I tried The Last of Us: Part 2 again...
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 21 ก.ย. 2024
- The Last of Us Part 2 is one of the most praised games of all time. Its received hundreds of Game of the Year awards, and is one of PlayStation's most successful launches of all time. But now, 2 years later, we have to ask: is it as good s everyone thought it was? Today we find out.
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Playing this on highest difficulty and zero UI is probably some of the most immersive experience I’ve ever had from a PlayStation game
Custom difficulty and the cheats make this game so much fun its great coming up with little challenges.
@@geordiejones5618 can you give an example?
Zero UI??
I feel like the game is really made to be played on grounded. The whole game should be extremely difficult and have you feeling like you’ll run out of supplies. It’s such an immersive experience that way
@@artursaizikovics3433 I use custom difficulties so that I can have little resources as possible without having harder AI, so now I’m immersed in this world. The accessibility in this game is great. You can also turn up the aim assist and turn off the UI and it’s like watching a movie.
What really blew me away abt Tlou2 was the character animations. Honestly, its the best character animation work in any game ever.
That and the level design. Absolutely incredible
Yup. Not even a debate. The production of the game is the best we’ve ever seen in a linear story driven game. I can’t say of all time because RDR2 was next level in Open world too.
Still can believe a base PS4 can run this game.
@@Jose-se9pu my ps4 slim runs this game amazingly well. imagine a naughty dog game built for the ps5 in 2-3 years, gonna be insane
@@TheMrGiannisgr Yeah Last of us 2 had better graphics but Rdr2 had so much more to deal with and still made graphics that hold up next to it.
I remember describing this game to my friend after finishing it.
I just said, "I am emotionally exhausted." Very few games made me feel so many intense emotions.
I just finished it honestly. I loved this experience, but geez, I'm spent.
Me too. Which is why I loved it. The only game that has ever made me actually feel something. God of war was also great. but compared to any other game TLOU 1/2 actually feels like a real story and incredibly emotionally thought through.
15 hours of fight to the death hype then they forgive each other by the power of friendship and flashback 🤢
@@hamndv you haven't played the game, that much is obvious. You also haven't played the first game either, as it described perfectly why tlou2 ends the way it does. Joel talks about it time and time again by the end of TLOU1.
@@simonfarre4907 the game was free on PS+ got the platinum fast then uninstalled just didn't like the story nor the ending that's all
I remember Seattle Day 2, Ellie embarked on her journey towards the Hospital without Dina. The sombre atmosphere didn’t just remind me of the loss of Joel as Ellie traversed the empty streets, but the dread that comes with the thought of losing the only parent one has in this world. The feeling of being lost and subsequent realisation that the only fear you had your whole life, being all alone, has now become a reality. The graphical technology has definitely advanced, but to paint a picture that expresses this much is the work of a true artist.
Wasn’t really her parent
@@smoontrain9804 yes he was
@@smoontrain9804 so just a question if a kid was adopted by someone and they loved and cared for them for years and raised them are they not the kids parent? Because there’s no difference here Ellie loved Joel as a father and Joel loved her as his daughter someone doesn’t need to be blood related to be a parent to someone
@@smoontrain9804 bruh, way to be a downer lmao
It was actually day 2, just to remember.
The main issue that I personally have with this story is how inconsequential it is. This revenge story is just one, of hundreds, if not thousands of revenge stories occurring in the game's post apocalyptic world. Any one of the NPCs that Ellie and Abby kill are fathers/mothers, sons/daughters, husbands/wives. Any one of them could come back to restart the cycle of revenge. In the first game, Ellie and Joel's story was unique to them. Only the girl that was immune and the smuggler that took her could have a journey like that.
Well I think the argument is that what Joel did wasn’t for survival it wasn’t them vs us and a fight. It was someone who slaughtered abbys father in basically cold blood along with everyone else there. You’re right revenge could trigger from any of these random npcs you fight and kill but Joel’s deed was so horrible to an entire group that it was deserving of revenge. The world of the last of us is very harsh and unforgiving and I feel Joel living happily ever after, after what he did would have spit in the face of that constant.
@@kirkvanallen5202 I concur, Joel’s the reason there’s (potentially) no cure for the viral outbreak and for what could’ve been the re-establishing of human society
That's the beauty of TLOU story line. It isn't a happy ending video game it isn't for the kind hearted. The reality is the world is a cold stone crappy survival of the fittest. If you don't like that then you this franchise isn't for you. Try Day's Gone. They do have a happy ending.
@@kirkvanallen5202 yes its true that Joel did some horrible things, especially from a moral standpoint. However, this is a post apocalyptic world, a world where bandits kill people for a couple scraps of food and clothes. Morality is rarely a thought when so many follow their basic human instincts which are not satisfied. For the people that do, they want revenge on those that killed their loved ones. However there are also some that simply don't wanna fight anymore. For example, You don't see Lev actively showing hatred towards the WLF for killing his sister. He also stopped Abby from killing Dina. He even tried (and failed) to convince his mother. He simply wanted the fighting to end. With all this in mind, is it really that unbelievable for a person like Joel to live and die a peaceful life, despite all he has done? I want to mention that i have no problem with Joel dying. I just feel that revenge shouldn't have been the main topic for a story based in a post apocalyptic world, especially when so many are willing to kill on an everyday basis for basic resources.
@@javierlandaverde4108 do you think I'm someone that thinks Joel dying immediately makes the game bad? I wasn't expecting a happy ending with no consequences. I simply wanted a well written dark story, and IMO this game fails catastrophically in both its objectives and methodology.
I don’t remember anybody complaining that the game looked or played bad. it was just a really crappy story and it was not what people wanted for a sequel. Joel was one of the most beloved characters from the first game, and then they just erased him in one of the most disrespectful and illogical ways. And it sure didn’t help that they released deceptive, marketing not to mention they struck down anybody that was even remotely talking about not liking the game on TH-cam.
I think some of the themes they wanted to explore were okay, but the direction wasn't the best. I think it would have been better to have you play as Abby and Ellie, but Abby is trying to kill Joel for the most of the game. The player would want to keep Joel and Ellie safe, whilst getting to know Abby and her perspective. It would have the theme of the pointlessness of revenge and the perspective shift. I think the directions they chose were shocking for th sake of being shocking without actually having the nuance and subtlety needed to explore themes like those.
no i feel like the atmosphere post joel's death is necessary and looms large over the whole story.
I never had a problem with Joel dying, per se. The death of the mentor is a pretty common part of the hero’s journey. Granted, I wouldn’t have minded if it happened later in the story. My biggest issue was that I’ve never played any game that went to more effort to make you feel like absolute crap for playing it.
The thing with "death of the mentor" is that it always gives the protagonist, the hero going on the hero's journey, a reason to fight. It gives them a goal of someone to repay the favor to. For most of the game, you don't even play as the "hero" and instead play as the "villain" while the game tries to make you think that the villain is the good guy and that the hero is the bad guy. Thus, it makes you feel like absolute crap for playing it.
He died like shit. I didn't like that. I was connected to him after the start of TLoU. And Abby was forced to me and I didn't like it, and then they gave me Ellie to take revenge but they didn't let me choose to kill Abby, so no revenge anyways.
Yes but having Joel die because Ellie was hellbent in revenge would have been more gut wrenching, because the magnitude would have finally impacted Ellie.
Imagine Ellie saying “no no no” if he got shot and died on the hunt for abby.
Joel’s death was very underwhelming.
Ellie isn't a hero. This isn't your typical main protagonist always wins hero story. The entire point of the first game, the reason everyone loved it, Joel and ellies dynamic. Taking that away destroys the franchise. No one gives a fuck to play a tlou3 now. They ruined it.
Another probably is that everybody dies Ellie lost Joel who is her father figure not knowing it but Joel does jesse who didn’t make it through one game and for Abby, all her friends are dead Alongside with her dad and if you didn’t figure it out this game is about revenge and hate
I think it’s also important to not forget that 70% of the staff quit due to crunch and some were even hospitalised. We have to demand better treatment for the developers making these games.
That's not even mentioning the fact that Neil druckmann fired anyone who disagreed with what he was doing with the story
Good point. Thank you for raising.
@@mariobadia4553 lol you got proof for that?
I have to be honest here, I always hated this topic. People always pick and choose when it’s relevant. What about Free to Play games? Those are MASSIVE and are the biggest games on the market.
Fortnite, Apex Legends, Genshin Impact and Call of Duty:Warzone are obvious examples. If we really care about crunch then these games shouldn’t exist in this format because they’re money pits and incentivize bad business practices overall. And there’s more on the way from every major publisher and studio.
When Free to Play games are lackluster even for a season they are forgotten. How many battle passes are just thrown away by the public because the skins in it were ‘meh’. All that time and effort wasted and more importantly disrespected.
“Stop being lazy these skins suck! I won’t support these guys if they aren’t even going to try”. This is how a lot of people think. Very hypocritical.
When I first played this game, I wasn’t all that disappointed with this game. I guess after hearing everyone talking down at it made me go in with low expectations. I think Kratos said it best when he said to “keep your expectations low and you will never be disappointed.”
I played the 1st game and the DLC. Really enjoyed it. Didn't buy the game at launch and instead was waiting for PS5 release. Def made the difference and the game was enjoyable. Might not be for everyone. More for a very mature audience. This game also is not recommended to play it in one play through or rushed. Recommend playing it through small takes to analyze the story and information for each chapter. Take your time to explore the world and land and understand the world of TLOU is very bleak, grim and dark. You also begin to slowly understand low key this game brings up a lot of phycological problems we have not seen games aiming for. Stuff such as PTSD to schizophrenia, to extreme depression, bi-polar and many more stuff. Beautiful game that showcases the nastiness of humans. Game really pulled through.
@@javierlandaverde4108 all of those things have been talked about and touched on in many diffent horror games in the past.. yall just didn't play them 😒🙄
@@Glane6339 I meant to say survival game genre. Horror does bring in a lot of those topics such as Evil Within and others. Regardless though Naughty Dog does bring good detail of mental issues in a post apocalyptic world.
The gameplay, graphics, animation, and voice acting are amazing in this game and I do like the story except for what they do with Joel and for the Abby parts. They should NOT have killed off Joel so fast. They should of at least let us actually play as him for at least 1-2 levels. Let him stay alive for at least an extra hour or 2.
Having him be killed off in the first 30-40 min sucks. We finally get the last of us 2 and everyone was looking forward to playing as Joel and seeing what they do with him and we don’t even get to play as him once?! He just immediately dies like WTF.
I also HATE ABBY. They should of cut her parts out except for the part in the beginning of the game, the part with her dad and the part near the end of the game when she goes after Ellie and fights her. Having the entire second half of the game force you to play as her ruins the game tbh.
@@darkhaven9119 they never said you would play as Joel in the sequel, you set yourself up for disappointment from the start if you were expecting a Joel and Ellie fun adventure.
I think that the story of the first game is way more fluid and tight as a narrative, where the second one falters a bit with the pacing. But I found some of the jarring moments to be quite emotional. I’m more of a character study kind of guy when it comes to story telling, and this hit in more ways than I was expecting. Part 2 tries things that most games don’t even dare trying, and I think it works way more than it doesn’t. Plus, the end scene with Joel and Ellie is the most emotional ending to a game I’ve ever experienced. My favourite game of all time
“I dont know if I can forgive you…but I’d like to try” Absolutely beautiful moment
@@Timeothy beautiful and tragic. Gives a whole new layer to Ellie’s motivation
Exactly. The first game has its traumatic moments, and fantastic emotional impact, but Part II just took things to a whole other level. When Luke mentions how it’s hard for him to come back to playing Part II, I am exactly the same. Not that it’s a bad game, far from it, but it’s such an emotional jarring experience that it is so hard to put myself through more than once. The first game, I can play any day of the week, but the second is just way too much for me emotionally to do it more than once.
The first game is way more simple and linear in its narrative, which is not a bad thing, but I really enjoyed how layered the story of the second game was.
@@LiTTleGaBi21 now you need to ask yourself how well it pulled it off.
People talk about Joel’s death when the real murder was of Ellie’s character. She was thrown under the bus so people like Abby better.
I 100% agree, Ellie didn't even feel like Ellie anymore, she became so unlikeable in TLOU2
@@JustANyanCat did you like Abby though? That’s all they care about.
Fr. My problem is that they made Abby feel like she was the true protagonist waiting her turn to show up instead of just giving her some insight for her development. Total crap
If I put myself in Joel's shoes I'd still do all those things. I don't have kids, but if it was between my wife's life and everyone else's, well, I am sorry for everyone else. That is why is hard to empathize with Abby
I agree. Joel's decision in the first game was not heroic, but it was very human. If the world has to burn for me to save a loved one, the world is gonna burn. The game constantly tries to say Joel was wrong in the part one, but I don't agree with that.
@@mauricehopes9105 "The game constantly tries to say Joel was wrong in the part one,"
LOL Of course it does... that's why the most beautiful statement in the game is: "I would do it again" aka I love you...
I agree that I would likely act in my own interest in that type of scenario. It's not "logical", but the perspective that Joel had is completely understandable. However... there are other perspectives. Just because *Joel* did what he had to, that doesn't mean no one else did the same. Abby killed him because from her perspective, that was what she had to do. Neither Joel nor Abby considered the consequences of their actions and were both selfish in their ways.
I can still empathize with that because if someone I loved (a partner, parent, child, sibling, etc.) was killed or was in danger, I would absolutely prioritize them over anything else. It would completely overcome my thoughts and I could see myself acting similarly if I were in their situations.
I will never understand why people say that Joel was in the right as if there are no other perspectives to consider. Perhaps people view their own perspective as absolute and infallible, so they insert that logic into any protagonist of a story.
Again, I'm not saying Joel was *evil,* I'm saying that his perspective is not unique. I can empathize with his rationale - *his perspective* - as well as that of Ellie, Abby, Lev, Yara, Dina, Tommy, Owen, Mel, Jesse, Nora, Manny, Sam, Henry, Bill, Tess, Marlene, Riley, and basically everyone else in these games. Except for David. He was a rapist/pedophile. Basically the only character where there's no room for empathy.
I don't think the main issue is that you're not able to empathize with Abby. I think the game could have worked even if some players failed to empathize with Abby, IF there was sensible writing. The following was my personal takeaway, but I think the idea would also apply to players who didn't relate to Abby.
I have no problem with the themes being explored, I have no problem with trying to show nuance, but the fact that Ellie never found out WHY Abby took "revenge" is baffling. Ellie lost everything, and though we are meant to believe she had growth, it seems almost impossible that a person would have this growth without reason to reflect or empathise.
Showing past conversations with Joel is all well and good as a way to draw parallels, but they can hardly be effective if Ellie doesn't know the stakes.
I find it really hard to believe that Ellie's beliefs/motives would change for arbitrary empathy, "oh Joel must have done something pretty bad, that's the only reason why somebody would want to kill him". If Ellie's revelation could have been this simplistic and only brought about by her own actions (and not a combination of reflection and empathising) then it would have happened maybe an hour into her revenge quest, when she's killing her 5th 'victim'.
So even if you hate Abby, with decent writing you would empathize with Ellie, and actually understand why SHE would be willing to forgive. Oh well.
You can still align with Joel and also empathize with Abby. They’re not mutually exclusive. I believe that’s what the point of the game is. To not look at it black and white and see the grey that is you can see why both have their reasons doing what they did and going through the aftermath and recourse of those decisions. Abby realizing by the end that her revenge brought her no peace, because after defending Lev she started to see why he did what he did, but can still hate him for what he did. It’s more complex than “they’re trying to make Joel out to be the bad guy”
hey Luke, long time watcher here. i love there retrospective videos you've been doing lately, they really allow a conversation to open up about games such as TLOU2 with out all of the immediate drama around release, as well as allowing a deeper appreciation of the games that a lot of us adore. just wanted to say cheers for the great content and hope you and yours are doing well. oh and congratulations on becoming a dad, don't work too hard!
Part 2 was missing Bruce straley, who was the one who told Neil not to make the first game a story of revenge. He was very important in helping Neil filter out many narrative choices thar were considered for the story. So I’d say part didn’t have the same people working on it narratively, as Neil was left alone and in charge to do anything he wanted, given brice wasn’t there to say otherwise. I’m my honest opinion, Neil has talent, but he needs someone to help him filter out his ideas. He didn’t this time, and it shows.
But the story for Part 2 worked, so what in the world are you talking about?
To be honest, he carried. Neil's want to make this political really hurt the story
@@krasmasov6852 It didn't work. The game tried at every point to force you to like Abby. The first game let you choose how you feel about Joel, something the sequel should've known to do. What's worse is if you don't like Abby your labeled a tranaphobe. The community is shit and Neil is shit
@@arsonistchoir2187 What was political about Part 2?
@@krasmasov6852 Lev and Abby. They both kill but the game treats it as justified when Joel and Ellie did the same but their bad for it. Feels like the game is saying it's OK to kill if your trans
If farting in your hand and deeply inhaling it we’re a video game, it would be the Last of Us 2
There's no need to insult farts like that.
The real murder was to Ellie's character in terms of personality. By the last third of the game, Ellie had all reason to give up, call it quits, and just live a fulfilling life. But we can't have that in Druckmann's Tour of Misery.
not too sure she’d be the usual, bubbly 3@83 that we saw in tlou1 after she quite literally witnesses the murder and torture of her father and gains ptsd from it, if her personality was any different it would be bad and inconsistent writing
That seems very realistic. She was still fighting her demons. She had PTSD over what had happened. She didn’t want to go find and kill Abby she had to, she was compelled to internally. It wasn’t until the end after seeing what happened to Abby and lev and realizing how far she has come and how lost she was.
Why do people with successful and fulfilling lives ever make the wrong decisions? Life isn’t as simple as life’s good never do anything to jeopardize that it’s more along the lines of what is worth jeopardizing my life? What can compel me to do so? What is worth it?
I feel if you’re still compelled by vengeance over your father being brutally murdered in front of you then that’s something you’re willing to give up happiness for.
I don’t understand why people started to dislike ellie by the end. I understood why she was doing what she did and it’s times was rooting for her and at others wishing she would stop but knowing that it was an unrealistic thing to expect. Her self destructive nature triggered by what happened to Joel is one of the most human things that can happen to someone especially considering they are already apart of a world where murder and fighting for your life is a given.
I completely disagree. Ellie was obviously still tortured by PTSD, she couldn't sleep etc. I think it's easy for us to say what "the right choice" is from afar but imagine actually living through this. She believed killing Abby would take that burden of her shoulders.
I agree with you. I think they justify that in the story but doesn't mean I have to like it or call it good. It's just not a story I wanted to see.
@@mattevans1988 and that’s the type of honest response I like to see from people disagreeing with me. First game is Bittersweet with sweet moments and the second game is bitter with bittersweet moments, understandable that you’d prefer a more positive story.
It took me 2 years to get through the 5 stages of grief for Joel, it’s weird how real his death felt
I understand why some people dislike the game, but I love it. It's one of my top 3 favorite games of all time, along with The Witcher 3 and Red Dead Redemption 2.
Also, I feel like everyone should play it at least two times. The story is much easier to process on subsequent playthroughs, because you can just take it all in without the shock that is present during the initial playthrough. It's also much easier to pick up on certain subtleties and nuances(facial expressions, body language, voice tone/inflection, etc.) during subsequent playthroughs, because you're more aware of the characters' motivations, as well as their feelings and regrets regarding certain things.
No one asked.
Well, no one's arguing that this game doesn't appeal to simpletons such as yourself.
Bad opinion alert.
I played it again awhile back, up to the section after Abby rescues Lev. And I can’t get past the gripes I have to fully appreciate the good because the things that I don’t like are tied to major components of the game; characters, the structure, and other decisions. I’ll say that Tlou2 absolutely has some great gameplay and in-game scripted moments.
I cant finish it a second time, i think it’s a good game but it’s also boring at times. With Ellie you just spend so much time going from house to house, room to room etc without actually getting anywhere it feels like and it’s got no interesting dialogue or backstories to help make it feel less boring and then it’s the same with Abby.
I recently started replaying TLOU2 and came to the realization that it is very similar to Attack On Titan The Final Season. I say that because of the themes that are addressed and the perspective shifts that occur. Personally I think that TLOU2 could’ve been a masterpiece if it had a better story structure. It’s a technical marvel of a game held back only by awkward pacing and a story that doesn’t really say anything new in an interesting way.
@@SheanWalsh46 But I think the way Attack on Titan ended was planned perfectly right from the beginning which is why I probably appreciate it more. Erens character development was insane and with TLOU 2 I feel some of the choices made don't fit the character view and perspectives we were given.
They really downgraded tommy from the first game, he was reason Abby knew Joels name. He got shot by Abby losing an eye and is now handicapped.
How interesting, that none of your criticisms of the game are even remotely specific.
Take, for example, your claim of "bad pacing". Lemme guess, it would've been easier for your brain if Abbys' section was before Ellies' section, right?
And how, exactly, does the story have nothing new to say in an interesting way?
Lemme guess. All you see is a "revenge bad" narrative, right?
@@ResoluteDeicide sometimes things just go over peoples heads i think tlou2 had the most effective revenge story out there i mean what other medium can convey that type of emotion when you see joel die thats a character we loved we lived him 7 or so years ago we have thought about him ever since we've replayed the game over and over we love joel and when he dies theres a rush like ive never felt of oh shit i gotta go fuck things up and that lines up with ellies emotions too so the first part of the game feels very synergized and then when it abruptly cuts to abby YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO HATE IT and then as you keep playing you start to realize that theres two sides to every story and ignoring all the social commentary that i thought was great just making you think about shit maybe what i did before was wrong makes this game a very interesting story
@@ResoluteDeicide There's better ways to get your point across than insulting someone and being condescending. Think about it, if you we're the other guy, would you really think "this guy has a point, I'm gonna think about my stance a bit more," or, would you think "This guy's an asshole, why would I listen to them?"
You couldn't be more wrong with that sentence, outright showing the player that their sense of morality objectively *sucks* is the one interesting thing Neil Druckmann has ever done with his writing.
Joel would never die so stupidly because he is a veteran survivor.
No way would Abby become so muscular in a post apocalyptic setting with rationed food.
No way would Abby convince a small army to join her just to kill one man
No way would Ellie suffer so much trauma, pain and loss just to let Abby go at the end of the game
Neil Druckmanns writing destroyed everything the first game stood for, he tried so hard to tell the story he WANTED that it ended up breaking all sorts of logic and reason(as my points above state)
The game ends up being a depressing, nihilistic mess what doesn't even have a gripping story outside of unnecessary sadness, like the main goal is to make the player hate themselves.
Neil and the writers tried to make a philosophical masterpiece what explored concepts of pain, trauma, death, revenge, brutality, but it ended up falling short and looking more like a emo depressed teen fanfiction
A gripping depressing and nihilistic game would be Kane e Lynch 2: Dog Days, and that game only last 5 hours!
I agree with all your points. By the theater I was still 1000% on Ellie's side. And by the final battle I just was exhausted and didn't care anymore.
Playing this game is a miserable experience and I hate it.
@@mauricehopes9105 that's exactly what happens when writers try to be deep and philosophical instead of trying to make a beautiful well crafted story
A massive L for Neil Druckmann, really lost respect as a writer
@@xoxoxoxo8281 Been philosophical and meta is fine as long as you actually know exactly what are talking about and know how to deliver it properly in an engaging way. David Cage is a great example with Detroit: Become Human. He is basically the Charlie Kauffman of writing games. Neil Druckmann very simply isn't and never will be that kind of writer.
@@taliamason7986 i know im like 11 months late to this convo, but like idk why people forget that Neil Druckmann also wrote the first game. Like yeah i can understand if people hate on him for Part 2, I get it. And I respect people's opinions but like idk why people call him a shitty writer now that Part II is out even though like i said, he wrote the first game, and also wrote some of Uncharted 4. (I know its not all of it).
I just finished this for the first time, I played it in chunks throughout roughly 1 year. Yeah it's a painful game. I'm conflicted about it, there are good and not so good elements. It's technically impressive and there are genuinely emotional moments which are often cut off by head scratching and eye rolling choices. It's strange, I neither like nor dislike it, but it's messy for sure.
I feel exactly the same.
top 3 golf simulator for sure
It’s too damn long. It becomes such a slog.
@@Budd631 If only the story didn't keep hammering the same point about the cycle of vengeance for 20 hours.
@stevebob240 same here. I told my friends it's an amazing game with interesting characters, but a shit convoluted story that tries extremely hard to make you feel bad around each corner. At the end my only motivation was to get the trophy to see how many people completed the game, which was 58%. So 40% just didn't care to finish the game and I can understand why
The problem for me was that the game clearly needed me to feel things that I didn't feel - I had lost all motivation to find out what that was about 6 hours in...
I agree. I had to force myself to finish it. I did it mainly to talk to some friends about it. Everything after the farm feels pointless.
ah the game made me feel like shit which is why I liked it so much one of the first games that didn’t give the player what it wanted and challenged us and didn’t give us no “Joel dies sacrificing himself for Ellie” bs the way the story was told is kind how something in real life would play out if someone was telling you a story, not completely climatic and a bittersweet ending and not knowing what to expect in the middle of it. I managed to keep myself safe from spoilers besides Joel’s death and I decided to buy and play the game and at first I was like “hell nah” but then I forced myself to face it and I liked that they chose to tell something unique and ambitious and I respected it and I actually found myself looking past my hate for Abby and the plot holes and enjoying the game and it’s message
@@localwarlord wow, you must have a really boring mindset then!
Yeah it was a very unique choice I wasn’t a big fan of it
@@mauricehopes9105 yeah she went all that way yet didn’t kill Abby again. That part was fun af though.
The combat and stealth in this is SO MUCH FUN.
I always have a good laugh with the carnage while playing it.
And the animations, my God, I can't get enough of this game.
Absolutely. So many revolutionary gameplay mechanics in this game that aren't talked about enough.
This game has so many small details... Naughty Dog is amazing with detail
@@ResoluteDeicide people won't care about a revolutionary game if it's revolutionazing woke politics
hell yeah i honestly kind of got sucked into the hate in the beginning until i played it from start to finish and i have to say i love this game, i realky had a change of heart
Reading the comments just reminded me of how passionate people are, still heavily debating this game years later. I heard the director said something like he’d rather have a game people either loved or hated than just an okay forgotten game. Outside of some of the really toxic stuff, looks like he succeeded with that.
We're only talking about it because it ruined our favorite studio. We're only talking about it because the best quality graphics and animations ever in a video game were wasted on a throwaway story and terrible game design. 5-7 years of a good studio's energy wasted. I'm not touching anything Druckmann makes
@@PassportGaming this video was not talking about ruining anything, more so him praising it. I heavily disagree with you, but it’s all just opinions in the end nothing to be mad about.
@@PassportGaming The story was the best part. What are you talking about?
@@krasmasov6852 I suggest you watch the video pinned in the comments of my last video. I made it explaining why the game is trash
@@PassportGaming that wasn't even your video talking about why it was bad don't use other people's talking point as a justification to why you think it bad use your own thoughts and reasons. If there the same as other state that that you share another person views.
Last of Us 2 and Bojack Horseman makes me feel the same way. Every little bit that they consist is gorgeous to me. The storytelling, the visuals, the dialogues, the journey... But at the same time, it sends me into insanely tumultuous emotional state. It's like getting high if you have asthma! It's fun, but you CAN die.
DO NOT compare these two. TLOU part 2 has a rubbish plot full of ideology. Bojack has fantastic writing
@@mrdee2454 lol, u mad
@@mrdee2454 still crying 2 years later lol
@@alborzajeli768 it’s just garbage point blank period, if you hadn’t figured out that revenge is bad by the fith grade idk what to tell you
@@jsgdhsusx2860 and yet you still cheered when John killed Micah
TLOU 2 for me, was a game that to this day I have had very mixed feelings about. On the one hand, the environment, level design, enemy AI, and action gameplay mechanics are some of the best I have ever experienced in my entire life. It was moment after moment of jaw dropping visuals and the combat felt very tense and rewarding both against humans and the different kinds of infected. I also really enjoyed the crafting system and scavenging for supplies as it felt as though I was "leveling up" when I was just upgrading my weapons mostly. On the other hand, despite understanding what ND was trying to do, I don't think it worked very well. I understand that I am coming from a place of bias, but I think (SPOILER AHEAD-----------)
that as a fan of the series, I wanted to spend more time with Joel then I did with a new character whose main purpose for existing was to try and convince me how "maybe Joel wasn't such a good guy". My other problem was that I didn't believe Ally's character arc felt genuine. It felt very forced and I was constantly getting the impression that the devs were pushing a morale point ahead of their characters. Oftentimes I found myself questioning whether a ruthless murderer like Ally would spare Ellie when she spend the entire game killing everyone who got in her way for way less. She also had no issues killing several members of her own faction over a Scar she had known for like a day and constantly placed her life in danger for ppl she did not know very well. I was left scratching my head wondering how she made it this far with all the bad decisions she was making. I felt like the second half of the game made way less sense to me then the first half, but I still enjoyed it once I decided to focus on the gameplay instead.
I agree 100%, I found the story quite believable and grounded for the most part in the first half of the game, but as it went on the story felt so forced and coincidental that the story itself become sort of fake in my mind. Like you said, characters started making decisions that just weren't believable given their motivations, their past, and the world around them. Ultimately, when the player doesn't think character's are doing what they would do in the world, you have failed at presenting a story that someone can immerse themselves in. I also agree entirely that the gameplay and visuals were fantastic, and it was fun if you checked out of the story, which in the end, i'd assume most people ended up doing.
"Maybe Joel wasn't such a good guy"
Wait, hold on, what? Did you actually PLAY the first game? Because the first game was pretty clear that between Sarah's death and. I think I'll say partway through when he and Ellie meet Tommy in Jackson. Joel is a pretty damned terrible fucking guy.
And then there's the hospital at the end, which was also not exactly good guy behavior.
What strikes me about TLOU2 is how, in what we see of Joel in the flashbacks and in the opening. He's actually probably a better person than he ever was in the first game except the prologue with Sarah. The character development from Ellie and living in Jackson.
@@scion9588 yeah, I beat the TLOU at least 10 times lol so I think it is safe to say I have played it. I think what I took away from my experience was that Joel became a hardened survivor in a world where he could not trust people and where most things tried to kill him. And living in such a world, I think there were a lot of points where Joel has had to do some bad things in order to live. That being said, despite everything, Joel managed to retain some very admirable qualities like being fiercely loyal (not wanting to leave Tess behind, looking for Ellie in a blizzard while suffering serious injuries, rescuing Ellie, helping Tommy fight off bandits) and exhibiting a remarkable amount of courage. He was also someone who had empathy, when he saw Sam, he immediately stopped fighting his older brother bevause he realized they were just trying to survive to. I don't think Joel was "a terrible fucking guy" nor do I think he was a saint, he was a complicated character who was struggling with processing the loss of his daughter and kept most ppl at arms length. He was pragmatic and prioritized survival, not only for himself, but for those he cared for. Its totally fine if we have different opinions on Joel, I think that is what makes him such an interesting, compelling, and beloved character of the series.
@@scion9588 Given the apocalyptic setting, Joel was a pretty great fucking guy. And everything he did in that hospital was entirely justified. Not sure why people bend over backwards to smear the guy so they can justify Abby's terrible revenge story. If my daddy was a sicko cultist cutting up children like a mad scientist and someone kills him for it, I wouldn't be shedding any tears nevermind going on a violent killing spree for revenge.
I agree. It is a technically beautiful game that I had a miserable time playing.
13:30 Again, false. The "same guys" did not make this one. The most obvious missing piece being game director Bruce Straley. Neil was not the same guy, either. He was an employee on the first one, and VP of the company here. Not to mention how 70% of the employees quit. This was a different company with the same name.
Tbh I never played the game, but one of my pet peeves is a revenge game where you kill everyone except the person you were supposed to get revenge on
How many of those are there?
That's misleading. It's a very bad tldr for what actually happens
@@conor6436 Quite a few. Look up the tropes Vengeance Feels Empty, Easily Forgiven, and If You Kill Him, You Will Be Just Like Him.
@@stam7250 But it's literally what happens? You can fluff it up with flashbacks and what not but Ellie killed a fuck ton of people to get to Abbey, just to not kill her?
It's just a meta narrative dissonance that ND clearly didn't think about themselves or didnt respect the player enough to think they would notice.
@@stam7250 Its literally the most predictable, boring and generic revenge story known to man. I enjoyed everything except the story, its just so terribly unoriginal and boring.
This game still feels like I bad dream
This game made me feel like the first one was good dream.
Same
Play it again.
Maybe you are just dumb
All I can say is I’ve never played a game that’s made me feel so many emotions at once. Hate it or Love it there’s no other game that can compare to this one!
not hating, but there are A LOT of games that puts you in a pool of emotions better than this one
@@yigitalpd4939 Completely subjective, but in my case no game has ever matched this level of emotion aswell. Whether you think the game is good or bad, it's an unforgettable experience
Not a lot of games try this hard to make you hate it Movies and shows do this a lot but they are usually contained within an episode or a 2 hours movie not 20hrs of emotional trauma, They asked Neil Druckmann how much trauma and he said "yes" . There are 2 type of interpretations of this story direction. One side hates it periodt and the other is seeing it as artistic and enjoys they were put in a position to hate it. Neither is wrong but both sides are very vocal about letting the other know they are right.
@@kowxley1793 it is a forgettable experience, your literally saying you opinion is everyone's. Do you not watch TV, movies and entertainment which literary survive of tragedies? Every single action movies plot starts with a tragedy revenge story. Bro.. just say your a goddamn casual that hasn't experienced many forms of entertainment. We arnt impressed with this cliche garbage we've seen a million times.
@@Qrows There's not a single video game that ever dealt with a revenge plot this way.
And I've played them all. And no, I don't mean the ending. Bro just like you, I watch tv shows, watch movies and read books (well, do you even read?)
You're still here talking about it, so I'm guessing it was unforgettable to you aswell, in another way.
Btw I never said my opinion is the same as everyone, idk where you read that.
Its interesting because while Ellie's story was extremely depressing (and admittedly a decent part of that was just how she was handling Joel's death and never letting anything happy into her life because of it), I'd still say there was moments of levity? Like her and Dina exploring in the open world section and so much of Yara Lev and Abby actually was pretty upbeat too at times. It was admittedly an emotionally draining experience but I never thought that each time there was a fork in the road the most depressing thing ever was picked, you know?
Its depressing because of the godawful writing
@@mariobadia4553 did I ask
@@alibobmarley750 can't deny facts
@@mariobadia4553 again. Did I ask
@@mariobadia4553 it's all subjective, don't be a jackass
So here's the thing. I enjoyed the hell out of this game. I played it every chance I got until I was done and even replayed a few chapters to get the platinum, which is something I care little about. But I was only able to do this because I completely disconnected from the characters and played it like a murderous psychopath. I killed everyone and everything. This game destroyed what I cared about in the series so I just went on a rampage and... I had a blast.
A friend of mine did the same thing and enjoyed it for the same reason.
@@28marshplan1 Tbf what that sounds like is
“Ignore the story in a story-based game and they’ll enjoy it”
I get what you mean "I enjoy my homocide Pyscho-path revenge simulators". It was more fun than the story definitely
ur a cool dude
Why's it so difficult for people to meet a piece of art halfway? We all cry about games being real art but as soon as one actually challenges us we disconnect and ask for more of the same.
How did it destroy what you cared about? Joel? You never cared or attempted to care about Ellie?
this game taught me there's a threshold on what I'll accept in games I play. Joel's murder made me numb to any of abbys experience. and it's not possible to force everyone to connect with the killer of say a family member. going deeper and darker has hit a wall with last of us 2.
And there’s still a lesson to be learned with that too. Ellie was numb to Abbys experience too.
@@youngnat Ellie was kinda forced to see Joel being killed, which is more messes up by my standard, having someone they know Joel cares for watch him get beated to death, would make them numb to any later reasoning.
@@chriswihulu I know just like how we were forced to watch it because I we wanted to play the game. I’m trying to say they did everything on purpose and it’s just not for everyone.
@@youngnat i was talking more about the character motivation, nothing that Abby did would make Ellie feel sorry for her, when she was forced to watch what happened to Joel.
If they had pulled them apart saying she didn't need to see this, or if Abby had shown even the slightest bit of reflection when doing to Ellie, worse than what Joel did to her dad, didn't force her to watch him die.
My basis for whether a character can be seen as redeemable or not, isn't rooted in my own beliefs, but that of the characters reacting to the first characters actions, which is the most precise context you can find.
@@chriswihulu Joel killed an innocent man, Abby was killing a bad guy. Joel did worse than what he got. Abby showed reflection after the fact, which makes sense, a blind rage that Ellie can relate to. Abby still had to see her father dead on the floor, also Ellie was gonna kill everyone in that room ruining her revenge plan. Why would Abby show any reflection while in the heat of that moment?
“Yeah yeah I had to see my father dead on the floor but you don’t have go through that”
I think the real problem is the Abby as a character. I enjoy depressing story’s and those in a realistic setting I, but there are some holes in it. Joel is a fearless survivor who is VERY protective of Ellie, but he has a past of being a smuggler with a lot of enemies as well as being a thug seen in the first game when they get ambushed in the car, tells me that they just wanted to kill Joel. He did not die protecting Ellie, he died in a bad fashion, protecting people who he had never met before and throwing caution to the wind, something Joel not to many years ago WOULD NEVER have done especially with Ellie. We all knew he was going to die but that’s not the point, HOW he died is. And Abby is just…unlike able to me. I truly will never understand why people like her, she drags all of her friends to kill one guy who screwed them all over, which is somewhat understandable. But they leave his BROTHER and a girl who’s clearly very attached. That’s just stupid. She than gets mad at Ellie for doing what she HERSELF did and finding it surprising when Ellie wants revenge just as she did. Abby has been killing scars for years, but two scars change her mind after saving her life. She brutally killed Joel even after he saved her life, I’m talking no HESITATION or anything. But she saves them? The scares have killed a lot of her friends and community, so it’s not all that different. She goes as far as to betray her entire community for them, all of her friends and comrades.
This should sum it all up. The story that the last of us 2 wanted to tell was that of revenge in regret, but it never seemed to go all of the way. Abby tortures Joel with a club, beating him to death while Ellie watches and the most we see is her still having nightmares about her father. Ellie beats a girl to death who stood by on Joel’s death, and she goes to dena with her hands shaking so traumatized so much she’s unable to take off her own shirt. Ellie kills owns pregnant gf in practically self defense and has a almost mental breakdown. Abby when in the same position, says “good” and is only stoped by lev. I did not see characters here. I did not see a cycle of revenge. I saw a depressing tale who’s soul purpose was not to display a theme ( a super simple one btw that can be found in kid tv shows who are better written.) but to only bastardize Ellie, and make Abby a gray character.
There’s a difference when a man kills your father, and warriors kill some of your friends.
Yes, both are horrible, but she doesn’t know specifically of the Seraphites who killed who. She knows for a fact Joel killed her father. Lev and Yara are people that saved her life, and she doesn’t know exactly if they killed her friends. This is also around the time in the game that Abby is starting to notice that not everything Isaac has been saying is true, and that maybe her people are the bad guys in that situation.
Thanks for putting that into words. I was struggling to identify what was wrong with the story other than it failed because all the emotional impact is at the beginning, when Joel is killed, rather than at the end. The reason Naughty Dog amp up the trauma as the game progresses is that they are trying to outdo Joel's death, but they cannot manage it because we don't feel attached to anyone except Ellie. Abby does not have the emotional depth to compete, and ultimately falls flat.
What if I told you that you aren’t really supposed to sympathize with either Abby or Ellie? This game is a tragedy, a cautionary tale. It shows how much pain and destruction ensues when two people develop unresolvable hatred towards each other and let nothing stand in the way of their revenge. There’s a reason both of them are shown as hollow, empty people at the end of the game, that’s the entire thematic point of the story. Neither character could find forgiveness and it destroyed them both. What makes the story compelling is that both characters have legitimate, justifiable reasons to want revenge on the other. It’s very emotionally difficult and I think that’s what many drove many players away.
@@MrZachtheKingsfan Issac is in the game for like 4 minutes in totally and in one convo that we see she is already ready to betray everything she’s known since she was 13-14? And again Joel saved her life too, you think that she’s loyal considering she’s been carring a hard on for Joel since he killed her dad, but apparently that only goes for 2 who she met and learned about over the course of 3 days. Again lazy writing, maybe she didn’t really care for them and only the members of the firefly group. Never told us, so at that point I’m writing the story for them. And it doesn’t matter the seraphites and wlf are at war, in her mind THEY ALL killed her friends. They make jokes about killing the cultists all the time.
I feel similarly. The game tries really hard to make you feel like both Abby and Ellie are just as bad as each other, but I was completely on Ellie side at all times. Abby is the one who started the whole thing. Ellie is justified in her want for revenge when Abby just sounds like a huge hypocrite through the whole game.
Even her revenge plot against Joel isn't justifiable. The fireflies tried to murder Joel and Ellie, he only killed Abby's father as a reaction to them trying to kill them. Abby's faction went out of their way to hurt Joel and Ellie.
its very weird how many ppl defend the decisions made in this game by calling them "intentional." Doing something intentionally doesn't automatically mean it was done well.
"I meant to make this story as shitty as possible"
" Wow, 10/10, so brave"
Lool tlou 2 supportes hundreds of agendas , that why they give it 1000/10 and called it : MASTERPIECE
And anyone who disagrees is a "bigot."
I've yet to play it myself. Did watch Jacksepticeye's playthrough, which I thought was good enough to get a gist of the story, as I felt he was pulling punches of his emotional kneejerk reactions and gave a levelheaded wrap up at the credits. My isssue with the narrative: Last of Us Part 2 should have been all Abby. We should have spent wayyyy more time with Abby first, THEN reveal who she was, one of Joel's victims (by proxxy) and then have a Part 3, starting with Abby finding Joel and killing him. This way, the emotional gut wrench of who is right and who is wrong has been belabored appropriately, as opposed to giving us a 20 minute intro of who Abby is and why her dad was so lovable (he saves animals, you guys!) My two cents. I still think Tommy's flip from getting shot in the theater and pleading to Ellie to bury the hatchet and to call her revenge quest good, and then a few minutes (in-game) later coming back with a vendetta request was narratively jarring.
Jacksepticeye was such a refreshing playthrough to watch after playing the game. So many others played the game for 10 hours straight and wonder why they were miserable about the game.
My only problem with that is that Abby’s narrative would only go so far before people start guessing that her traumatic background is tied to one of Joel’s many killing sprees. Hell after she killed Joel in the game, I figured it either had to be because of Joel saving Ellie, or something Joel did to them during the first 20 years of the apocalypse. I just feel like doing a solo Abby story first would only take people so far before they immediately realize this is building up to her killing Joel.
100% agree about Abby. Except I would’ve put her betrayal and Joel’s murder at the end of part 2. Part 1 ends with the murder of Abby’s father and part 2 ends with the murder of Ellie’s “father”.
But hey, we got what we got 🤷🏻♂️
Every beloved franchise is a big disappointment now these days so I guess we just gotta get used to it.
No offense but this is a truly terrible idea in so many ways
@@georgevelis4651 I think they took Jackseticeyes idea about putting Abbys part first but then added unnecessary ideas to it. How do you feel about putting Abbys segment before killing Joel? In part2.
I’ve played the game twice, once when it came out and again a few months ago and here is the feeling I had towards the game.
1) I understand the part of Abby wanting revenge and traveling all that way to do it,(Which realistically after 25 years of this going on, don’t think many people would be able to travel that far of a distance, another gripe I had with first game). But like many people have said in other comments…the game tries to force you to like Abby so much when she is pretty bad to even her friends and is willing to kill people in her group pretty quickly because she has a change of heart. I mean Mel and Owen pretty much call her a POS and she doesn’t really take anyones advice and just does what she wants and if people get in her way then she takes them out. Not to mention she doesn’t even question the thought of Joel and Tommy showing compassion and saving her when they could’ve easily left her to die, like she probably would have. And at the end she is wanting to kill Dina to make Ellie feel bad, and I was like “did you just completely forget all the stuff you went through and not understand what revenge will do to someone”. Won’t even get into the whole jacked Abby, because of her character model thing cause that was a total different discussion.
2) Thought Ellie’s section was fine. I don’t really ever get caught up in the killing of NPCs/enemies in games cause that what they are there for. And clearly all of them don’t affect her just the main characters of the WLF. So can’t really credit that to the writers because you can be ruthless through the whole game but only affected by those people. Not to mention the writers def intended for Ellie to be the “antagonist” of the game. Could’ve of given us the option to leave the find Abby again, knowing it would ruin your relationship. Or how bout give us the option to kill Abby or at the very least ask Abby why she did what she did. Ellie doesn’t even know why honestly she killed Joel…and let’s be honest if Abby was in the kind of condition of being malnourished and strung up on beach that long, she def wouldn’t have been able to fight back, let alone get upper hand. And Ellie def wouldn’t have been surviving a piece of rebar through a kidney and stomach🤦♂️…would’ve been happier if they both just died there on beach and telling Lev what not to do.
3) Did not mind Joel’s death and was expecting it(maybe not so early). And hated the bait and switch they did to make it seem like they were on a journey together. That was one of my major issues is that they lied(even Troy Baker did it as well) so had your expectations of at-least partially playing them together thrown out the window. I understand the “shock” value they were trying to capture from the first one with Sarah’s death so early, but doesn’t work when you’ve already spent time with character from whole other game that you arbitrarily kill off with no explanation behind it until 12-14 hrs later.
4) should’ve either recut how the two stories played together back and forth rather than one after the other. Or in my honest opinion, think the story would’ve been much more received as playing as Abby and her group without knowing who they are and gaining their trust only to find out that Joel and Ellie were there and sabotaging the entire community and explaining what happened to her before killing Joel so he would know and Ellie would know. Then she could maybe fight with her demons a little more when wanting to get revenge on Abby and her group or end the game with the death of Joel from Abby and the WLF dismantling the whole community and Ellie vowing revenge for Joel.
I agree. This game was just a miserable slog. Playing as Ellie is watching someone you know slowly into misery and revenge. pushing everyone they love aside as it slowly destroys them. Not fun.
Playing as Abby is annoying and frustrating. She does stuff like sleep with owen despite pushing him away and KNOWING it would hurt him and Mel, or attack Joel despite the fact that she would be dead if Joel didn't save her, or killing members of her own faction with no remorse for a kid she barely knows. that and tons of other stuff just confirms that Abby is a bad person. I cannot feel sympathy for her.
the game does not really force you to like Abby or Ellie for that matter. It just shows you that we as humans, who consider ourselves being on top of the foodchain, are still susceptibe to become completely unreasonable driven by our animalistic instincts such as anger, fear, love, hate or revenge for that matter. Quite frankly the only really likeable character in part 2 was Lev and mainly cause he is still a kid who has not chosen to be born in these horrible times and this world is being forced on him in all it's horror.
I do t understand holding on to a grudge for 25 years. She heard her dad talk about killing a little girl to "potentially" find a cure and heard that it already failed once before so her not ever coping with the fact that someone came to save that girl is too immature for me to ever find relatability with her (which is the main thing the game was banking on). I dont even care about joel personally but i cared even less about abby and her shitty friends one whos a two timer and the other whos going on missions with a pregnant baby in her stomach. If youre going to get rid of well rlwritten characters at least replace them with good if not better characters. This game tried so hard to be "the first game to do this" that they stopped working on trying to be a well written game.
@@kingpin3690 it’s a different thing when you’re a kid and you live through a traumatic experience. You don’t need to go too far - just think of majority of child abuse victims… in regards to 25 years… I’m pretty sure It’s only been like what.. 5-6? Abby is in her very early 20s if that
I would reply to everything you say but I see enough in your first point to realize that would be irrelevant.
Ellie and Joel literally walk across the US in part1, how would it be any more difficult in a Humvee going only a state or two?
Also, yeah, Abby killed some WLF she didn't even know. TO SAVE A CHILD!!!
Another thing? Who gives an actual fck about her muscles, don't be that guy.
I just started my third playthrough for this game now, the story is... alright, a lot of weird choices were done, but I do love everything else, the gameplay, lighting, environments, audio and more. Would have been my game of the year if it wasn't for the story
This is quite exactly my stance on TLOU part II. It is an impressive, immersive mind-boggling experience. That's for sure. Doesn't mean I like every part of the story, or every plot decision, or every character development. They just went too far trying to say "revenge is bad, and Joel wasn't a hero. You'll come around"
You’re wrong this game wasn’t made by the same people… Almost half the staff quit & the game went though a complete revision during development
Bruce and Amy left or were pushed out, and 70% of the staff quit.
@@miller-joel I remember Naughty Dog getting some heat for how Neil over works people funny how that got hushed up
@@CynicallyObnoxious He's co-president of the company now, so it worked out pretty well for him.
@@miller-joel True unfortunately that’s how the games played but Naughty Dog as a studio has fallen from grace especially with all that agenda pushing involved in the Last Of Us 2
@@dev8582 "part II" didn't do so well, and now the attempt to re-re-sell "part I" has not worked, either. Will they learn, or will they keep blaming the fans? I don't see any indication they are ready to take responsibility.
I liked the part where Ellie stabs the pregnant girl to death. Then after murdering hundreds of random strangers, including the poor girl playing a PSP... Ellie doesn't kill Abby in the end.
It was SOOOOOO good. Like eating a double bigot Sandwich.
You didnt notice how klling the pregnant girl affected her? Or how Abby spared ellies pregnant girlfriend? Wow, must have played the game upside down in spanish
@@Flipitmixit The only person Ellie failed to murder, was the only person who deserves to die. Abby killed Joel, Jesse, shot Tommy in the head, and threatened to kill her pregnant girlfriend. It was great that Ellie murdered hundreds of random people, throughout the entire game without a second thought, then stopped when it came to the only person who deserves to die. Again, it's a perfect game, 10/10 dead pregnant women, would play again!!!
@@mangaas Who said Abby "deserved" to die?😂😂Because she killed another murderer with a golfclub? No one is better than anyone, theyre all pieces of shit. Ellie was gonna kill Abby to make the nightmares stop, then noticed they stopped without her having to. Datsit, revenge doesnt bring peace. Who cares that she killed random people along the way you've been doing that for 2 games with every character you play as why is it a problem all of a sudden😂 That being said you dont have to like it, to each theyre own brother
just because a choice is deliberate doesn't make it a good choice. i know what they wanted from abby. i just hated that choice and the game suffered
No game/movie/show has EVER made me feel RAW emotions like The Last of Us Part II. That alone makes it my favorite game of all time.
I don’t even have a problem with the narrative. It’s all about the pacing. After finishing Part 1, this is painfully evident. It takes far too long for part 2 to start, and takes far too long to finish. After you finish Ellie’s first part and switch to Abby, it really starts becoming a chore to play. They don’t mix up the gameplay at all and they expect you to play for another 10 hours and retread story beats after the first 10 hours. As a result the second half is far less interesting, and it makes the game a chore to finish. Part 1 takes 10 hours and you want to immediately go back in for a second play through because of how well it’s paced.
EXACTLY.
The game becomes a chore and Abby is unlikeable. I really did not mind she killed Joel because I can understand.
But all this combined let to the perception that people were not smart or artsy enough to understand.
Only degenerates with no expectations of quality watch The Walking Dead and the Baseball Bat guy is the protagonist. You know what the difference is. He is fun and likeable. While Abby is boring and annoying.
EXACTLY.
The game becomes a chore and Abby is unlikeable. I really did not mind she killed Joel because I can understand.
But all this combined let to the perception that people were not smart or artsy enough to understand.
Only degenerates with no expectations of quality watch The Walking Dead and the Baseball Bat guy is the protagonist. You know what the difference is. He is fun and likeable. While Abby is boring and annoying.
EXACTLY.
The game becomes a chore and Abby is unlikeable. I really did not mind she killed Joel because I can understand.
But all this combined let to the perception that people were not smart or artsy enough to understand.
Only degenerates with no expectations of quality watch The Walking Dead and the Baseball Bat guy is the protagonist. You know what the difference is. He is fun and likeable. While Abby is boring and annoying.
EXACTLY.
The game becomes a chore and Abby is unlikeable. I really did not mind she killed Joel because I can understand.
But all this combined let to the perception that people were not smart or artsy enough to understand.
Only degenerates with no expectations of quality watch The Walking Dead and the Baseball Bat guy is the protagonist. You know what the difference is. He is fun and likeable. While Abby is boring and annoying.
EXACTLY.
The game becomes a chore and Abby is unlikeable. I really did not mind she killed Joel because I can understand.
But all this combined let to the perception that people were not smart or artsy enough to understand.
Only degenerates with no expectations of quality watch The Walking Dead and the Baseball Bat guy is the protagonist. You know what the difference is. He is fun and likeable. While Abby is boring and annoying.
I tired to go back and play it again a couple weeks ago and after the scene where Joel dies I realized I just wasn't ready to go back down this emotionally draining road. it's just too much...
That's why I've stuck to just watching gameplay for the sequel. Don't think I'll ever try to play this game since the remake is on the way. New animations and quality of life features without the story of 2.
you're weak.
Only because of Joel? You're missing out.
didnt care about joel
i only like arthur morgan
but yeah i agree with you
about joel’s death
the whole vaccine doesnt work to be honest its a 20 year too late
@@VannywiththeFanny I already beat TLOU2...I didnt miss out on anything
Playing The Last of Us Part 2 for the second time to get the platinum trophy made me really appreciate the game and be more open to Abby’s story. After which I started to understand Abby and care about her story and the characters in it more. Still wasn’t the biggest fan of her but I was able to understand her.
Same here. I had to separate myself from the game for 2 years and after I platinum it this past June, it went from a 7/10 to a 9/10. I still feel the Abby section drags a bit but the story is quite solid in my opinion.
The main problem was that just part way through the game, i said to myself "i have lost my interest in this, and i dont know how to feel about it" the main reason honestly, has to do with the ending of the first game, i was interested in where the direction of the story could be heading, but then another story got told that i couldnt get into, and its not because its dark, my favorite pieces of media are all gritty stories, but in the end, im just neutral to it all and it feels weird to experiance.
The writing is shit
That’s just not true. The second game directly follows through the ending and consequences of the first game
@@TheSCIOnce what i mean is the relationship between joel and ellie, it was only explored through one flashback and never again, it was the main thing i was looking forward to when i finished the first game, and to see not a single thing developed through the two of them in the second game was my reason why i thought that honestly.
@@TheSCIOnce This has nothing to do with OP's comment, and I don't see where they stated that Part II doesn't explore the repercussions of Part I.
@@gatorslayer2388 I don’t believe that’s true either. She’s on a revenge quest for his murder throughout her entire play through and there are multiple flashbacks throughout that highlight how their relationship had evolved between games.
I think the biggest issue is that the creators want to tell a "violence begets violence" story that forces the player to confront the dismal consequences of casual slaughter, yet it continues to offer lots of casual slaughter in the gameplay *as entertainment*. The story is at odds with the gameplay - you can't expect players to care about Abby's father and friends when the game continues to offer up hundreds of nameless NPCs to kill.
Perhaps it could have worked if there was an option to reject violence, like in Dishonored, but not when there's an unavoidable body count as high as a Call of Duty game. It doesn't work as the player was just doing what the game required them to do. Spec Ops The Line did something similar that actually did work.
Months late, I know, but spot on. A non combat option would go a long way to mitigate a lot of the issues, that exist with its theme and the actual gameplay and story beats.
For example, you can't progress, if you don't kill Abbey's dog and you kill her friends in a cutscene, so you're put on a path and given no option to change or impact the outcome.
Exactly. Another point. They really want us to feel bad for killing the pregnant and to think Elly is horrible.
Dude we just killed 150 people in 3 days. And at least Elly is likeable
Exactly. Another point. They really want us to feel bad for killing the pregnant and to think Elly is horrible.
Dude we just killed 150 people in 3 days. And at least Elly is likeable
Exactly. Another point. They really want us to feel bad for killing the pregnant and to think Elly is horrible.
Dude we just killed 150 people in 3 days. And at least Elly is likeable
Exactly. Another point. They really want us to feel bad for killing the pregnant and to think Elly is horrible.
Dude we just killed 150 people in 3 days. And at least Elly is likeable
You’re a brave man for playing this again Luke
the second time is really a lot easier than the first ngl
@@kowxley1793 that goes for literally anything honestly
I’ve watched your entire critique four times for this game. I love your understanding of the emotional weight and messages and themes to the game. It’s why I got the game and played it in the first place. Most emotionally draining, intense story I’ve ever experienced at a narrative level in gaming.
It's mostly closed minded little kids that only see in black and white hate this game. The games a masterpiece and very successful
@@rayromano6249 it's funny how all of the tlou2 dick riders say the exact same sentence when praising it. Without fail. It's a good game in my opinion but you guys stay calling it a masterpiece lmao.
@@rayromano6249 sure buddy💀
@@Kukisei lol gonna cry?
@@rayromano6249 Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but yeah you're correct to some extent, TLOU2 is simply a very misunderstood and unfairly criticized game.
I must have played the original The Last of Us 20 plus times on PS3 and the remastered version on PS4 and I could still play it again and again. The same thing can't be said about the Last of Us 2. I beat it once and have no desire to play it again.
Oh wow. That's crazy. Ive ways found the first game to be the most mediocre slog I've ever played. (Minus the opening cinematic) and I loved the second. To each their own I guess
Honestly same. I feel like the first one is HIGHLY replayable. I’ve never even thought of playin The Last of us 2 again because it’s such a slog to me.
@@redneckreviews3016 Unpopular opinion but I actually agree.
I was really bored by the first one, but it did grow on me.
The second I liked it but thought the story was a lot more stupid but not as bad as everyone screams over.
I wasn't bothered by Joel's death I just wanted to see what they had in store and the answer unfortunately ended up being "not much".
@@Stabzcell97812 I quite enjoy the second one. But the first one. Wow. What a slog. It was predictable and Ellie. Omg. What an annoying character.
@@redneckreviews3016 Who doesn't hate brats amiright?
The problem with the game wasn’t Abby or Lev. It’s the fact that it’s the most predictable revenge plot, and promising a game with Joel and Ellie. That was just fucking evil. Also the devs deserved better :(
I love this game. I love all of it. I was crying really hard when I saw Joel die for the first time, just 2 hours in on launch day. It felt like I lost someone. Which I did, but it made my pursuit for revenge even stronger and I kind of felt the emotions that Ellie had. I remember the first encounter when we meet the WLF in Seattle with Dina. (The first human encounter in the game). I actually felt pure hatred for them, and on my first kill I said «fuck you». It felt real.
I felt all the emotions that Ellie had throughout the game. But on the last mission, after having played as Abby half the game, I actually wasn’t super angry anymore. I said to myself «please don’t kill her, just let her go»
It felt so pointless at that point to kill Abby, and I think that’s exactly what Ellie felt.
I was left staring at the end credits, just processing the whole story.
I have since finished the game three times. This game worked for me. I loved it. I understand it’s not for everyone, but I am super greatful I got to experience it. It’s definitely one of my favorite games of all time.
exactly what i felt! abby started this sibling or even parent relationship with lev and with ellie experiencing loss of her father figure why would she continue the cycle for lev who had nobody besides abby.
i felt all the emotions you felt too i felt anger and then just like ugh i don’t necessarily want to kill abby now and hurt lev who doesn’t deserve that.
it’s an amazing game and i loved reading that someone went on the exact same emotional rollercoaster i did.
@@MandyRazon It’s truly a masterpiece. And honestly, over time, I’ve grown to love Abby.
@Minicrom I get what you mean, but I thinks really just up to personal taste. I for one, had no issue with it.
I was left fairly annoyed by a few of the story choices, but mostly it was the level design that bugged me. I felt they could have gone so much further with more open zones- Ellie and Dana's journey on horseback through the ruins of the city was a particular highlight for me, especially with the environmental storytelling of the bank heist gone wrong.
You never played, there's no Dana character
@@Darkdirewulf obviously it's a typo haha
I love the bank heist gone wrong backstory, as well as the Rat King backstory. Idk they just stand out
I thought that was one of the worst parts in the game lol
@@Labyriiint I kind of agree. It was really cool the first time I played through but on replays it’s a bit of a chore
I don't hate Abby I hate the writers.
Y
What's absolutely stunning to me is how so many people just don't get the damn point of these games despite the developer spelling it out over and over and over again.
No, morality doesn't disappear in the apocalypse. Just because you play as Joel for 10 hours doesn't, in any way, justify any of the horrific shit that he has done in his life. Tess understood that. Tommy understood that. Ellie, when she got old enough, understood that. Literally, everyone understands that. Wiping away a firefly compound, killing a bunch of people, murdering a scientist, and stopping humanity's only chance for survival isn't ok just because Joel lost a daughter once and can't handle losing Ellie. The game is crystal damn clear about that. What Joel did was indefensible. The game did a good job of creating a story where you could understand WHY a character who do the unforgivable, but it was evil nonetheless. Joel got the death he deserved, as painful as it was. Ellie, surrounded by her new community and friends, deciding to abandon all of that and go on a path of violent revenge is also wrong. Joel's arc would never be acceptable in any moralistic framework in a non-post-apocalyptic world. Neither would Ellie's in TLOU 2. And that's the whole damn point. Apocalypse or no apocalypse, abject evil, and wonton murder of other people are still wrong. Every single person in this universe who went down that path suffered a brutal end. They're both anti-heroes. And like all anti-hero protagonists, the audience is supposed to figure out that they're anti-heroes. You can play as them, you can empathize with them, and you can even hope they achieve some semblance of happiness, but you shouldn't ever justify or defend what they've done.
In fact, you can even think of the first game as a riddle. "What would it take, in a post-apocalyptic scenario, for someone to have the key to humanity's salvation and to purposefully destroy it"? And then work your way back from there. They created the conditions where the character could bring themselves to do that, and where the player could bring themselves to root for it, (which is incredible in its own right). But that's still the wrong damn thing to do.
You kept saying the people who didn’t like it just hated playing as the murderer of Joel but that’s not why I personally never warmed up to Abby. I found her to be a pretty boring character who was just being put in emotional situations for the sake of sympathy.
I also found the supporting cast around Abby to be generally dislikable and forgettable (her love interest was cheating on his pregnant wife??) I hated how they would randomly kill off people around her for no reason and never talk about them again. ie. manny. Most of the time playing as abby felt like an awkward slog and the real killer for me was the ending.
We spend 20+ hours on this journey for Ellie’s revenge and at the very end she decides “nah, nevermind.” She goes home to her family gone and to top it all off, losing a finger took away her only way to remember Joel. I hated how they did Ellie so much
That's why I feel like they should have let's us play for two hours with Joel and trying to reconcile with Ellie and expanding on characters/relationships there, and then 2 hours with Abby exploring the WLF and scar stuff expanding their characters and giving them more personality and more reason to connect with them. Switch back and forth until the end where Joel and Abby meet have Abby actually state the reason she wants to kill Joel in front of Ellie and have Joel give the "I'm sorry I screwed you over, but if God gave me a second chance I'd do it all over again." Then kill him or not depending on the direction the directors wanted to take it. And PT.3 could be Ellie tracking down Abby. Abby having to take down the rest of the WLF so her and Lev are safe, and possibly Ellie forming a temporary truce with Abby to take down the WLF because for some reason their after both. Then at the end have that same final fight, and you could even throw in Dina leaving Ellie because of her lust for vengeance.
But Dina could stay with her too but I feel like if they took their time got you more involved with Abby and made her a more rounded character then her killing Joel would still be heartbreaking but not as hate inducing I don't think anyways
My opinion none of those are problems, it’s a real development of ellie’s character that she didn’t decide to end Abby’s life. They’re both girls who hate eachother until the end which is a solution to me. There’s nothing to gain from getting revenge unless you just want that satisfaction
@@nernoision i just don’t think that’s reasonable, when all you have left is the satisfaction of killing her and it’s been your mission this entire time. Why would visions of Joel make her decide not to kill the one who took him? I don’t think there’s anything wrong with her wanting revenge, especially in that situation. But they shoved the little kid into the mix to make it make some kind of sense
@@tonyflamingosucks6590 I don’t really judge the games story, I liked the game for what it was. that’s me and I don’t have a problem with what your saying. Most of it made sense to me, that it wasn’t in Ellie’s heart after slaughtering all her enemies to see even the killer of her father figure dead and Abbys companion Lev sit in grief. Doing the revenge ending is out of selfish ambition or vain conceit rather in humility, aka valuing the lives of others above yourself. Not the best explanation but it’s what I can say here
People didn’t have a problem with Joel getting killed, it’s the way he was killed. No build up, with huge plot convenience, and extremely early into the game.
There was nothing redeeming about the journey, and every reasoning behind these decisions were manipulative to force player’s perceptions of the antagonists as being saints and justified. The game wasn’t being transparent and letting the player make their own judgments and opinions like in the first game, in this one on the other hand, it’s very clear what they wanted you to think. Holding your hand through the story and basically beating you over the head with it’s one tone messaging.
Which is ironic because the whole excuse is “depending on your perspective anyone could be perceived as the villain or the hero and therefore both sides will never see eye to eye if they only think from the perspective of their own circle, that both sides have their justified reasons and that the only way to move on is to forgive because just like it takes one side enacting revenge to continue the cycle it takes one side to end it” even though Abby’s side of the story is extremely one sided with the nuance of that duality being absolutely absent.
If instead, they treated both sides equally, and let the player make the choice, it would’ve been a lot more powerful, because it would fall on the player’s perspective entirely. Whether you felt that Abby’s viewpoint was justified or not, and if Ellie’s perspective was justified enough to enact revenge or to let it go.
But again, this would only work if they had built up tension and had proper character development in a more traditional structure, not a constant back and forth in time, so that when the player is conscious about an imminent threat coming, when it does come, you feel powerless because like most real life encounters, whilst you might have the thought at the back of your head that something might bite you on the ass for past mistakes, it often happens when you least expect it.
Which from a narrative standpoint would still make sense and be more powerful as the player would go through the same notions and could track the entire narrative to that breaking point and see why and how it happened and in doing so, conclude that it made sense. That would be so much more conflicting for the player. Instead, what they did just made me kill Abby the first opportunity I got to let her die in gameplay.
Let it all out son🥹
Kinda like real life lol
To be honest I kind of liked his death exactly for the reasons you didn't like it. Kind of reminds me of the brutality of real life and how sometimes they're just isn't a buildup. Happens
@@gatewayrealtor664 yeah the problem is that makes for terrible storytelling. Best stories generally dramatise realistic events, that’s not just through dialogue, physical expression, but also in pacing, plot twists, buildup. Most real life events are a lot simpler than any media that it’s based off.
Like that’s just how people work, most affective stories have all these artificial elements because they take and immerse us into fantasised scenarios. They’re often more horrifying and twisted and have an element of suspension of disbelief whenever the hero has plot armour.
They’re these heightened ups and downs. Now, that doesn’t mean you have to go overboard in either direction, it’s all about balance. The Last Of Us takes itself seriously by really immersing you into a pretty realistic environment. And the first game especially made it clear through clever writing, scripted events, gameplay and nuance in storytelling that it’s a serious drama, with serious consequences. And it was partly immersive because you felt the constant lingering of danger from all sides even if the characters got out of unrealistically dangerous situations. They were believable ENOUGH.
Joel’s death on the other hand isn’t believable, not because it’s sudden and doesn’t have build up, that criticism falls more under the execution of storytelling, in terms of how it was conveyed from a STORY perspective. In terms of the realism aspect, it too falls short, as from a logical standpoint, Joel shouldn’t have let his guard down, and shouldn’t have said his name (Tommy too). The popular defence for this is “Joel got too comfortable and confident in Jackson.” Except that too makes no sense, first of all, he’s already had 20 years of experience in the first game, and as seen through flashbacks in part 2, their patrols in Jackson were still very tense.
Hell even before Ellie sets out with Jessie and Dina, they make a point to highlight how Joel always troubles them with making sure they are prepared and check their routes (because this is an apocalypse after all…) which further reinforces at the start of the game that this world is dangerous and that Joel is overprotective for a reason. So for him to switch his entire attitude in a blink to a bunch of armed strangers is in direct contrast to what was literally just established.
It’s hypocritical which shows a lack of consistency from the writers as well as the lack of their awareness and understanding of what’s already been established both for the lore and the characters.
I don’t have a problem with the act of killing Joel itself being sudden. Again, they could’ve shown the viewer that there is a plot against Joel being formulated and that this impending doom is lurking and could strike at any moment. Then during an intense encounter, they could have the player in a moment of relief and banter, showing the characters being happy to survive another crazy situation and talking about whose going to buy who a drink or whatever. And then Joel could literally get headshot out of nowhere, or just ambushed and tortured to death.
The difference is, one, you establish for the viewer that there is a threat lurking (which only the viewer knows, not the heroes, which creates tension as you start to fear for their safety each time they let their guard down or feel safe as the protagonists themselves aren’t aware of the danger, which still ticks the box of it being realistic), you then make tension build up through gameplay as you don’t know when YOU the player will encounter this threat and how will the characters adapt to it without your input (as this is a linear story), and then once it does happen, you still feel helpless and surprised as the game could easily fake you out with a moment of relief only for it to turn into a horror scene and the characters also sharing that element of surprise.
Which again, would satisfy anyone who enjoyed a surprise death and meet the criteria of characters not knowing. Which again, I never mentioned anything about the characters knowing, it’s about the viewer knowing, since we’re the ones experiencing the story.
That example treats the characters with more respect, as it maintains the consistency of the characters not being stupid or simply throwing out any survival lessons they accumulated for decades. And still showcases that it’s often in moments we feel most secure that something unexpected and shocking can happen. The difference is, one treats well established characters as idiots, and one doesn’t. It’s that simple, again, I don’t really care that Joel died, but rather how they executed was sloppy from every point of view, it didn’t make sense for the lore, it didn’t make sense for what’s been developed, it didn’t make sense from a logical stand point (backed by again what’s been established).
That’s all, ultimately, my biggest disagreement on this matter is more to do with people that think this is how you tell a good story, it isn’t. Yes art has plenty of ways to be achieved/expressed, but to every form/medium, there are underlying truths. And when it comes to writing, this game did so much wrong by ignoring those truths.
@@gatewayrealtor664 sorry for the long reply lol
The game doesn’t run at 4k on PS5. It kept the 1440p res of the original ps4 pro version. The only update the next gen version has is it now runs at 60 fps. This still makes it the vastly superior version to play.
Yea there is no way a PS5 can run TLOU2 at 4K Native 60fps when its just a 6700XT + 3700U
I think you missed the mark on a lot of the criticism. A depressing story is never a problem, if done correctly. It was horribly executed. Horribly. I don't understand how you can be emotionally drained from this game. After Joel dies, most people just don't want to play the game anymore. It leaves the player angry and bored. Not because of the story, but because of the writers butchering one of the most beloved characters in gaming history in a garbage way and so early on in the game. It is insanely disengaging and then you have the player play as the murderer. Like jesus christ. The writing went from a near 10 to 2. You're not on the edge of your seat, your off it and doing something else completely.
I think you mentioned this a lot in previous videos, but I just want to back up the idea that the story relies WAY too heavily on coincidence. This was my biggest gripe with the game, and as the story went on, I just got more and more frustrated with the reliance on unexplainable events. By the end of the story, it felt like EVERY SINGLE thing that happened ONLY occurred because the writers wanted a big beefy fight scene at the end, not because that's what would of happened given the context of the characters, their motivations, and the world. I think the santa barbara section was the nail in the coffin, I just felt like the lead up to their big fight on the beach was so forced, by the time I got there I didn't even care who won.
If character's actions are not believable, and random events are too common, you create a narrative that simply doesn't feel real. In some games, this is okay, but only if the world is established as one that isn't grounded and true to itself. The last of us was created upon the idea that the characters and world were relatable and believable. But TLOU2 dismantles that and throws immersion to the wind.
This is of course just my opinion, but i'd be curious to see how many of y'all thought similarly about the game.
I completely agree with you, that was my biggest issue with TLOU2. It's like the writers forgot they weren't working on an Uncharted game.
@@SydBarker right?!?
So the numerous times joel and Ellie get saved just in time by another character in part 1 weren't coincidences?
There are always coincidences in stories so that they work because realistically life isn’t like that and the more realistic you try to make something the less of a story it becomes. I disagree with you that this game has too many coincidences but I will say the one that was really bad was Joel’s death. The reason Joel’s death didn’t work is that doing an impactful moment like this needs to be seamless and having Abby just find Joel like that was done poorly. At least have Abby out in the freezing weather searching for a patrol and almost die until Joel saves her. Have Abby and Joel stuck in the storm together and show Joel has changed a lot since the first game so when he gives up his name, he doesn’t look dumb to people. Abby gets her kill but can feel guilty about how she didn’t giving more depth to her character. Im not saying I can right a better story because I liked the story but I will only agree with you in that case.
When people point out “coincidences” all of them can be exampled logically. When Dina saves Ellie after she is taken captive, people complained that Jordan should of killed Ellie there but the point was he wanted information from Ellie. Also it’s not hard to believe Dina track the WLF to the school to save Ellie. That’s one popular example but look at any story ever. Stories can’t work without coincidences and the only bad one in the Last of Us Part 2 was Joel death but if you can show actual examples of what you are describing that would give me a clearly understanding of what you meant.
@@hopelesslyoptimistic8231 Are we still with the same lie? Joel NEVER SAYS HIS NAME, IT'S TOMMY WHO SAYS THE NAME. Joel doesn't trust Abby, THEY DON'T HAVE A CHOICE WITH AN HORDE FOLLOWING THEM THAN TAKING THE BEST CHANCE. What did you want that Joel do? "Oh, no, you don't look reliable, we'll stay here and get eaten by the infected, better that than finding the shelter where your people is".
I can't believe this is still a topic of conversation, people really struggle playing this game a second time meanwhile I'm on my 100000th play through lmao
It’s because most people have such an incredibly dogmatic way of thinking and unlike most media we consume nowadays, Tlou 2 strove to destroy our black and white, hero and villain way of thinking but I Neil Druckman overlooked the fact that folks are emotionally immature and dumb:(
Edit: if you were to weigh up all the awful acts that the main characters did you would find that technically, Joel and Ellie are much more awful people then Abby. Joel said he used to be on both sides of ambushes, killed a lot of innocent people, murdered countless fireflies, killed Abby’s dad and doomed the human race to no cure not only just to survive but to fill his selfish desires and his love for Ellie and Ellie Murdered All of Abby’s friends and Alice and a pregnant Mel (albeit unknowingly) whereas Abby simply murdered Joel and Jessy also destroyed her life in Seattle to rescue two seraphite kids. A lot of Abby’s actions are a reactive whereas Ellie’s are active. So we have to ask ourselves, why are we actually mad about Joel’s death? From a logistical standpoint it’s a good thing for the verse but it’s because he was put infront of us first. To anyone who is thinking about re playing TLOU2, please try to detach yourself from the black and white, bad and good, hero and Villain way of thinking and observe these characters as simply people like you and me trying to get by and I promise you you will have a much more captivating and unique experience with the game:) (sorry for spelling mistakes haven’t slept in almost 24 hours)
This game should be deleted from existence
This guy does not get it, Ellie in the original never touched on whether she would be okay with dying if it meant a cure could be made, so that level of ambiguity made the conflict even more compelling. We don't get an answer on whether Ellie with her death if it was in her hands, instead she's in her literal death bed. The surgery is neither a guarantee for a cure, as well as the fireflies intentions with a possible cure. Joel is put in a tough situation, a man put to the test, aware of how brutal and unforgiving the world is, the man acts to defend his surrogate daughter who he grew to love. That's an awesome story dude, and by the end it isn't clear if Ellie knew Joel was lying or not but she chose to live with it and go with Joel to Jackson, the ambiguous ending leaves you thinking and being critical about the characters' decision, that's awesome.
Ellie may not have explicitly said that but she did give hint that she would do whatever it takes to get a cure even if it meant that she would end up dying. In Part 2 she states it explicitly. And here is the thing, Joel knew better than anyone that Ellie would sacrifice herself which is why he never even contemplated telling it to Ellie. What Joel did was barbaric but we understand where he is coming from and perhaps that is the beauty of the game. And Ellie had her doubts which is why she asked joel to swear which Joel did. Ellie, a 13 year old girl, put trust in Joel. It was all bound to fall apart if Ellie were to find out which happened in the sequel.
Let me tell you something about life, sometimes you get put into difficult situation where there is no obvious choice and whatever you do will be criticized one way or the other.. That is the beauty of part 1. Was the surgery a guarantee? Not really. But it was the best chance of fireflies to fabricate a cure.
Part 2 is a natural sequel of Part 1. It was always supposed to be tied with the first game and it did. And doing so it pissed of people but here is the thing, some stories are brutal.
@@akramhossain4678 a young teen saying she would do whatever it takes is not the same as putting it in her hands and saying would u die for a possible clause. Example, people say they would do anything for money, love, objects etc. But if the devil or someone who could make it happen said to u ,"okay, u can have one of those things but u must die", everyone changes their tune, the stakes are play it's no longer an exaggeration.
@@carmineglitch but we do find out that she was willing to sacrifice herself, don't we? Ellie was already suffering from Survivor's guilt with the death of her friend. She wanted her immunity to have a meaning.
@@akramhossain4678 no, survivors guilt?? I'm an EMT and I can first hand tell u emotionally people say they are willing to do for whatever, put when put in the position ur survival instincts kick in, Ellie isn't Jesus, she isnt throwing her self to the crucifix for mankind, it's silly to think she would. She's upset that her friend died and she didn't, and shares guilt for that. It's different if we see how she would handle the choice if she were concious, but it's way crazier and a better story she's not conscious and Joel saved her from death and it's extremely good and bad that he did saver her, it's a very trivial outcome, which makes the whole ending even more memorable, that's pretty dope
@@carmineglitch being an EMT means you are dealing with people in desperate situations. Ellie's mental state wouldn't have been same and she had a long time to think about what she was willing to sacrifice. Regardless, it's said in the second game that Ellie wanted to sacrifice herself. Whether she would have changed her mind at the moment is moot.
I've played the game 5 times all the way thru. I just can't deal with the pacing issues. I do not want to go on that five hour trip as Abby to get the surgery equipment for that girl that got her arm smashed. And the character of Abby, I get it: she was the doc's kid and takes revenge by killing his murderer, she bonds with Lev, her group of friends gets killed leaving her with no one to come home to except the Wolves who she realizes she doesnt want anymore, and she chooses to be with that boy instead. ...coulda just used two or three hours of gameplay and some cutscenes to explain who she is.
...and never mind that grandiose finale with that battle in the Scar camp, Scars vs Wolves. That part was cartoony and out of character of what TLOU's world was. And, it was a conflict that I had no emotion invested in, except for impatience, because Abby nor the Scars just weren't that interesting to feel for.
My second playthrough was to try and understand the story better cuz my first left me puzzled. After the second playthrough I searched for interviews with Druckman and I found a two hour Zoom call with him, a major writer and the actors, and that made me understand the story (...doesn't that mean that the game didn't do a good enough job at telling the story if you need a fcking explanation of the writers?). The third, fourth, and fifth playthrough was just to see if I actually LIKE the story. And, no, it's just a bad story: major pacing issues due to delving into unimportant character archs (Abby's, mostly. Ellie and Dina's blabbering on and on about trivial shit was a drag as well).
Just, bad. And disappointing.
Also, I played New Game + each playthrough. So why when I play Encounters my characters don't have all the upgrades that I obtained in Story Mode?
I hated playing as Abby first because all I wanted was for her to die, but as I went on into the game, I realized any one of us would have done the same thing in her position and she is just a girl trying to become a better person. It was sad how Joel died but it was good for Ellie to have that flashback when she was about to kill Abby, and not kill her because, it shows character development and how revenge doesn’t always fulfill that emptiness inside. Abby learns that and lets Ellie go and later on Ellie does so too. AMAZING GAME
Even the FBI approves of this game
EXACTLY. Jesus, this take isn't so hard to understand. Everyone is stuck on this bUtT mUh jOLe aN eLLy 🥴🥴🥴bullshit lol
my problem was they should have let us play as Abby first get us attached and cared about her before she killed Joel then it would have been received better not kill Joel in the first 20 seconds of the game. then it would have really been a confliction
Ellie lets go yes abby nahhh she only let ellie go cuz Lev was there you can tell by the camera and maybe yes abby let go but not that moment definitly
@@grandvianna8551 nobody wanted Abby on the first place lmao.. cry about it
Having a pregnant woman go out on patrol that puts, her, the baby and the rest of the patrol in danger because she is not as fast or capable when you could have sent one of a thousand other people in her place, is just one of the stupid things that occurs in this game.
No pregnant woman ever goes out on patrol in the story.
@@krasmasov6852 You must be blind. Mel is pregnant and does go on patrol with Abby and others.
@@nuke7138 They're not going on patrol. That was a transport truck to get them to the FOB. Abby and Manny would then deploy from there while Mel stayed on site to work as a medic.
@@krasmasov6852 She is given a weapon from the armory and can barely get into the back of that military vehicle. She has no business being in that situation.
@@nuke7138 Yeah, you get a weapon when you go outside. Pretty standard. And the vast majority of the time, the drive from the stadium to the FOB is uneventful. The space in between is all WLF territory. The only reason they saw combat at all was because Seraphites slipped past WLF lines and ambushed their truck.
But you'll be happy to know that Abby actually agrees with you.
I still love this game. It gave me one of the most emotional experiences in my personal history of playing video games. It was also utterly exhausting and even though it’s been a few years I’m still not quite fully geared up for a second play through unless I have something like Bluey on in the background
Cant disagree with you. It was really exhaustive, but that only means, how well the narrative structure was for the game. I myself want to play it the 2nd time, and I definitely will (maybe after a year :P)
I hate this game because it's emotionally manipulative by screaming you are a bad person when the game forces you to do bad things like when you were forced to kill a dog in a completely railroaded section only for that dog that show up in a flashback.
@@mariobadia4553 So you're basically telling me you hate the game for succeeding at what it set out to do?
@@mariobadia4553 its not telling you that you're bad, its showing you that there's two sides to every story. In most media you only get a fair non-biased point of view from side, so start to believe that everyone you're fighting is complete and utter irredeemable evil.
In this game you see both sides though, from one side you see a friendly and loyal guard dog, from the other you see a beast that will kill you if you don't kill it first. Life isn't as cut and dry as just good vs evil, both sides can be good and bad.
@@mariobadia4553 these aren't even your words lmao
My biggest issue with the game is that the story itself assumes the cure that would of been extracted by Ellie would actually work. In reality, the chances of it actually working would be incredibly low.
Ellie also can't forgive Joel for saving her because she didn't have a choice, forgetting that the fireflies weren't giving her a choice either. That game never touches on this, it just wants demonize Joel.
Actually, in the final scene, Joel says that if God gave him a second chance, he’d do it all over again’, implying he’d still do the same thing and save her. Ellie right after gives her speech where she says she can’t forgive him, but “would like to try”.
There’s an interesting analysis of this from TH-cam. Essentially, Joel says he’ll choose to save Ellie each time, even if it meant losing a vaccine, because Ellie being alive is more meaningful to the world than any vaccine could.
I really don’t think the game ‘demonises’ Joel. If anything, it humanises him by opening him to making faults and mistakes that any other person would make during an apocalypse. and Ellie certainly was open to forgiving Joel because she explicitly states she would.
We don’t actually know the outcome of what would have happened. Sure matpat made a games theory of why it wouldn’t work but that doesn’t really mean anything for the story. As far as anyone knows, there was just as good of a chance it worked as it if it didn’t.
The problem is its not a virus, it's a fungal infection, so a vaccine wouldn't work; vaccines are for viruses.
@@jonenrique This.
Everyone who hates on the story always says the game is demonizing Joel. But it's only demonizing him if you assumed he was an angel. The game isn't demonizing him at all. It's just being honest about how others in this brutal world would react to his decision.
Yep. Its because neil hates joel
One thing I think that really harmed tlou2 for me was the lack of good companion characters. When I think of the first game, I think about not just joel and ellie, but of bill, the brothers and tess too. Whereas in the second game (which is like double the length) I remember dina and lev and thats it. Very few of the side characters end up mattering in any real capacity other than to be massacred by ellie.
Lack? There's literally MORE good companion characters in this game.
@@VannywiththeFanny cap
@@Silver_Wolf-141 It's true tho my man. You know it, and I know it.
double cap
@@Silver_Wolf-141 Denial is a beautiful thing.
This game gave me some incredible moments of joy most games could never offer and it also gave me SO MANY moments of dread , fear, and hate that most games can’t do either many times I hate that I was even playing the game but I can’t forgot how powerful this game was
Yeah, you can even find TONS of video essays and posts titled: "this game changed my life".
Huge numbers of people are DEEPLY moved by this story because the narrative is so existentially compelling, by humanizing one of the most easily dehumanized characters I can think of.
If your mind can handle the discomfort of testing your association bias, at least.
@@ResoluteDeicide christ you people are pretentious as fuck
Bro you fully need to use grammar
@@ResoluteDeicide Exactly. Unfortunately we underestimated how many people couldn't handle it, or refused to even try it based on prejudice.
@@mikes5637 yeah, totally astonishing to me, personally. Just shooting themselves in the foot, ultimately.
"Last Of Us 2" is the "Alien 3" of the "Last Of Us" franchise. Pretentious people love it. Most of us do not. We wanted Joel to live, just as we wanted Newt to live. Don't hide behind fancy high-art excuses about teaching the audience a lesson. Don't patronize us or condescend to us. We are not here to be lectured, we are here to be entertained. Playing as Abbie in a Joel-less game is not entertainment, it is something to be endured. No thanks.
If u hate the game because Joel dies ur mind must be close shut so nothing new that challenges ur prospective can ever enter.
The thing about making the game about making you uncomfortable about what Joel did is that I already felt uncomfortable about it. At the end of the first game It didn’t feel good to kill all those people but you understood why Joel did it. Which is why I think the first game had a better story. The whole game builds up Ellie’s relationship with Joel so that at the end you feel conflicted about doing what he did but still feel he had no choice.
TLOU2 tried to make me care about Abby after showing me how she killed Joel.
Idk if this would improve the story but I would’ve just ran Abby, story alongside Joel/Ellie up to the point where they finally meet without letting us know she’s looking for him. Maybe mentioning Abbys dad but vaguely talking about his death as one could interpret it as a zombie death. Would have them meet Joel the same way as they did but only halfway through the game after the player already cared for Abby. That way when its reveals Joel murdered her father the player will be conflicted about what to feel.
Oh not a bad idea
But thats not the narrative Naughty Dog wanted. They wanted to show how blind the hate can be, just like love. They wanted you to not know Abby, and let the hate rise up within you. Thats the whole purpose of the prologue. And then, they wanted to shift the perspective of not just the character but of the player themsleves. They wanted to challenge you to start liking or even empathize with someone you so blindly hate. This is the narrative ND wanted. To challenge the players, and make them change their perspective. In any way though, they succeeded in telling their narrative. For ex: If you empthasized with Abby, ND succeeded in telling you that there are always two sides of the coin. If you couldn't forgive Abby or refused to play as her, ND still won by telling you just how blind the hate can be. It was a win-win situation for ND, which is why I think haters still cant make peace with it.
There are some developers who can nail Ludo-Narrative Dissossance and then there is Naughty Dog, who uses Ludo Narrative dissosance as a "tool" to tell their stories.
I didn’t care about Abby until the last mission of the game with the fight with Ellie her character changed and it was all about revenge for Ellie, I think Ellie should’ve ended her there in the water she straight up just murked joel with a crowd very cruel even tho the things he did didn’t make his death right by her, her revenge should’ve had more consequences but I guess losing her friends and loved ones was punishment enough, as Ellies revenge only caused her to lose a finger losing the only connection her and joel had, after all revenge is a fools game- Arthur Morgan
@@piyush0092 The problem is that Joel was completely justified in his actions, while Abby wasn't. It really is as simple as that, at least in my perspective. I just didn't care about Abby and do not feel in the slightest that ND won. Actually, I think they do not understand the ending they made in the first game, thus having this game no impact on me other than being completely frustrated by it.
@@piyush0092 perfeclty said
I think the thing that made the first game so interesting was Joel and Ellie's relationship, the first game was more of a character driven story, the plot itself is basic and not deep and the world and lore isn't told through it, it's the characters that told the story, that through their lens the lore and world was explored, Joel and Ellie made the game and to kill off one of those two and completely change Ellie's personality to a more serious one it just felt unlike the first game and to me the closet that felt like it was the museum flash back scenes
Joel and Ellie's relationship is what made the 1st game great, Absolutely. The 2nd game caves Joel's head in and then moves forward with a lesbian love story that I have absolutely no interest in playing. Mind you I've got no problem with Lesbian love stories(Carol was a great movie), but this was shoehorned in there by Neil Cuckman and his feminist buddies. Totally forced and not genuine or organic at all.
@@Mattblaze1477 part 2 is ellies story, and she is a lesbian. so if you got no interest in her relationships you got no interest in her
relationship which literally is a minor plot part on the grand scheme of the game
@@Mattblaze1477 You sound ridiculous. You know that right? Tell me, would you speak like this in front of people? Like, in public?
@@Mattblaze1477 absolutely fucking braindead comment. Sounds like you frequent the last of us 2 subreddit too much
I remember when I didn’t have any access to PlayStation cause I’m a PC fan, and I had to watch play through, I chose pewdiepie and I remember thinking how mediocre this game is. Last year I borrowed a PlayStation 4 pro, and it was the first time I got to play this game myself, and it is nothing like watching some TH-cam play through, in order to enjoy the game I had to immerse myself into the world, and it is sooo beautiful and well made, I could stare for hours looking at this world, and when I tried grounded mode it was actually even more immersive and you are actually scared, scared that there are no resources on you, scared to be jumped on, it’s so realistic
Uhhhh no. I can’t say they made us love Joel and that why fans were upset. It’s because Joel was in the right. Using the power of common sense tells us the vaccine wouldn’t have worked. And some girl is so focused on her dads killer in a world where there are clickers and runners sprinting around killing people by the seconds. Just makes no sense. Coming from someone with an Ellie tattoo. First games my favorite game of all time.
I’m a fan of TLOU part 1, but I am disinterested in trying TLOU part 2 because the developers and Sony tried to deceive people in the marketing. They made it seem like Ellie will be the focal character and hid Abby in the marketing. Made it seem like even they didn’t have confidence in their new character and story to sell this game.
They didn’t want to spoil anything
When I got to the part where Ellie wants to go to Santa Barbara that was the most difficult. I immediately became the Deana character trying to talk her out of it.
I went through a rollercoaster of emotions with this game. At first I hated it for what they did to Joel then eventually ended up loving the game overall and playing it through multiple times. Once I got to the final scene between Joel and Ellie my dislike for it completely flipped. For me that final scene hit hard because of everything I went through both through gameplay and emotionally. In the end I forgave the creative choices and realized I really enjoyed the game. It's not the game I wanted but enjoyed it non the less
Hate to be cringe and paraphrase the Dark Knight,
"Not the game we wanted, but the game we deserved."
(By "deserved" in this context i mean TLOU2 is worthy sequel to the first game, and we deserve to have our perspectives on Joel and really the whole story as a whole.)
The story was utter garbage the only reason you feel that way is because of the second to none gameplay and graphics along with the immersion they created. If that same story didn't have those amazing developers it would have been the biggest flop of all time but they saved it
@@2nerC9 Just go to therapy, dude.
@@2nerC9 Learn how to respect other people's opinion, buddy
@@2nerC9 you need to play some real games lil bro, lay off the horizons and the assassin's creeds AHAHAHHA
Your argument about the big twist for the plot point being unique is false. Nier Automata did it back in '17 and did it TWICE. The difference being one wasn't in your face about it.
The issue is how they executed it in this game.
They COULD of made it understandable from the get-go from abb's perspective but decided not to, probably for that shock value and hopes it would pay off in their message but the issue is it did the polar opposite, while I was indifferent when playing, I went back to watch others play through her sections cheered when she died during gameplay or would purposely fail events to have her die. Is that excessive and petty? Yes. But it goes to show how much of a nerve it struck with people and even at the end people still didn't justify her action. Yes, obviously they do it later in the story but by that point the player has already made their decision on her.
The problem is that killing Joel is like killing master chief in halo.
Though I thought it was pretty obvious what I'm trying to say, some people are confused. I'm not comparing Joel and Master Chief on their personality, story, and overall CHARACTER I'm comparing them on how iconic they are in their game. As in when you think of Halo, you think of Master Chief. Just like when you think of The Last of Us you think of Joel. So killing them is gonna leave a bad taste in fans of those games because noone wants a bootleg or worse character to replace them.
Imagine starting up God of War Ragnarok, and at the beginning they have Freya kill Kratos and you only play Atreus and Freya for the rest of the game....
I don't think its similar at all, tbh. Halo is a power fantasy and Master Chief is the most capable person on any planet. He has no emotions and he's damn near invincible. Joel on the other hand is a normal man with a tragic past in a dark, horrible world where people die for little to no reason at any time. I just think those are two VERY different character types
@@ghengis423 What I mean is that they are the face of the game they are the iconic character of their game, the main reason to play the game. I'm not trying to compare their CHARACTER with each other.
For example killing Master Chief would upset a lot of fans and therefore stop a lot of them from playing Halo because noone wants a bootleg to replace Master Chief. Just like noone wanted Abby to replace Joel.
Then wanted you to like his killer
@@calvinwilson3617 And dislike Ellie.
I remember being incredibly disappointed when the game launched. I was super excited, being a huge fan of the original (having finished the game well over 12 times on the PS3 and PS4 + the Platinum on the PS4 Remaster), so I was pretty hyped.
While I avoided seeing any of the leaks prior to the game’s release my hopes and dreams slowly began to crumble the more and more I played the game. It was a shame to find that my favourite video game character died in the most horrific way. And after all of the controversy and “bold” decisions, the game just wasn’t for me. I hated that they made Joel the villain and completely misunderstood Ellie’s character and Abby was, by far, the worst protagonist (antagonist) I’ve played as in a video game.
I get what they were going for theme-wise, but it was executed poorly story-wise. Extremely convoluted and filled with so many coincidences and flashbacks. Felt like it was a first draft at times. I give kudos to the graphics and animation team…but they were under a huge amount of crunch, not cool.
So, in the end, TLOU Part II just wasn’t the game I was hoping it was going to be. It was a shame because it was my most anticipated game of the generation too…
My thought exactly, very well put! Excellent comment, thank you for this!
joel was not made into a villain and the first game had coincidences too, that kinda happens in every game in fact
@@evryfckinnameistaken your comment is valid dude. For sure games and films have coincidences in them but there are more subtle or clever ways to portray those coincidences. In my opinion, I don’t think TLOU 2 did that in that matter. For the case of Joel, I felt he was made out to be a villain in most regard. However, like any piece of media such as film or games, they’re subjective - that was just my interpretation.
True!!!
@@mikadietz3686 ellie was pissed at him for denying her the choice she made to sacrifice herself, that's as far as him being portrayed as a "villain" goes
I’m optimistic with how the show plans on tackling the second game’s narrative. My biggest gripes with TLOUP2 are things that I think the TV medium has potential to
Fix, like some underdeveloped characters and can completely avoid like tedious pacing/gameplay. I hope it can provide a refreshing take on the story that can better tackle some of the ideas that I felt were handled in maybe not the best way.
…And it was all in service of saying “Hey, violence is bad, guys. Also, did you know the bad guys are people, too?” That utter lack of substance and the blatant attempts at manipulating the players’ emotions in favor of a very narratively unbalanced conflict is what will *always* drag this game down. I never failed to understand Abby’s motivation. The problem is that the game is vapid and pretentious as hell.
It's not about violence is bad, it's about grief. Watch the last cutscene with Joel that plays near the end of the game, thats the most important custscene that tells you what the story is about but it seemed to go over everyone's heads
@@Handonforehead
Yeah? And the game is saying what about grief? What is it exploring about grief? Grief only exists to serve a theme of revenge in this game. That’s it. It’s no deeper than that. And the theme of revenge is explored as deeply as simply saying “hey, revenge is bad, guys. It’s futile.” It’s a visceral experience that I’m sure draws some big emotions, which is valid in it’s own right, but narratively and thematically, the game just isn’t very good. It’s shallow and it thinks very highly of itself. It’s very overrated on that level.
I take a very different approach to this game in terms of opinion.
I LOVE dark stories. Depressing? Give me. Meaningful? Give me.
I however didn’t gain the feelings I was searching for when playing this game. I instead just felt very underwhelmed. As if the story was just filler to prepare you for the gameplay. I loved the first game and it’s story, but in the second one, I just didn’t care.
It feels like every major plot point was made after they had already decided where they wanted to go with that specific scene, and that’s a bit of an issue .
Kill Joel. Fine. I love the guy, and killing him can be a powerful motive. Kill him in a brutal way? Yes please. But what they did during the scene, and before the scene was just not well thought out.
Witnessing the scene, I didn’t feel a damn thing. I was just like, “ok.” Joel is a favorite of mine, but I felt nothing during his death? Maybe that’s just a personal issue, but with how divisive this game is, I’m positive it’s not just a me issue. Abby, is insufferable as a person. Not because she killed Joel, but her personality is just awful, and typical. Ellie is insufferable. She’s a dickhead for almost no reason. Yeah, I know, she’s suffering, but Ellie went through a lot in the first game and kept her head. It’s as if they changed her personality, as well as Joel’s just to accomplish a narrative they want.
It feels like they didn’t mind that they were making a SEQUEL. I don’t mind the tone change, but when you make a direct sequel, you need to continue the story directly. The last of us is a story about Joel and Ellie.
The last of us II feels like a story about the suffering of Abby, and why Ellie and Joel are not good nor bad, which we already know?
But it’s not all bad. There are many amazing moments within the game, and I feel like without the first game, it’s actually really well written on its own!
I don’t dislike the game. But I feel as a sequel, it’s awful. On its own? I’ll play it any day. I don’t have blind hate. I don’t care that they are progressive. I just wanted better consideration from the developers.
I feel you on all of that, really felt like they knew what story they wanted to tell, and instead of trying to frame it within the previous game’s established story and characters, they had to retroactively change events and assassinate characters to get it to happen (Joel and Tommy being so open about everything about them, despite being hardened survivors for a good example). I wish I could’ve liked this game cause everything other than the story is superb imo.
@@CartrKillsGrunt That’s exactly how I feel mate :)
I disagree very heavily with you and recommend that you watch the two hour video essay by Noah Caldwell-Gervais where he explains why The Last of Us Part 2 was the perfect sequel to The Last of Us Part 1 and why doing anything else would have been doing the franchise an injustice. He lays out his points very well and addresses your obviously flawed issues with the game.
@@Mike20we watched that video a while ago, have been a fan of his for a while, but had to disagree. When I look at what happens in the game it just requires mental gymnastics to reach the conclusion that this is the only way it should’ve gone. When the Fireflies are shown all throughout the first game to be barely competent and almost certainly not going to be successful because of said incompetency, then the sequel says they were altruistic and borderline saviours of humanity it makes me seriously question whether or not they wanted a sequel with the same characters or the story they wanted to tell. By all means enjoy it, I really do wish I could. Just noticed on another comment you copy pasted that there as well. Any particular reason you’re doing that instead of just saying what you disagree with exactly?
@@CartrKillsGrunt I just copied it twice to two people that made a similar comment. I just don't have the time or the will to write whole paragraphs and essays right now and linking to video is much more efficient and gets the point or even better across.
Let’s be honest this game from a technical standpoint is absolutely impressive, little things like enemies shouting their comrades names when they go missing, facial animations, death animations, the environments are made with such an intricate detail. Also I really enjoyed the beginning part of Seattle where it was kinda open world it felt really interesting seeing Naughty Dog’s take on it. My biggest gripe with this game was the pacing, story and character development, I simply couldn’t give a damn about the new characters they felt so bland and they didn’t add anything to the world that made it more engaging instead Jesse and Dina made the story feel like a teenage drama, the Abby part sucked not so much because you had to play as Abby, what truly got me off from the experience was the precise moment you had to transition from Ellie to Abby, it was during the most high tension moment in the game and having to switch characters in that precise moment destroyed the anticipation and tension I had to see what would happen next, it made no sense to do it there it took me like 5 days to reach that point and I was really immersed in the experience but after that point I just didn’t want to play it took me another month to finish the game and I rushed through it like in 3 days just to delete it to be able to play Ghost of Tsushima. Also from that point onward I felt like character development stopped for everyone and the story started to become so unbelievable. In the mission where the pregnant girl accompanies you I was like wtf is this how can this 8 month pregnant woman be running around climbing and jumping stuff or the part where Abby meets the 2 kids Lev and Yara I think correct me if I’m wrong. When she meets those 2 kids I was wondering why the hell in a post apocalyptic world and setting a kid’s biggest problem would be not identifying as his/her own gender it felt like the game was trying to jam in my throat some sort of political viewpoint or every time Abby or Ellie get in a tough situation the plot armor comes to save the for example when Abby is about to kill Dina and she doesn’t just because Lev told her not to come on that is just lazy writing if someone kills all your friends would you forgive them just like that don’t think so. Don’t know if it’s my idea but this game feels like it was written by a lot of different people the plot is way to convoluted and unrealistic.
Even tho I overall agree with you. You kinda lost me with your first point. Enemies shouting random names when you kill some of them is the most lazy and surface level mechanic that I've ever seen. Even when enemy begs you to spare him, he just dies after a few seconds or shots you. There is nothing imersive about it, you can't interogate them or just let them go. They always die. Assassin's Creed did this better in 2010.
@@gamefan987 You have to be joking
@@joaodavid1369 was it worth it ?
@@joaodavid1369 He's right. The game has much more impressive quirks and features than that.
This was my takeaway:
I have no problem with the themes being explored, I have no problem with trying to show nuance, but the fact that Ellie never found out WHY Abby took "revenge" is baffling. Ellie lost everything, and though we are meant to believe she had growth, it seems almost impossible that a person would have this growth without reason to reflect or empathise.
Showing past conversations with Joel is all well and good as a way to draw parallels, but they can hardly be effective if Ellie doesn't know the stakes.
I find it really hard to believe that Ellie's beliefs/motives would change for arbitrary empathy, "oh Joel must have done something pretty bad, that's the only reason why somebody would want to kill him". If Ellie's revelation could have been this simplistic and only brought about by her own actions (and not a combination of reflection and empathising) then it would have happened maybe an hour into her revenge quest, when she's killing her 5th 'victim'.
"It's a game about revenge and how utterly unfulfilling that pursuit really is". This is a lesson I had to unlearn just to get in the front door of the game (otherwise I would be complaining about Ellie seeking revenge in the first place), only to have them reteach me the lesson and act as if they were so profound doing so when in reality it felt like kindergarten to me. I always felt like there would be something more and there wasn't.
Wow. That's not even close. That's like saying Titanic is about a ship sinking. Revenge was the plot not the story.
@@patsayjack402 I am just quoting what this guy said in the video.
"You can't judge a game without playing it."
But you can judge the story of a game, by just watching the story.
ND even endorsed a tv series - so it's not like the story is crippled without the gameplay.
"The level of hatred made no sense, it was out of proportion."
ND wanted to evoke strong emotions in the audience. In that, they succeeded.
"The main critique is that they killed Joel and made you play as his killer."
No, the main critique is how sloppily they killed Joel and how clumsily they tried to have you sympathize with Abby.
"The choices were intentional."
Yes. They attempted a triple somersault. If they had stuck the landing, it would've been amazing.
Half the population thinks they pulled off a masterpiece - but the other half thinks they landed on their face.
When I think of the last of us, I think of that scene from the first game with the giraffes. No matter how screwed the world is, we always find something cheerful. I thought that scene was very impressive because there were so many depressing moments and the characters/audience needed something to focus on for a little bit. Those scenes were lacking in part II wich were a shame. I platinumd the game and my opinion is that they should have cut Abby's gameplay out of part II, changed the climax and put her story as a dlc in the PSN store. I understand her actions and I know that Joel ain't a holy saint, but I just didn't care for her at all.
The flash backs were close to those cheerful moments, but not nearly long enough if I remember.
Abby had a great cinematic moments, but she played like a looser joel, which is how he'll probably feel come the remake.
The giraffes in the first game was one of the best cut scenes in gaming history. So memorable.🦒
@@peachcup4413 those flashbacks were a nice touch, but didn't work for me because I knew he wasn't coming back kiddo
So you just want to cut the game in half because of Abby lol
I kind of wish Abby was Ellies mother. A mother pregnant in the apocalypse, or whatever the theory was, seeing the ugliest people have become. New cults, zombies are more wide spread. Constant danger of losing a child. A mother daughter relationship in a way.
Meanwhile Ellie is out to kill those who killed joel. We see a mother protect her child only for it to waste it's time on revenge, and soon forgiveness. More tragic but a better idea imo
Absolutely loved Part 2 and cant wait to replay the Part 1 remake with all the Part 2 improvements in 74 days as of typing this (but whos counting) . My wife (a non gamer) watched me play Part2 and she was in awe the entire time, asking me when I'll be home from work to continue the story on a daily basis lol. Having met her only a few years ago she has not seen a playthrough of the first game so I'm looking forward to that the most, also curious about her take on the which game/story she liked better.
Never quite understood the hostility towards this game, there are so many forms of media where people don't agree with the story or a character death but the uproar about Joel was something else. I personally understood both Ellie and Abby's side of things, we were biased toward Joel and Ellie only because we developed a sort of relationship with those characters, but had Part 1 been about Abby and her dad whom then gets killed by some random dude (Joel) we'd be biased towards Abby's side.
The gameplay, animations, gunplay , AI, characters, story etc. etc. was amazing to me, I especially learned to appreciate it more and more after playing other games that reviewbombers supposedly thought were "better" (often times just to be spiteful I think).
Two games that I often saw being hyped up at the time were Days Gone and Ghost of Tsushima, I own both and its incredibly frustrating how much potential Days Gone had but was ultimately let down with such a severe lack of polish and attention to detail that it doesn't even begin to hold a candle to The Last of Us Part 2, with the exception of Deacon I struggled to feel any emotions for the characters, they were so gutless for lack of better term.
Ghost of Tsushima was and still is a breath of fresh air and I found it so much fun to play, like a more colorful, less extreme Sekiro mixed with some Assassins creed elements among hints of other games. Yet still, not on the same playing field as TLOU II, to me at least.
Ghost of Tsushima was great but the story wasn’t anywhere near as complex or compelling as TLOU 2. Ghost got a lot of praise but anyone who thinks it was deserving of all its praise and also thinking TLOU 2 was garbage are just wrong (a lot of people thought this and made the comparison at the time).
@@kirkvanallen5202 complexity =/= quality or compelling
Anyone who thinks that TLOU 2 is the second coming of Jesus and thinks that people only like Ghost just to stick it up to TLOU fans is a problem and is wrong.
@@TheWefikus To be fair people were weirdly doing the latter
@@TheWefikus I really like both games I own them and beat them both. There was a portion of people who played TLou2 didn’t like what happened or the fact Joel died and raged at it went and play ghosts loved it which is fair and then propped up that love by comparing it to TLOU2 and shitting on the game. Most people who love part 2 still think part 1 is better and a lot of us understand it had flaws but none of its pacing flaws or small story flaws outweigh how great it is in basically all other avenues including how emotionally gripping it is.
I don't see how Ghost and LOUp2 are related. They have almost nothing in common. Which I guess might be why some people like one over the other. But it makes neither one worse than the other. Maybe you prefer ketchup, or maybe you prefer mustard, but it doesn't make the other bad - and you can have both.
The fact so many people couldn’t “forgive” or sympathise with Abby is perfect imo. As just like Ellie, no matter what they heard, they couldn’t let it go. Ellie was just broken by the end which is why she stopped, she didn’t forgive her. And neither could many players, people can be really stubborn, hence why there are so many stories of revenge. People don’t just get over a loved one dying 😂 they just don’t. This game is a masterpiece.
well said tom
Ellie went back Bc of Tommy, she was fucking chilling until the guy who didn’t want to get involved all of a sudden was all for killing abby and shamed her into it. It’s almost like they forgot about it, like the whole story was written poorly. Who knows tho, maybe it I just can’t relate to Abby the cheater, who killed all of her friends in persuit of a four year revenge plot, who than was fine betraying the people who took her in for two people she just met. Your sure are right tho, I’m sure they just Bc they killed a guy they loved. In a poorly written way too.
@@jsgdhsusx2860 i dont know, looked like ellie was gonna go back sooner or later, tommy just grew mad because of his brother dying, HIS brother
@@TheSadMusician she had some traumatic flashbacks but that’s about it, the only time she started being restless and such was when Tommy showed up. She would’ve lived with the trama happily as she could be if he hadn’t. And tommy was ANGRY before, but BEFORE he knew that maybe his brother wouldn’t want his surrogate daughter to get hurt tracking down anybody who killed him, which is why he left without her. They were even talking about leaving Abby alive and leaving before Abby busted down the door. He made a complete 180 and it was out of character. Like this whole poorly written mess. And telling you the same thing I told others, you can still like the game, love it even. Just don’t call it a masterpiece like the guy above did without looking at the sheer ammont of flaws in it.
I really think this is what some people are missing. It's a game about forgiveness but it isn't asking you to try and forgive Abby, just understand why she did what she did. Just like ellie not fully forgiving Joel, but letting him know that she would like to try because she understood what Joel went through.
The original TLoU was great to me specifically because of the dynamic between Joel and Ellie. Not only taking that dynamic away in the sequel, but then forcing you to sit there and watch while the character they are REPLACING that dynamic with literally beats the old dynamic to death with a golf club is something I have ZERO interest in experiencing. I don't care how clever Drunkmann thought he was being by taking the game down this route, it's not something that interests me, and I find it actually disrespectful and insulting to the fans of the first game.
I mean, it'd be like if someone made a Star Wars sequel that took Luke Skywalker - one of the most hopeful and optimistic characters in the franchise - and turned him into a bitter and depressing old man who had given up on the world and wanted to end the Jedi. Can you imagine?
The animations and the graphics are fantastic - without a doubt. But the story and the way characters like Ellie and Joel act, simply doesn't make sense. Especially Joel in the beginning. So revenge is bad. That's why Joel has to lose his life and Ellie absolutely everything that was important to her. Abby instead gets her revenge, gets even saved by Ellie in the end, and Ellie let's her escape with her new little friend. So the conclusion is that revenge is not a bad thing from Abby's view? Great! And I have no problem with Joel dying, but not this cheap way mainly based on his own stupidity.
No revenge is also bad from abbey's point of view. She loses all her friends and her lover and she ends up being tortured and imprisoned. Neither Abbey or Ellie are happy at the end of the game
I will say the game is nowhere near as bad as the copy/paste reviews make it out to be. I do have my own short list of complaints, but overall the game was pretty darn good imo.
I actually liked Abby in TLOU2.
I am playing the Last of Us 2 again, and personally I thought this second run would make me appreciate the game more. Nevertheless, the emotional journey is too much. When I get to play as Abby my mind keeps telling me it’s wrong, and around the end of the game I honestly just wanted the journey to end because it was too much. Not killing Abby at the end also made me angry, what was the purpose of loosing everything if you are not gonna accomplish your goal.
The end goal goes deeper than killing Abby. Ellie’s real character development was forgiving Joel for what he did, for making her immunity meaningless. To let go of her survivors guilt and to forgive Joel for everything something she was on a path to doing right before he was brutally murdered in front of her. In the end she lets Abby go when she realizes this isn’t what Joel ever wanted for her and that she can forgive him and let that part of her life go. Is it a little jarring when that revelation happens? Sure but I feel the entire journey and then seeing the glimpse of relationship between lev and Abby and how it parallels Joel and Ellie in a small way all helps to culminate in her revelation right as her vengeance seems like it’s about to come to fruition. Ellie’s story was never really about Abby it was all about her relationship with Joel and how fractured it was. At the end she leaves all of his things behind because she’s ready to let him go and move on with her life to try and be happy like he wanted and the constant reminder of him good and bad was holding her back until she finally came full circle and forgave him even though he was no longer there to forgive.
Exactly. All that loss for nothing. To the point where you have nothing to go back home to. I would get depressed if I was ellie. But the game wants you to feel like it's lesson instead. Wtf!?!?
@@kirkvanallen5202 nah man. It makes Joel having saved Ellie worthless cause she destroyed her own life in the end. She literally doesn't have a home to come back too. Sorry, but that depresses me. At least the ending of the last game makes you feel and conflicted, but understand why you feel that. This game, I just don't get what I'm supose to walk away with.
@@biggboi1025 the end of part two shows ellie moving on not alone. Rewatch the cutscene she’s wearing the bracelet from Dinah. She goes back to the house that only has Joel’s stuff to say goodbye one last time and let go. The game doesn’t spell it out but it seems she reconnected with dinah and this is her going there straight from her fight with Abby. How depressing the game was is very much what it was going for. You aren’t meant to be having a great fun time it’s supposed to drain you. It did a good job at what they clearly set out to do with the game.
I have so many thoughts to share in this game . So I just recently bought as it was in sale on the PS store, having avoided for the best if there's years as I hated what they done to Joel. But I have to say it is a remarkable game with a gripping storyline and amazing gameplay . I haven't been able to put it down . The level emotional depth that it takes you in is something I've personally never experienced in a game before . The transcendence to the Abbie section of the game hit different levels when where you connect with what you have just done with Ellie and again question your actions and where you see and know the repercussions of your actions it was surreal to me .
The difference between 1 and 2 that people don’t realize is 1 hd Bruce Straley and Neil Druckmann at the helm. 2 had only Druckmann. I would say Straley was the reason Part 1 was so brilliant because he kept Druckmann’s edgy tendencies
If u don’t like the edginess kinda taking over at points then yeah I get that
Spoken like a true politician. Right down the middle. When this game is anything but.
Luke, I love your content, but I must say that I believe that you misunderstood the reason there was so much backlash against. It’s true that there are some people out there that are against progressive storytelling in video games, but that’s not the consensus of most people. People like myself were disappointed in the game, not because of the casting choices, but because of the character assassinations and the pacing of the game. From a storytelling perspective, all the characters that were in the last of us part 1, that were also in the last of us part 2 constantly make decisions that break character, to push the narrative that naughty wants to push. For example in the first game, Tommy starts out hesitant to help Joel get Ellie to the fireflies, in order to protect Jackson, but after some time he changes his mind, and decides to take Ellie to the fireflies. In the second game, after Joel dies, he starts out trying to persuade Ellie not to go to Seattle, because it’s not what Joel would have wanted, but leaves Jackson anyways. Then later in the game on the 4th day of Seattle on Ellie’s side, after torturing and killing wlf for 4 days in a row, he just decides to stop out of nowhere and to go back to Jackson with the rest of the game. Then later when Ellie and Dina are on the farm, and Tommy has lost almost everything. ( his brother Joel, his wife, his sight on his left eye). He just decides out of nowhere that it’s okay to start killing Abby again, and guilt trips Ellie to go on a revenge quest and destroy everything she has, and do something that she doesn’t want to do anymore. This character assassination, happens to Tommy, Joel, and Ellie, just to fit a narrative that destroys the rest of the game. The rest of the game is a 10/10, it’s just when you have a fan base wait almost 7 years, and ask them to pay for a game that is about $60 to $70, but have the story and pacing written by a middle school teacher, and then blame it on people being homophobic, people are not going to be happy. But besides that I love your videos, keep up the good work.😊
Perfectly said 👍
Making a story that isn't fulfilling made the entire game feel pointless. The story and everything we did to reach the end was for nothing but more loss.
The game is a flawed masterpiece. I know that doesn't make sense, but its the only way I can describe it.
Your not very bright
All masterpieces are.
People just love to throw around the word masterpiece