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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 14 ธ.ค. 2024
- One of the most common questions I get about Pathfinder 2e is how Counterspell works! Well it's actually part of an entire system known as "Counteract Effects". In this video, I go over the basics of Counteract Effects and how Counterspells work with them!
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Counteracting is one of those aspects of the system that is honestly really easy when you learn it, but the language involved is so convoluted that it makes it so hard for you to do it.
Exactly! The complicated part is determining "Counteract Levels" and what you actually use to perform a counteract check. Once you know how that works, it's simple.
they should explain it in french xD
Guidance CANNOT BE USED to help counteract checks, because the spell only applies to "one attack roll, Perception check, saving throw, or skill check".
Thanks for the video, Nonat, great content as always, keep up the good work!
Oh, you're totally right! Counteract Checks don't count as Skill Checks or Spell Attack Rolls, so I'm totally wrong! Thank you for pointing that out!
I love PF2e, but I definitely agree with others, Paizo really screwed the pooch here. This was well done; I could have used this while learning the system last year.
Other areas I’ve noticed where people struggle and could use breakdown videos like this: Stealth & all that comes with it (sneak, hide, seek, hidden, undetected, and even invisible and the like), how shit the detect magic & read aura spells are vs. how most people just assume they’re played (I combine them as Detect Magic Aura in my campaigns and it works out just fine; not overpowered), and how dispel magic is treated.
It’s not a Paizo product if there aren’t a few needlessly complicated concepts.
May Sarenrae bless you for this common parlance explanation of a weird complicated system.
And then may someone immediately counteract it ;)
Good luck! Guidance isn't even on the arcane spell list! The only thing that could counteract it is a Divine Sorcerer!!
Thanks for the video! I've seen a few videos on how to counteract, and they tend to go into greater detail which is almost to their detriment - it always made the process feel like it required much more than it actually does.
You kept is simple where it was supposed to be simple and then expanded on it after the main point was made and explained, which really helped! I feel like I get counteracting much better now!
That's exactly what I was trying to do, and it you have no clue how happy it makes me to get a detailed comment like this! Thank you so much!!!
Simple and sweet. Another great video.
Great video. There are some weird edge cases when it comes to counteract, Treat condition (Medic Archetype Feat) throws out the idea of counteract level entirely and just has you rolling Medicine vs the DC of the condition with its own set of results based on the levels of success, this simultaneously makes Treat condition a lot more powerful and also weaker. Determining the DC to counteract with Treat Condition can be tricky too, monsters have effects that aren't strictly afflictions, like the Cinder Rats Fetid Fumes effect. I've seen arguments for using the DC 22 fort save as the counteract DC and also the Level DC of the Cinder Rat.
That's true, it can get a little trick in some cases, but luckily Paizo added in a solid fallback you can almost always rely on. If you're ever unsure of the DC of a condition or anything that came from a creature, you can always rely on this text from page 458 of the CRB.
"If an effect’s level is unclear and it came from a creature, halve and round up the creature’s level."
great explanation, saved me a lot of headaches.
BUT: can the arcana check to recognize the spell on a success reveal the level on which the spell is cast?(or on a crit success?) thus would allow the counteracting person to specifically choose the chances how likely they will counteract it(by picking a higher lvl spellslot/prepared spell for the counteract).
A really succinct explanation of one of the rougher elements of PF2. Wish the book had made it this clear, it would have saved a lot of time staring at the page.
Haha, that's what I'm here for! To stare at the page FOR you!! Thanks for watching!
Love it! This is something I've been needing to learn.
It's a weirdly simple concept that's tough to explain, so I'm glad I was able to help you learn it!!
counteract checks were honestly the hardest thing for me to understand when reading the rules. Now that I know how they work, I find it pretty intuitive, but the wording written makes it sound confusing.
Counterspell in PF2 is really limited. I would still take it on a wizard, because there are ways to use it better once you grab specific feats (ie Quick Recognition general feat and Clever Counterspell wizard feat)
2E's version of counterspelling has one *MASSIVE* advantage over 1E's version, though:
It's a *reaction.* In 1E you have to ready an action to counter a spell, effectively skipping your turn (and wasting your turn if the enemy decides not to cast anything). The only way to do it as a reaction was through very specific builds that most classes didn't have access to.
Nonat, thank you for the best possible explanation! I broke my head trying to get it from my new precious glimmering shining Core Rulebook.
This was a great video! It will make it much easier for me to communicate to people how counteract works!
I'm so glad you've found it useful!! Thanks for watching!!
This video has been incredibly useful! Thank you!!
Good explanation of the counteract system, much more straightforward than it may read.
What I am still curious about, is knowing when to use it. I play a sorcerer in society with counterpsell, an enemy was casting a spell, the GM asked do you have recognize spell? I do not, but I have counterpsell. Both of these activities cost a reaction. Is recognize spell just for spells I myself do not already have in my repitoire and I can recognize them for free for the purpose of counterpsell, or do I have to recognize spells I already know, then when they cast that spell for a second time, I can now counterpsell?
Yea this and the stealth system are the two I only learned after building characters that used them. They're not exactly intuitive haha
For sure. I'll definitely be covering the stealth/hidden/observed system in the near future! That one is equally difficult to understand but can lead to some VERY hefty advantages if used correctly.
Oh thank the Mother of Monsters!!! I can finally understand counterspell and counteract!!! Praise Lamashtu!!!
So, i suppose that the initial role play at the biginning of the video doesn't work that way, since if you have the spell prepared or in your repertoire you automatically know what the spell is, including the level to which it is heightened, according to CR in "Identifying Spells". However, my question is: RAW, could you counter a spell that a sorcerer with the APG "Elaborate Flourish" feat casts?
I mean, the only ways that i can find to identify the spell are:
1.if you have the spell prepared or in your repertoire you automatically know what the spell is, including the level to which it is heightened. This is dennied by the APG feat
2. Spend an action in your turn to recall knowledge. Too late to counter
3. Spend a reaction with the Recognize Spell skill feat. Nice, now you know what the spell is but doesn't have a reaction left to counter
Y'know, that's a fair point. I did not know that. Thank you for teaching me that!
And elaborate flourish is interesting then, yeah. Almost contradicting itself. The only way I can see that working, is either:
A. Your GM is nice and let's you roll Arcana for free like in my skit
or
B. You can identify it AFTER it's been cast on your next turn, and attempt to counter it if they cast it AGAIN.
You can use Quick Recognition feat, which allows to recognise spells as a free action.
"demilich raises his palm"
demiliches don't have HANDS
UNSUBBED. XD
(jk)
I was young and foolish back thennnnn!!!
Very clear explanation, thanks!
Thanks for the breakdown
Hey Nonat1s I think either you or me are misreading the Witch/Wizard Counterspell feat, but regardless it seems unclear:
I think that "that same spell" is the same spell as the triggering spell, and that the prepared spell you expend isn't necessarily the same spell.
In my reading "A creature Casts [a Spell] that you have prepared, you expend a prepared spell (me: in other words expend a spell slot) to counter the triggering creature’s casting of [that same spell]." makes this clear, as I think Paizo would have wrote "A creature Casts a Spell that you have prepared, you expend a prepared spell to counter the triggering creature’s casting of the spell expended as part of Counterspell." if that was their intention for the feat.
With an example, my reading is "A creature uses the Cast a Spell action to cast Burning Hands which you have prepared, you expend a prepared spell to counter the triggering creature’s casting of Burning Hands."
If I'm right, and RAW is unclear enough IMO that I think I might be, then it becomes a fair bit more usable and easier to pull off.
basically you have to cast fireball to counter fireball
I feel like wizards just get the shaft over and over again in 2e...
Hey i was wondering how to work out the dc of the counteract check against an item say for casting darkness against an ever burning torch
Or would darkness automatically suppress the light for its duration or would the torch keep glowing
Thanks
Great explanation.
Commenting here and in the discord? Myself and the Algorithm thank you.
@@Nonat1s of course. Much love
OK I was taking a break from engineering homework to make some grub and I was watching this video waiting for the pasta to boil. Then that video sent me over the edge. Blam! My noodle explodes all over the counter and I don't mean my food. I was not prepared.
FEEL THE KNOWLEDGE COURSE THROUGH YOUR BRAIN!! And don't forget to salt your water when you make pasta!
@@Nonat1s my cranium runneth' over!
The CRB could have benefited from a couple examples.
Dispel Magic? Light vs. Darkness?
Very helpful!
Re-subscribed as you are back doing PF2e
How does counterperformance operate then please?
Is the counteract level of Counterspell really the level of the spell slot, or is it 1 because Counterspell is a level 1 feat?
You should have also specified the range (if any) of a counterspell in the video.
Interestingly, there's no listed range. It's only "as long as you can see it's manifestations". So as long as you're close enough to identify the components, you can counter it. (Likely up to GM discretion)
@@Nonat1s It almost surely wouldn't be spell range. As that would almost surely invalidate all touch spell counteracts.
How about a video on how to prepare as a gm?
Should Counterspell work on Cantrips? It seems that by RAW it should, but it feels broken beyond measure.
nice video. It was simple and informative.... I wish that Paizo used and aproch more usable for the conterspell.... it a little more useful than Pathfinder 1st but for me is not something tha will be used often because is incredible niche on his aplication...
It's definitely not the most intuitive part of the system lol. I can see what they were trying to do with the entire "Counteract" system to make a ton of different things function the same way, but it definitely didn't go perfectly.
@@Nonat1s I think the counteract system is well though and is more interesting than "I cast remove curse and the curse is gone automatically"... I think they could use a better way to counter spell like the trigger is "a foe casta a spell that also is in you tradicion spell list" it will have more game uses than "you have to know exactly the same spell (regardless the lvl of course)"
I have to say, this is one area where 2E REALLY screwed up. They managed to make it far more complicated than it already was. On top of that, magical counteract actions will often be very limited by the spell levels available and prepared. This is a rare situation where I'll say D&D 5E did this much better. Counterspelling in 1E was ridiculous unless you were an Arcanist or something similar that had special rules. Counterspelling in 5E is ridiculously simple: there's a spell for that. And the lowest level of the spell has at least a _chance_ to counterspell _any_ spell level.
Now you need a feat to counterspell, and the right feat depending on the class, and there are other feats to modify whether you can counterspell, and you likely need the exact spell to counter, and..... you actually have to understand the rules. And amazingly, somehow, _counterspelling_ is the one area where partial success/failure hardly matters.
In 5e counterspell makes casters the best way to defeat a caster, which is not good design.
@@aevum6667 5E counterspell allowed for functional wizard duels. The best way to defeat a caster is still to get a hard-hitting meleer up close and kill the caster. Counterspell allows casters to be functionally useful to that meleer as support against the other caster.
There's also magic weapons that can counteract things...
I like how signature spell interacts with counterspell. Really flavorful that you know the spell so well you can use any of you magical spell tiers to attempt to counterspell it.
Well explauned, I get it now.
Demi lich raises a hand... LIES!
Came here to say this
Wow, Wizards and Witches have it rough. Do you think they should have made a Counterspell spell to let a mage counter spells they don't know? Or should Wizards and Witches have an Improved Coutnterspell feat letting them use other spellslots to counter a spell?
I think "Improved Counterspell" would be an AWESOME feat. Somewhere around level 10 or 12. Maybe let them spend a spellslot to counter ANY spell, but the Counteract Level of this effect counts as though it were one or two levels lower? That way it's incredibly versatile, but weaker than having the exact spell.
Or hell, maybe just make that a whole new Wizard Thesis they can pick from Level 1!
@@Nonat1s I've spent some time pondering this notion, and I think there's actually some really solid design space for a Countermage archetype. It would probably have to dedicate in at 6th or 8th, but having a feat tree that lets you, say, counter with any prepared spell from the same school as the target, maybe some warding magic that can kick up a target's saves against the next spell to hit them once a day, and then at the top end give the Countermage a spell slot at their spellcasting level that can only be used to counter with.
@@havedicewillsave493 Countermage Archetype sounds AWESOME. It could have access to several of the upcoming Magus feats that absorb spells and whatnot.
Wixards do have Clever Counterspell, which lets them counter any spell that they have in their spellbook or appropriate "opposite spell" (albeit at a -2 penalty on the check). I agree that they could use a few more options for counterspelling though, especially for non-Wizards.
I would also love to see them have more specialixed Arcane Thesis options, though. The Focused Arcane Schools from 1E were pretty damn cool (the Admixture specialization for Evocation was a favorite of mine), and I think they'd still work pretty well in 2E after some tweaking.
@@Groundlord Yeah, at 12th level though. Totally agree a new Thesis of Countermagic would be a great way to handle this
...how do I do that?
But what about in 1e?
Counterspell sounds like a pain in the ass to use.
It is
Recommended?
I watch you on 1.25x the speed so often that I'm starting to think it's normal and that 1x (normal) speed is slow...
Demiliches dont have paws they are just skulls
Not too bad, took some getting used to and the video helped, still better than 5e counterspelling.
31 seconds ago. I got here fast
It's a new record!!!
MAN if you are going to use BLACK ADDER then you NEED TO PLAY THE BLACK ADDER THEME SONG
Wow, Counterspell is awful, good to know
Disappointed that he covered counteracting afflictions but not counteracting spells and magic with spells like Dispel Magic or interactions between Darkness and Light spells. It's essentially the same thing, but you don't halve the level of the thing you're attempting to counteract and that difference could be confusing for people that are just watching the video and not reading the rules carefully.
"really simple"
I’m more than halfway through the video. So what I’m hearing is that in pathfinder counter spell sucks
I2 years later, I think what makes counteracting so damn confusing is that they use that one word is all those different ways.
I get that it's the same mechanics, and it makes sense to use the same word, but it's so counter-intuitive to "counteract" a poison... you don't "counter" a poison, you heal a person who's poisoned.
It's the vocabulary that feels just so out of place.
Actually it's not that hard.