If Hosea had taken over the gang it would have definitely been more centered around less noise, putting the women and children first, and cons to gain money instead of outright robbery. However, after Blackwater i dont think the gang would even hold together like that. I believe Hosea would understand the position the gang is in and try to have everyone move on. Thoughts? Who or what next?
I think Hosea and Arthur would attempt to do the real estate scam again or something similar. I think the gang would try to stay together because Hosea would favor scams over big heists.
Some of the more independent members of the gang might leave, but that would just help Hosea's group lie low, which was the real plan. Maybe the gang would split early on, some of the more chaotic members leaving with Micah. The women and non-violent men would become more involved in Hosea's schemes, and their presence would add credence to Hosea's cover story. They might make it all the way to west coast, maybe end up San Fran where there's ample opportunities to con rich folk.
I think we'd see people like bill and micah move on the second they're out of the mountains. Hosea might turn the gang into more of family of out casts rather than the money making machine dutch focused on, not to say they wouldn't make money but they wouldn't try to be unnecessarily violent or pick fights above them
That's the biggest thing that would change is Micha would absolutely out cut from the equation. Hosea would NEVER let Micah come with. Now obviously Micha would still follow just to spite them and get the payday he wanted, but hosea would never let him stay as long as dutch did
I think Bill would stay. He'd definitely be one of the most heartbroken about Dutch, alongside Javier, Molly Hosea and Arthur. But looking at some of his camp interactions he still liked alot of the people in the gang, maybe even like family.
With Dutch being dead, the Pinkertons will let off the pressure and probably focus on Colm after he robs the train. The gang will lay low and probably grab the blackwater money and move West
Hosea is an archetype within the world of fiction commonly referred to as "The Voice Of Reason" The voice of reason is mostly a narrative driver, and is usually the quote unquote "True Leader" of the story. This person helps influence the false leader, commonly refereed to as "The Politician" the politician is the person who lacks common sense, but has great charisma and natural speaking skills. So what happens when The Voice Of Reason dies or the politician stops listening? the whole group falls apart. Think Piggy and jacks dynamic from Lord Of The Flies. or Brian and peter from family guy.
these are archetypes usually used in the world of cinematic fiction that rip directly off of real world archetypes. most, if not all writers utilize these types of " characters" for dynamic story telling to portray a sense of conflict, personality, and over arching relatability but to answer your question more directly- archetypes weren't created by a singular individual, they were more or less developed by multiple writers over history with similar sentiments. ( in this games case, i personally think the stark contrast between characters actually 𝐡𝐞𝐥𝐩𝐬 with the games revolving issue around ludo narrative dissonance rather then damages it.) @@DProductions-ty4ym
@@DProductions-ty4ym Don't forget the Machiavellian personality type who manipulates the man/woman in power to do his bidding. The Machiavellian rises to power through deceit, always masking their true intentions. They are masters of manipulation, often preying on leaders who may well be charismatic, intelligent but very high in conscientiousness. Or think for example a king with average IQ who inherited all his power. This could grant the Machiavellian absolute power while safely ruling from the shadows. They are not to be compared to a narc or psychopath as they lack the need for the grandiosity. They do not care for recognition, only absolute power. Which makes them much more eerie and so hard to expose.
think flash from the justice league counts since in the episode a better world the JL killed Lex and made a crime free world by lobotomizing every villain after the flash was killed
Dutch dying in Blackwater is something I never thought of, there's one person I think you should've mentioned, though, Javier. Javier was far and away the most loyal to dutch and he was also in Blackwater. Do you think he would've died alongside him? And if not, would he be just as loyal to Hosea?
I think he would have been Loyal to Hosea but maybe a bit more willing to challenge him if he disagrees with something. The loss of Dutch probably would harden him, but it's as he said, Javier loves the camp, they are his family now.
Javier still respected Hosea as co leader and part of the family. Him taking over after Dutch dying would be an adjustment he could accept as all are already seeing Hosea as second in command. He also didnt betray the Gang or Dutch for that matter to get the position. I'd even see Javier follow Hoseas much more safe leadership and plans. As Javier is clearly a man that just needs someone to stir him. And he's loyal till the end. All his negativity in later chaoters comes from slow decay of faith in dutch and for him directly to the gang. Yet he never points his gun on his family. So to him its all he has, but young Javier had the heart at the right spot.
I think Micah would be kicked out or killed after the first mission. Hosea would take Dutch’s role as leader and would probably be irate after Micah burnt down Sadies home and their one chance at a good sanctuary. He’d either have Arthur kill him there or he’d kick him out into the blizzard were he’d die from frostbite or make it back to New Hanover were he’d probably get captured by local law for starting something stupid. Hosea probably wouldn’t go after the O’Driscolls so they would rob Cornwalls train and take the heat off of the gang as the rescued John and started moving west as Colm went east into New Hanover. The gang would probably still rescue Sean as well since they’d be moving through the territory west of strawberry and likely cross near where he’d be getting transported, so it’d be an easy save. The gang would gradually transit from being highway robbers to being a more organized type of crime syndicate. Instead of robbing banks and people they’d run financial scams and protection rackets. In dry states, which were a thing before prohibition out west, they may even become early bootleggers. Overall they’d probably make a good amount of cash and I don’t think anyone would leave. The gang would probably stay together without Micah or Dutch creating rifts with its members and Hosea would probably have Arthur shut down any bank robbing or noise creating activities that would keep the gang quiet but happy. The only people I could see leaving would be Molly and Karen. Molly for obvious reasons with Dutch but Karen because she’d naturally fall out as a drunk (something Hosea wouldn’t tolerate). Bill and Javier would probably stay around with Hosea giving them constant work and Arthur taking more of a leadership role as the lead enforcer, probably at hosea’s request. Charles and John would stay out of not having problems with Dutch’s leadership, and may not even drift off as the gang wouldn’t have nearly as much heat and would be “more legitimate” as an organized crime syndicate. Sean and Lenny would probably thrive with Sean taking after Arthur and Lenny taking after Hosea as the “new guard”. Uncle would be uncle and the rest of the camp would probably stick around with no big reason to leave. Strauss specifically would take a much larger role and would be key to Hosea’s more organized style of crime. Overall the gang would be in good shape and would probably settle in a western state like California or Oregon where they’d fit right in without any large local bounties over their heads.
I like this theory. You've got me convinced that Dutch should've died in Blackwater, as well as Micah. A lot of the gang's problems came from those two.
Hosea was terminally ill if I remember correctly. It would look more like he would try to give life for everyone, a life far from fear if you even wake up the next day, basically he would act more like chapter 6 Arthur trying to ensure that everybody is well and safe. I don't think he would just give the choice of leaving but actively encourage for another way of life simillar how he did with John in the game
Since Micah was recruited by Dutch, if he got arrested in strawberry like in the main story, Hosea probably would leave Micah since Micah is unhinged but that’s if Micah stays with the gang
With Hosea's planning and intelligence and Arthur and John as the muscle I think the gang would have lasted much longer. I bet at least Micah would have left maybe some others too.
Hosea is pretty flawed too. The bank job in Saint Denis was Hosea's idea. Hosea also was for conning the Gray's and Braithwaits. Things would have still ended poorly for the gang regardless.
another aggressive side that can be seen in Hosea is random events in camp like the drunk Bill incident, he can be seen more or less telling Micah to f off, he can also be seen screaming at shaun for sleeping on guard duty, and there's another one for javier I think but I can't remember how it goes
he was still calm during the drunk bill, he was just doing the only thing that made bill realise he needed to fuck off and sean was literally compromising the entire gangs safety by sleeping
The biggest thing that would change is Micha would absolutely out cut from the equation. Hosea would NEVER let Micah come with. Now obviously Micha would still follow just to spite them and get the payday he wanted, but hosea would never let him stay as long as dutch did
@@cantinadudes You're probably right, but Micah wouldn't be in prison since it was Dutch who sent both Lenny and Micah to scout. So he wouldn't be hanged later on in Strawberry.
Micha would’ve just been cut out period. The guy knows no one likes him and Hosea now as the gang leader wouldn’t tolerate his shit. After they get off the MTs the gang would head west and micha would stay so he can get the money once the heat dies down
I think a cool what if scenario would be if the gang decided to return to their Robin Hood inspired roots and started directing their criminal activities towards solely the corrupt or even just straight up turned to vigilantism, go the Batman route? I don't know, just something that's been floating around in my head this past week or so.
Onestly it's pretty clear to me that the "Robin Hood" style they were talking about wasn't even real, it was just them believing in Dutch's vision. How were they even a Robin Hood gang anyway? By robbing banks, killing lawmen, stealing cattle and ruining people's lives just to be "nice" with the least fortunate? That's a delusion right there.
Many are saying Micah would be totally out of the equation, but I disagree. It's pretty strongly implied throughout the game that the only thing Micah cares about throughout the time we know him is the Blackwater money, which is as good as gone with Dutch either not being alive to secure it or not living long enough to reveal the location of the stash. Micah's efforts will be for naught, and he would almost certainly be cast out by Hosea and Arthur, so he's going to want his pound of flesh. If Micah survived he would most likely begin operating as a direct enemy to the gang, either by ratting to the Pinkertons much earlier or by selling the gang out to the nearby O'Driscolls.
as i said under your post i think it would be more likely for arthur to become leader because hes already the tough guy of the gang who under his wanted poster even says "do not approach"
I disagree. Arthur is somewhat the face of the gang, but he lacks the ambition for leadership. If Dutch died, I doubt Arthur would feel “worthy” to take his place. End of the day, he’s a follower, he gets things done, but he doesn’t call the shots himself.
@@jaegercat6702 He's Dutch's brawler, he is given a job to do and does it well, but as far as I remember every single time Dutch isnt sure what to do Arthur is just as clueless. Only once he gets TB and realizes Dutch has lost it does he start doing things himself.
As "cool" as that may be to see Arthur as the King on the throne, hes more so the knight that rides out. Slaying Dragons. Besides Dutch only Hosea has the qualities, skillset and respect of tve Gang to fill that seat. Arthur and John would fill in beside him thou. Holding council and leading the Gang forward together. Lets also nlt forget that Hosea is much more down to earth. Seeing the Gang eye to eye and spending alot of personal time with them. Unlike Dutch who occasionally descents from his big tent to throw a speech. So i wouldnt even be suprised if he'd involve everyone in the dessisions. Acknowledging talebts like Lenny just as he did Johns actual literacy and intellect. As Hosea is the kinda guy that motivates the beat out of people like the social and wise man he is.
I think putting aside an obvious case like Micah, most of the gang will stay under Hosea’s leadership provided they are alive and well. I don’t have much insights into the women and children of the camp, but for the gunslingers. Arthur: - Looks up to Hosea and probably considers him a father-figure John: - I’m not entirely sure about John’s relationship with Hosea, but he and Hosea were the first to sense that Dutch had gone nuts. John is very keen and logical, he knows he’s in good hands under Hosea. Javier: - Javier has unwavering loyalty towards Dutch, the man who saved him when he was lost and hungry in foreign land, he has stated that the gang is his family and it is his home, it is highly unlikely he would leave because they are moving on from the life of outlaw and gunfighting Bill: - Same thing as Javier, loyalty towards Dutch, found solace in the camp. Neither of them are particulary chaos creator like Micah, they’re not looking to shootup towns for fun, they’ll stick with the gang because it’s all they’ve ever known after hitting rock bottom. Lenny: - Shares alot of Hosea’s ideology, he has great desire for companionship and he says that if he dies, he wants to be buried ith his friends. Sean: - Can’t be too sure about Sean but he seems to be really close with Arthur and he’s very carefree so I can’t imagine that he’d be against Hosea becoming the leader who takes on a more passive path Charles: - I don’t think I need to say much about Charles, he sticks through thick and thin and arguably one of the smartest, logical and virtuous outlaw equal to Hosea. (Cases where members will stay but leave eventually) Sadie: - Sadie is hard to break apart but I’m highly leaning towards that she would leave the gang if they do not match her motive for revenge; that revenge against O Driscoll isn’t just out of hatred, it was the last thing she could strive for before she’d let herself free. Sadie would fight tooth and nails to get out of camp and hunt Colm herself if she has to, even if the gang supports her, I doubt Sadie would stick around for long; the gang is a friend and home to her but to me, it felt like it was never permanent. She has to move on by herself and find her life somewhere far away. Micah: - He would stay and try to convince some to his side, someone like Arthur until he either gets the boot or leaves by himself out of frustration. Strauss: - Arthur’s gonna send his ass and I think Hosea would send him even earlier, even someone like Dutch hated Strauss’s line of work, without Dutch vouching for him (because he makes money), he’s gonna get the boot.
I don’t I don’t 100% agree with you but one thing I say your wrong about is Sadie if Dutch died they would never find her cause I don’t think they would have went up in the mountains
I like to believe that if Dutch were to indeed die and Hosea were to become the new "temporary" leader, he'd try to make Arthur or John more ready for the position. He'd probably kick out Micah as most of the worst plans came from him but other members were free to come and stay or to leave. He didn't care much for John leaving for one year and would've probably talked to Dutch about letting the girls and Jack leave so we could probably infer he doesn't care if gang members wanted to leave. He probably would've stayed a lot more on the "scam" side of his hustle, ie. talking to rich folks and then robbing them blind and getting out before being caught and probably in a whole other state. He has shown to be more cautious than Dutch and enjoys the more silent heists instead of doing loud and dumb things like robbing a train with the Pinkertons and O'Driscolls nearby. He would probably tell the gang about his illness and how they shouldn't expect him to be Dutch 2.0. He would've had more time to work more people in Valentine, I remember he was talking about doing something there before the whole shootout ruined it all. Lastly, I'm unsure if he would actually change the gang name to "The Matthews Gang" as "The Van Der Linde Gang" had become much more reputable over the years and was presumably used the last 20+ years Hosea and Dutch were together. He doesn't seem to be the kind of person to really want his name in the spotlight and would probably keep the name the same due to the aforementioned reputation and as tribute to his late friend.
Arthur, since the three are known for deciding the gang’s course of action. Dutch exclusively consulted Arthur and Hosea in their earlier days because those two founded the gang, picked up young Arthur and that was the OG three (Leader, Co-Leader, Enforcer) and John was picked up after Arthur.
@@Neutral_1zedArthur and John taking over after Dutch and hoseas death would be quite amazing idea, cause Arthur and John were raised by Dutch and Hosea and they are not quite different
Arthur would probably assume command with John as his right hand man. Micah would probably make an issue of it but Arthur and John would likely either kick him out or just outright kill him.
I agree greatly truly Hosea was a legend to hold and having take the reigns after such a grand scenario of Dutch dying in blackwater and lending all those in the gang a ear and a hand to give them the true lives they deserve or can get the chance to live would be really a fantastic thing and I could only imagine a day for all them living the lives they wish and coming once in a while to speak to one another in a special place to enjoy each others company as not just a gang but one true family
I think Hosea likes using the more conman approach because it’s less noisy, but he will definitely throw down when it’s called for too. He’s definitely a don’t mistake his calmness for weakness or you will pay dearly.
hosea would take over for just long enough to get everyone to safety then he will disband the gang and tell them to live a normal life kinda like Arthur in chapter 6, hosea already lost hope in the life of outlaws so he wouldn't want to go for more robberies and fight against the law and Dutch death will push that idea
@@torpid5092 that will depend on how active they are, I think the reason you hunt down Bill, Javier and Dutch is because they are still active criminals that terrorise people, if Arthur and hosea settle down and stop committing crimes maybe they will be forgotten or at least the government will force Arthur to do their bidding instead of john
@@stephenambrose8223 I think that is debatable, if he would hunt down Bill and Javier who he seemed to get along with decently then the guy he disliked for a long time wouldnt be too far off
Hosea always struck me of the definition of “don’t take my kindness for weakness”. He’s still one of the better gunslingers in the gang and by far the smartest. He just doesn’t tend to display the raw cultish charisma of Dutch and definitely showed more love to the group. It isn’t stated outright but I always assumed that Hosea taught John and Arthur how to read and write for example. Not because it’s useful for the gang (though it was) but because it would give them the best shots at life.
I had a similar AU idea some time ago. Instead of Davey getting shot on the road out of Blackwater and dying in Colter, Dutch does instead. "If I could throw myself in the ground in their place-"
@@thegamingvillager2392 That's... That's how Davey responds in GTA V... Michael says Davey, How You Doing? Davey says About As Good As Can Be Expected.
I'd say because Hosea also lived in the mountains or grew up in, it's very likely that he'd think the best way to lose them is in the mountains. They would've probably tried to block any roads to get away and force them to go north anyway. Micah would stay calm and be like as if he felt very bad for what happened and Javier if he was still there would demand revenge the most. By scouting the area, they would still find Sadie, but as already said, they'd just avoid any drama with the O'Driscoll's. Hosea already knew of Horseshoe Overlook and Valentine so they'd probably go there anyways, considering that the Pinkertons and bounty hunters would be all over the place and make it difficult for them to immediately move West as they would find out by sending scouts if they even tried to go West. Arthur would hold the gang together and they would look mostly to what he does and just follow him and Hosea would have to take his time to grief and think of what to do next and whatever happened to Sean and the guy they had. Hosea would rely on Arthur's opinion and they would both end up leading the gang with Hosea being the brain and Arthur being the force that holds everyone together as they would see him as reflection of Dutch because everyone knows he was his most trusted man next to Hosea. Hosea has his own personality and they'd see him more like a sweet Granddad. John would still get saved if he was lost and when Micah and Lenny go out scouting and Micah gets arrested, then he'd stay there and receive his punishment. Not just because they don't like him and blame him for a lot but also because they'd understand that showing up in West Elizabeth for him to free him from jail would be stupid and draw too much attention. The gang would stay together and Javier might think of going back to recover Dutch's body, but he might get calmed down and instead they'd find out about Sean and try to rescue him. Javier would be a bit more emotional and put a lot of pressure on saving John and Sean as he wouldn't want them to go out too and know that Dutch wouldn't want that neither. Arthur would probably have to talk with him sometimes to calm him down and make him focus and Javier would listen to him. They would give themselves some time and would probably move on a little more north near Ambarino to not let too many folks finding out that some people built a little settlement near Valentine. Hosea would still get in contact with Seamus because they need every way of making money. Before they leave, Hosea and Arthur would consider getting rid of Micah before he gets hanged, because they would think that if no one's coming, then he might tell them where they are to gain his freedom that way. Then they would look if the coast is clear to move on and if they see a way to slip through and go West to maybe Reno since they already were in Reno before, they might just move everyone out and have a few of the boys and maybe Karen too go rob the bank in Valentine to leave with a good amount of money to make a new start in Nevada. The Pinkertons wouldn't go so hard against them anyway, because with Agent Milton leading this operation, they would already be pleased enough with Dutch's death and would only hunt them down for the potential danger they still pose. The hunt for the O'Driscoll's would distract them a lot tho and that's what would clear the way for the gang to slip through because the O'Driscoll's would fight back very hard and with Cornwall being so pushy, they would have to spend most of their focus and men to join with the deputies and fight the O'Driscoll's and get Colm.
@@Darthdoodoo if Dutch was dead Milton would’ve had no reason to worry about the rest of the gang especially if they didn’t bring attention to themselves
@@Darthdoodoo ehhh, milton was willing to offer pardons to even arthur morgan to hand over dutch. getting the dutch gang initially seemed to be more about appeasing cornwall i guess. milton saw them as small fry compared to the other gangs until the saint denis bullshit they pulled.
The gang falls apart faster. The gang is connected by Dutch’s charm. Every single person is only there because of something Dutch did for them. It would splinter into factions and dissolve quicker than it did in the story without that single unifying star
Onestly I think the gang was pretty much done after Blackwater. Dutch was the only thing keeping it together and it wouldn't matter what they did with Hosea. Sure, most of them would probably stick around, but even by keeping a low profile there was nothing they could do. Dutch's plan of going to Tahiti was delusional, but even more delusional was Hosea's plan to go back west: even if they somehow managed to do that, they couldn't escape the law forever. Where would they go? California? Seattle? Down south to Mexico? British Canada? The US was bringing down every last remaning gang and police forces were becoming better and better in tracking them and hunting them down and all of this was 8 years before the FBI was formed. Even if they somehow managed to reach Tahiti or some other "tropical paradise" it would have been the same old story for them: the game clearly shows you that supposedly "untamed" places like Guarma are struggling against the US and other imperialist Powers and it's obviously a war they can't win. Hosea would have (at best) delayed the gang demise of a couple of years IF they all layed low and didn't commit any major crime, which is almost impossible if we consider people like Micah, Sean or Bill always trying to prove themselves or some shit like that.
I feel like another positive thing that could’ve possibly come out of this scenario is that it definitely would’ve reduced the heat on the gang as a whole. In many instances during the game, the leader of a gang was killed or captured and after the elimination of the leader the remaining members of the gang were mostly forgotten about by the Law. After the death of Colm, it seems like the Law mostly stopped caring about the remaining members of the O’driscoll gang. In the case of some of the bounties the player went after, there would be bounty posters showing an enforcer for the gang in particular and then the leader soon after, then once the leader was captured bounty posters for the specific gang stopped being posted. If Dutch was eliminated, the rest of the gang probably wouldn’t have as much heat on them because it seems like the law in this version of America essentially just decides that “it isn’t worth the resources” once taking out the main leaders of a gang (they may start caring sometime later down line, but the gang will have time to make plans for that).
Hey dude thank you so much for pointing out Hosea's attitude towards Catherine Braithewaite. I never looked at it that way despite my 4000 plus hours of RDR2. You're right. Hosea can be a hard man when he wants. Thanks dude.
If this had happened, would Arthur have been able to realise how to be a good man and have an arc similar to when he got TB? I feel Hosea would have helped him if the gang disbanded
id say yes, he'd find it through being with mary linton and learning to forgive john. however, it wouldnt have been as penetrating to his character, only the TB could help him truly break the mental shackles of not being allowed to oppose dutch for decades, rendering him a semi-slave.
Everybody that knew how to take advantage of Dutch's weakness for grandeur and illusion did - Hosea was absolutely smart enough to do so and likely was a driving force in keeping what Dutch became at bay for many many years. That means he was likely the real leader of the gang, because ultimately he was Dutch's advisor and mentor. Having said that by 1899 there wasn't much untamed west left and the gang found themselves in ever increasingly industrial land, the days of an outlaw gang were numbered, regardless of who ran the show. We see a peak into what an alternative narrative could have looked like with in the Epilogue, when a gang is primarily using economic force to increase their wealth and numbers, strong arming smaller ranchers to hand over their lands or run them out. If the gang had stayed together with Hosea at the helm that's the direction he would have taken them.
"That means he was likely the real leader of the gang" no, he was just the only thing keeping dutch in check. dutch ultimately had the final call on anything but hosea's input was listened to.
Thank you so much for making these videos, I work a delivery job & I can now reliably have a source that talks about Red Dead 2 beyond “Check out this glitch! This is where this item is!!” Youre asking the best questions & providing the best speculation & I love listening to these while I work, I LOVE that you put in the reference clips. Keep up the great work. You’re making me keep this game installed currently on ps5, inspiring me to play this late night instead of something else
It stands to reason that arthur wouldn't have gotten TB because events would be just different enough **at least** without dutch constantly bearing down about money, arthur may not have ever really taken on strauss's jobs. I think hosea would potentially give blackwater some time, and then try to retrieve that money.
When I think about the characters of Hosea and Dutch, I’d say they are both smart, intelligent leaders in different areas and ways. When it comes to making a move on a lead Dutch seems the sort to go in half cocked I suppose, like with the supposed post office heist of Saint Denis, Dutch immediately took the opportunity to rob the place without any investigation and just takes Bronte’s word for it. Hosea seems the type to play the game intelligently, he waits for a good lead, a good opportunity and plays it carefully instead of carelessly pouncing on every situation like a predator unaware that it’s pouncing on a trap. Dutch is a great leader who can influence people like no other, he is very well spoken and picks his words carefully, Dutch always comes across as kind but strong and would happily blow an innocents woman’s brains out on a ferry. For Hosea he lacks the strong leader part as he’s very old and even decrepit due to his illness, he will speak wisdom to those who want to hear it and can influence those with a conscience, he would certainly struggle to influence 🐀, Bill and Javier, as their mindless loyalty to Dutch would probably shake them enough that they might just disappear. If Dutch died and Hosea assumed leadership I reckon the whole time that the events that RDR2 span across would be spent laying low and taking some small easy picking here and there.
Red Dead Redemption would be about Jack Marston leaving the town or ranch the gang formed somewhere out West called Dutchosea after having a great time growing up but having to find his own life and purpose out there, having to lead the new generation of members and defend them from remaining gangs and former members who went rogue (maybe Bill Williamson) finally learning to be a real man out there
from playing this Red Dead Redemption 2 game and taking my time with the game, I think that if Hosea was in charge he wouldn't rob the train, he would have creative plan on getting the money from Blackwater without violence but con with stealth approach, would have focus on instructing Strauss to target corrupt businessman with debt instead of people who are poor, could have cared for the women including children, and many others. Also what I like about Hosea is how he cared for the members of the gang, pointed out the flaws of Dutch including Micah when they would cause destruction with criminal obsession, helping Arthur on advice for life, and many others. I think that Hosea would have come up with a better plan to recover the Blackwater money like using creative approach like master of disguise, stealth approach, and many others. Also if Hosea was in charge I think he would have left Micah to rot in jail for being selfish to the gang, causing pain with his criminal obsession, and many others.
Hosea is the kind of person to just give himself to the Pinkertons so the gang could be spared. He's at an age where he isn't afraid to die, he just wants to know that the people he cares about are safe. Hosea dying has got to be the most painful moment in the whole story. It's possible Dutch could have kept his mind had Hosea been around to give guidance.
This is interesting. I personally don't think anyone but Hosea could become the leader if Dutch died. He's as much of a father figure to Arthur as Dutch was so he'd have Arthur's complete loyalty. That alone would stop anyone, except maybe Bill but who knows with Bill, from challenging Hosea to become the leader. I really don't think anyone would though. Long term I think Hosea would probably achieve the goal of leading the gang out west and buying some land. I think that would end the gang though. I can't see Bill, Javier, or Kenny settling down to a quiet life. Miss Grimshaw, Pearson, Abigail, and Grandpa would most likely stay. Charles and the rest are all maybes but I think most would depend on the situation. Depending on how things went with John I could even see Arthur leaving after Hosea died. I think that's the real reason Dutch didn't buy the land before Blackwater, he knew it would be the end of the gang.
I wonder if Hosea might be willing to wait till Colm hits the train, and THEN bushwhacking Colm, let Colm take the heat from Cornwall AND take his score from him!
This was great you should do a video on what if reverend swanson and uncle actually did something and how different the story would be if they were actually useful in some type of way(what there roles on helping the gang would be)
Hosea had already left the life once before and I think he sees opportunities the rest of the gang are too short sighted to see any longer. I think he would stick to the plan of laying low, move west and disband once everyone was safe in their new life.
Yesterday, i watched Bill and Hosea have a heart to heart. Hosea told Bill that he is a good guy that was just in the wrong place at the wrong time. Bill was touched, walked away, then Hosea started laughing at Bills lack of picking up on his sarcasm.
I bet that members who were really attached to dutch, like susan, Bill, and micah, would all move on. after that, hosea would have actually fulfilled the plan, which was to lie low, then head out west, or go to the tropics. Edit: fixed my terrible spelling
Hosea wouldn’t have been able to keep people like Bill in line. He was the wise man of the bunch but he didn’t have Dutch’s charisma or ability to control a room. He would have eventually lost control of Bill, Javier, and probably Sean.
Sean is already pretty respectful to Hosea, whenever he got scolded for sleeping he turns into a scaredy cat just saying "sorry, i ah". That's Sean, the guy who trashtalk everyone including Arthur
I think the gang would have been better off without Dutch. The gang would not have to deal with Dutch's ego that got the gang into a lot of bad situations.
I like to imagine the gang would still eventually split apart but in a more positive note like you said where Hosea doesnt mind if they leave since the world doesnt want them anymore Eventually i think the only remaining member would be Hosea, Charles, Sadie, Arthur, the Marstons, Grimmshaw, and Uncle and now theyll act more like a family than a gang Everyone else wouldve left to either live a normal life or continue their pursuit of the criminal life and die (Micah, Bill)
thinking on it now, Bill might still go and make his own gang if he's too stubborn or heck even be the one to put Micah down cause most would likely blame him for Dutch's death like you say, Javier might try & help the rest or start living off somewhere tolerable and be a drifter and wouldn't have gone crazy as he did in rdr1 while Arthur & Hosea try and support John & his family as best they can and Uncle might even step up once Arthur's symptoms start getting worse and Sadie & Charles would've stayed a bit longer,,,,
You know what this would have been interesting if we had a game showing this alternate route where dutch is killed and hosea is the leader and micah becomes priority one to put an end to if he does not cooperate and knowing how hosea saw some of them we would see either see bill siding with micah and pull something similar as the o driscols and those who choose to go with hosea, arthur for sure as his right hand, and lenny as the brains of this new gang, sadie might be somewhere in this as well as charles there is an alternate story that might sound interesting just to see where it all goes.
Great analysis. People often underestimate characters like Hosea in real life because of the general black or white thinking we humans possess. It preserves energy but makes us easy prey for evildoers who spend all their energy analyzing all your characteristics until they know you inside out and utterly destroy you.
Arthur + Hosea would take the lead they complete each other so good some would leave the gang but the rest will be loyal guys like kenny john charles swanson maybe strauss and a lot of them girls ofc and they are the oldest members of the gang i think
If hosea became leader it would solely come down to how well him and arthur can figure out micah being a manipulator, I doubt he would succeed in manipulating hosea so I recon he would stage his death, however if Arthur and Hosea are aware and have awareness to his manipulation (which doesn’t really show in the story until the end when its already too late) then im sure they would banish him from the gang and hosea with arthur by his side would focus on following the actual plan and most likely succeed in leaving America or fail when robbing a place and not having the expertise of dutch and ultimately ending with the gangs demise
I feel like with Dutch dead and up in the mountains. I feel like Hosea would push Arthur to start actually thinking for himself and start pushing Arther to start thinking like Hosea did in Clemens Point Because when you read Arthur’s journal, he’ll actually say in it how he considers Hosea his actual father figure and with Dutch out of the way (a master class manipulator and the only reason Arthur starts picking up on his manipulations is because of his limited time) Arther would start to act more and more like the person he wants to be and not who he thinks he is. So long story short, Hosea would fill Dutch’s position as the leader, Arther would fill in Hosea’s spot after some personal growth, and John might take Arther’s position as the enforcer.
I cant remember which mission, but it’s somewhere in Chpt 2 where Hosea gives Arthur something or talks about getting something but how the owner was dead. Basically insinuating that he killed the owner to get whatever he got. I think some people see Hosea’s caution as cowardice and his age as being feeble, but neither is true. Especially because in his younger years, Hosea wasnt afraid to get his hands dirty. Since The Van Der Linde gang used to be just Arthur, Hosea, and Dutch with members like John, Javier, and Bill coming afterwards.
In the hidden dialogue it's shown that even though Sean can annoy Hosea with his laziness, he still sees Hosea as a father figure and probably wouldn't have left the gang.
I’ve actually put a lot of thought into what I would do in Dutch’s position, 1 hit the O’Driscoll camp in the mountains (to steal the dynamite.) 2 I would leave the mountains and forget about the train job(they just kicked a hornet’s nest in blackwater more heat is a bad idea all the robberies in chapter two would still happen. There was no Cornwall robbery so the valentine shootout doesn’t happen. I would still move on to Scarlett Meadows for new score opportunities. But no Cornwall stage job. The bank in Valentine and that one stagecoach job would still happen and shady belle would be cleared. And I would have played one side of that feud to pick off the other side than deal with the remaining one. Chapter 4 I would hit the riverboat casino and the bank. And then I’d move to Mexico. (Maybe that job stealing dynamite in van horn would still happen to blow the bridge to get the law distracted
I love how arthur can get on his horse and travel from far north to the extreme south then east and west across the entire country but it takes sooo much effort and money to get the gang out of there. Why they couldn't just start going wherever they want while doing whatever to get money as they go is stupid. Needing one last score is the reason they were destroyed.
All i know is that if hosea didnt die he would be the first one to lure micah far away from the camp and together with arthur kill him. Hosea would also take john and arthurs side in the end. He would be the first to try and stop dutch and the first to shoot him if all else fails
This is interesting because I don't know if most of the people on the Blackwater job would have stuck together. Micah was there to take advantage of Dutch, Javier was loyal to him, Sean seemed to have a great deal of respect for him too. John was also pretty shaky often doubtful. Hosea didn't have the command that Dutch did and was more a senior advisor at times.
While Hosea may have taken over I think he would have started the transition to Arthur becoming the leader quickly. Hosea knows his time is short and Arthur would have been the best choice. The gang might lose Micha, Bill, and Javier but with them gone even less noise would be made making an escape much more possible. Arthur, John, Charles, perhaps Sadie (depending on if they still found her) would still make a solid core eventually ending in a larger Beachers hope style ranch. Perhaps settling in hanging dog ranch?
To add on to that I feel Hosea would’ve sent someone like Sadie or anyone in the gang who’s face isn’t plastered on wanted posters to go and grab the money from blackwater before heading out went then to whoever wants to leave he would give them a cut to help them start a new life and I feel like Hosea would probably just let Micah be hanged in strawberry due to the fact he would get the law’s attention on the gang
Hosea’s role in chapter 3 makes me have serious doubts about if he is the best candidate for leadership. He happily went along with dutch’s strategy of playing both sides in that feud between grays and braithwaites, so like dutch he sometimes tries to eat more than he can chew and considers himself smarter than everyone else (arthur did warn about that strategy, not hosea). I also have my doubts if he could impose his authority to some of the gang members like Bill or Javier, as he is clearly not in his prime (not saying he is weak though)…the gang at that time is being chased by pinkertons and needs at that moment someone who knows how to survive off grid, like arthur or charles, till they get west and away from pinkertons and civilization…they got no experience as leaders and no extravagant charisma, but i think they know just how to make people respect and appreciate them, they would make better decisions to survive than hosea, they are calm and stable, and they got no desire for power which ironically can make them great leaders, and arthur in particular the deadliest member of the gang, so he can impose his will if he has to…my personal preference would be arthur leader, with hosea and charles as advisors
I think if this was the scenario Hosea would want Arthur to leave with Mary, or Mary would join the gang again with them living passive lives and would probably use the remaining money to buy a huge ranch after Arthur meeting with her the first time I like the Way you said Hosea would try to send the gang to live their lives, he takes on the tole Arthur does in Beaver Hollow
The Pinkertons would be after the O'Driscolls because of the train heist and, with Dutch dead, Blackwater probably woudn't be on lockdown. If we asume Hosea to not have any issues taking the money that killed Dutch, the gang would have returned for the Blackwater money then vanished like Dutch wanted. Or more likely tracked down like John was in the original because one of the themes of both games is the Wild West dying.
Telling you, I would never have seen him as the boss. Kind of like a consigliere in the mob. One certainly not to be crossed, but operates primarily as an advisor. The leader in this sense would be Arthur, whose decisions would be run by Hosea to examine the different angles/scenarios. The nature of their gang was a tight knit group, requiring a very engaged boss who could act quickly without hesitation. That's Arthur in spades. One of the biggest tragedies of the gang was they were led by a delusional egomaniac. Arthur was the best leader who never was.
I also think that Sadie would’ve never joined the gang, because the search for John was held by Dutch, Micah, and Dutch before they found the Addler residence and Micah burnt it down. If it were just Arthur, as of your prospect that Micah would be kicked or killed, then he would just go with Javier to find him and would focus on that alone.
The best What If i could think of is what if Dutch admired Arthur/Charles plan where they were helping out the Natives as they were trying to be legitimate with the Reservation. I think having the Gang living with the Natives would've been a great diversion towards the Pinkertons because if Rains Fall convinced the Army to live freely than the Pinkertons cant hunt down the gang because free Natives would be at its crossfire - causing the Pinkertons to crumble
I remember seeing Hosea draw his gun on bill and told him to go sober up, at that time Hosea was cemented him as a leader even more so than Dutch because he is old and knows he's got a few decent years left...he's lived, loved and experienced a whole lot. Arthur, John, Javier, Charles, Lenny would definitely stay for a while until the women and children are safe and I'll go into more detail bout most the characters and what they'd do. Who knows Micah would probably leave to form his own gang (and ngl he'd probably get a big score and disapper or die trying). Bill would most likely stay for a while but then go off on his own and live a life as a gunmen for hire or get picked off by the pinkertons. Sadie would probably go off into the bounty hunting business and make a name for herself. The girls would flourish in the city and I believe the 3 would go look for love and a career. John and his family, Uncle included could very well go to a nicer place and settle on a farm but not blackwater. Hosea and Arthur would probably stay together for a while until Hosea may convince him to find Marry and live out his life with her. whilst Hosea could teach Lenny a whole lot more and after hosea passes he stays like close little brother to Arthur. Charles could very well go with John or something along the lines of livinga normal life. The rest would just become citizens like Pierce and Tranlawney, Strauss. Sean would probably die to hanging as the crew wouldn't find him but if they did he'd go off with Karen somewhere. but this is all subjected to my opinion but this is if they all manged to get away...a truly unheard of ending in western times.
I think a few male gang members would just get out if Dutch died, since his image as a brave king of thieves appealed more to them than Hosea's pragmatic and skeptic world view. The gang exiters would be most certainly Javier and Micah, since both were more connected to Dutch than to anyone else, while Bill could also exit if he were to adopt his more criminal ish persona we see in RDR1. The rest of them, basically John, Arthur, Lenny, Charles, Sadie and Sean (if these last 2 were saved in the Grizzlies and in West Elizabeth, respectively) would surely stick to Hosea's gang. The other ladies, Jack and the men that did not engage in robberies would most certainly follow too, at least for the time being, since they were on the gang for more of a familiar group instead of a criminal one (even though the ladies and Strauss engaged in crimes of their own sometimes).
If Hosea was in charge we wouldn't have a video game. Or... we would have what John has in the epilogue. Which is grinding ranch chores for 8 bucks a day.
If Dutch died and Hosea had to take over, he definitely head west and definitely stay low. I don't see him abandoning anyone who comes with him and with Hosea he seems more of teacher than Dutch is. During their time staying low he'll probably try to get Arthur, John, and Lenny to help make the bigger decisions and having them make some decisions. Which will give Hosea more time to gather information in Blackwater, more then likely he'll get in touch with Trelawny and with him being conman they'll get along. Hosea's goal like Dutch's is money but instead of causing trouble in a new place for the gang he may spend of most of his time trying to sneak back into Blackwater to get the stash. As for difference in the game most big loud jobs like bank robbing will have a more quite approach or won't happen. I can see Hosea getting Arthur with Trelawny to be snake oil salesmen. To make quick cash. I see more night time burglary like with the stagecoach. Maybe even selling/creating fake bonds. These are some game elements I could see happen if Hosea was in charge. As for story, major changes will happen to some characters and the ending. For story If they head west they'll pass Strawberry and escape Big Valley, when things get quite I can see Hosea moving in closer he may have Arthur and the boys take over the Hanging Dog Ranch and from there Hosea will began his plan to get the Blackwater stash. Once they get the stash then it's the end the boys either live or die. Micah could betray them by ratting them out to the Pinkertons and/or steal the stash for himself and run. The game/story could continue with either Arthur or John hunting Micah down for the money. Arthur won't get TB if they head west because they won't be stopping in Valentine. As for characters most will stay the same but some would have growth like Sean. Once he return he will also be getting the same lessons/treatment like Arthur, John, and Lenny. Then for Micah he won't will last long. Arthur will blame him for Dutch's death and maybe Javier as well since he was with them on the ferry. And knowing Micah he is very loud, prideful, and violent he may see Hosea as nothing more than an old man and try to take over. Which will be the end of him. Next is Molly and she is literally only their for Dutch, without Dutch she may leave on her own or Hosea/Arthur/any of the girl characters could help her overcome that loss and move on. If that happens I would like to see Molly open up more at camp and get along with the other girls or she could become like Sadie in chapter 3, Next is Bill who is like a diet Micah loud, prideful, and violent but it can be controlled/contained and he has respect for Hosea, when he isn't drunk. So him staying is 50/50 if he does stay I think Hosea may send him off with Lenny/Sean as backup both of them being the youngest and still learning the outlaw/conman way. Next is Sadie who may have the worse outcome, if two things don't happen. 1 The gang doesn't go up north to lay low and 2 Micah is the one who spotted her home. So if Hosea decides to head North instead of West and Micah hasn't been shot/run off then Sadie will be like her canon self. Lastly is Kieran who more then likely will not be joining the gang because. He is only caught after the gang attacks the o'driscoll camp in the north and if by some way he is caught, Hosea may kill him so the gang can continue to lay low or he could be pull a Dutch and slowly "persuade" him to join the gang. As for character death I don't see it Happening with Hosea in charge. Hosea is experienced he knows when to hit and when to keep your head down.
If I'm honest, Hosea probably would've given up pretty early. Not like, the instant they get out of the mountains, but he would pretty quickly let the women and children go and once it was down to him and Arthur (and a few others of course) he would've told everybody to just seperate and hide. Then John would've had to help the law kill off Arthur, Micah, and Hosea. Basically the same thing that ultimately happened to Dutch, but much earlier, and a few more people would've lived because Hosea can see the writing on the wall.
Blackwater itself isnt really that big for pinkertons to continue hunting the vanderlinde gang. Is the chaos they make after that. Killing bronte, both grays & braithwaithes, and cornwall. Hell even the reason pinkertons succesfully catch up to them is because of them robbing Cornwall's train. So i dont think RDR John have to hunt Arthur & Hosea
let's say they do due to hidding in the mountains at first glance, then Valentine till the O'Driscolls get the eye of the storm on them, just in time to avoid Arthur getting TB from Downes as the gang moves back west towards Armadillo and Tumbleweed
@@Nikawlos Well if we gonna have things go well into HEA, might as well have him busy to collect the debts or he collets later when Thomas Downes already died
Highly doubt the gang would have been together the same way. Hosea was ready to retire, but Dutch was obsessed with that one last big score that could easily set up their retirement. I don't think Hosea would have left outright, but I think he would have taken the lead for anyone that wanted out to get out and live a more honest life, possibly doing small scores if they come as a given rather than looking for opportunities for illegal activity. For example, Hosea and Shamus: Hosea took a job where he had all the details, could get in good with an individual that could potentially help them and had their blessing when they were family to the victim, and no possible fallout unless caught in the act. I'm thinking he would have split the gang into two by trying to tone down the activity of the gang. The ones who wanted a more peaceful, normal life would go with Hosea. The ones still stuck in their outlaw ways would have carried on as the remnants of the Van Der Linde gang. Micah, Bill, Javier, possibility even Sean and Pearson. It seems to me Pearson wasn't the biggest fan of Hosea based on their interactions and he was originally saved from loan sharks by the gang, so he might feel indebted to the ones still wanting to put up a fight rather than Hosea and the women. John is even a possibility at this point of the story, he might have either stayed with the remnants or went back and forth between groups since even in the epilogue he was having a hard time not doing bad things. It has nothing to do with their feelings of Hosea, it's just they aren't ready to go quite yet. I just highly doubt he would have been planning big heists and all that. He might even discourage others from doing that after Dutch's death.
What was the Immediate aftermath of chapter 6 with the gang? Clearly the gang still existed to some part after Arthur's death and the following days. Abigail, John & Jack were still around. Uncle was there, same with Javier, Charles, a lot of the women, and others too. So far I've seen no one attempt to do this subject. At the very least, i see that the gang would have likely still tried to make it out together for the next few days if not a week or so. Especially considering Dutch likely wouldn't just leave everything all together right after the death of Arthur and the pinkertons.
Edit: Uncle, Pearson, and Mary-Beth ran right before the last train job. Abigail, John, and Jack ran immediately after their reunion. They left behind Tilly and Sadie. Maybe Mary-Beth. Sadie was done without Arthur-the only fool she trusted. Pearson, Swanson, Strauss, Trelawny, and Karen already ran. Charles was in Canada. Javier and Bill probably found Dutch, but Dutch had been reduced to a shell last we saw of him. Dutch abandoned Micah. Uncle's good at jumping ships when they stop floating. All he wanted was free food and good company. So, Uncle, Mary-Beth, and Tilly. What did they have left to come back to? Bill, Javier, and Dutch aren't good company, and they can't cook. Their camp and belongings were a literal hot zone. Fire and swarming Pinkertons. Chances are, Sadie escorted the two girls to safety-with Uncle, if he didn't disappear beforehand. Tilly and Mary-Beth kept in touch, so I assume they were together for a time. One can only guess that Dutch didn't keep Javier or Bill long. Perhaps he told them to go. Perhaps he never said a thing at all.
I feel like Hosea should be the leader he avoids killing but if Dutch has a valid plan like when jack got took and we had to kill our way to Catherine and he showed his evil side because he agrees but if he doesn't agree he seems pussy unsure nervous nonviolent but if the calls up to him he always has a good plan
If Hosea had taken over the gang it would have definitely been more centered around less noise, putting the women and children first, and cons to gain money instead of outright robbery. However, after Blackwater i dont think the gang would even hold together like that. I believe Hosea would understand the position the gang is in and try to have everyone move on. Thoughts? Who or what next?
Keep up the great work man, love your videos
I think this sounds very good. You should try to turn this in a comic book series or start your own. What if series?
I think Hosea and Arthur would attempt to do the real estate scam again or something similar. I think the gang would try to stay together because Hosea would favor scams over big heists.
Some of the more independent members of the gang might leave, but that would just help Hosea's group lie low, which was the real plan. Maybe the gang would split early on, some of the more chaotic members leaving with Micah. The women and non-violent men would become more involved in Hosea's schemes, and their presence would add credence to Hosea's cover story. They might make it all the way to west coast, maybe end up San Fran where there's ample opportunities to con rich folk.
Hosea the sensible and wise one
I think we'd see people like bill and micah move on the second they're out of the mountains. Hosea might turn the gang into more of family of out casts rather than the money making machine dutch focused on, not to say they wouldn't make money but they wouldn't try to be unnecessarily violent or pick fights above them
Saint Denis was his idea + the family feud. They would still have failed but not that rapidly
@@Bruh-fy1jk oh almost certainly the gang would still fail but they'd probably just remain a nuisance around Valentine
@@Bruh-fy1jkno it was Dutches plan that Hosea worked with. But besides that, it was Micah’s fault it failed anyways.
That's the biggest thing that would change is Micha would absolutely out cut from the equation. Hosea would NEVER let Micah come with. Now obviously Micha would still follow just to spite them and get the payday he wanted, but hosea would never let him stay as long as dutch did
I think Bill would stay. He'd definitely be one of the most heartbroken about Dutch, alongside Javier, Molly Hosea and Arthur. But looking at some of his camp interactions he still liked alot of the people in the gang, maybe even like family.
With Dutch being dead, the Pinkertons will let off the pressure and probably focus on Colm after he robs the train. The gang will lay low and probably grab the blackwater money and move West
This is literally what I was thinking about throughout the whole video, thank you
Hosea is an archetype within the world of fiction commonly referred to as "The Voice Of Reason"
The voice of reason is mostly a narrative driver, and is usually the quote unquote "True Leader" of the story.
This person helps influence the false leader, commonly refereed to as "The Politician"
the politician is the person who lacks common sense, but has great charisma and natural speaking skills.
So what happens when The Voice Of Reason dies or the politician stops listening? the whole group falls apart.
Think Piggy and jacks dynamic from Lord Of The Flies.
or Brian and peter from family guy.
Where can I read more about these archetypes? Are these like Jungian?
these are archetypes usually used in the world of cinematic fiction that rip directly off of real world archetypes.
most, if not all writers utilize these types of " characters" for dynamic story telling to portray a sense of conflict, personality, and over arching relatability
but to answer your question more directly- archetypes weren't created by a singular individual, they were more or less developed by multiple writers over history with similar sentiments.
( in this games case, i personally think the stark contrast between characters actually 𝐡𝐞𝐥𝐩𝐬 with the games revolving issue around ludo narrative dissonance rather then damages it.)
@@DProductions-ty4ym
@@DProductions-ty4ym Don't forget the Machiavellian personality type who manipulates the man/woman in power to do his bidding. The Machiavellian rises to power through deceit, always masking their true intentions. They are masters of manipulation, often preying on leaders who may well be charismatic, intelligent but very high in conscientiousness. Or think for example a king with average IQ who inherited all his power. This could grant the Machiavellian absolute power while safely ruling from the shadows. They are not to be compared to a narc or psychopath as they lack the need for the grandiosity. They do not care for recognition, only absolute power. Which makes them much more eerie and so hard to expose.
Thank you for explaining in family guy terms
think flash from the justice league counts since in the episode a better world the JL killed Lex and made a crime free world by lobotomizing every villain after the flash was killed
This is the best scenario. They get back out west and if Arthur even gets sick, he lives a while in the dry warm climate like Doc Holliday.
He’d probably live longer then Doc since Doc was still drinking and smoking like he wasn’t sick 💀💀
He wouldn't get sick.. Hosea wouldn't let Strauss do what he did
@chill6019 Well, wouldn't that be a daisy?
Dutch dying in Blackwater is something I never thought of, there's one person I think you should've mentioned, though, Javier. Javier was far and away the most loyal to dutch and he was also in Blackwater. Do you think he would've died alongside him? And if not, would he be just as loyal to Hosea?
I think he would have been Loyal to Hosea but maybe a bit more willing to challenge him if he disagrees with something. The loss of Dutch probably would harden him, but it's as he said, Javier loves the camp, they are his family now.
He would probably be more loyal to Arthur if Dutch died.
Javier still respected Hosea as co leader and part of the family.
Him taking over after Dutch dying would be an adjustment he could accept as all are already seeing Hosea as second in command.
He also didnt betray the Gang or Dutch for that matter to get the position.
I'd even see Javier follow Hoseas much more safe leadership and plans. As Javier is clearly a man that just needs someone to stir him. And he's loyal till the end.
All his negativity in later chaoters comes from slow decay of faith in dutch and for him directly to the gang.
Yet he never points his gun on his family. So to him its all he has, but young Javier had the heart at the right spot.
Javier would definitely be loyal to Hosea. He seemed to respect his seniority and authority. If Dutch trusts someone, thats good enough for Javier.
I doubt hell be loyal to Hosea
I think Micah would be kicked out or killed after the first mission. Hosea would take Dutch’s role as leader and would probably be irate after Micah burnt down Sadies home and their one chance at a good sanctuary. He’d either have Arthur kill him there or he’d kick him out into the blizzard were he’d die from frostbite or make it back to New Hanover were he’d probably get captured by local law for starting something stupid.
Hosea probably wouldn’t go after the O’Driscolls so they would rob Cornwalls train and take the heat off of the gang as the rescued John and started moving west as Colm went east into New Hanover.
The gang would probably still rescue Sean as well since they’d be moving through the territory west of strawberry and likely cross near where he’d be getting transported, so it’d be an easy save.
The gang would gradually transit from being highway robbers to being a more organized type of crime syndicate. Instead of robbing banks and people they’d run financial scams and protection rackets. In dry states, which were a thing before prohibition out west, they may even become early bootleggers. Overall they’d probably make a good amount of cash and I don’t think anyone would leave. The gang would probably stay together without Micah or Dutch creating rifts with its members and Hosea would probably have Arthur shut down any bank robbing or noise creating activities that would keep the gang quiet but happy.
The only people I could see leaving would be Molly and Karen. Molly for obvious reasons with Dutch but Karen because she’d naturally fall out as a drunk (something Hosea wouldn’t tolerate). Bill and Javier would probably stay around with Hosea giving them constant work and Arthur taking more of a leadership role as the lead enforcer, probably at hosea’s request. Charles and John would stay out of not having problems with Dutch’s leadership, and may not even drift off as the gang wouldn’t have nearly as much heat and would be “more legitimate” as an organized crime syndicate. Sean and Lenny would probably thrive with Sean taking after Arthur and Lenny taking after Hosea as the “new guard”. Uncle would be uncle and the rest of the camp would probably stick around with no big reason to leave. Strauss specifically would take a much larger role and would be key to Hosea’s more organized style of crime. Overall the gang would be in good shape and would probably settle in a western state like California or Oregon where they’d fit right in without any large local bounties over their heads.
I like this theory. You've got me convinced that Dutch should've died in Blackwater, as well as Micah. A lot of the gang's problems came from those two.
@@ForestWolf1757yep those two were the main problems Dutch's insistence on noise and Micah's nasty, toxic, and treacherous behaviour.
Hosea was terminally ill if I remember correctly. It would look more like he would try to give life for everyone, a life far from fear if you even wake up the next day, basically he would act more like chapter 6 Arthur trying to ensure that everybody is well and safe. I don't think he would just give the choice of leaving but actively encourage for another way of life simillar how he did with John in the game
It was from the smoking I believe
Since Micah was recruited by Dutch, if he got arrested in strawberry like in the main story, Hosea probably would leave Micah since Micah is unhinged but that’s if Micah stays with the gang
Or he might be sending Arthur, but rather than to see Micah saved, to see Micah killed before he talks.
What does unhinged mean
@@mohamedkhider6998 use google
crazy @@mohamedkhider6998
@@mohamedkhider6998 bat shit insane more or less
With Hosea's planning and intelligence and Arthur and John as the muscle I think the gang would have lasted much longer. I bet at least Micah would have left maybe some others too.
Micah and bill most likely, I feel like Sean and Lenny would’ve stayed especially if they still saved Sean
Lenny would also be the brains of the gang seeing how he was somewhat hoseas apprentice
Uncle on the logistics of robbery planning he is actually a genius
@@nickbuckley4371I love uncle the only thing that makes stops him is lumbago
Hosea is pretty flawed too. The bank job in Saint Denis was Hosea's idea. Hosea also was for conning the Gray's and Braithwaits. Things would have still ended poorly for the gang regardless.
another aggressive side that can be seen in Hosea is random events in camp like the drunk Bill incident, he can be seen more or less telling Micah to f off, he can also be seen screaming at shaun for sleeping on guard duty, and there's another one for javier I think but I can't remember how it goes
he was still calm during the drunk bill, he was just doing the only thing that made bill realise he needed to fuck off
and sean was literally compromising the entire gangs safety by sleeping
I wish Hosea got more missions and screen time in the game. Every scene he was in made the game feel that much more alive.
The biggest thing that would change is Micha would absolutely out cut from the equation. Hosea would NEVER let Micah come with. Now obviously Micha would still follow just to spite them and get the payday he wanted, but hosea would never let him stay as long as dutch did
Honestly without dutch keeping micah safe i'm pretty sure arthur would've just shot him in colter or at the very least not got him out of prison
@@cantinadudes You're probably right, but Micah wouldn't be in prison since it was Dutch who sent both Lenny and Micah to scout. So he wouldn't be hanged later on in Strawberry.
@@filmfabriken_real true
Micha would’ve just been cut out period. The guy knows no one likes him and Hosea now as the gang leader wouldn’t tolerate his shit. After they get off the MTs the gang would head west and micha would stay so he can get the money once the heat dies down
As long as Micah suffers. Im fine with Hosea being the leader
When he draws on Bill and shouts that he's "excused [him] enough" was very tight
I think a cool what if scenario would be if the gang decided to return to their Robin Hood inspired roots and started directing their criminal activities towards solely the corrupt or even just straight up turned to vigilantism, go the Batman route? I don't know, just something that's been floating around in my head this past week or so.
I like this prospect
Onestly it's pretty clear to me that the "Robin Hood" style they were talking about wasn't even real, it was just them believing in Dutch's vision. How were they even a Robin Hood gang anyway? By robbing banks, killing lawmen, stealing cattle and ruining people's lives just to be "nice" with the least fortunate? That's a delusion right there.
Many are saying Micah would be totally out of the equation, but I disagree. It's pretty strongly implied throughout the game that the only thing Micah cares about throughout the time we know him is the Blackwater money, which is as good as gone with Dutch either not being alive to secure it or not living long enough to reveal the location of the stash. Micah's efforts will be for naught, and he would almost certainly be cast out by Hosea and Arthur, so he's going to want his pound of flesh. If Micah survived he would most likely begin operating as a direct enemy to the gang, either by ratting to the Pinkertons much earlier or by selling the gang out to the nearby O'Driscolls.
as i said under your post i think it would be more likely for arthur to become leader because hes already the tough guy of the gang who under his wanted poster even says "do not approach"
didnt even see the vid before i said this lol
I disagree. Arthur is somewhat the face of the gang, but he lacks the ambition for leadership. If Dutch died, I doubt Arthur would feel “worthy” to take his place. End of the day, he’s a follower, he gets things done, but he doesn’t call the shots himself.
@@jaegercat6702 He's Dutch's brawler, he is given a job to do and does it well, but as far as I remember every single time Dutch isnt sure what to do Arthur is just as clueless. Only once he gets TB and realizes Dutch has lost it does he start doing things himself.
As "cool" as that may be to see Arthur as the King on the throne, hes more so the knight that rides out. Slaying Dragons.
Besides Dutch only Hosea has the qualities, skillset and respect of tve Gang to fill that seat. Arthur and John would fill in beside him thou. Holding council and leading the Gang forward together.
Lets also nlt forget that Hosea is much more down to earth. Seeing the Gang eye to eye and spending alot of personal time with them. Unlike Dutch who occasionally descents from his big tent to throw a speech.
So i wouldnt even be suprised if he'd involve everyone in the dessisions. Acknowledging talebts like Lenny just as he did Johns actual literacy and intellect.
As Hosea is the kinda guy that motivates the beat out of people like the social and wise man he is.
@@KOL00K
Wait really????
I think putting aside an obvious case like Micah, most of the gang will stay under Hosea’s leadership provided they are alive and well. I don’t have much insights into the women and children of the camp, but for the gunslingers.
Arthur:
- Looks up to Hosea and probably considers him a father-figure
John:
- I’m not entirely sure about John’s relationship with Hosea, but he and Hosea were the first to sense that Dutch had gone nuts. John is very keen and logical, he knows he’s in good hands under Hosea.
Javier:
- Javier has unwavering loyalty towards Dutch, the man who saved him when he was lost and hungry in foreign land, he has stated that the gang is his family and it is his home, it is highly unlikely he would leave because they are moving on from the life of outlaw and gunfighting
Bill:
- Same thing as Javier, loyalty towards Dutch, found solace in the camp. Neither of them are particulary chaos creator like Micah, they’re not looking to shootup towns for fun, they’ll stick with the gang because it’s all they’ve ever known after hitting rock bottom.
Lenny:
- Shares alot of Hosea’s ideology, he has great desire for companionship and he says that if he dies, he wants to be buried ith his friends.
Sean:
- Can’t be too sure about Sean but he seems to be really close with Arthur and he’s very carefree so I can’t imagine that he’d be against Hosea becoming the leader who takes on a more passive path
Charles:
- I don’t think I need to say much about Charles, he sticks through thick and thin and arguably one of the smartest, logical and virtuous outlaw equal to Hosea.
(Cases where members will stay but leave eventually)
Sadie:
- Sadie is hard to break apart but I’m highly leaning towards that she would leave the gang if they do not match her motive for revenge; that revenge against O Driscoll isn’t just out of hatred, it was the last thing she could strive for before she’d let herself free. Sadie would fight tooth and nails to get out of camp and hunt Colm herself if she has to, even if the gang supports her, I doubt Sadie would stick around for long; the gang is a friend and home to her but to me, it felt like it was never permanent. She has to move on by herself and find her life somewhere far away.
Micah:
- He would stay and try to convince some to his side, someone like Arthur until he either gets the boot or leaves by himself out of frustration.
Strauss:
- Arthur’s gonna send his ass and I think Hosea would send him even earlier, even someone like Dutch hated Strauss’s line of work, without Dutch vouching for him (because he makes money), he’s gonna get the boot.
I don’t I don’t 100% agree with you but one thing I say your wrong about is Sadie if Dutch died they would never find her cause I don’t think they would have went up in the mountains
Sean would stay. Everyone but micah who arthur or john would eventually shoot would stay. Its not dutch its the group they care about.
I never noticed till looking at Hosea in this video that he has a cavalry draw for his holster.
I like to believe that if Dutch were to indeed die and Hosea were to become the new "temporary" leader, he'd try to make Arthur or John more ready for the position. He'd probably kick out Micah as most of the worst plans came from him but other members were free to come and stay or to leave.
He didn't care much for John leaving for one year and would've probably talked to Dutch about letting the girls and Jack leave so we could probably infer he doesn't care if gang members wanted to leave.
He probably would've stayed a lot more on the "scam" side of his hustle, ie. talking to rich folks and then robbing them blind and getting out before being caught and probably in a whole other state. He has shown to be more cautious than Dutch and enjoys the more silent heists instead of doing loud and dumb things like robbing a train with the Pinkertons and O'Driscolls nearby.
He would probably tell the gang about his illness and how they shouldn't expect him to be Dutch 2.0.
He would've had more time to work more people in Valentine, I remember he was talking about doing something there before the whole shootout ruined it all.
Lastly, I'm unsure if he would actually change the gang name to "The Matthews Gang" as "The Van Der Linde Gang" had become much more reputable over the years and was presumably used the last 20+ years Hosea and Dutch were together. He doesn't seem to be the kind of person to really want his name in the spotlight and would probably keep the name the same due to the aforementioned reputation and as tribute to his late friend.
This could have a part two, because Hosea had an illness, so what would happen if both Dutch and Hosea died, who would take over?
Arthur, since the three are known for deciding the gang’s course of action. Dutch exclusively consulted Arthur and Hosea in their earlier days because those two founded the gang, picked up young Arthur and that was the OG three (Leader, Co-Leader, Enforcer) and John was picked up after Arthur.
@@Neutral_1zed
What about grimshaw
@@Neutral_1zedArthur and John taking over after Dutch and hoseas death would be quite amazing idea, cause Arthur and John were raised by Dutch and Hosea and they are not quite different
Arthur would probably assume command with John as his right hand man. Micah would probably make an issue of it but Arthur and John would likely either kick him out or just outright kill him.
Damn. Now I want an alternate universe where Arthur and John run the gang
I agree greatly truly Hosea was a legend to hold and having take the reigns after such a grand scenario of Dutch dying in blackwater and lending all those in the gang a ear and a hand to give them the true lives they deserve or can get the chance to live would be really a fantastic thing and I could only imagine a day for all them living the lives they wish and coming once in a while to speak to one another in a special place to enjoy each others company as not just a gang but one true family
I think Hosea likes using the more conman approach because it’s less noisy, but he will definitely throw down when it’s called for too. He’s definitely a don’t mistake his calmness for weakness or you will pay dearly.
hosea would take over for just long enough to get everyone to safety then he will disband the gang and tell them to live a normal life kinda like Arthur in chapter 6, hosea already lost hope in the life of outlaws so he wouldn't want to go for more robberies and fight against the law and Dutch death will push that idea
And then John would've been forced to hunt Arthur and Hosea down, exact same way RDR1 happened.
What? That makes zero sense lol
The Pinkertons would literally not even know who John is@@torpid5092
@@torpid5092 that will depend on how active they are, I think the reason you hunt down Bill, Javier and Dutch is because they are still active criminals that terrorise people, if Arthur and hosea settle down and stop committing crimes maybe they will be forgotten or at least the government will force Arthur to do their bidding instead of john
@@torpid5092John wouldn’t kill Arthur or turn him in
@@stephenambrose8223 I think that is debatable, if he would hunt down Bill and Javier who he seemed to get along with decently then the guy he disliked for a long time wouldnt be too far off
Hosea always struck me of the definition of “don’t take my kindness for weakness”. He’s still one of the better gunslingers in the gang and by far the smartest. He just doesn’t tend to display the raw cultish charisma of Dutch and definitely showed more love to the group. It isn’t stated outright but I always assumed that Hosea taught John and Arthur how to read and write for example. Not because it’s useful for the gang (though it was) but because it would give them the best shots at life.
"Always fear an old man in a career where men die young"
Kuze
Spartan quote goes hard
I had a similar AU idea some time ago.
Instead of Davey getting shot on the road out of Blackwater and dying in Colter, Dutch does instead.
"If I could throw myself in the ground in their place-"
Davey! How you doing?
@@thegamingvillager2392 About as good as can be expected... but the news is not good.
@@darkebuddha I don't know what you're talking about.
@@thegamingvillager2392
That's... That's how Davey responds in GTA V...
Michael says Davey, How You Doing?
Davey says About As Good As Can Be Expected.
@@darkebuddha That's what Michael says too btw wait what idk
I'd say because Hosea also lived in the mountains or grew up in, it's very likely that he'd think the best way to lose them is in the mountains. They would've probably tried to block any roads to get away and force them to go north anyway. Micah would stay calm and be like as if he felt very bad for what happened and Javier if he was still there would demand revenge the most. By scouting the area, they would still find Sadie, but as already said, they'd just avoid any drama with the O'Driscoll's. Hosea already knew of Horseshoe Overlook and Valentine so they'd probably go there anyways, considering that the Pinkertons and bounty hunters would be all over the place and make it difficult for them to immediately move West as they would find out by sending scouts if they even tried to go West. Arthur would hold the gang together and they would look mostly to what he does and just follow him and Hosea would have to take his time to grief and think of what to do next and whatever happened to Sean and the guy they had. Hosea would rely on Arthur's opinion and they would both end up leading the gang with Hosea being the brain and Arthur being the force that holds everyone together as they would see him as reflection of Dutch because everyone knows he was his most trusted man next to Hosea. Hosea has his own personality and they'd see him more like a sweet Granddad. John would still get saved if he was lost and when Micah and Lenny go out scouting and Micah gets arrested, then he'd stay there and receive his punishment. Not just because they don't like him and blame him for a lot but also because they'd understand that showing up in West Elizabeth for him to free him from jail would be stupid and draw too much attention. The gang would stay together and Javier might think of going back to recover Dutch's body, but he might get calmed down and instead they'd find out about Sean and try to rescue him. Javier would be a bit more emotional and put a lot of pressure on saving John and Sean as he wouldn't want them to go out too and know that Dutch wouldn't want that neither. Arthur would probably have to talk with him sometimes to calm him down and make him focus and Javier would listen to him. They would give themselves some time and would probably move on a little more north near Ambarino to not let too many folks finding out that some people built a little settlement near Valentine. Hosea would still get in contact with Seamus because they need every way of making money. Before they leave, Hosea and Arthur would consider getting rid of Micah before he gets hanged, because they would think that if no one's coming, then he might tell them where they are to gain his freedom that way. Then they would look if the coast is clear to move on and if they see a way to slip through and go West to maybe Reno since they already were in Reno before, they might just move everyone out and have a few of the boys and maybe Karen too go rob the bank in Valentine to leave with a good amount of money to make a new start in Nevada. The Pinkertons wouldn't go so hard against them anyway, because with Agent Milton leading this operation, they would already be pleased enough with Dutch's death and would only hunt them down for the potential danger they still pose. The hunt for the O'Driscoll's would distract them a lot tho and that's what would clear the way for the gang to slip through because the O'Driscoll's would fight back very hard and with Cornwall being so pushy, they would have to spend most of their focus and men to join with the deputies and fight the O'Driscoll's and get Colm.
Milton did say they only wanted Dutch even with other members wanted dead or alive laying low would’ve kept them safe for a very long time
You trust what a cop says you are a fool 😂😂
@@Darthdoodoo if Dutch was dead Milton would’ve had no reason to worry about the rest of the gang especially if they didn’t bring attention to themselves
@@Darthdoodoo Milton barely even recognizes *Hosea* lmao, do you really think he’d be able to pursue a gang he knows nothing about?
@@audellaroque4730 my point stands. if you trust with a cop says you're a fool its that simple. They are untrustworthy period
@@Darthdoodoo ehhh, milton was willing to offer pardons to even arthur morgan to hand over dutch. getting the dutch gang initially seemed to be more about appeasing cornwall i guess. milton saw them as small fry compared to the other gangs until the saint denis bullshit they pulled.
Like uncle, Hosea is an old man in a profession where young men die.
The gang falls apart faster. The gang is connected by Dutch’s charm. Every single person is only there because of something Dutch did for them. It would splinter into factions and dissolve quicker than it did in the story without that single unifying star
People like Micah and Bill yes, but why would John or Arthur leave?
*Disband you mean.
Onestly I think the gang was pretty much done after Blackwater.
Dutch was the only thing keeping it together and it wouldn't matter what they did with Hosea. Sure, most of them would probably stick around, but even by keeping a low profile there was nothing they could do.
Dutch's plan of going to Tahiti was delusional, but even more delusional was Hosea's plan to go back west: even if they somehow managed to do that, they couldn't escape the law forever. Where would they go? California? Seattle? Down south to Mexico? British Canada?
The US was bringing down every last remaning gang and police forces were becoming better and better in tracking them and hunting them down and all of this was 8 years before the FBI was formed.
Even if they somehow managed to reach Tahiti or some other "tropical paradise" it would have been the same old story for them: the game clearly shows you that supposedly "untamed" places like Guarma are struggling against the US and other imperialist Powers and it's obviously a war they can't win.
Hosea would have (at best) delayed the gang demise of a couple of years IF they all layed low and didn't commit any major crime, which is almost impossible if we consider people like Micah, Sean or Bill always trying to prove themselves or some shit like that.
I feel like another positive thing that could’ve possibly come out of this scenario is that it definitely would’ve reduced the heat on the gang as a whole. In many instances during the game, the leader of a gang was killed or captured and after the elimination of the leader the remaining members of the gang were mostly forgotten about by the Law. After the death of Colm, it seems like the Law mostly stopped caring about the remaining members of the O’driscoll gang. In the case of some of the bounties the player went after, there would be bounty posters showing an enforcer for the gang in particular and then the leader soon after, then once the leader was captured bounty posters for the specific gang stopped being posted.
If Dutch was eliminated, the rest of the gang probably wouldn’t have as much heat on them because it seems like the law in this version of America essentially just decides that “it isn’t worth the resources” once taking out the main leaders of a gang (they may start caring sometime later down line, but the gang will have time to make plans for that).
Hey dude thank you so much for pointing out Hosea's attitude towards Catherine Braithewaite. I never looked at it that way despite my 4000 plus hours of RDR2. You're right. Hosea can be a hard man when he wants. Thanks dude.
If this had happened, would Arthur have been able to realise how to be a good man and have an arc similar to when he got TB? I feel Hosea would have helped him if the gang disbanded
id say yes, he'd find it through being with mary linton and learning to forgive john. however, it wouldnt have been as penetrating to his character, only the TB could help him truly break the mental shackles of not being allowed to oppose dutch for decades, rendering him a semi-slave.
@@tyler361t2That's the thing Dutch is no longer around in this scenario.
Everybody that knew how to take advantage of Dutch's weakness for grandeur and illusion did - Hosea was absolutely smart enough to do so and likely was a driving force in keeping what Dutch became at bay for many many years. That means he was likely the real leader of the gang, because ultimately he was Dutch's advisor and mentor.
Having said that by 1899 there wasn't much untamed west left and the gang found themselves in ever increasingly industrial land, the days of an outlaw gang were numbered, regardless of who ran the show.
We see a peak into what an alternative narrative could have looked like with in the Epilogue, when a gang is primarily using economic force to increase their wealth and numbers, strong arming smaller ranchers to hand over their lands or run them out. If the gang had stayed together with Hosea at the helm that's the direction he would have taken them.
"That means he was likely the real leader of the gang"
no, he was just the only thing keeping dutch in check. dutch ultimately had the final call on anything but hosea's input was listened to.
The events of the first game would have been way different
Thank you so much for making these videos, I work a delivery job & I can now reliably have a source that talks about Red Dead 2 beyond “Check out this glitch! This is where this item is!!” Youre asking the best questions & providing the best speculation & I love listening to these while I work, I LOVE that you put in the reference clips. Keep up the great work. You’re making me keep this game installed currently on ps5, inspiring me to play this late night instead of something else
It stands to reason that arthur wouldn't have gotten TB because events would be just different enough **at least** without dutch constantly bearing down about money, arthur may not have ever really taken on strauss's jobs. I think hosea would potentially give blackwater some time, and then try to retrieve that money.
4:02 no, the event that resulted in law enforcement chasing them was blackwater. choosing to go to the mountains had nothing to do with it.
When I think about the characters of Hosea and Dutch, I’d say they are both smart, intelligent leaders in different areas and ways. When it comes to making a move on a lead Dutch seems the sort to go in half cocked I suppose, like with the supposed post office heist of Saint Denis, Dutch immediately took the opportunity to rob the place without any investigation and just takes Bronte’s word for it. Hosea seems the type to play the game intelligently, he waits for a good lead, a good opportunity and plays it carefully instead of carelessly pouncing on every situation like a predator unaware that it’s pouncing on a trap.
Dutch is a great leader who can influence people like no other, he is very well spoken and picks his words carefully, Dutch always comes across as kind but strong and would happily blow an innocents woman’s brains out on a ferry. For Hosea he lacks the strong leader part as he’s very old and even decrepit due to his illness, he will speak wisdom to those who want to hear it and can influence those with a conscience, he would certainly struggle to influence 🐀, Bill and Javier, as their mindless loyalty to Dutch would probably shake them enough that they might just disappear.
If Dutch died and Hosea assumed leadership I reckon the whole time that the events that RDR2 span across would be spent laying low and taking some small easy picking here and there.
House burning, Braithwaite dying, says “MISTER!” Hosea: Mathewwwss - 😅❤
Red Dead Redemption would be about Jack Marston leaving the town or ranch the gang formed somewhere out West called Dutchosea after having a great time growing up but having to find his own life and purpose out there, having to lead the new generation of members and defend them from remaining gangs and former members who went rogue (maybe Bill Williamson) finally learning to be a real man out there
from playing this Red Dead Redemption 2 game and taking my time with the game, I think that if Hosea was in charge he wouldn't rob the train, he would have creative plan on getting the money from Blackwater without violence but con with stealth approach, would have focus on instructing Strauss to target corrupt businessman with debt instead of people who are poor, could have cared for the women including children, and many others. Also what I like about Hosea is how he cared for the members of the gang, pointed out the flaws of Dutch including Micah when they would cause destruction with criminal obsession, helping Arthur on advice for life, and many others. I think that Hosea would have come up with a better plan to recover the Blackwater money like using creative approach like master of disguise, stealth approach, and many others. Also if Hosea was in charge I think he would have left Micah to rot in jail for being selfish to the gang, causing pain with his criminal obsession, and many others.
Hosea is the kind of person to just give himself to the Pinkertons so the gang could be spared. He's at an age where he isn't afraid to die, he just wants to know that the people he cares about are safe. Hosea dying has got to be the most painful moment in the whole story. It's possible Dutch could have kept his mind had Hosea been around to give guidance.
Here is another question how would dutches death affect the events of the first game
This is interesting. I personally don't think anyone but Hosea could become the leader if Dutch died. He's as much of a father figure to Arthur as Dutch was so he'd have Arthur's complete loyalty. That alone would stop anyone, except maybe Bill but who knows with Bill, from challenging Hosea to become the leader. I really don't think anyone would though.
Long term I think Hosea would probably achieve the goal of leading the gang out west and buying some land. I think that would end the gang though. I can't see Bill, Javier, or Kenny settling down to a quiet life. Miss Grimshaw, Pearson, Abigail, and Grandpa would most likely stay. Charles and the rest are all maybes but I think most would depend on the situation. Depending on how things went with John I could even see Arthur leaving after Hosea died. I think that's the real reason Dutch didn't buy the land before Blackwater, he knew it would be the end of the gang.
I wonder if Hosea might be willing to wait till Colm hits the train, and THEN bushwhacking Colm, let Colm take the heat from Cornwall AND take his score from him!
This was great you should do a video on what if reverend swanson and uncle actually did something and how different the story would be if they were actually useful in some type of way(what there roles on helping the gang would be)
Plot twist.....
In this version Dutch did die but he wasn't shot , he slipped on a bullet casing and cracked his own skull falling and died .
????
The Matthews gang is a good name
Hosea had already left the life once before and I think he sees opportunities the rest of the gang are too short sighted to see any longer. I think he would stick to the plan of laying low, move west and disband once everyone was safe in their new life.
Cynic just dropped it's about to be a good day
Someone needs to do a full what if stroy for this
Yesterday, i watched Bill and Hosea have a heart to heart. Hosea told Bill that he is a good guy that was just in the wrong place at the wrong time. Bill was touched, walked away, then Hosea started laughing at Bills lack of picking up on his sarcasm.
I bet that members who were really attached to dutch, like susan, Bill, and micah, would all move on. after that, hosea would have actually fulfilled the plan, which was to lie low, then head out west, or go to the tropics.
Edit: fixed my terrible spelling
susan would stay, bill is 50 50, micah would move on or get shot
Hosea wouldn’t have been able to keep people like Bill in line. He was the wise man of the bunch but he didn’t have Dutch’s charisma or ability to control a room. He would have eventually lost control of Bill, Javier, and probably Sean.
Sean is already pretty respectful to Hosea, whenever he got scolded for sleeping he turns into a scaredy cat just saying "sorry, i ah". That's Sean, the guy who trashtalk everyone including Arthur
I think the gang would have been better off without Dutch. The gang would not have to deal with Dutch's ego that got the gang into a lot of bad situations.
Hosea: “Arthur, Micah’s been arrested in Strawberry they’re going to hang him”
Arthur: “And?”
Hosea: “nothing just making conversation”
I like to imagine the gang would still eventually split apart but in a more positive note like you said where Hosea doesnt mind if they leave since the world doesnt want them anymore
Eventually i think the only remaining member would be Hosea, Charles, Sadie, Arthur, the Marstons, Grimmshaw, and Uncle and now theyll act more like a family than a gang
Everyone else wouldve left to either live a normal life or continue their pursuit of the criminal life and die (Micah, Bill)
thinking on it now, Bill might still go and make his own gang if he's too stubborn or heck even be the one to put Micah down cause most would likely blame him for Dutch's death like you say, Javier might try & help the rest or start living off somewhere tolerable and be a drifter and wouldn't have gone crazy as he did in rdr1 while Arthur & Hosea try and support John & his family as best they can and Uncle might even step up once Arthur's symptoms start getting worse and Sadie & Charles would've stayed a bit longer,,,,
You know what this would have been interesting if we had a game showing this alternate route where dutch is killed and hosea is the leader and micah becomes priority one to put an end to if he does not cooperate and knowing how hosea saw some of them we would see either see bill siding with micah and pull something similar as the o driscols and those who choose to go with hosea, arthur for sure as his right hand, and lenny as the brains of this new gang, sadie might be somewhere in this as well as charles there is an alternate story that might sound interesting just to see where it all goes.
Great analysis. People often underestimate characters like Hosea in real life because of the general black or white thinking we humans possess. It preserves energy but makes us easy prey for evildoers who spend all their energy analyzing all your characteristics until they know you inside out and utterly destroy you.
Arthur + Hosea would take the lead they complete each other so good
some would leave the gang but the rest will be loyal guys like kenny john charles swanson maybe strauss and a lot of them girls ofc
and they are the oldest members of the gang i think
If hosea became leader it would solely come down to how well him and arthur can figure out micah being a manipulator, I doubt he would succeed in manipulating hosea so I recon he would stage his death, however if Arthur and Hosea are aware and have awareness to his manipulation (which doesn’t really show in the story until the end when its already too late) then im sure they would banish him from the gang and hosea with arthur by his side would focus on following the actual plan and most likely succeed in leaving America or fail when robbing a place and not having the expertise of dutch and ultimately ending with the gangs demise
I feel like with Dutch dead and up in the mountains. I feel like Hosea would push Arthur to start actually thinking for himself and start pushing Arther to start thinking like Hosea did in Clemens Point Because when you read Arthur’s journal, he’ll actually say in it how he considers Hosea his actual father figure and with Dutch out of the way (a master class manipulator and the only reason Arthur starts picking up on his manipulations is because of his limited time) Arther would start to act more and more like the person he wants to be and not who he thinks he is. So long story short, Hosea would fill Dutch’s position as the leader, Arther would fill in Hosea’s spot after some personal growth, and John might take Arther’s position as the enforcer.
One thing for sure is they won't rob Cornwall's train so the shootout in Valentine won't happen giving them alot more time to gather money to move on.
I cant remember which mission, but it’s somewhere in Chpt 2 where Hosea gives Arthur something or talks about getting something but how the owner was dead. Basically insinuating that he killed the owner to get whatever he got. I think some people see Hosea’s caution as cowardice and his age as being feeble, but neither is true. Especially because in his younger years, Hosea wasnt afraid to get his hands dirty. Since The Van Der Linde gang used to be just Arthur, Hosea, and Dutch with members like John, Javier, and Bill coming afterwards.
In the hidden dialogue it's shown that even though Sean can annoy Hosea with his laziness, he still sees Hosea as a father figure and probably wouldn't have left the gang.
I’ve actually put a lot of thought into what I would do in Dutch’s position, 1 hit the O’Driscoll camp in the mountains (to steal the dynamite.) 2 I would leave the mountains and forget about the train job(they just kicked a hornet’s nest in blackwater more heat is a bad idea all the robberies in chapter two would still happen. There was no Cornwall robbery so the valentine shootout doesn’t happen. I would still move on to Scarlett Meadows for new score opportunities. But no Cornwall stage job. The bank in Valentine and that one stagecoach job would still happen and shady belle would be cleared. And I would have played one side of that feud to pick off the other side than deal with the remaining one. Chapter 4 I would hit the riverboat casino and the bank. And then I’d move to Mexico. (Maybe that job stealing dynamite in van horn would still happen to blow the bridge to get the law distracted
Theres also random encounters at camp where random people show and Hosea is the one defusing the situation
I love how arthur can get on his horse and travel from far north to the extreme south then east and west across the entire country but it takes sooo much effort and money to get the gang out of there. Why they couldn't just start going wherever they want while doing whatever to get money as they go is stupid. Needing one last score is the reason they were destroyed.
Dutch ? Dutch ? DUTCH ! DUUUUTTTTCCCCHHHH. ARTHUR YOU CREATED A TIME PARADOX !!!!
All i know is that if hosea didnt die he would be the first one to lure micah far away from the camp and together with arthur kill him. Hosea would also take john and arthurs side in the end. He would be the first to try and stop dutch and the first to shoot him if all else fails
what if arthur had lumbago? serious...
This is interesting because I don't know if most of the people on the Blackwater job would have stuck together. Micah was there to take advantage of Dutch, Javier was loyal to him, Sean seemed to have a great deal of respect for him too. John was also pretty shaky often doubtful. Hosea didn't have the command that Dutch did and was more a senior advisor at times.
Everyone has a limit for their patience, including hosea
While Hosea may have taken over I think he would have started the transition to Arthur becoming the leader quickly. Hosea knows his time is short and Arthur would have been the best choice. The gang might lose Micha, Bill, and Javier but with them gone even less noise would be made making an escape much more possible. Arthur, John, Charles, perhaps Sadie (depending on if they still found her) would still make a solid core eventually ending in a larger Beachers hope style ranch. Perhaps settling in hanging dog ranch?
To add on to that I feel Hosea would’ve sent someone like Sadie or anyone in the gang who’s face isn’t plastered on wanted posters to go and grab the money from blackwater before heading out went then to whoever wants to leave he would give them a cut to help them start a new life and I feel like Hosea would probably just let Micah be hanged in strawberry due to the fact he would get the law’s attention on the gang
hearing this version of hosea being a leader makes it seem like he could be red harlow if it isn't uncle or john.
Hosea would probably kick some of the members the gang. I did think bill would try to convince him let him stay and Hosea would allow it
Hosea’s role in chapter 3 makes me have serious doubts about if he is the best candidate for leadership. He happily went along with dutch’s strategy of playing both sides in that feud between grays and braithwaites, so like dutch he sometimes tries to eat more than he can chew and considers himself smarter than everyone else (arthur did warn about that strategy, not hosea). I also have my doubts if he could impose his authority to some of the gang members like Bill or Javier, as he is clearly not in his prime (not saying he is weak though)…the gang at that time is being chased by pinkertons and needs at that moment someone who knows how to survive off grid, like arthur or charles, till they get west and away from pinkertons and civilization…they got no experience as leaders and no extravagant charisma, but i think they know just how to make people respect and appreciate them, they would make better decisions to survive than hosea, they are calm and stable, and they got no desire for power which ironically can make them great leaders, and arthur in particular the deadliest member of the gang, so he can impose his will if he has to…my personal preference would be arthur leader, with hosea and charles as advisors
I think if this was the scenario Hosea would want Arthur to leave with Mary, or Mary would join the gang again with them living passive lives and would probably use the remaining money to buy a huge ranch after Arthur meeting with her the first time
I like the Way you said Hosea would try to send the gang to live their lives, he takes on the tole Arthur does in Beaver Hollow
The Pinkertons would be after the O'Driscolls because of the train heist and, with Dutch dead, Blackwater probably woudn't be on lockdown. If we asume Hosea to not have any issues taking the money that killed Dutch, the gang would have returned for the Blackwater money then vanished like Dutch wanted.
Or more likely tracked down like John was in the original because one of the themes of both games is the Wild West dying.
Telling you, I would never have seen him as the boss. Kind of like a consigliere in the mob. One certainly not to be crossed, but operates primarily as an advisor. The leader in this sense would be Arthur, whose decisions would be run by Hosea to examine the different angles/scenarios.
The nature of their gang was a tight knit group, requiring a very engaged boss who could act quickly without hesitation. That's Arthur in spades.
One of the biggest tragedies of the gang was they were led by a delusional egomaniac. Arthur was the best leader who never was.
I also think that Sadie would’ve never joined the gang, because the search for John was held by Dutch, Micah, and Dutch before they found the Addler residence and Micah burnt it down. If it were just Arthur, as of your prospect that Micah would be kicked or killed, then he would just go with Javier to find him and would focus on that alone.
The best What If i could think of is what if Dutch admired Arthur/Charles plan where they were helping out the Natives as they were trying to be legitimate with the Reservation. I think having the Gang living with the Natives would've been a great diversion towards the Pinkertons because if Rains Fall convinced the Army to live freely than the Pinkertons cant hunt down the gang because free Natives would be at its crossfire - causing the Pinkertons to crumble
I remember seeing Hosea draw his gun on bill and told him to go sober up, at that time Hosea was cemented him as a leader even more so than Dutch because he is old and knows he's got a few decent years left...he's lived, loved and experienced a whole lot.
Arthur, John, Javier, Charles, Lenny would definitely stay for a while until the women and children are safe and I'll go into more detail bout most the characters and what they'd do.
Who knows Micah would probably leave to form his own gang (and ngl he'd probably get a big score and disapper or die trying).
Bill would most likely stay for a while but then go off on his own and live a life as a gunmen for hire or get picked off by the pinkertons.
Sadie would probably go off into the bounty hunting business and make a name for herself.
The girls would flourish in the city and I believe the 3 would go look for love and a career.
John and his family, Uncle included could very well go to a nicer place and settle on a farm but not blackwater.
Hosea and Arthur would probably stay together for a while until Hosea may convince him to find Marry and live out his life with her. whilst Hosea could teach Lenny a whole lot more and after hosea passes he stays like close little brother to Arthur.
Charles could very well go with John or something along the lines of livinga normal life.
The rest would just become citizens like Pierce and Tranlawney, Strauss.
Sean would probably die to hanging as the crew wouldn't find him but if they did he'd go off with Karen somewhere.
but this is all subjected to my opinion but this is if they all manged to get away...a truly unheard of ending in western times.
I think a few male gang members would just get out if Dutch died, since his image as a brave king of thieves appealed more to them than Hosea's pragmatic and skeptic world view. The gang exiters would be most certainly Javier and Micah, since both were more connected to Dutch than to anyone else, while Bill could also exit if he were to adopt his more criminal ish persona we see in RDR1. The rest of them, basically John, Arthur, Lenny, Charles, Sadie and Sean (if these last 2 were saved in the Grizzlies and in West Elizabeth, respectively) would surely stick to Hosea's gang. The other ladies, Jack and the men that did not engage in robberies would most certainly follow too, at least for the time being, since they were on the gang for more of a familiar group instead of a criminal one (even though the ladies and Strauss engaged in crimes of their own sometimes).
I think Hosea's death is what hit Dutch the hardest as after san de ney Dutch is a completely changed man
If Hosea was in charge we wouldn't have a video game. Or... we would have what John has in the epilogue. Which is grinding ranch chores for 8 bucks a day.
One thing is sure for certain micah isnt gonna be a part of the gang if this was the case
If Dutch died and Hosea had to take over, he definitely head west and definitely stay low.
I don't see him abandoning anyone who comes with him and with Hosea he seems more of teacher than Dutch is.
During their time staying low he'll probably try to get Arthur, John, and Lenny to help make the bigger decisions and having them make some decisions.
Which will give Hosea more time to gather information in Blackwater, more then likely he'll get in touch with Trelawny and with him being conman they'll get along.
Hosea's goal like Dutch's is money but instead of causing trouble in a new place for the gang he may spend of most of his time trying to sneak back into Blackwater to get the stash.
As for difference in the game most big loud jobs like bank robbing will have a more quite approach or won't happen. I can see Hosea getting Arthur with Trelawny to be snake oil salesmen. To make quick cash. I see more night time burglary like with the stagecoach. Maybe even selling/creating fake bonds. These are some game elements I could see happen if Hosea was in charge.
As for story, major changes will happen to some characters and the ending.
For story If they head west they'll pass Strawberry and escape Big Valley, when things get quite I can see Hosea moving in closer he may have Arthur and the boys take over the Hanging Dog Ranch and from there Hosea will began his plan to get the Blackwater stash. Once they get the stash then it's the end the boys either live or die. Micah could betray them by ratting them out to the Pinkertons and/or steal the stash for himself and run. The game/story could continue with either Arthur or John hunting Micah down for the money. Arthur won't get TB if they head west because they won't be stopping in Valentine.
As for characters most will stay the same but some would have growth like Sean. Once he return he will also be getting the same lessons/treatment like Arthur, John, and Lenny.
Then for Micah he won't will last long. Arthur will blame him for Dutch's death and maybe Javier as well since he was with them on the ferry.
And knowing Micah he is very loud, prideful, and violent he may see Hosea as nothing more than an old man and try to take over. Which will be the end of him.
Next is Molly and she is literally only their for Dutch, without Dutch she may leave on her own or Hosea/Arthur/any of the girl characters could help her overcome that loss and move on.
If that happens I would like to see Molly open up more at camp and get along with the other girls or she could become like Sadie in chapter 3,
Next is Bill who is like a diet Micah loud, prideful, and violent but it can be controlled/contained and he has respect for Hosea, when he isn't drunk.
So him staying is 50/50 if he does stay I think Hosea may send him off with Lenny/Sean as backup both of them being the youngest and still learning the outlaw/conman way.
Next is Sadie who may have the worse outcome, if two things don't happen. 1 The gang doesn't go up north to lay low and 2 Micah is the one who spotted her home.
So if Hosea decides to head North instead of West and Micah hasn't been shot/run off then Sadie will be like her canon self.
Lastly is Kieran who more then likely will not be joining the gang because. He is only caught after the gang attacks the o'driscoll camp in the north
and if by some way he is caught, Hosea may kill him so the gang can continue to lay low or he could be pull a Dutch and slowly "persuade" him to join the gang.
As for character death I don't see it Happening with Hosea in charge. Hosea is experienced he knows when to hit and when to keep your head down.
If I'm honest, Hosea probably would've given up pretty early. Not like, the instant they get out of the mountains, but he would pretty quickly let the women and children go and once it was down to him and Arthur (and a few others of course) he would've told everybody to just seperate and hide. Then John would've had to help the law kill off Arthur, Micah, and Hosea.
Basically the same thing that ultimately happened to Dutch, but much earlier, and a few more people would've lived because Hosea can see the writing on the wall.
Blackwater itself isnt really that big for pinkertons to continue hunting the vanderlinde gang. Is the chaos they make after that. Killing bronte, both grays & braithwaithes, and cornwall. Hell even the reason pinkertons succesfully catch up to them is because of them robbing Cornwall's train. So i dont think RDR John have to hunt Arthur & Hosea
If we're having Dutch die at blackwater does that mean they wouldn't run into Sadie either?
let's say they do due to hidding in the mountains at first glance, then Valentine till the O'Driscolls get the eye of the storm on them, just in time to avoid Arthur getting TB from Downes as the gang moves back west towards Armadillo and Tumbleweed
@@splashnskillz37yeah even if arthur did get tb, pretty sure he would have lived longer cause new austin is dry and warm
@@Nikawlos Well if we gonna have things go well into HEA, might as well have him busy to collect the debts or he collets later when Thomas Downes already died
“What if Hosea was the leader of the van der Lin gang?”
Rdr1 would be half an hour long
Highly doubt the gang would have been together the same way. Hosea was ready to retire, but Dutch was obsessed with that one last big score that could easily set up their retirement. I don't think Hosea would have left outright, but I think he would have taken the lead for anyone that wanted out to get out and live a more honest life, possibly doing small scores if they come as a given rather than looking for opportunities for illegal activity. For example, Hosea and Shamus: Hosea took a job where he had all the details, could get in good with an individual that could potentially help them and had their blessing when they were family to the victim, and no possible fallout unless caught in the act.
I'm thinking he would have split the gang into two by trying to tone down the activity of the gang. The ones who wanted a more peaceful, normal life would go with Hosea. The ones still stuck in their outlaw ways would have carried on as the remnants of the Van Der Linde gang. Micah, Bill, Javier, possibility even Sean and Pearson. It seems to me Pearson wasn't the biggest fan of Hosea based on their interactions and he was originally saved from loan sharks by the gang, so he might feel indebted to the ones still wanting to put up a fight rather than Hosea and the women. John is even a possibility at this point of the story, he might have either stayed with the remnants or went back and forth between groups since even in the epilogue he was having a hard time not doing bad things. It has nothing to do with their feelings of Hosea, it's just they aren't ready to go quite yet. I just highly doubt he would have been planning big heists and all that. He might even discourage others from doing that after Dutch's death.
What was the Immediate aftermath of chapter 6 with the gang? Clearly the gang still existed to some part after Arthur's death and the following days. Abigail, John & Jack were still around. Uncle was there, same with Javier, Charles, a lot of the women, and others too. So far I've seen no one attempt to do this subject. At the very least, i see that the gang would have likely still tried to make it out together for the next few days if not a week or so. Especially considering Dutch likely wouldn't just leave everything all together right after the death of Arthur and the pinkertons.
Edit: Uncle, Pearson, and Mary-Beth ran right before the last train job.
Abigail, John, and Jack ran immediately after their reunion. They left behind Tilly and Sadie. Maybe Mary-Beth. Sadie was done without Arthur-the only fool she trusted.
Pearson, Swanson, Strauss, Trelawny, and Karen already ran. Charles was in Canada. Javier and Bill probably found Dutch, but Dutch had been reduced to a shell last we saw of him. Dutch abandoned Micah. Uncle's good at jumping ships when they stop floating. All he wanted was free food and good company.
So, Uncle, Mary-Beth, and Tilly. What did they have left to come back to? Bill, Javier, and Dutch aren't good company, and they can't cook. Their camp and belongings were a literal hot zone. Fire and swarming Pinkertons.
Chances are, Sadie escorted the two girls to safety-with Uncle, if he didn't disappear beforehand. Tilly and Mary-Beth kept in touch, so I assume they were together for a time.
One can only guess that Dutch didn't keep Javier or Bill long. Perhaps he told them to go. Perhaps he never said a thing at all.
I feel like Hosea should be the leader he avoids killing but if Dutch has a valid plan like when jack got took and we had to kill our way to Catherine and he showed his evil side because he agrees but if he doesn't agree he seems pussy unsure nervous nonviolent but if the calls up to him he always has a good plan
If they would add this alternate reality as a DLC that'd be 🔥🔥🔥. Would love to play it and see how it turns out.