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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 29 ก.ย. 2024
- The newest Town of Salem 2 update gave us some changes to existing roles, alongside 2 completely new ones. I'm glad they're adding more roles to this game, however, I'm worried about how they were handled. Their introduction may have a negative effect on the game...
Town of Salem 2 is a social deduction game similar to Mafia, Werewolf, or Among us. In a social deduction game, the uninformed majority has to find and vote out the informed minority before they’re killed off. In this game, the town / townies are the uninformed majority. Some of their roles include jailor, deputy, seer, cleric, and others. The coven are the informed minority- Some of their roles include conjurer, coven leader, jinx, voodoo master, and potion master. Unlike some other social deduction games, ToS2 includes neutral roles not aligned with the town or coven, that each have their own goals. Jesters aim to get themself voted out, while doomsayers try to guess the exact role of 3 players, for example. Definitely give the game a try if you’re curious! I have plenty of videos that can help teach you the basics :)
Yeah, honestly I think that to be adding more TPOW roles in general, vanilla really needs to have some of the changes from modded. I think the most impactful one isn’t even a role at all, but an alignment - Common Town.
Common Town is an alternative to Random Town which any townie can spawn in except Town Power roles. When making lists, this allows you to drastically limit how many tpows can actually spawn, which considering we now have five is very important imo
While watching this video I had the exact same thought only to find a comment who already said it
I also didnt even know modded had this allignment
This just sounds like my role and alignment max limit idea with a few extra steps. Instead of just banning roles you should be able to ban or limit them to a certain max amount and same goes for alignments
I second this. I'd personally just add a hard limit to the number of TPows that can roll in a game. The game gets extremely frustrating as Coven when too many TPows roll into the game to the point that people can just out you solely by claiming.
@@alicel4695 Yeah this is also messing up All Any pretty badly. While Common Town would be nice it's definitely not a comprehensive solution if TPows are going to be this strong.
@@mysticmismagius6298 All Any is meant to be balanced, you can have 3 CPOW and a rit
So about Socialite
You're concerns are DEFINITELY valid
Since Socialite is a Town SUPPORT role, there can be 1 or more Socialites in the game and if 1 socialite hosts a party with 2 or more socialites in play; the socialites can reveal themselves, coordinate use charges and coven or NA will never be able to use Night Chat ever.
I was able to experience this since I got a very stacked town game where Town keeps getting confirmed because of the double socialite gameplay and TI being active all around with massive coordination
Not so sure about Pros and Dep, and Marshal since I wish I can rigorously play more of them
Ngl the Socialite's party ability should be a single time ability, not 2. And if it isn't already, it should be an unique role... I don't play ToS 2 so idk about it that much but ya, the new roles seem too powerful for now.
Edit: idk much about socialite so sry if I get something wrong
Nah you right, we had 3 socialites in 1 game, coven wasn't able to use their chat because every night was party night
I think if the evils could speak in the night chat sociate could be more balanced.
Yes and no. If they were given that ability, I'm sure town would just start saying to lynch the people who didn't talk during night, unless if evils were somehow able to swap between chats.
Make it so evils could whisper anonymously ?
Maybe have it be a masquerade party and have nobody know who is speaking?
@@yourboi5492 I second this. Bc socialite rn can be used to out the Jailor and Jailee too.
I think socialite should maybe instead of shutting down night chat, should extend the day or only townies can talk during the party but are restricted on what can be said, or it's optional if you want to go to the party or not instead
Only townies in socialite chat is devastating, so imagine that thing in ranked
@@speedup2784
Yeah I was prolly on something when I said that
But it should be optional to go to, but going to it means you can't use a night ability
Honestly, one thing that could be done to balance the Socialite would be to have everyone appear as Anonymous. Evils can still coordinate, but town will know.
Like, for example:
Conjurer: Coven member down of me, target this player I'm choosing.
This would give a little info to town, but this could be orchestrated in night one, so if they say "down", they mean up, especially if the player who says it is 10, but no coven is below them.
Marshal in all any feels terrible unless you have a plan, and can scum read/ pick out the evils early (2/3's are nice, 1/3 just speeds up the game.)
in ranked, with smart players, it's too strong too fast.
If they limited Pros to only being able to pros once a day without ending the day, you get the deputy who can shoot much faster than a pros can pros and can safely take out a jester and stifle an executioner while also being able to confirm a horseman, and then you have pros who is weak to executioner/jester but is able to outright take out a horseman, and can go again the next day as long as they survive. I feel like that does actually make them different enough to warrant them being in the game together, especially since deputy is not a unique role and prosecutor is.
DAY KILLING roles were the most mind hitting thing when I moved from ToS to ToS2. Mind you, I played first game ever since it was free, had no silver coins and interface was extremely simple and not so colorful like today's Tos
The only way Town could kill someone during they day was Trial, easily and possibly able to backfire by trickery of evildoers
Another ways to have an ability to leverage by day killing made a huge change in my head - it's now much more dangerous to attempt the "vote hijack" as evildoers when you know there might be a Day killer, removing your advantage
And if we talk about both Deputy and Prosecutor being present, even before this change, I considered them both strong in their own ways, making them both different in approach
Since Deputy's shot didn't count as Vote Execution, it was a reliable way to remove potential evildoers and also persist with another way for Town to kill, while Prosecutor, albeit having two charges (meaning two potential kills), uses the potential Town Killing vote stage, making him more uses in future, but overall not affecting amount of kills Town can do during days if only one of Day Killers are present
I don't take into consideration APOCALYPSE roles, honestly. In more usual gamemodes the fact that Trial is Ultimate death (nothing protects from it) never comes in fact - nobody but Apocalypse have immunity to being shot by Deputy, making them equal in their "power" to kill
Now the differences between Pros and Deputy are their alignment only, with Prosecutor actually being more useful with him having second charge, being unique Town Power, etc.
In my opinion, they both can stay, but recent change really made them look similar instead of differing them
The issue with Marshal existing without its modded counters is a lot like why I think AA needs a ranked mode. Potential for a role (and its signature mechanic) to exist opens up so many more options for fake claims, countering enemy factions, and defending against being caught.
Also, if Transporter comes back, it opens up the option of Enchanter forging kills as coven. Too many ToS1 plays can't be done because ToS2 lacks the mechanics.
If they gave socialite only one use for their ability, I think it would make the role much more balanced
i kinda wanna see Ada look at roles that people have submitted on the forums and give her opinion on them
Can there be a mayor in a marshal game because I remember in modded there was only one or the other not both
Op adagia gameplay when? Sorry if this has been asked before
If socialite's goal is limiting covens coordination i think something like a coven traitor could work better. They should see coven like the old spy (Coven 1, Coven 2 etc) and give coven the ability to secretly whisper eachother (no whisper message, including the coven traitor).
Wouldn't the coven be able to figure out who the traitor is stupidly quickly if the coven traitor isn't able to see names? They'd just need to whisper eachother or just ask outright eachother's numbers/names, and whoever isn't able to give it is the traitor and is dying that night...
Socialite is kinda op, its a boring easy confirmable role that disproporsionally screw with evils, this is the admirer case all over again
We love powercreep!
Add back 5 max coven, ez fix for new roles
Pros is now beter becasue you can kill 2 people in 1 day
this game sucks. why did they completely gut the best role, jailor
I've been doing the "finding jailor through socialite" as both coven and town. If Rit is in the game... yeah.
Ritualist? Hardly knew er before failing a N1 guess
Prosecutor? Is that some new role? I only know of 2 roles: Deputy and 2 Deputies in a trenchcoat...
Pros is 2 deputies in a trenchcoat that bypass defense
@@cyanideytcuriousseadoggobut cause jest and exe
Judge needs to exist if Marshall does.
Absolutely. judge was the one major check to marshal in better tos, this needs to be here to balance marshall
@@Penrosian honestly, should be a Coven role. Neutral roles don't typically work with coven anymore, so Judge should be part of Coven, being guaranteed to spawn if a Marshall is in the game
They could shift pros to be like judge since they fit thematically and also is kinda redundant
@@scrazad1601 combine pros and deputy into one tpow and make Pros an evil role?
People in the replies-
Judge does absolutely nothing to balance Marshal. A hard counter that may or may not spawn is not 'balance'. It doesn't change the fact that Marshal is still the strongest TPow that simply has a hard counter that isn't guaranteed to exist. Throwing hard counters on top of each other isn't balanced, and even if Judge and Conjurer countered Marshal it doesn't prevent Marshal from being way stronger than other TPows regardless.
Make the party anonymous, so evils can still chat with each other, just in the presence of the rest of the town. Then there’s some mind games involved, and gives neutrals the chance to hand out info they might not be able to otherwise. Same for coven.
This also makes it risky for townies to change their decisions at night, since nothing can be truly trusted, but still hurts the evils some while letting more information get passed around, even if it’s sketchy.
Could even change it to a masquerade instead of a party. This is a solid idea
How about Coven can group whisper during parties (send a message to all of them at once) during the party without notifying the rest of the town.
@@Minister_for_Grass at that point its just a way for town to talk at night, since coven would have there own chat, but now has the added bonus of knowing what certain townies would do, i personally like what they did with it
Coroner change was necessary: Stone shutting down an entire role as a side effect was just unfun to the point where the entire community hated playing Coroner.
The fact that Medusa is otherwise a mediocre and slightly redundant role is a separate, but decidedly lower priority problem that can safely be fixed sometime way later in the queue of things that need to be fixed.
Agreed it shutting down ret is fine but shutting out a ti is a bit far. it makes coro alot better and now honestly one of the better Tis in the game
How is medusa redundant? It makes counting roles way harder in TT or Ranked, and it's easier for coven to steal those roles
@@vitinho2002Not really, in TT Town should know that stoned roles are almost always Town and not Coven unless something weird with witch or something happened, and stoning anyone after Night 2 is almost always useless in Ranked because by Day 3 everyone should have claimed if Town isn't passive. Also if Town is on pacing to win a coven should be dead by Night 4 the absolute latest before they lose Maj
I mean, Medusa still removes the will of stoned players, so it's not entirely useless. Being able to deny people information can be useful. The hard part is Coven needing to know how to leverage the denied info.
@@Haeters I mean, we know the stoned people are townies but that doesn't change the fact that there's 2 TIs, 1 TK, 1 TP, 2 TPOW, 1 TS and 3 RT per game, and knowing dead people's roles could confirm people and realise there are more TIs (for example) than it should. Or if there are no stoned people and there's only 1 TK claim then you can confirm them (as not a main cov, could still be tt), but you couldn't if there was a stoned player.
The way I'd have executed a "let town speak at night" role is more of a mail courier. Pick two people during day, they can chat at night, and you can't see it- You'd have to pick yourself to do that, and you don't get to do that. If someone you picked is Coven or Apoc, they don't get evil chat. This applies even if you pick two players of the same evil faction. So if you know two people are Coven but can't prove it, you can isolate them from the rest of the coven, or just one of them so they can't coordinate with the other either.
Honestly I really like this idea of all the ones I've seen so far, I think it'd be a lot of fun! Reminds me of Medium's séance ability in a way too, though you aren't communicating from beyond the grave. Even letting it be yourself and one other person would be okay with me, if it's limited charges (like maybe only twice).
whispers exist
this is pointless unless you're particularly scared of a wildling
@@GodEmperorKen whispers are visible during day chat.
mystic from throne of lies is really similar to this, the main issue from this role from that game is that it resulted in a too easily confirmed mystic townie
but it was way less of a problem in throne of lies bc of how throne of lies had fundamentally different game mechanics that made this okay
Prosecutor is now just a better deputy exept for the fact that it has to wait for voting phase.
The only thing deputy can do that pros can’t is kill a jester without dying
@@Beast-yp2eidep can attack evils before they manage to fast vote him, pros can't do the same.
Also, Pros is a unique Tpow while Dep is a not so unique tk
I think beating fast votes is better for clutch situations than being able to kill Horsemen. 2 charges vs the better ability.
I don't know why people are hung up on the fact that Dep can kill fast voters, it doesn't even matter except in a specific circumstance.
Deputy can kill 1 person. This means in order to tip the voting scale of the game during voting phase the evils and the town need to be of equal numbers. This means no fast voting will occur since fast votes would only end in a tie(assuming everyone plays optimally, you can't account for stupid).
There is an exception to this rule in the case of an evil being knighted since that might create a fast vote situation with unequal numbers, thereby making this useful. But this situation isn't common enough to the point where I would prefer only a single use daykill instead of double use.
I like that they added Marshal as it has some testing from better ToS, but the lack of the Judge hardcounter and the interaction with Pros makes it quite oppressive. I'm not sure how to change it to make it work better for ToS2 though because all of the reworks I've seen haven't solved the main problem with non-modded Marshal - its confirmability
Socialite is really unhealthy for the game and I wish it wasn't because the art for it is amazing aaaaa
The concept of a "allow players to chat at night" role isn't awful but the execution is terrible. I've seen suggestions to rework it to ToL Mystic and that might be the best we can get
I’m not familiar, what does the Oracle do?
@@michaele8444 misremembered the role name - it’s actually mystic
Mystic allows two players to speak at night. The mystic can listen in on these people speaking. Alternatively the mystic can talk to someone themself if they feel like it
It’s not great but it’s better than current socialite
Whats Tol
@@Brokendog-wt4ul Throne of Lies
I think Marshall is balanced when the sole tpow, when combined with other tpows it quickly becomes unfair
Yes i had a game where i coordinated with mayor as marshal and we took out the entire neutral apocalypse
Modifier: 1 or 2 TPows per game. This could be used for Ranked lists.
Oh yeah, I've used Socialite against the Jailor several times.
It's THE Anti-Jailor role.
It's actually smarter as a townie to NOT speak unless you got something important to say if you got a Jailor because you will out them if everyone speaks.
I am pretty sure Dev's didn't think of it that way or had the intention to have the role work the way it does, but yeah, Jailor is in trouble cause of Socialite.
[Sometime's it's smarter to not even Jail N2 solely because of that.]
A further point on the prosecutor buff: Isn't Marshal just worse Prosecutor? Pros gets to choose two people to instakill all on their own and then oh no, they only get one vote instead of two for their third kill, and they can also back out of the decision to kill the third person, and they also see the roles come out between kills, and they can choose to space out the kills if they wish. Meanwhile Marshal is at the mercy of the town for all three votes (so if it's coven majority the marshal just dies) and doesn't get the extra vote after the tribunal, so is in the same position as pros afterward.
The thing is that Pros has to do their roles separated over multiple days, which in a 4v4 or such (which happens very often so is relevant), means you can kill them before they get the other proses off. Marshall can do it all in one day, and that one day can make all the difference.
@@BoltTheEmolga they can pros multiple times per day since it doesn't consume the trial anymore
@@BoltTheEmolga in the recent pipetron video i saw prosecutor prosecute two people in one day, and then a third got hanged the same day. so no, that's not true
Yeah it deffo feels like pros is an upgraded dep and upgraded mon
@@dusaprukiyathan1613 …okay never mind ignore me lol
Main/only benefit then is that if you misfire you don’t immediately die on the spot
They have learn the day where Spy can read Maf chat... right?
i think jailor should have a second chat when socialite party along with jail chat
I think pros should be a high risk high reward deputy. Maybe it only doesn’t take up a trial if the pros gets it right. So if they mislynch, towns down 2 townies and a trial.
I felt like an appropriate buff to illusionist would be to allow them to visit non-coven and show them an illusion, in effect acting like the hypnotist in TOS 1. They would still keep the ability to illusion coven as no-blood/not sus/not trigger defences
Pirate deals an Unstoppable attack, Crus can't save you. BG could, maybe, But I'm not sure if Pirate's attack counts as a direct one
If the pirate won 0 duels, he dies if he wins or loses, if he's at 1 win, if he wins the duel he survives. The pirate dueling someonee counts as a direct visit.
The problem is that the Pirate, if they haven't guaranteed a win that night, dies to a Crus regardless, at least to me. A no win Pirate in a Crus game is a sitting duck. I would probably make it so that a Pirated Role (since it's a day job ability, yes?) can't speak at night. It'd prevent someone from just calling out for TP, and would also (to a point) slow down the "Jailor is always quiet" part by having more people unable to talk at night. It wouldn't stop it, since Jailor would always be not talking, but it'd help a little.
@@EverfreeFire one idea i had was having pirate and pirated unable to attend the party, like you suggested, but also exclude admirer and the person they're proposing to, for gamemodes where Pirate is banned
I think Marshal would be fine if Judge got added in too, but as is it’s a bit too dominant. Also, iirc in the modded version of Marshal, it and Mayor were mutually exclusive, they couldn’t appear in the same game. That would be a significant help.
as someone who never watched modded games, what does judge do?
Know marshall, make votes annoymus to begin with, you do same for the chat
@@Underworlder5 Judge has ToS1 win condition - survive to see Town lose.
Judge has a day ability to call court: chat and voting become completely anonymous. Everyone but the Judge is called by Jury, while the Judge is called by, well, Judge, so he can direct evils to target certain people. Judge also gets 3 votes for the day, to help get their targets lynched.
This court calling *can* be called during a Marshal Tribunal, meaning a Judge and evils get to take over and lynch 3 townies.
That’s the easiest way to put it - here’s a decent video of it in action. th-cam.com/video/u1Wi1ZHZ4sY/w-d-xo.html
@@Underworlder5 You know Town of Salem 1 Witch? Their desire is just to have town lose?
It's like that, but with the powers of the Mayor.
Judge brings (something something) to court. And everyone becomes the Jury. Judge has 3 votes, and it removes everyone from knowing who is voting by design even when the rules were set to have people know. So it can hijack Marshal since the evils can vote without fear of giving themselves away, and they have essentially a corrupt Mayor on their side too.
I think its only for one day though
@@Underworlder5 Judge can call court once per game which makes chat and voting anonymous for that day, aswell as giving the Judge 3 votes whilst court was active. It essentially could hijack a Marshal group lynch and kill 3 town if used correctly, which is why it was so good at countering Marshal.
actively watching, Marshal seems ass in this form honestly. Way too cannon-ey, makes too much of the rest of the overall game seem comparatively less significant. Balance matters on some level even in all-any. Marshal CAN do what it shouldn't be able to on each side.
I like socialite even tho it can screw jailor pretty hard. It seems like an interesting support role to me.
EDIT: Your pirate point on socialite is intelligent as well
EDIT EDIT: I think it speaks well of the devs to be adventurous as opposed to letting things stagnate. I think Marshal in this form is a bit of a miss but that can be rectified
I'm no pro but I'd change Marshal to 2 consecutive votes instead of 3 without an extra vote for the Marshal which puts it in LINE with an optimal prosecutor game at its height (more immediate) with some throw potential on the worse end. I can't pretend this is the most informed idea
she does have a very good point I’ve seen plenty of games already where people claim pirated and a crusader or a town protect will go on them and kill the pirate or prevent the pirate from killing hell sometimes evils will literally figure out who is the pirate and just target them directly
But then it’s just a worse prosecutor who cannot even pick who to kill, and is forced into to use both in the same day
it's not just worse, you get the payment fully upfront in exchange for the throw risk which means that Marshal can't just get killed before using its second trial.
EDIT: and even when exe/jest kill it it seems to still get the second trial making that "upfront payment" an actual absolute @@thatcooldudeisawesome876
It's like it has become random generated kills and hoping you're lucky in Russian roulette plays over social deduction aspect. Maybe give coven guaranteed ritualist or make doomsayer mandatory to shut these down in making them high reward but also high risk. Because where is deduction and sneaking your way into majority?
I think an interesting way to balance socialite would be to make night chat anonymous. Coven still won't be able to communicate well, but they could also establish a secret code of sorts the night before to still talk and coordinate. Town could also fake being coven to trick the coven members, or vice versa, which I think would be very interesting gameplay.
1:07 The other main difference is the prosecutor has to wait for the voting phase to prosecute and risks getting fast-voted in a evil maj situation, where as deputy you can shoot the moment the day starts.
I think Marshal is the most fun role ever made in mods and the entire game as a whole, but I 100% agree that ESPECIALLY without Judge it's way too powerful, not to mention Modded TOS1 was usually played with good players who would throw was less with it. With it being in vanilla TOS2 things could get bad fast. That's not even the role's fault it's just not built for the TOS2 meta.
I played Modded ToS1 and yeah... Marshal is busted without Judge acting as a counter, since Judge can fakeclaim Marshal, force the REAL Marshal to reveal themselves, and then just screw over Town, but only if all the players in the lobby are good...
With the Buffs to Pros, Deputy has no reason to exist imo.
They do nothing that the Pros cannot do better ( with the single exception of the rare case of killing a jester)
Either of them needs to be changed, but currently, deputy is (while still strong) just a very bad role, just because pros exist.
only jesters and executioners counter pros, by instant killing them.
Deputy can still kill these roles, but that's about it.
At the very least prosecutor shouldn't be able to use his ability twice in a day. That just makes him stronger than marshal lol. Or if he can lynch twice give him some kind of nerf like if he lynchs a townie he gets hung like a dying vigi would.
@@icycloud6823pros already dies for prosecuting a townie. Having only 1 prosecution per day with the change to not lose the trial seems good
@@cyanideytcuriousseadoggo Oh yeah I forgot huh. So yeah, at the very least give him only 1 prosecution a day.
My suggestion is making socialite an every day ability, where they create a party of up to 3 people (and the socialite)
A quick correction I want to make: Marshall is not bettertos original, it comes from a mod for (of all things) Starcraft 2, which I think was the inspiration for ToS1 a long time ago. Marshall is pretty much the same from SC2 with one difference: in the original, unless intentionally making a role list with both, Mayor and Marshall are exclusive. Marshall is generally considered balanced in that situation, especially since there is no other "insta-confirmed town roles" other than those two, of which you get one. Now pardon while I rant about Socialite for a moment...
I think you can make an argument night coordination is in fact quite powerful; most Social Deduction games have mechanics in play specifically to make it very tricky to coordinate and communicate among fellow evils. I remember playing Mafia IRL, and the Mafia never got to speak to each other in private. Everyone had their eyes closed but obviously could still hear. The Mafia had to silently point, make nods, and otherwise communicate non-verbally and quietly. Removing Spy as a "anti-night chat" was always a bad balance move to me, but I saw why it was healthy to the game itself: New players don't know what a "Spy" is and will assume that night chat is safe, and accidently reveal all of the mafia to the town. Its hard to even blame the new players for this.
Original ToS1 Spy I always found bafflingly overpowered when compared to the SC2 original. The original Spy from SC2 could read whispers but that ability was removed in 2013 because it made Spy instantly confirmed, and on default settings Spy only got to see who the evil teams attacked each night instead of who was visited by any evil teammate. Their ability to read night chat was also limited, if I recall correctly, in that you got to see messages but not which player or even which team sent them. Considering SC2 had up to 3 evil night chats and 1 town night chat, it made it hard to tell if "check 7" was an order to convert them (think vampires), an order to reveal them (think PM), an order to try adding them to the town team (no real ToS version), or just an evil faction messing with a possible Spy.
Without Spy (or any role) being able to read whispers, it means that all evils have two options to coordinate. Night chat, which MAY be at risk of being listened via Spy. Or whispers, which MAY cause town to grow suspicious but is guranteed secure. Also, Spy being able to listen could be used to one's advantage. Spies will usually announce their information, instantly confirming real spies to the evil teams, but an evil can also fake spy by intentionally sending specific messages and then claiming to be a Spy that read those messages, so Spy claims are never truly trustworthy. In addition, with a town team that talks at night, evils can pretend to be that town team, throwing further confusion.
This is all very fun nuance WHICH DOES NOT EXIST WITH SOCIALITE.
Socialite does not make night chat risky and require careful wording. It, without warning, deletes BOTH of your options to coordinate for a night. If you knew a party was coming, you would whisper your teammates your plans during the day (if Wildling was confirmed to not be in play or on your team). You don't know in advance, and you also can't whisper at night, so suddenly you have ZERO ability to coordinate for the night. There is no nuance; unless you are coven coordinating in whispers is too risky, while at night you have no option at all with Socialite.
It's extremely toxic game design, and I feel like is trying to solve a problem (that being how easy it is for evils to win if they coordinate in night chat unrestricted) that had a better solution years ago. If they wanted to nerf night time coordination, they should give back Spy's ability to read evil chats and rework Socialite.
Those where some verry good points.
The issue right now is not that town is weak,
There are simply TOO MANY TROLLS AND REGHUNTERS WHO THROW GAMES FOR NOTHING
There's several changes here I don't really enjoy. To me it appears that the thing that got strengthened the most here was the potential for game-throwing.
Marshal is a complete hit-or-miss role. It is guaranteed to speed up the game but can be very frustrating, because of how swingy it is. I think that the role should ramp up slowly. Then you're forced to consider more when it is best to unleash your ability.
Socialite is a powerful role, but still hard to gauge exactly how much impact it will have. I'd prefer it if players would be given a choice on attendance at the beginning of the night. And we need roles that counter socialite. Let poisoner randomly poison several attendees if they still have their charge. Let werewolf rampage the party at the cost of revealing. Let pestilence spread their disease (double the number of infected attending).
Prosecutor needed the buff, but I think it was approached badly. I like that they can now prosecute up to twice in a day, but dislike that it still allows for a regular lynch.
Deputy could be rolled into Vigilante at this point.
Illusionist/Seer are good changes.
Other than the changes to seer, illu and coroner, I really dislike this update. I dont like the buff to pros, and I dont like the new roles. I liked dep being the only town with the ability to kill during the day (old pros doesnt count since it was basically the trial). Now we have the chance to kill 6 people in ONE day? This is crazy. The concept of socialite is kind of cool but I feel like evils as a whole didnt need a nerf.
Sadly, I know these 2 roles are here to stay. The pros buff is also here to stay it seems since from what I've seen I'm in the minority with my take.
I think adding another tpow role like marshall is pretty dumb.. they should have added another ts role like say for example a blacksmith that gives a player powerful attack or defence for 1 night. a hard role to confirm, except if you see a vigi or crusader kill a role that has strong defence. That being said.. Invest and spy are still trash roles in new tos2.
About BetterToS... it's nice. It's more variety to those who like it, but Marshall is something I believe should be kept at where he originates.
I’m just annoyed they haven’t removed or changed trickster yet…
I agree so much with everything in this video. Genuinely believe that the new roles added aren't healty for the game's balance :(
i have a theory about Dreamweaver meta
Coven will claim dreamwoven so they can confirm themselves as townies (since dreamweaver can only dreamweave town)
Dreamweaver needs to dreamweave at least one or maybe 2 players to confirm it's a dreamweaver game
they seem to be to far in one direction and my mindset is like they seem to be pushing away new players as the more roles you add in the more u need to know it also allows for shorter games as both marshal & Socialite can find coven easy which in turn could put coven in a bad state in the game making it seem that the game is to overbalanced and “non-playable”. I just think they need strength poisoner to allow for: If the poisoner poisons the socialite a day before they use a party, the party does not happen. So we could have it more balance and the coven get to talk
For Marshal I feel like you just need one more coven role that can kill during the day bc you have dep,pros, & now marshal VS Conj. To me if u have all 3 VS a Dreamweaver,conj, wilding, witch Or whatever & u don’t kill at least one of those roles, their gos your entire team. So ADD another role for coven
Or I know in a mode Marshal & judge was hand & hand meaning only one will appear in a game this, would really help say with Marshal & Pros, Marshal & Socialite, Marshal & mayor etc. Also we need socialite to be a unique role too.
To answer your question about Dep vs Pros:
Prosecutor is Unique, Deputy is not.
Prosecutor gets two charges, Deputy gets one.
Prosecutor can kill evolved horsemen, Deputy cannot.
So Pros is a much stronger Dep basically.
Is there a point of having both? No idea. But I am very happy they buffed the Pros cause it used to be a joke.
My suggestion for socialite would be this. Coven and NA should be able to whisper anonymously with each other. In addition Jailor should be able to do the same, I.e when they whisper it goes to the jail chat but they can talk in the party. That or just make the socialite unique with one charge.
Both roles are very toxic towards new players, coven chat and apocalypse chat are really good for helping new evils with their role, and socialite stopping that ability just makes it more confusing for them.
Marshal tribunals are also hard to adapt to when someone is just learning the game
Since classic is dead, new players would have to queue into all any, where these roles are definitely going to have an impact
also crusader can't save you against pirate, only bodyguard can
I hate marshal so much
Marshal is "Oh, you wanted to hang three townies today? I can do that." It's a role that's more powerful if it never uses the ability.
Socialist is kinda.. meh/ Which probably means it's balanced. But we have enough TSs who can self-confirm.
A change I've seen recommended for socialite is to make it so you can't party two nights in a row, giving it a global cooldown which allows evils to have a night of freedom after a party. I'm not sure how balanced it is but it does sound a bit better to me than the current situation, where multiple socialites can completely shut down night chat
No way marshal isn't getting nerfed
"RIP Medusa"
Coroner can bypass most coven tricks, it was always weird that Medusa was the exception. This is just a consistency change more so than a Medusa nerf.
personally, i am glad coroner gets buffs. for a long time it was pretty much just invest but worse, and no one wanted to be a coroner. now it has a useful niche in being one of only two infallible town roles (alongside spy)
I honestly can't stand this update.
For marshal, there is a lot that needs to happen for it to be balanced. Maybe if they add a condition for games that role a marshal, no other tpow can be rolled for that game. If they don't do that much, it's only monarch that can coexist with marshal. Idk.
For socialite, keep town chat separate from evil chat so that evils can still coordinate and for town, make it so that every townie is completely anonymous with no numbers and same name tag of "unknown" or "town member". This way town still has to figure out who is evil and who isn't while getting a little more time to coordinate
These are just some ideas to bounce around
Yes
It needs to be anonymous
separating town chat and evil chat would just confirm towns extremely easily. even making them anonymous would help little, since they can just say who they are. after all, if only real townies can speak up and listen, then there is no reason to lie about who you are
@@Underworlder5 yes if your evil
@@Underworlder5 maybe throw in nes like exe, doom, and jest into town chat to make you think twice about open claiming early on or to throw in a little chaos to keep town on thier feet while still keeping coven, na, and nks separate and to be able to maintain their ability to coordinate.
Personally, I have a lot of Marshal experience in both games.
And, I always see people just fast voting instantly without thinking even when the have 50 seconds during Tribunal. And, Marshal is very good imo, just the community isn't taking it to well.
Socialite is bad, I thought after what happened with Amne And Admirer in Alpha was done and dealt with, but heres another instantly confirmable non-tpow role.
Also the point with Jailor u brought up was a good one, Coven can easily deduce Jailor especially after VFA.
But yes, Socialite is very strong if town actually coordinate.
I could go ranting about it but devs won't listen cuz it's a new role.
There's a theory going around that the devs are running on thin ice with their economy
Which explains the need to rush updates and ranked out the window without considering how balanced the individual roles are.
If that's the case, they need to open up another kickstarter.
Prosecutor and Marshall seems too much. Deputy is enough since there is conjurer.
It feels like vigilantes but while people are revealing themselves
In the original BetterTOS, Marshall could never appear in the same game as Mayor. I think it should carry over here, and Marshall, Mayor, and Prosecutor should be mutually exclusive.
I would also nerf Prosecutor by limiting prosecutions to one a day, and make Admirer, Socialite, Trickster, and Veteran unique roles.
I think having more town power is good as long as they can’t dominate an game, I feel like the difference between Marshal and Mayor/Prosecutor is that those 2 roles are benefit from revealing during a mid area of the game, while marshal benefits from the beginning and near the end, both times where it should be the least clear on what to do, meaning that it is easier for Marshal to wipe out multiple evils, while Mayor and prosecutor have to be careful when they use their ability out of fear of wasting it or making a clear mistake
I've always said Deputy shouldve been TPow.
It doesnt kill anyone, no one can be protected from it, it happens during the day, it reveals their role.
It has always been just a Pros but with only one shot.
I think it should have basic attack, but two shots. Because revealing a NK to be voted off is literally the whole point of the NK role. You *aren't* supposed to be kill NKs without sacrificing something else
A NK shouldnt be removed with a single button that doesn't have counterplay or any downsides
(put pros back to what it was before, but let it choose Inno or Guilty because that makes way more sense)
Sunk around 30 games since the new roles dropped, and I can confidently claim that Marshal is the least healthy role possible in ToS2, *especially* in CAA where the majority of players are.
Functionally, it plays as pure coin flip nonsense. Marshal pops out, three townies die with no counterplay. Or, marshal pops out, 3 evils die with no counterplay. What doesn’t help is the fact that the role heavily disincentives strategic planning in favor of letting the town mob(half of which are *not* townies on d2 by average) kill three players at pseudo random.
As we know, random lynching almost always favors evil roles disproportionately, and Tribunal is essentially 3 random lynches in practice.
Socialite is actually fairly balanced IMO. I’ve yet to have a lobby where the jailor/jailed interaction has even been possible, but the ability to call for help when you’ve been pirated is definitely the more powerful way to use the role. Most coven players know how their roles are supposed to coordinate with eachother, and a socialite popping out just gives Coven more opportunities to build credibility and sheep town roles.
Socialite:
Make unique and cooldown between entertainment
Marshal:
Add judge
Add Transporter back, but with changes that make the role less confusing
- if you visit a transported target you know who they were transported with and get their results
- a spy’s bug reveals who was transported
- Transporter is a town power
- a coven power counterpart to transporter, the only difference being obviously they’re suspicious
Imo Marshal can't be balanced in the role itself, it will always be broken. The way u nerf it is making guesser roles even stronger and add the modded counter measures too like the entire Neutral periah aligment for example. It would make the game more fun and balanced for evil, Cuz currently town stomps evil 9/10 times.
What if the Deputy didn't get killed for shooting wrong? What if they also didn't get auto-confirmed, but instead can only shoot if they haven't spoken and become silenced for the rest of that day? This would allow others who stayed silent to cc Deputy the day after the shot, or Medusa/Enchanter to steal the claim outright.
I think the Prosecutor shouldn't have been buffed, instead still using up the trial. They can kill invincible roles! Letting them use the ability twice is fine with that drawback.
I don't like either of the new ones. Stopping all evils from communicating is anti-gameplay, and will heavily reward people using voice chat, who'll be able to cheat in a fully undetectable way during those parties. Tribunals are fun, but they force the game to be decided as soon as the tribunal is declared. Whether by luck, trickery or deduction, the voting majority will, in all but a few cases, be irrevocably be decided after the tribunal ends. And that's anti-gameplay, too.
With Prosecutor being unique and Deputy not, I think I'm fine with them being similar with Deputy being overall weaker
Socialite is definitely overtuned at the moment. Probably one less charge or something
Marshal seems fine as is
Marshal balance:
If a Town Power role (except the Marshal themself) is lynched during a tribunal the Marshal will be hung by the hangman. Tribunals can no longer extend the voting phase past 30 seconds (tribunals cause the voting phase to last 45 seconds which is waaay too long and allows town to not vote).
1:08 extremely hot take, deputy shouldn't die from a bad shot. Prosecutor can now kill two people in a day, as well as hang someone normally. Deputy only gets one shot, so it should be risk-free, otherwise it's just a worse Prosecutor by a mile (with the exception of getting Conj'd before you use your ability)
Ngl when I saw socialite, I wanted to throw it out the window. Also prosecutor went from utter shit to busted because it can prosecute twice a day. Had a game where the pros managed to kill two evils in one day and then town lynched another evil. So effectively, new pros is like a second Marshall which is uh… not great. Honestly, this update really crippled evils for seemingly no good reason. Like, I can understand wanting to maybe weaken the evil faction a little bit, but this is WAYYYY too far.
CHAT TABS ARE A NECESSITY! Night party chat, Night jail chat for jailor. Coven get night party chat, night coven chat. Simple and easy.
I admit I didn’t like the Marshall in BToS and I still don’t know how I feel. It is just a bit too overtuned and certainly still too modded feeling.
Town has a lot of role overlap which is a bit of a shame. Pros, Dep, and arguably Vigi all do the same thing which is really sad.
Worst part is that I cant think of a big change for Pros. Deputy staying Green Conj is a good idea so I want that to stay. Maybe for Pros you are given 3 charges that you can either use 2 to prosecute and kill someone as it is now or you use a single charge during voting to have your result be guaranteed. Say town got sheeped too hard and an evil will get inno, you can use your charge to override the votes and get your result, same way for innoing. Think it would play nicely as a TT Pros as well
I find that the Coroner buff is good for the game. Medusas main purpose isnt even countered by it like how Amne counters Medusa.
The Socialite points are extremely valid especially admirers who i think can still freely talk that night, but in addition to all of that, its another free instant confirm role that town has, bringing the total to 7 with Marshal.
I agree with Marshals issues.
I think prosecutors buff just gives town too many day kills.
I have always thought that deputy and pros were essentially the same with one always being just a better/worse version of the other. At least this way it makes sense, considering town powers are supposed to be, well, powerful. The way it was before, deputy was more or less strictly better than pros, since pros basically didn't do anything (it was literally impossible for him to escape evil majority, or even a tie, unless it was a 1v1). Now pros is in almost every respect a better version of deputy, with the minor caveat of jester and exe. I agree with you that it really doesn't make sense for both of them to exist, considering how similar their roles are. Removing one would also mean less self-confirming roles, which I think would help a lot.
You forgot that Pros also double tap. Yes, games were lost due to that, more than once or twice. NK's are in a very bad spot currently (especially shroud boys) and while town is buffed with two new roles and pros change, that does not change the fact how bad Invest/sherif/ret/admirer/coroner are.
I don’t know I feel like I’ve given up now and I’m fine that they’re trying to appeal to a casual audience.
I would love for the tribunal to stop with the dead of the Marshal and that’s all I can think of.
Socialite I don’t know add a you can’t party 2 nights in a row cooldown ? Make it unique ?
There’s no way of going about it without reworking their ability in some way.
Yea, the new roles needs balancing.
Marshall as you said has too much gamethrow potential. Socialite? Well, it outs the jailer easily enough and cripples coven against an already pretty powerful town.
My suggestion on Marshall is to force Marshall to wait a few more nights until they use their ability. At least in that case people can vote with more information.
Socialite's fix could be: When they throw a party it invites say 5 random people but never anyone that is pirated. At least in this way any evils not in the party can still coordinate and it doesn't out the jailor/ screw over pirate.
I am sure my ideas has it's own issues but I am just mentioning the first thing that came to mind.
I currently have 150 hours in ToS2 and I love the game. I haven't had a negative experience with Socialite but I completely agree with your points on it, honestly they should be unique and have only 1 use imo.
But my last 4 AA games where I was a town (and even claimed) got killed by a day 2 Marshall because they wanna troll and they even opening admit doing so.
Honestly after that, it really killed my enjoyment of the game and I haven't been interested in playing it since. It sucks because I like the game
I think a way to nerf socialite while keeping the main mechanic is to just make the chat anonymous, so town can still coordinate and evils still have a weaker but existing way to make choices
The difference between deputy and prosecutor is:
Deputy is a direct powerful attack and will gain blood and is not unique.
Prosecutor doesn’t attack at all and will not gain blood and can prosecute twice in a single day it also unique (unless amne exists).
There is one difference you forgot to mention for Prosecutor vs Deputy is that evil majority can fast vote the prosecutor to stop them from using their ability.
Meanwhile Deputy is guaranteed the chance to get their shot off in clutch moments by shooting in the discussion phase before evils can fast vote them.
As for your worry about town staying quiet in socialite chat, you didn’t speak it into existence. I saw the role card text about the Jailor Socialite interaction and knew that at least some townies would shut up to protect their jailor. Other issue is that socialite isn’t unique so evils can get whole games without night chat if multiple socialites are in the game. I think the solution is to limit socialite to one gathering and make the role unique since that ability is powerful to be made single-use for town
Jailer: why not?
Socialite: because you KIDNAP people at night
That got me 😂
Marshal is op imo ive had the past 25 games just be marshal popping out d2 and killing atleast 1-2 evils and then tk just wipes the rest up
Socialite is very fun! Socialite has some very niche strong points like the pirate thing the vid mentioned but nost of the time its just used for extra vfa time or whatever
I have got idea how Marshal can be nerfed. Maybe tribunal can be counter of conj nukes them during the day and stop tribunal. Also once tribunal starts other tpow and dep cant use there abilities during tribunal
Like for example Marshal starts a tribunal and the mayor can't reveal them self during tribunal
mayor is the only role that can use their ability during a tribunal I'm pretty sure
Pros can use there ability during tribunal and dep can still shoot during tribunal
Pros and Marshal can get up to 5 hangs in a single day
i might be crazy but tbh i think that coexistence of pros and dep is fine. pros is a unique tpow and triggers on hanged effects while dep is a non-unique TK that can shoot jesters and exe targets and be a-OK
I think socialite needs a balance:
During Entertain, everyone’s chats are anonymous to everyone BUT the socialite that initiated the Entertain.
Socialite is now Unique and can no longer Entertain two nights in a row.
Socialite isnt anywhere near as bad as spy. Socialites night chat is confirmed and broadcast to you, so you know for sure its in the game and happening this night. Old spy was terrible because its mere existence as a role potential made it impossible to talk. it was always active and didnt notify you if there was a spy or not in the game.
One great thing that I played was I was an amne marshal who didn’t get mayor because of an earlier amne so out of the blue Death happened and I just said well now everybody dies it was final 4 as long as I was faster and i was i could kill everyone and win lucky me I killed the last evil first
The first difference between shooting a target and hanging a target that comes to mind is shooting bypassing Jester shenanigans and Exe Pushes; both which would punish the Prosecutor one-sidedly. i.e. The deputiy gets immunity from retaliation for shooting the clown-classes, but is less versatile in them not being able to kill horsemen amd less powerful due to only having a single bullet.
Socialite would have been better if the chat was anonymous like everyone was wearing masks and couldn’t recognize each other
Hey, there is one more difference between Deputy and Prosecutor: 🎉 JESTER!!! 🎉
As it stands, pros is a better deputy. The only difference is jester or executioners, which counters pros but not deputy. And pros can kill horsemen roles, unlike deputy. Pros should be forced to use trials separately, so that they can't pros twice in one day.
Socialite, as some people pointed out, should allow evils to whisper [invisible, like tos1 lovers whisper] during the night. It would make it harder to coordinate, but not impossible.
Maybe jailor could speak in both socialite and jail chat, with a tab to swap between the two? Or it could be the risk of socialite using their ability to out jailor.
What if a pirate gain basic defense after successfully pirating someone? Still dies to sk, coven, shroud, crus, and vigis if they fail to pirate someone, but makes it easier to survive after winning the first match.