2 of you have pointed it out, and I wanted to clear up the confusion. At around the 8 minute mark I use a graphic from Subaru Canada that talks about “torque converter lock up”. I meant to refer to “lock up” in a sense where the torq converter doesn’t stall. My mistake was using the graphic and referring to what was said on Subaru Canada’s website. What would be a better term for what many of try to describe? Speed stall? Low stall? Expert feedback would be appreciated 😃
So there are 2 things at play. Lockup and stall. Stall is the RPM of the engine when all mechanical power is being transmitted by the fluid. I.e. the input side is pushing against the output side with maximum effect. In subaru's Its 2000-2200 roughly. Thats the speed the engine is spinning when the car stops climbing. Lockup is a fuel saving feature where there is a clutch in the torque converter that bypasses the turbine and impeller and transmits torque directly like a manual transmission. This allows for engine braking, more responsive throttle, and less pumping losses from the torque converter. Lockup happens when the input and output sides of the TC are in sync. It sounds like the Subaru would try to partially lock at 9kph, and fully lock later. This would only happen under very light loads like coasting through a neighborhood. You want the torque converter to lock to reduce transmission temps, but you want it UNLOCKED for slow speed off-roading because the difference between input and output on the TC is a kind of gear reduction. In Subaru I read its 2.07:1. Meaning that there is an effective "gear" reduction of 2.07:1 before the CVT. so the 12.7:1 crawl is only the mechanical ratio of the transmission, but the effective ratio is 26.29:1. This effective ratio is generally ignored because it applies to all automatic transmission vehicles more or less the same. The ratio is generally around 2:1. You'll notice manual off-roaders have way more crawl ratio than their auto equiv. for this reason. They don't have that reduction. With the TC locked you get efficient, cool, direct torque transfer but you lose gear reduction. TLDR: Stall is the max engine speed with the vehicle not moving. Lockup is when a physical link is made between engine and transmission bypassing the torque converter.
I have 2021 Sport. it is better when it on X mode snow& send the second Xmode, from standing on elevation. because there no T.C. operating Xmode with T.C it's stole. cooler gearbox is another very importing issue to lower temperature .
You said it correctly. Those speeds you quoted are where the lockup clutch(es) begins to activate. They're irrelevant to TC stall speed. Stall speed is the point at which power (NOT torque; power) starts (or stops) being transmitted to the output side of the TC. Or, to say it another way, the maximum engine rpm at which there is no movement of the TC output shaft (or, at which it just begins). What I think you DID miss, though, is the implication of the fact both conventional A/Ts and CVTs use torque converters. The form of the transmission that's down-stream of the TC (a CVT or a conventional A/T, in this comparison) has essentially nothing to do with TC stall speed. Accordingly, then, it is the TC itself, along with overall gear ratio, which prevents one vehicle being able to climb those rocks vs not. TC stall speed is a function of engine output, vehicle weight, and overall gearing in addition to TC internal design. Increasing TC stall would help climbing enormously, because it would allow the engine to develop more power at stall. It would have the additional effects of heating the ATF further and faster, though, as well as reducing mpg and likely causing customer dissatisfaction because of the engine running faster before their vehicle starts moving from a stoplight, etc. I don't believe this issue is a CVT problem. It's a problem of too-low engine output at low rpm, combined with too-high overall gear ratio (maybe TC design, too), vs the vehicle's weight.
I have a 2022 Forester wilderness. I do not go off roading for sport but more so to access trails in the backcountry in British Columbia, Canada. The logging roads here are quite rough, steep, with lots of cross ditches. I must say that I'm extremely happy with it's performance and probably have not even come close to pushing it to the limit. I find myself in areas with a lot of 4runners and larger 4x4 trucks. I'm happy.. but that said I'm not trying to drive over boulder 😂
Hey! I live in the lower mainland and just bought a 24 Crosstrek and was wondering if you’ve done the road up to Cheam/Lady peaks and if you think the Crosstrek could handle it.
@@clustertoo hey! Congrats on the purchase! I haven't been up to that area personally and have heard that road is pretty rough - I honestly don't think traction will be an issue but maybe ground clearance? Hard to say. I've gone up some pretty rough roads with pretty big wash outs like Brandywine upper lot, Tricouni and the road leading to Mount Garibaldi and my Forester handled spectacularly. Tricouni in particular most people say you need high clearance and 4wd - but had no issues doing it with the exception of one wash out and needed to use my traction boards for extra ground clearance. I imagine the cross trek will have similar performance? Hope this helps.
A 2002 Forester is compact, roomy, has good ground clearance, and is easy to work on. Put in quality head gaskets and you're good to go anywhere in North America.
@@darianlow4296 From everything I've read, the road to Cheam is a little worse than the road to Branywine upper lot, but take that with a grain of salt as I haven't been on that road to the upper lot, and it's been a number of years since I drove the road to Cheam (in a Geo Tracker).
I appreciate everything you say about not starting motion on a hill. I have lived in one of the rock crawling capitols of the world my whole life, and even with automatic Trans buggies, a complete stop has nothing to offer in terms of conquering obstacles. Identify the best line for your vehicle, and just keep moving with MINIMUM FORCE NECESSARY is how I was taught. Learning to drive offroad on manual transmission vehicles is probably the best tool any offroader can have in their belt. It teaches that discernment of how much juice is needed real quick. If you're scared to break, or you really want to crawl, you're either on the wrong trail or in the wrong rig 🫡
The offroad capability of any vehicle is inversely related to how much you care about said vehicle. Joking aside, even though my area doesn't have a lot of rock crawling challenges, it's mostly smooth trails tainted by occasional tree roots, mud, and small rocks. I was taught the same, keep enough momentum going to make it through, but not enough to break anything catastrophic.
The torque converter should not lock up at low speeds to provide its intended function: to increase the wheel torque when the wheels barely spin, while making the engine RPM rise to produce more torque. In higher speeds, it locks up to provide better fuel economy. The stall mid climb has to do with 2 things: 1. Anti wheel slip prevention. To test if this is the reason, "Deep snow and mud" mode can be used. 2. CVT slip prevention. Subaru limits the engine torque to prevent damage to the CVT, especially starting from a dead stop.
It definitely wasn’t anti wheel slip prevention. The engine revs and doesn’t seem to retard itself, just seems like torque converter stall. You seem knowledgeable, do you know how a CVT Subaru protects the transmission? Is something decoupled? The 1st Gen Honda Pilot seems to stall out as well, but I don’t think there’s anything getting protected.
@@JonDZ_Adventuring I think Subarus limit RPM from a standstill, but they also play with the brakes to prevent wheel slip. The latter goes only so far, as brakes could prevent forward movement. The last thing is the AWD clutch, before the rear diff. Most other vehicles don't fully engage it in high revs, to protect the driveline. IMHO, this is exactly what the Pilot's issue was. I am not sure how much this clutch is engaged in Subarus. I think it is more than other vehicles.
@@DavidDLeethe Pilots have a very interesting AWD system. There’s a transfer case that spins the driveshaft full time, then it goes to the twin clutch rear diff that can vary how much its coupled. So the rear diff acts as a center diff and also a rear lsd, but it’s ashamed the crawl ratios are so low in these older models. The newer Subarus with the multi-plate clutch center diff are set 60% front / 40% rear but can send up to 70% front and 50/50 in xmode. I was talking to a buddy of mine and we both believe that most of these car companies put a “quicker to stall” torque converter in their transmissions to protect them. The Brand new 2023 Pilot for example has Hondas new 10 speed. My friend witnessed the transmission stall our going up a 45 degree prolonged climb. His Ridgeline with the German made ZF9 climbed up without hesitation. I personally tried climbing this hill, and with all the weight I have on my vehicle (1200 added lbs.) the wheels started skipping, but no stall. So there you go! I think the ZF9 is an anomaly, especially the variants with a 4.334 ans 4.556 rear diff, and other transmissions made by car manufacturers, Aisin and Jatco, typically set their torque converters to stall early.
@@JonDZ_Adventuring A torque converter is just viscous fluid between two "propellers " (a turbine and impeller). The faster the impeller is spun the stronger the torque on the turbine be. In fact, the input torque is multiplied by the torque converter to the output, when the output is turning slower than the input. So, if the engine is kept below a certain RPM you know what the max torque of the output be (the max is when the turbine & wheels are not turning). If the input was not limited, the rest of the transmission would need to be beefier and/or cooled. The not locking part is not what is stalling anything. When locked, there's no torque multiplying effect. It is only to save gas when traveling at speed. The only way you can limit the effect of the torque converter is by limiting the engine RPM and selecting a less viscous fluid (i.e. require more input RPM for the same output torque).
I have a lifted 2021 crosstrek sport and my friends refer to it as the “swiss army knife of cars” very impressed what this little cross over can do with the CVT. And Xmode abilities make it even better
Wow, really nice video with a lot of information, and real trail experience and data. We need more videos in the space like this. There is a lot going on here. Some of it is crawl ratio, some of it is the widely varyinng CVT Torque Converter stall values (and lockup behavior), Some is the brain of the ECU preventing that Torque converter from overheating when it senses it is being pushed too hard or approaching its stall values, and some of it, as I have made many posts about, is the misunderstood and relatively unspoken torque loss that is inherent in the AWD torque vertoring systems because as soon as you go on something hard or steep, the moment you start to lose traction, you are fighting to some extent against your brakins system, which moves torque around, but also results in torque loss.. Usually it is all 4 of these occurring at once that creates a full stall. I hadn't even considered the torque converter lock up specs. I assumed that the lineartronic CVT would be able to take advantage of the evolution of the stanndard Transmission upgrades thru the years, which have made it more likely that you will be locked, even at low speeds, while under startup loads. This is because it helped MPG, and was just more efficient and less hot. I guess they have their reasons, but the lockup speed is fairly slow for hard obstacles which means that we are using all fluid pressure,, which is fine, but hot, and not sustainable, which is why they have all those nanny smart lockouts so you don't burn up. I want a BURN button. That being said, as I mentioned in my other post on your page the other day, regarding torque vectoring losses and CVT, it is important to learn how to drive your vehicle. If you drive this like it is a Kia Metro, it is not going to work. Use your manual mode and paddle shifters offroad Just remember you are in manual or you may have exessive RPM.s But you can have higher RPM's which may help the converter lockup, and CERTAINLY help ward against this cars inherant desire to upshift too soon the moment you back off the throttle. This is great in town and saves you gas. Offroad, it creates a situation where you are constantly upshifing and downshifting. Keep it in 1st gear over obstacles. Also keep in mind, that when up against a hard obstacle, midhill, or the like, you may FLOOR it and nothing will happen, but keep trying for at least 3 seconds, because the torque vectoring system may just be considering the situation. In my car, I was giving up too easy. When I learned to give it an extra few seconds, I was rewarded by a Rocket launch jump, which frankly is a whole other problem, but it will MOVE you off an obstacle. This may be unique to my Outback Wilderness. It seems stalled, but when I keep it working a second or so longer, it just figures well, none of this other crap worked, let me send the beans. And honestly you don't WANT the beans, you just want controllable movement, but with experience, you can moderate the beans, and it actually works. This is about knowing your rig. Nice writeup and data, I can't imagine the work that went into this video, but please everyone give this a like for the effort. All I can say is that it would be nice to have a NANNY OFF button in the case of the brain trying to save the car. Yeah, people would destroy their rigs. But people that knew what they were doing could get past that hard 5 feet in some cases, and get on with their day. Personally I like the CVT in my modern Subaru. It's the most modern and toughest made, and I know that the CVT is not what causes the "pauses" in my rig, and I know how to avoid the pauses MOST of the time because I know my rig. Granted I haven't done anything SUPER hard, but I've done some pretty difficult stuff where I forced the car to basically stall, and got past those points with various methods. My Outback Wilderness has plenty of power, and we can all concede that the number ONE problem is lack of a low range in many of our AWD rigs. Everything else is just comparing how much less or more that sucks, given certain conditions, driving styles, knowledge, settings, modifications, etc. Databyter
Thanks for the detailed comment Databyter! I actually put this video together this morning, so admittedly I just kind of whipped it up. I focused on making a 10 minute video, because it’s been a week and I hear TH-cam will get angry with me if I don’t provide my content offering. The Imogene pass trip was very eye opening. The results weren’t what I had imagined. The side by side comparison between the SK Forester 2.5 and the Outback 3.6R was eye opening. How is this happening?
@@JonDZ_Adventuring Well, I really appreciated things like the graphic showing the relative crawl ratios of various rigs. That is exactly the kind of hard date that we are all interested put forward in a very easy to understand and compare way. And finding stuff like that to post saves the rest of us a lot of work. I found it very interesting.
Thanks for the great video, this was super informative! I have a 2010 OB with 2.5 liter engine, the CVT hasn't given me any issues so far and I've done some pretty rough roads with some steep hills.(just started doing off roading with it in the last couple months) I just think you learn how to drive it and get momentum when going up steep obstacles.
This is funny as I haul Subarus. Ive never had an issue with any Subaru climbing an inclined ramp from a dead stop. They are my favorite brand to load and I own a 16 Forester. My driveway is pretty steep and have never had an issue. This is all news to me.
@@pavementsailor exactly,if it is rainy or icy the front can slip and they can go up. If the wheels don't slip you will have issues going up steep hills. You will also have issues if the front suddenly gets traction and that will stop you in your tracks. I love Subaru but the new ones do not keep up with the gm era ones.
CVTs will be the best! Once we are able to get reliability down... The ability to stay in optimal RPM range for either performance or fuel economy makes it very useful in normal day driving.
I've had cars with CVT transmissions over the last 15 years and now a 2014 Subaru Outback with 2.5i and a CVT. Like probably 90% of Subaru drivers, I tool around im the suburbs and im glad it will get home on the snow. The CVT is great driving around town, but if I was going rock climbing like you e shown here, I'd find an H6 with a traditional automatic. Basically your average Subaru isnt really designed to climb like that.
@@thomasfx3190 and this year in July (2024) we did just that. 3rd gen, 3.0 H6 LL beam with VTD and the 5EAT with a 14:1 crawl ratio. It did great! We also had a 2nd gen 3.0H6 with a 12:1 crawl ratio 4EAT, but something was wrong. The engine kept misfiring. Not sure if it was a ECU programming thing or something else. There’s no doubt in my mind now, the 3.0 H6 with VTD is the unicorn 🦄 Outback.
I have a Nissan X-trail cvt. And while i am terrified of snapping the xvt chain off road, it doesn't stop me. It does, however, force me to be gentle with the vehicle and transmission. Therefore, im more likely to be able to drive home afterwards.
Had a 2017 Forester shoed with Geolanders and did experience the seeming power loss in deep sand going up a switch back as I had to pull to the inner side of the curve to allow a descending vehicle to pass. It just wouldn’t spin the tires and, as I was told , shut down the power to prevent from cooking the CVT. The solution was to sit a few minutes, let things cool down and pump the gas pedal… let off when power began to bog and then get right back into it. I had other “close calls” on steep trails in AZ but was never left where I could make on my own power. Well the Forester is gone and I now have a 2022 Outback Wilderness that fortunately someone already fitted with a full Primitive Racing skid plate package. No it’s not going a be a Rock Crawler but should take me most anywhere I want to go with relative ease. Thank from a new subscriber.
I own a FXT 2014 with a lot of miles 200K and i replace it with a Forester Wilderness 2023, i don't know the crawl ratio but the differential ratio difference (3,73 vs 4,11) are a very huge upgrade to climb hill and on acceleration. After few good offroad review i decided to continue with Subaru. The FA20DIT and 3,6R has the same transmission and same problem. When the transmission fail the main problem is the selenoid inside CVT loose ability to apply enough pressure to work properly.
I do soft gravel/mud and snow offroading on my outback and it works great. If I want to do rock crawling, I would get a tacoma or wrangler that has locking diffs. The cvt wasnt designed to tackle this kind of angle
C’mon guys, just think of it: CVT + offroad! It is impossible for any automobile manufacturer, except Subaru. Giant kudos to Fuji Heavy Industries for making that kinda stuff at least somehow possible. We witness a true technological miracle and don’t understand that. What car manufacturer can you think of that is not foreign off-road and is equipped with CVT from the factory? Honda CVT? Audi CVT? Nissan CVT? Subaru have already made CVTs decently reliable on-road, now they make it ‘almost capable’ off-road (currently they are in transition from ‘almost capable’ to ‘quite capable’), which is a huge exception. They’ll learn.
Fun video and very informative. I had the opportunity to drive Imogene pass this summer in my stock 4Runner SR5. I remember that rock that you were trying to climb up. I pulled right up to it, stopped, realized I had clearance and went right up it. As an inexperienced off roader, Imogene was a hoot and I was super happy with my stock 2010 4Runner with 175,000 miles and impressed with just how capable it was.
It would be interesting to see what the 3.6 CVT temperature was during these attempts. I've been off-roading with a 3.6 and was surprised many times at the ability of it to muscle up some climbs and even accelerate. Trans temps were below 200^f during these climbs I was impressed with. On a big (long) climb, temps rose above 230^f and I was getting the stall effect after a mid-hill stop/start but was able to coax it up the rest of the way after a small backup and restart, but it seemed like a very different car. This climb was long, but not any more steep or more bumpy than what had already been climbed and had also experienced mid-hill restarts without issue. In fact, I was getting over confident in its ability to climb. I plan to add a decent size transmission cooler then go test more. Outback's have a supplemental cooler but it's tiny.
@@JonDZ_Adventuring Interesting. I need to find a test hill and log all of the engine parameters like timing, spark, fuel....The CVT obviously is not a crawler, but it's behavior seems strange without access to the source code. Figuring out if it's software (for protection) or mechanical limited would be interesting
You make a lot of excellent points here. I think the one time we tried doing some moderate off-road in a CVT equipped 2016 Forester here in Jamaica the biggest limitation for us was throttle control/response. The hills were not super steep and power loss due to altitude wasn't much of an issue since we didn't go over 1000m or 3200ft. What was extremely hard was in the mud you trying to accelerate over an obstacle or get going in slippery circumstances and you put some throttle in, and then not much happens, and then suddenly wheelspin etc. The TRAC control will then cut power, or if you run with it off, things get a little hairy and it's hard to maintain lines. It was just extremely hard to modulate uphill. Not very linear despite the name lol. On the other hand coming back down the same muddy slope X mode saved our skins. There was no way we could do that and keep it on the trail by engine / wheel braking manually. The electronics managed our speed all the way back down
The Outback Wilderness has a 14.3 crawl ratio for 2022 and older. In 2023 and newer, the Outback Wilderness has a crawl ratio of 15.5 because they changed the diff gears. You got lucky!
Great video! I grew up in Western Colorado near where this was filmed. Bought a Subaru 2 months ago and cannot wait to get it out on those mountain roads. I was a manual transmission driver for the last 20 years. Subaru paddles plus S/I modes and X Mode make the CVT easy to live with.
In regards to the Forester climbing the hill you mention at end of clip; it’s probably one that has the early Subaru wagon dual range manual transmission. Apparently there is a newer version of that that is being imported through JDM importers, and I’ve seen some videos were people have put them into newer cars.
Most CVTs I've driven seem to have a fairly high initial gear ratio based on their lack of initial acceleration. I'd guess that there are design limitations that limit the gearing range a CVT can have. In order to ensure fuel economy on the highway they're geared high which means they don't have much torque to the wheels at low speed.
TR690 Gen 2 is a very interesting transmission. They say it is capable of handling much more torque (300+ lbft) than the TR580 (officially rated for 184 lbft) so it technically should ease through this course, which is clearly not the case. Maybe the fact that the TR580 was designed from the ground up might have something to do with it's performance.
Hey I made the video (comment featured in the video). ;-) I'm just lurking here because in around 5 years I plan to buy whatever Wilderness edition or equiv is available for the Outback. I currently have a 2014 F150 with the 3.5L twin turbo and the 6 speed auto with low range. That will be retired and only used for 'truck stuff' like Home Depot runs, but the power and pulling ability of this setup is impressive (also has an electronic rear locker). I don't NEED that type of performance and honestly, I don't know that I'd ever do Imogene Pass...mostly because, my wife would be with me and I'd be retired and I just know, she'd throw a fit if I tried to take her up there (and she'd probably have a heart attack even though I'd find it fun). All I really need is a great AWD system for snow/dirt/light mud and enough pulling power to pull itself up a pretty steep incline. I'd 'like' to hit some forest roads and trails to see things I don't normally see, sort of like you show in that teaser video at the end of this one...but that's about as extreme as I'd get. I'm not interested in rock crawling and generally beating the cr@p out of an expensive car I plan to keep for 10+ years.
The Wilderness trims have a few advantages for more challenging environments. The 4.11 gearing in the rear diff and a transmission cooler will really help a lot if you are going in more difficult areas. No, it's not a Wrangler Rubicon, but it is far more capable than most regular crossover vehicles and a lot of people who own Wranglers rarely leave the road anyway. From watching some off road testing of various crossovers, the Wilderness trim Subaru vehicles perform very well. Many other regular vehicles often have transmission overheating issues on the more challenging courses and/or can't complete the more difficult terrains. Subaru isn't trying to re-invent a Wrangler, they're just making a more capable daily driver. As long as you know that going in, you'll be happy with it.
Having driven a lifted 3.6 Outback Limited off-road a number of times I am very happy I choose a 4x4 with low range. The driving style required by the CVT did not feel safe. I could see how this could get people into trouble off-road especially for less experienced drivers. There is correct tool for each job and any CVT in moderate off-roading is like painting a wall with a toothbrush ✌️
That was a nice side by side comparison of the CVT vs conventional automatic. It was really interesting how Subaru’s CVT has progressed between the older Outback and newer Forester.
Great video comparison, lots of useful technical info. I have a lifted crosstrek I daily and have been very impressed with the CVT while offroad. When I visited Colorado, I was able to go down any trail I encountered. I went down a trail rated for high clearance vehicles with 4Lo with no issues. I also have a lifted 6sp manual outback, which is horrible at climbing hills. I also have an older Lexus GX470, which I have not taken off road yet.
I think the most interesting comparison is between my Forester and Bruceyyyyy's Outback. My Forester made it first try. His Outback never made it up. My crawl ratio is 4.5% better but he has 40% more horsepower and torque! Crawl ratio is more important than horsepower and torque. I feel bad for everyone who bought an Outback Wilderness because it has a crawl ratio of 14.3 . . . . not nearly as good as the Forester Wilderness and Crosstrek Wilderenss that have a crawl ratios of 16.7
It definitely is a compelling comparison. Crawl ratio is so close, that I don’t think that it’s a factor. Your SK forester has the newer TR580 and Bruceyyyyy’s Outback 3.6R has the older TR590HT. If you look up the old literature about the improvements from the TR690 to the TR580, there’s a lot of drivetrain efficiency improvements, less parasitic drivetrain loss. They don’t mention it, but I feel that the TR580 is paired with a better torque converter. Also, the outback wilderness has a 15.5:1 crawl ratio 😉. Out of all the Subies, your SK forester surprised me the most, since you didn’t have the torque locker.
@@JonDZ_Adventuring I just dove into the Outback Wilderness data with a fine toothed comb. . . the Outback Wilderness has a 14.3 crawl ratio for 2022 and older. In 2023 and newer, the Outback Wilderness has a crawl ratio of 15.5 and both of those are inferior to the Forester Wilderness and Crosstrek Wilderenss that have a crawl ratios of 16.7
Agree with everything you said in the video. One thing I think is Subaru purposely programming the torque converter to stall in their HT (high torque?) transmission in their turbo models is to reduce the chance of overheating the CVT due to all the power of the turbo engine. Imagine 250+ lb ft of torque at 2000 rpms vs maybe 100 lb ft torque in their 2.5 NA models at the same engine speed. They dont need to limit the TR580 because it isnt enough power to produce much heat at low RPMs thus allowing the 2.5 models to clear the obstacles without stalling. Couple that along with the fact that oh I dont know CVTs suck! Lol Btw, I met that SJ Forester driver with his 2 dogs about a year ago when we went up that gnarly trail 😉
cvt save some gasoline but lowers your engine s power, while the vvt does help you and take you off the most dificult situations. cvt its kind of like not made for offroads. they should let us choose between cvt and vvt automatic transmisions.
i had a bone stock crosstrek with the cvt, turning off traction control and shifting the transmission manually helped me get over minor obstacles...although i never got it to 10,000 ft. great video.
Nice explanation. I’m not a Subi owner but may be a possibility if/when they get the transmission better sorted for off-road. I’ve rented as couple Outback’s and wheeled them around Sedona, and they’ve done quite well, but the issue you bring up occurred with both on certain obstacles. My rings have all been some version of a Land Cruiser or GX or 4runner, so a 4WD with a low range. As many may know two foot driving a slush box transmission in 4LO affords a lot of control and torque amplification. If/when Subaru can build or program their transmission to allow the style of driving, along with a transfer case with a low range (old GL’s) they will have a vehicle that’ll be a force to recon with, and a potential new buyer here.
I have a 2023 crosstrek outdoor with their newest cvt and the dual x mode actually does a really good job of offering options of how the centre diff and tcs work together.
Hey John, my Jeep Grand Cherokee Trailhawk doesn’t have any problems with stalling out and it has way more capability than I’ve needed so far. I noticed it wasn’t included on the graph that you posted in the video. I drug my trailer up some pretty gnarly trails and tracks in the Oregon coast and the cascade ranges with the Jeep Grand Cherokee WK2.
Hahhahaha! It intentionally wasn’t on the graph because it has a 56:1 crawl ratio and would skew the screen and make everything look tiny 🤣🤣🤣. That thing is a beast! The most capable small unibody CUV with impressive tech!
Another thing that gives the SK an advantage over the outback are the wheels. Noticed hes running RPF1s which are probably a ton lighter than those Methods on the outback. Weight is super important as well
I've been off road in my 2019 3.6R and I've been able to stop on very steep dirt and some what rocky inclines like pretty much 45 degrees up from a flat horizontal. I'm doing this with a stock vehicle running on Toyo AT3s. What I've found is when I flip on X-Mode which I would use for snow and other slick stuff, it seems as if the power level is reduced as to reduce the occurrence of wheel spin which then gets handled by the brake systems I believe. This power reduction then ends up hindering the vehicle ability to climb a steep grade but I believe places less demand on the braking system which is tasked with clamping down on any wheel that should happen to lose traction and start spinning which prevent torque from escaping. This led me to trying experiments with climbing steep uneven grades with X-Mode turned on and off for comparison and I've found that with X-Mode off, there's definitely more power available to climb with but that was also accompanied by more occurances of momentary wheel spins which are immediately brought under control by the braking system. The down hill control system which allows the vehicle to decelerate to a controlled crawl going down a steep hill without the need to apply manual breaking force is absolutely phenomenal and amazing and confidence inspiring. I'd just say if your going to do alot of off roading, that you make sure you got good brake pads with plenty of meat on them as they play a vital role in the performance capabilities and proper functioning of the drive system while off roading.
I would love to see the four cylinder Silverado try some of these. GM has taken out the low range for cost savings. I believe the crawl ratio is around 17-18:1 without low range. But with all that low end torque I would love to see how it would fair.
I think the Forester Wilderness with N/A 2.5 and the CVT it’s paired to with the lower final ratio and extra transmission cooler are probably as good of an off-roader as a CVT will get. I am admittedly biased as a 23 Forester Wilderness owner, but I am also under no illusions it’s as capable as true 4x4s. However, as a daily driver, it is surprisingly capable off road, and Subaru did a great job overall for what they’re working with.
I think the feasible way of partially avoiding the CVT hate (don't get me wrong i hate most of the cvts) is to put one mechanical lowering gear (Toyota had such gearbox in one of their models), and also put at least one torsen diff (they could source it from toyota if they are so inclined to save cost on manufacturing, since the GR models like Corolla and Yaris have it) ,other idea is , since they are going the EV route these days, they could take the rav 4 prime gearbox since, the geniuses from Toyota eliminated the weakest link- the chain, they replaced it with two electrical motors that simulated whatever gear you want and with great simplicity thus reliability...
I've been driving a European Forester 2.0 for six years and it's never let me down on steep hills or rough terrain. The only minor issue I've encountered is an occasional temperature warning.
After watching the entire video I think the CVT is very Miss understood and blamed for problems common to most automatics. First is torque converter stall. Unless you have a dual clutch you’re going to have torque converter stall. If any torque converter were able to fully lock up at 0mph you would have engine stall instead. Another issue is the traction control. Since the pilot was spinning tires traction was the issue. Traction control would be cutting power in that situation so the tires wouldn’t spin. This is often mistaken for torque converter stall. Gear ratios are the most important thing for any transmission when trying to climb obstacles. A CVT with similar final drive ratio would be as if not more capable due to infinite ratios available. I have a Crosstrek and actually like the CVT. It’s taken me places I never thought I would go in the Subaru. I also have a Duramax that sits at home more often than I expected just because of how capable and the Crosstrek is.
The old Manual Transfer Case with Low Range is gone & unfortunately, the amount of people who go Off Road like this in modern cars is a very minor percentage.
My Outback Wilderness has been great on road, sand, ice/snow, and logging roads. But that said, it isn't made for wheeling where 4WD+4LO is needed. It gets hate for having shortcomings in territories where 4runners and more capable trucks hang. Its like complaining those trucks get bad MPG. They're made for greater capability, whereas CVTs really shine in light offroad WHILE being able to get 25-30 MPG. Its for the middle ground where you need more capability than what cars can provide but dont need a truck, and want decent MPG.
This winter, my wife's 2020, new to us, CVT Outback Premium was getting 3 mpg less than my 18 Forester 6MT. Now, it's been the first month and a half of ownership, and it was subzero temps for those two weeks, but....if the God's-gift-to-economy CVT was getting 15% less MPG than my manual..........😅
The Forester also has a lower axle ratio (meaning a better crawl ratio) than the Outback. That coupled with the Forester being a few hundred pounds lighter may have helped it climb that obstacle just as much as the newer model transmission. The TR690 is a stronger transmission than the newer, more commonly used TR580 as well.
@@oldjohnnyrude8404 we are talking 12.7:1 in the H6 Outback vs. 13.3:1 in the Forester. That’s hardly any difference. The point made in this video is that you can say the TR690 / TR690HT is a “stronger” transmission, but there’s so many examples of it hitting speed stall. It’s the older more inefficient design as well.
Are those automatic transmission Subarus staying in low on the shifter, that's one thing I've noticed with my brother's Forester if he leaves it and low on the shifter and x-mode it's a completely different car
I was in "low" and x-mode enabled when I climbed the rock in one shot. But "low" on the shifter is kind of a relative term. You can slap it into low at highway speed, it just brings the revs up to about 4,000 no matter how fast you're going. At slow speeds, shift into "low" tries to keep it in the lowest ratio as long as possible, but at these speeds, it should already be in its lowest ratio. But I know it helps when you climbing something that lets you get up to about 15 mph.
It was great seeing the my attempts and the older Honda at the same time. I swear it's the same spot they stall out! I agree re: the 690s do stall out a easier than the 580's. I do think crawl ratio matters a lot for this too. But 1 or 2 units either way shouldn't change an outcome. The Bronco we had had something like a 100:1 crawl. The difference between 15:1 and 16:1 should be nearly imperceptible. When making the climb having the power difference is NOTICEABLE over the 2.5s. I did similar climbs when we did Black Bear Pass (just to the point of no return) and I had to have my foot to the floor nearly the entire time. I know crawling is the weakness on the 3.6. I mentioned it in chat but just to reiterate here: The part of Imogene after Poser Rock the climb I didn't even have to use half throttle. Once past ~5-8 mph the car has tons of power in reserve. It's just getting there. A "Launch" gear would help tremendously. Speaking of: I showed you: First 'gear' will take me to 50+ mph! No first gear should be that long. Even my crazy Honda Insight has a more aggressive first gear and its transmission is geared crazy long to help MPG. It held the record for highest mpg passenger car for almost 15 years. Why Subaru put that long of a first in it is beyond me. MPG/EPA/CAFE is my guess. Or not wanting it to be competitive with the WRX. Who knows. Re: CVT hate I've been defending the Subaru units for a while now. They have their flaws (shown here) and aren't perfect. But the 3.6 with the CVT is my favorite Subaru to drive. I've owned every iteration of 3.0/3.6 Subaru and it's just the best overall one. I've blown up 4 and 5 EATs and never blown up a Subaru CVT. They're not perfect but neither are the old 4/5EATs Subaru used anyway and at least they don't drive like farm equipment with essentially 2 or 3 useable gears. The 30 hour trip each way before/after what was shown here proved I made the right choice. The car happily will cruise at 85 mph with ample passing power still in reserve and get 25-27 mpg while doing it. It won't hunt for gears climbing mountains and is happy to chug away at 2000 rpm at those speeds. In spite of its flaws I love my 3.6. Why we kept it over the Forester Wilderness we had, even though I think it would have walked up anything on Imogene. I only drive Imogene once a year (; And have something with a Dana 44/14 Bolt for Rock Bashing.
I got a Chinese scooter with a CVT and I’ve had zero problems with it many many electrical and engine problems, but no transmission problems I also have a newer Subaru with a TR 580 CVT and so far I like it but I haven’t had it for very long. I like that it does not shift much more smoother ride honestly feels faster to.
Here is my take, and I think I'm about as qualified as anyone. The problems now aren't with the build quality and durability of the subaru CVT. It's literally gearing, and electronics. Cutting engine power, and stall. 1. Raise the engine stall to 3500 rpms. This helps spin the tq converter to lock it up. 2. It's a CVT. Electronically program a 3 or 4:1 1st gear for off road. Make it in xmode with manual mode engaged. Click the xmode on, flappy paddle down 2x, boom! Crawl gear engaged. 3. Every single one needs an external oil cooler. A real one, not the radiator cooler. 4. This is a personal complaint, get rid of the fake shift points. Yeah, a shiftless transmission feels weird, but the fake shifts are sloppy, cut power, and stumble between shifts sometimes. My cvt will gear hunt sometimes, and I'm like wtf lol you don't have gears. Of note, my Wilderness has only standed me 1x and it was in deep sand. And trust me, the pnw has some very steep, rocky hills that, surprisingly, have not been an issue other than flooring it and hoping I don't bust nothing. I blew a hub out, but the axle held once. But with the weight on this car in deep sand, and the lack of gearing, deep sand will eventually overcome it.
I agree 100% Jason! I feel that all Subarus should have this improved gearing with better overdrive ratios for cruising MPGS, and the Wilderness models should get even more aggressive. Although, I did get a bone stock OBW through Kramers arch last week! I was impressed! I haven't seen any other CVT Subaru get through, not even close. So it's apparent that the Outback Wilderness is a leap in Subaru CVT capability.
iv'e personally never experienced the cvt cutting power while offroading in my older tr580 even on steep stuff. Throttle controller for sure helps though. Im guessing that forester either had one or maybe something else
Yeah, their early CVT's had a lot of problems, but the current ones are a lot better. Just add a transmission cooler and they can take a beating, haha.
Tons of failures in early Ascents (including mine), I haven’t been following it since I sold mine so not sure how they are now. I do know it’s only of the few 3 rows that are getting discounted while the others brands can’t make enough to satisfy demand. Also Extended powertrain warranties (due to lawsuits?) other Subaru CVTs gives me zero faith in the brand. Gave the brand a try, never again.
I have a 2005 2.5Lt auto Outback and I love it. I also have a 1990 V8 auto Range Rover and I love that too. Seems like there's a lot of using a vehicle for which it wasn't really designed for going on. Though I don't have a CVT transmission in any of my cars, I understand CVTs are not particularly adept at handling higher torque situations which this video is displaying. I believe the Toyota CVT uses a geared 1st ratio before it shifts to CVT mode to avoid this sort of failure.
I have a 2018 Forester XT and I got it stuck within a month of bringing it home from the dealer. Trying to do a three point turn, I got the front two tires off the pavement onto a soft shoulder where they sank into some mud. Back two tires were still on pavement. Car was completely immobilized. Wouldn't even contemplate allowing the tires to spin at all - it just revved up to 2k or whatever and killed any power. Completely killed my off road confidence in the vehicle after only owning it for a month.
I've got the 23 Outback Wilderness (stock) and it certainly has better uphill ability than my 2017 outback. Spent 2 months in Idaho doing trails like the Magruder Corridor and was pleasantly surprised at my ability to stop on steep grades. I could continue, not back down.
The Outback Wilderness has a 14.3 crawl ratio for 2022 and older. In 2023 and newer, the Outback Wilderness has a crawl ratio of 15.5 because they changed the diff gears. You got lucky!
@@MatthewHeiskell I have a 2024 Outback Wilderness coming in a few weeks so some of these comments scare be about accepting the car and make me want to get a Jeep Grand Cherokee 4x4. I go on service/fire roads for fun when we travel/camp, so I'm in the "low-moderate" soft-roader category. I like the safety tech on the Subaru, especially with my wife being a newer driver. If it's not enough, maybe I'll get an older Jeep someday.
@@MikeyD64your Outback wilderness will be plenty capable! It has a 15.5 crawl ratio. That’s a lot better then my current Forester that has a 13.3 crawl ratio, and it was the only vehicle to make it up that rock first try. I’m waiting for delivery of my 2024 Forester Wilderness. With its safety features, it’s the perfect balance between daily drivability and off road capability. Welcome to the Subi Gang! You’re going to love it!
@@hukmai the axle ratio is important too! Forester wilderness 1st 4.07 x 4.11 rear diff Honda w/ ZF9 1st 4.71 x 4.33 rear diff Honda w/ Honda 10AT 1st 5.25 x 4.17 rear diff 😃
Subaru awd is great, but not having the front or rear lockers on the differentials is a game over for me, if I wanted to chase lifted 4x4 territory. X mode is a joke, not a CVT fan and no love for the Wilderness options.. For terrible road conditions, following a pre made rut in the ground, or if you have to one, Subaru is only AWD compromise that excels in the law of averages .
Just put wheels with smaller diameter, high ratio final gear. In the past subarus had low speed gear. I know CVT start at very Low to Very high ratio, but I think the final gearing is to high!
I've owned a variety of vehicles in my life. Probably the only one that comes close to the modern Foresters I've owned is a Jeep ZJ that I had as a first car. It had conventional 4wd, the kind with 2H, 4H, and 4L positions. Only over one spot I had to use 4L (a very, very steep dirt road going up to my family's property). Keep in mind the transfer case I had in it wasn't mechanically sound. Sometimes it would slam out of 4H randomly at any time if I got above 10mph in 4H. If I hadn't totaled it I probably would have had to replace that transfer case. My first Forester was a 2015, and wasn't a trim which had X-Mode. I drove it over the same spot which had me using 4L on my Jeep a few times, albeit with some speed. It struggled some doing it though, but shouldn't be discounted the fact that it did it. This is coming from a person who's not necessarily a fan of how CVT's drive. From my understanding Subaru isn't either but researched and use them for form factor and fuel efficiency purposes, not because they like them. My current Wilderness hasn't been up there yet but probably won't struggle as much. Even in day to day driving I can tell the difference that the lower final drive makes.
All technical details and vehicle capabilities aside, it makes sense to keep some degree of momentum going. If you can't keep moving at ~5mph without beating your vehicle to death or risking injury you probably are past the limits of the vehicle. These are not rock crawling Jeeps, Broncos, or trucks where you can expect to move at a snail's pace and really take your time negotiating an obstacle.
Now it should be noted that the Honda 5 speed isn't a planetary auto. It's actually built like a manual with tiny clutches on each gear to change gears. It still has a torque converter, but it's not a conventional auto. Not sure how they manage torque but i do know that the engine and transmission are tightly linked. Unlike other autos these transmissions have to coordinate precisely with the engine to time shifts and manage torque during shifts. it's possible the Honda system is also limiting torque, though I don't know for sure.
Dang Patrick, you are a wealth of knowledge. That explains A lot! Do you know if the new Honda 10 speed is a planetary automatic? I have a friend that witnessed the new Pilot TrailSport stalling out on a steep 40-45 degree hill where his ZF9 equipped Ridgeline with 33.4” tires was able to just crawl up.
This video took the wind out of my sails a bit.. Just recently purchased a 2019 outback 3.6r, going to put A/T tires on it and start exploring FSR's around BC. Hopefully I don't get stuck trying to climb too many hills... Maybe should've gone for the newer wilderness edition
I took my 2021 Subaru Forester Touring across country andcon some steep quarry roads and never had trouble. Still, when I saw the Forester Wilderness climb Sarah-n-Tuned's hill " like a goat", I traded the Touring for a 2023 Wilderness. I haven't really put it to the test, but I'll bet it's equal to ANYTHING I would ever want to do with it.
There's a wrench in the middle of a Subaru driveline that adds another layer of complexity, the Center Diff. Not read up on the CVT but assuming it's along the lines of the previous generation slush box so it's all about on-road AWD and not crawling per say. I'm curious as if there might be a setting most people are missing? X-Mode? What effect upsizing the tires and weight come into play? Payload? I'm running skinny 205's with a taller sidewall on my SG6 but I have a dual range 5-spd and LSD F&R and it crawls just fine.
i use mine for highway and some light offroad and works awesome, the way that feels is very comfy, kinda loud around 3k 4k RPM but seems to be normal to CVT's in general so... yeah
My 2016 with a CVT is no where near as capable as my 2005 Outback nor my 2011 Forester. The CVT already had to be replaced but even before that, it would just shut down all power with any obstacle. I also found Xmode was useless over 14 miles mph so no more than a gimmick on mine.
Interesting video. But it would had been even more interesting if there was a manual transmission Subaru in the mix to make a good overall comparison. Like a manual Crosstrek or also an old school 05 - 08 forester XT.
I don't understand the point of this, other than what appears to be an attempt of creating a problem where none exists: If you want to do this type of wheeling, you get a dedicated wheeler with a diff lock. That's it. It's no more complicated than that. I have a Forester Wilderness that can get me to 95% of the places I want to go, knowing full well that a much more expensive, gas-guzzling 4Runner could get me to the remaining 5%, but I made a conscious decision that It was worth the compromise. If hardcore wheeling was my thing, I would not have even considered a Subie.
Heading to Sedona, AZ and then the start of the Utah BDR next week with our 2023 Ascent for some overlanding. I'm confused, because the Subaru Ascent using the TR690, but we've taken ours up steep climbs like that without needing to bump. Just steady on the throttle and it climbed right up without hesitation. Perhaps because the Ascent has a CVT cooler? Is it something else? The Ascent also gets 100% of it's 277lb-ft of torque at only 2k rpms, which is way lower than the Outback and Forester...perhaps that helps? I feel something is different with the Ascent, because I haven't run into any stalling issues and we've been all over the place. Tomorrow we head to the start of the Utah BDR, so I'll get a good chance to upload some videos of us going up steep climbs. I'll be sure to get one of us stopping and starting on a hill.
I have a Subaru Forester SG manual transmission with manual low gear reductor here in Europe. The limit is never the gearbox that obviously doesn't stall (but the Subaru clutch slips like crazy cause is really crap), the limit with MT is simply the grip of the tyre. To be honest I would be really scared to pass to a CVT...
CVTs are perfectly adequate for trips to the gym or grocery store. Everything has design limitations, and I think the TR580 in the Forester was pushed well beyond what it was intended to deal with. In my opinion, the appropriate transmission for that task of climbing that rock would be a beefy manual transmission and a 40+ overall crawl ratio. Just look at what goes into semi trucks that do heavy haul. Those gearboxes are _beefy._ A torque converter has the advantage of being a fluid coupling for durability and smoothness, but it does not transfer power any near efficiently enough to deal with tough obstacles, especially not for any significant duration, as the heat buildup would quickly wear them out. My biggest gripe with modern CVTs is that they do those ugly fake shifts. It completely defeats the point of the CVT. CVTs should be smooth and optimized for power and efficiency, to which fake shifts are antithetical. Even if manufacturers did want to implement fake shifts, there are ways to do it that make it less ugly, like having more time between shifts, gradual buildup after shifts, and nicer sounding harmonic intervals (gives us perfect 4ths, perfect 5ths, and tritones, not a bunch of minor and major 3rds ...). I kinda dig the Kia Forte's latest CVT because it actually mimics an automatic accurately.
Yes Rob. All the vehicles in the Imogene pass video has upgraded cooling. The Outback stayed the coolest. But I don’t think anyone went passed 245F, and that just happened once and it didn’t last very long. I forgot where.
I'm going to guess that for Forrester that was able to stop and start in the steep incline has a rear locker. My theory is that actually turning both rear wheels at the same RPM allows all the torque to reach the ground (if you have the traction for it). A BLD eats torque. Worst case, one tire completely off the ground, the BLD stops that wheel and the gearing in the diff sends all its RPM to the other wheel, doubling its speed and halving its torque.
sorry I didn't realize this was so old. It just popped up on my feed. Probably because I just bought a 2024 Oback Wilderness and have been watching a lot of Subaru content recently
@@Ram14250 I don’t think that was it. I think the toque converters are different. The 6 cyl has an older CVT that Subaru keeps using in their “performance models”. The base engines have a newer and better designed CVT.
The whole issue comes down to intended usage. Our 2020 OB Onyx Turbo is a superb traveling, light duty, off-road car. The Info system is another matter, however, with competent touring tires, it keeps ahead of all but the fastest boyz. Did I mention it handles much better than expected, for a higher CG car? As an "Original Transcon RR" enthusiast, it works well, takes us to historic off-road sites of original RR construction mid 19th century.. 66K miles, Trans fluid changed, 60K service, 27-30 MPG when driven conservatively. CVT seldom elicits frowns. Complaint: The info system should have been fully recalled, and fixed at no charge to customer...class action complaint? Thanks for the video, from Darrell. Subscribed.
The newer Subaru's torque converter lockup is so low in the rpm band. I was able to drag my wrx with the brakes frozen 50 yards and on to a trailer with my Crosstrek. I was honestly astounded. I though it would just stall out and over temp the transmission.
I have lots of experience with the Subaru CVTs. The main issue in the earlier models is failure of the valve body (selenoids) this was fixed in the newer gens (late 5th Gen and 6th Gen Outbacks) the CVT itself and the chain are known to go well over 200k miles without issue, the key is to change the fluid at least every 60k but sooner is better.
@@DaDaDo661 the Subaru manual says to change the CVT fluid every 24K for lightly severe use (the manual refers to stop and go traffic as severe). This kind of driving in this video would be well past what Subaru considers severe. Anyways, all it takes is one time to fry that fluid. It’s so important to “monitor transmission temps” with something like a scan gauge. If temps are going passed 230F (which will happen to a Subaru CVT on a steep highway), then fluid should be changed accordingly. A common failure is when the rubber seals become deformed. CVT failures are still happening at a similar if not worse rate right now, especially in the TR690HT models (OBXT, OBW, Ascent).
if only the subaru cvt has low range, or auxilary gear so it has atleast similar spread ratio like the 9speed ZF (current subaru cvt usualy 6.1:1 spread ratio) and lower finalgear to achieve 20+ crawl ratio it might climb better. a jatco cvt 7 (w/r) has hi/low aux gear so it has 8.7:1 spread ratio... yet currently its only produce for small car non offroad focus...
Yes, that’s one thing about the wilderness models, we learned that it’s possible for Subaru to play with the “ratios”. Can they add more gear ratio points? The TR580 has 7 points and the TR690HT has 8 points.
@@JonDZ_Adventuring from some literature, the wilderness use lower finalgear to provide better crawl ratio at the expense of cruise speed at top ratio, its similar with jeep freedom drive II on old jeep compass/patriot which use popular jatco jf011e but using lower final gear compared with regular freedomdrive I model. other than that, wilderness has different torqueconverter programing so it will slip longer and at higher rev. torque converter also able to multiple ratio, yet it may overheat cvtf faster. in my opinion the number of ratio point on cvt manual mode, is irrelevant since its limited on the spread of lowest ratio and the highest ratio, the key is to increase its ratio spread. btw i read somewhere that TR580II actualy use lower ratio on Auto (Drive) compared with M1, its 2.37:1 (D) and 2.18:1 (M1) so the crawl ratio actualy better on D. 😁
My only thought is that for me driving 90 miles per day to work and back on highway and town driving, they are just fine. Put 170k on my impreza with no problem. I am in the class of buying an outback for the extra room and I really like the look. I will not be buying it to wreck it trying to do what its not built to do. Most pickups aren't built for what you guys put those cars through. Just my thoughts.
Love seeing the Subaru bros get after it. Seems like these obstacles are all about gearing. Do they not make manual foresters anymore? You definitely wouldn't have issues with lockup with a manual. It'll lock so good your engine will stop, guaranteed. 🤣
I did cinnamon pass in my 2014 Crosstrek, absolutely loaded down with gear and with big tires, which makes the final ratio to the ground even worse if I’m correct. I have a MANUAL which makes the CVT argument null, but the ECU completely stops the motor from making torque down low. I had to keep it above like 1500rpm to get up moderate hills or I would just slow down and stop. To get over obstacles I basically had to jump off them with the skid plates lol. I absolutely toasted a clutch between that and the Grand Canyon. But I would factor the motor and ecu into your talk also since I don’t think it’s just the cvt. I’ve been in a friends car who had XMode and his pulled way harder than mine up hills as well.
A manual transmission lacks a torque converter, so down low you don’t get torque multiplication. Also, sounds like your clutch was on its way out and that’s a factor as well. Check out my video “AWD vs. 4WD”. There’s a dual ranged swapped Forester. The driver talks about how his new setup is so much better than stock and he admits that his clutch was on its way out and how that really affected his climbing capability. The dual range setup is awesome btw, you should consider it.
@@JonDZ_Adventuringactually it was a brand new Exedy clutch… well it was brand new before I started 😂😂😂 I’ve looked at the dual range swaps but they are prohibitively expensive. Could you ask him where he sourced parts and what he did? I’d be really interested to talk more
@@NateFanning he went through “the ZF design” in Colorado. Everything installed was $8K if I remember correctly, but this included a front LSD. He also added a rear torq locker so his Subaru Forester doesn’t have any open diffs.
Are hoy taking into account wheel size? Such bigger wheels increase grip, clearance, etc, but crawl ratio gets way worse if you leave the standard transmision gears
Jon, On this topic, can you comment on why the Subaru forester Wilderness made Sara n tuned’s hill climb and wilderness Outback failed!? Was it just slightly more momentum or is there something mechanical that the forester possess? Thanks for the great vid!
I can comment on this, while the outback has a more aggressive final drive on the rear differential, the forester wilderness has a much more aggressively tuned CVT with a first ratio of 4.11:1 which when paired with its final drive of 4.11:1 gives it a crawl ratio of 16.89. Whereas the outback wilderness first CVT ratio is 3.49:1, which, when paired to its 4.44:1 final drive, gives it a crawl ratio of 15.49:1 Jon can probably comment with some more details if he does
You said it great Dalton, but also imo, I observe the TR580 variants to have a better ability to lock up that torque converter. Also, the normally aspirated Subarus have a higher compression ratio vs. the turbo Subarus.
2 of you have pointed it out, and I wanted to clear up the confusion. At around the 8 minute mark I use a graphic from Subaru Canada that talks about “torque converter lock up”. I meant to refer to “lock up” in a sense where the torq converter doesn’t stall. My mistake was using the graphic and referring to what was said on Subaru Canada’s website. What would be a better term for what many of try to describe? Speed stall? Low stall? Expert feedback would be appreciated 😃
So there are 2 things at play. Lockup and stall. Stall is the RPM of the engine when all mechanical power is being transmitted by the fluid. I.e. the input side is pushing against the output side with maximum effect. In subaru's Its 2000-2200 roughly. Thats the speed the engine is spinning when the car stops climbing.
Lockup is a fuel saving feature where there is a clutch in the torque converter that bypasses the turbine and impeller and transmits torque directly like a manual transmission. This allows for engine braking, more responsive throttle, and less pumping losses from the torque converter. Lockup happens when the input and output sides of the TC are in sync. It sounds like the Subaru would try to partially lock at 9kph, and fully lock later. This would only happen under very light loads like coasting through a neighborhood.
You want the torque converter to lock to reduce transmission temps, but you want it UNLOCKED for slow speed off-roading because the difference between input and output on the TC is a kind of gear reduction. In Subaru I read its 2.07:1. Meaning that there is an effective "gear" reduction of 2.07:1 before the CVT. so the 12.7:1 crawl is only the mechanical ratio of the transmission, but the effective ratio is 26.29:1. This effective ratio is generally ignored because it applies to all automatic transmission vehicles more or less the same. The ratio is generally around 2:1.
You'll notice manual off-roaders have way more crawl ratio than their auto equiv. for this reason. They don't have that reduction.
With the TC locked you get efficient, cool, direct torque transfer but you lose gear reduction.
TLDR: Stall is the max engine speed with the vehicle not moving. Lockup is when a physical link is made between engine and transmission bypassing the torque converter.
I have 2021 Sport.
it is better when it on X mode snow& send the second Xmode, from standing on elevation. because there no T.C. operating Xmode with T.C it's stole.
cooler gearbox is another very importing issue to lower temperature .
You said it correctly. Those speeds you quoted are where the lockup clutch(es) begins to activate. They're irrelevant to TC stall speed. Stall speed is the point at which power (NOT torque; power) starts (or stops) being transmitted to the output side of the TC. Or, to say it another way, the maximum engine rpm at which there is no movement of the TC output shaft (or, at which it just begins).
What I think you DID miss, though, is the implication of the fact both conventional A/Ts and CVTs use torque converters. The form of the transmission that's down-stream of the TC (a CVT or a conventional A/T, in this comparison) has essentially nothing to do with TC stall speed. Accordingly, then, it is the TC itself, along with overall gear ratio, which prevents one vehicle being able to climb those rocks vs not. TC stall speed is a function of engine output, vehicle weight, and overall gearing in addition to TC internal design.
Increasing TC stall would help climbing enormously, because it would allow the engine to develop more power at stall. It would have the additional effects of heating the ATF further and faster, though, as well as reducing mpg and likely causing customer dissatisfaction because of the engine running faster before their vehicle starts moving from a stoplight, etc.
I don't believe this issue is a CVT problem. It's a problem of too-low engine output at low rpm, combined with too-high overall gear ratio (maybe TC design, too), vs the vehicle's weight.
I haven't gone off road in my Subaru yet. My experience with the Subaru cvt isn't bad, i really don't like the fake shifts.
I have a 2022 Forester wilderness. I do not go off roading for sport but more so to access trails in the backcountry in British Columbia, Canada. The logging roads here are quite rough, steep, with lots of cross ditches. I must say that I'm extremely happy with it's performance and probably have not even come close to pushing it to the limit. I find myself in areas with a lot of 4runners and larger 4x4 trucks. I'm happy.. but that said I'm not trying to drive over boulder 😂
Hey! I live in the lower mainland and just bought a 24 Crosstrek and was wondering if you’ve done the road up to Cheam/Lady peaks and if you think the Crosstrek could handle it.
@@clustertoo hey! Congrats on the purchase! I haven't been up to that area personally and have heard that road is pretty rough - I honestly don't think traction will be an issue but maybe ground clearance? Hard to say. I've gone up some pretty rough roads with pretty big wash outs like Brandywine upper lot, Tricouni and the road leading to Mount Garibaldi and my Forester handled spectacularly. Tricouni in particular most people say you need high clearance and 4wd - but had no issues doing it with the exception of one wash out and needed to use my traction boards for extra ground clearance. I imagine the cross trek will have similar performance? Hope this helps.
A 2002 Forester is compact, roomy, has good ground clearance, and is easy to work on. Put in quality head gaskets and you're good to go anywhere in North America.
@@darianlow4296 From everything I've read, the road to Cheam is a little worse than the road to Branywine upper lot, but take that with a grain of salt as I haven't been on that road to the upper lot, and it's been a number of years since I drove the road to Cheam (in a Geo Tracker).
I appreciate everything you say about not starting motion on a hill. I have lived in one of the rock crawling capitols of the world my whole life, and even with automatic Trans buggies, a complete stop has nothing to offer in terms of conquering obstacles. Identify the best line for your vehicle, and just keep moving with MINIMUM FORCE NECESSARY is how I was taught.
Learning to drive offroad on manual transmission vehicles is probably the best tool any offroader can have in their belt. It teaches that discernment of how much juice is needed real quick. If you're scared to break, or you really want to crawl, you're either on the wrong trail or in the wrong rig 🫡
The offroad capability of any vehicle is inversely related to how much you care about said vehicle.
Joking aside, even though my area doesn't have a lot of rock crawling challenges, it's mostly smooth trails tainted by occasional tree roots, mud, and small rocks. I was taught the same, keep enough momentum going to make it through, but not enough to break anything catastrophic.
The torque converter should not lock up at low speeds to provide its intended function: to increase the wheel torque when the wheels barely spin, while making the engine RPM rise to produce more torque.
In higher speeds, it locks up to provide better fuel economy.
The stall mid climb has to do with 2 things:
1. Anti wheel slip prevention. To test if this is the reason, "Deep snow and mud" mode can be used.
2. CVT slip prevention. Subaru limits the engine torque to prevent damage to the CVT, especially starting from a dead stop.
@DavidDLee Very good points!
It definitely wasn’t anti wheel slip prevention. The engine revs and doesn’t seem to retard itself, just seems like torque converter stall. You seem knowledgeable, do you know how a CVT Subaru protects the transmission? Is something decoupled? The 1st Gen Honda Pilot seems to stall out as well, but I don’t think there’s anything getting protected.
@@JonDZ_Adventuring I think Subarus limit RPM from a standstill, but they also play with the brakes to prevent wheel slip. The latter goes only so far, as brakes could prevent forward movement.
The last thing is the AWD clutch, before the rear diff. Most other vehicles don't fully engage it in high revs, to protect the driveline. IMHO, this is exactly what the Pilot's issue was. I am not sure how much this clutch is engaged in Subarus. I think it is more than other vehicles.
@@DavidDLeethe Pilots have a very interesting AWD system. There’s a transfer case that spins the driveshaft full time, then it goes to the twin clutch rear diff that can vary how much its coupled. So the rear diff acts as a center diff and also a rear lsd, but it’s ashamed the crawl ratios are so low in these older models.
The newer Subarus with the multi-plate clutch center diff are set 60% front / 40% rear but can send up to 70% front and 50/50 in xmode.
I was talking to a buddy of mine and we both believe that most of these car companies put a “quicker to stall” torque converter in their transmissions to protect them. The Brand new 2023 Pilot for example has Hondas new 10 speed. My friend witnessed the transmission stall our going up a 45 degree prolonged climb. His Ridgeline with the German made ZF9 climbed up without hesitation. I personally tried climbing this hill, and with all the weight I have on my vehicle (1200 added lbs.) the wheels started skipping, but no stall.
So there you go! I think the ZF9 is an anomaly, especially the variants with a 4.334 ans 4.556 rear diff, and other transmissions made by car manufacturers, Aisin and Jatco, typically set their torque converters to stall early.
@@JonDZ_Adventuring A torque converter is just viscous fluid between two "propellers " (a turbine and impeller). The faster the impeller is spun the stronger the torque on the turbine be. In fact, the input torque is multiplied by the torque converter to the output, when the output is turning slower than the input.
So, if the engine is kept below a certain RPM you know what the max torque of the output be (the max is when the turbine & wheels are not turning).
If the input was not limited, the rest of the transmission would need to be beefier and/or cooled.
The not locking part is not what is stalling anything. When locked, there's no torque multiplying effect. It is only to save gas when traveling at speed.
The only way you can limit the effect of the torque converter is by limiting the engine RPM and selecting a less viscous fluid (i.e. require more input RPM for the same output torque).
I have a lifted 2021 crosstrek sport and my friends refer to it as the “swiss army knife of cars” very impressed what this little cross over can do with the CVT. And Xmode abilities make it even better
Watch what a Volkswagen Touareg can do. 2004-8 😅
Wow, really nice video with a lot of information, and real trail experience and data. We need more videos in the space like this.
There is a lot going on here. Some of it is crawl ratio, some of it is the widely varyinng CVT Torque Converter stall values (and lockup behavior), Some is the brain of the ECU preventing that Torque converter from overheating when it senses it is being pushed too hard or approaching its stall values, and some of it, as I have made many posts about, is the misunderstood and relatively unspoken torque loss that is inherent in the AWD torque vertoring systems because as soon as you go on something hard or steep, the moment you start to lose traction, you are fighting to some extent against your brakins system, which moves torque around, but also results in torque loss.. Usually it is all 4 of these occurring at once that creates a full stall.
I hadn't even considered the torque converter lock up specs. I assumed that the lineartronic CVT would be able to take advantage of the evolution of the stanndard Transmission upgrades thru the years, which have made it more likely that you will be locked, even at low speeds, while under startup loads. This is because it helped MPG, and was just more efficient and less hot.
I guess they have their reasons, but the lockup speed is fairly slow for hard obstacles which means that we are using all fluid pressure,, which is fine, but hot, and not sustainable, which is why they have all those nanny smart lockouts so you don't burn up. I want a BURN button.
That being said, as I mentioned in my other post on your page the other day, regarding torque vectoring losses and CVT, it is important to learn how to drive your vehicle. If you drive this like it is a Kia Metro, it is not going to work. Use your manual mode and paddle shifters offroad Just remember you are in manual or you may have exessive RPM.s But you can have higher RPM's which may help the converter lockup, and CERTAINLY help ward against this cars inherant desire to upshift too soon the moment you back off the throttle. This is great in town and saves you gas. Offroad, it creates a situation where you are constantly upshifing and downshifting. Keep it in 1st gear over obstacles. Also keep in mind, that when up against a hard obstacle, midhill, or the like, you may FLOOR it and nothing will happen, but keep trying for at least 3 seconds, because the torque vectoring system may just be considering the situation. In my car, I was giving up too easy. When I learned to give it an extra few seconds, I was rewarded by a Rocket launch jump, which frankly is a whole other problem, but it will MOVE you off an obstacle. This may be unique to my Outback Wilderness. It seems stalled, but when I keep it working a second or so longer, it just figures well, none of this other crap worked, let me send the beans. And honestly you don't WANT the beans, you just want controllable movement, but with experience, you can moderate the beans, and it actually works. This is about knowing your rig.
Nice writeup and data, I can't imagine the work that went into this video, but please everyone give this a like for the effort. All I can say is that it would be nice to have a NANNY OFF button in the case of the brain trying to save the car. Yeah, people would destroy their rigs. But people that knew what they were doing could get past that hard 5 feet in some cases, and get on with their day.
Personally I like the CVT in my modern Subaru. It's the most modern and toughest made, and I know that the CVT is not what causes the "pauses" in my rig, and I know how to avoid the pauses MOST of the time because I know my rig. Granted I haven't done anything SUPER hard, but I've done some pretty difficult stuff where I forced the car to basically stall, and got past those points with various methods. My Outback Wilderness has plenty of power, and we can all concede that the number ONE problem is lack of a low range in many of our AWD rigs. Everything else is just comparing how much less or more that sucks, given certain conditions, driving styles, knowledge, settings, modifications, etc.
Databyter
Thanks for the detailed comment Databyter! I actually put this video together this morning, so admittedly I just kind of whipped it up. I focused on making a 10 minute video, because it’s been a week and I hear TH-cam will get angry with me if I don’t provide my content offering. The Imogene pass trip was very eye opening. The results weren’t what I had imagined. The side by side comparison between the SK Forester 2.5 and the Outback 3.6R was eye opening. How is this happening?
@@JonDZ_Adventuring Well, I really appreciated things like the graphic showing the relative crawl ratios of various rigs. That is exactly the kind of hard date that we are all interested put forward in a very easy to understand and compare way. And finding stuff like that to post saves the rest of us a lot of work. I found it very interesting.
Thanks for the great video, this was super informative! I have a 2010 OB with 2.5 liter engine, the CVT hasn't given me any issues so far and I've done some pretty rough roads with some steep hills.(just started doing off roading with it in the last couple months) I just think you learn how to drive it and get momentum when going up steep obstacles.
This is funny as I haul Subarus. Ive never had an issue with any Subaru climbing an inclined ramp from a dead stop. They are my favorite brand to load and I own a 16 Forester. My driveway is pretty steep and have never had an issue. This is all news to me.
Do the front wheels slip on the ramp? If the front can up they will go up. That is how their center coupling works.
@zanzabar4ky7 No. If it's rainy or icy' they just go right up. Never an issue. My favorite car brand to load.
@@pavementsailor exactly,if it is rainy or icy the front can slip and they can go up. If the wheels don't slip you will have issues going up steep hills. You will also have issues if the front suddenly gets traction and that will stop you in your tracks.
I love Subaru but the new ones do not keep up with the gm era ones.
My outback got stuck on a rock 3 times because of cvt. It was a great situation to try my new winch.
CVTs will be the best! Once we are able to get reliability down... The ability to stay in optimal RPM range for either performance or fuel economy makes it very useful in normal day driving.
Thanks for elaborating on your opinion!! Good points!
I've had cars with CVT transmissions over the last 15 years and now a 2014 Subaru Outback with 2.5i and a CVT. Like probably 90% of Subaru drivers, I tool around im the suburbs and im glad it will get home on the snow. The CVT is great driving around town, but if I was going rock climbing like you e shown here, I'd find an H6 with a traditional automatic. Basically your average Subaru isnt really designed to climb like that.
@@thomasfx3190 and this year in July (2024) we did just that. 3rd gen, 3.0 H6 LL beam with VTD and the 5EAT with a 14:1 crawl ratio. It did great! We also had a 2nd gen 3.0H6 with a 12:1 crawl ratio 4EAT, but something was wrong. The engine kept misfiring. Not sure if it was a ECU programming thing or something else. There’s no doubt in my mind now, the 3.0 H6 with VTD is the unicorn 🦄 Outback.
I have a Nissan X-trail cvt. And while i am terrified of snapping the xvt chain off road, it doesn't stop me. It does, however, force me to be gentle with the vehicle and transmission. Therefore, im more likely to be able to drive home afterwards.
Had a 2017 Forester shoed with Geolanders and did experience the seeming power loss in deep sand going up a switch back as I had to pull to the inner side of the curve to allow a descending vehicle to pass. It just wouldn’t spin the tires and, as I was told , shut down the power to prevent from cooking the CVT. The solution was to sit a few minutes, let things cool down and pump the gas pedal… let off when power began to bog and then get right back into it. I had other “close calls” on steep trails in AZ but was never left where I could make on my own power. Well the Forester is gone and I now have a 2022 Outback Wilderness that fortunately someone already fitted with a full Primitive Racing skid plate package. No it’s not going a be a Rock Crawler but should take me most anywhere I want to go with relative ease. Thank from a new subscriber.
I own a FXT 2014 with a lot of miles 200K and i replace it with a Forester Wilderness 2023, i don't know the crawl ratio but the differential ratio difference (3,73 vs 4,11) are a very huge upgrade to climb hill and on acceleration. After few good offroad review i decided to continue with Subaru. The FA20DIT and 3,6R has the same transmission and same problem. When the transmission fail the main problem is the selenoid inside CVT loose ability to apply enough pressure to work properly.
I do soft gravel/mud and snow offroading on my outback and it works great. If I want to do rock crawling, I would get a tacoma or wrangler that has locking diffs. The cvt wasnt designed to tackle this kind of angle
This isn't rock crawling. Do you know what rock crawling is?
C’mon guys, just think of it: CVT + offroad!
It is impossible for any automobile manufacturer, except Subaru. Giant kudos to Fuji Heavy Industries for making that kinda stuff at least somehow possible. We witness a true technological miracle and don’t understand that.
What car manufacturer can you think of that is not foreign off-road and is equipped with CVT from the factory? Honda CVT? Audi CVT? Nissan CVT?
Subaru have already made CVTs decently reliable on-road, now they make it ‘almost capable’ off-road (currently they are in transition from ‘almost capable’ to ‘quite capable’), which is a huge exception.
They’ll learn.
From someone who owns a 2022 outback, the cvt is the biggest thing holding it back off road. It would benefit from a modern 8 or 9 speed auto.
Fun video and very informative. I had the opportunity to drive Imogene pass this summer in my stock 4Runner SR5. I remember that rock that you were trying to climb up. I pulled right up to it, stopped, realized I had clearance and went right up it. As an inexperienced off roader, Imogene was a hoot and I was super happy with my stock 2010 4Runner with 175,000 miles and impressed with just how capable it was.
Good for you
It would be interesting to see what the 3.6 CVT temperature was during these attempts. I've been off-roading with a 3.6 and was surprised many times at the ability of it to muscle up some climbs and even accelerate. Trans temps were below 200^f during these climbs I was impressed with. On a big (long) climb, temps rose above 230^f and I was getting the stall effect after a mid-hill stop/start but was able to coax it up the rest of the way after a small backup and restart, but it seemed like a very different car. This climb was long, but not any more steep or more bumpy than what had already been climbed and had also experienced mid-hill restarts without issue. In fact, I was getting over confident in its ability to climb. I plan to add a decent size transmission cooler then go test more. Outback's have a supplemental cooler but it's tiny.
Temps were low. All vehicles in this video have upgraded cooling.
@@JonDZ_Adventuring Interesting. I need to find a test hill and log all of the engine parameters like timing, spark, fuel....The CVT obviously is not a crawler, but it's behavior seems strange without access to the source code. Figuring out if it's software (for protection) or mechanical limited would be interesting
You make a lot of excellent points here. I think the one time we tried doing some moderate off-road in a CVT equipped 2016 Forester here in Jamaica the biggest limitation for us was throttle control/response.
The hills were not super steep and power loss due to altitude wasn't much of an issue since we didn't go over 1000m or 3200ft. What was extremely hard was in the mud you trying to accelerate over an obstacle or get going in slippery circumstances and you put some throttle in, and then not much happens, and then suddenly wheelspin etc. The TRAC control will then cut power, or if you run with it off, things get a little hairy and it's hard to maintain lines.
It was just extremely hard to modulate uphill. Not very linear despite the name lol.
On the other hand coming back down the same muddy slope X mode saved our skins. There was no way we could do that and keep it on the trail by engine / wheel braking manually. The electronics managed our speed all the way back down
I got myself a 23 outback wilderness and was up a steep incine, didnt take much to light up all the wheels with small amount of throttle
The Outback Wilderness has a 14.3 crawl ratio for 2022 and older. In 2023 and newer, the Outback Wilderness has a crawl ratio of 15.5 because they changed the diff gears. You got lucky!
Great video! I grew up in Western Colorado near where this was filmed. Bought a Subaru 2 months ago and cannot wait to get it out on those mountain roads. I was a manual transmission driver for the last 20 years. Subaru paddles plus S/I modes and X Mode make the CVT easy to live with.
In regards to the Forester climbing the hill you mention at end of clip; it’s probably one that has the early Subaru wagon dual range manual transmission. Apparently there is a newer version of that that is being imported through JDM importers, and I’ve seen some videos were people have put them into newer cars.
I will neither confirm or deny 🤣. It’ll be a big surprise next episode 😂
Most CVTs I've driven seem to have a fairly high initial gear ratio based on their lack of initial acceleration. I'd guess that there are design limitations that limit the gearing range a CVT can have. In order to ensure fuel economy on the highway they're geared high which means they don't have much torque to the wheels at low speed.
Awesome video Jon! Love how you feature different vehicle to show how capable they all are.
Thanks Mike!!! We need to run together sometime, and bring the Rav4!
For sure!@@JonDZ_Adventuring
TR690 Gen 2 is a very interesting transmission. They say it is capable of handling much more torque (300+ lbft) than the TR580 (officially rated for 184 lbft) so it technically should ease through this course, which is clearly not the case. Maybe the fact that the TR580 was designed from the ground up might have something to do with it's performance.
I'd be curious to see how the new Crosstrek Wilderness climbs that same rock section at 1:45 and how it compares on the Crawl Ratio chart.
Hey I made the video (comment featured in the video). ;-) I'm just lurking here because in around 5 years I plan to buy whatever Wilderness edition or equiv is available for the Outback. I currently have a 2014 F150 with the 3.5L twin turbo and the 6 speed auto with low range. That will be retired and only used for 'truck stuff' like Home Depot runs, but the power and pulling ability of this setup is impressive (also has an electronic rear locker). I don't NEED that type of performance and honestly, I don't know that I'd ever do Imogene Pass...mostly because, my wife would be with me and I'd be retired and I just know, she'd throw a fit if I tried to take her up there (and she'd probably have a heart attack even though I'd find it fun). All I really need is a great AWD system for snow/dirt/light mud and enough pulling power to pull itself up a pretty steep incline. I'd 'like' to hit some forest roads and trails to see things I don't normally see, sort of like you show in that teaser video at the end of this one...but that's about as extreme as I'd get. I'm not interested in rock crawling and generally beating the cr@p out of an expensive car I plan to keep for 10+ years.
The Wilderness trims have a few advantages for more challenging environments. The 4.11 gearing in the rear diff and a transmission cooler will really help a lot if you are going in more difficult areas. No, it's not a Wrangler Rubicon, but it is far more capable than most regular crossover vehicles and a lot of people who own Wranglers rarely leave the road anyway. From watching some off road testing of various crossovers, the Wilderness trim Subaru vehicles perform very well. Many other regular vehicles often have transmission overheating issues on the more challenging courses and/or can't complete the more difficult terrains. Subaru isn't trying to re-invent a Wrangler, they're just making a more capable daily driver. As long as you know that going in, you'll be happy with it.
Having driven a lifted 3.6 Outback Limited off-road a number of times I am very happy I choose a 4x4 with low range. The driving style required by the CVT did not feel safe. I could see how this could get people into trouble off-road especially for less experienced drivers. There is correct tool for each job and any CVT in moderate off-roading is like painting a wall with a toothbrush ✌️
This is the kind of comment the community needs. Great feedback from someone that use to drive a Subaru CVT.
That was a nice side by side comparison of the CVT vs conventional automatic. It was really interesting how Subaru’s CVT has progressed between the older Outback and newer Forester.
So you’re saying there’s a chance.
Great video comparison, lots of useful technical info. I have a lifted crosstrek I daily and have been very impressed with the CVT while offroad. When I visited Colorado, I was able to go down any trail I encountered. I went down a trail rated for high clearance vehicles with 4Lo with no issues. I also have a lifted 6sp manual outback, which is horrible at climbing hills. I also have an older Lexus GX470, which I have not taken off road yet.
I think the most interesting comparison is between my Forester and Bruceyyyyy's Outback. My Forester made it first try. His Outback never made it up. My crawl ratio is 4.5% better but he has 40% more horsepower and torque! Crawl ratio is more important than horsepower and torque. I feel bad for everyone who bought an Outback Wilderness because it has a crawl ratio of 14.3 . . . . not nearly as good as the Forester Wilderness and Crosstrek Wilderenss that have a crawl ratios of 16.7
It definitely is a compelling comparison. Crawl ratio is so close, that I don’t think that it’s a factor. Your SK forester has the newer TR580 and Bruceyyyyy’s Outback 3.6R has the older TR590HT. If you look up the old literature about the improvements from the TR690 to the TR580, there’s a lot of drivetrain efficiency improvements, less parasitic drivetrain loss. They don’t mention it, but I feel that the TR580 is paired with a better torque converter.
Also, the outback wilderness has a 15.5:1 crawl ratio 😉.
Out of all the Subies, your SK forester surprised me the most, since you didn’t have the torque locker.
@@JonDZ_Adventuring I just dove into the Outback Wilderness data with a fine toothed comb. . . the Outback Wilderness has a 14.3 crawl ratio for 2022 and older. In 2023 and newer, the Outback Wilderness has a crawl ratio of 15.5 and both of those are inferior to the Forester Wilderness and Crosstrek Wilderenss that have a crawl ratios of 16.7
Agree with everything you said in the video. One thing I think is Subaru purposely programming the torque converter to stall in their HT (high torque?) transmission in their turbo models is to reduce the chance of overheating the CVT due to all the power of the turbo engine. Imagine 250+ lb ft of torque at 2000 rpms vs maybe 100 lb ft torque in their 2.5 NA models at the same engine speed. They dont need to limit the TR580 because it isnt enough power to produce much heat at low RPMs thus allowing the 2.5 models to clear the obstacles without stalling. Couple that along with the fact that oh I dont know CVTs suck! Lol
Btw, I met that SJ Forester driver with his 2 dogs about a year ago when we went up that gnarly trail 😉
Oh, interesting to think that the XT models might be worse off in this situation.
cvt save some gasoline but lowers your engine s power, while the vvt does help you and take you off the most dificult situations. cvt its kind of like not made for offroads. they should let us choose between cvt and vvt automatic transmisions.
i had a bone stock crosstrek with the cvt, turning off traction control and shifting the transmission manually helped me get over minor obstacles...although i never got it to 10,000 ft. great video.
X-Mode. Almost 11K on my 2023 outback XT, no complaints so far.
Nice explanation. I’m not a Subi owner but may be a possibility if/when they get the transmission better sorted for off-road. I’ve rented as couple Outback’s and wheeled them around Sedona, and they’ve done quite well, but the issue you bring up occurred with both on certain obstacles.
My rings have all been some version of a Land Cruiser or GX or 4runner, so a 4WD with a low range. As many may know two foot driving a slush box transmission in 4LO affords a lot of control and torque amplification. If/when Subaru can build or program their transmission to allow the style of driving, along with a transfer case with a low range (old GL’s) they will have a vehicle that’ll be a force to recon with, and a potential new buyer here.
I know why that last Forester could climb mid hill! I have several videos about it's capability 😁
I just watched your Gunnison video, good stuff!! Subbed and belled my friend!! Wish you could have came out to Colorado. Let’s go again next year.
I have a 2023 crosstrek outdoor with their newest cvt and the dual x mode actually does a really good job of offering options of how the centre diff and tcs work together.
Hey John, my Jeep Grand Cherokee Trailhawk doesn’t have any problems with stalling out and it has way more capability than I’ve needed so far. I noticed it wasn’t included on the graph that you posted in the video. I drug my trailer up some pretty gnarly trails and tracks in the Oregon coast and the cascade ranges with the Jeep Grand Cherokee WK2.
Hahhahaha! It intentionally wasn’t on the graph because it has a 56:1 crawl ratio and would skew the screen and make everything look tiny 🤣🤣🤣. That thing is a beast! The most capable small unibody CUV with impressive tech!
But it’s a jeep…no thanks
Another thing that gives the SK an advantage over the outback are the wheels. Noticed hes running RPF1s which are probably a ton lighter than those Methods on the outback. Weight is super important as well
I've been off road in my 2019 3.6R and I've been able to stop on very steep dirt and some what rocky inclines like pretty much 45 degrees up from a flat horizontal. I'm doing this with a stock vehicle running on Toyo AT3s.
What I've found is when I flip on X-Mode which I would use for snow and other slick stuff, it seems as if the power level is reduced as to reduce the occurrence of wheel spin which then gets handled by the brake systems I believe. This power reduction then ends up hindering the vehicle ability to climb a steep grade but I believe places less demand on the braking system which is tasked with clamping down on any wheel that should happen to lose traction and start spinning which prevent torque from escaping.
This led me to trying experiments with climbing steep uneven grades with X-Mode turned on and off for comparison and I've found that with X-Mode off, there's definitely more power available to climb with but that was also accompanied by more occurances of momentary wheel spins which are immediately brought under control by the braking system.
The down hill control system which allows the vehicle to decelerate to a controlled crawl going down a steep hill without the need to apply manual breaking force is absolutely phenomenal and amazing and confidence inspiring.
I'd just say if your going to do alot of off roading, that you make sure you got good brake pads with plenty of meat on them as they play a vital role in the performance capabilities and proper functioning of the drive system while off roading.
I would love to see the four cylinder Silverado try some of these. GM has taken out the low range for cost savings. I believe the crawl ratio is around 17-18:1 without low range. But with all that low end torque I would love to see how it would fair.
Oh that’s interesting! Do they have a 4x4 model with the four cylinder turbo??
They have a low range if you option it. The base models have no low range. It’s a 2.7 turbo 4 that’s in the new Colorado and silverados
I think the Forester Wilderness with N/A 2.5 and the CVT it’s paired to with the lower final ratio and extra transmission cooler are probably as good of an off-roader as a CVT will get. I am admittedly biased as a 23 Forester Wilderness owner, but I am also under no illusions it’s as capable as true 4x4s. However, as a daily driver, it is surprisingly capable off road, and Subaru did a great job overall for what they’re working with.
I think the feasible way of partially avoiding the CVT hate (don't get me wrong i hate most of the cvts) is to put one mechanical lowering gear (Toyota had such gearbox in one of their models), and also put at least one torsen diff (they could source it from toyota if they are so inclined to save cost on manufacturing, since the GR models like Corolla and Yaris have it) ,other idea is , since they are going the EV route these days, they could take the rav 4 prime gearbox since, the geniuses from Toyota eliminated the weakest link- the chain, they replaced it with two electrical motors that simulated whatever gear you want and with great simplicity thus reliability...
I've been driving a European Forester 2.0 for six years and it's never let me down on steep hills or rough terrain. The only minor issue I've encountered is an occasional temperature warning.
This is a great video man. I'm sorry it took me so long to see it and I'll be sharing it.
After watching the entire video I think the CVT is very Miss understood and blamed for problems common to most automatics. First is torque converter stall. Unless you have a dual clutch you’re going to have torque converter stall. If any torque converter were able to fully lock up at 0mph you would have engine stall instead. Another issue is the traction control. Since the pilot was spinning tires traction was the issue. Traction control would be cutting power in that situation so the tires wouldn’t spin. This is often mistaken for torque converter stall. Gear ratios are the most important thing for any transmission when trying to climb obstacles. A CVT with similar final drive ratio would be as if not more capable due to infinite ratios available. I have a Crosstrek and actually like the CVT. It’s taken me places I never thought I would go in the Subaru. I also have a Duramax that sits at home more often than I expected just because of how capable and the Crosstrek is.
The old Manual Transfer Case with Low Range is gone & unfortunately, the amount of people who go Off Road like this in modern cars is a very minor percentage.
My Outback Wilderness has been great on road, sand, ice/snow, and logging roads. But that said, it isn't made for wheeling where 4WD+4LO is needed. It gets hate for having shortcomings in territories where 4runners and more capable trucks hang.
Its like complaining those trucks get bad MPG. They're made for greater capability, whereas CVTs really shine in light offroad WHILE being able to get 25-30 MPG. Its for the middle ground where you need more capability than what cars can provide but dont need a truck, and want decent MPG.
This winter, my wife's 2020, new to us, CVT Outback Premium was getting 3 mpg less than my 18 Forester 6MT. Now, it's been the first month and a half of ownership, and it was subzero temps for those two weeks, but....if the God's-gift-to-economy CVT was getting 15% less MPG than my manual..........😅
The Forester also has a lower axle ratio (meaning a better crawl ratio) than the Outback. That coupled with the Forester being a few hundred pounds lighter may have helped it climb that obstacle just as much as the newer model transmission. The TR690 is a stronger transmission than the newer, more commonly used TR580 as well.
@@oldjohnnyrude8404 we are talking 12.7:1 in the H6 Outback vs. 13.3:1 in the Forester. That’s hardly any difference.
The point made in this video is that you can say the TR690 / TR690HT is a “stronger” transmission, but there’s so many examples of it hitting speed stall. It’s the older more inefficient design as well.
Are those automatic transmission Subarus staying in low on the shifter, that's one thing I've noticed with my brother's Forester if he leaves it and low on the shifter and x-mode it's a completely different car
I was in "low" and x-mode enabled when I climbed the rock in one shot. But "low" on the shifter is kind of a relative term. You can slap it into low at highway speed, it just brings the revs up to about 4,000 no matter how fast you're going. At slow speeds, shift into "low" tries to keep it in the lowest ratio as long as possible, but at these speeds, it should already be in its lowest ratio. But I know it helps when you climbing something that lets you get up to about 15 mph.
It was great seeing the my attempts and the older Honda at the same time.
I swear it's the same spot they stall out!
I agree re: the 690s do stall out a easier than the 580's.
I do think crawl ratio matters a lot for this too. But 1 or 2 units either way shouldn't change an outcome. The Bronco we had had something like a 100:1 crawl. The difference between 15:1 and 16:1 should be nearly imperceptible.
When making the climb having the power difference is NOTICEABLE over the 2.5s. I did similar climbs when we did Black Bear Pass (just to the point of no return) and I had to have my foot to the floor nearly the entire time.
I know crawling is the weakness on the 3.6.
I mentioned it in chat but just to reiterate here: The part of Imogene after Poser Rock the climb I didn't even have to use half throttle. Once past ~5-8 mph the car has tons of power in reserve. It's just getting there. A "Launch" gear would help tremendously. Speaking of:
I showed you:
First 'gear' will take me to 50+ mph! No first gear should be that long.
Even my crazy Honda Insight has a more aggressive first gear and its transmission is geared crazy long to help MPG. It held the record for highest mpg passenger car for almost 15 years.
Why Subaru put that long of a first in it is beyond me.
MPG/EPA/CAFE is my guess.
Or not wanting it to be competitive with the WRX. Who knows.
Re: CVT hate
I've been defending the Subaru units for a while now. They have their flaws (shown here) and aren't perfect. But the 3.6 with the CVT is my favorite Subaru to drive. I've owned every iteration of 3.0/3.6 Subaru and it's just the best overall one. I've blown up 4 and 5 EATs and never blown up a Subaru CVT. They're not perfect but neither are the old 4/5EATs Subaru used anyway and at least they don't drive like farm equipment with essentially 2 or 3 useable gears.
The 30 hour trip each way before/after what was shown here proved I made the right choice. The car happily will cruise at 85 mph with ample passing power still in reserve and get 25-27 mpg while doing it. It won't hunt for gears climbing mountains and is happy to chug away at 2000 rpm at those speeds.
In spite of its flaws I love my 3.6. Why we kept it over the Forester Wilderness we had, even though I think it would have walked up anything on Imogene.
I only drive Imogene once a year (;
And have something with a Dana 44/14 Bolt for Rock Bashing.
The difference between a 15:1 and 16:1 crawl ratio is not imperceptible. It’s a 7% difference.
@@MatthewHeiskellThat's a finely tuned Butt Dyno.
I got a Chinese scooter with a CVT and I’ve had zero problems with it many many electrical and engine problems, but no transmission problems I also have a newer Subaru with a TR 580 CVT and so far I like it but I haven’t had it for very long. I like that it does not shift much more smoother ride honestly feels faster to.
Here is my take, and I think I'm about as qualified as anyone.
The problems now aren't with the build quality and durability of the subaru CVT. It's literally gearing, and electronics. Cutting engine power, and stall.
1. Raise the engine stall to 3500 rpms. This helps spin the tq converter to lock it up.
2. It's a CVT. Electronically program a 3 or 4:1 1st gear for off road. Make it in xmode with manual mode engaged. Click the xmode on, flappy paddle down 2x, boom! Crawl gear engaged.
3. Every single one needs an external oil cooler. A real one, not the radiator cooler.
4. This is a personal complaint, get rid of the fake shift points. Yeah, a shiftless transmission feels weird, but the fake shifts are sloppy, cut power, and stumble between shifts sometimes. My cvt will gear hunt sometimes, and I'm like wtf lol you don't have gears.
Of note, my Wilderness has only standed me 1x and it was in deep sand. And trust me, the pnw has some very steep, rocky hills that, surprisingly, have not been an issue other than flooring it and hoping I don't bust nothing. I blew a hub out, but the axle held once. But with the weight on this car in deep sand, and the lack of gearing, deep sand will eventually overcome it.
I agree 100% Jason! I feel that all Subarus should have this improved gearing with better overdrive ratios for cruising MPGS, and the Wilderness models should get even more aggressive.
Although, I did get a bone stock OBW through Kramers arch last week! I was impressed! I haven't seen any other CVT Subaru get through, not even close. So it's apparent that the Outback Wilderness is a leap in Subaru CVT capability.
The Wilderness is not even close to a regular outback. We saw that at Diablo drop off.
Subaru’s CVT isn’t terrible, but it needs a first gear like Toyota has.
iv'e personally never experienced the cvt cutting power while offroading in my older tr580 even on steep stuff. Throttle controller for sure helps though. Im guessing that forester either had one or maybe something else
I believe the Subaru CVT has improved but there were a number of failures in the early years.
Yeah, their early CVT's had a lot of problems, but the current ones are a lot better. Just add a transmission cooler and they can take a beating, haha.
Tons of failures in early Ascents (including mine), I haven’t been following it since I sold mine so not sure how they are now. I do know it’s only of the few 3 rows that are getting discounted while the others brands can’t make enough to satisfy demand.
Also Extended powertrain warranties (due to lawsuits?) other Subaru CVTs gives me zero faith in the brand.
Gave the brand a try, never again.
I have a 2005 2.5Lt auto Outback and I love it. I also have a 1990 V8 auto Range Rover and I love that too. Seems like there's a lot of using a vehicle for which it wasn't really designed for going on. Though I don't have a CVT transmission in any of my cars, I understand CVTs are not particularly adept at handling higher torque situations which this video is displaying. I believe the Toyota CVT uses a geared 1st ratio before it shifts to CVT mode to avoid this sort of failure.
I have a 2018 Forester XT and I got it stuck within a month of bringing it home from the dealer. Trying to do a three point turn, I got the front two tires off the pavement onto a soft shoulder where they sank into some mud. Back two tires were still on pavement. Car was completely immobilized. Wouldn't even contemplate allowing the tires to spin at all - it just revved up to 2k or whatever and killed any power. Completely killed my off road confidence in the vehicle after only owning it for a month.
I've got the 23 Outback Wilderness (stock) and it certainly has better uphill ability than my 2017 outback. Spent 2 months in Idaho doing trails like the Magruder Corridor and was pleasantly surprised at my ability to stop on steep grades. I could continue, not back down.
The Outback Wilderness has a 14.3 crawl ratio for 2022 and older. In 2023 and newer, the Outback Wilderness has a crawl ratio of 15.5 because they changed the diff gears. You got lucky!
@@MatthewHeiskell I have a 2024 Outback Wilderness coming in a few weeks so some of these comments scare be about accepting the car and make me want to get a Jeep Grand Cherokee 4x4. I go on service/fire roads for fun when we travel/camp, so I'm in the "low-moderate" soft-roader category. I like the safety tech on the Subaru, especially with my wife being a newer driver. If it's not enough, maybe I'll get an older Jeep someday.
@@MikeyD64your Outback wilderness will be plenty capable! It has a 15.5 crawl ratio. That’s a lot better then my current Forester that has a 13.3 crawl ratio, and it was the only vehicle to make it up that rock first try. I’m waiting for delivery of my 2024 Forester Wilderness. With its safety features, it’s the perfect balance between daily drivability and off road capability. Welcome to the Subi Gang! You’re going to love it!
on my Sport 2021 I have a locker. it interesting to see what is better.
The key with the CVT is traction - lose it while climbing and you're in trouble - sand, loose rocks, ice, wet rocks, etc.
On my third CVT Subaru. No issues yet. Current one is a 2024 Crosstrek Wilderness
Forester wilderness CVT - 4.11
Honda w/ Zf 9hp - 4.8
Honda w/ 10spd - 5.2
What’s that? Haha
@@JonDZ_Adventuring 1st gear
@@hukmai the axle ratio is important too!
Forester wilderness
1st 4.07 x 4.11 rear diff
Honda w/ ZF9
1st 4.71 x 4.33 rear diff
Honda w/ Honda 10AT
1st 5.25 x 4.17 rear diff
😃
Subaru awd is great, but not having the front or rear lockers on the differentials is a game over for me, if I wanted to chase lifted 4x4 territory.
X mode is a joke, not a CVT fan and no love for the Wilderness options..
For terrible road conditions, following a pre made rut in the ground, or if you have to one, Subaru is only AWD compromise that excels in the law of averages .
Just put wheels with smaller diameter, high ratio final gear. In the past subarus had low speed gear. I know CVT start at very Low to Very high ratio, but I think the final gearing is to high!
My 2015 3.6 Putback does fine, as long as I turn of TC and enable X-Mode.
That being said, it was never designed for extreme off roading.
Drove an XV for 2 years. The CVT was , hmmmm, ok. Not brilliant but not awful. Different, shall we say but perfectly liveable with.
I've owned a variety of vehicles in my life. Probably the only one that comes close to the modern Foresters I've owned is a Jeep ZJ that I had as a first car. It had conventional 4wd, the kind with 2H, 4H, and 4L positions. Only over one spot I had to use 4L (a very, very steep dirt road going up to my family's property). Keep in mind the transfer case I had in it wasn't mechanically sound. Sometimes it would slam out of 4H randomly at any time if I got above 10mph in 4H. If I hadn't totaled it I probably would have had to replace that transfer case.
My first Forester was a 2015, and wasn't a trim which had X-Mode. I drove it over the same spot which had me using 4L on my Jeep a few times, albeit with some speed. It struggled some doing it though, but shouldn't be discounted the fact that it did it. This is coming from a person who's not necessarily a fan of how CVT's drive. From my understanding Subaru isn't either but researched and use them for form factor and fuel efficiency purposes, not because they like them.
My current Wilderness hasn't been up there yet but probably won't struggle as much. Even in day to day driving I can tell the difference that the lower final drive makes.
All technical details and vehicle capabilities aside, it makes sense to keep some degree of momentum going. If you can't keep moving at ~5mph without beating your vehicle to death or risking injury you probably are past the limits of the vehicle. These are not rock crawling Jeeps, Broncos, or trucks where you can expect to move at a snail's pace and really take your time negotiating an obstacle.
Now it should be noted that the Honda 5 speed isn't a planetary auto. It's actually built like a manual with tiny clutches on each gear to change gears. It still has a torque converter, but it's not a conventional auto. Not sure how they manage torque but i do know that the engine and transmission are tightly linked. Unlike other autos these transmissions have to coordinate precisely with the engine to time shifts and manage torque during shifts. it's possible the Honda system is also limiting torque, though I don't know for sure.
Dang Patrick, you are a wealth of knowledge. That explains A lot! Do you know if the new Honda 10 speed is a planetary automatic? I have a friend that witnessed the new Pilot TrailSport stalling out on a steep 40-45 degree hill where his ZF9 equipped Ridgeline with 33.4” tires was able to just crawl up.
@@JonDZ_Adventuring the new Honda transmissions are all planetary. You should look into the old Honda ones, they are nutty
This video took the wind out of my sails a bit.. Just recently purchased a 2019 outback 3.6r, going to put A/T tires on it and start exploring FSR's around BC. Hopefully I don't get stuck trying to climb too many hills... Maybe should've gone for the newer wilderness edition
My guess; change fluid viscosity to climb steep hills from stop..
I took my 2021 Subaru Forester Touring across country andcon some steep quarry roads and never had trouble. Still, when I saw the Forester Wilderness climb Sarah-n-Tuned's hill " like a goat", I traded the Touring for a 2023 Wilderness. I haven't really put it to the test, but I'll bet it's equal to ANYTHING I would ever want to do with it.
There's a wrench in the middle of a Subaru driveline that adds another layer of complexity, the Center Diff. Not read up on the CVT but assuming it's along the lines of the previous generation slush box so it's all about on-road AWD and not crawling per say. I'm curious as if there might be a setting most people are missing? X-Mode? What effect upsizing the tires and weight come into play? Payload? I'm running skinny 205's with a taller sidewall on my SG6 but I have a dual range 5-spd and LSD F&R and it crawls just fine.
i use mine for highway and some light offroad and works awesome, the way that feels is very comfy, kinda loud around 3k 4k RPM but seems to be normal to CVT's in general so... yeah
My 2016 with a CVT is no where near as capable as my 2005 Outback nor my 2011 Forester.
The CVT already had to be replaced but even before that, it would just shut down all power with any obstacle. I also found Xmode was useless over 14 miles mph so no more than a gimmick on mine.
Interesting video. But it would had been even more interesting if there was a manual transmission Subaru in the mix to make a good overall comparison. Like a manual Crosstrek or also an old school 05 - 08 forester XT.
Next video video will feature a 4th Gen Forester with a setup you’ll want to check out.
I don't understand the point of this, other than what appears to be an attempt of creating a problem where none exists: If you want to do this type of wheeling, you get a dedicated wheeler with a diff lock. That's it. It's no more complicated than that. I have a Forester Wilderness that can get me to 95% of the places I want to go, knowing full well that a much more expensive, gas-guzzling 4Runner could get me to the remaining 5%, but I made a conscious decision that It was worth the compromise. If hardcore wheeling was my thing, I would not have even considered a Subie.
Heading to Sedona, AZ and then the start of the Utah BDR next week with our 2023 Ascent for some overlanding.
I'm confused, because the Subaru Ascent using the TR690, but we've taken ours up steep climbs like that without needing to bump. Just steady on the throttle and it climbed right up without hesitation. Perhaps because the Ascent has a CVT cooler? Is it something else? The Ascent also gets 100% of it's 277lb-ft of torque at only 2k rpms, which is way lower than the Outback and Forester...perhaps that helps? I feel something is different with the Ascent, because I haven't run into any stalling issues and we've been all over the place. Tomorrow we head to the start of the Utah BDR, so I'll get a good chance to upload some videos of us going up steep climbs. I'll be sure to get one of us stopping and starting on a hill.
I have a Subaru Forester SG manual transmission with manual low gear reductor here in Europe. The limit is never the gearbox that obviously doesn't stall (but the Subaru clutch slips like crazy cause is really crap), the limit with MT is simply the grip of the tyre.
To be honest I would be really scared to pass to a CVT...
CVTs are perfectly adequate for trips to the gym or grocery store. Everything has design limitations, and I think the TR580 in the Forester was pushed well beyond what it was intended to deal with. In my opinion, the appropriate transmission for that task of climbing that rock would be a beefy manual transmission and a 40+ overall crawl ratio. Just look at what goes into semi trucks that do heavy haul. Those gearboxes are _beefy._ A torque converter has the advantage of being a fluid coupling for durability and smoothness, but it does not transfer power any near efficiently enough to deal with tough obstacles, especially not for any significant duration, as the heat buildup would quickly wear them out.
My biggest gripe with modern CVTs is that they do those ugly fake shifts. It completely defeats the point of the CVT. CVTs should be smooth and optimized for power and efficiency, to which fake shifts are antithetical. Even if manufacturers did want to implement fake shifts, there are ways to do it that make it less ugly, like having more time between shifts, gradual buildup after shifts, and nicer sounding harmonic intervals (gives us perfect 4ths, perfect 5ths, and tritones, not a bunch of minor and major 3rds ...). I kinda dig the Kia Forte's latest CVT because it actually mimics an automatic accurately.
Extra Transmission cooler added? My guess for the Forester.
Yes Rob. All the vehicles in the Imogene pass video has upgraded cooling. The Outback stayed the coolest. But I don’t think anyone went passed 245F, and that just happened once and it didn’t last very long. I forgot where.
I'm going to guess that for Forrester that was able to stop and start in the steep incline has a rear locker. My theory is that actually turning both rear wheels at the same RPM allows all the torque to reach the ground (if you have the traction for it). A BLD eats torque. Worst case, one tire completely off the ground, the BLD stops that wheel and the gearing in the diff sends all its RPM to the other wheel, doubling its speed and halving its torque.
sorry I didn't realize this was so old. It just popped up on my feed. Probably because I just bought a 2024 Oback Wilderness and have been watching a lot of Subaru content recently
Very Good Jon! Great video! Very interesting to see the crawl ratios of many vehicles.
Did you see the 6 cylinder geared 12.7:1 vs. the 4 cylinder geared 13.3:1? The 4 cylinder made the climb. The 6 cylinder is only 500 lbs. heavier.
Amazing what a little more ratio can do! @@JonDZ_Adventuring
@@Ram14250 I don’t think that was it. I think the toque converters are different. The 6 cyl has an older CVT that Subaru keeps using in their “performance models”. The base engines have a newer and better designed CVT.
I have a Levorg CVT in Finland. Works like a charm(?)... 2016
The whole issue comes down to intended usage. Our 2020 OB Onyx Turbo is a superb traveling, light duty, off-road car. The Info system is another matter, however, with competent touring tires, it keeps ahead of all but the fastest boyz. Did I mention it handles much better than expected, for a higher CG car? As an "Original Transcon RR" enthusiast, it works well, takes us to historic off-road sites of original RR construction mid 19th century.. 66K miles, Trans fluid changed, 60K service, 27-30 MPG when driven conservatively. CVT seldom elicits frowns. Complaint: The info system should have been fully recalled, and fixed at no charge to customer...class action complaint? Thanks for the video, from Darrell. Subscribed.
The newer Subaru's torque converter lockup is so low in the rpm band. I was able to drag my wrx with the brakes frozen 50 yards and on to a trailer with my Crosstrek. I was honestly astounded. I though it would just stall out and over temp the transmission.
I have lots of experience with the Subaru CVTs. The main issue in the earlier models is failure of the valve body (selenoids) this was fixed in the newer gens (late 5th Gen and 6th Gen Outbacks) the CVT itself and the chain are known to go well over 200k miles without issue, the key is to change the fluid at least every 60k but sooner is better.
@@DaDaDo661 the Subaru manual says to change the CVT fluid every 24K for lightly severe use (the manual refers to stop and go traffic as severe). This kind of driving in this video would be well past what Subaru considers severe. Anyways, all it takes is one time to fry that fluid. It’s so important to “monitor transmission temps” with something like a scan gauge. If temps are going passed 230F (which will happen to a Subaru CVT on a steep highway), then fluid should be changed accordingly. A common failure is when the rubber seals become deformed. CVT failures are still happening at a similar if not worse rate right now, especially in the TR690HT models (OBXT, OBW, Ascent).
For this kind of driving, I’d highly recommend a 10K CVT fluid change.
if only the subaru cvt has low range, or auxilary gear so it has atleast similar spread ratio like the 9speed ZF (current subaru cvt usualy 6.1:1 spread ratio) and lower finalgear to achieve 20+ crawl ratio it might climb better. a jatco cvt 7 (w/r) has hi/low aux gear so it has 8.7:1 spread ratio... yet currently its only produce for small car non offroad focus...
Yes, that’s one thing about the wilderness models, we learned that it’s possible for Subaru to play with the “ratios”. Can they add more gear ratio points? The TR580 has 7 points and the TR690HT has 8 points.
@@JonDZ_Adventuring from some literature, the wilderness use lower finalgear to provide better crawl ratio at the expense of cruise speed at top ratio, its similar with jeep freedom drive II on old jeep compass/patriot which use popular jatco jf011e but using lower final gear compared with regular freedomdrive I model. other than that, wilderness has different torqueconverter programing so it will slip longer and at higher rev. torque converter also able to multiple ratio, yet it may overheat cvtf faster. in my opinion the number of ratio point on cvt manual mode, is irrelevant since its limited on the spread of lowest ratio and the highest ratio, the key is to increase its ratio spread. btw i read somewhere that TR580II actualy use lower ratio on Auto (Drive) compared with M1, its 2.37:1 (D) and 2.18:1 (M1) so the crawl ratio actualy better on D. 😁
My only thought is that for me driving 90 miles per day to work and back on highway and town driving, they are just fine. Put 170k on my impreza with no problem. I am in the class of buying an outback for the extra room and I really like the look. I will not be buying it to wreck it trying to do what its not built to do. Most pickups aren't built for what you guys put those cars through. Just my thoughts.
Subaru is not intended for hard core off-roading! But with its lightweight and lower center of gravity it makes a great offroader😊
Love seeing the Subaru bros get after it. Seems like these obstacles are all about gearing. Do they not make manual foresters anymore? You definitely wouldn't have issues with lockup with a manual. It'll lock so good your engine will stop, guaranteed. 🤣
I did cinnamon pass in my 2014 Crosstrek, absolutely loaded down with gear and with big tires, which makes the final ratio to the ground even worse if I’m correct. I have a MANUAL which makes the CVT argument null, but the ECU completely stops the motor from making torque down low. I had to keep it above like 1500rpm to get up moderate hills or I would just slow down and stop. To get over obstacles I basically had to jump off them with the skid plates lol. I absolutely toasted a clutch between that and the Grand Canyon. But I would factor the motor and ecu into your talk also since I don’t think it’s just the cvt. I’ve been in a friends car who had XMode and his pulled way harder than mine up hills as well.
A manual transmission lacks a torque converter, so down low you don’t get torque multiplication. Also, sounds like your clutch was on its way out and that’s a factor as well. Check out my video “AWD vs. 4WD”. There’s a dual ranged swapped Forester. The driver talks about how his new setup is so much better than stock and he admits that his clutch was on its way out and how that really affected his climbing capability. The dual range setup is awesome btw, you should consider it.
@@JonDZ_Adventuringactually it was a brand new Exedy clutch… well it was brand new before I started 😂😂😂 I’ve looked at the dual range swaps but they are prohibitively expensive. Could you ask him where he sourced parts and what he did? I’d be really interested to talk more
@@NateFanning he went through “the ZF design” in Colorado. Everything installed was $8K if I remember correctly, but this included a front LSD. He also added a rear torq locker so his Subaru Forester doesn’t have any open diffs.
Buy a Touareg mine is 2006 4.2 V8 low range center lock differential, 2 in lift, 275 65 18 wrangler dura trac .😅
The air is WAY to thin at that height. Of COURSE these super capable vehicles are choking out under stress.
CVT is great gearbox but not for all usage. Noone gearbox is ideal.
Are hoy taking into account wheel size? Such bigger wheels increase grip, clearance, etc, but crawl ratio gets way worse if you leave the standard transmision gears
Jon, On this topic, can you comment on why the Subaru forester Wilderness made Sara n tuned’s hill climb and wilderness Outback failed!? Was it just slightly more momentum or is there something mechanical that the forester possess? Thanks for the great vid!
I can comment on this, while the outback has a more aggressive final drive on the rear differential, the forester wilderness has a much more aggressively tuned CVT with a first ratio of 4.11:1 which when paired with its final drive of 4.11:1 gives it a crawl ratio of 16.89.
Whereas the outback wilderness first CVT ratio is 3.49:1, which, when paired to its 4.44:1 final drive, gives it a crawl ratio of 15.49:1
Jon can probably comment with some more details if he does
Because the Forester Wilderness (16.7) has a better crawl ratio than the Outback Wilderness (14.3)
You said it great Dalton, but also imo, I observe the TR580 variants to have a better ability to lock up that torque converter. Also, the normally aspirated Subarus have a higher compression ratio vs. the turbo Subarus.
@@JonDZ_Adventuring That’s interesting thanks! I wonder what the Crosstrek wilderness will be!?
@@matthewjohnson1211 It has the same drivetrain as the FW. A crawl ratio of 16.7