rpm should have been you most important factor . If it was the same then no gearing would be considered as a part of the equation. The testing would have eliminated everything other than the engine itself.
This size i4 is very extremely difficult to make irl due to balance issues. Would likely require balance shafts just to stay together Likely the reason the v8 is better in this is the same reason a modern electric impact is better than an air impact. More hits per second even if they're weaker, or smoother, more even power delivery
The funniest “extreme displacement” engine that I’ve made was a 1.6L V16 quad turbo. It wanted to rev well past the 12,000 RPM redline, given the parts were rated to ~30k RPM. I was barely able to get the turbos to spool, but it ended up having between 800-1000HP above 9k RPM. It’s in a rear-engined swapped hatchback turned Pike Peak racer. The whole car weighs something like 1300 lbs.
My favorite creation is a similar 1.4L single turbo V10 making 1900 HP and revving to 11k RPM. It only weighs 280lbs so I slapped it into the lightest body with the widest tires in the game and it's easily the most insane track car I've seen
The reason that the top speeds were different is because the rpm limits were different. The i4 had a lower limit, making it the slower engine. It matters more when you're using the same gearing ratios, like you did here.
@@automotivefluxalso because the I4 have 500hp at the very top end rpm, and before u reach that rpm or just reach that rpm, the gear change and the rpm drop again so it basically drive in about 470hp *sorry if my english bad
One of the things that tends to get lost in the noise is Parasitic Drag inside the engine itself. So the V8 has 86mm bores on all its cylinders. Going with modern conventional piston ring design, that's 3 sets of rings per piston: 2 compression rings, and one oil control ring assembly, each with ~ 270mm circumference, and we're assuming 1.5mm, 1.5mm, 3.0mm thickness respectively, giving a total friction surface are per piston of 1,620mm^2 per piston ring package, of which there are 8 (total of 12,960mm^2). Then there are the additional rod bearings to worry about. If we base our engine on K20 dimensions, the rod bearings are ~16mm wide per bearing, and have a circumference of 51mm, then each bearing has a friction surface area of 2,564mm^2, giving a total of 20,508mm^2 friction surface area. The inline 4: bore of ~108mm, so same math applies. Total piston ring friction surface area per piston (given the same 1.5, 1.5, 3.0mm ring package) is 2,035mm^2, giving an overall total of 8,140mm^2 (4,820mm^2 less than the V8, or ~37%) As far as the rod bearing is concerned, we'll keep it realistic with the increase in displacement per cylinder, so our new dimensions *could* be 25mm wide and 59mm diameter (based on big-block chevy dimensions). That equals 4,634mm^2 per rod, giving us a net total of 18,535mm^2 friction area for the rod bearings. Net total friction surface area: V8: 33,468mm^2 I4: 26,675mm^2, a 20.3% reduction. I'm not sure if Automation takes that into consideration during its simulations, but those frictional losses do have observable real-world effects.
Stroke is where torque is created, which is why the i4 has more torque. If something can rev faster at the same power rating as something else, it will be faster. The v8 has less inertia (more smaller moving parts instead of fewer beefy parts), so it is faster in the drag race. Torque is ultimately what gives you efficiency and power - but the speed that power is delivered at is more to do with other factors.
Ultimately what I’ve learned after playing with automation and looking at real life motors Is that 4 liters is 4 liters, displacement all things being equal is what roughly determines your raw torque output. What really makes the difference is engine balance and RPM limit. The main benefit of more cylinders at the same displacement is either less stroke (lower piston speeds) or swapping to a layout with better balance (inline 6) Torque(ftlbs) x rpm / 5252= HP. So more rpm is better. The more real world challenge for you is 2L v6 vs i4. Japan has/had? A tax bracket for under 2L, so Mazda made a 2L v6 that revs to like 8-9k rpm. But 2L is a square 86x86 for an i4 so that would be a fun challenge IMO to see if you could benefit from the 2 extra cylinders.
adding more cylinders decreases the time between power strokes, allows a more favorable valve size to diameter, and also doesn't require flame expansion to cover such a large distance. it's why v12s make really good power per cubic inch despite being relatively small. I know hp is just torque x rpm ÷5252, but the airflow and rotating resistance will determine how far out torque can be maintained
Loving the vs "series" your doing. The whole reason the v8 was quicker has to do with the torque curve. The v8s torque came on lower in the rpms and was a bit more linear. The i4s came on at higher rpm and even thin it had a weird swing to it. Gearing could have equalized it but that isnt the point of your awesome videos. Keep it up! These are lot of fun.
It would be pretty much equal but the larger bore and stroke made it hard for the I4 to rev as high and since you had the max hp at redline it had 2 things working against it. #1 it had to shift into a higher gear first, and cars just accelerate slower in higher gears. #2 the engine spent significantly less time near the 500hp point in the revs than the V8 Talking about turbo and torque. A turbo engine will make significantly more torque in the midrange than an NA engine. Rule of thumb is if the boost is set at 14.7psi/1bar it will make the torque of a NA engine 2x its size and at a relatively low rpm so that inflates the numbers too. My real car made 291 lb/ft of torque out of a 2L I4 at 18psi while a stock 2003 or so big block 454 (7.4L) chevy avalanche made 360 lb/ft right after me Inline engines typically make more torque but lower hp than a V engine if everything else would be equal. Smaller cylinders typically are more fuel efficient and higher reving than larger bore engines. That pretty much explains 80s and 90s hondas😂 You happened to pick what is typically considered the ideal bore and stroke for the V8😂 86mm square. Compare to the bore and stroke of the 4G64 and k20 engines
Aye, thanks for making this and eliminating the displacement variable, the v8 had such a nice power curve meanwhile the inline 4 had such a wonky power curve lol
@30:45 the gearing is not the same, the top speed you selected is. Higher RPM = Shorter final drive/gearing for the same top speed. Shorter gearing = more power to the wheel. It was obvious the v8 was going to win just from that fact alone.
The v8 is always going to be smoother. The v8 puts the power down twice as much. I mean you have 8 power strokes for every 2 revolutions of the crank. Only 4 on the I4. Even with the cylinders being half the size you get a power stoke in less crank rotation making a more complete power curve. This is why electric vehicles are so fast. They just give you 100% power all the time with no gears.
Semi trucks run hugh i6 engines because they are insanely reliable and super simple to maintain. This makes them perfect for long-term use and abuse in long hall and long periods between servicing. The more you know 😊
pretty sure the weight difference had a good role in this! still nice test, i have not played automation in a long while nor BeamNG drive. (had no space to update.)
Great fun! Was there any major difference in fuel efficiency? The other thing that could be a blast would be to take each of those engines as they are and put them into the smallest and lightest 2 door car body they will fit. Your basic sport car with truck engine. Something with (maybe) mid engine, AWD, and proper aero. All CF frame and body panels.
What count is the area under the horsepower curve within the range of rpms used. Since the I4 made its 500hp at the peak rpm, the average power must have been lower than the V8. Also your top speed was lowered because your rpms were lower. You did in fact have different gearing to reach the same top speed, but it was the right thing to do for a fair comparison
Inline 4 engines have bad secondary balancing so they can't rev high unless they are really small. And you needed to change the gearing because the engines have different rev limits and peak torque is at different places. Big trucks use inline 6 because of the balancing being perfect, which results in great reliability.
I would like to see a similar test with the i4 having a cross plane crankshaft. Larger diameter bores and shorter stroke length. I think this will help it rev out more and should develop more horses. If that doesn't work then keep the same idea in mind, drop the total displacement to 2.5l and add a turbo. Get that upto 500 hp and then see if there is any significant difference 😂
around 24 minutes when you talk about cylinders/displacement, ford made a 4.9l 300ci i6 motor, i personally own one and it is a gasser and i can say its an amazingly strong motor, which makes since it was used in everything. just a good example when it comes to this topic
Hey bro just gotta say I love your videos. I'm looking forward to seeing what you post each week and it's always the silver lining to an otherwise dull day
There are cheap usb hsmi capture devices. Just use a hdmi splitter and record with vlc i think thats not a big deal even for a older laptop or something. 🙃 very chill content
I have respect for inline engines, mainly because they are highly efficient when used properly. But even with turbos they are only good at making power at certain rpms even when messing with cam grinds they typically dont like anything under 2k rpm. Either way youre talking about less booms per second than say a v8. Resulting in less horsies and less torquies, all around. This is an interesting take on the no replacement for displacement, which i believe is still king. Sure you can add a turbo to a small engine but you can add a turbo to a big engine too and still make more power. Yea that defeats the whole saying but forced induction all together is just changing the whole game anyway
hmmm. I think we should have leather valve covers. why not get some soft touch materials in the engine bay for improved comfort when you need to work on it
i think it's because the V8 has it's peak power lower in the (total)RPM and runs a little before it needs to shift the i4 barely touches that 500hp point before you have to shift it that and the gearing definitely makes a huge difference
Your gear spacing may have something to do with it. Even with the same top speed the V8 could be faster because it has a higher rev limit and thus shorter gearing.
They have the same hp but The v8 is making its power for a longer duration then the i4. thats why it wins..maybe next time have them have the same redline.
Only a video game could a 4 banger make more torque than a V8. Also, only in a gideo game dors a 4 banger rev lower than a V8. 4 cylinders are gutless and have no balls until they're screaming way high in the rpm's.
timing the car better would help actually looking at the timing maps rather fully advancing and better smoother power curves the curves were really jumpy
Did we not account for the fact your running a higher final drive ratio for the i4 because it revs lower? You leveled out the speed but that puts the i4 at a mechanical disadvantage.
This reminded me to tell you guys maybe your interested maybe your not but i thought id share. Anyways I've got a 1985 ford escort L wagon all original with only 80 thousand miles that im planning on 1uzfe swapping in the future.
The two engines makes the same power but the V8 makes the power twice as fast a little bit of torque was never going let the i4 win maby get a little nudge off the line but thats it.
I think that the higher gear ratio on the i4 override the extra torque it had and after going through the transmission had to fight more to accelerate. I think that's why it was slower in the drag race, but I think revving lower would make it more fuel efficient.
If you're interested in the SimRIg the most recent video for it is here: th-cam.com/video/u7EtS6iIUiA/w-d-xo.html
rpm should have been you most important factor . If it was the same then no gearing would be considered as a part of the equation. The testing would have eliminated everything other than the engine itself.
This size i4 is very extremely difficult to make irl due to balance issues.
Would likely require balance shafts just to stay together
Likely the reason the v8 is better in this is the same reason a modern electric impact is better than an air impact. More hits per second even if they're weaker, or smoother, more even power delivery
do a V8 to I6 and tow test them
what about more extreme> 2 liter v12 versus 2 liter 3cyl
*2 litre V16
@@carltonleboss 100cc 100cyl
@@carltonleboss liter is the American English spelling litre is British English. No correction needed.
@@magicstew45 I'm British lol
@@magicstew45 That wasn't what they were doing. V16 vs V12, read them again.
The funniest “extreme displacement” engine that I’ve made was a 1.6L V16 quad turbo. It wanted to rev well past the 12,000 RPM redline, given the parts were rated to ~30k RPM. I was barely able to get the turbos to spool, but it ended up having between 800-1000HP above 9k RPM. It’s in a rear-engined swapped hatchback turned Pike Peak racer. The whole car weighs something like 1300 lbs.
My favorite creation is a similar 1.4L single turbo V10 making 1900 HP and revving to 11k RPM. It only weighs 280lbs so I slapped it into the lightest body with the widest tires in the game and it's easily the most insane track car I've seen
@@estrxnmine is a 1l i5 ~550hp in a 520kg car with 1200kg downforce 😅 2,23g at 200km/h but bruu then the boost kicks in the rwd kicks out a bit
This game has no 2-stroke witchcraft.. I proppose a DLC with the "glorious 2-stroke witchcraftery" - official name.
Mine is a similar V16 car but I put it in an originally electric Chinese micro car and turned it into the dumbest rally car ever.
@@TheLtVossmines about a 7 maybe a 6 if it’s cold
The reason that the top speeds were different is because the rpm limits were different. The i4 had a lower limit, making it the slower engine. It matters more when you're using the same gearing ratios, like you did here.
Good point, completely missed that while building
@@automotivefluxalso because the I4 have 500hp at the very top end rpm, and before u reach that rpm or just reach that rpm, the gear change and the rpm drop again
so it basically drive in about 470hp
*sorry if my english bad
Horspower is directly related to rpm. Since then in-line 4 had a bigger stroke due to the limited space, it can spin as fast, it is more torquey tho.
@@2seepyeah with twice the displacement and the huge increase in rotating mass per cylinder it was never going to rev high with that long of a stroke
One of the things that tends to get lost in the noise is Parasitic Drag inside the engine itself.
So the V8 has 86mm bores on all its cylinders. Going with modern conventional piston ring design, that's 3 sets of rings per piston: 2 compression rings, and one oil control ring assembly, each with ~ 270mm circumference, and we're assuming 1.5mm, 1.5mm, 3.0mm thickness respectively, giving a total friction surface are per piston of 1,620mm^2 per piston ring package, of which there are 8 (total of 12,960mm^2). Then there are the additional rod bearings to worry about. If we base our engine on K20 dimensions, the rod bearings are ~16mm wide per bearing, and have a circumference of 51mm, then each bearing has a friction surface area of 2,564mm^2, giving a total of 20,508mm^2 friction surface area.
The inline 4: bore of ~108mm, so same math applies. Total piston ring friction surface area per piston (given the same 1.5, 1.5, 3.0mm ring package) is 2,035mm^2, giving an overall total of 8,140mm^2 (4,820mm^2 less than the V8, or ~37%)
As far as the rod bearing is concerned, we'll keep it realistic with the increase in displacement per cylinder, so our new dimensions *could* be 25mm wide and 59mm diameter (based on big-block chevy dimensions). That equals 4,634mm^2 per rod, giving us a net total of 18,535mm^2 friction area for the rod bearings.
Net total friction surface area:
V8: 33,468mm^2
I4: 26,675mm^2, a 20.3% reduction.
I'm not sure if Automation takes that into consideration during its simulations, but those frictional losses do have observable real-world effects.
Stroke is where torque is created, which is why the i4 has more torque.
If something can rev faster at the same power rating as something else, it will be faster. The v8 has less inertia (more smaller moving parts instead of fewer beefy parts), so it is faster in the drag race. Torque is ultimately what gives you efficiency and power - but the speed that power is delivered at is more to do with other factors.
Ultimately what I’ve learned after playing with automation and looking at real life motors
Is that 4 liters is 4 liters, displacement all things being equal is what roughly determines your raw torque output.
What really makes the difference is engine balance and RPM limit.
The main benefit of more cylinders at the same displacement is either less stroke (lower piston speeds) or swapping to a layout with better balance (inline 6)
Torque(ftlbs) x rpm / 5252= HP. So more rpm is better. The more real world challenge for you is 2L v6 vs i4.
Japan has/had? A tax bracket for under 2L, so Mazda made a 2L v6 that revs to like 8-9k rpm.
But 2L is a square 86x86 for an i4 so that would be a fun challenge IMO to see if you could benefit from the 2 extra cylinders.
adding more cylinders decreases the time between power strokes, allows a more favorable valve size to diameter, and also doesn't require flame expansion to cover such a large distance. it's why v12s make really good power per cubic inch despite being relatively small. I know hp is just torque x rpm ÷5252, but the airflow and rotating resistance will determine how far out torque can be maintained
You should try a modular engine comparison, like a 2L I4 vs a 3L V6/I6 Vs a 4L V8
I think comparing I to V engines with all other stats would be interesting to see if there is any difference. I6vsV6 and I8vsV8
I find it funny you broke physics with the I4 bc the torque curve didn't cross the hp curve at 5252 rpm. At least it currently is at 15:24
Loving the vs "series" your doing. The whole reason the v8 was quicker has to do with the torque curve. The v8s torque came on lower in the rpms and was a bit more linear. The i4s came on at higher rpm and even thin it had a weird swing to it. Gearing could have equalized it but that isnt the point of your awesome videos. Keep it up! These are lot of fun.
It would be pretty much equal but the larger bore and stroke made it hard for the I4 to rev as high and since you had the max hp at redline it had 2 things working against it.
#1 it had to shift into a higher gear first, and cars just accelerate slower in higher gears.
#2 the engine spent significantly less time near the 500hp point in the revs than the V8
Talking about turbo and torque. A turbo engine will make significantly more torque in the midrange than an NA engine. Rule of thumb is if the boost is set at 14.7psi/1bar it will make the torque of a NA engine 2x its size and at a relatively low rpm so that inflates the numbers too.
My real car made 291 lb/ft of torque out of a 2L I4 at 18psi while a stock 2003 or so big block 454 (7.4L) chevy avalanche made 360 lb/ft right after me
Inline engines typically make more torque but lower hp than a V engine if everything else would be equal.
Smaller cylinders typically are more fuel efficient and higher reving than larger bore engines. That pretty much explains 80s and 90s hondas😂
You happened to pick what is typically considered the ideal bore and stroke for the V8😂 86mm square. Compare to the bore and stroke of the 4G64 and k20 engines
Aye, thanks for making this and eliminating the displacement variable, the v8 had such a nice power curve meanwhile the inline 4 had such a wonky power curve lol
@30:45 the gearing is not the same, the top speed you selected is.
Higher RPM = Shorter final drive/gearing for the same top speed.
Shorter gearing = more power to the wheel.
It was obvious the v8 was going to win just from that fact alone.
The v8 is always going to be smoother. The v8 puts the power down twice as much. I mean you have 8 power strokes for every 2 revolutions of the crank. Only 4 on the I4. Even with the cylinders being half the size you get a power stoke in less crank rotation making a more complete power curve. This is why electric vehicles are so fast. They just give you 100% power all the time with no gears.
4 liter I4? That thing is gonna be ROUGH.
it want to disintegrate
Semi trucks run hugh i6 engines because they are insanely reliable and super simple to maintain. This makes them perfect for long-term use and abuse in long hall and long periods between servicing. The more you know 😊
pretty sure the weight difference had a good role in this! still nice test, i have not played automation in a long while nor BeamNG drive. (had no space to update.)
I would've been more interested if you did more truck related stuff.
Towing,offroad,payload.
Id hope with all those high quality parts that its reliable. Hell, those manifolds look like a wasp nest
The v8 have a larger area under the power curve. To make this fair you’d have to give the i4 extra gears to keep it in the power band.
Great fun!
Was there any major difference in fuel efficiency?
The other thing that could be a blast would be to take each of those engines as they are and put them into the smallest and lightest 2 door car body they will fit.
Your basic sport car with truck engine. Something with (maybe) mid engine, AWD, and proper aero. All CF frame and body panels.
The tq comes on sooner with the V8. Basically the 4 banger falls out of powerband every time it shifts. Pretty expected. But very cool content.
Should've included a 4.0l I6 just to round it out
What count is the area under the horsepower curve within the range of rpms used. Since the I4 made its 500hp at the peak rpm, the average power must have been lower than the V8. Also your top speed was lowered because your rpms were lower. You did in fact have different gearing to reach the same top speed, but it was the right thing to do for a fair comparison
Inline 4 engines have bad secondary balancing so they can't rev high unless they are really small.
And you needed to change the gearing because the engines have different rev limits and peak torque is at different places.
Big trucks use inline 6 because of the balancing being perfect, which results in great reliability.
I would like to see a similar test with the i4 having a cross plane crankshaft.
Larger diameter bores and shorter stroke length.
I think this will help it rev out more and should develop more horses.
If that doesn't work then keep the same idea in mind, drop the total displacement to 2.5l and add a turbo.
Get that upto 500 hp and then see if there is any significant difference 😂
around 24 minutes when you talk about cylinders/displacement, ford made a 4.9l 300ci i6 motor, i personally own one and it is a gasser and i can say its an amazingly strong motor, which makes since it was used in everything. just a good example when it comes to this topic
Hey bro just gotta say I love your videos. I'm looking forward to seeing what you post each week and it's always the silver lining to an otherwise dull day
The 4 cylinder has more torque because it has more rotational mass per cylinder. Physics 101 my friend.
There are cheap usb hsmi capture devices. Just use a hdmi splitter and record with vlc i think thats not a big deal even for a older laptop or something. 🙃 very chill content
"and then.... yeah let's crash into a pole" HAHAH
I have respect for inline engines, mainly because they are highly efficient when used properly. But even with turbos they are only good at making power at certain rpms even when messing with cam grinds they typically dont like anything under 2k rpm. Either way youre talking about less booms per second than say a v8. Resulting in less horsies and less torquies, all around. This is an interesting take on the no replacement for displacement, which i believe is still king. Sure you can add a turbo to a small engine but you can add a turbo to a big engine too and still make more power. Yea that defeats the whole saying but forced induction all together is just changing the whole game anyway
the inline 4 is insane it doesnt meet the 5250 torque and hp meet so thats an insane build
24:08
and there are even diesel V12 in Tatra trucks
hmmm. I think we should have leather valve covers. why not get some soft touch materials in the engine bay for improved comfort when you need to work on it
Peak power mate , i4 have peak power on rev limit . That mean it never use full500hp
i think it's because the V8 has it's peak power lower in the (total)RPM and runs a little before it needs to shift
the i4 barely touches that 500hp point before you have to shift it
that and the gearing definitely makes a huge difference
the s in the gear selection stands for sequential :>
ill never stop watching these lol
Your gear spacing may have something to do with it. Even with the same top speed the V8 could be faster because it has a higher rev limit and thus shorter gearing.
next time tweak with the bore and stroke more to try and get the rpm limits closer between the 2 engines, it should greatly simplify the comparison.
What about 2 liter v8 vs 4 liter i4
They have the same hp but The v8 is making its power for a longer duration then the i4. thats why it wins..maybe next time have them have the same redline.
Only a video game could a 4 banger make more torque than a V8. Also, only in a gideo game dors a 4 banger rev lower than a V8.
4 cylinders are gutless and have no balls until they're screaming way high in the rpm's.
Love your content, always such relaxing to watch, greetings from Italy❤
timing the car better would help actually looking at the timing maps rather fully advancing and better smoother power curves the curves were really jumpy
4.0l V8 (1UZ) and 4.1l I4 (15B-FTE) from the Toyota Megacruiser lol
Did we not account for the fact your running a higher final drive ratio for the i4 because it revs lower? You leveled out the speed but that puts the i4 at a mechanical disadvantage.
Bro forgot there ain’t no replacement for displacement it’s just physics
do turbo diesel versions of these and have a pull test
It's the gearing... with less rpm you need to lower the gearing in the I-4.
This reminded me to tell you guys maybe your interested maybe your not but i thought id share. Anyways I've got a 1985 ford escort L wagon all original with only 80 thousand miles that im planning on 1uzfe swapping in the future.
Maybe you should do i6 vs v6 next time
You say "500hp work truck" like thats not commonplace.
Heck, my 9 year old pickup makes 440whp 😏
0:49 them tires aint very work truck lol
The peak power on the v8 has bigger usuable range. Your barely getting max hp out of the i4 with it being at redline.
bruh 4 / 8 = 0.5 and btw 0.5L per cylinder is like a perfect ammoung so yeah, you can watch a video or two about it
More cylinders=More low end torque
With less engine RPM you need taller gearing to achieve the same speed. The four cylinder should have a lower top speed with the same gearing.
The two engines makes the same power but the V8 makes the power twice as fast a little bit of torque was never going let the i4 win maby get a little nudge off the line but thats it.
Drag race shouldve been low at start then high.
please do inline six vs v6
What is this game called
make a high horsepower 1.6L v16 or 1.2L v12
How the fuck a 4cyl 4L making 500 hp!!!
Is that a Logitech g920 steering wheel? I have one
The V8 is ligter because it needs less balance.
Whats yhe name of the game?
no tow test ?/
Why not have chatGPT design an engine?
500hp na vs turbo
Pushrod bro it’s way more interesting
V8 vs W8
Bro read a bit about for the engines some formulas and thinks and understand this sliders (this is not hate just advise)
Are there gore mods for Beamng? I want pools of blood to spew out of the pancake of a vehicle I sent into a wall at 300 mph.
W16 vs v16
I think that the higher gear ratio on the i4 override the extra torque it had and after going through the transmission had to fight more to accelerate. I think that's why it was slower in the drag race, but I think revving lower would make it more fuel efficient.
Rover v8 vs a tractor engine?
No difference
@@automotiveflux I'm talking about a rover v8 is about 3.9 while the largest 4 cylinder in a tractor I know is 4.4L. I ought to finish the video.
First like?????????? Why only now guys.....
We are not at the end! To the love of god trump needs to be president and he will put an end to EV vehicles