It's hard to get a solid answer on the CVT issue and Subarus because many dealers say, the manufacturer says it's "lifetime fluid" and they won't service it particularly not at 30,000 miles if you look in the maintenance guide of a more modern Subaru it never mentions changing or replacing fluid it says "check CVT performance" But it doesn't ever mention fluid service at all… Subaru needs to clear this up!
Just pay for an additional manufacturer warranty to make it their problem when it fails. I have had 2 CVT Subarus (2015 Impreza, 2023 WRX gt) one with no servicing over 280,000 kms and still runs without any issue. I'm in Ontario and we get more snow than most and I'm not easy on my cars in the first place. Never had an issue with either transmission and other OWNERS I know tend to agree. I really feel like all these rumors are caused by butthurt simpletons who lament the death of the manual. Motorsports isn't manual, it's not faster.
Go to Mr. Subaru’s channel instead. The TR580 & 690 from Subaru (built in house and only by Subaru) are actually excellent transmissions, (especially 2017+). The problem has almost hardly been internally within them mechanically failing etc. The ACTUAL problem is/has been that Subaru of America* (only them) told clients that they WEREN’T supposed to service the fluid ever “sealed unit/lifetime” bs etc… and that ends up fouling the pressure solenoids in the valve body’s which then you need to (and should wisely) replace as a whole new valve body unit. Then countless people mistaken them for internal failure. There are ENDLESS examples of many Subaru folks getting 225k+ out of these trouble free as long as they’re properly cared for.. INCLUDING people towing regularly! I’m on a 2017 Crosstrek TR580 with 92k miles. Vehicle was in a front end wreck and got rebuilt title at 31k miles. Serviced the fluid twice so far, drives like new.
this is subaru cvt abuse. get it right subaru. i wont buy one . 5 or 6 speeds forever.....or normal time tested automatic. i like the stick cuz it lasts forever
Our 2011 outback went 12 years and 255,000 km no CVT problem. Our 2018 crosstrek has 160,000 km…no problems with that one either. Our 2022 Forester only has 34,000 km so too soon for that one. Remember folks…there is no such thing as a lifetime fluid on a car.
My 15’ crosstrek has 152k miles, no issues. I am at sea level and do mostly flat driving and treat it nice. First service at 90k mi, second one at 145k mi. I plan to keep shortening that interval. I keep that tachometer below 2.5k 99% of the time. So far my ownership experience has been stupid cheap and easy
@@Tsyras everything per the manual except the fuel filter. so far all of it diy except cvt. First cvt at 90k, second at 145k. Today I actually did my front bearings at 155k, horrible job if you’re in the rust belt. I did my rear bearings 1 year ago
Here's my tip, whenever a manual has a recommendation for "severe service" intervals, just follow that no matter how you drive. Fluids are cheap compared to diffs, transmissions and engines.
I tried. The dealer said it was a waste of money to change fluid before 100,000 and they didn't want to change it. That CVT started failing at 62,000 miles.
@@brinzy6160 2019. Why? Subaru says that the CVT fluid is a “Lifetime” fluid, but no Fluid, Grease or Oil will ever last a lifetime. Just ask any mechanic. Toyota, Honda, Ford, GM, Range Rover, etc all say to change your oil every 10K miles. This is because they can tout that their vehicles have Lower maintenance costs. But in reality they’re just interested in selling more vehicles. On my Tacoma, I change my oil every 6 months or 5K miles. It’s a 23 year model so my mileage is low (I only drive 8-10K miles per year), but I’ll be changing the front and rear differential, transfer case and transmission fluid every 30K miles because we use my Tacoma for work around our property and we enjoy taking it on forest and service roads. My wife’s Outback hasn’t given us any problems. I use to own a Forester Touring. After 4.5 years of owning that POS Lemon 🍋 it had only 15K miles on it because it was literally in the repair shop more often than in my garage. The last 12 weeks that I owned it, it was in the shop for 9 weeks. The CVT transmission went out at 4K miles and then at 12K miles. I’d be either driving it or parked and locked and the rear hatch would open. The low oil pressure light flickered constantly. The facial recognition system would fail 2-3 times per week. The radio would forget my preset stations. The eyesight would malfunction constantly, Subaru could NEVER get the remote start to work. My Forester was the BIGGEST POS to ever leave Japan. When Toyota was taking it for a test drive when I traded it in, I was literally praying that it didn’t break down. I was never so happy to get rid of a car in all of my life. I’ll NEVER EVER own another Subaru Ever again and when my wife’s Outback wears out, she wants to buy a Toyota Crown AWD hybrid, so that’s exactly what she’ll get.
The most common failure with the Subaru TR580 CVT is a valve body solenoid failure, not a total transmission failure. This is around an $800 part and can be replaced fairly easily from above in the engine bay. Not the end of the world. There have been numerous incremental improvements to the Subaru CVT, both mechanical and software, and it's now become fairly good and reliable.
Partly true. If you don't catch this solenoid failure quickly, it destroys the CVT. I have a friend with a 2018 Legacy with only 85,000. It started slipping and I told them to get their solenoid fixed. They brought it in, and it was too late - the mechanic said the belts were fraying and it was toast. So yes, if you recognize it quickly you can get up to 150,000 out of that transmission. But if you don't it will hit an early grave.
@@Buc_Stops_Here If a valve body solenoid has failed, it should throw codes and warning lights in the IC, so it's kinda hard to miss. The Subaru CVTs are also chain driven, so the "belts" don't fray. That said, you can still damage the pulleys the chain rides on.
@@ZeGermanHam So the dealer lied and probably it could have been fixed - unless the pulleys were damaged. They definitely gave my friend the wrong information. Thank you.
I have a 2018 Outback with over 360,000 miles on it. CVT works like a charm. Never serviced. It is 2.5i premium model. 90% of the miles are highway miles all over the US.
My 2016 2.0 Diesel Outback has 150hp and 350 nm power. High torque and CVT offer excellent comfort. After 241,000km (149K miles) it failed and I had to replace the transmission. This cost me $13750 in Turkey. 2.0 diesel engines also have the problem of engine block cracking after 200000 km. I hope it doesn't happen to me. If you want to buy a new Subaru Outback in Turkey, it is around 97K$. Those of you living in the USA are very lucky in this regard.
I’ve seen 2014, 15 and 18 foresters and outbacks well over 170,000…..no problems they maintain them but these TH-cam videos is not a cookie cutter for Subarus. CVTS are doing well soooo… and don’t forget Subaru has been working on CVTs since about 1990 one of the best out there.
I wish my area's experience matches yours. We don't see the same, we see solenoid failures around 80,000 to 100,000 which costs about $700 to replace (if you do it fast enough before damaging the CVT). I caught a friend who let it slip too long on the 2018 Legacy she had and the CVT was toast. Otherwise you can get about 150,000 with that one repair before the CVT needs replacing.
@@Buc_Stops_HereLMAO sounds like you’ve been believing in “lifetime fluid”. I DARE you to somehow smarten up and actually start servicing them properly every 30k and watch what happens
@@OneLeggedStormChaser No. My mechanic advises everyone to change their transmission fluid every 30,000 to 60,000 miles. The GM 6 speeds last about 200,000 miles no problem. So do the Mazda. The Subaru 5 speeds also last about 200,000. The only transmission that regularly will not last that long is the CVTs from Nissan and Subaru. They generally last 150,000 miles and in the Subaru case, the solenoid could need replacing between 90,000 and 100,000. I personally change my transmission (5 speed on the Subaru, 6 speed on the Buick) every 60,000 miles. The Subaru has 147,000 miles and no issues. The Buick is almost at 90,000 and no problems either. It is how you take care of your car of course and what transmission you have.
Thank You for those handy CVT oil change procedures.. I also feel with any make of car Manual or CVT, now SPT, " drive them with Respect " i have now owned 5 new Subaru WRX manual/cvt since 2005, with out any failure issues... A wonderful drivers Car 👍 Au
I am very glad I found this video. Super disappointed but better to know now.. Thought my next vehicle choice was made, however now I see it's not. Thank You All 🙌
First time Subaru Forrester owner. #1 reason I brought my 2019 Forrester was because of reliability.. Manual states “lifetime” (no service) NOTHING is “lifetime” MAKES MO SENSE! if my SUBI cut fails 150k I’ll NEVER buy another SUBI again!
Suburus haven't been reliable since the early 90s. The head gaskets were failing on them for over a decade. now I hear about CVT and timing chain failures. I remember the old square body legacies of the 80s being reliable.
Here is what you need to know. The solenoid on the CVT tends to fail between 80,000 and 100,000. That costs about $700 to replace. You will get about 150,000 on the life of that CVT in most situations. After that point it can fail at any time. They don't make it to 200,000 that much anymore.
We have driven 785000 miles in the seven Subarus we have owned. We plan on owning one more but it will have to be used. Unfortanately that the mileage of what we can afford approaches the 100,000 mile life of a CVT. We could not afford a $7000 transmission replacement at this point. We may have to say goodbye to the absolutely best AWD setup on the market. We have driven all over the US and all kinds of weather. So sad that a company we have been loyal can't make the CVT's checkable and serviceable. What are they thinking?
If they were rock solidly reliable, the no dipstick and lack of servicing intervals would be a non-starter, BUT they are not. Why risk your reputation over something that just makes sense to do?
Unfortunately Subaru Corporate only really cares about sales and maintenance dollars generated by the people buying cars new or lightly-used/certified from the dealer. Once the cars are out of the warranty period and sold second-hand/private party, SoA could generally care less.
The transmission light on the dash of my 2013 Subaru Forester came on at 90,000 kilometers or 56,000 miles when the car was 9 years old. The Subaru dealer in Pasig City, Metro Manila said that a solenoid malfunctioned and that the transmission fluid should be replaced. Replacement of the solenoid and transmission fluid cost me P144,000 or US2,600.00. That is a hefty repair cost on a car worth P500,000 or roughly US9,000 at that time. The owner's manual mentioned nothing about replacement of transmission oil.
I thought most markets outside the US have CVT services in the standard maintenance items. You did get hosed by the dealer. The solenoids in older Subaru CVTs are easy to get to as they’re right under the transmission pan. You can usually just replace the ones that are bad and you need to replace the fluid because you empty the transmission. Newer ones have an all in one assembly on top of the transmission, but it’s still relatively easy to get at without dropping the transmission out.
On our 2016 Forester, Subaru warrants their CVT transmission for 10yrs or 100K miles. There is no recommendation of servicing the CVT fluid in that time frame. Anyone get denied warranty coverage because they changed their fluid before 10yrs or 100k miles? Also, is the cleaning process you describe at 6:00 a recommended Subaru procedure?
You didn’t mentioned about the transmission oil filter. Do you to change the filter too? I know that is located in tha transmission pan. Wouldn’t be better to change it instead change only the oil?
The filter in the 580 isn’t serviceable. It’s up inside the case, and this is a major design flaw. The pickup screen can be replaced if you’re comfortable dropping the pan and resealing it with RTV. It’s not really necessary, though I do it every 100k to clean off the magnets. Let it drip for a LONG time to make sure your mating surfaces are free of oil.
one issue with the tr690 cvt is the drain plug sits a 1/2 inch above the bottom of the pan , so debris on the bottom of the pan does not drain out. there is a magnet in there however, also a non servicable filter besides the pickup. screen. Tr 580 has just a pickup filter. tge pans are glued on and no gaskets avaiksbke from Subaru. Also they only sell complete valve bodies not the solenoid valves. aftermarket can supply these though.
The 580 has a filter. It’s just INSIDE the transmission. These are replaceable with rebuild, and the 580 isn’t too difficult to rebuild with the right tools.
All of this leads me to believe that CVTs are made to be throwaway parts. They don’t seem to be designed to service. Only problem is that replacing them on a Subaru costs around $11k. It doesn’t add up and I can’t figure out why manufacturers use them.
I have a 1991 Subaru Legacy with an AT and it just turned over 400,000 miles and the transmission still shifts like it always had. We recently bought a 2021 Subaru Impreza and it has the CVT. I am a former mechanic and keeping your fluids fresh and clean is paramount for longevity. I am hoping the newer car can at least go 300k plus.
My car is an Ascent Limited 2021. What are the signs and phenomena that appear on the car that require transmission maintenance in general in Subaru? We, as a family, have an Impreza 2019 and a Forester 2022..thank you
I already learned my lesson with cvts with a cash bought 2010 nissan altima which wasnt a problem year apparently. The cvt failed thanks to the torque converter and because its a seal transmission i would need to replace the whole thing with no mention of fluid maintenance on the cvt. Suppose to be 25k for regular driving 20k if you beat on it.
My parents bought a 2015 brand new. They drive very mildly and the CVY went out at around 60k miles with symptoms of failing at 50k. They and I will never buy another Nissan again.
Thanks for the video, having owned a number of brands of vehicles over the years i understand that every brand had its own issues that you have to be aware of and deal with .. any thoughts about the merit of installing an additional cvt cooler on a gen 6 outback , used for some towing / off road driving . Can you do a video on this? Thanks
Does all wheel drive require all tires to match. Got a nail in one tire sidewall. Told had to buy 4 new. Tires less than year old Also spare is a donut Whats to do if on highway with small spare?
My moms 2013 Crosstrek has 230,000 on the original CVT. I just serviced it again. It has a little shake taking off. But I think that's the crap axle that she had replaced by some shady shop while I was in Florida.
I would recommend using the Subaru genuine one, I changed my own cvt fluid, decided to use the valvoline cvt fluid since it was the quickest way to change it since I do daily drive that car, so far no issues.👍
nissan cvt's are a dog. bmw used them and quit. they are not made by nissan. i forget the name, but, stay away. toyota and honda have very good cvt's. im weaary of any cvt. what i learned here today, makes me continue to want a stick as a base tranny in subarus. if they put a cvt as base in the brat, i will go buy elsewhere. base stick is the only way to go.
We crossed Subaru off the list due to the CVT and bought a 4Runner instead. Are people that buy these things just unaware of the failure risk when you get some miles on them or tow anything? More people would be interested Subaru cars/SUV'S if they offered a traditional 8-speed automatic. They don't even have to build one on their own, just go to ZF and purchase it off of them. Maybe offer an eight-speed auto as an upcharge. Many people would pay an extra $1,000 to get a reliable transmission vs. the default CVT.
I’ve owned multiple Subarus with CVTs. Never had any problems with close to 300k of service between them. I change the fluid every 25k miles and drive them reasonably. No issues and the oil analyses have always come back golden. The risk of failure is overblown IMO. The ones that break are usually in WRXs abused by vapebois.
is that "traditional" 8 speed a dual clutch? if so i wouldn't touch that thing with somebody else's ten foot pole. cvt's aren't the problem, it's leasing and poor consumer laws that cause component lifetimes to be measured in 3-5 years. as long as the parts barely outlive the warranty, things will not be changing.
Thanks for this video! You didn’t mention what a replacement cvt can cost? That’s a bit nuts… Is there a synthetic cvt fluid that might do better with heat? Are there ways to fit a cooler to newer cvt’s? Shame that Subaru is sacrificing reliability….and possibly customer retention. Reliability builds trust and value in the brand. Subaru has been proud of resale value and how long their cars stay on the road ! I’m a Subaru fan and would like to stay a fan!
You’re making some leaps. Subaru is still a reliable brand. Only use the Subaru fluid listed for your vehicle. CVT fluid is a fickle mistress. The CVTs already have a cooler. You may be able to add an auxiliary unit, but that’s above my pay grade. Drive it reasonably and maintain it. I’ve gotten over 300k miles of service out of my Subarus. They’re good vehicles if you treat them well.
Solenoids fail in many CVTs between 80,000 to 100,000 which cost about $700 to fix if you catch the slipping early. The transmissions last about 150,000 with that one repair. A new CVT when someone decided the slipping was okay when the solenoid went was about $6000. This is in Fairifield County in CT so prices may vary where you live (she got rid of her Subaru at 85,000).
I test drove a few brand new 2024 Subaru Impreza RS vehicles from different dealerships and all of them had a whining noise, some on acceleration, others off accelerator(coasting). Any ideas?
my 2017 impreza had a CVT transmission put 70k miles on it with 5 from the dealership never changed the fluid and never had a single problem with it, mine also had that whinning noise when i used the paddles and got into the high rpms in first gear or really any gear and i assume that is just to simulate how a manual would act in the higher rpms (never driven a manual car so im just taking a shot in the dark) but thats what i experienced in my ownership with a CVT subaru.
Ya you never drove those cars from the dealership pass the 100k kilometers. How can you know the transmission last that much. When someone works at a dealership , they just focus on selling you the car, get rid of their inventory and bye bye problems. They arent worried of seeing the car dying at the end. 😮
I see the Crosstrek Wilderness comes with a trans fluid cooling system the other CT do not come with. This pushes the stated tow rating from 1500 to 3500 lbs. Would putting a trans cooler on a regular Crosstrek be good insurance to get longevity from its CVT I wonder? I have a 2024 Crosstrek Touring (Premium) and might do some trailer towing at 1500lbs or so. I live in mountainous British Columbia.
I have a Nissan CVT. Nothing in the manual about changing the fluid. No dipstick, filler cap there but inaccessible without taking everything apart. There must be thousands of these out there. No problem so far though.
I was told by a Subaru service tech that it would be risky. Because the grit from the torque converter locking up and unlocking and the forward and reverse clutch packs engaging and disengaging with some of the friction material wearing off into the fluid (just like a regular automatic tranny does) helps the grip of the steel CVT belt on the variable pulleys. Changing the old fluid for new fluid decreases that friction, causing slippage of the steel belt on the pulleys. I have 85,000 miles on my 2018 Outback with no problems and no CVT oil changes. Also, Subaru has an extended warranty on the CVT tranny of 100,000 miles.
my was service at that mile, i was the thrid owner so I'm not sure if the previous owner did it. i was worry too, but it seem fine, its gonna be 90 very soon. but each to there our at your own risk.
You’re fine. CVTs don’t have clutch material that adds friction. The torque converter locks and unlocks, but if that goes you need a new unit anyway. The normal line pressure for the 580 is around 1,000psi. Do you think material contamination is doing anything to prolong the life of your transmission? The CVT fluid is what actually adds friction to the system, and that breaks down over time causing slippage and poor performance, which causes more heat, which causes failure. At 85k, I’d start with 3 drain and fills (17qts on the same side) and then do a single drain and fill at 100k, then a single drain and fill every 25k miles. If you need to get on it, be going at least 30mph so the converter is locked up. Racing is hell on CVTs. Drive them reasonably and maintain them well and they’ll be your reliable buddy for a long time. You’ll see earlier failure than if it had been maintained from day 1, but you’ll get more service out of it than if you did nothing. The accumulated clutch material is a factor in poorly maintained traditional automatics and most Subaru techs don’t know anything about how CVTs work because all they do is remove and replace them. The guy at my dealership told me there was no way to drain and fill them. I had to go to the parts department and buy gaskets for both the drain and fill plugs to illustrate it has both DRAIN and FILL plugs. Good mechanics are hard to find and most shops hire the handicapped because they’re fun to watch.
2018 forester, cvt tranny is failing at 78k km. Ofc just outside warranty.... too bad i didnt realize the slight gear slippage was a sign. now, out of warranty, it started ticking.
swapped the trans yesterday. the cvt2 fluid was mid brown, not black, no burnt smell. Looked like pretty decent condition for 78k km. So it looks like i just got bad luck with my cvt.
About $180 for 10qts of CVTF3 at my local dealer and I do my own labor. Prices vary by dealer and I’d recommend having a decent bidirectional scan tool. They’re spendy, but pay for themselves quickly. They make routine maintenance items like CVT services and brake fluid flushes very easy.
Ummm…. To my knowledge there have never been a Subaru CVT that had a dipstick as they considered sealed system. Seeing a sealed system with no leaks or air contamination would keep contaminates from getting in and no leaks means fluid doesn’t escape so why have a dipstick. However, that fluid WILL wear out and can get like sludge if never replaced.
Always thought it fishy and nonsensical to hear that the reason Subaru chooses to put cvts in their cars is because they're cheaper for them to put in their vehicles than other transmissions. Cheaper? If that's the case, why does it cost 8-11k for US, the consumer, to replace them when they go bad? Something doesn't add up.
Thank you for the truthful information. I remain on the fence with CVT because I know how expensive it can get with time. It looks like every time the transmission gets loaded issues can develop .
If I've already done 13,000km (80,000 miles) on a 2017 Outback, is it still ok to do a fluid change on the CVT? Or is it going to cause more problem by changing it...?
I'll be glad when they all see the error of using CVTs. I, for one, refuse to buy one, and omit any car with one from my shopping list, same as anything with a turbo. Just not worth the headaches or cost. Quickly negates any fuel savings.
Subaru doesn’t give clear guidance on servicing the cvt fluid. I have a 2015 outback 2.5 with over 140k and it runs like new. I only had the fluid serviced once at 120k per my dealer recommendations. However, I would service it more often on my new 2024 outback XT. I’ll probably drain and fill at 60k. My miles are mostly highway.
For turbo charged engines, there are videos out there that are a few years old where you need to idle the car after a long ride. That seems impactable. If after driving for an hour, once you get to a location, you just want to get out and go to where you are going. The idle time can be from 30 seconds to five minutes. Do you recommend idling a turbo charged engine after a ride?
Your CVT doesn’t have a turbo. You can turn it off, but make sure to have your transmission’s exhaust manifold checked for proper muffler bearing clearances every 30k miles.
I'm not a mechanic nor an engineer, but I don't see how a metal chain being pushed and pulled on 2 rotating metal drums, neither which have any teeth (think sprockets on a bicycle), can have any longevity. The amount of slippage due to no teeth on a metal drum, and just normal wear and tear have got to be a nightmare for heat and metal particulate matter being created then circulated by the fluid. Am I just totally missing things here, or is the above reasoning pretty much on the mark??
Want to know if even your Subaru dealer values your CVT vehicle? Try to trade it. I've never seen a vehicle depreciate as much as what I learned and my two earlier Subarus with real transmissions held their resale value well.
@@danielfair4675 Then why can I find Wilderness models for sale on Autotrader with under 10,000 miles that have already lost $10,000 in the first year? I know they used to have good resale because I traded two Subarus in during the past but recently tried to trade in my current model, lifted with a CVT and they acted like it was just about worthless. Have you checked lately with a CVT trade-in value?
@@danielfair4675 I just traded my Outback for a Chevy Colorado. I tried three different dealers and even went to my original Subaru dealer to check on a trade for another Outback. The original Subaru dealer offered three thousand dollars less than any of the other brand dealers. That was hard to believe when mine had a new CVT in it already but it definitely let me know that resale has now flopped compared to my 2005 and 2011 models that held their value well.
No dipstick on CVT transmissions? Another genius idea...so if the fluid for some reason leaks out how would one know? Auto maker would then blame the driver and refuse the repair...
I am a master mechanic. The number one reason Subaru uses a CVT is that they are significantly cheaper to manufacture. Not only does the CVT have a very short service life compared to other transmission designs, you cannot tow anything with the vehicle. If you do, the transmission will deteriorate even more rapidly. Most other manufacturers have discontinued the use of CVT’s in their vehicles due to customer dissatisfaction and complaints.
As I quickly websearched, Honda and Toyota still uses CVTs. Honda Civic 2025 is CVT only if I'm not deceived on the searches I did. Can you list "most other manufacturers" of ICU cars that dropped the CVT? Are they lying on their web when they say CVT is good for fuel economy? I would love more sources than "Pro mechanic with super knowledge"
Again more exaggerated loose talk misinformation about these. Go to Mr. Subaru’s channel instead. The TR580 & 690 from Subaru (built in house and only by Subaru) are actually excellent transmissions, (especially 2017+). The problem has almost hardly been internally within them mechanically failing etc. The ACTUAL problem is/has been that Subaru of America* (only them) told clients that they WEREN’T supposed to service the fluid ever “sealed unit/lifetime” bs etc… and that ends up fouling the pressure solenoids in the valve body’s which then you need to (and should wisely) replace as a whole new valve body unit. Then countless people mistaken them for internal failure. There are ENDLESS examples of many Subaru folks getting 225k+ out of these trouble free as long as they’re properly cared for.. INCLUDING people towing regularly! I’m on a 2017 Crosstrek TR580 with 91k miles. Vehicle was in a front end wreck and got rebuilt title at 32k miles. Serviced the fluid twice so far, drives like new.
Thank you for this, I have 2017 Impreza Sport Sedan and have been wondering about longivetty of the CVT, mind you, this technician is in the Pacific Northwest where there is a lot more harsh weather and inclines.
Some say yes. Some say no. They have to prove what you did caused the unit to fail and SOA is usually pretty easy to deal with. The way I look at it is this: I keep my vehicles for a long time, at least 200k miles. In that time I can either spend $720 in CVT fluid doing a single drain and fill every 25k miles and maybe have the transmission die out of warranty or spend nothing and DEFINITELY have the transmission break out of warranty. Either way, I’m not covered. Either way, it’s a big bill. I haven’t had one break yet. When it fails, it’s 95% certain to be out of warranty if you drive it with “lifetime” fluid. To me it’s an easy risk/benefit gamble. You may feel differently.
There is no such thing as "lifetime fluids". This is just a marketing strategy to reduce the cost of ownership, to make it seem less expensive to a prospective customer. The OEM fluid is a high quality lubricant, but it is not intended to be run for the life of the vehicle. It's designed to run the life of the warranty at minimum, so I guess in that regard, it is a lifetime fluid. If you want to keep your vehicle past 100k miles, you are better off not following the recommended intervals for fluid changes, do them sooner.
@@Doc1855there’s ambiguity here, MrSubaru made a video stating that he contacted Subaru Of America to get clear on the CVT maintenance intervals. They said that if the device is serviced unnecessarily before 100k miles that the warranty is void. But there are others who’s said when they brought this up with the dealership, they were told that SOA would honor their warranty if they could furnish satisfactory service records.
@Vincent-eo9cs have it serviced at a SUBARU Dealership ONLY as long as it's under warranty. Some folks say their Subaru Dealership wouldn't agree to changing it, some have had no issues getting them to. Find one that will, a phone call to any dealership is cheap.
*********** "No such thing as Lifetime fluid !!.......... I'm a Happy Subaru "Forester" owner with 135,000 Miles and a CVT .................. What CVT PROBLEMS ??? **************
@@hendrixandmitch Subaru, with it's CVT transmission, that you claim is so inferior, is the number 1 selling car in 7 of the most difficult States to drive in. Alaska, Colorado ,Maine, New Hampshire, Vermont, Washington and Oregon. J.D. Power data. Not Honda/Toyota/ Lexus. Thank You
Contrary to what this person is saying, Subaru CVT transmissions do not have torque converters. They use pulleys and a steel chain which is what makes them infinitely variable and hence the name. This video is nonsensical because even Subaru of Japan recommends service no sooner than 35,000 miles which is the most stringent recommendation regardless of the owner's driving habits. Subaru of Canada is close behind and Subaru of America says it's a "lifetime" fluid. That also makes no sense because no fluid can last a lifetime since that too is a variable dependent on the usage of the car. A reasonable interval is 60,000 miles unless the car tows or is being loaded to its limit frequently. If that is the case, then 30,000 miles should be sufficient.
I don’t understand … I’ve heard Subaru doesn’t want you to touch the transmission for the first 100.000 miles or you lose your warranty. Is this true ?
After 30 years with Subaru manual transmission foresters, I just bought a Mazda-no cvt. Subaru could win me back by offering the 6mt again, but that doesn’t seem to be in Subaru’s future, unfortunately.
So, you're saying that even with servicing at 30k miles, you're still only 'safe' for 100k??? I have a 2017 Forester that is at 104k. I've been told by multiple mechanics that the CVT is non-serviceable... that it's a closed system and opening it up can mess with it. As a lifelong Toyota owner, this car has been a huge disappointment. Bad wheel bearings, lower control arm bushing issues, other stupid stuff that should last longer than it has.
I cant help but think it might be how you drive. Or you just had bad luck. I have 2014 subaru has almost 300000 miles on it yes I did regulare cvt oil changes and oil and filter changes but no problems at all. Tire and battery changes thats about it.
@@dog_guy-c8x all of the things I mention in my post are known, common issues with my year model of Forester. I assure you my driving style has nothing to do with it. I was a mechanic for 6 years and I take meticulous care of my vehicles. Thankfully, I sold the thing while I could with a clear conscience and I'm back in a Toyota where I belong. I'm glad you've had good luck with your car but my guess is that you're been very fortunate.
@@MattSpaugh I did not mean to imply anything on your part. Its just that I see so many drivers today that seem to be in a mad rush and its hard for me to imagine that your not one of them. Ment no disrespect.
@@dog_guy-c8xis your Subaru a 6 cyl or turbo? I’ve heard the cvt for higher output Subarus is stronger? Also in the video it is mentioned that heat is a problem and the trans cooler was discontinued? Glad your Subaru is doing so well!
Look I'm having a problem. Everyone that I've listened to about draining fluid out of my 2015 outback. They have said that fill needs to out then the drain plug. Problem is they keep telling me that I need 8mm torxhead but my trainy needed a 50mm torxhead. I think the amount of torque required a so-called 8mm torxhead would destroy the 8mm. So do I have morphed CVT trainy. 8mm is the size of a very small alan head.
@@antolismirnoff5513 he got a new house and when he back out of his driveway other cars would come over the hill unexpectedly so he would speed up quickly , since then he has learned to wait
CVT crap was forced on us by the governments. They wanted better fuel economy. So by reducing the weight of the transmission by roughly 400 lbs, CVT provide a miniscule fuel savings. Instead of traditional steel gears CVT has belts and pulleys...not made from steel. It feels like you're driving a golf cart. Except, golf car is more robust and does not require maintenance.
I have 3 cars, all older than 25 years. All have huge mileage on them, some over 500,000. I have never, and I mean never change transmission fluid on any of them. I just add a bit if it gets low. They all work perfectly, lots of power and pull.
make the manual 5 speed or 6 speed the base transmission. if they want a cvt or regular automatic they can pay. or i wont buy a brat nor will many many others
I have a 2013 outback and I absolutely hate it the transmission failed 3 months after getting it I got the car with 118,000 and it only had 124,000 when it failed no pre warnings or anything it simply went into limp mode one day and costed me 1300 something dollars and now the catalytic converter went out thats another $2000 on it and I owe 8,000 on my 13,000 loan none of this should be happening further more the car now tries to stall when slowing down
@@KD-fu8ob actually no I never did see anything indicating transmission work was done either way it wasnt fun to deal with the fix especially when the warranty company you paid for just says NO
My wife’s 19 Outback has the WORTHLESS CVT fluid changed every 35K miles. She always wanted an Outback so I bought it for her 50th birthday. It’s been a great car, but when it has a major failure, she’ll go back to Toyota. She drove her Camry for 18 years and never had any problems with it.
They also state that you should have it checked every 30k miles… which requires opening the fill plug. They have to prove what you did caused the damage. Every other market has normal service intervals for the CVT. We don’t because people are illiterate and don’t follow the drain and fill procedure. 1. Drain fluid. Replace with new gasket and torque to 30Nm. Many will strip this because techs be dumbing. 2. Fill fluid WITH THE CORRECT FLUID (US dealer techs are notorious for not reading the fluid recommendation stamped on EVERY transmission). There’s a lot of fluids… and ONLY use Subaru fluids WITHOUT “boosters.” 3. Start engine and rev to 2400RPM to check line pressure. Make sure it’s over 43psi. If it isn’t, shut it down immediately. 4. If go, shift through gears, pausing for 5 seconds at each selection. 5. Make sure the temp stays between 95-113 (if memory serves). 6. With engine running in park, continue to fill until full. Usually 1-1.5qts. 7. Retighten fill plug with new gasket, but just enough to seal and double check your CVT temp to make sure it’s within range. 8. If NOGO, let cool and check again. 9. If GO, tighten fill to 50nM. 10. Go for a drive while monitoring total line pressure and temp. Line pressure should be between 750 and 1000psi under most driving conditions. Temps should stay below 200, though normal operating temperature is 180-235F. These are made to be serviced, it’s just cheaper for SOA to call it a sealed unit than deal with their dealership service network that’s at least partially voluntarily ignorant.
I will never buy another Subaru. 2012 Impreza 120k miles and it consumes a quart of engine every 900 miles and now the CVT transmission is slipping under load. What a POS !
So, we are saving gasoline but we are wasting CVT oil? I had over 300,000 miles on a 1964 Plymouth Fury with a three speed automatic. Never changed the fluid and never had any problems. They don't make them like they used too. Give me an old reliable car any day. I just don't trust these things and Subaru has lost a sale for me because they don't offer the manual transmission anymore.
Few idiotic ideas forced on car drivers: 1) CVT transmission 2) VVT (Variable Valve Timing) 3) TCV (Thermal controlled Valve....for engine coolant...instead of thermostat) 4) Soy covered electrical wiring (Environmentally and rodent friendly) 5) "Infotainment" system that never work as they should 6) Thin glass, especially the windshield...(Cracks for no reason) 7) Less and less steel and metal, more and more plastic, fiberglass, and fake rubber Cars were never this expensive and this crappy in quality. They are disposable junk. Not worth repairing.
It's hard to get a solid answer on the CVT issue and Subarus because many dealers say, the manufacturer says it's "lifetime fluid" and they won't service it particularly not at 30,000 miles if you look in the maintenance guide of a more modern Subaru it never mentions changing or replacing fluid it says "check CVT performance" But it doesn't ever mention fluid service at all… Subaru needs to clear this up!
Just pay for an additional manufacturer warranty to make it their problem when it fails. I have had 2 CVT Subarus (2015 Impreza, 2023 WRX gt) one with no servicing over 280,000 kms and still runs without any issue. I'm in Ontario and we get more snow than most and I'm not easy on my cars in the first place. Never had an issue with either transmission and other OWNERS I know tend to agree. I really feel like all these rumors are caused by butthurt simpletons who lament the death of the manual. Motorsports isn't manual, it's not faster.
Go to Mr. Subaru’s channel instead. The TR580 & 690 from Subaru (built in house and only by Subaru) are actually excellent transmissions, (especially 2017+). The problem has almost hardly been internally within them mechanically failing etc. The ACTUAL problem is/has been that Subaru of America* (only them) told clients that they WEREN’T supposed to service the fluid ever “sealed unit/lifetime” bs etc… and that ends up fouling the pressure solenoids in the valve body’s which then you need to (and should wisely) replace as a whole new valve body unit. Then countless people mistaken them for internal failure. There are ENDLESS examples of many Subaru folks getting 225k+ out of these trouble free as long as they’re properly cared for.. INCLUDING people towing regularly! I’m on a 2017 Crosstrek TR580 with 92k miles. Vehicle was in a front end wreck and got rebuilt title at 31k miles. Serviced the fluid twice so far, drives like new.
Dont go by subaru of America go by what japan says.
REPLACE THE CVT EVERY 30K PERIOD! IF THEY DON’T DO IT GO TO A DIFFERENT DEALER
this is subaru cvt abuse. get it right subaru. i wont buy one . 5 or 6 speeds forever.....or normal time tested automatic. i like the stick cuz it lasts forever
Our 2011 outback went 12 years and 255,000 km no CVT problem. Our 2018 crosstrek has 160,000 km…no problems with that one either. Our 2022 Forester only has 34,000 km so too soon for that one. Remember folks…there is no such thing as a lifetime fluid on a car.
I'm on 225,000 miles on the original CVT with no issues 2012 Impreza. I just kept up with 30k to 40k miles at the dealer.
2011 models had a real transmission.
My 15’ crosstrek has 152k miles, no issues. I am at sea level and do mostly flat driving and treat it nice. First service at 90k mi, second one at 145k mi. I plan to keep shortening that interval. I keep that tachometer below 2.5k 99% of the time. So far my ownership experience has been stupid cheap and easy
What services did you have done?
@@Tsyras everything per the manual except the fuel filter. so far all of it diy except cvt. First cvt at 90k, second at 145k. Today I actually did my front bearings at 155k, horrible job if you’re in the rust belt. I did my rear bearings 1 year ago
Here's my tip, whenever a manual has a recommendation for "severe service" intervals, just follow that no matter how you drive. Fluids are cheap compared to diffs, transmissions and engines.
Yes, but in the case of Subarus with CVT transmissions, they do not recommend changing the CVT fluid...you see why people are confused?
I tried. The dealer said it was a waste of money to change fluid before 100,000 and they didn't want to change it. That CVT started failing at 62,000 miles.
Yes indeed that's the way to go.
@@johnstrand2247go to a different dealer or a transmission shop.
It’s not that cheap to do a fluid exchange of a cvt, unless you do it yourself.
I just had the front and rear differential, transmission fluid and an oil change done on my wife’s Outback.
What year?
@@brinzy6160 2019.
Why?
Subaru says that the CVT fluid is a “Lifetime” fluid, but no Fluid, Grease or Oil will ever last a lifetime. Just ask any mechanic.
Toyota, Honda, Ford, GM, Range Rover, etc all say to change your oil every 10K miles. This is because they can tout that their vehicles have Lower maintenance costs. But in reality they’re just interested in selling more vehicles.
On my Tacoma, I change my oil every 6 months or 5K miles.
It’s a 23 year model so my mileage is low (I only drive 8-10K miles per year), but I’ll be changing the front and rear differential, transfer case and transmission fluid every 30K miles because we use my Tacoma for work around our property and we enjoy taking it on forest and service roads.
My wife’s Outback hasn’t given us any problems.
I use to own a Forester Touring. After 4.5 years of owning that POS Lemon 🍋 it had only 15K miles on it because it was literally in the repair shop more often than in my garage.
The last 12 weeks that I owned it, it was in the shop for 9 weeks.
The CVT transmission went out at 4K miles and then at 12K miles.
I’d be either driving it or parked and locked and the rear hatch would open. The low oil pressure light flickered constantly. The facial recognition system would fail 2-3 times per week. The radio would forget my preset stations. The eyesight would malfunction constantly, Subaru could NEVER get the remote start to work.
My Forester was the BIGGEST POS to ever leave Japan.
When Toyota was taking it for a test drive when I traded it in, I was literally praying that it didn’t break down.
I was never so happy to get rid of a car in all of my life. I’ll NEVER EVER own another Subaru Ever again and when my wife’s Outback wears out, she wants to buy a Toyota Crown AWD hybrid, so that’s exactly what she’ll get.
The most common failure with the Subaru TR580 CVT is a valve body solenoid failure, not a total transmission failure. This is around an $800 part and can be replaced fairly easily from above in the engine bay. Not the end of the world. There have been numerous incremental improvements to the Subaru CVT, both mechanical and software, and it's now become fairly good and reliable.
Partly true. If you don't catch this solenoid failure quickly, it destroys the CVT. I have a friend with a 2018 Legacy with only 85,000. It started slipping and I told them to get their solenoid fixed. They brought it in, and it was too late - the mechanic said the belts were fraying and it was toast. So yes, if you recognize it quickly you can get up to 150,000 out of that transmission. But if you don't it will hit an early grave.
@@Buc_Stops_Here If a valve body solenoid has failed, it should throw codes and warning lights in the IC, so it's kinda hard to miss. The Subaru CVTs are also chain driven, so the "belts" don't fray. That said, you can still damage the pulleys the chain rides on.
@@ZeGermanHam So the dealer lied and probably it could have been fixed - unless the pulleys were damaged. They definitely gave my friend the wrong information. Thank you.
Who cares what fails if it fails? Car does NOT proceed!
Solenoid died on my 2015 Legacy at 230,000...cost $2,000 to replace.
I have a 2018 Outback with over 360,000 miles on it. CVT works like a charm. Never serviced. It is 2.5i premium model. 90% of the miles are highway miles all over the US.
My 2016 2.0 Diesel Outback has 150hp and 350 nm power. High torque and CVT offer excellent comfort. After 241,000km (149K miles) it failed and I had to replace the transmission. This cost me $13750 in Turkey.
2.0 diesel engines also have the problem of engine block cracking after 200000 km. I hope it doesn't happen to me. If you want to buy a new Subaru Outback in Turkey, it is around 97K$. Those of you living in the USA are very lucky in this regard.
Diesel Ouback. Awesome
$97K for a new Subaru in Turkey? That is insane. You have to sell a lot of Turkish Figs for that!!!!!!!!!
I’ve seen 2014, 15 and 18 foresters and outbacks well over 170,000…..no problems they maintain them but these TH-cam videos is not a cookie cutter for Subarus. CVTS are doing well soooo… and don’t forget Subaru has been working on CVTs since about 1990 one of the best out there.
I wish my area's experience matches yours. We don't see the same, we see solenoid failures around 80,000 to 100,000 which costs about $700 to replace (if you do it fast enough before damaging the CVT). I caught a friend who let it slip too long on the 2018 Legacy she had and the CVT was toast. Otherwise you can get about 150,000 with that one repair before the CVT needs replacing.
@@Buc_Stops_HereLMAO sounds like you’ve been believing in “lifetime fluid”. I DARE you to somehow smarten up and actually start servicing them properly every 30k and watch what happens
@@OneLeggedStormChaser No. My mechanic advises everyone to change their transmission fluid every 30,000 to 60,000 miles. The GM 6 speeds last about 200,000 miles no problem. So do the Mazda. The Subaru 5 speeds also last about 200,000. The only transmission that regularly will not last that long is the CVTs from Nissan and Subaru. They generally last 150,000 miles and in the Subaru case, the solenoid could need replacing between 90,000 and 100,000. I personally change my transmission (5 speed on the Subaru, 6 speed on the Buick) every 60,000 miles. The Subaru has 147,000 miles and no issues. The Buick is almost at 90,000 and no problems either. It is how you take care of your car of course and what transmission you have.
Thank You for those handy CVT oil change procedures.. I also feel with any make of car Manual or CVT, now SPT, " drive them with Respect " i have now owned 5 new Subaru WRX manual/cvt since 2005, with out any failure issues... A wonderful drivers Car 👍 Au
I am very glad I found this video. Super disappointed but better to know now..
Thought my next vehicle choice was made, however now I see it's not.
Thank You All 🙌
First time Subaru Forrester owner.
#1 reason I brought my 2019 Forrester was because of reliability..
Manual states “lifetime” (no service) NOTHING is “lifetime” MAKES MO SENSE!
if my SUBI cut fails 150k I’ll NEVER buy another SUBI again!
Suburus haven't been reliable since the early 90s. The head gaskets were failing on them for over a decade. now I hear about CVT and timing chain failures. I remember the old square body legacies of the 80s being reliable.
Ok
Here is what you need to know. The solenoid on the CVT tends to fail between 80,000 and 100,000. That costs about $700 to replace. You will get about 150,000 on the life of that CVT in most situations. After that point it can fail at any time. They don't make it to 200,000 that much anymore.
I own a 2022 Forester Wilderness. Any thoughts good or bad about this trans in particular? Love the content! Wish I lived near you sir.
We have driven 785000 miles in the seven Subarus we have owned. We plan on owning one more but it will have to be used. Unfortanately that the mileage of what we can afford approaches the 100,000 mile life of a CVT. We could not afford a $7000 transmission replacement at this point. We may have to say goodbye to the absolutely best AWD setup on the market. We have driven all over the US and all kinds of weather. So sad that a company we have been loyal can't make the CVT's checkable and serviceable. What are they thinking?
subaru is brain dead on the cvt. i want a stick. transmission will last till the end of time.
If they were rock solidly reliable, the no dipstick and lack of servicing intervals would be a non-starter, BUT they are not. Why risk your reputation over something that just makes sense to do?
Unfortunately Subaru Corporate only really cares about sales and maintenance dollars generated by the people buying cars new or lightly-used/certified from the dealer. Once the cars are out of the warranty period and sold second-hand/private party, SoA could generally care less.
The transmission light on the dash of my 2013 Subaru Forester came on at 90,000 kilometers or 56,000 miles when the car was 9 years old. The Subaru dealer in Pasig City, Metro Manila said that a solenoid malfunctioned and that the transmission fluid should be replaced. Replacement of the solenoid and transmission fluid cost me P144,000 or US2,600.00. That is a hefty repair cost on a car worth P500,000 or roughly US9,000 at that time. The owner's manual mentioned nothing about replacement of transmission oil.
I thought most markets outside the US have CVT services in the standard maintenance items.
You did get hosed by the dealer. The solenoids in older Subaru CVTs are easy to get to as they’re right under the transmission pan.
You can usually just replace the ones that are bad and you need to replace the fluid because you empty the transmission.
Newer ones have an all in one assembly on top of the transmission, but it’s still relatively easy to get at without dropping the transmission out.
Your valve body needs to be replaced if the selenoids are giving you issues. It's a well known problem.
Thanks for giving us the US specs and mileage 😇
8
On our 2016 Forester, Subaru warrants their CVT transmission for 10yrs or 100K miles. There is no recommendation of servicing the CVT fluid in that time frame. Anyone get denied warranty coverage because they changed their fluid before 10yrs or 100k miles? Also, is the cleaning process you describe at 6:00 a recommended Subaru procedure?
Not having a dip stick is a real pain and only increases the cost of operation. They can’t be saving that much money.
they should make dipstick law.......sick and tired about hearing about the environment when car companies don't make cars serviceable
You didn’t mentioned about the transmission oil filter. Do you to change the filter too? I know that is located in tha transmission pan. Wouldn’t be better to change it instead change only the oil?
The filter in the 580 isn’t serviceable. It’s up inside the case, and this is a major design flaw.
The pickup screen can be replaced if you’re comfortable dropping the pan and resealing it with RTV.
It’s not really necessary, though I do it every 100k to clean off the magnets.
Let it drip for a LONG time to make sure your mating surfaces are free of oil.
one issue with the tr690 cvt is the drain plug sits a 1/2 inch above the bottom of the pan , so debris on the bottom of the pan does not drain out. there is a magnet in there however, also a non servicable filter besides the pickup. screen. Tr 580 has just a pickup filter.
tge pans are glued on and no gaskets avaiksbke from Subaru. Also they only sell complete valve bodies not the solenoid valves. aftermarket can supply these though.
The 580 has a filter. It’s just INSIDE the transmission.
These are replaceable with rebuild, and the 580 isn’t too difficult to rebuild with the right tools.
All of this leads me to believe that CVTs are made to be throwaway parts. They don’t seem to be designed to service. Only problem is that replacing them on a Subaru costs around $11k. It doesn’t add up and I can’t figure out why manufacturers use them.
I have a 1991 Subaru Legacy with an AT and it just turned over 400,000 miles and the transmission still shifts like it always had. We recently bought a 2021 Subaru Impreza and it has the CVT. I am a former mechanic and keeping your fluids fresh and clean is paramount for longevity. I am hoping the newer car can at least go 300k plus.
Then make sure you do the 30K maintenance ...
@@denniss1211 ->Thank you. You know I will. My 1991 just turned over to 410,000 miles and still running great.
My car is an Ascent Limited 2021. What are the signs and phenomena that appear on the car that require transmission maintenance in general in Subaru? We, as a family, have an Impreza 2019 and a Forester 2022..thank you
Thanks for sharing tips on how to maintain Subarus CVT.
I'm going with Mazda
While you won’t have transmission problems, you’ll have other problems.
Every brand has their weaknesses.
many have Jayco CVTs which are worse
@@albertmeyer246Not true, Mazdas do not use CVTs. Maybe you’re thinking of Nissan.
Careful with their new motors at high milage .
@albertmeyer246 no Mazda vehicles use Cvts , Jatco ( japanese automatic transmission company) is used in Nissan cars....they are problematic.
I already learned my lesson with cvts with a cash bought 2010 nissan altima which wasnt a problem year apparently. The cvt failed thanks to the torque converter and because its a seal transmission i would need to replace the whole thing with no mention of fluid maintenance on the cvt. Suppose to be 25k for regular driving 20k if you beat on it.
My parents bought a 2015 brand new. They drive very mildly and the CVY went out at around 60k miles with symptoms of failing at 50k. They and I will never buy another Nissan again.
Thanks for the video, having owned a number of brands of vehicles over the years i understand that every brand had its own issues that you have to be aware of and deal with ..
any thoughts about the merit of installing an additional cvt cooler on a gen 6 outback , used for some towing / off road driving . Can you do a video on this? Thanks
Subscribed. Please make more Subaru videos.
Does all wheel drive require all tires to match. Got a nail in one tire sidewall. Told had to buy 4 new. Tires less than year old
Also spare is a donut
Whats to do if on highway with small spare?
My moms 2013 Crosstrek has 230,000 on the original CVT. I just serviced it again. It has a little shake taking off. But I think that's the crap axle that she had replaced by some shady shop while I was in Florida.
Great video. Is it necessary to use Subaru fluid? Thanks.
I would recommend using the Subaru genuine one, I changed my own cvt fluid, decided to use the valvoline cvt fluid since it was the quickest way to change it since I do daily drive that car, so far no issues.👍
Maybe that is only Subarus sold in Utah we see very few problems with them. They are by far better than Nissan CVTs.
nissan cvt's are a dog. bmw used them and quit. they are not made by nissan. i forget the name, but, stay away. toyota and honda have very good cvt's. im weaary of any cvt. what i learned here today, makes me continue to want a stick as a base tranny in subarus. if they put a cvt as base in the brat, i will go buy elsewhere. base stick is the only way to go.
@@Mr00934JATCO.
We crossed Subaru off the list due to the CVT and bought a 4Runner instead. Are people that buy these things just unaware of the failure risk when you get some miles on them or tow anything? More people would be interested Subaru cars/SUV'S if they offered a traditional 8-speed automatic. They don't even have to build one on their own, just go to ZF and purchase it off of them. Maybe offer an eight-speed auto as an upcharge. Many people would pay an extra $1,000 to get a reliable transmission vs. the default CVT.
I’ve owned multiple Subarus with CVTs. Never had any problems with close to 300k of service between them.
I change the fluid every 25k miles and drive them reasonably.
No issues and the oil analyses have always come back golden.
The risk of failure is overblown IMO. The ones that break are usually in WRXs abused by vapebois.
is that "traditional" 8 speed a dual clutch? if so i wouldn't touch that thing with somebody else's ten foot pole.
cvt's aren't the problem, it's leasing and poor consumer laws that cause component lifetimes to be measured in 3-5 years. as long as the parts barely outlive the warranty, things will not be changing.
So many problems, well documented. I wouldn't touch with a barge pole.
Good luck with your Dodge.
Thanks for this video!
You didn’t mention what a replacement cvt can cost? That’s a bit nuts…
Is there a synthetic cvt fluid that might do better with heat?
Are there ways to fit a cooler to newer cvt’s?
Shame that Subaru is sacrificing reliability….and possibly customer retention.
Reliability builds trust and value in the brand.
Subaru has been proud of resale value and how long their cars stay on the road !
I’m a Subaru fan and would like to stay a fan!
You’re making some leaps. Subaru is still a reliable brand.
Only use the Subaru fluid listed for your vehicle. CVT fluid is a fickle mistress.
The CVTs already have a cooler. You may be able to add an auxiliary unit, but that’s above my pay grade.
Drive it reasonably and maintain it.
I’ve gotten over 300k miles of service out of my Subarus. They’re good vehicles if you treat them well.
Solenoids fail in many CVTs between 80,000 to 100,000 which cost about $700 to fix if you catch the slipping early. The transmissions last about 150,000 with that one repair. A new CVT when someone decided the slipping was okay when the solenoid went was about $6000. This is in Fairifield County in CT so prices may vary where you live (she got rid of her Subaru at 85,000).
The Subaru engine and transmission fluids are synthetic.
I test drove a few brand new 2024 Subaru Impreza RS vehicles from different dealerships and all of them had a whining noise, some on acceleration, others off accelerator(coasting). Any ideas?
my 2017 impreza had a CVT transmission put 70k miles on it with 5 from the dealership never changed the fluid and never had a single problem with it, mine also had that whinning noise when i used the paddles and got into the high rpms in first gear or really any gear and i assume that is just to simulate how a manual would act in the higher rpms (never driven a manual car so im just taking a shot in the dark) but thats what i experienced in my ownership with a CVT subaru.
Differentials. It’s normal. Mechanical things make sounds.
Ya you never drove those cars from the dealership pass the 100k kilometers. How can you know the transmission last that much. When someone works at a dealership , they just focus on selling you the car, get rid of their inventory and bye bye problems. They arent worried of seeing the car dying at the end. 😮
I see the Crosstrek Wilderness comes with a trans fluid cooling system the other CT do not come with. This pushes the stated tow rating from 1500 to 3500 lbs. Would putting a trans cooler on a regular Crosstrek be good insurance to get longevity from its CVT I wonder? I have a 2024 Crosstrek Touring (Premium) and might do some trailer towing at 1500lbs or so. I live in mountainous British Columbia.
So for Toyota Hybrid eCVTs also the same rule? there is no dipstick and nothing in the manual.
I have a Nissan CVT. Nothing in the manual about changing the fluid. No dipstick, filler cap there but inaccessible without taking everything apart. There must be thousands of these out there. No problem so far though.
So what would be your recommendation if you have not yet serviced the CVT fluid by 85000 miles? At that point is it risky to service?
I was told by a Subaru service tech that it would be risky. Because the grit from the torque converter locking up and unlocking and the forward and reverse clutch packs engaging and disengaging with some of the friction material wearing off into the fluid (just like a regular automatic tranny does) helps the grip of the steel CVT belt on the variable pulleys. Changing the old fluid for new fluid decreases that friction, causing slippage of the steel belt on the pulleys. I have 85,000 miles on my 2018 Outback with no problems and no CVT oil changes. Also, Subaru has an extended warranty on the CVT tranny of 100,000 miles.
my was service at that mile, i was the thrid owner so I'm not sure if the previous owner did it. i was worry too, but it seem fine, its gonna be 90 very soon. but each to there our at your own risk.
You’re fine. CVTs don’t have clutch material that adds friction. The torque converter locks and unlocks, but if that goes you need a new unit anyway.
The normal line pressure for the 580 is around 1,000psi. Do you think material contamination is doing anything to prolong the life of your transmission?
The CVT fluid is what actually adds friction to the system, and that breaks down over time causing slippage and poor performance, which causes more heat, which causes failure.
At 85k, I’d start with 3 drain and fills (17qts on the same side) and then do a single drain and fill at 100k, then a single drain and fill every 25k miles.
If you need to get on it, be going at least 30mph so the converter is locked up. Racing is hell on CVTs.
Drive them reasonably and maintain them well and they’ll be your reliable buddy for a long time.
You’ll see earlier failure than if it had been maintained from day 1, but you’ll get more service out of it than if you did nothing.
The accumulated clutch material is a factor in poorly maintained traditional automatics and most Subaru techs don’t know anything about how CVTs work because all they do is remove and replace them.
The guy at my dealership told me there was no way to drain and fill them. I had to go to the parts department and buy gaskets for both the drain and fill plugs to illustrate it has both DRAIN and FILL plugs.
Good mechanics are hard to find and most shops hire the handicapped because they’re fun to watch.
When you just do a simple drain, it's only half the cvt fluid. Don't do a flush, just the drain and refill, about 6qts of the 13qt capacity.
2018 forester, cvt tranny is failing at 78k km. Ofc just outside warranty.... too bad i didnt realize the slight gear slippage was a sign. now, out of warranty, it started ticking.
swapped the trans yesterday. the cvt2 fluid was mid brown, not black, no burnt smell. Looked like pretty decent condition for 78k km. So it looks like i just got bad luck with my cvt.
So what is the cost for this double flush every 30K milles?
About $180 for 10qts of CVTF3 at my local dealer and I do my own labor. Prices vary by dealer and I’d recommend having a decent bidirectional scan tool.
They’re spendy, but pay for themselves quickly. They make routine maintenance items like CVT services and brake fluid flushes very easy.
$200 avg.
@@danielfair4675 Thank you, will tell my wife's girlfriend who recently purchased a used Forester.
@@danielfair4675 tks
Great video. I wish you were closer. I would bring mine over. Thanks for the knowledge...
Keep in mind a fluid change on one of these is around $300 and up.
Ummm…. To my knowledge there have never been a Subaru CVT that had a dipstick as they considered sealed system.
Seeing a sealed system with no leaks or air contamination would keep contaminates from getting in and no leaks means fluid doesn’t escape so why have a dipstick. However, that fluid WILL wear out and can get like sludge if never replaced.
Japanese maintenance is 30k , US dealers want your CVT to fail . If the stealership says no demand it or go to a Independent and keep the records.
Subaru CVT’s are built by a Toyota owned company. Also at 15k drain and refill with Amsoil and you will never have to worry about it.
Is that 100% fluid replacement?
@@denniss1211 just a drain and fill. No need to cycle, drain and refill.
Always thought it fishy and nonsensical to hear that the reason Subaru chooses to put cvts in their cars is because they're cheaper for them to put in their vehicles than other transmissions. Cheaper? If that's the case, why does it cost 8-11k for US, the consumer, to replace them when they go bad? Something doesn't add up.
The screen failed on our outback and Subaru said that they didn’t make it and wouldn’t cover it.
Is it the current large screen? That’s terrible of them!
140k miles 11 years for mine. Shop said unable to repair. 2013 outback
I was told by a Subaru Tech, it didn't need servicing because it was lifetime. Have it recorded also.
Thank you for the truthful information. I remain on the fence with CVT because I know how expensive it can get with time. It looks like every time the transmission gets loaded issues can develop .
If I've already done 13,000km (80,000 miles) on a 2017 Outback, is it still ok to do a fluid change on the CVT? Or is it going to cause more problem by changing it...?
Change/service it ASAP. And then every 20-30k
Does the 2019 Ascent allow for a complete fluid exchange for CVT transmission?
If you do anything to it in the first 100,000 miles. You could void the 100,000 mile warranty
Not true ...... SUBARU won't void your warranty if it's done at one of their dealerships.
I'll be glad when they all see the error of using CVTs. I, for one, refuse to buy one, and omit any car with one from my shopping list, same as anything with a turbo.
Just not worth the headaches or cost. Quickly negates any fuel savings.
I will never own a turbo !
Subaru doesn’t give clear guidance on servicing the cvt fluid. I have a 2015 outback 2.5 with over 140k and it runs like new. I only had the fluid serviced once at 120k per my dealer recommendations. However, I would service it more often on my new 2024 outback XT. I’ll probably drain and fill at 60k. My miles are mostly highway.
can/do you service modern Alfa Romeos?
Does the 2024 outback wilderness have a separate cooler for the CVT?
All of the 2020+ CVTs have external coolers
For turbo charged engines, there are videos out there that are a few years old where you need to idle the car after a long ride. That seems impactable. If after driving for an hour, once you get to a location, you just want to get out and go to where you are going. The idle time can be from 30 seconds to five minutes. Do you recommend idling a turbo charged engine after a ride?
Isn't that too keep cooling the turbo for a bit before shutting off? Doesn't really relate to CVT being good or bad?
Your CVT doesn’t have a turbo. You can turn it off, but make sure to have your transmission’s exhaust manifold checked for proper muffler bearing clearances every 30k miles.
I'm not a mechanic nor an engineer, but I don't see how a metal chain being pushed and pulled on 2 rotating metal drums, neither which have any teeth (think sprockets on a bicycle), can have any longevity. The amount of slippage due to no teeth on a metal drum, and just normal wear and tear have got to be a nightmare for heat and metal particulate matter being created then circulated by the fluid.
Am I just totally missing things here, or is the above reasoning pretty much on the mark??
Great, just the fucking news I needed to hear today....
Want to know if even your Subaru dealer values your CVT vehicle? Try to trade it. I've never seen a vehicle depreciate as much as what I learned and my two earlier Subarus with real transmissions held their resale value well.
Lol, Subaru's have one of the highest resale value per manufacturer.
@@danielfair4675 Then why can I find Wilderness models for sale on Autotrader with under 10,000 miles that have already lost $10,000 in the first year?
I know they used to have good resale because I traded two Subarus in during the past but recently tried to trade in my current model, lifted with a CVT and they acted like it was just about worthless.
Have you checked lately with a CVT trade-in value?
@@danielfair4675 I just traded my Outback for a Chevy Colorado. I tried three different dealers and even went to my original Subaru dealer to check on a trade for another Outback. The original Subaru dealer offered three thousand dollars less than any of the other brand dealers. That was hard to believe when mine had a new CVT in it already but it definitely let me know that resale has now flopped compared to my 2005 and 2011 models that held their value well.
No dipstick on CVT transmissions? Another genius idea...so if the fluid for some reason leaks out how would one know? Auto maker would then blame the driver and refuse the repair...
I am a master mechanic. The number one reason Subaru uses a CVT is that they are significantly cheaper to manufacture. Not only does the CVT have a very short service life compared to other transmission designs, you cannot tow anything with the vehicle. If you do, the transmission will deteriorate even more rapidly. Most other manufacturers have discontinued the use of CVT’s in their vehicles due to customer dissatisfaction and complaints.
Nissan has a bad reputation with CVTs. Hondas I believe are better.
As I quickly websearched, Honda and Toyota still uses CVTs. Honda Civic 2025 is CVT only if I'm not deceived on the searches I did. Can you list "most other manufacturers" of ICU cars that dropped the CVT? Are they lying on their web when they say CVT is good for fuel economy? I would love more sources than "Pro mechanic with super knowledge"
Is another reason the CVTs give another mile or two to the gallon?
No car manufacturer quit using CVT's; the number of cars using them expands every year.
That's why I recently bought a Honda Civic Type R, with manual transmission. I avoid a CVT transmission like the plague.
I love this classic sales pitch by this guy. This will fool quite a few but don’t be fooled by this crap.
Again more exaggerated loose talk misinformation about these. Go to Mr. Subaru’s channel instead. The TR580 & 690 from Subaru (built in house and only by Subaru) are actually excellent transmissions, (especially 2017+). The problem has almost hardly been internally within them mechanically failing etc. The ACTUAL problem is/has been that Subaru of America* (only them) told clients that they WEREN’T supposed to service the fluid ever “sealed unit/lifetime” bs etc… and that ends up fouling the pressure solenoids in the valve body’s which then you need to (and should wisely) replace as a whole new valve body unit. Then countless people mistaken them for internal failure. There are ENDLESS examples of many Subaru folks getting 225k+ out of these trouble free as long as they’re properly cared for.. INCLUDING people towing regularly! I’m on a 2017 Crosstrek TR580 with 91k miles. Vehicle was in a front end wreck and got rebuilt title at 32k miles. Serviced the fluid twice so far, drives like new.
Thank you for this, I have 2017 Impreza Sport Sedan and have been wondering about longivetty of the CVT, mind you, this technician is in the Pacific Northwest where there is a lot more harsh weather and inclines.
I have a 2018 Forester. Does it have the access flush tubes for continuous flush?
Dealership here in N. Georgia says 60K for drain / refill. I'll do 30K. $325.00 with a coupon.
You’re paying $250 for 30min of labor and 3hrs of letting your car cool down.
My legacy has 14000 mi and is 8 years old. Drain and fill. No problems. Plus additive. No big deal
Oops. That additive is going to be a problem. ONLY use the Subaru fluid.
I wanted a Subaru, but the CVt scared me away.😢
Why does Subaru say the fluid is lifetime. If I have Subaru drain the fluid, will I void the warranty?
Some say yes. Some say no. They have to prove what you did caused the unit to fail and SOA is usually pretty easy to deal with.
The way I look at it is this: I keep my vehicles for a long time, at least 200k miles.
In that time I can either spend $720 in CVT fluid doing a single drain and fill every 25k miles and maybe have the transmission die out of warranty or spend nothing and DEFINITELY have the transmission break out of warranty.
Either way, I’m not covered.
Either way, it’s a big bill.
I haven’t had one break yet.
When it fails, it’s 95% certain to be out of warranty if you drive it with “lifetime” fluid.
To me it’s an easy risk/benefit gamble. You may feel differently.
NO, it Doesn’t void the warranty.
I just had the CVT on my wife’s Outback done last week
There is no such thing as "lifetime fluids". This is just a marketing strategy to reduce the cost of ownership, to make it seem less expensive to a prospective customer. The OEM fluid is a high quality lubricant, but it is not intended to be run for the life of the vehicle. It's designed to run the life of the warranty at minimum, so I guess in that regard, it is a lifetime fluid. If you want to keep your vehicle past 100k miles, you are better off not following the recommended intervals for fluid changes, do them sooner.
@@Doc1855there’s ambiguity here, MrSubaru made a video stating that he contacted Subaru Of America to get clear on the CVT maintenance intervals. They said that if the device is serviced unnecessarily before 100k miles that the warranty is void. But there are others who’s said when they brought this up with the dealership, they were told that SOA would honor their warranty if they could furnish satisfactory service records.
@Vincent-eo9cs have it serviced at a SUBARU Dealership ONLY as long as it's under warranty.
Some folks say their Subaru Dealership wouldn't agree to changing it, some have had no issues getting them to.
Find one that will, a phone call to any dealership is cheap.
You convinced me, not to buy a car with a CVT!
All cars will eventually have CVTs
So go with Electric car 😅😂
And I Stay with Subaru 👍
@@Honestandtruth007 I would go with the world leader Tesla but I live in an apartment that does not allow charging ...
*********** "No such thing as Lifetime fluid !!.......... I'm a Happy Subaru "Forester" owner with 135,000 Miles and a CVT .................. What CVT PROBLEMS ??? **************
Subaru has the best CVT in the market. Why do people spread this crap?
Overall yes they do especially the high torque 690 where it can handle more torque then most think.
honda/toyota/LEXUS make the best CVT’S
@@hendrixandmitch Subaru, with it's CVT transmission, that you claim is so inferior, is the number 1 selling car in 7 of the most difficult States to drive in. Alaska, Colorado ,Maine, New Hampshire, Vermont, Washington and Oregon. J.D. Power data. Not Honda/Toyota/ Lexus. Thank You
@@tonyp9609 i never said it was inferior but the are better CVT’S. honda and toyota make the best
@@hendrixandmitch Your quote was that unfortunately you are seeing catastrophic failures. Does that mean inferior? Thanks
Contrary to what this person is saying, Subaru CVT transmissions do not have torque converters. They use pulleys and a steel chain which is what makes them infinitely variable and hence the name. This video is nonsensical because even Subaru of Japan recommends service no sooner than 35,000 miles which is the most stringent recommendation regardless of the owner's driving habits. Subaru of Canada is close behind and Subaru of America says it's a "lifetime" fluid. That also makes no sense because no fluid can last a lifetime since that too is a variable dependent on the usage of the car. A reasonable interval is 60,000 miles unless the car tows or is being loaded to its limit frequently. If that is the case, then 30,000 miles should be sufficient.
LOL yes they DO use* torque converters! Do you know WHAT a torque converter is/does? 🤦♂️
I don’t understand … I’ve heard Subaru doesn’t want you to touch the transmission for the first 100.000 miles or you lose your warranty.
Is this true ?
Doing a drain and fill on a CVT is more involved than doing one on a Chevy turbo 350.
After 30 years with Subaru manual transmission foresters, I just bought a Mazda-no cvt. Subaru could win me back by offering the 6mt again, but that doesn’t seem to be in Subaru’s future, unfortunately.
So, you're saying that even with servicing at 30k miles, you're still only 'safe' for 100k??? I have a 2017 Forester that is at 104k. I've been told by multiple mechanics that the CVT is non-serviceable... that it's a closed system and opening it up can mess with it. As a lifelong Toyota owner, this car has been a huge disappointment. Bad wheel bearings, lower control arm bushing issues, other stupid stuff that should last longer than it has.
Those arm bushings are like that
I cant help but think it might be how you drive. Or you just had bad luck. I have 2014 subaru has almost 300000 miles on it yes I did regulare cvt oil changes and oil and filter changes but no problems at all. Tire and battery changes thats about it.
@@dog_guy-c8x all of the things I mention in my post are known, common issues with my year model of Forester. I assure you my driving style has nothing to do with it. I was a mechanic for 6 years and I take meticulous care of my vehicles.
Thankfully, I sold the thing while I could with a clear conscience and I'm back in a Toyota where I belong. I'm glad you've had good luck with your car but my guess is that you're been very fortunate.
@@MattSpaugh I did not mean to imply anything on your part. Its just that I see so many drivers today that seem to be in a mad rush and its hard for me to imagine that your not one of them. Ment no disrespect.
@@dog_guy-c8xis your Subaru a 6 cyl or turbo? I’ve heard the cvt for higher output Subarus is stronger?
Also in the video it is mentioned that heat is a problem and the trans cooler was discontinued?
Glad your Subaru is doing so well!
100,00 miles??? That is a joke
👏🏽 More Subi content!
Look I'm having a problem. Everyone that I've listened to about draining fluid out of my 2015 outback. They have said that fill needs to out then the drain plug.
Problem is they keep telling me that I need 8mm torxhead but my trainy needed a 50mm torxhead. I think the amount of torque required a so-called 8mm torxhead would destroy the 8mm.
So do I have morphed CVT trainy. 8mm is the size of a very small alan head.
If you have a CVT and want to make big power go to Level10 transmissions problem solved.
My sons brand new 20 Impreza had the cvt replaced at 44k miles
Your son probably hammered it playing WRX cosplay.
Wow what did he do ? I have 4 of them and the lowest milage is 45,000 miles no issues and original fluids .
@@antolismirnoff5513 he got a new house and when he back out of his driveway other cars would come over the hill unexpectedly so he would speed up quickly , since then he has learned to wait
3 year lease…3 year warranty. Sell them for more than buyout … no problems
CVT crap was forced on us by the governments. They wanted better fuel economy. So by reducing the weight of the transmission by roughly 400 lbs, CVT provide a miniscule fuel savings. Instead of traditional steel gears CVT has belts and pulleys...not made from steel. It feels like you're driving a golf cart. Except, golf car is more robust and does not require maintenance.
I have 3 cars, all older than 25 years. All have huge mileage on them, some over 500,000. I have never, and I mean never change transmission fluid on any of them. I just add a bit if it gets low. They all work perfectly, lots of power and pull.
make the manual 5 speed or 6 speed the base transmission. if they want a cvt or regular automatic they can pay. or i wont buy a brat nor will many many others
@$30-$40 a quarter that’s an expensive service indeed
Aren't the CVT's sealed and not checkable?
I have a 2013 outback and I absolutely hate it the transmission failed 3 months after getting it I got the car with 118,000 and it only had 124,000 when it failed no pre warnings or anything it simply went into limp mode one day and costed me 1300 something dollars and now the catalytic converter went out thats another $2000 on it and I owe 8,000 on my 13,000 loan none of this should be happening further more the car now tries to stall when slowing down
When you bought the car, did you receive the full maintenance records?
@@KD-fu8ob actually no I never did see anything indicating transmission work was done either way it wasnt fun to deal with the fix especially when the warranty company you paid for just says NO
My wife’s 19 Outback has the WORTHLESS CVT fluid changed every 35K miles.
She always wanted an Outback so I bought it for her 50th birthday.
It’s been a great car, but when it has a major failure, she’ll go back to Toyota.
She drove her Camry for 18 years and never had any problems with it.
Toyota seems to be having some major issues of their own now
@@johnmitchell2741 Yes and Toyota owns 40% of Subaru now
20%
@@matthewstewart2262 Thanks for clarifying my typo. I appreciate it.
you might not have a major problem but yes replace the CVT fluid every 30k
dive a stick. or real automatic. cvt is a gamble
I guarantee it if you put Amsoil CBT fluid in those transmissions, they will last much much longer
Do not put anything but Subaru fluid in especially under warranty.
Opening CVT voids the warranty.. take that to the bank.. subaru clearly states that..
They also state that you should have it checked every 30k miles… which requires opening the fill plug.
They have to prove what you did caused the damage. Every other market has normal service intervals for the CVT.
We don’t because people are illiterate and don’t follow the drain and fill procedure.
1. Drain fluid. Replace with new gasket and torque to 30Nm. Many will strip this because techs be dumbing.
2. Fill fluid WITH THE CORRECT FLUID (US dealer techs are notorious for not reading the fluid recommendation stamped on EVERY transmission). There’s a lot of fluids… and ONLY use Subaru fluids WITHOUT “boosters.”
3. Start engine and rev to 2400RPM to check line pressure. Make sure it’s over 43psi. If it isn’t, shut it down immediately.
4. If go, shift through gears, pausing for 5 seconds at each selection.
5. Make sure the temp stays between 95-113 (if memory serves).
6. With engine running in park, continue to fill until full. Usually 1-1.5qts.
7. Retighten fill plug with new gasket, but just enough to seal and double check your CVT temp to make sure it’s within range.
8. If NOGO, let cool and check again.
9. If GO, tighten fill to 50nM.
10. Go for a drive while monitoring total line pressure and temp. Line pressure should be between 750 and 1000psi under most driving conditions. Temps should stay below 200, though normal operating temperature is 180-235F.
These are made to be serviced, it’s just cheaper for SOA to call it a sealed unit than deal with their dealership service network that’s at least partially voluntarily ignorant.
Drain and fill is not “opening”. They recommend drain and fill in the manual if driving under heavy conditions.
Not if a Subaru Dealership does the work.
BTW, your bank is closed.
Taking away something as simplistic as a dipstick is really stupid, I'll never buy one.
I will never buy another Subaru. 2012 Impreza 120k miles and it consumes a quart of engine every 900 miles and now the CVT transmission is slipping under load. What a POS !
So, we are saving gasoline but we are wasting CVT oil? I had over 300,000 miles on a 1964 Plymouth Fury with a three speed automatic. Never changed the fluid and never had any problems. They don't make them like they used too. Give me an old reliable car any day. I just don't trust these things and Subaru has lost a sale for me because they don't offer the manual transmission anymore.
You're FOS first off the Plymouth fury is an insanely rare car and in the 1950's and 1960s people were replacing their car every 3 or 4 years.
The concept of latitude is lost here. Just drain and refill every 30k.
Few idiotic ideas forced on car drivers:
1) CVT transmission
2) VVT (Variable Valve Timing)
3) TCV (Thermal controlled Valve....for engine coolant...instead of thermostat)
4) Soy covered electrical wiring (Environmentally and rodent friendly)
5) "Infotainment" system that never work as they should
6) Thin glass, especially the windshield...(Cracks for no reason)
7) Less and less steel and metal, more and more plastic, fiberglass, and fake rubber
Cars were never this expensive and this crappy in quality. They are disposable junk. Not worth repairing.
Let’s talk about the overall decline of Subaru quality….
Since when? I’ve had nothing but good luck with my Subarus and have well over 300k miles of service between them.