spring it exceeds their claim
A second point I wish to make is that there was no problem with staying warm in winter if you wish to pay in decreased mileage lol.
We had a few -38 degree days and I specifically drove it to test it
Right on!
Watch out, it's fairly standard to hide part of the battery's true capacity and slowly eat as the battery degrades to make sure you keep the amount of range you paid for for around 5-10 years, then you'll notice your battery degrade faster.
But of course this isn't always the case and it's still 10 years or so for most, then you'll start seeing degradation and you still have a while to go before it's realistically gotta be replaced.
This is totally accurate... But it doesn't bother me at all.
More to the point I was trying to make in the video though, a battery doesn't need to be replaced just because it has degradation.
What constitutes a bad battery? 20% loss, 30% ... 40%? I don't even think I'll see 20% in 15 years at this rate.
Thank you for the comment!
@@edsgarage001 Totally agree, I doubt you'll see 20% in 15 years, and it doesn't bother me either. Just mentioning a trick automakers use in case somebody didn't know and was scrolling through the comments :)
Good work by the way, keep it up!
@@undefined6947 yeah I appreciate that .
Honestly the reason I didn't bother going into that detail, is because for many it just gets too complicated. For example, some of the negative commenters here lol
@@edsgarage001 haha yeah the internet can be a ruthless place!
@@undefined6947 That's an interesting point. Thank you for bringing that up!
I can agree, since I have had numerous rides in the vehicle, Ed does drive it pretty roughly. :).
(I'm sure my fingerprints are still on the side grab handle!)
😂😂😂
Hi Ed, wonder f you could help me, I purchased a 2020 Ioniq recently and discovered it was registered to the previous owner so I went to the local dealer and they told me they could not help. What can I do?
Registered? Do you mean the insurance? Or the bluelink?
If it's legally registered to another person, you should contact your insurance company immediately.
If you're referring to bluelink, then the dealer should have helped, otherwise you'd want to contact Bluelink customer support.
Where do you live?
Ah I see you're in BC.
Give me a call at Bannister Hyundai Chilliwack on Saturday, and I'll help you out.
Do you know if the reading 100% SoH actually means that the battery has not degraded at all, or if the 100%-reading relates to battery degradation not having gone below 80% (which is what is guaranteed)?
No, state of health is based on the total available kwh remaining vs original rated kWh. Which is 28kwh on the 17 ioniq.
I've also confirmed it with the torque app.
@@edsgarage001 Thank you. I own a kona electric 2020 64kwh myself so I am interested in this issue. I've seen many videos of people testing battery degradation for konas, e-niros and ioniqs and they've all shown very positive results. I worried that it was all a bit too good to be true. But i am glad that seems to not be the case :-)
@@bjornohgren7066 Yeah there's a lot of misinformation out there ..
Glad I could help!
@@bjornohgren7066 From my understanding is that the battery is actually bigger than 28kwh in the Ioniq EV. The 28kwh is available for the user, then it has extra kwh since its not good to discharge the battery fully. So lets say the battery is really 32kwh, and it has degraded to 28kwh, it still means it shows 100% health, but in reality it has degraded 4 kwh (so in reality at 88%)
@@AndrewTSq the 'real' pack size of the 'classic' Ioniq 28 is 30.5kWh.
Great news. I bought my Ioniq 2020 two years ago. Just been driving 20 000 km and of course also have 100% SoH. I love the car and is looking forward to the 100 000 km SoH. No worry.
Thx for the comment!
I'm interested in something like this (having an Elantra now, transition to this would be an easier sell than others for my wife) but know that one longer journey I may do, maybe once a month, with family is around 200-250 miles always going to need 1 full recharge around half way. What,s the typical time it takes to recharge at a fast charger.
@@chrismartin2663 about half hour. It's not too bad
SOH is different from battery degradation. It's more an indicator of battery cell drift. So your battery cells are well balanced. To test degradation do a slow charge from nearly 0% to 100% and look at how much kWh went into the battery.
The state-of-health (SoH) of a battery describes the difference between a battery being studied and a fresh battery and considers cell aging.
It is defined as the ratio of the maximum battery charge to its rated capacity.
The SOH info on EV notify is pulled directly from the BMS. It's calculated based on the last charge. I made sure that the battery was nearly depleted before the charge up leading to this test.
The SOH is considered the standard indicator for overall EV battery health.
I'm sure there's some degradation, but as of yet it's hidden within the 3% buffer that Hyundai's have.
@@edsgarage001 That's not correct. The SoH reading in the BMS has nothing to do with the amount of energy the battery can store. Where ever you have your definition from, that's not how its defined by Hyundai. You could have a battery that lost 20% of its capacity and still be at or very near 100% SoH. However, deterioration of SoH will automatically cause loss of range, because the battery can no longer be fully charged. Degradation means you loose range, but the battery can still be healthy. Bad SoH means your battery needs repair.
Also degradation is not "hidden in the buffer". That's a total misconception and not how EV batteries work. Buffers are there to protect the battery and prevent degradation, not to hide it. The buffer degrades at the same rate as the rest of the battery. People seem to believe that the Buffers are somehow consumed first and only then would degradation become visible. While theoretically that could be done to some extent, that doesn't make any sense and the amont of degradation that could be hidden in such a way is far too small to be noticable. The buffer remains the same percetage of total capacity as the battery degrades.
It's very difficult to measure degradation, but it's possible. However, if your EOBD software can read out the BMS estimate of total capacity, that would be a good starting point for a pretty accurate estimate.
Hi Ed, I totally agree, that these batterys are fine, however, 100% SOH after 5 hears seems rather odd, every battery has some form of degradation after 5 years. The SOH value of the BMS sure is a good indication, but if you want to have prove, an ah constant load test should be done.
I didn't mention it in the video, because I'm trying to overcome the bias and lies that go the other way... But yes, my battery no doubt has some degradation, however it's still within the original buffer that Hyundai puts in place.
So while I may have, maybe 2 or 3% degradation (this generation of ioniq has an extremely impressive battery) it's still not enough to eat into the original provided 28kwh of usable battery.
I'm actually not the only one, there's been many people on forums reporting 0 to only a few % loss even over 200,000 km driven.
Really the point I wanted to make, was that people really need not be worried about how long their battery will last, because in MOST cases, it'll outlast the rest of the vehicle, despite perhaps having a bit of degradation.
The classic ioniq misinforms you with the soh number. It isn’t actually 100%, more likely in the 95% range. You can test this by fully charging the car, resetting average consumption and trip meters and then driving till the car dies. Then just multiply the consumption and distance numbers thus giving you the actual capacity. For example, if you can get out 27 kWh, that would mean 96,4% of remaining capacity.
The actually kWh of this battery is higher then 28.
I'm sure there's a percent or two of degradation, but it's hidden in the buffer that Hyundai has programmed the system to hold onto..
I get that.
However, the SOH reading in the EV notify app is the standard means of checking and comparing to other Ioniqs etc, and it's a value pulled directly from the BMS. It's accurate enough for my point..... My point being, that even after 100000km, I still don't have any "noticable" degradation. Sure there might be a few percent gone in the buffered off section. But EV haters would have you believe that a battery replacement is needed after 10 years, and that's bullshit.
@@edsgarage001 I understand that, maybe you missed my point. The actual capacity of the pack is 30,5 kWh of which 28 kWh is usable. But in the ioniq the soh% does not reflect the actual usable or total capacity, the indicator is highly optimistic for whatever reason. I also drive an ioniq and have tested this. My car also reports 100 soh% but the actual capacity left is 94%. Just don't trust the indicator, it lies to you :)
Nice I’m on the island here in bc and love my 2019 Ioniq electric . I’m only at 50,000km but yeah 5 years and zero degradation. I also charge to full and run it right down to limp mode a couple times and it just doesn’t care. Just keeps on working perfectly at $4 a tank! No repairs. Brakes still at 80% or better. EV’s just are the best.
They sure are!
Thanks for the comment!
Interesting video. I will do that test on my 2021 Hyundai Ioniq EV Limited as well. Ever since i updated my software to the newest my estimated range in the summer dropped by 25 miles of estimated range. Last summer in Upstate NY it was over 202 miles of range. This summer its 174 miles. I would expect this in the winter but not summer. The new Ioniq 6 is looking better and better.
I'm LOVING my new ioniq 6
From Vancouver Island here. My next door neighbour has the same car and he loves it. He also has 20 solar panels that keep it charged. Win win.
Cool!
Yeah I'd love to add solar to my home. Kinda pricey though, and our hydro here in BC is just so cheap lol
@@edsgarage001 True, but his electric bill is $11.50 a month for three seasons. His house is all electric, and he has a heat pump. I think the fee he pays is just for the hookup to the mains.
@@dlittlester yeah... It's definitely something I'll do in the future.
No way. How long did it take to fully slow charge, when you first purchased it, vs. How long does it take to slow charge now?
It's still the same.
There's probably "some" degradation, but Hyundai... Like other manufacturers... Has a bit of a buffer built in so that the first few percentage points of degradation are essentially hidden.
There's an owner in Spain, with 260,000+ km on his, and his is reporting a degradation of only 3.9%
But, regardless of that, my point was that these batteries are going to last much longer then the mythical 10 years. And probably even 20+ years in many markets.
@@edsgarage001 Ta. WOW!! I have a 2015 Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV. When I first got it, it would take 4hrs to fast charge, and 8 hours to slow charge. It now takes 2 hours to fast charge, and 3.75 hours to slow charge. It's only done 120,000kM, and I baby it.
@@kiqnkf yeah, I've heard nothing but bad things about the outlander battery. Sorry to hear that. The Nissan leaf suffers from pretty bad degradation too.
Neither of those two vehicles has good battery temperature management, and heat is the real killer.
The outlander's battery charge management apparently isn't great either.
@@kiqnkf here's a great video on outlander's degradation issues:
th-cam.com/video/BH-Z1Fm9KZE/w-d-xo.html
@@edsgarage001 Thanks Ed, I end up going down a rabbit hole on these videos ;)
The only accurate test is to fully charge and then measure how far you can drive the car. The computer systems are only estimating the usable charge using optimistic algorithms.
No I'm sorry, but that's not correct.
Driving the car has way too many variables, and is an inaccurate measure.
The EV notify app is looking at the Stated capacity of the battery when new, and comparing it to current capacity reported by the bms.
If the bms had shut down any cells due to degradation (which it does, and probably already has) then the bms will report a lower capacity, and EV notify would show that by percentage.
The reason mine still shows 100% is really because Hyundai built in a bit of a buffer. So in reality, there's probably 1 to 2 % degradation by now, but I'm not passed that buffer yet.
EVnotify is a recognized application by the ioniq community for its accuracy.
So jealous! As a LEAF owner that 100% SoH would only last the first couple of months of a new vehicle. At roughly the same age and usage (6 years and 90,000km) my 2016 LEAF has roughly 70% SoH. But it's still a perfectly usable car for daily city driving, only needing a charge a couple of times a week, or less if I take advantage of free opportunistic charging.
Can't complain though, this degradation is precisely what made a used LEAF so affordable as a first EV. Perfect for people wanting to break out of the fuel-burning habit on the cheap.
Same where. I own a 2017 Leaf with 170.000kms, whith 70%SOH, the rest still all perfect and still very usable.
No need to be jealous! Nissan started the revolution! 😊 Be proud!
But really, the point of the video was not that the battery doesn't degrade (I'm sure it has a tiny bit, but still within the buffer set by the mfr)
But really, my point was that batteries will last longer, potentially much longer then ten years.
Yours has 30% degradation... But it's still a very usable car!
Have you done BMS update to your leaf? 90 000km seems to low for that soh.
@@werafonas Sorry missed your comment. Yes I did - it was 43% before I did the BMS fix! Actually 70% is 9 bars, I guess it's probably 1 bar less than some similar aged LEAFs, but not unusual. I still get 150km of city driving with it.
greetings from Egypt 🇪🇬❤️🇨🇦
Hello!
iam looking for electric cars do you recommend it in 45:48 c°
@@mahmoudalatwany
Yes, but in temperatures like that.. You WILL experience noticable battery degradation.
But you can limit how bad and how quickly it degrades, by charging it to no more than 80%
I would consult with others who have owned EVs in your country to see what there's are like after 5 years or so.
Don't talk to Nissan leaf owners, as those Cars don't have any sort of battery cooling, so they're all junk 😁
Which model VeePeak reader did you use?
The old blue one compatible with Android... I can't link it in TH-cam. But it's one that I've owned for about 8 years
@@edsgarage001 Thank you for responding. Do you know if one will work for the New Ioniq 5's or Ioniq 6's? If it isn't compatible, do you know if any ODB2 bluetooth reader will work to show the battery degradation?
I see no reason why they wouldn't work. OBD2 is a standard, so pretty much any reader should work.
As for battery health, the app needs to be able to see that. So EV notify or torque are two good options.
This is very useful to know. Such a common misconception that EV batteries have some limited fixed lifespan. It seems to be far more than people will use. Likely batteries will outlive the vehicle body in many cases. Recycling in 10-15 years could be very interesting.
You'd be surprised how few batteries have actually been replaced vs the amount of EVs still on the road...
@@edsgarage001 I almost bought a 2012 Chevy Volt with its original batteries before I bought the Kona Electric. Only thing the Volt needed was a new inverter for its onboard charger after 11 years on the road! I suspect we're into cars that will stay roadworthy for 15-20 years as a norm rather than an exception.
Absolutely.
Unless you're daily DC charging in southern USA or other hot climates, I think anyone would be ok with 10% degradation when the wheels fall off the car.
I want to buy used Ioniq,so I am aware of some problem used car can have. What interest me,is did you have any very expensive or "impossible" to fix problem with the car,after 150000 km or more (I want to buy 100000 car,but have intension of using it 5 years at least)
These cars are extremely reliable. I still talk to the owner of my old car and he's now got about 160000km on it with zero problems.
Is it worth by a 2018 ioniq hybrid which has been driven for 50,000 miles already for around GBP 15000?
There's a lot of variables... I couldn't answer that question
@@edsgarage001 what variables should I consider and look out for? Any advice would be appreciated.
Well, for the price, in order to know if it's a reasonable price... You'd need to know which trim package it is first.
Then, has it had any major accidents, how are the tires and brakes. What's the maintenance history, what was it used for and by who. What condition is it in... Is it a private sale or a dealership. What are other vehicles like it selling for in the area.
As I'm in Canada, the ioniq hybrid is going to be a bit different, with slightly different technology and features. So I wouldn't really be able to help you on the price. But those are the factors to consider.
people do forget that petrol car degrade over time as the parts get clogged up with carbon and tars from the fuel
and so horse power drops and that it drops the range down so you can call this degradation
The only thing comes is that a petrol car at some point will just give up the battery will just do less miles
Not to mention the money spent maintaining gas cars
Good day. Write the name of the car diagnostic device. thank you
I've added the info to the description
6:28
It will show 100% for a long time cause real capacity is not shown capacity, it's bigger, imagine it as a spare capacity.
Yes, there's a hidden buffer.
The point I'm making in the video, is that if you were to Believe the EV haters, I should be looking at replacing the battery soon.
So, considering I still had the same available kwh of capacity as new, then whatever the degradation, it was low enough to stay within the buffer. That vehicle actually now has 172000km on it, and only shows 1% loss of capacity.
@@edsgarage001 We had our first electric car in 1997 (Clio) which has a lot of problems then in 2004 a saxo which we sold in 2019, only 2 battery modules has been changed in this period. They were NiCd pack subject to memory effect. Lithium cells are kind an holly grail next to our saxo technology and even then.. we loved our saxo, quiet, economic, perfect for the city.
We will now buy a used ioniq 38 and very happy with the idea.
Thanks for your informative videos..!
Awesome!
I honestly think the SOH value is quite useless as a degradation indicator for the Ioniq. I use the method Bjørn Nyland uses, drive from 100% to ~3% on one (easy) trip and then calculate the remaining capacity by (distance travelled)*(consumption) / 0,97. I've done that for about 10 times the couple 4 months and my 2018 Ioniq with 60k km on the odometer has about 25kWh available. That would mean 11% degradation while the SOH value still says 100%. I also know my home charger has about 10% losses and if I charge back from 3% to 100% it puts 27 kWh in the car. That would also mean 27 kWh / 0,97 * 0,9 = 25 kWh for the fully charged battery.
Where do you live?
@@edsgarage001 in The Netherlands
At only 60,000km, you wouldn't have any noticable degradation. Your battery is 30.5kwh, with 28kwg useable, and as it degrades, that 2.5 buffer gets used.
Considering you're in a mild climate without excessively hot summers I HIGHLY doubt you're only at 25kwh remaining.
@@edsgarage001 I honestly don’t think the buffer ‘gets used’, there’s no evidence for that… I still have the 5% top buffer and the 3% lower buffer. Degradation happens as the internal resistance slowly increases or one cell deteriorates faster than others, resulting in reaching the low cell voltages faster than other cells.
But it would be nice for comparison: do you have any long trip data to compare? Mine last trip was 210,6km with a consumption of 11,3. I started with 98% and ended with 2%. That would mean 210,6 * 11,3 / 0,96 = 24.8 kwh of full capacity..
@@dlamboo84
I'll do a trip video at some point.
We are in the prosess of buying the Ioniq. And all tests I`ve seen it looks like a great car. Also looking at the Nissan leaf 40kw.
Avoid the leaf. No battery temperature management system, and an overall poorly designed vehicle.
It has 12kwh more battery but only musters 40 more km then this old Ioniq🤷... Yet in the winter, loses so much range that it's actually worse then the ioniq.
The 2020/21 ioniq has a 38kwh battery and can go 274km.... 34km farther then the leaf despite having a smaller battery.
The ioniq also has a more intelligently designed cargo area and more passenger volume and a better infotainment system. Plus many other advantages.
Leaf is not good.
@@edsgarage001 thank you, then I think we will go for the ioniq👍
@@EspenJohan grease choice! 🙂 best of luck finding one
@@edsgarage001 I live in Norway, possibly electric car country no. 1. In fact there are some Ioniq for sale. I have found a 2018 model, which has gone 15,000 km, price NOK 200,000. It will be about 20,000 USD. Not so crazy I think.
@@EspenJohan oh that's great!
Yes i wish we had as many EVs available here. But Canada unfortunately just isn't a high priority for manufactures to get EVs to.
The demand is now very high, thx to the gas prices going crazy.
Im from portugal, summers here normaly are about 30 to 40°c. I think its quite high
Last year we had 42 days straight of 30-37ish degree weather
@@edsgarage001 thats alot for canada, whats the normal? The world is really changing
@@ricardosobreiro6914 I live in the southwestern corner of the country 🙂.
Temperature is quite mild here . But that was quite unusual for us. Normally we're around 25-30 throughout the summer, with the odd day getting into the 30's.
Surely the state of heath has nothing to do with degradation?
A degraded battery will still charge to 100% but will hold less power and have less range but is still regarded as healthy.
That would be the state of charge. The battery management system will disable cells that degradate, meaning those cells will not be charged. Also those disabled cells will not be counted in the state of charge calculation. So a battery with a state of health of 95% will take in 5% less electricity, but the computer will still say 100% charged. (because the 95% still active cells are 100% charged)
EDIT: I have oversimplified the above to the point of lying, but I don't feel like writing an essay.
As Henri pointed out, the state of health is specifically what percentage of battery is still functional vs original rated capacity.
Now, it's entirely possible, and likely, that Hyundai built in a small buffer to account for degradation. But the point of the video is quite clear.... If these battery's only last ten years, then shouldn't there already be some indication of degradation?
I'll do another video like this in another 5 years, and we'll see! 😊
@@HenriZwolsCells are mostly put in series (in Ioniq actually 96 in series and 2 parallel, so total 192 cells). The same current flows through all the cells. Cells cannot be "shut down" or the whole battery is shut down. Battery is pretty much as bad as the worst cell is. When first cell reaches maximum or minimum voltage, charging or discharging also has to stop. Bad cell reaches end voltage points faster than others. The whole battery capacity decreases enormously with just one bad cell though other cells might still be totally fine.
Quick shout-out to the PNW heat dome 😏😉
I love a good heat dome
Thank you for this video. It's pretty clear that the truth about EV battery longevity and degradation is not a one size fits all.
But it's also important to note there is a risk associated with some all or nothing batteries like the BZ4X or Solterra. Maybe other brands too where individual cells can't be replaced even though Toyota restricts the rate of charging to prolong the battery life. So hopefully that can prolong the life significantly beyond 10 years (Toyota promises 10% degradation in 10 years, but the fine print says 30% degradation in 10 years) which is great but just so people know the battery cost for a Solterra is US $45,000. However if the battery lasts for 30 years or longer with 50% degradation it may be worth it but once again, the devil is in the details.
That 45000 is not a realistic cost though. Lithium ion batteries are at their lowest price ever, only about $140 per kwh. Meaning the cells in a 60kwh battery should only cost a manufacturer about $8400. Now add in the cooling system, BMS and casing, and perhaps that'll double the "cost". Add in a profit margin and the battery STILL shouldn't be more than about $20,000 Tops.
The problem is, manufacturers don't want to sell just batteries, they wanna sell cars. So battery prices are marked insanely high. That practice needs to be stopped.
Thanks for the comment!
@@edsgarage001 Thanks for your very informative video and prompt response. I too was surprised to hear the battery cost was $45,000 but the dealer service department confirmed this. That being said, you are correct. Every car is different but on average the ballpark I've seen is the battery cost is 30-35% of the EV cost. And yes, Li ion battery costs have reduced quite a bit so the information was shocking to me, but i asked only last month. I did want to mention that I drove the Solterra as a loaner car and it was sublime to drive. The stability, torque, traction (has dual x mode for heavy snow/ mud), visibility was off the charts good. Unlike any SUV I've driven. Better than most cars too.
To be completely frank... I would avoid the soltera/bz4x. Toyota has no interest in building EV's so they outsourced to Subaru, a company that also isn't really interested in building EV's, and it shows. The vehicle is pretty much the lowest rated in its class. Very slow DC charging, and pretty abysmal efficiency.
Do yourself a favor and test drive an ioniq 5 or 6, learn about their benefits, especially the 800 volt battery system, which makes a massive difference.
But more then that:
-The infotainment system is significantly better in the ioniqs,
-they have way more horsepower and torque
-better warranty
-way more back seat space
-better cargo volume in the ioniq 5
-more features
Etc etc....
Plus the soltera and bz4x wheels were literally falling off.
I don't have a problem with Toyota and Subaru in general, as a matter of fact, I've reviewed other models of theirs favorably. But the EV's are just not great. 😕
@@edsgarage001 Thanks for the information. appreciate it and will definitely check them out. i was planning to look at the ioniq's and upcoming kia EV sedan.
My Nov 2018 28kw has just passed 34k kms :-)
Thx for the comment!
@@edsgarage001 mine just passed 60k kms now
I am new owner of kona.if I am correct if you have more fast charging your battery degradation is more. That's my dealer told me.true or false I don't know for sure
Yes, technically... But you'd really need to fast charge A LOT .. like more then once a week.
@@edsgarage001 maybe I am 1 week owner of ev so I am learning now. The good thing is that I have 3phase electricity and I ordered wallbox because was very slow the car charger that they gave me.thank you for your answer
Mine after 150 000km still shows 100% SOH.
I have seen another Ioniq with 208 000km and 98% SOH.
Yeah, that's awesome
oops... speed limit on hwy1 is 100km/h ;)
Shhhhhhh
Auto manufacturers don't like situations like this, lol
I just read on a forum post, about a guy in Spain with over 260,000km... With less than 4% degradation!! 😳
That's awesome! And that's even in a warmer climate!
10 years my ass!
My Ioniq 28 kWh has 125’000 km and no sign of battery degradation neither 😁
Right on
Funny when an ice hater calls someone else a hater.😂
I'm not an ice hater. I own a Hummer h3 🤷
I guess gas cars will get less efficient as time goes on, clogging, wear and tear so maybe an EV could go better!
Thx for the comment!
About 10-15% loss of capacity every 10 years.
I don't think so... It depends on where you live.. people in cooler climates aren't going to get that much degradation. I would have seen at least a few percentage of loss by now if that were the case.
My MG ZS EV has a note in the handbook that its upper temperature range is 45 degrees centigrade.
Thx for the comment!
Bro driving 130 km/h is hard?
Haha... No, that's not what I meant.
I'm hard on it, in that I always accelerate hard, take corners way to quick etc. I drive it hard.
But going 130 isn't conducive to good battery range either.
@ 8:35 "there you go, we've got 100% state of health..." *...doesn't mean what you seem to think it means.* (and it doesn't matter *which app* you use to display that info, because any of them are reporting from the same data source. I kept expecting you to do a load test, - or at least road test - that matched the one you did when it was new... but no.
You spent nearly 11 minutes without actually discovering or revealing anything pertinent to the actual capacity remaining in the traction battery in your Ioniq.
The original *usable* capacity of this vehicle is 28kwh. The *actual* capacity was 30.5kwh.
This app pulls data from the BMS about the current usable capacity. If that number is equal to, or higher then the original 28kwh, then the state of health will read at 100%
Even if the actual capacity is 30.5kwh (actual brand new capacity).
Do I have some degradation?, YES. Is it enough that my "usable" capacity is under 28kwh? NO.
I have confirmed my findings with a EV trained shop tech at the Hyundai dealership that I work at.
So my degradation is less then 8%... But to the layman, it's basically zero, thanks to the built in buffer.
With all the BS floating around the industry saying batteries will need replacing after 10 years. I wanted this video to help deter some of that negativity and fear. Call it whatever you want, but my vehicle still gets its original expected range.
@@edsgarage001 It would have been more helpful to viewers if you had explained that specifically, which would have taken less than one minute even if you read that entire reply aloud.
re: "actual brand new capacity" Well, *actual* usable capacity depends on the load. Without a comparison of a load test done now to an identical load test done when the car was new, all you know is what the manufacturer's specs are. You car is only about five years old, and you don't park it out in the Arizona sun.
The point of this video, is to combat the myths spread around in the general public about battery longevity.
I didn't want there to be ANY question, because right now the misinformation is spread heavily in the wrong direction.
The fact is, MOST EV batteries will outlive the vehicles that they're used in. Obviously not all... But most.
The EV haters basically say all batteries will fail and that they'll all need to be replaced.
So let's fight fire with fire, a little truth stretching won't hurt.
www.geotab.com/blog/ev-battery-health/
Toyota prius better then this?
Hell no... Toyota Prius still uses gas.
But even the ioniq hybrid was better then the Prius
@@edsgarage001 thank you very much Sir 😊
Look at you showboating with your sunroof 😂 you don’t see many on ioniqs and when buying my facelift model I never saw one for sale in the whole of Britain
I might not have bought it if it didn't have a sunroof lol.
Thx for the comment!
Start at 5:38 lol
🤷 need the ad revenue 🤪
thats not how you measure battery health.
Actually, on the ioniq, EV notify specifically looks at current usable capacity and compares it to original stated capacity of the battery.
So, yes, it is.
I also confirmed this finding with Torque Pro
Plus, while my vehicle is still at 100% ... There are others with ioniqs who live in warmer climates that have shown some very minor degradation, using the same app
I assume you charged your car around 600 times. Up to 300 more cycles and battery will show up significant degradation symptoms. That's the battery nature, no matter how well you maintain it. Secondly fast charging is killing the battery (dendrites), but you stated that you charge your car mainly at home (most of us has no such luxury).
I own electric bicycle, I was cycling for 375 days in any conditions (snow, heavy rain, subzero temperatures) between -8C to 36C. I charged my battery around 500 times and it's already faulty (I have no tools to fetch details regarding battery). I am not able to fully charge the battery. The are not so many battery cells so obviously it aged quicker. The same will happen to EV battery it's just a matter of time. I've seen many 7 years old EVs with degraded battery.
Last thing, my (combustion) car has 700km range so I can drive to the airport to pick up my family and get back quickly (that's ~200km), airport charges 5GBP/1h (long term) and 5GBP for pickup (10min). I can dress up and get there in no time without worrying about the battery charge status.
First,
Don't compare a bike battery to a car. For one thing, your bike battery isn't cooled.
Second, degradation is somewhat linear... It's not going to suddenly and significantly degrade in another 300 cycles. That's just silly.
Third, there's an ioniq owner in Spain who's put over 260,000 km on his, and he's only got 3.9% degradation. Would you call that significant? I certainly wouldn't. Feel free to Google that, it's on an ioniq forum.
As for an airport run, I can that too... And considering my battery is fully charged every morning, I never have to worry about it. But my 200km trip cost me $4. How much was your trip? 😅
@@edsgarage001 It costed me 15gbp including airport charge for pickup and my car costed me 26k. I'd need to drive for 12 years to pay back the difference and nobody said electricity would be in the same price. It's already raised up 2x this year (standing charge and 1kWh rate).
@@edsgarage001 The technology is exactly the same (lit-ion cells). Why would my battery need to be cooled down? I don't charge it with tens of amps, it's always stored indoors. You're kind of ignorant in terms of battery knowledge and its limitations.
Don't forget we pay 3x more for fuel in Europe than you do guys in US.
Just needed to hear about the battery degradation but heard the whole history of his grandma instead
I never mentioned my grandma... What are you on about?
Also,
Pro tip, you can skip sections of TH-cam vids
This guy did not do his research on battery degradation, or use commonly available knowledge ‘all batteries degrade’
The Ioniq reports 28kw.hr capacity, the actual capacity is 31kw.hr when new and degrades _slowly_ as do all batteries
The obd apps collecting detailed battery health show this
Lol, funny that you think I didn't do my research.
You didn't watch the entire video either.
I'm fully aware that all batteries degrade, but this battery hadn't degraded enough to show any capacity loss aside from what was within the hidden buffer. So effectively hadn't lost any range from original.
But EV haters would have you believe that this battery would definitely need to be replaced in three years.... Which is hogwash. So excuse me for a bit of exaggeration in my video to attempt to swing the pendulum the other way.
I've been an EV enthusiast since the original Saturn EV 1 came out in the early 90's.
The Ioniq EV's from 2017 to 2019 degrade EXTREMELY slowly compared to most other models. Especially in cooler climates.
@@edsgarage001I've heard it's because of the high cobalt content on this pack especially,
Why the forced
sing-song voice?
Say what??
I guess this guy would trust the gauge in his app saying that current battery health is 200%. Ridiculous.
If you don't understand how the app gathers it's info, then don't make silly assumptive comments.
The BMS in the battery pack reports the current usable capacity. EV notify is able to access that data.
@@edsgarage001 if you don't understand, that manufacturer's hardware gives whatever data manufacturer wants you to see.... like there was no dieselgate....
@@LapinskasDarius 🤦
Yes we know, science lies, earth is flat, batteries are bad, oil forever.
@@SkaBob 😂😂
The facts are the batteries only do last 10 to 15 years. VW is on record as stating 8 years. Facts don't care about your feelings (or your EV)
That's not a fact at all. That's an estimate based on unreliable worst case data from older technology.
Because VW is so believable right? 😂.
Just because "some" batteries have only lasted that long, doesn't mean they all do.
@@edsgarage001 Right. There's a guy in the UK that buys and sells used EVs. He had a 10 year old Renault Zoe in with 100,000 MILES on the clock. SOH was 98%. Pretty sure the batteries nowadays are going to outlast the cars.
@@dlittlester exactly...
But of course a 10 to 15 year old EV battery pack can readily be refurbished. It does not necessarily need to be fully replaced. Here on TH-cam, the James & Kate channel showed a UK owned 10 year old Nissan Leaf getting a battery pack refurb. The work took 4 hours, and cost James £500 (around $600)..... You could reasonably expect to pay for at least some mechanical repairs or replacements on a 10 to 15 year old ICE car......