Against the Giants Story
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 26 มิ.ย. 2023
- The story in G1, G2, and G3 needs love. Let's talk about what's there and how you can make it come alive for the player when you run this 3 module series in advanced Dungeons & Dragons.
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12:24 -- "You kill Clown Giants," -- One small slip of the tongue for you, one giant nightmare for my players.
I can't think of two words that more succinctly express absolute terror, and now I need to write down a whole first act for my next campaign. They thrown pies instead of boulders, but with the same damage.
DUDE NO! CLOWNS ARE BAD.
As someone who played in the 1980s and went through Against the Giants, we did not have a pre-fab story. Sure there is a backstory hook, but you just need to get the PCs to the Giants house and start working through it, and the story is that journey, as it emerges in the dialogue between the DM and the players. It was a time before video games influenced the game to have a bunch of known end states after various phases of the adventure which led to the WoTC railroad (as did Tracy HIckman's Ravenloft thing, but that was late 80s). The "classic DM" would present the world, deploy the rumors (via NPCs, written texts, etc.), let the players choose what they want to do, and then go from there. No one knows the story until the players choose what to do and you run the adventure and see what happens...And if you want to do this with 5e superhero PCs, you have to make the monsters vastly stronger or it will be BORING.
Awesome insight and absolutely true. When we played in middle and high school we were just stoked to kill shit. 😂
@@Classic_DM IKR? :D We didn't always have a sandbox, but I did learn how to run one with Keep and Isle in the BX set...Sometimes it was just whatever the DM of the day had ready for the group...I tried running Chris Perkins' conversion of Tomb of Horrors for 5e, and it was the Tomb of Borrors. They had a monk that could walk on walls and some dumb race that could fly and so all the traps were nullified, and the monsters were a joke....My opinion of Chris Perkins's written work is very low. That 5e DMG he made is terrible, it has no DM tools in it!!!
Exactly. Let's get to the action and quit farting around. Watching online play just drives me nuts sometimes... 3,4,5,6 episodes in and finally getting into the actual play.
We were getting clobbered.
We went to Gamma World
Stun whips. Powered armor. Energy grenades.
What a fantastic experience.
Gamma World was awesome long before Fallout 1 and 2 :)
G1 was the first module TSR published, before the Monster Manual was published. Introduced at Origins '78. T1 was published later.
Great update to the actual history and publication order! Thanks!
Updating the Giants to 2nd edition certainly made a hard challenge harder!
I always thought that there was a missed opportunity for the players to be on the receiving end of a Giant raid as a pre-cursor. They can hear rumors first about the raids and maybe there is a call to arms or bounties for defeating Giants that they answer. They travel to a village on the boarder lands and use it as a home base to discover more about these raids where they get to know the locals and develop relationships with the village folk. Then the village they are staying in gets raided, catching everyone by surprise. You can re-enact that opening cover of when the modules were combined of the three types of giants, confirming that there is some sort of unholy alliance of giants. By this time, the players are invested in this.
The raids before maybe just had a Hill Giant and some Ogres with Orcs/Goblins as cannon fodder, but they have clues that set them off. Have one where maybe a farm that was attacked is coated in ice and it is in the middle of Summer, or a Thorp was completely burned to the ground had a shattered Fire Giant Great sword or a helmet that is beyond anything a Hill Giant would possess or make. Maybe even start giving Hill Giants and Ogres real equipment instead of furs and clubs.
A clever GM can easily level up a party to the point they are able to start the real adventure... even at lower levels where maybe Goblins and Orcs are marauding because they are either in service to the Giants, being displaced because of the Giants, or fleeing the Giants to avoid being slaves to them themselves (or all three events happen). Again, this is a great way to invest the players, specially in a sandbox game.
My GM re-did this series as a Epic level adventure for a 3.5 game before Covid where even the Drow were not the final 'boss', instead making it Erythnul. Was pretty insane... and fun.
Brilliant idea and this would sell well as an OSRIC adventure! The key here is getting the players invested as you suggest, by building relationships with local folks. I love it.
You're on a roll with these videos lately :D Looking forward to the next one.
Never really thought about how the map is in a way very similar to the Caves of Chaos... A valley instead of a rift peppered with caves but kinda in reverse where you start at the top and work your way down into the rift.
Pintar's maps are amazing!
He's super talented. Check out all his amazing AD&D maps.
If you spook that great hall in the Hill Giant fort it is game ON. Damn that’s a lot of enemies to contend with.
That hall is definitely a nasty fight. Thankfully the right side has nothing important in the way and there are lots of choke points. The narrow hallway between areas 5 and 6 is perfect!
This was actually really well done. Well presented based on solid analysis and well thought out advice.
Thanks for the kind words.
My first DM did run it where we HAD to go, they equipped us and the Ranger got a two handed Giant Slaying sword, AD&D 1e and a ranger hitting for like 28 to 40 points of damage! I myself as DM always run my groups through the series, I have modified the number of monsters and loot to suit the party. No one ever goes onto the Drow series. I strongly disagree with the amount of poison being used by the Drow, especially when running 1st edition as that is the sole really useful ability of Assassins. I instead leverage the Drow surprise ability and have fighter/mages attack with haste, fire shield, enlarge, and strength buffs. The party always gives up as the fights are brutal and there really is no reason to pick a fight with a city filled with Drow.
Running G2 in Roll20 (1st Ed. AD&D) right now using Pintar’s maps - they’re stellar!
Aww man I wish I could play with you guys!!
My storyline was very different in specifics, but similar on the larger scale. Worked so good I ran this like 6 times back in the 80s alone.
Awesome to hear. It's my all-time favorite due to the theme and locations!
When I ran the Frost Giant module, we had a PC Fighter who had the Power armour from Expedition to the Barrier Peaks..... until he met the Remorhaz! He lost the armour and NEVER played again!
Yikes. I would never quit on that, but live and learn!
pleasant find from Minds platform
What's Minds platform?
I always thought the name of the hill giant chief was misspelled and was supposed to be Nosenra - Arneson backwards. When I last went through this series there was a courier between the slave lords and the giants that we found cowering in the boat at the end of A-4 that we used to escape the erupting volcano. Turning this in to the nobles they determined we were the most capable of defeating that menace. Since we were approaching name-level, successful completion would grant us the land to build our keep, tower, etc. Failure would result in banishment and loss of title.
I would not "dumb down" the illusions, secret doors or any of that. By the time my players had reached 8-10th level they should KNOW to look for those things. I always tell my players that the solution is found in your imagination, not on your character sheet. If they miss it, they have to backtrack and look for what they missed. At that level spellcasters can easily overcome such simple things.
When I went through this as a player we were not quite at the right combination of level/party size recommended, so the DM had us make an error translating the human skin scroll and we accidentally transported to the middle of a jungle somewhere (Jurassic Park had just come out, so we went on a dinosaur hunt) where we had to make it to a coastline and try to get back. We were able to gain some xp, then found a ruined temple that had a teleport without error scroll in the treasure. That got us back to where we had lost our way and we continued on.
I always worry the players will never find the illusions, but you do make a good point! I always feel like I need to tailor these things to the expertise of the players at the table.
"By the time my players had reached 8-10th level they should KNOW to look for those things. I always tell my players that the solution is found in your imagination, not on your character sheet. If they miss it, they have to backtrack and look for what they missed. At that level spellcasters can easily overcome such simple things."
The side trip to the jungle sounds fun! Was it the Amedio Jungle in Greyhawk or a homebrew world?
@@Classic_DM It was actually the Chult supplement, but we put it in the Amedio, in a large sunken valley. The whole series was just a blast. We started with ToEE and made it as far as D3 before it got too hard to get everyone together anymore. We didn't give xp for gold, so it kept our levels down. I have so many great stories of profound character decisions and very very bad choices. Looking back, there was even a bit of difference between the players who started in B/E and AD&D compared to those who had started in 2e. The learning curve was pretty steep for them, but the DM made sure they had an opportunity to learn and then to use what they had learned. If they failed to use it they often ended up rolling up new characters.
All that aside, one of my favorites has always been Dwellers of the Forbidden City. When I ran that I used almost all of the hooks and suggestions at the end of the adventure. We were there long past the listed level limit by the time it was all said and done. A really deep dive on that adventure would be nice.
It was a backhanded slap at Arneson, Gygax dropped a letter to avoid legal issues. When you read how Nosnra is described you'll know just how deep the rift between those 2 got when GG went full AD&D and cut Arneson out. Made for colorful character though!
@@hallacar I never agreed with xp for gold. Seemed so unrelated! Sounds like you guys had an awesome game.
I have a copy of Dwellers, but never go to play or DM the thing! Never forget seeing that Erol Otus bullfrog. I hate frogs. They can all die! The little gnome dude nuking away in his smurf hat is a great contrast!
I'd feel like a FAKER if I talked about a module I never played AND DM'd. Would you guys find it cool for me to do a breakdown as a designer for fun?
@@Snoil Sad times indeed. I had no idea it was that narky!
I always assumed that the infinity chain was put around the waists of the travelers.
That could be the intent! At the end of G1 on page 8 it says,
"...a chain of weird black metal,"
Then in the next sentence, "The instructions show that the chain is a magical device which is to be looped in a figure 8. Thus shaped, it will transport up to 6 persons in each circle of the figure 8 to the Glacial Rift if one of their number holds the map."
I always assumed that in order for each part to form a circle, the players would lay it down on the ground and then step inside. I had a tough time imagining 6 players trying to hold the chain around their waist without it dropping of flopping about. If 6 players stood inside each circle formed by the 8 it's probably Drow war patrol or a single Frost Giant.
The good thing and perhaps the most wonderful about these classic modules is as DM's we get to modify and tailor to fit the story and adventure for our players!
I always picture the Star Trek the original series transporter room in my mind-- "Energize!"
One of the few things that has proven problematic as I translate the original - including look, feel, and count - of the original into 5e, is that giants have changed in size. In AD&D, they occupied a 10' space, and the new 5th edition giants are 15' spacing. This has proven... difficult with the grids provided because doors, rooms, and other areas are no longer sized for their monstrous occupants, even in the Tales from the Yawning Portal version. (which is weird, why do these 15' wide nerds have only 10' wide doors! I do wish that there was a grided version with the concept of them being 15' somewhere out there.
Changing their size sounds like a dumb idea, but then again WotC act weird when it comes to classic TSR content. Imagine modern day publishers making Hobbits 6 feet tall and Nazgul wear white?