eeh greatly disagree their. not a good man... but a man of principle still. there is a distinct difference in how he operated compared to his rivals. The principles disintegrated once
Yeh see i was fully behind the head Injury theory but your so right. That does just make him manipulative because they had no loyalty or love for him either. He just talked his way into things
Benjamin Byron Davis said in an interview "Dutch shot Micah because Micah is a RAT". Period. Dutch certainly wasn't perfect and was obviously mentally unbalanced. That imbalance was before Micah saved his life obviously. Micah then poured poison in Dutches ear from day one. Heidis death started the reaction of his downfall, but Bell was the catalyst
Then, after he took care of bell, why did he go and Manipulate the natives. Dutch was always a con artist, Narcissist and manipulator. Regardless if micah Was around.
The entire RDR community/Fanbase is very divided about Dutch's persona. Some people believe he was a good and dedicated leader whose mental condition started to decline slowly, leading him to complete insanity. Some other people (Me included) believe that Dutch has always been a manipulative silver-tongued snake, using all of his charisma and intelligence to use his fellow gang members for his own benefit. In the end, no one knows for sure the truth behind Dutch's situation. But either way, it's a very interesting topic for us to debate.
Indeed! I personally find it's down to the personality of the player to determine their own truths for themselves regarding Dutch. :) Dutch is extremely 3D as an individual. So I am totally with you on that belief, I've met people in real life in my past who have been similar to Dutch, I won't drone on about it because it's one hell of a story, however it doesn't include Cowboys, Indians and Pinkertons lol! I had some interesting debates myself with 'social' philosophers and some like myself with certain educational skills shall we say, in psychology/sociology. The results are very varied, and it gets more complicated when you consider Micah's interference and the events of the game, loss of Hosea, Lenny, Sean, Kieran too as some gang members were starting to take to him close to his fatal death of mutilation at the hands of Colm. These actors/voice actors who played these characters didn't just speak words through a script, they had to think and feel as these characters. But that's a topic for another time and I've still got plenty to say, I'll attempt to keep this rant relatively short but I hold no promises! :P Red Dead Redemption 2 is massively far from some ordinary game or story for that matter. It's one giant adventure combined with immersive cutscenes and gripping emotional plays by their real life counterparts, the cast deserve oscars in my opinion, it would be cool though if they started handing out Oscars to game actors. Should be a thing, unless it already is? Because the main characters smashed it, they all did really. Even the ones who had little involvement in certain important cutscenes and were more like background actors most of the time like Mary-Beth. I only hope the recent GTA 6 lives up to being just as awesome, because I gotta admit, I've played maaaaany a R* game but none of them gripped me as hard as Red Dead Redemption 2's story and tale, not one single Grand Theft Auto game has ever hit me like a freight train like Red Dead Redemption 2 did. I mean I enjoyed them for gameplay quality at the time, but the stories were very predictable, the first time Arthur's TB started kicking off on the way to Sadie in Saint Denis to plan out how to rescue John, I was like "Wtf is this the guy with the blow dart again from Guarma!?" then cued the coughing and after all I'd been through as Arthur, I immediately thought "Oh, shit, oh no." after realising joking aside that he had caught something terrible somehow, didn't dawn on me until 30 minutes later after diagnosis that he contracted it for beating a man to death (Thomas Downes) and of course, accidents being accidents, I mean, if you're about to cough you can't help it, especially with a progressive disease like TB, it's a cruel fate. You can only mitigate it, but he was pinned against a fence by Arthur so couldn't exactly cover up his face. However, Arthur's arrogance proved to be his undoing and thus set the motions of Redemption forth towards the latter stages of the game. Even with Thomas being a do-gooder as Arthur has described anyway. But that's an entirely different matter, I believe Arthur's fate with his terminal illness for that time was hastened by Micah towards the end, the stress of outlaw life and his perspective flipping over, Guarma, his mentor who he loves to bits turning against him and those who are ACTUALLY loyal and not blindly loyal like Bill, Javier and so forth, hardly count Micah as loyal as he clearly was playing all sides to his advantage. But ultimately Arthur's fate was primarily contributed by Dutch and Strauss. If you evade going to beat on Thomas. Dutch starts nagging at you and so does Strauss to go do it. Of course this is miles before Arthur realised how blindly loyal he had been too, time is irrelevant people. Even when you've known someone so long, as I always say, if your gut tells you not to do something, don't do it, Arthur realised this too little too late. Hence why Strauss along with many other reasons was kicked out of camp by Arthur. Anyway, I'll leave it there for now. I hope this provides some insight to people anyway I've definitely broke my promise of ranting that's for sure aha! When I am finished streaming Beaver Hollow for a family friend of mine, (as we have been following the entire story together, my third time playing it, her first time seeing it and she loves Arthur so god help her big time when she sees the ultimatum!) we're gonna either hit up the dishonorable version of the story or go straight to Red Dead Redemption continuing with John Marston. Sorry for the paragraphs anyway, just thought I'd share my own revelations. :) Peace and love all!
What happened to Dutch is that tunnel visioned on that end goal, over optimistic, chased it till the end, and the when the gang broke out, he said fuck it, and went full outlaw mode
I JUST finished playing rEd Dead Redemption 2 for the very first time 2 days ago! I figured it was an easy answer; Dutch was always a silver tongued jack ass. However, once the immersion kicks in, I started to see it a little more from Arthur's perspective. Dutch, to Arthur, was something like a type of father. Dutch, to Arthur, was always a leader. He taught Arthur most of what he knows about living the life he desired in his youth when all hope may have been lost. As I type that, I realize how cult-y that sounds. However, even months before the downfall of the gang began, Charles found logic and reason in trusting Dutch. And Arthur describes a time where Dutch even reprimanded him for robbing people who were too poor. Weather this is because it was morally correct, or because it was a bad score that provides nothing, it shows that Dutch is capable of recognizing that. I think, with that last one said, Micahs arrival is also pinpointed with Leopard Strauss joining the camp. Even beyond the first mission Arthur takes from Strauss, he is against it, because taking from unfortunate folks is not what Dutch taught him. In fact, no matter how low your honor is, Arthur believes in kicking out Leopald Strauss out of the gang is whats right, because he scams people who are worse off than even they are. I don't think Dutch Van'der Lin was ever a good person. After all, he is an outlaw, theif, and murderer. There is no way around that from the start. It is the life that many agree they found joy in in their youths. However, when it stopped being easy to live that life, to avoid local law enforcement and simply run away, to quote Abigail, and Dutch himself; "Im getting to old for that life." However, i think wth Micahs set in stone survivalist mindset, "Im a survivor, Morgan!" As well as his young andreckless thinking, see the Strawberry Massacre when Micah is broken out if jail, per Dutchs request... Well, the story gives off a midlife crisis vibe of sorts. Dutch is no longer young, and with Hosea gone, there is no one to question or slow him down when he wishes to act impulsively. He finds a type of young fun in being an outlaw, and at some point was capable of being a smart outlaw, who chooses his hits carefully. TLDR; i think Dutch has reached a midlife crisis of sorts after he was no longer young and able to run away from local law, and thus easily took to Micahs reckless and survivalist ideals. While never having been a good person, he did have a decline of moral and thought, and was easily drawn in to new ideals after Micah came in, especially after the death of his partner and guide, Hosea Matthews. I ranted there im so sorry-
Its also worth noting that you can't get a fast travel map for Arthur, a function that makes the game infinity easier(!), *UNTIL YOU UPGRADE DUTCH'S TENT FIRST*
True! Why should Dutch's tent be priority? Arthur's we get it because Arthur is the one donating most money and buying upgrades, but the fact that it's Dutch first and only at the 3rd do we upgrade other gang members tents is telling.
huh? First of all, that just doesn’t matter and Rockstar had to pick one of them. Second of all, Dutch is the leader of the gang. Plus, people would probably twist it to call Arthur ‘selfish’ if he had of upgraded his tent first.
@@henry7486 Arthur does the upgrades himself, and it gives him a new functionality so I think the fact that the first update is making more comfortable the already most comfortable tent in camp could potentially mean the man who spends all game giving speeches on how “he’d more than gladly die instead of the others” and calls out the greedy civilised west is perhaps himself selfish and greedy Then compare it to Hosea who sleeps on the hard cold floor next to other gang members
For me the cracks started showing at the very start of the game when Hosea mentions the age they found Arthur. He was a child, and children are easy to manipulate especially orphans. When Milton said "seduced by that maniacs silver tongue and matures into a degenerate killer" it made me think of it from a whole different perspective. Dutch saw a young boy who he could manipulate into his perfect "yes man". Ever since that point every time he talked with Arthur I didn't see a loving father figure anymore and instead saw a very smart killer using nice words to confuse a man he "saved" so he would do his dirty work for him. Also one thing I found to be very suspicious was his reluctance to go and save Sean, I get it he was wanted but so was Arthur since he was seen as his "most trusted associate". To me that contradicted his speech in the beginning about "throwing myself on the ground in their stead". One other minor detail is his outfit of all things, him being dressed in such a recognizable way made it very clear to me he found his self image more important than the safety of the gang.
Also there’s the fact that him dressing up like some perfumed fop doesn’t gel well with his supposed ideology of a rough and tumble anarchist living free in the wild.
Criminals taking in young people and having young members is generally still normal nowadays in the world of crime so i dont think a teenage criminal like dutch taking in another teen member is that morally wrong for a regular criminal
The death of Hosea aside, I think what further drove Dutch over the edge was seeing Arthur think for himself. A personal bloodhound that he more or less raised and indoctrinated. It makes me wonder how Arthur would have turned out if he didn’t have people like Charles to open his eyes. Showing him you can be a loyal friend without compromising your morals.
"It makes me wonder how Arthur would have turned out if he didn't have people like Charles opening his eyes." Two words: Micah Bell. Micah is literally Arthur's dark reflection, representing what Arthur could have become if he lacked a moral compass or scrupules.
@@jorgebersabe293 I think Micah still makes bad karma Arthur look like Childs play. What I mostly mean is that Arthur was blindly loyal to Dutch and the gang. He wasn’t outright evil in the beginning, but some of his choices are still questionable. I think it was people like Charles who taught him that you can be a good friend without being a yes man or someone’s pawn. Putting aside his sickness which was also a reality check
My personal read on this is Dutch did on some level care about his crew and liked playing the loving leader when things were good and comfortable. However, he always cared more about himself (though he’d never admit it) and was never willing to actually stick out his neck when things got hard. So the loyalty and love he showed wasn’t ALL a lie, more of…a severe exaggeration.
I feel like that makes sense. I think that in the starting stages of the gang, his love and loyalty for the gang was more genuine but that could be optimistic thinking
I have an headcanon that Heidi was an "inside lady" that Dutch thought he had befriended or seduced (so he could access a vault onboard the steamboat), but of course she had betrayed the gang by quietly informing the boat owners (who then called the Pinkertons and cops). Her gloating at Dutch was why she got shot in the head.
Yes, but killing her shouldn't have been his first instinct. What he normally would have done was he would have tried to talk it out, then killed her. But he had no hesitation. Think about when he was talking with the Braithwaites. He didn't go there guns blazing. He tried to negotiate them handing jack over, then shot them. He had full intention of killing the Braithwaites, but he tried to talk with them first. That's why the lady was so much different.
but he EASILY could’ve talked and down play it then disarmed her and incapacitated her in an instant, but instead he just said oh yeah how abt this and snapped her neck
@@calebrodarte7888 I disagree, she got mad at him because he didn't have anymore gold to offer so unless he had more gold, he couldn't have calmed her down.
Dutch reminds me off Loki a silver tongued word smith Dutch himself probably believes everything he tells the gang about himself. The only one not to buy it is Uncle who Dutch does sees as a threat and made sure to let him know he does. Dutch true personality in my opinion is the broken man we see in Rdr1 there is no act anymore it's dutch finally living in his truth and accepting that broke him.
In Dutch’s case, Character growth isnt about becoming the man youre meant to be, it’s about realizing what kind of man you are all along and accepting your truest nature.
Although Dutch is bad, he is my most favorite antagonist out of all games, shows, movies antagonists. Micah though is dumb and he should have been colm's right hand so he has no chance of being in the gang, but Kieran still is part of the gang.
😂😂 Dutch slipped big time at the end of the fishing trip with Hosea and Arthur. "I am going , I mean we are going to be fine" 😮🎉🎉 "I have a plan" was the easiest to see..a plan for him to use everyone for his benefit.
While I admire nearly all of your videos and even this one, I firmly reject that Dutch isn't a villain. Idk how you can say he's not. He led his people to Hell with great deception and narcissism. I'd argue Dutch is the series main antagonist.
Landon Ricketts was deputized for the sting in Blackwater for Dutch’s gang. If you listen to Dutch and Molly argue, basically - Dutch can’t get it up, lol. Hosea and Lenny buy it in the same mission, Arthur ends up going to Guarma with all the “villainous” characters.
Things I wish rockstar would animate and make canon cutscenes or videos for: The fairy job Sadie and Charles after RD2 Jack after RD1 How Dutch created his gang John and Arthur’s earlier gang years Bill in the army Uncle dealing with his life crippling lumbago
Honestly if dutch really meant it when he said he would've been killed in Jenny and daveys stead then he would've gone with Milton when he offered everyone else freedom in exchange for dutch
I think that Dutch's primal trait is selfishness. Yes, he cared about the gang members but he cared about himself more. It's his way or the highway. And as the game progressed and the gang kept getting into more and more trouble caused mostly by Dutch's failed schemes, Dutch's personality began to unravel. The more positive parts of his personality began to disappear and with Hosea's death, there was no one to hold his ego in check.
Many of us are kinda like Dutch. We’re angry at “civilization” and society because we feel smothered by it. This makes me angry, inducing a special kind of wrath. A vengeful one. The difference is, I respect the consequences. “Making compromises we all have to.” But if this were 1899….idk if I would make those compromises. Maybe I’d be the pathetic hopeless fucking psychopath about to fall to his death on a snowy-ass mountain.
Gonna hard disagree that Dutch is not an antagonist. He is an antagonist is almost every sense of the word. An antagonist is not a clear-cut enemy, they are just an oppositional forces to the protagonist. Arthur stands in strong opposition to Dutch in both versions of the story. Dutch is likened after a modern celebrity preacher. I don't how this symbolism is lost on so many players. The "books" he reads are a reference to the Bible. Not only are the books he reads full of extremist language, but more importantly; they are fantasies. This is an underhanded critique of the Christian faith from the developers. He talks about this new world where they can start anew like it's the biblical promised land. He talks about how America world) has all gone to hell. He talks about living in civilization like it's a sin. Dutch is an illustration of a charismatic cult leader. Teaching somewhat agreeable humanistic values, mixed in with violent and extremist rhetoric. He demands donations, keeping a personal stash for himself, splurging on himself, pursuing personal vendettas while exhibiting erratic behavior. Micah was symbolic of the devil. That's why the kept talking about "curse". That evil, that sin he committed had been following Dutch since Blackwater. This same theme was used in RDR1 with John and the Strange Man.
i think both main theories are true i think he sort of believed his own lies in some ways and at first wanted to take everyone with him there but it eventually became a goal to reach by any means necessary or maybe it was always that and he just got more desperate
Hey man I love rdr2 and I can’t make videos like this because I’m not very good so please don’t stop these videos please And I’m not hating on gta at all but all I see at the moment is gta vi and I don’t like gta because of something about my pass
i'M LIKELY OLDER THAN MOST PLAYERS. i WAS AROUND WHEN VIDOE GAMES WERE CALLED 'pINBALL' AND aSTERIODS WAS THE tHING! LOL i'VE BEEN AROUND AND MET A LOT OF PEOPLE DUE TO MOVING EVERY YEAR AS A KID AND TEEN, NEW SCHOOLS, NEW JOBS, MEET LOTS OF PEOPLE. i PLAYED rdr1 AND KNEW dUTCH BUT WAS WILLING TO GIVE HIM SOME SLACK FOR rdr2-UNTIL HIS VERY FIRST SPEECH ABOUT THROWING SELF INTO THE GROUND. [sorry bout the caps, kinda blind two-fingred typist]] Anyway, never trust someone who sings flowers and Sunshine when you meet them or obviously does it enough to make pretty speeches full of nothing.
Honestly i couldnt stand bronte. Hes exactly the same as dutch hes just more arrogant because he has more money. Hes just the same though. Get them as poor children, give them something pretty and tell them what they want to hear while you mold them into bullet shields for yourself. That's bronte and that's dutch as well
What always bugged me about the camp is that nobody could come up with buying or stealing a bathtub, you have to pay 25 cents everytime Arthur needs a bath. BUT But But. Dutch has wooden flooring, a table and a phonograph with classical music wax cylinders in his fully enclosed tent. Being clean can fall in second place while little Dutch needs his feet to be kept warm and his music?
One weird thing. If Dutch thought John/Abigail were ratting, why would Abigail have the key to Dutch's money chest if you choose the ending where you go back for the money? Idk why but that just now occurred to me after thinking she may have/probably ratted in order to have a life for her/John/Jack
I always saw Dutch as a smooth talking conman and highway robber who used the whole 'modern day Robin Hood' schtick as a cover to justify his actions and get people to follow him. Over time, he actually started to believe the things he was saying and became delusional. But once things started to fall apart and he lost control of the situation, his charming facade dropped, reveling what he really was. Underneath it all, he's nothing more than a narcissistic sociopath who only cares about himself and will ruin the lives of anyone if it means he comes out on top.
The gang lasted 20 years, what we see in the game is only the last year or so when everything started to fall apart, and you can see from old newspaper clippings at least early on they did seem tonhave that code Arthur spoke of, but the pressure of being hunted made them all more desperate. I f you consider the immense pressure Dutch was under during the latter half of the game, the responsibilties of keeping 20 people fed and safe when they were being hunted like animals, a lot of people would crack like Durch did I have no doubt he was self serving and the gang and its code were a way to feed his own ego, if being outlaws who were "better" than the other gangs because they had "a code" but those princioles held for 20 odd years and only fell apart under immense pressure at the end. Doesn't make the way he betrayed the people who were loyal to him for the sake of a rat he knew for 6 months but looking at the situation he was in makes it easier to understand why he lost his shit.
@@Erika_Kohl nah man i disagree with that. man put himself in dire risk of being stabbed by a completely unstable and hysteric woman simply to help calm her down and get her shelter. he would would have. he would have./
@@kaydens6964can you please shut up? Every bloody video remotely related to this topic, and there you are spouting shitforbrains takes on morality and character analysis.
varies between people. In a sense he was always evil cause he chose robbing and killing. He had a sense of honor that made him stand out compared to people like O Driscol and others, that balanced out his behavior... Clearly also an egoist and proud but one that still had a sense of morality unusual for his ilk. The morality fell to peices under increasing stress and the lost of the people who kept him anchored and sane, the biggest break being the loss of Hosea. He wasn't a 'proper' narccisit though. He does too many things that go against it, and there is no way that Dutch could ahve had such a loyal and put together gang last for so long if he was. True you got asshole like we have to day ruling nations but there is a level of difference here cause dutch's gang was always small and personable, a family. Closer a man is to ya ever day the more things can be.... off.
Dude, it's "needle" -- "needling", it's pronounced the same way. I've been getting into this conversation way way too much recently, but whatever; TH-cam pushes RDR2 content on me like illicit substances. All of this is why I don't think Dutch is interesting, or "complicated". Characters in Rockstar games rarely are and I'm kind of tired of people not recognizing it or calling it out. The thing about Micah is it's just another way for the Housers to obfuscate about Dutch's character, and weave in a scapegoat that the audience can hate until the finale, in case they might get bored with fifty hours of the ostensibly more nuanced character in Dutch. It's all pretty lame. The fan theories are even worse. How about this: maybe Micah gave him lead poisoning. Like honestly who cares? What does it say about Dutch's character if a head injury made him into a completely different person. It's a rhetorical question because the answer is obviously "nothing." That's completely outside Dutch's control, so it's obviously not good character writing if that answers any of the questions gamers have about his behavior. Yet for no discernible reason they love this stuff
You clearly don't pay much attention. The head injury in itself is a theory and that's not what caused anything. He was always a manipulative narcissist, he just stopped caring to hide it after Hosea died, he no longer had the voice of reason grounding him. And if you don't like RDR2 content, don't watch it. Hitting the dislike button and telling TH-cam to stop recommending it is pretty easy. Crazy how you can claim this game having bad writing is a fact because of your own pre-conceptions about the characters and hating Rockstar games.
The people say it's because of head trauma are only half right. It was mental trauma that warped him even worse than he was before. Ironically The Pinkertons managed to break Dutch and his gang up by making him worse. I feel he did genuinely care about Arthur and definitely Hosea. I think he did start to perceive Arthur as being a doubter and taking it personally as the Pinkertons turned up the pressure and having Micah dripping poison in his ear constantly. A lot of people would snap.
Dutch is so well written that he actually fooled the RDR2 fanbase into thinking he was actually a good man!
Dutch did nothing wrong.
He’s a two bit gangster who needs prison time. A long time in the pen.
he fooled arthur all of his life... not Micah ;)
eeh greatly disagree their. not a good man... but a man of principle still. there is a distinct difference in how he operated compared to his rivals.
The principles disintegrated once
If you say so. All of this shit seemed pretty obvious to me
Man was able to manipulate thousands of native americans he is a master at it
Arthur was probably thinking to himself: "damn, he's manipulated these kids the same way he has me for 20 years"
@@anthonyfernandez82 Yeah prob
Yeh see i was fully behind the head Injury theory but your so right. That does just make him manipulative because they had no loyalty or love for him either. He just talked his way into things
He did that in rdr1. Even got a bunch of regular criminals too
the native americans didn't care cause their own people were getting treated like crap so they said f*** it let's join dutch
don't blame them tbh
Benjamin Byron Davis said in an interview "Dutch shot Micah because Micah is a RAT". Period. Dutch certainly wasn't perfect and was obviously mentally unbalanced. That imbalance was before Micah saved his life obviously. Micah then poured poison in Dutches ear from day one. Heidis death started the reaction of his downfall, but Bell was the catalyst
It's a bit of a stretch to take that one line and make it mean that Dutch wasn't always like this.
John literally says in RDR1 that Dutch has always been like this.
With all due respect to the brilliant performance of Benjamin Byron Davis, just because he plays the character, doesn't mean he knows the character.
Dutch is lying in his first sentences of the game...
Then, after he took care of bell, why did he go and Manipulate the natives. Dutch was always a con artist, Narcissist and manipulator. Regardless if micah Was around.
The entire RDR community/Fanbase is very divided about Dutch's persona.
Some people believe he was a good and dedicated leader whose mental condition started to decline slowly, leading him to complete insanity. Some other people (Me included) believe that Dutch has always been a manipulative silver-tongued snake, using all of his charisma and intelligence to use his fellow gang members for his own benefit.
In the end, no one knows for sure the truth behind Dutch's situation. But either way, it's a very interesting topic for us to debate.
Indeed! I personally find it's down to the personality of the player to determine their own truths for themselves regarding Dutch. :) Dutch is extremely 3D as an individual. So I am totally with you on that belief, I've met people in real life in my past who have been similar to Dutch, I won't drone on about it because it's one hell of a story, however it doesn't include Cowboys, Indians and Pinkertons lol! I had some interesting debates myself with 'social' philosophers and some like myself with certain educational skills shall we say, in psychology/sociology. The results are very varied, and it gets more complicated when you consider Micah's interference and the events of the game, loss of Hosea, Lenny, Sean, Kieran too as some gang members were starting to take to him close to his fatal death of mutilation at the hands of Colm. These actors/voice actors who played these characters didn't just speak words through a script, they had to think and feel as these characters. But that's a topic for another time and I've still got plenty to say, I'll attempt to keep this rant relatively short but I hold no promises! :P
Red Dead Redemption 2 is massively far from some ordinary game or story for that matter. It's one giant adventure combined with immersive cutscenes and gripping emotional plays by their real life counterparts, the cast deserve oscars in my opinion, it would be cool though if they started handing out Oscars to game actors. Should be a thing, unless it already is? Because the main characters smashed it, they all did really. Even the ones who had little involvement in certain important cutscenes and were more like background actors most of the time like Mary-Beth. I only hope the recent GTA 6 lives up to being just as awesome, because I gotta admit, I've played maaaaany a R* game but none of them gripped me as hard as Red Dead Redemption 2's story and tale, not one single Grand Theft Auto game has ever hit me like a freight train like Red Dead Redemption 2 did. I mean I enjoyed them for gameplay quality at the time, but the stories were very predictable, the first time Arthur's TB started kicking off on the way to Sadie in Saint Denis to plan out how to rescue John, I was like "Wtf is this the guy with the blow dart again from Guarma!?" then cued the coughing and after all I'd been through as Arthur, I immediately thought "Oh, shit, oh no." after realising joking aside that he had caught something terrible somehow, didn't dawn on me until 30 minutes later after diagnosis that he contracted it for beating a man to death (Thomas Downes) and of course, accidents being accidents, I mean, if you're about to cough you can't help it, especially with a progressive disease like TB, it's a cruel fate. You can only mitigate it, but he was pinned against a fence by Arthur so couldn't exactly cover up his face. However, Arthur's arrogance proved to be his undoing and thus set the motions of Redemption forth towards the latter stages of the game.
Even with Thomas being a do-gooder as Arthur has described anyway. But that's an entirely different matter, I believe Arthur's fate with his terminal illness for that time was hastened by Micah towards the end, the stress of outlaw life and his perspective flipping over, Guarma, his mentor who he loves to bits turning against him and those who are ACTUALLY loyal and not blindly loyal like Bill, Javier and so forth, hardly count Micah as loyal as he clearly was playing all sides to his advantage. But ultimately Arthur's fate was primarily contributed by Dutch and Strauss. If you evade going to beat on Thomas. Dutch starts nagging at you and so does Strauss to go do it. Of course this is miles before Arthur realised how blindly loyal he had been too, time is irrelevant people. Even when you've known someone so long, as I always say, if your gut tells you not to do something, don't do it, Arthur realised this too little too late. Hence why Strauss along with many other reasons was kicked out of camp by Arthur.
Anyway, I'll leave it there for now. I hope this provides some insight to people anyway I've definitely broke my promise of ranting that's for sure aha!
When I am finished streaming Beaver Hollow for a family friend of mine, (as we have been following the entire story together, my third time playing it, her first time seeing it and she loves Arthur so god help her big time when she sees the ultimatum!) we're gonna either hit up the dishonorable version of the story or go straight to Red Dead Redemption continuing with John Marston.
Sorry for the paragraphs anyway, just thought I'd share my own revelations. :)
Peace and love all!
What happened to Dutch is that tunnel visioned on that end goal, over optimistic, chased it till the end, and the when the gang broke out, he said fuck it, and went full outlaw mode
@@balancebreaker1561 He was probably hiding his truly intentions the whole time.
I JUST finished playing rEd Dead Redemption 2 for the very first time 2 days ago! I figured it was an easy answer; Dutch was always a silver tongued jack ass. However, once the immersion kicks in, I started to see it a little more from Arthur's perspective. Dutch, to Arthur, was something like a type of father. Dutch, to Arthur, was always a leader. He taught Arthur most of what he knows about living the life he desired in his youth when all hope may have been lost.
As I type that, I realize how cult-y that sounds.
However, even months before the downfall of the gang began, Charles found logic and reason in trusting Dutch.
And Arthur describes a time where Dutch even reprimanded him for robbing people who were too poor. Weather this is because it was morally correct, or because it was a bad score that provides nothing, it shows that Dutch is capable of recognizing that.
I think, with that last one said, Micahs arrival is also pinpointed with Leopard Strauss joining the camp. Even beyond the first mission Arthur takes from Strauss, he is against it, because taking from unfortunate folks is not what Dutch taught him. In fact, no matter how low your honor is, Arthur believes in kicking out Leopald Strauss out of the gang is whats right, because he scams people who are worse off than even they are.
I don't think Dutch Van'der Lin was ever a good person. After all, he is an outlaw, theif, and murderer. There is no way around that from the start. It is the life that many agree they found joy in in their youths. However, when it stopped being easy to live that life, to avoid local law enforcement and simply run away, to quote Abigail, and Dutch himself; "Im getting to old for that life."
However, i think wth Micahs set in stone survivalist mindset, "Im a survivor, Morgan!"
As well as his young andreckless thinking, see the Strawberry Massacre when Micah is broken out if jail, per Dutchs request...
Well, the story gives off a midlife crisis vibe of sorts. Dutch is no longer young, and with Hosea gone, there is no one to question or slow him down when he wishes to act impulsively. He finds a type of young fun in being an outlaw, and at some point was capable of being a smart outlaw, who chooses his hits carefully.
TLDR; i think Dutch has reached a midlife crisis of sorts after he was no longer young and able to run away from local law, and thus easily took to Micahs reckless and survivalist ideals. While never having been a good person, he did have a decline of moral and thought, and was easily drawn in to new ideals after Micah came in, especially after the death of his partner and guide, Hosea Matthews.
I ranted there im so sorry-
@@highonmossyeah, when your main influences are just Micah and a crazy writer things are bound to go a little sideways
Its also worth noting that you can't get a fast travel map for Arthur, a function that makes the game infinity easier(!), *UNTIL YOU UPGRADE DUTCH'S TENT FIRST*
True! Why should Dutch's tent be priority? Arthur's we get it because Arthur is the one donating most money and buying upgrades, but the fact that it's Dutch first and only at the 3rd do we upgrade other gang members tents is telling.
Because Dutch is the leader of the gang... who the gang is named after...
Ugh why didn't I know this... I never upgraded that bastard's tent!!!!!
huh? First of all, that just doesn’t matter and Rockstar had to pick one of them. Second of all, Dutch is the leader of the gang. Plus, people would probably twist it to call Arthur ‘selfish’ if he had of upgraded his tent first.
@@henry7486 Arthur does the upgrades himself, and it gives him a new functionality so I think the fact that the first update is making more comfortable the already most comfortable tent in camp could potentially mean the man who spends all game giving speeches on how “he’d more than gladly die instead of the others” and calls out the greedy civilised west is perhaps himself selfish and greedy
Then compare it to Hosea who sleeps on the hard cold floor next to other gang members
For me the cracks started showing at the very start of the game when Hosea mentions the age they found Arthur. He was a child, and children are easy to manipulate especially orphans. When Milton said "seduced by that maniacs silver tongue and matures into a degenerate killer" it made me think of it from a whole different perspective. Dutch saw a young boy who he could manipulate into his perfect "yes man". Ever since that point every time he talked with Arthur I didn't see a loving father figure anymore and instead saw a very smart killer using nice words to confuse a man he "saved" so he would do his dirty work for him.
Also one thing I found to be very suspicious was his reluctance to go and save Sean, I get it he was wanted but so was Arthur since he was seen as his "most trusted associate". To me that contradicted his speech in the beginning about "throwing myself on the ground in their stead".
One other minor detail is his outfit of all things, him being dressed in such a recognizable way made it very clear to me he found his self image more important than the safety of the gang.
Also there’s the fact that him dressing up like some perfumed fop doesn’t gel well with his supposed ideology of a rough and tumble anarchist living free in the wild.
@@stingerjohnny9951It does give truth to Uncle's words: "He wants to be an American king with his Knights."
Criminals taking in young people and having young members is generally still normal nowadays in the world of crime so i dont think a teenage criminal like dutch taking in another teen member is that morally wrong for a regular criminal
@hrodebrt Exactly. Not many look at it like that. Milton is the good guy doing his job. We are the villains
The death of Hosea aside, I think what further drove Dutch over the edge was seeing Arthur think for himself. A personal bloodhound that he more or less raised and indoctrinated. It makes me wonder how Arthur would have turned out if he didn’t have people like Charles to open his eyes. Showing him you can be a loyal friend without compromising your morals.
"It makes me wonder how Arthur would have turned out if he didn't have people like Charles opening his eyes."
Two words: Micah Bell. Micah is literally Arthur's dark reflection, representing what Arthur could have become if he lacked a moral compass or scrupules.
@@jorgebersabe293 I think Micah still makes bad karma Arthur look like Childs play. What I mostly mean is that Arthur was blindly loyal to Dutch and the gang. He wasn’t outright evil in the beginning, but some of his choices are still questionable. I think it was people like Charles who taught him that you can be a good friend without being a yes man or someone’s pawn. Putting aside his sickness which was also a reality check
My personal read on this is Dutch did on some level care about his crew and liked playing the loving leader when things were good and comfortable. However, he always cared more about himself (though he’d never admit it) and was never willing to actually stick out his neck when things got hard.
So the loyalty and love he showed wasn’t ALL a lie, more of…a severe exaggeration.
I feel like that makes sense. I think that in the starting stages of the gang, his love and loyalty for the gang was more genuine but that could be optimistic thinking
Dutch did stick out his neck out for Javier in Guarma tho
I have an headcanon that Heidi was an "inside lady" that Dutch thought he had befriended or seduced (so he could access a vault onboard the steamboat), but of course she had betrayed the gang by quietly informing the boat owners (who then called the Pinkertons and cops). Her gloating at Dutch was why she got shot in the head.
I still don't see killing that old lady as evil, she drew a knife
Yes, but killing her shouldn't have been his first instinct. What he normally would have done was he would have tried to talk it out, then killed her. But he had no hesitation. Think about when he was talking with the Braithwaites. He didn't go there guns blazing. He tried to negotiate them handing jack over, then shot them. He had full intention of killing the Braithwaites, but he tried to talk with them first. That's why the lady was so much different.
but he EASILY could’ve talked and down play it then disarmed her and incapacitated her in an instant, but instead he just said oh yeah how abt this and snapped her neck
I always found how he killed to be more concerning than him actually killing her
@@theoutsiderjess1869 honestly, what other way was there to kill her?
@@calebrodarte7888 I disagree, she got mad at him because he didn't have anymore gold to offer so unless he had more gold, he couldn't have calmed her down.
Dutch reminds me off Loki a silver tongued word smith Dutch himself probably believes everything he tells the gang about himself. The only one not to buy it is Uncle who Dutch does sees as a threat and made sure to let him know he does. Dutch true personality in my opinion is the broken man we see in Rdr1 there is no act anymore it's dutch finally living in his truth and accepting that broke him.
In Dutch’s case, Character growth isnt about becoming the man youre meant to be, it’s about realizing what kind of man you are all along and accepting your truest nature.
He's a narcissist, and because of this emotion he made mistakes that resulted in the gangs demise in short
Dutch is really tricky to understand like you can see he is secretly with micah
yeah but he killed Micah so...
@@ViktoriaGyenesever heard of a little thing called “too little, too late”. Dutch personified this with his killing of Micah 😂
Although Dutch is bad, he is my most favorite antagonist out of all games, shows, movies antagonists. Micah though is dumb and he should have been colm's right hand so he has no chance of being in the gang, but Kieran still is part of the gang.
😂😂 Dutch slipped big time at the end of the fishing trip with Hosea and Arthur. "I am going , I mean we are going to be fine" 😮🎉🎉 "I have a plan" was the easiest to see..a plan for him to use everyone for his benefit.
While I admire nearly all of your videos and even this one, I firmly reject that Dutch isn't a villain. Idk how you can say he's not. He led his people to Hell with great deception and narcissism. I'd argue Dutch is the series main antagonist.
Landon Ricketts was deputized for the sting in Blackwater for Dutch’s gang. If you listen to Dutch and Molly argue, basically - Dutch can’t get it up, lol. Hosea and Lenny buy it in the same mission, Arthur ends up going to Guarma with all the “villainous” characters.
How many times'd you run back to edit this?
@@ClaytonTheCracker Once, for typos. Bitch. I mean, the game’s been out for 5yrs, this information is tattooed on my brain.
@@ClaytonTheCracker I know right. Wtf is he saying?
@@iamjacksennui it sort of makes sense when you take every sentence as it's own idea. Tho idk if Landon was ever deputized
He’s just human. It’s his nature to survive.
I can't fight my own nature
He's only human after all, don't put the blame on him
Don't know which comment above i like more
W pfp amigo@@AshleysBrother
Dutch pushes gang's luck too far.. thats it !!!
Things I wish rockstar would animate and make canon cutscenes or videos for:
The fairy job
Sadie and Charles after RD2
Jack after RD1
How Dutch created his gang
John and Arthur’s earlier gang years
Bill in the army
Uncle dealing with his life crippling lumbago
Honestly if dutch really meant it when he said he would've been killed in Jenny and daveys stead then he would've gone with Milton when he offered everyone else freedom in exchange for dutch
He tries to but the gang stops him
I think that Dutch's primal trait is selfishness. Yes, he cared about the gang members but he cared about himself more. It's his way or the highway. And as the game progressed and the gang kept getting into more and more trouble caused mostly by Dutch's failed schemes, Dutch's personality began to unravel. The more positive parts of his personality began to disappear and with Hosea's death, there was no one to hold his ego in check.
_"And nobody knows who you are, not even your goddamn father."_
That is one of the funniest and coldest lines in the game lol.
This is odd because I know a guy with the exactly opposite opinion on Dutch.
Many of us are kinda like Dutch. We’re angry at “civilization” and society because we feel smothered by it. This makes me angry, inducing a special kind of wrath. A vengeful one. The difference is, I respect the consequences. “Making compromises we all have to.” But if this were 1899….idk if I would make those compromises. Maybe I’d be the pathetic hopeless fucking psychopath about to fall to his death on a snowy-ass mountain.
Gonna hard disagree that Dutch is not an antagonist. He is an antagonist is almost every sense of the word. An antagonist is not a clear-cut enemy, they are just an oppositional forces to the protagonist. Arthur stands in strong opposition to Dutch in both versions of the story.
Dutch is likened after a modern celebrity preacher. I don't how this symbolism is lost on so many players. The "books" he reads are a reference to the Bible. Not only are the books he reads full of extremist language, but more importantly; they are fantasies. This is an underhanded critique of the Christian faith from the developers. He talks about this new world where they can start anew like it's the biblical promised land. He talks about how America world) has all gone to hell. He talks about living in civilization like it's a sin. Dutch is an illustration of a charismatic cult leader. Teaching somewhat agreeable humanistic values, mixed in with violent and extremist rhetoric. He demands donations, keeping a personal stash for himself, splurging on himself, pursuing personal vendettas while exhibiting erratic behavior. Micah was symbolic of the devil. That's why the kept talking about "curse". That evil, that sin he committed had been following Dutch since Blackwater. This same theme was used in RDR1 with John and the Strange Man.
Dutch is lying in his first sentences of the game... the gang would also go down without micah...
Another exquisite analysis. Would love to run sometime with you on RDO if you play - I'm new, but I'm certain we'd have some decent conversation.
6:10 we didn't know them but they lost 3 close people right before the game started too
i think both main theories are true i think he sort of believed his own lies in some ways and at first wanted to take everyone with him there but it eventually became a goal to reach by any means necessary or maybe it was always that and he just got more desperate
Hey man I love rdr2 and I can’t make videos like this because I’m not very good so please don’t stop these videos please
And I’m not hating on gta at all but all I see at the moment is gta vi and I don’t like gta because of something about my pass
Lore of Dutch - The Ultimate Master Of Manipulation momentum 100
Yeah true the only reason the pinkertons knew about the bank heist is because of dutch killing angelo bronte
dutch was playing chess not checkers
i'M LIKELY OLDER THAN MOST PLAYERS. i WAS AROUND WHEN VIDOE GAMES WERE CALLED 'pINBALL' AND aSTERIODS WAS THE tHING! LOL i'VE BEEN AROUND AND MET A LOT OF PEOPLE DUE TO MOVING EVERY YEAR AS A KID AND TEEN, NEW SCHOOLS, NEW JOBS, MEET LOTS OF PEOPLE. i PLAYED rdr1 AND KNEW dUTCH BUT WAS WILLING TO GIVE HIM SOME SLACK FOR rdr2-UNTIL HIS VERY FIRST SPEECH ABOUT THROWING SELF INTO THE GROUND. [sorry bout the caps, kinda blind two-fingred typist]] Anyway, never trust someone who sings flowers and Sunshine when you meet them or obviously does it enough to make pretty speeches full of nothing.
You need to do a video on Dutch is plan which is, was there even a plan? Or was the plan just to keep everyone in line.
Dutch has rizz...
delete this comment before it’s too late
@@coolthefool1 Elaborate, what is "too late" ?
@@NedoFinlay before i see this odd comment again
@@coolthefool1ohh...funny...Real knee slapper
@@LEEEENNYAhh shot op orthor, i can scrap orthur
Honestly i couldnt stand bronte. Hes exactly the same as dutch hes just more arrogant because he has more money. Hes just the same though. Get them as poor children, give them something pretty and tell them what they want to hear while you mold them into bullet shields for yourself. That's bronte and that's dutch as well
Congratulations for the intro
do you write your script of the video before or do you just make it up on the spot?
What always bugged me about the camp is that nobody could come up with buying or stealing a bathtub, you have to pay 25 cents everytime Arthur needs a bath.
BUT
But
But.
Dutch has wooden flooring, a table and a phonograph with classical music wax cylinders in his fully enclosed tent. Being clean can fall in second place while little Dutch needs his feet to be kept warm and his music?
Out of all of Dutch's speeches, the only one that made sense is the speech he did in Chapter 1 when they arrived at Colter
Dutch seems like a reminder of what happens if we idolize politicians
I always believed that Dutch allowing Micah to enter the gang was him getting tired of pretending
23:50 There is only One Savior, and His name is Jesus Christ. Unfortunately, the gang put their faith in a false messiah, a false Christ.
Gabriel jesus,he's good enough😂
Anyone know the name of the song in the background at 15:50?
Horse shoe over look travelling music
@asadshahid9885 thank you
@@captancrunch1 I appreciate it brother
i fear that you eat with every video..
Do i sound like i eat with every video?
@@CynicGTA not like legit eat. like you always kill on your videos they are so good
my old friend groupchat lore is LITERALLY red dead redemption 2
Wait was john shot at the ferry job bc the strange man tells him so but Im sure john was fine in the robbery
One weird thing. If Dutch thought John/Abigail were ratting, why would Abigail have the key to Dutch's money chest if you choose the ending where you go back for the money? Idk why but that just now occurred to me after thinking she may have/probably ratted in order to have a life for her/John/Jack
She doesn't trust dutch after he refused to save john from the prison
According to my Gf the real master of manipulation. Is me
Dutch is just a snake, a couple notches above Micah.
I would love a modern day dutch like character as i villain in gta
So do people believe dutch was always evil, do they believe he turned evil, or do they think he’s misunderstood
I believe originally was a good man, but a complicated man, but overtime, he started to become more and more evil and depraved
I always saw Dutch as a smooth talking conman and highway robber who used the whole 'modern day Robin Hood' schtick as a cover to justify his actions and get people to follow him.
Over time, he actually started to believe the things he was saying and became delusional. But once things started to fall apart and he lost control of the situation, his charming facade dropped, reveling what he really was.
Underneath it all, he's nothing more than a narcissistic sociopath who only cares about himself and will ruin the lives of anyone if it means he comes out on top.
The gang lasted 20 years, what we see in the game is only the last year or so when everything started to fall apart, and you can see from old newspaper clippings at least early on they did seem tonhave that code Arthur spoke of, but the pressure of being hunted made them all more desperate.
I f you consider the immense pressure Dutch was under during the latter half of the game, the responsibilties of keeping 20 people fed and safe when they were being hunted like animals, a lot of people would crack like Durch did
I have no doubt he was self serving and the gang and its code were a way to feed his own ego, if being outlaws who were "better" than the other gangs because they had "a code" but those princioles held for 20 odd years and only fell apart under immense pressure at the end.
Doesn't make the way he betrayed the people who were loyal to him for the sake of a rat he knew for 6 months but looking at the situation he was in makes it easier to understand why he lost his shit.
his first sentences in the game are lies ;)
@@Erika_Kohl nah man i disagree with that. man put himself in dire risk of being stabbed by a completely unstable and hysteric woman simply to help calm her down and get her shelter.
he would would have. he would have./
Audio quality is not good
Well done. Great video.
The opening montage was fire
Sounds like my moms tv downstairs
What if Dutch shot Mac on the ferry
What if the gang robbed the bank of Rhodes instead of the bank in Saint denis?
You can, actually. With Charles and Uncle.
But its was just a social call
5:28
i see dutch as a hero
You’re awesome man
So do people believe dutch was always evil, do they believe he turned evil, or do they think he’s misunderstood
It depends on the person believing which one
Its Both
He never changed, Arthur was the one that turned on him, I mean dude was literally undergoing a redemption 😂
@@kaydens6964can you please shut up? Every bloody video remotely related to this topic, and there you are spouting shitforbrains takes on morality and character analysis.
varies between people.
In a sense he was always evil cause he chose robbing and killing. He had a sense of honor that made him stand out compared to people like O Driscol and others, that balanced out his behavior... Clearly also an egoist and proud but one that still had a sense of morality unusual for his ilk.
The morality fell to peices under increasing stress and the lost of the people who kept him anchored and sane, the biggest break being the loss of Hosea.
He wasn't a 'proper' narccisit though. He does too many things that go against it, and there is no way that Dutch could ahve had such a loyal and put together gang last for so long if he was.
True you got asshole like we have to day ruling nations but there is a level of difference here cause dutch's gang was always small and personable, a family. Closer a man is to ya ever day the more things can be.... off.
One of the most well-written character not only in Video Game industry, but in movie industry as well.
Dude, it's "needle" -- "needling", it's pronounced the same way.
I've been getting into this conversation way way too much recently, but whatever; TH-cam pushes RDR2 content on me like illicit substances. All of this is why I don't think Dutch is interesting, or "complicated". Characters in Rockstar games rarely are and I'm kind of tired of people not recognizing it or calling it out. The thing about Micah is it's just another way for the Housers to obfuscate about Dutch's character, and weave in a scapegoat that the audience can hate until the finale, in case they might get bored with fifty hours of the ostensibly more nuanced character in Dutch. It's all pretty lame. The fan theories are even worse. How about this: maybe Micah gave him lead poisoning. Like honestly who cares? What does it say about Dutch's character if a head injury made him into a completely different person. It's a rhetorical question because the answer is obviously "nothing." That's completely outside Dutch's control, so it's obviously not good character writing if that answers any of the questions gamers have about his behavior. Yet for no discernible reason they love this stuff
You clearly don't pay much attention. The head injury in itself is a theory and that's not what caused anything. He was always a manipulative narcissist, he just stopped caring to hide it after Hosea died, he no longer had the voice of reason grounding him.
And if you don't like RDR2 content, don't watch it. Hitting the dislike button and telling TH-cam to stop recommending it is pretty easy. Crazy how you can claim this game having bad writing is a fact because of your own pre-conceptions about the characters and hating Rockstar games.
@@Zeroshiki "The head injury in itself is a theory" that's interesting... a theory of what, exactly?
@@Zeroshiki That's what I thought.
arthur is a boring charecter
Bros trying to start shit
This take is so bad you can't even spell it right
no im just stating
my opinion@@jellyjohn7881
i dont care if anyone disagrees with me i dont depend on the crowd to love me@Vinguy889
Opinion not accepted 🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬👺👺👺👹👹👹👹👹👹👹👹👹👹👹👺👺👺👺🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬
What if the plan was for Dutch to ditch the gang during the black water mascara ? I sont think he thought the gang would make it out
The people say it's because of head trauma are only half right. It was mental trauma that warped him even worse than he was before. Ironically The Pinkertons managed to break Dutch and his gang up by making him worse. I feel he did genuinely care about Arthur and definitely Hosea. I think he did start to perceive Arthur as being a doubter and taking it personally as the Pinkertons turned up the pressure and having Micah dripping poison in his ear constantly. A lot of people would snap.