Set your Recurve Brace Height like a Pro | Archery Tuning Series Episode 8
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 5 ก.พ. 2020
- How to find the best possible brace height for your specific setup, what brace height affects, how does it impact your tune? All of these things covered in this video.
Follow my step by step process to set the optimal brace height for any of your given set ups.
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This is a multi-part series that goes completely over how to setup and tune your Olympic Recurve taking it out of the box and competing on the worlds biggest stage, the Olympic Games.
Link to Tuning Series playlist:
• Tuning Series
Link to Form Series playlist:
• Form Series
All of the info that will be in these clips are covered in depth and more plus active Q and A during seminars that we are hosing across the world.
Check out www.JakeKaminski.com for books and seminar info!
Social media links:
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I think you have achieved what you set out to regarding this channel. I am new to this sport and it's pretty daunting. But every time I search a question that I have, one of your videos will come up without fail. You really have created a powerful resource for new archers. Thank you for the effort and the information.
Moin Jake,
I 've tuned a lot of recurve bows in my life and I was talking to many archers, but I didn't notice, that there are TWO best points of brace hight, especialy the recomended lower one. Many thanks this video!
And go on, please!
Thank you for making these videos. It is helping immensely.
Hey Jake, thanks for another great video.
One thing to other viewers - when Jake says don't look at limb tip when stringing the bow, this is actually really important. There was an accident few years ago in my country when some girl lost her eye when stringing her bow. So be careful, this can happen.
When I string or unstring the bow, I always move my face out of the possible kickback of the limbs.
Enjoyed this video, for general flinging, I normally do a quick fist brace height rather than use my square, so it is interesting to see an indepth tekkie sort of explanation of how brace height affects performance.
I thought it was a bit heavy going, however, the bit about brace height increase/decrease made more sense. Thanks for the video
Great work Jake, your explications of brace height was very useful and more important how can we use it and when. thanks a lot for your work in this videos i can’t wait when you talk about the button this is an other world in that piece of the bow.
In my whole country with world no 1 archers no one is sharing their knowledge . Thank you so much sir
As a barebow guy who’s getting back into archery after an almost year long break it’s awesome to see you’re back too. I love your videos for picking out things from the Olympic side of the sport to see if they work for me.
I know you said you weren’t into Patreon, but I think you should reconsider. There are a lot of us these days who don’t pay for traditional media sources. We prefer to spend our hard earned money on specialized in-depth content like you produce. We’re stoked to see our money used to buy products for independent testing and research in a manner we don’t have the time, resources or knowledge to produce. It’s a source of funding that has led to a lot of quality content being produced on a variety of subjects that wouldn’t be otherwise wouldn’t be available.
Thanks. I’m considering it more. Buut I am currently working on some apparel to start and a book about to launch too. Keep posted...
Thank you very much for showing in metric measurements as well very much appreciate
When tuning the brace height I shoot on a horizontal line, starting from the lower bh and setting the sight to hit the line. Then I got up with bh. Arrows usually starts to hit above the line, and have a maximum height over the line then start to fall again. The highest arrows bh setting is the one I use. Lot of work as changing bh will change you nock height also.
Jake’s the man
Way I was taught is,
add rest,
make sure string is centered,
add stabilizers and tiller,
add nocking point
then arrow to string,
add plunger set at 1/2 tension and thread plunger in while keeping stiffness at 1/2 tension to where arrow point is just off side of string.
Bare shaft tune arrows planning to use.
Then at 15 or 20 yards go to lower brace height and shoot a couple arrows add a twist and shoot a couple more and keep doing until at highest brace height reccomended.
Whatever arrow set was highest in target is the go to brace height.
Then can reset nocking point if needed and sight in.
Really do appreciate these videos mate- it’s great to remind ourselves of the basics sometimes.
Could you do one a vid of your grip modifications and a how to?
Cheers
-J
Yes I will
Another great video. Just starting to learn could you do a video on bow noise. So we can understand what you mean with high, low and punchier brace heights.
Hey Jake, first of all thank you for such a comprehensive series.
It's made tuning & form training much easier now having an organised catalogue to reference.
Secondly, you mention riser geometry reflex design & how that effects brace/tune/tiller values on the Hoyt HP series...is the GPX also affected this way? It would really explain my trouble with the 7.75 - 8.25 BH window better than the limbs not being made by Hoyt! Cheers.
“For you people who use metric”
That would be the vast majority of the worlds population I believe.
I know. I like to pretend that SAE is better.
Mostly everyone asks “what’s that measurement in metric” instead of grabbing a converter available online. Kinda just heading off those questions.
Just multiply inches by 2.54 for cm, easy conversions…
Jake i have to thank you so much. This videos are great. I reade couple of archery books but your special tips and detailed explanation are outstanding.
I like to have lower brace hight aswell but for me the best feeling is 10mm under the recommended minimun setting. What do you think about it?
thank you for this great explanation and addressing the noise factor in brace height. One question... in the lower, preferred brace height with more noise and vibration after the arrow is gone, how does the noise and vibration level affect limb life and limb integrity? I am concerned about destroying the limbs or shortening their life span.
Thank you for mentioning that you have to give attention to the limb manufacturer's brace high recommendation. I'm shooting Border HEX6.5-H limbs on a Hoyt Prodigy, which has the HPX geometry. Border recommends a BH of 7.0" to 7.75". I found my optimum BH at 7.0"-7.1". This is really really low for an olympic recurve. At tournaments I'm beeing asked quite a lot of times about this low brace hight.
Do they recommend that height on the HPX or in general?
@@JakeKaminskiArchery, not at the recommendations. There they postulate a neutral riser like GMX. It took one year for me to realise that the Prodigy has a special geometry. Recording to the recommendations of the riser's geometry I recently tried a BH of 6.7, but it was too low. The bow shot too hard and was vibrating enormously, the groups increased. Sid from Border recently wrote in his facebook channel that he got a couple of requests according to combinations of less deflex rises and HEX limbs. You really have to know many about tiller, brace height an tuning, if you want to setup such a bow in a proper way.
Jake, brace height effect on the arrow discussion...as much question as answer, higher brace has reduced power stroke as a minor effect and as a major, as the angle between the string and grip is reduced the space/time between the release of the nock on the string decreases. This decrease would be similar to the difference between rifle and pistol. The arrow nock would be traveling straight longer and thus magnifying the tangent that causes paradox.
Hopefully that makes sense.
Information I'm kind of missing is:
-When do you measure the brace height? right after stringing, after a quick test pull or after 1 or more shots? My brace height tends to lose a few mm / about 1/8th of an inch after shooting
-What margin is acceptable when checking your brace height, as in how accurately do you set it?
I chalk up the brace height forgiveness thing to Archery Bros passing on knowledge
Jake, I shoot traditional and I like the brace height to be around 8,5 inch, reason is that the “calmness” of the bow keeps me more consistent, may be its just me, but I just do more errors with a low brace height, that said I dont mind the reduction of speed as I dont shoot above 30m
As a beginner - confused, lost in the middle - is it comprehensinve, etc., but for newbie people and not native speakers, not so easy. Some practical example should be nice - on one specific bow.. Otherwise nice videos from Jake, especially about "form", aiming, and so on. thank you.
My Ben Pearson cougar is a reflex-deflex longbow.....still scratching my head about that one.
Thanks for another great video....do you usually set your nock height at 3/16" above?
Once again thank you.
Quick question, is the arrow the determining factor in brace height or would the bow find it regardless of what arrow was used ?
hi Jake. can you make a video about injuries in archery? ah i got finger injury on drawing arm and tendinitis on bow arm. at elbow. how much rest would you recommend. i was overshooting. but took 3 weeks break. still feeling pain in fingers. took meds and applied ointment etc...
Hi Jake!
In general, how many twists are appropriate on a string? Do they make any difference to arrow flights and groups?
Hi Jake, first of all a million thanks for sharing your treasure, it means a lot to so many archers around the world. I share your videos in my context and I hope this work bounces back in the way you desire. So glad you're present again.
I live in Sweden and would like to participate in one of your workshops in the archery style you master, Coach Kisik Lee´s, when you're around in Europe again.
For now a have a simple question that is related to string length, turns of the string, brace height and in relation to all this comes the question: Is there a sweet spot for best performance of limbs /" bow system" in the turns of the limb bolts in a Hoyt factor 27" riser specifically or any other riser whith limbolts in general?
I find the limb bolts more or less change the feel of how the weight comes on. Not really a sweet spot persay. It depends on what you like to feel.
It’s fairly complicated but I can do a video explaining my experience on that in the future.
@@JakeKaminskiArchery Thank you! a video on that would be nice!
Ok, the first five minutes I found difficult to follow; got much better for me afterwards.
It usually comes full circle.
Jake,old Hoyt Radian riser and W&W Inno Power limbs,36#-68",now 9". OK? Length 29".
My bow are not quiet, I guess because the whole is very old. Like me.
Hi Jake. During a competition, if you notice that your brace change about 2 milimeters, do you "rebrace" it or let it go?
In adding or removing twists barebow archers see a difference in doing it from top or bottom limb 😉
why? the string is one long piece of fancy twine. the twists will even out over the entire length of the string after a shot or two.
ray king IDK. Barebow archers are weird 😀
@@rayking3466
Issa joke
Can you discuss this with a standard long bow?
Thanks thanks thanks 🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥
Thanks.
@@JakeKaminskiArchery When there will be another video about technique? really looking forward to expantion and release.
Please teach us how to string and unstring the bow with your method.. my uukha limb tip is so small, it so hard to use bow stringer to string the bow
Thank you
zul amer use a bow stringer that has one arm and one cap, don’t use two cap end stringers
Sir.... I'm from India and my range is 145 meter so what should my brace hieght?
How many twice should be has a string minimum and maximun?thanks
If I measure Brace height from grip to string verses string to plunger there is a 1/4 in difference .. Which is best way to measure ?
I think it was Lieu in "Recurve Fundamentals" that talked about recurve stability in terms of the tips opening up. If you think of it that way, a higher brace height being more forgiving might derive from the tips being more open to a point of more stability upon release of the arrow/nock. Absent that it seems counter-intuitive to me since the limbs want to be at a resting point unstrung and the closer they get to that the more stability I would expect.
I’ll have to check the tips being opened more. Your poundage doesn’t go up despite your brace height being changed so I would assume the limb tips do not open up more.
I’ll check and let you know
@@JakeKaminskiArchery They would have to since nothing but the string length has changed.
It changes at brace height. But the full draw position doesn’t change. You shortened it at rest, Which doesn’t Always change it at full draw. I do a video on that bow weight changing myth with BH next week.
@@JakeKaminskiArchery I was just referring to the effect upon finishing a shot. With a shorter string the limbs would be more constrained open and finish more open than with a longer string (ergo higher brace height). I don't have a dog in it, I simply remembered the book reference. I suspect very high level archers could tell a difference in "forgiveness" but I know I will never notice it. When I was younger maybe...
L Parker ohh I misunderstood. I thought you meant at full draw. My bad!
I always wondered how the string twist made a difference. When I bought my equipment they said "keep the twist" but didn't explain how or why. Fantastic explanation. You mentioned to not adjust the brace height after finding the ideal place... How do you disassemble your bow and maintain the same twist? I've always just taken my string off and loosely put it away in its container, but never paid attention to the twist amount or trying to preserve it.
U maintain the twists by checking the brace height everytime u setup ur bow. Make sure the brace height is the same every time
I’ll do a video on a couple options for that in the future.
You probably have the big loop of your string on the top limb, so when you take the tension of the string you slide this loop over your limb. Then take you stringer off the bottom (smaller) loop and move that one to the top limb as well and slide it over.
You now have from the tip you small loop and then your big loop over you top limb and the will keep your twists in place.
You just have to use the same motion to put the small loop from bottom limb to top limb and use the reverse motion when you assemble your bow and move the small loop to the bottom limb.
But do double check now and then as you may lose a half twist now and then. And always string de string from the same side of the bow (i always do it from the left side of the bow.)
Hope it makes sense :D
@@windyblower1211 So - assembling and setting up my bow to begin a practice could take a really long time? When I travel to my archery club I usually have just an hour of shooting - if I spend time re-verifying this and other things every time, I'm not sure I'll have time for an effective practice. What do you recommend?
@@FrancSchiphorst Thats a great idea. I usually store the string in the tube it came in, but keeping in on the limbs makes great sense!
What is your thoughts on adjusting your braces height until you get the highest groups on the target at either 50m or 70m. I learned this from Sjef. You start low on your brace height and you shoot groups plotting their location as you increase you’ll see the groups rise at the target. As you continue to increase the BH you’ll start to see the groups drop again. The brace height just before the groups start to drop is said to be the mist ideal location to maximize the performance of the bow. Call me later if you want more details.
Jason Vaccarello JV did Jake ever get back to you about this. I’m curious.
I'm curious too. I read this in the WA intermediate recurve tuning guide, attributed to Marcel van Apeldoorn, Netherlands coach (so probably where Sjef got it from). Haven't tried it yet.
I usually determine the brace as follows: I start from the lowest recommended point of the brace, shoot 7 arrows at 20 meters, exclude the worst and measure (and write down) the horizontal diameter of the group (I don't care about the vertical diameter). I repeat the process 3 or 4 times. Then, I add 4 turns on the string and repeat the process until the maximum of the brace is reached. So I see what is the brace that gives me smaller groups. I do this in diferent days because of tiredness that can influence the diameter of the groups. Do you think I do well?
I wouldn’t use it as a group tuning tool. I would use it for the feel of the bow. Then do fine tuning with nock height and button pressure. I haven’t gotten there yet in my series but I will. Stay tuned...
i live in the uk and i to use inches and so do many of us mind you i am a good old Irish boy
Sir can you please tune that wooden training bow behind you until its shoot the best it could shoot
Im quite new. What do you do when you unstring the bow, and pack up? How do you make sure the brace height is the same if it's all about string twist?
Three things that I'm aware of. You should keep your string waxed while the string is still on the bow. Use a bowstring wax and wax only the bowstring itself, not the end or centre servings. I think Jake probably has a video on how to do that, so search his channel videos for a proper demonstration. A properly waxxed and burnished string will retain its circular cross-section better as well as its twists. Secondly, thread your loops through one another to interlock the loops and keep them from being able to untwist. Thirdly, re-measure your brace height regularly (every time you string it, ideally) to check for changes and rectify.
Jake, how much (based on your experience) of a difference in arrow spine needed for lowest and highest brace height?
Maybe a half of a pound. Not a spine change for sure.
I have a very nice recurve bow that my brother made for me. How do I figure out the brace height on a home made bow?
Same as anybow
Hi Jake, I've run all the way up through my brace height, however my arrows group best when running a lower and noisier height. What does this mean about my arrows and how can optimise what I have. Thanks
This is stringwalking at 20yd crawl if that makes a difference.
Once I get into the fine tuning section you will see how I make my groups best. I mentioned in this video I don’t adjust my brace to change my groups. I do it for feel or sound and then fine tune later.
I've never seen brace height recommendations for Sebastian Flute Iso Pro long limbs, anyone know if Sebastian Flute's have recommendations somewhere?
Did your group sizes change at all when adjusting your brace height?
Well, here at my club they use to tune theirs brace height based on the best grouping they can achieve on blank target faces... or so. Which makes sense to me, since it's kind of tuning the arrow's behaviour, like messing up with the plunger button or tip weight.
I'm trying to wrap my head around the lower brace heighth equals stiffer Arrow. I would think that the arrow will be on the string longer it's importing more energy into the arrow he would weaken the arrow shaft. In the video starting at 6:45 until 7:15, you said opposite things in that time span when talking about lower brace height and weaker or stiffer Arrow
My thinking was that if the arrow leaves the string closer to the riser, it will veer too the left more for a RH archer (this would be classified as a stiff arrow).
Is optimal brace height different for every draw length/weight, thus can it be set by someone other than the shooter?
Do you still participate in championship?
I think you are still young enough to continue.
Can anyone help me? Hoyt Nexus (25") + medium 40# Hoyt 990TX. 68" total. What might my brace height be?
Right around 8.5” would be good to start.
BUT if my riser 27 inches and short limbs to set my brace hight I have to go with over all bow size 68 inches right regards Hugo
Yes. Ideally you'll have a manual that came with your limbs, or you can look it up with your limb's manufacturer. Some of them, like the Win & Win manuals come with a table, telling you what brace height range to use for every combination of riser size and limb size.
But what if I have to restring every time is go to the range? How do I keep my brace height consistent?
I'll make a video about how to keep your brace height the same, keep an eye out!
what is an HP geometry riser?
What brace height you recommend on prodigy handle with long limbs
Not to be an ass, but did you not watch the video? Look in your limb manufacturer's information, their website or contact them directly. It's where you can find that information.
If you increase your poundage does that change plunger setting?
In general potentially more plunger pressure too. But not much.
Why metric? Because it's Easy!
Lol no because I’m in Australia we use metric and the topoint riser has the brace height in metric.
lol your funny but seriously we all know that imperial is better than
My bow poundage is 50,52
Does it matter where the string is twisted: clockwise or counter?
No
Hi Jake, Thanks. Just got my Inno CXT 25 using Long Limbs with 21.3 cm brace height at factory setting. Do i use the string twist method or the weight/tiller adjustment bolt method to get it between 22-24 cm?
Just twist your string up, simple!
@@JakeKaminskiArchery . Thanks.
Wait, "That's how you lose an eye"... What? I am new to this and know it is recommended to use a stringer but hadn't heard "lose an eye" before with regards to stringing your bow. Are you worried about the tip snapping off or...? Thanks for the information you share.
If your hand accidentally slips off the end of a flexed limb, the limb will quickly and violently rebound toward your head, and the limb tip in particular could gouge you.
Going through this series again, because it’s just so good, I have a question I can’t find that you have answered.
In the introduction when you showed the order of the tuning process this video is where the tiller should have been gone through.
So when and how would you fine tune the tiller? In the first rough setup we set the the tiller between 3-6 mm, but how do you know if it’s right? I have been taught to change the tiller until the bow sounds right - in the same manner you describe tuning the brace height. I saw the video about setting tiller to suit the pressure and feel on the fingers, is that the only reason you would change/tune the tiller or would you tune it based on sound and feel of the bow? Should it then be done before or after deciding brace height?
Thanks for a great channel and I hope you have time to answer this query! 🙏😇
hey if i change my brace height by twisting the string will it change my nocking point that is marked on my string ?thanks
Basically not at all.
I was worried about this
I can not get my sons brace height correct.
I put my string on his bow. Which are both the same riser and limbs and pound and my string sets his to the same as when it’s in my bow.
I use his string and does not matter how many turns either way it only gets to 26cm and it needs to be between 21 and 22.5cm
We use a string oh his other now and we can get the brace height correct.
What would be wrong with the string that came with his new bow.
It’s too short. Common on strings that come with bows.
Hi Jake. I want ask you for that you say for hpx.. Hoyt say 8 to 8.75 in. You mean lower than that 17 mm or is ok that who say in manual . Thanks
Does it suggest that specifically while using the HPX?
Jake Kaminski yes that is suggestion. 8 to 8.75 . In the Hoyt manual
Hi Jake i have 72" bow formula factor.... Please tell what should be actual brace height.......
I'm too much confuse.....
Please answer me.... I'm waiting
@@mrnomy6669 9 - 9.75 inch
I am currently shooting a W&W set up,
WIAWIS NANO MAX 25
WIAWIS NS Foam Medium
WIAWIS S21 Stabilizer, 3/28/12 W WIAWIS dampeners..
And it's loud as hell!
To make it a little quieter i set my BH to 9".... I feel like it's really too much for a 68" bow...
Can someone suggest me a starting point ? A low end value possibly..
(my limbs are aligned, tiller 0)
I’m guessing maybe a loose strand in the string or too few strands. If your less then 40 lbs run 18 strands, 20 strands otherwise. Don’t go over 8.5” BH and try again.
@@JakeKaminskiArchery Thank you so much.
So, today i'll start from 8.5 and go lower of 3/4 of an inch like you said in the video.
I'm actually shooting a 16 strand 8125 with 35# otf.. I tried a 20 strand, but nothing changed..
@@S4suk3S4mur41 By manual, the brace of your bow should oscillate between 21 and 23.5 cm (8.26 and 9.25 inches). So with 9" you stay in the correct range.
Thank you for covering this subject. It is the hardest to figure out as it is very subjective.
I have found that limb bolt settings will influence where those sweet spots occur. As you turn the bolts in, the limbs are preloaded more and the limb recurve will "unfold". You can observe that the string doesn't sit the same in the string groove.
In my experience, the more in the limb bolts are, the lower you brace height should be.
Have you experienced anything to that effect?
Great channel! But your Reflex-Deflex explanation is wrong. It's the other way around: Recurve bow risers are Deflex and majority of compound risers are Reflex. Thanks!
Maybe I miss-spoke. Of course recurves are deflex and compounds are reflex.
HI Jake, as a newbie to archery I am loving your videos .. quick question that may seen dumb to everyone, if you have made some twists to your string to achieve the "correct" brace height, surely when you de string your bow to put it away the string will simply untwist itself? .. or am I missing something?
I believe you don't need to remove the string altogether, just loosen it. Newbie here too.
Three things that I'm aware of. You should keep your string waxed while the string is still on the bow. Use a bowstring wax and wax only the bowstring itself, not the end or centre servings. I think Jake probably has a video on how to do that, so search his channel videos for a proper demonstration. A properly waxxed and burnished string will retain its circular cross-section better as well as its twists. Secondly, thread your loops through one another to interlock the loops and keep them from being able to untwist. Thirdly, re-measure your brace height regularly (every time you string it, ideally) to check for changes and rectify.
That's one way to do it, but if you need to pack it away to fit it in your bags for travelling to and from the range, you'll have to take it all apart :)
@@infinity345 Cheers
I've never bought the "low bracing height = unforgiving bow", mostly because the explanations for it have never been satisfying nor backed up with proof.
The most common explanation I've heard is that as the arrow decouples from the string earlier with a higher bracing height, it means that any release errors that cause the string to oscillate more will have less effect on the arrow. To which I reply that surely a lower bracing height and longer contact with the string gives more time for the oscillation to reduce.
Personally, I think people who reckon lower bracing heights are more forgiving are often those who don't understand that changing your bracing height changes your tune.
Typo! I meant "people who reckon lower bracing heights are less forgiving..." :)
where I can see that a higher brace height is "more forgiving" is with the longbow.
with a brace height of 6" or lower, the string slap onto the arm-guard is much more common.
I know it's not exactly the same thing, but you do get punished (physically) and may even begin to flinch in anticipation (especially if not using any arm protection)
as for torque, I don't think a higher brace height is going be significant enough to hide poor technique.
10:38 self awareness 101
Me trying to comprehend US customary system: OK, 12 inches = 1 foot. Hah, easy bro!
Jake: 700,000 of an inch less...
WASTED
RIP
I think you got the deflex and reflex wrong.
MERCA WE USE INCHS
Isn't it the other way around? Low brace height makes the arrow weaker.
Not in my experience.
If you lower the BH without tillering, you lower the bow weight a little bit. This means you reduce the primary acceleration onto the nock grave. Therefore the arrow reacts stiffer. And vice versa. I agree to Jake.
Why should the Bow weight change depending on BH? The only thing you change is how long you accelerate the arrow but you draw the Bow the same distance so no change in Bow weight or am I incorrect in this assumption?
David Fink it doesn’t change. You are correct. I’ll do a “myth” episode some day
I was also thinking a lower brace height makes arrow weaker since more speed coming from the arrow for staying on the string for longer.... Cause a lower brace height that speeds up an arrow but at the same time weakening it doesn't make sense... I guess I have to try it out myself...
Be carful, I'm from America, and most of America use metric, is only USA that refaced to do so.
You are talking way above my head.
Try this one: Brace Height | Archery Basics Explained
th-cam.com/video/WrvbJBZs3eM/w-d-xo.html
10 cubic centimeters (10 x 10 x 10 cm) = 1 kilo water = 1 liter try this in inches, pounds and gallons 🥴
Eh, it may be convenient but water is 8.3 lbs per gallon! I know that one for sure.
from a beginners point of view you explain alot but its way over my head
Well, that was...Bracing...
I see what you did there.
What Mr Talktomuch didn´t tell you in this video is:
"For any recurve bow, there is a specific bracing height where the bow imparts a maximum amount of energy to the arrow. Finding this state, even approximately by trial and error, can take many hours of shooting over several days.
During the PhD research, we needed to know the tension in the undrawn string, so set up a string incorporating a strain gauge package and a screw adjustment to change its length. With this, we found that the tension peaked at the ideal bracing height. This could be found in 20 minutes.
Trials showed that bows were indeed not only more efficient, quieter and had much less vibration after the shot. Simple equipment to do this is not in general use."
DESIGNING A BETTER ARCHERY BOW
Colin LEDSOME
Mate, you talk too much