Bro let it go ITS A SHIT GAME...with bad, lazy and nonsensical writing ...and most of all the WOKENESS in it killed it. Its a shame the game of the year awards were rigged because of political bias, otherwise would had Final Fantasy 7 remake or Ghosts of Tsushima won game of the year in 2020
@@tanelviil9149 Which part? Ellie being gay? She was gay back in 2013 in the DLC but hey, there wasn't "wokeness" in the conversation, so nobody gave a fuck. Crying about wokeness is more obnoxious than the screaming lib meme.
I think a Japanese reviewer (idk the source) had the best description about TLOU 2's narrative; "It's about what's right and wrong, from the people who think that they're always right."
The game Luke is describing around 1:00 is basically Papers, Please and a lot of other indie games. There's a surprising amount of people who enjoy that kind of stuffs.
Honestly, the same death scene could have been received a million times better if they actually built up Abby to have you care about her BEFORE that scene. I still wouldn't have liked it, but at least I would have felt torn on the situation. The way it's currently set up made me want to let Abby die at all encounters and actively cheer for her downfall. Like in the fight against Ellie.
Definitely agree. Yet the defenders of the game would tell you that it was the whole point, to make you uncomfortable. To those people I would say that just because it was intentional on the developers part, doesn't mean that it was a good idea to begin with.
yeah but the thing is you can’t get the player to care about abby unless she does something to affect the player in the first place (i.e killing joel). if we started off learning about abby it would’ve been really confusing just playing as a random new character we’ve never seen before
@@rushil9881 Don't suppose you've played Kingdom Hearts 2? In that game we play the first three hours as Roxas, a completely new character. Of course we all were confused about what was happening and why we weren't playing as Sora. But most of us learned to care about Roxas by the time we went back to playing as Sora. This is just one example. So basically it can be done.
I disagree, because I feel like what appeals to me about the game is that I'm presented with a character that I immediately hate from the start of the game, and am then made to walk in her shoes. I feel like that's something that people hate about the game, that she's not made more likable before the action, to make us feel torn when Joel's death happens. The strength of the game for me is that it puts me, as a gamer, in a position I don't want to be in. I completely understand why people have a negative reaction to that. But for myself it's a strength, because it's forcing me to confront something I don't want to process.
A lot of the media tends to follow similar narrative tropes and tend to air on the safe side, especially if it involves a popular IP that can make a ton of money. While it's not the most unique or groundbreaking story ever, I respect that naughty dog at least tried to take a swing at something like that. I also really like that the game was emotionally intense. Whether I was angry or sad, the game at least made me feel something. The same cannot be said for most stories in video games, TV, movies, etc.
Well see why most companys go for the safe side? Because of a majority people that can not comprehend such complex story. And yes it is complex, not the entire story itself, more like how the people in it interact and how differen sides are viewed.
I JUST got around to playing part 2 with my girlfriend and let me say, holy hell is this game fantastic. The first game will always hold a special place in my heart but the second one asks bold questions about morality, forces the player to make tough decisions that they may not agree with and in my case changes how I viewed certain characters actions. The last of us is always about asking the players how far they would go to save the ones they love and the second one explodes with questions surrounding revenge, rage, justice and letting go. Acting is fantastic, looks fantastic and plays incredibly well. Easily slides into my top 5 of all time and left me stunned at the end of every chapter
I was one the people who never saw the leaks, but knew Joel was going to die. There are many complaints I have with the game, however the most serious offender to me is the way the game consistently failed to make me care. I didn't find the need to make things darker a problem, rather the way I could never immerse myself because I could see the story's intention and constant attempt at manipulating me, and in my head I just thought how pretentious it all seemed as the game kept failing to make me feel anything but disappointment.
Well said, I felt the same way, not to mention the pacing of the game felt like a slog with its semi open world and long winded sections without cutscenes broke up what made the first game so visceral and satisfying bouncing between story and gameplay. So when you take away the part of the game that I truly cared about and was immersed in (the story) and give me more gameplay between, it’s ultimately not working. 😢
For me, so many of this games issues come from its structure. In the first game everything flows so naturally and logically with their journey from east to west. Here, like you said characters are fast traveling all over the country and timelines are shifting constantly, which really kills a lot of momentum from chapter to chapter. The whole California epilogue really felt forced or out of place, and it was sad to see Ellie learn nothing from the previous events up to that point. I think they did an excellent job of making you feel the loss of Joel, and his absence from the game is so noticeable and it makes you connect with Ellie that much more. The problem is if you’re gonna take out your beloved main character in the first hour of the game, whatever is replacing him (Abby) has to be that much more engaging instead. And for myself, there just wasn’t enough time spent making that genuine connection with her like they did with Ellie in the first game. None of her friends are particularly likable, and even if you disagree it doesn’t matter as they’re often killed almost immediately after getting any screen time. Unfortunate that a game with so much potential and such fun gameplay and really cool set-pieces (the hospital boss comes to mind) ended up becoming such a disappointment. I feel like somewhere in there, there’s a 10/10 sequel if they had just fixed the structure/pacing and spent more time exploring Joel and Ellie’s relationship after he made that choice to save her.
Agree, I think that if the played out the story in chronological order it would have hit harder and would of given the player more time to get used to and like Abby!
Agreed, also can we talk about how bogus crying for Sarah’s death is considering her screen time is less? I feel what you felt with Abby’s friend except with Sarah, despite the game and everyone talking about how important she is. Felt like fans did most the work caring for Sarah. Also how do you feel about the Joel death fake out cut? A piece in the story cutout for dlc. That’s one thing I disagree with, it did not flow natural and logically during that part. I know this is about part 2 but part 1 has flaws that fans called perfect and as such Naughty Dog felt comfortable with making even bolder moves than cutting out story for you to pay for in a dlc.
@@youngnat Yeah I think when people get sad about Sarah it's more about what she represents for Joel rather than her as an actual character. Him having lost a daughter is such an important piece of who he is and why he is so reluctant to get attached to Ellie. Honestly my favorite scene in the first game is at the ranch when Ellie finally gets Joel to realize that she's his family now and he can put Sarah's death behind him. But I get what you mean, she is only in the game for 15 minutes lol For me that section didn't feel out of place, as they're still moving toward their goal of finding the fireflies. I don't remember feeling like they specifically took out the part of the story that happens in Left Behind just to sell it as DLC. Like to me having to play more as Ellie and go get the medicine or whatever happens in the DLC would've harmed the pacing imo, but it's been a while since I first played it so I'm not sure. Yeah no game is perfect. I think they definitely felt like they could do no wrong after the first game was so universally praised, so they really tried to do something crazy which I can respect. They just weren't quite able to put it all together
honestly, the spoilers really actively changed peoples perception of the game, i would argue. my first playthrough was unspoiled and thus the pacing and switching between characters never really felt weird but actually impactful. it was a perfect build up. upon my 2nd playthrough tho, i understood how once you know what to expect, the pacing pulls you out of it a bit. aside from that, narratively, i really welcomed the game avoiding to people please its fanbase and force you to do the horrible things and face and reflect the ludonarrative within such types of entertainment on a more inyourface-scale. especially for people enjoying or having fun killing virtual entities on a screen like a lawnmover cutting grass ... the way it took you out of such a (what i'd call) gamers obliviousness.. man it worked perfectly for me. especially since i never was a fan of the often brutal nature of SO.GOD.DAMN.MANY. video games. it felt long, seemingly neverending at times. but when it actually did, i was sad, because i could've gone on forever within that world with all its tragedy and drama that ND created for me. like a really good tv show ultimately ending. for what TLOU2 was trying to be, it did that perfectly.
It's so heavy handed with its themes that you can't help but roll your eyes at a lot of the story beats as they unfold. Abby also has a father and they both save a zebra. She totally would have sacrificed herself if she was immune. Oh, her father figure also dies. She's a piece of shit in a brutal faction that is killing other people. Oh, she finds and saves a group of kids and ends up changing for the better. Lev is Abby's Ellie and Abby is Lev's Joel. Two sides of the same coin. We have come full circle from the first game. Which is why Abby's section is the strongest part of the game because it follows the rough template of the first game. It just ends up feeling bloated and over stays its welcome. It suffers from the whole sequel has to be bigger than the first game thing. It messes with the pacing and has too many characters that it wants you to care about in a short amount of time because of the character switches. If anything the HBO series will probably make better work of the story it wanted to tell. I feel like it would work better as a season of TV than it does as a video game.
100% agree. The game is extremely unsubtle and heavy handed, which is fine. Not every story needs to be nuanced and complex. I just wish the fans would accept this about the TLOU2 instead of pretending it's some incredibly nuanced, deep piece of high art.
The last part of your essay here is a bit concerning. The first TLOU takes roughly 15-17 hours to complete, adding on an extra 2 hours for the left behind dlc. The first season on HBO sped through the story in 9, 1 hour episodes, 1 being the dlc’s story. So they basically told the story in half time. Oh, and 1 episode was totally dedicated to bill and franks story instead of Joel, Ellie and Bill. So if that’s any indication, I’d dare say that the show isn’t gonna do any justice for the second games story either. Btw, I loved the show. None of what I just said is necessarily complaining about the show. Just saying that it was an awfully fast season. My only real complaint is that I wish they’d done more episodes and given more time for the ending at the firefly hospital.
@@ariel-y-e-m Both Abby and Ellie have daddy issues. Both share the same pain of that particular loss. Both are out there trying to find closure and it's disguised as revenge. Like, c'mon. The game isn't exactly subtle when it comes to all of that stuff. The game goes out of its way to tell you that not everything is as it seems and that the actions of characters you love have consequences. The us part of the last of us, you know? It wants to show you how fucked up things are from other perspectives of people trying to survive. It's why they gave the enemies names this time around. Trying to go the non black and white route. Which kind of fails. Especially in the Santa Barbara section.
I don't really agree with the argument that the game is only bleak and miserable, there is actually a lot of lightness, beauty and hope scattered throughout. Granted, several of those moments come in flashbacks, but it's not exclusive to them, e.g. the early Seattle stuff with Dina or certain parts with Lev. The birthday flashback is possibly the most beautiful scene ever created in a video game and the final flashback, as bittersweet as it is, is also stunning. All in all, the game is going to give you a lot conflicting emotions, if you're open to it. If that's not what you're looking for, fair enough, it's probably not going to be for you. But you know, that's okay, not everything has to be for everyone. One criticism I do agree with is the pacing. There's no question the game drags in certain areas. How much of a negative that is, is going to be different for everyone. For me it doesn't actively harm the game, I don't love it any less because of it. But it's definitely there and I get why it's a much bigger issue for others.
its is bleak, flashbacks are exactly that, meaningless back padding to the bleak and miserable, that's their point as a palette cleanser but that's the issue
@@marcusclark1339 Those flashbacks are NOT meaningless lmfao. They give extremely important context to the narrative and at regular intervals so that the story slowly begins to unfold before you. For instance, the Joel & Ellie museum flashback is not, on its own, very impactful. What makes it impactful is that we already know Joel is gone, so we appreciate every tiny moment we have with him, even if it's just a memory. That flashback wouldn't carry the same emotional weight had we not experienced Joel's death prior.
@@TheOutsider69 The museum is important because its a direct lead in to their confrontation in the next flashback at the hotel. Ellie needed to see the firefly logo with LIARS underneath because it plants the seed we see blossom when Ellie gets Joel to tell her to truth after she goes through the hospital.
My biggest gripe with the game was that they tried to retroactively make the fireflies the good guys favction to make Joels action seem as evil as possible, when in reality there are no good factions in this setting. The Fireflies of TLOU 1 are like the WLF in TLOU 2, just that one is the "science"-faction and the other is the "military"-faction. You have a few good people in it, but alot of them (especially at the top) are assholes. First remember that the Fireflies had a deal with Joel and Tess to bring Ellie to Boston for weapons. A deal they never planned to abide by. Second the first thing one of their "Soldiers" did after finding Joel trying to do CPR on Ellie is hitting him over the head with his rifle. Third from the voice logs especially from Marleen we know, that they left her no choice but to accept that they kill Ellie for the brain probes. They didn´t care for either Ellie or any other of their former "patients". They also planned to kill Joel, and it was Marlene, that would have let him go, but we don´t know what orders the soldier had who was with Joel afterwards. And from what we know from the Word of TLOU, most of it has turned to shit so even if they would have found the cure, there would have been no practical way to give it to all of what´s left of humanity. But point 1 and 2 are enough to reason in universe for Joel to not trust them with Ellie, because they didn´t gave him any reason to. On a meta level everything in the first game for me pointed to that they would have used the cure as a means to gain more power, like Immortan Joe in Fury Road used water to keep control over his territory. But then again, I was probabely one of a few couple of people who were not really hyped after the anouncement of a sequel, because I found that TLOU never needed one because it had the perfect ending, like I don´t need a sequel to FFXVI. And to be hones TLOU 2 didn´t change MY mind.
That's one thing I've seen a lot of people forget in regards to Joel killing the Fireflies in the hospital. They were escorting him away from the hospital to kill him instead of giving him the weapons as originally agreed.
The issue with Joel's Death is not that Abbey killed him or even that he was tortured in it. It's the fact THERE IS NO WAY Joel would EVER have let down his guard and dropped his weapon when outnumbered by Abbey and her crew. The death does not feel earned; it instead feels like the only reason Joel dies is because the writers decided he needed to die. There are any number of ways the death of Joel could have played out that would have made sense. Instead of choosing any of them, we get this garbage scene just to be shocked and provide the false narrative for the rest of the game.
Joel quite simply did not let his guard down. You could not be anymore wrong about that. For a start, Joel did very little wrong and everything you could argue he did wrong was in line with the better version of himself than the was trying to be. Tommy told Abby their names before they had any reason to suspect she had a group of heavily armed friends nearby. The only thing Joel and Tommy did wrong debatably was telling only Abby their names and rescuing her in the first place. They rescue her because they’re better people now and they tell her their names because she could’ve been a new member to Jackson, once saved. Apart from that Joel and Tommy did nothing else wrong and at every point try to either get away from the group or negotiate with them.
This doesn’t make any sense. Joel lived in Jackson for a number of years, and recruited many stray people and groups during that time, presumably without issue. He had literally no reason to believe that this group was looking for him specifically. You guys make up a bunch of stuff about Joel in your head and then get mad.
Joel got melted down with years of living with a family and with familiar comforts. Coming from someone who was a hardened asshole, once you have a family, that shit softens you up.
Dunkey has a good point on this. He said something like, Joel is not a psychopath you meet at the start of the game anymore, he grows to care for Ellie and in fact lets his guard down, in more ways than one.
Just started watching the video, but I thought I chime in on one part you made earlier about video games as art at around 1:58 minutes in: Personally, I think if we want video game to be art, we have to embrace the idea that a video game shouldn't always have to be "entertaining" in order for it to be art. What's important is that it has to be interesting or do something that challenges our ideas about the world. We need to let go of the idea that we need to constantly be entertained in order for something to be worthwhile. I don't think TLOU Part 2 completely sticks to landing, but I strongly appreciate its attempt at doing more than just "being entertaining." I'm glad the game exists for that reason. It took narrative risks and chose to be ballsy. That takes guts.
My opinion on the whole message vs fun debate is pretty simple, great games can do both. Disco Elysium, Deus Ex, Silent Hill, BioShock, all great games that both were fun to play and had strong messages. I find it disappointing some developers believe the two things are mutually exclusive.
Narrative wise, it’s not even like part 2 is super original in the sense where we focus on the antagonist for a major amount of time. I like to compare it to things like Captain America: Civil War with cap and tony, Revenge Of The Sith with Anakin and Obi Wan, or even MGS where you even play as the villain. Stories can work where you understand the antagonists perspective, but it needs to be earned. I feel like if Part 2’s narrative was just tweaked slightly and rearranged , it could have gone from polarizing to maybe even universally loved.
Honestly just rearrange some of the chapters or even making two different campaigns like how Resident Evil games did before would have made the narrative way better imo.
I think the reception would have been much better if the game started out on that flashback of Abby looking for her dad at that zoo. The game doesn’t give you enough time to like Abby as a character before she does the most shocking and polarizing thing possible.
The problem is that the narrative is separated as if it were two separate campaigns, punctuated just before the finale. It's as if you have Obi-wan's storyline, so that just before he lands on Mustafar, there's a cut and Anakin's storyline. Or like if Tony had the first half of the movie and then Cap the second half. Well, and somehow I've never heard that Abby's half is particularly praised.
@@rali5644I think the better question is have YOU watched ROTS? Clearly you haven't if you can't see why a former SLAVE who became a Jedi only to free his mother, and then have the Jedi FAIL to free her leading to her death, and THEN have them fail to do the same for his wife, might just hold a bit of a grudge against them. Lmao
The Last of Us Part 2 is a flawed masterpiece. The only thing I could possibly say negative about it is the structure which is jarring. Other than that, I believe it is one of the more challenging pieces of storytelling I’ve ever consumed. Challenging doesn’t always mean good, but I can’t deny, it’s also made me feel feelings I’ve never experienced before playing a game. There’s something to take away from that. And I take it positively
I think the fact its jarring is what makes it so compelling. That is precisely what the developers intended. SOO many people were against Abby and rightfully so but it means that this is exactly what the developers were going for when paired with the theme of the game.
@@ThisMrMisterI agree. Whether someone sees it as a negative or not, Naughty Dog did everything with thought in it. Everything is in service of either the characters, the story, and its themes. I can’t help but commend them for being so ballsy.
I’m right with you ! And the gameplay is more fun. You get a lot more stealth options to play with and the dodging mechanic was an excellent addition. Also appreciated the expansion of exploration and the verticality of the levels
@MR.__G I love that you can play completely differently with each playthrough. Stealth through and avoid as much as you can, be John Wick and kill all with no Stealth, be up close and personal, set up traps and lure people, the list goes on. My favourite is John Wicking my way through with a bit of stealth, hiding under trucks and taking out ankles before finishing them off 😄
TLOU2 isn't a bad game because it's not an escape from reality, it's just not the right game for people that don't like those kinds of games. I also agree with your pacing critiques. Thanks for the fair assessment.
I liked begrudgingly playing as Abby, only to have my viewpoint expanded by explaining why. And later found myself enjoying her as a character and her resolve, which magnificently matched Ellie's resolve. Eye for an eye. Dad for a dad. I understand people wanted feel good moments. I, however, liked tlou2. I never once found myself debating not playing the game.
@@jordanthompson8268 No you're a cry baby for coming to that opinion without playing it lol, no actual experience means you're just a giving in to what everyone else says cos you like being part of the tribe
@@XxParadoxGameplaysxX When the game first came out I watched a playthrough with no commentary, you know, something that's been on this platform for years. I've seen the game's entire story from front to back several times. It's what has informed my decision not to ever purchase the game.
I agree that the sequel (Last of Us Part II) was probably unnecessary and the first game was already a perfectly self-contained story that didn't need a sequel... BUT... The sequel that they delivered in the Last of Us Part II is an absolute Masterpiece of storytelling and as a morality tale. It was one of the most powerful stories I've ever experienced in any medium, whether that's books, movies, TV or games. Part II had some serious balls and of course was upsetting, but it was upsetting in the way the "Red Wedding" episode was in Game of Thrones or the finale of Season 4 of Dexter was shocking with the Trinity killer. You're shocked by the story but it hits hard and actually generates emotion in you, instead of always playing it safe like almost all video games. In most games, the protagonist ALWAYS is ok in the end and always wins. And that does make it predictable and kind of boring. But not TLOU II.
To me Part 2 is a rare AAA game where it did not play it safe and took risks. In doing that though, made its flaws more apparent. Still it’s a game that does more right than wrong, and when it hits, it hits like no other game I’ve ever played. It’s a great game and very memorable for all the right and wrong reasons.
I agree, although I much prefer the story of the 1st game I give huge credits for the writers of part 2 for atleast making a story that takes risks and doesn't follow the usual Hollywood play it safe type BS
I've always said if Naughty Dog wanted the player to sympathize with abby and see both sides of the story then we needed to play abby before we play the events with Joel. We needed to see her human side and then drop the bombshell of the relationship between the characters. The way Naughty Dog introduces Abby in an irredeemable moment then asks the player to see her side was was almost narratively impossible given the emotions the player would have already experienced
you talk about these players who think Joel is a good man? really??? even the first part ended with a selfish Joel who lied to Ellie they did the right thing...you should hate Abby at first, I hated her and I wanna kill her...but than they showed me her pov and I understand her and even liked her.
@@la_engineerhat are you 12? This is the most pathetic and "woe is me" argument of them all. Joel saved Ellie's life and risked his own doing so and y'all just wanna say "Joel Lied🥺😢." Only people with victim mentalities think this way. This is why I can't stand Ellie because she becomes just as bad if not far worse than Joel in the second game and ends up doing the same things she judged and mistreated Joel over. And can't forget the part where she breaks down and stops talking to Joel because he lied. Smh. 😂 The only reason she was even kicking was because of Joel and she had no right to complain.
If the point was to hate Abby then we never should have played her if the point was to see her side of the story then we should have been introduced to her in a less incendiary manner. After that point in the story I didn’t care what her side was. 🤷♂️
My main issue is still that everything felt so forced. Joel lets his guard down so easily to get brutally murdered. Ellie kills dogs, pregnant women, becomes absolutely brutal, full of rage, combined with terrible pacing gameplay. Abby plays with dogs, cares for her friends, starts for no reason to protect two random kids which seems totally out of character for her, combined with better pacing and the more interesting gameplay sections. Then there are the countless flashbacks to give us that satisfying feeling of playing as Ellie and Joel again, even though they wanted to kill Joel off for storytelling purposes. If the writers wanted to make the protagonist/antagonist discussion less black and white, make sure to not portray the characters in black and white. Show that Abby and Ellie both can be remorseful, caring and forgiving, but at the same time also absolutely brutal, toxic and destructive.
My biggest issues were the pacing, having the split in the middle which is only surprising the first time if you weren't spoiled, and lack of agency especially with the quick time events. Joel can make mistakes, but the same thing could have happened with him not making mistakes if she saw his face. The game could have had moments with Ellie then switched to Abby much earlier hunting her father's killer. You don't realize until later that it's Joel. The audience still hates Abby, but understands her and essentially lead to the outcome. Switching back and forth earlier could have helped the pacing moving characters to where they needed to be then travel areas with very little around. The game is amazing, but the story and structure needed more of a collaborative effort than a single voice.
"Joel lets his guard down so easily to get brutally murdered." I've always seen this as a crutch people use to hate what happened to him, but it makes sense within the story. Joel in part 1 is a grizzled smuggler in a containment zone where they literally hang you for your perceived crimes. Jackson isn't that, he grew soft and comfortable since the end of part 1. He's around kids and parents, not killers. And yes, he might think someone could be hunting him for what he did to the Fireflies, but what are the chances this random group is ex Fireflies and they are looking for and found the only supposed Joel left in the world?
@@alexs1640Literally like the first scene in tlou 2 confirms how joel is still as careful as ever and its bad writing to not show it if that was the case.
This game hits hard if you’re an Apocalypse Now fan. One of the best moments in gaming I’ve ever had was leaving the arcade bloater fight feeling EXHAUSTED from surviving Seattle (grounded mode). As I drove my boat into the ocean it hit me Neil Druckman was referencing Apocalypse Now. It’s a movie based on the book, The Heart of Darkness that deals with the horrors of war, colonialism (cough cough* Scars I mean Seraphites) & how men deal with these things psychologically. Captain Willard, a vietnam soldier is sailing into the heart of darkness….deeper into the metaphorical & literal jungle of the mind. A place where no one wants to go. When I riding those waves as Ellie, seeing the silhouette of the ferris wheel in front of the lightning as the weather became demented nearly sent me. I was like omfg Ellie is sailing into the heart of darkness. I could feel her frenzy build because I wanted Abbey gone just as much as she did. If I was a TH-camr I would make a video on it breaking down the film & Part 2 because no one talks about it. My fav part about the film community is it invites a certain type of person. Someone who’s calm, reflective & willing to look inbetween the lines of art. My least fav part about the gaming community is it invites the opposite of that type of person. That’s why you see so many kids shit on this game because Joel dead me no likey Abby muscle bad. This game deserves the respect cinema gets. If you got this far….go watch an Apocalypse Now breakdown video with the knowledge of the game in the back of your mind. Connect the dots & have your mind blown. Replay the game with that new perspective if you want. One of the best video games of all time. It’s up there with GTA4, Ocarina of Time, ICO etc.
@@Diakoidris That’s valid. My wife can’t stay awake for Godfather to save her life. The thing about incredible art is it’ll always be there, ready to influence your life when you’re ready to let it in. I’ve had albums hit me in my 30’s that didn’t do anything in my teens
Luke : “It is not okay when people spread rumors and lie about the game” Also Luke: “I understand why Naughty Dog putout misleading trailers it just makes me feel icky”
@@scruz6293 my hearing or lack thereof, is not an argument... Please, do inform me why we should accept trailers lying to us, especially as Naughty Dog must have made two versions of the same cut scene and chose to show the one that wasn't in the game, in their "Story Trailer".
@@chriswihulu because it was additive to the experience of the game. Once I had context and saw why it was advertised the way it was i was completely sold. My expectations were gone and the game showed it was now capable of anything. The traditional story telling rules were out the window. And it was significantly better for it.
@@scruz6293 can you include that "context" cause it quite literally, just sound like you were shown a lie, found out it was a lie and wanted to see what else turned out to not be true. If it's about the leaks, the best I can say is, it sucks that it happened, but that doesn't make it alright to pull that kind of stunt. Game trailers are given specific descriptions, as to indicate what parts of the game they show; sneak peak, first look, gameplay, story, etc. That trailer in question, is the Story Trailer, as such, it is meant to showcase bits and pieces from the game's story. If they show scenes in that trailer, that doesn't appear in-game, in any way, then that isn't additive nor is meant to remove your expectations, it is false advertisement. If it was meant to remove your expectations and break away from traditional story telling methods, why isn't the entire story different from what is shown in the promotional material? Why wasn't it just an Abby game, since we can now expect anything that we've been told, might turn out to be false? No, they did this, specifically, to showcase Joel as if he was alive and part of the story, just so they could laugh in people's faces and say "lol, how dumb you are, for listening to leaks! Look, you can clearly see he isn't dead!" If we apply your reasoning going forward, any trailer from Naughty Dog now or in the future, must have bold letters in them in every frame, saying; "any and all scenes in this trailer, may or may not have been made, purely as an 'additive to the experience' and must not be seen as an official representation of the game".
The gameplay, voice acting, graphics etc are great, but the story and characters are bad. 1. Abby conveniently finding Joel. 2. Joel standing in the middle of a room of armed strangers, putting himself in the most vulnerable position possible. He may have softened a little, but he’s not dumb, and still regularly goes out into danger. 3. Abby’s crew letting Tommy and Ellie live despite the fact one is Joel’s brother, and the other clearly cares a lot about him and threatened you all. 4. Abby’s crew wearing their WLF patches so they can be identified. 5. Maria picking Ellie and Dina, two inexperienced teenagers to travel across the country to get Tommy, rather than older and more experienced people. Plus Ellie is the most emotionally compromised person in Jackson, making Maria’s decision even more idiotic. 6. Ellie conveniently finding pictures, including names, of all the people she’s looking for. 7. Mel conveniently hiding her belly when Ellie finds her, not to mention neither she or Owen tell Ellie that she’s pregnant when that’s something I think any parent or sane person would do. 8. Abby finding Ellie’s map she conveniently drops that leads Abby right to her. The story was full of moronic situations, and I personally didn’t like like any of the characters except Owen. And a final note, I don’t wanna play as a killer of a beloved character, let alone for nearly half the game.
@chandllerburse737 What I mean is when arriving in Jackson, she just runs into Joel, without having to do any work to find him. Regardless of if a more intelligent and sensible outcome was planned, the fact is the one the game has is bad. That’s a negative for those games too, but at least in their case the Uncharted series is a lighthearted Indiana Jones style game. TLOU on the other hand is meant to be a very serious and realistic series. If the choices and situations can’t be taken seriously, why should the players.
1. All stories have conveniences to a certain degree. Abby knows the town Joel lives in, they’re on the outskirts where Joel and Tommy are part of regular patrols and they bump into each other at the ski lodge. It’s established in a flashback later on that Joel and Tommy regularly go to said ski lodge on their patrols. It is a convenience, but it’s a perfectly acceptable one. 2. Tommy told Abby their names in the ski lodge before Abby suggests going to the house where her crew is held up. Going there was by far their best option for survival considering the circumstances. Seeing as they had saved her and she had helped them fight off numerous waves of infected, there’s no reason for them to suspect her real motives. Even if he was more cautious, it wouldn’t matter anyway because as mentioned before, Abby already knew who he was. 3. Well some of the crew wanted to kill them, but Abby and Owen decided not to and they were in charge. They said they felt killing them would make them as bad as Joel, which I get. Also, If you were part of a massive militia group I don’t see why you would worry about being hunted down by two people. If they were aware how dangerous they are, maybe that would have been different. 4. See above. 5. Maria didn’t pick them, she just knew that she wasn’t going to stop them. They maybe teenagers but they’ve demonstrated that they’re capable of handling themselves considering they can go on patrols. These aren’t teenagers who live in Beverly Hills, they’ve been living their whole lives in a tough, post-apocalyptic world. 6. I’ll give you that, but I don’t think it’s a story wrecking moment. 7. I think in a moment that hectic and emotionally charged it’s perfectly understandable that they’re more focussed on taking out Ellie than focussing on the pregnancy. Also Mel didn’t intentionally hide it from Ellie, she just had her coat done up because it was cold and pissing with rain. 8. Pretty convenient granted, but not egregiously so imo.
@@somanytakennames Doesn’t change the fact the timing is too perfect, with the guy she’s looking for just landing on her lap. He’s got decades of survival experience, he wouldn’t stand in the middle of the room, leaving him extremely vulnerable. And actually if Joel was cautious, which realistically he would of been, he wouldn’t of been blindsided by Abby and could of reacted. But Neil had to butcher his character to get his revenge story going. Except they’re already as bad as Joel, if not worse. They are part of the WLF which aren’t a nice group, that have killed innocents. They also traveled across the country and brutally tortured a man to death. Most of them, and Abby definitely considering that cutscene, would know of the relationship between Joel and Ellie, and therefore would understand why he did what he did, even if they disagree with it. Abby and Owen already talk about Jackson and how they are equipped and have a lot of people. And considering who those two people are, especially Tommy, they should fully expect that it wouldn’t be just two people, when those people belong to a well organised group living in a massive city. Nope, their actions and decisions are hypocritical and moronic. She is the leader, she is more than capable of containing Ellie like Tommy asked her to do. Instead she just lets her go, the most emotionally compromised person in the town. What makes her think Ellie of all people would find Tommy, and then say “ok now let’s go back home” rather than join him on the revenge mission. It’s ridiculous. Sending better and more experienced men who aren’t messed up emotionally is the sensible choice. Course not, but it doesn’t do the story any favors when crucial information like that just falls into your hands so easily. How is it? She has a gun pointing at them. Trying to take her on instead of saying something that could save your life or even give her pause for you to act, is stupid. It’s precisely why they both died. And it’s only raining in some parts of their location, as where they are standing it’s perfectly dry. No, but once again it’s all too neatly wrapped in a bow. If she found her through tracking, or making intelligent deductions it could make the whole thing fine.
The last of us 2 is such a weird thing for me. I started off hating the hell out of it. Nowadays I'm kind of in the middle, but not in the way you think. When someone criticizes it, I come to its defence. When someone says they love it, I have a list of reasons why they shouldn't. I've never played a game where my opinion is so uncertain. I don't know if I like it, dislike it, or just neutral.
They are BY FAR the most realistic characters in a gaming history, Imagine the world collapses, everyone fighting for resources, zombies, cannibals, etc and some USA kids made a tragedy about being missgendered and run away from their parents 😅
Not by a mile. want to see complexity in characters check out the mass effect series. look at Jin Sakai and his uncle shimura from GOT. So many more well written characters in gaming then a little Ellie knockoff
My thoughts: It had really satisfying combat/exploration. The gore system was amazing, with crazy details going into the sound quality and animations. I actually wish we had more of those big open areas in seattle, where we could explore various buildings, finding secrets etc. We had like one big area at the start of seattle, then it got fairly linear after that.
@@takemeseriouslyplx2124 I’m definitely not trolling.. I thought that area was the most boring part of the game. It was still fine though but it was just a lot of exploring and puzzles. A lot of people say the pacing was bad in Abby’s part. I actually think the pacing is bad for Ellie’s part and especially in the Seattle area. I like Abby’s part better
@@Nicholas_Vhow can it be boring if there was so much to do, hell one of the most heart worthy moments was a complete side thing in Seattle Downtown. I don’t wanna spoil but search up Ellie singing in Seattle
TLOU2 is supposed to be dark and gritty , definitely not an upbeat good time. There's an M on the box for a reason. You play for the story, the quality, the gameplay, the spectacle, and those things are leagues above the rest of the industry. I absolutely want a part 3. What we need is more developers like naughty Dog to make games for casual gamers
@@ash8244 Must be why it's one of the highest decorated games in existence right? You sound more like a jealous fanboy than didn't even get to experience it, much less understand it. It's the most emotional game I've ever played. I'd dare to argue it's the most emotional game ANYONE has ever played. It's SUPPOSED to make you feel uncomfortable. That's what casuals don't understand.
I think my biggest issue with part 2 is that the first game although having great writing and characters you actually gave a shit about was built off a foundation based around the relationship between Ellie and Joel. The writers of two forgot that although the game would’ve been good nonetheless due to how well the writing was, what made it GREAT was these two characters and how the built off of each other and were directly a part of each others arcs. So when the second game came out, and we see them hating each other all of a sudden and then the main character of the first game getting brutally murdered by someone we are forced to play as for multiple hours AFTER the fact, people were rightfully pissed off.
It's not "rightfully" if I'm not the target of the product it's not the product's fault, because whoever is has understood everything very well, I don't go under Mario Kart games and say "they're things for children, what do I do with this dumb thing?" no I just don't play it and I understand that it has more value to other people, that's why this is a "non-criticism". This industry is evolving along with the people who use it, it is stupid to give credit to these people who hate anything that is not made for them.
They didn't forget anything. That relationship had hard lies attached to it, and because of that, the consequences followed. Yall don't understand what good writing is if that's the excuse being attached to it. Joel was not a good person and he lied to Ellie after she confronted him about the truth. Everything that follows is a direct result of that. It's how real relationships work. Their relationship being good and happy is not a crutch meant to carry a franchise. People can be mad, sure, but it was deserved. Anyone trying to say that's bad writing lacks a comprehensive understanding of what character motivations are and how consequences have repercussions.
I think Joel dying made sense but it’s the forcing the player to play as Abby that didn’t. Also the constant cycle of Ellie’s revenge felt like it dragged on too long
Correct. But that's how it should be. Cause and effect. I hated Abby for what she did. Playing as her was hard. But as I saw things from her POV I started to realize she wasn't the bad guy and she did exactly what anyone else would do. If some super likeable guy killed your dad would you let him off the hook because he's super likeable? "My pleasure Joel, murder my family whenever you want". Or would you track him down and get revenge? This world is very much a revenge world and not a forgive and forget world. The second game is mainly great because of the combat and attention to detail. It's a stunning feat. But it's also great because it shows you the world from different points of view. There is no good guy and no bad guy. There is cause and effect and that's it. So by the end I was on Abby's side, even though I'm the first person who would have killed her dad to save ellie.
99 % of great writers write a LOT. Saying "the good writer write enough" is just a naive statement. It's something an inexperienced reader or a beginner literature professional would say.
My problem was never what happened but rather how it’s done. If you had two brain cells going into part 2 you knew Joel was going to die. Then he dies and I felt nothing, it just happened. That happens multiple times through out the story. Then there’s conveniences that would make CW show runners blush. There’s the 10 hour flashback right at the climax. The changed firefly context from vaguely terrorist cell freedom fighters to out right good guys that were definitely going to give everyone a fungal vaccine extracted by a veterinarian in a fallen hospital. Ellie seeing no nuance that she wasn’t asked about the surgery because she was unconscious. Joel being soft after decades of survival instinct driven living. Ellie being utterly un-like-able and unrecognizable from the first game. I mean I can go on and on. There’s the ending that would’ve maybe worked for a play or something but doesn’t fit the video game platform or the story told prior. Then all of us that genuinely thought the game was amateurly constructed were called all kinds of different bigots, that was a real spit in the face after already ruining something we were so into. There’s plenty of great sad ending, bleak, revenge tales out there and this ain’t one of em, which really hurts because TLOU is my favorite game of all time.
Game was great. It’s the story that most were pissed about. We could understand Abby’s anger but still hated her for what she did. It’s like Naughty dog gave us a million dollars with the first game then with the second game they also gave us a million dollars but also gave us Aids. I can’t be the only one that tried to throw Abby off every cliff you walked by after she did what she did.
aren't there compilations of people trying to kill Abby while playing as her, that was the case a few months after the game came out if I recall corectly?
@@baddreams123451 I mean, it let you, you just got sent back to the last save point. Same with Ellie killing Abby's dog, you have to do that in a Quick Time Event, go back to repeat the section all over again.
That depressing aspect of the game is what I really loved about it. I can get it is not for anyone but this is great to have that kind of story made that well.
The problem with this game is that I don't think the story was done well. It's such a bog-standard and easy story to do and they somehow fucked up the pacing.
To me Part 2 felt like a part 3, we should've had some actual time with Joel and Ellie post part 1, and take time introducing us to Abby her dad and their perspective of the events of part 1, leading into a less rushed properly expressed part 3
This is sooo true and I hope that this is what they do with the tv show. The game's pace as a problem and the fact that they had a character that we did not know a single thing about kill such a beloved character and then making us play as her when that was the last thing anyone wanted to do.
@txup92g33 Tommy told Abby their names. Not Joel. Also it's literally 5 years inbetween Part 1 and 2 where Joel spends his time recruiting people outside of Jackson and taking them in. If you can't believe Joel can't change in 5 years you missed the point of Part 1 where he changes completely from start to finish in just a few months.
@@misterhoobomaster All that supposed change during those 4 years (yeah it's 4, not 5) happened off screen, no one can definitively prove that such change has really happened. Ideally in a well written story you would gradually show and set up such a character change to the audience, and not let them write the story for you and just assume that it has maybe happened.
Permitting logical and narrative inconsistencies to fit one’s broader desire to like something whilst using the same failed criteria to roast something they don’t isn’t in depth analysis. It’s simply lazy
I think that while The Last of Us: Part II had a good idea for a story, the execution was so monumentally poor that it comes across as very disingenuous and very hostile to people that weren't connecting to the hemes. The whole transition to Abby at the climax of Ellie's story was so jarring and completely removes the players from the emotional beat. Not only that but the writers are telling you revenge is bad throughout the whole story but for some reason they justify Abby's revenge. I don't remember Abby ever feeling remorse over killing Joel, all she really shows is reluctance to killing Ellie. My idea for how this story should play out is tell both Abby and Ellie's story at the same time, breaking everything into chapters and alternating playing both characters. Abby's storyline begins with her planning to kill Joel and ending with her finally committing the act of killing Joel. Ellie's storyline begins with her trying to find Abby and ending with her catching up to her. This reserves the emotional beats at the end of their respective storylines and the whole theme of revenge being bad would be that much more effective because Joel's death and retribution would be back to back. Throughout their storylines, each character would show their uncertainty, Abby with following through with killing Joel and Ellie grappling with how far she is going to get revenge. It preserves the theme so much more. But the story we got was so broken and disjointed that the interesting story was so hidden behind so many nonsensical story points and confusing structure.
1:45 that is such a limiting discussion. There is absolutely no reason video games can’t be both. Either one or the other or both combined. Video games are the most interactive, and perhaps expansive form of entertainment and art. There is no logical reason to limit and gatekeep what they can and cannot be besides some Joe schmoes on the internet yelling “ I don’t want muh video games to be like this or like that.”
What I find wild, is that everyone acknowledges that this game has some of the best graphics, sound design, voice acting, and really anything that involves presentation, ever. It also has one of the best stealth combat gameplay ever. Some of the best AI ever...so it essentially is one of the best in every category, except not everyone likes its story. Which is fine, but there is no way marking the game a 3 out of 10 or something makes sense. Objectively speaking, it's at least a 7. Due to how incredible it is in so many areas.
Except it is a 3/10 or less. Everything else is just built upon what was already there, you should expect that shit at bare minimum and then to be carried up by the story. The story is so fucking dogshit it dragged it down
I almost feel guilty and ashamed or even dumb that I love tlou2 because of the controversy and heavy criticism it gets. I loved the acting, gameplay, cinematography, soundtrack, sound design, themes, tone, it’s darkness, it’s somberness, it’s humanity and yes it’s story. I do agree that it’s got pacing and structure issues, but I just can’t not love it and sometimes find it hard to understand why it got so much hate and heavy criticism. it often gets labeled as a “revenge bad” story, but I wholeheartedly disagree. I think it’s a story about grief, guilt, shame, depression, empathy, self destruction, love, hate and ultimately forgiveness.
I don't like the game at all but don't feel ashamed for liking it. Nobody but you has any right to decide what you like people telling you you're wrong for liking it can be promptly told to f*ck off. We can debate if it's good or bad but enjoyment is subjective to each individual and should stay that way.
My problem with this game is the gaps... 1) why among a bunch of militia men people would send a pregnant woman to dangerous situations for example... 2) Joel's death was rushed and he acted totally as if he was not him when he meet Abby . 3) Tony was totally schizofrenic and imbecile while in the first game he was smart and more balanced as Joel (Thanks the HBO series has made him already a little bit stupid so we can swallow this crap)
That first point is just such a "WHYYY!!!" Moment to me. I had the same reaction in Wolfenstein the New Colossus, where if you know the last scene with your "Baby mama", you know what mean 😂😂😂
@@misterhoobomaster It just comes off as some kind of message and I can't even say for sure, what message that is or if it even is one. Plus, she's also a medic, that alone should be enough to give her a lifetime pass from active duty in the field, like, come on!
Legitimately my only grievance with this game is the way Joel dies. It’s not even the fact that he dies, but how. It seemed so out of character, and contrived. Everything else, including the narrative framing and themes, is masterful.
What about the pacing of the story? Don't you consider it kinda weird that just as the conflict with Abby is heating up, we suddenly have to play as her for the next 8 hours before resuming that conflict? In a storyline that has barely anything to do with Ellie's and could've been it's own game or DLC?
Joel changing a little bit in 5 years of recruting people outside of Jackson is not strange. Joel changed DRAMATICLY through out Part 1 too (that's the entire point) in not even 1/5th of that time. Tommy has recruited people for Jackson for even longer and is used to introducing himself to recruit them into Jackson. That's why HE does it so easily to Abby (No it wasn't Joel)
The way he died was consistent with the tone of the series i.e. brutal and miserable. People who say "oh it's not the fact that he died it's HOW he died" always propose some corny-ass shit as alternative like "he should have BRAVELY sacrificed himself, taking out MULTIPLE infected and militiamen to save Ellie's life" or some saccharine nonsense like that
my only problem with the game (and personally what I believe should've been an incredibly crucial detail to show) is Joel's paranoia of strangers (such as when he ran over that one guy who was faking being hurt, or the fact he left a family on the side of the road when the apocalypse barely began) being completely gone in TLOU2. I understand that if someone lives in a specific environment for an extended period, someone gets accustomed to that lifestyle, but all I wanted was for them to SHOW it through visual storytelling or through a showing of a change in demeanor from Joel. The story structure is also a bit of a mess but it wasn't as god-awful as people made it out to be, but it was a problem nonetheless and I felt that the story could've/should've been formated similarly to how "Gone Girl" was. Regardless I'm still getting the remake because the game overall is still incredible and personally made me fall in love with it, flaws included.
honestly I get that point but I also think think a big reason on why his guard was down because this time he was with a community of people and surronded by actual friends and family. I think living with people you care about plus in a protected community kind of forced him to be softer as he was not in constant threat anymore.
@@blindstargoogly7448 yeah I agree but I wish they showed it more clearly rather than expecting the player or watcher (when the second season of the live action comes out) to assume that’s what happened, with a simple scene of showing Joel welcoming new people in or in the same way you saw the grandpa in “Up” age but use that to show how the community in TLOU2 grew to that scale while making Joel a focus in that.
No one ever considers that he was just trying to save a woman’s life and then found himself escaping a horde with her and ends up in a room full of strangers. He and Tommy were outnumbered - there was no point in being paranoid because there was nothing he could have done if they wanted to hurt/rob/kill him
@@nottomboyd the first time Joel meets Henry and Sam he was willing to kill Joel in the same way that Henry was willing to kill Joel which literally illustrated that this paranoia isn’t just Joels. You can’t have the paranoid strong old man being killed without that paranoia playing into the narrative or at the very least showing change in order to say “he feels safer in this world now, and he is much more trusting of strangers and people he doesn’t know in general”. I think ignoring everything that happened in tlou1 is a but reductive of what/who Joel is and reducing him to “he was just trying to save a girl” especially with the back catalog of shown paranoia and trauma he’s had throughout the story is a bit reductive of the character. And during the sequence specifically prior to getting inside the house they were in, im shocked there wasn’t any “where you guys going?” after being told they were just “passing through” or questioning the odd demeanors of Abby and Owen talking to the side or simple curiosities someone (paranoid or not) might have about people camped right outside their base
I am just starting the video, but just gonna throw in my thoughts. - My main issue is the setting vs. logic/set character points. We see things like a medic which is pregnant get sent to the front, we see Joel blindly trusting strangers and following them and lowering his guard etc. Which one can argue that makes sense after being there for so long, but I cannot personally see him changing that much. - And I agree with Nakey Jakey another creator talking about this game, that when they killed Joel, my expectations flew to the roof, and them not succesfully meeting them lessen the experience as a whole, not to mention I was not sold on his death, so the whole revenge plot in itself I struggled to really vibe with so to speak, and when you are not sold on those things from the get-go, what you do down the lane is just "meh" more or less, at least to me. - Ellie became the most dispicable character ever, not just because of her deeds per-se throughout. - GODDAMN FLASHBACKS! I legit got confused at one point wondering where or when tf we were at one point. I despise flashbacks as a main story telling method, it is legit annoying and to me it feels lazy more than anything, instead of building character there and then, we dial back to when they are younger to get sympathy points, that is how it feels to me. I see what they were going for, I know there is great potential in this kind of story, but the execution is just all over the place. To me TLOU2 never happened, and only the first one was ever released, I never wanted a second game tbh, I like how it ended.
I have my gripes with the story. Personally I really wanted to play as only ellie. But the thing that always makes me come back to this game is simply the gameplay. Its too polished and satisfying to not go back and play through.
Not interested in the remaster . I think just playing the game once, was more than enough. I’m curious to see how season two of the show is gonna turn out to be. Especially with Kaitlyn Dever, portraying Abby
I think you actually need to play it multiple times to really grasp the story. I don’t believe it’s a good thing that multiple playthroughs are necessary, but that’s still the case.
I was completely Meh about the game to be honest. But I can see why it was so polarizing. Me personally there were way too many characters that I was supposed to care about but didn’t and the game was simply too long in my opinion. I loved the focused, shorter story of the first game. As far as Joel, didn’t mind what happened but the timing probably could have been done better.
17:20 but who in the last of us story is in the right?? Who??? No one is written with clear morals in that story because most likely the good hearted ones died. The only characters which we written with a sense humanity is Joel and Ellie. Ellie was abandoned by her mother, her friend etc Everyone either want to hurt her or use her, everyone except for Joel. Joel didn’t even care about the world, he just wanted his tools. The fireflies used this as a crux to have him carry Ellie. He fought so hard not to get close to her but she won him over. He then realizes the hope through Ellie and Ellie realized her meaning of self through him. It’s not our fault these characters were wrote this way. If Marlene and co or anyone else were written this way, it would have been the same love from fans. Joel and Ellie’s story was a peek humanity. A father and and a child is the pinnacle to human love and purpose. We all naturally understand this bond because it’s a bond which has existed since the birth of our history. Who would care about the world when the world is only self serving and takes away our love and hope. The world only care about the masses because only the masses can feed it. Joel lost everything to the world. So should he have also sacrificed his only remaining cherishment to the cold grasp of the world???
two things rub me the wrong way about this game. 1. if it wasnt for the insane graphics, it would get roasted a lot more 2. developers are massive hypocrites. you have exactly two options in this game - kill folks or sneak around them. everything else is done for you or you are forced to smash button X to kill someone or mission failed, and then the game expects you to feel bad. "wow dude look at this poor dog we forced you to kill, truly terrible this cycle of violence innit" and after all the talk about confronting ludonarrative dissonance they spit in your face by not even giving you the CHOICE to execute Abby at the end, which at least would have forced the player to reflect on the whole thing a bit, but no - again they take control away from you.
This is on point ☝️ Like, why make killing random NPC's into such an emotional experience, if it has literally no impact on the story. NakeyJakey had a perfect example from Metal Gear(can't recall which ATM) where you're confronted with the ghosts of all the people you've killed in the game thus far. He even shows, they had a perfect setup for such a scene, when Abbey goes to a Morgue and a body bag is opened, not showing someone you've killed, but a guy you have only heard about up until now. What if the Morgue was a real reflection of how many Ellie had killed up until this point and it actually reflected, what you did when killing some of them.
No idea what the point of this video is. The reasons many hate the game, especially the story, are well known and there's no convincing them that they are wrong when it comes to their issues with Naughty Dog's narrative decisions.
Honestly, this story isn’t insane. As much I’d hate to admit it, almost every decision these characters make are accurate with what THEY would actually do. This is the story of how Ellie became a broken woman in a relentless world. I love it for what it is. Because no matter how emotionally and physically draining this game is, it impacted its player in a way no other video game could. it’s why we still talk about it. It’s not perfect, but it doesn’t need to be.
It is an incredible game and I felt emotions playing it that I have never felt playing any other game. I love both Ellie and Abby and cannot wait for the 3rd game.
It has great concepts and themes definitely, and it's true that it was bold to write the story the way they did. But the execution certainly was lacking in many ways.
Yeah, leaks sucks, but there is still that issue with the "Story Trailer" which was released around a month and half before the game, which is quite literally False Advertisement. Like, that is the biggest issue to me, overall, because we now have a perfect example of outright lying, to try and sell a product, which isn't something we should ever allow or be "ok" with. For anyone who doesn't know what trailer I'm talking about, try and look it up and tell me what is wrong with it, cause it's pretty glaring what they did, just so they could "Disprove Leaks".
@@suisinghoraceho2403 thank you. Since I didn't even play it, I try not to talk about the story or anything like that, but I don't think it should be such a controversial thing, to say that we shouldn't see any developer, big or small, pull a stunt like Naughty Dog did. I seriously think the gaming community as a whole, should be able to support that stance, but most just sum my complaint up as some kind of criticism of the game. That, or they call me names. So thx again for being reasonable, glad you liked the game and can be reasonable when I complain about the Marketing. 😁👍
@@suisinghoraceho2403 I have pretty much resigned myself to dying on this hilltop, might be a lonely existence, but I just can't support the developer or the game for that reason, even though I loved the first game to bits! Hopefully, they can make another game I can support and enjoy in the future, but it just ain't gonna be this game.
@@chriswihulu Betrayal is the worst type of hurt. And no disrespect to Jessie (I really like him as a fellow Asian), but swap him out for Joel in the trailer is one step too far. That said, it’s usually a different team doing the marketing and developing the game.
The writing or more importantly, the execution was absolutely atrocious. The first game had a super basic run of the mill story that was executed to literal perfection, elevating a basic story and making it incredibly memorable on top of an amazing cast. The second game had a much, much more interesting story was executed woefully. Add an incredibly boring cast, and you get a bizarre game that has amazing gameplay being held up on story, characters, pacing (this was awful), and to make it all worse, they removed the MP section in which the first game had for $.
Honestly, I think people would have less issues with TLOU2's narrative if it didn't take itself so frigging seriously. Every game has "ludonarrative dissonance" issues, every game makes the player do things that come into direct conflict with the narrative in some way, but very few of them take themselves as serious as TLOU2. And since the game is so very obviously trying to be important and tackle themes in a very serious and grandiose artsy way, all the narrative issues become exponentially bigger. I wouldn't mind the fact that I'm killing people violently by the hundreds, and having a blast doing it btw, if the game didn't try so heavily to tell me the violence cycle perpetuated by both protagonists by them dehumanizing each other was successfully broken in the end when they let each other live. The heck does that cycle of violence even matter anymore after I've killed so many people and started so many other cycles of violence anyway? All that being said, my biggest issue with TLOU2 by far is the pacing. I can very easily overlook all the issues I have with TLOU2's narrative (even besides the one I mentioned previously), but the pacing is just atrocious. Every time I think about replaying it, I get preemptively tired by all the boring stuff I'll have to go through to enjoy the good stuff. The beginning is so meandering, switching perspectives so many times right off the bat, then so many flashbacks along the game, so much walking and talking, so many pointless looting sections, and then the game restarts in the middle to focus on a character you haven't played as, or even seen for hours, with a completely different set of characters, halting my progression right at the peak of the narrative tension, frankly, I get tired just talking about it.
I think season 2 has the chance to do a lot better as a show. A problem with the game is u had to do all the stuff urself. It made u feel just terrible at times. The show might be better with that and the narrative thing where u kill a bunch even tho the theme is about the cycle of violence. Idk I’m just ranting but someone explain it better if u can
It might but also a lot of the story was based on you playing and doing XYZ. Your supposed to feel taxed and worn down by the end becayse you’ve seen so much and played it. I don’t know how much will translate for a show but flipping between characters and perspectives probably will work better as they divide the story into digestible hour chunks vs a 30 hour game you can take your time moving through
That’s kind of the point though, that’s what makes video games special and that’s why this game is historic. We’ve all seen shows and movies like this, but actually playing a game where you play as the antagonist is unique to video games
I love the gameplay ( mostly the combat parts), the animations and environments. Story definitely let me down but I don’t hate it as much anymore honestly. Its so damn fun to kill people in this game its so strange. I love the combat and the animations more than anything.
Well they went from a decent story in the first game with exceptional character development. To a teenage drama which alienated half of the fan base. This is why you got people who love and people who hate it.
When you smash a fucking battle axe into the body of a living breathing human being, the game does a tremendous job of conveying the weight, rage and gravitas of that act. Or when u ram a dirty rusty shiv into your victims neck it feels so visceral and well "real" in TLOU II. Like yeah this is steel cutting through flesh making a person bleed out. Or that steel pipe I pummel people with is breaking all of the bones in their face. How the blows connect and the animations are flawless plus how the camera shake underlines the weight of the action it's so amazingly satisfying and yet terrifying.
The worst part for me is that they start out with typical last of us moral greyness, where everyone is just kind of a dark brutal person and very few step into genuine good or evil, before they then ruin this trying and failing to create a clear right and wrong in the dynamic. Abby killing Joel isnt treated as an act of evil its just sort of "well, he killed her dad and was no saint himself so something like was bound to happen sooner or later", Joel's murder isnt framed as a good thing because he was a bad person, Ellie isnt initially treated like a bad person for her brutality. Which is good, thematically appropriate and morally sensible...........and then they go and force abby to have a really unnecessary redemption arc (where she doesnt even learn any lesson that would make her reconsider her actions) and now she's apparently supposed to be a good person just in time to fight Ellie. Its simultaneously painfully shallow and also really confusing what they were trying to say with her entire section of the game, Neil I didn't need this woman to be "redeemed" to understand her, I would've done the exact same thing if Joel killed my dad it made sense as is.
Abby is clearly struggling with what she did to Joel for her entire section of the game. There are so many things that show this. One example would be her sleeping poorly on a consistent basis until she saves Yara and Lev, at which point she finally wakes up peacefully. Along with this, Abby is never painted as “a good person” during her fight with Ellie. You are not supposed to be rooting for either her or Ellie. The Last of Us, Parts I and II, are both stories about love and the power that it holds. Whereas Part I puts an emphasis on the good forces that love can bring, Part II focuses more on the bad forces that love can bring. When Ellie and Abby finally fight in the theater, it is meant to show the sheer impact that love can have on people, as it has led the two of them to such a dark and brutal place.
did we play the same game? in what world what abby did to joel was indicted as good in the game? you can sympathize with her and understand her motives, does not mean it was morally right lol.
@@nickhoadley6789 I picked up on what you're describing during their rematch, but during the theater fight if that was the intent it didnt come across that way to me at all. Maybe if they had you switching between the two characters for different sections of the fight that may have illustrated that idea better, but as it stands it seemed to portray abby as the more righteous of the two right up until the end and even then she leaves the fight in a much better position than Ellie does and I dont think that was an accident.
@@fionn2220Idk, I feel like you are misconstruing who has the upper hand and who is viewed as "winning" as who is right or wrong. I personally don't think the story makes any of the clear statements that you're suggesting. That's like saying that Naughty Dog thought Joel was morally right at the end of the first game just because he "won".
@@anastasiiaiurkova8897 I said the opposite of that? That her actions werent portrayed as evil or righteous just sort of the expected outcome of Joel's actions and their impact on Abby. I also disagree, of course you dont have to see her as morally right, but I do and I dont even like her very much. Joel killed her dad and (debatably) doomed humanity, as far as im concerned she had every right in the world to get her revenge on him. How long it took was a bit over the top but if someone killed my dad with a scalpel I would hope Id be even worse so its not very relevant to me.
The most painful thing for me was: Vaccine/hostpital situation... there is 0 explanation why Jerry wanted to do so quickly the operation... there is 0 profess that the operation would give us vaccine (which where I found out that there is no such thing as a vaccine against the fungus in our modern world and TLOU world stuck in 2013 medically so it should be impossible) which make this thing a just a plot to talk about if Joel doomed the world or not... and the situation that Ellie don't know that Marlene order to kill Joel if he started something and that she didn't figure it out that she was unconscious and no one asked her and she blamed Joel for making the decison but in reality it was Abby father and Merlene - that one was painful because then we have flashback with Abby that "she would sacrificed herself for the world if she would be on Ellie position" but there is a plot hole here: Abby DECIDED and Ellie DIDN'T... xD
Nobody who wrote for the first game bothered to ask any scientists if this was even possible but even if it was and we ignore that fact the first game paints the picture of the Fireflies being no better than FEMA they're incompetent terrorists with delusions of grandeur hoping by holding the vaccine they'd get to be on top, the restoration of a pre apocalypse was nothing but a dead dream at that point. The Fireflies didn't really know what they were doing and Ellie would've likely died for nothing.The first game ends on a great note of ambiguity and players have discussed what they would do in Joel's shoes and if it was right etc. Druckmann and part 2 retroactively decided Joel was not only completely in the wrong but the Fireflies would've succeeded in their endeavor so Joel 100% doomed humanity instead of the first game never saying that it was a 100% guarantee they'd have succeeded. An irritating retcon that was entirely unnecessary it doesn't matter if the Fireflies would've succeeded Joel killed Abby's dad and that's why she went after him.
If you're the kind of person that plays video games for fun gameplay, then you shouldn't have a problem with this. It's one of the most well made stealth action games of all time. Graphics, controls, set pieces, gore, tension, enemy AI, are all the best it gets. The story isn't even unexciting or poorly acted. It just isn't what people expected. To me, that's a completely stupid reason to hate something.
I believe that's detrimental considering the game actually wants you to feel horrible about killing, but it's the most polished part of the game and the only objectively fun part, that's like another failure of the game
@@deadmeme4276 the horror elements and creature design/AI are objectively fun. You're not supposed to feel bad about killing those. Really there are just a handful of people you're meant to feel bad for killing, and even then it's them or you from a narrative perspective.
Whenever people try to highlight the gameplay of Part 2 as the selling point, it really tells me that they have either never played any Metal Gear Solid game (especially the third game) or maybe played through them once and never touched them again. And the MGS games aren't perfect. The first two haven't aged well control-wise, but the third and fourth games? Pretty damn good and they do a lot of the mechanics that TLoU2 attempts much better.
It’s funny there’s always the film debates between people who’s favorite films are Citizen Kane, Goodfellas, and any best picture nominated film and those who’s favorites are Star Wars, Jurassic park, James Cameron. I enjoy both sides equally and I think TLOU2 can kickstart a trend where we have games that reach levels like the first list (not to say the first list is inherently superior just because it’s "deeper")
I think the narrative, when taken as a whole, is not good at all... but a lot of the individual parts are good. The gameplay is tense, realistic, and unapologetically brutal. The character animations are the best I've seen in a game. The linear level design is incredible. The environments are beautifully detailed. World-building and atmosphere are also excellent. I think most people made up their minds about the game before it was released, or when Joel died. As far as the woke stuff, it was definitely in there, but they don't beat you over the head with it like media does today. It was tolerable to me.
They could have wrote off joel without killing him Abby could have seriously injured him to the point he is useless in a fight, anyway I think if they had let the players play as Abby first up to the joel encounter then you play as Ellie and you stay as Ellie after Joel's death now you have a more enjoyable plot to at least playthrough
Honestly when the first game happened I called bulshit that he just walked away from all of that scot-free. So I kind of felt Justified when he got killed in such a way during part 2. Also makes me think about how in life sometimes people go out not how they want to go out but rather in almost a cheated way. That's just life and I was actually impressed that they did it the way they did
I wasnt surprised Joel got killed he did too much to not have that outcome despite his reason for doing so either however a part of me love to think about if joel survived the encounter but waa changed in a permanent way seeing Ellie being driven by revenge and getting lost in that is a punishment in itself
The story wouldn’t work if Joel survived. There is no chance Abby would have left Wyoming with him still alive, there’s no chance Ellie would’ve gone after her if he was still alive, and there’s no chance the player would’ve saw red enough if he was alive still. Joel’s death is literally the only way this whole story could get put into motion. It had to happen
@@nickhoadley6789 the story could still work Abby is driven by revenge she could very easily be satisfied if she gave joel brain damage or crippled him even if she didnt kill him. She hates what Joel has done even if she didnt succeed in killing him the fact that joel will never be able to defend himself in a zombie apocolypse is a fate worse than death. The thing is that they were other ways Naughty dog could have wrote off Joel as a character I know killing off a character is always the most popular solution but sometimes it might not be the right choice when it comes to a story that is about hate and how that changes you. Ellie would have still wanted to go after Abby after she damn near beat Joel to death and made her watch, the events of the game still happen but this time instead of ellie seeing joel when she lets Abby go she looks at lev while she is strangling Abby and sees herself in him when Abby beat Joel and she lets her go realizing if she continues this cycle Lev could comeback and do the same to her and do it in front of JJ
@@theoutsiderjess1869 this just isn’t true though. Joel literally had to die for this story to work. Whether or not you think killing him was a good idea is up to each player, but it’s necessary for the story. There was no chance in hell Abby would’ve let Joel live. She was so blinded by her hate towards him that it consumed her life. She wasn’t gonna have him in her hands after so many years of pain and just decide to let him go because he was hurt enough
Great video and on point! Lol while I enjoyed the gameplay I feel like the story itself was emotional torture for the sake of emotional torture, this was the first game I ever finished that literally had me say “that was too much” and I’ve yet to replay it yet despite the great gameplay
Me too I swear I told myself I will never play this game again because it was too mentally draining but now with the remaster I’m going to give it another go
Strange I had the exact opposite experience. I never replayed the first because the ending hit me too hard and frankly I watched Logan and Children of men and enjoyed those narratives more. But I had to replay the sequel because the narrative was so captivating and unique
Not just joels brutal death but how he let himself die. How he gave them his name and was so giving with all his info to strangers. That was not who joel was and he would have never given that up, but it had to happen.
People change with time, he lived in Jackson for years letting his guard down. Also he is older and people make mistakes. Doesn't need to be more complicated than this. He is a person, he had it coming and Abby had her reasons to do it.
@@Fyrapan90 people change with time is your reasoning??. So do all people change with time? Let his guard down that much? YOUR stretching. Bottom line is, it was bad writing that didn't make sense hence bad decision in terms of being true to plot and character based on last narrative.
This is just quite simply misrepresenting what actually happened lmao. Tommy told Abby their names before they had any reason to suspect she had a group of heavily armed friends nearby. The only thing Joel and Tommy did wrong debatably was telling only Abby their names and rescuing her in the first place. They rescue her because they’re better people now and they tell her their names because she could’ve been a new member to Jackson, once saved. Apart from that Joel and Tommy did nothing else wrong and at every point try to either get away from the group or negotiate with them.
@@Fyrapan90a Boy Scout doesn’t forget being a Boy Scout when he is 30 years old. Those memories and that skill set is imbedded in their memory forever and will be remembered when put in that situation. He was in Jackson a few years sure but he was surviving for 20 before that. i don’t care about the name giving thing cause it is straw pulling in my opinion but the “Jackson nerfed him” idea is kinda bizarre to me.
I think we got to a point where games are as much art as any other art, so yes, it can be used as just a regular media for entertainment but it has so much potential to share the author's deep thoughts, and feelings the same way a movie or song can, and it doesn't have to be funny and entertaining every time. Not everyone likes deep and complex movies and that's ok. If the game is too heavy or you just want to have fun and don't think about complex stuff, you have the absolute right to don't play and don't like. It's not for you. My opinion: I love the story of this game, to ME ,it makes the audience uncomfortable in a good way, it made me rethink my beliefs and actions in such a deep way. Apart from the story, the gameplay is funny as hell though, the animations, the gunfights, the stealth and the graphics,😙🤌. This game is a masterpiece.
Agree, a game doesn’t have to make you feel good for it to provide a great experience. If your personal preference is a more “happy” experience then great, but that itself is not a good criticism.
I still can't understand how a surgeon could create a vaccine for a fungi, which hasn't happened in real life, and why anyone would trust a bandit group to do the right thing for humanity. I also don't understand how they'd mass produce it and how they'd win over the public opinion of other survival groups when the Fireflies were considered a terrorist group. The fact they wanted to force an unconscious child to undergo surgery and state that's the 'moral high ground' is unfathomable. The second part just seems like forced storytelling, and I think the better option would have been starting the second game with new characters all around, leaving Joel and Ellie's story up to the fans for speculation.
Thanks for your opinion!!! You do need to realize that there is a lot of us that LOVE THE GAME, meaning everything about it, especially the story. This game was different in every sense possible, the fact that we play with Abby and get to understand her side of the story is awesome. I would love a part 3 and I’m pretty sure that I’m not alone…
The way they handled the story pissed me off so much lol. The only saving grace would’ve been killing Abby and actually having some kinda payoff but no, they don’t give you that satisfaction and the entire journey is pointless, with you having accomplished absolutely nothing.
man, I was so annoyed for like a year with this game but I made my peace with it and am gonna enjoy the upgraded version for what it is. the gameplay and graphics is just so good. that’s what’s really pulling me back in
Abby killing Joel wasn't problematic. It was the manner in which his death played out. Joel is a hardened, wise, experienced apocalypse survival legend. There is NO logical reason why Joel would just offer up his and his brother's names and their affiliations with the city of Jackson to complete strangers. It's completely ridiculous and contrived. So after literally decades of living in that world and understanding how important trust is he just throws that out the window and gets himself killed? Fuck that. Edit: people have responded it's Tommy who gives up there names. Let me clarify that's irrelevant. My point is people who've been living in that world (literally same amount of time for both Joel and Tommy) and who've been shown to be very careful and intelligent wouldn't let their guards down like that.
I agree. It also bothered me that he just became a 'throw away' character. Why wasn't he with Ellie during the first part of the game? She's mad at him and they get stuck together on the mission - then he dies. That would have had much more emotional impact than just throwing him away for Dina, then having Ellie stumble on him - just to see him killed.
1. Tommy is the one who reveals their names. Tommy has never been nearly as tough as Joel. 2. Joel is hardened yes but he become "human" again in Part 1 because of Ellie and part 2 is 5 years later in safety and recruiting people. Early on Part 1 Joel would never talk about playing guitar with a little girl either but here we are. 3. People make mistakes in real life and in games (it's not exactly impossible) for any "human".
Exactly, in my opinion I can look past as you and others said Joel acting uncharacteristically because it’s a different Joel that doesn’t have that relationship with Ellie so maybe he’s just a softer Joel and didn’t view them as threats (which regardless was a mistake that yeah someone with his experience shouldn’t have made). My issue with how he died wasn’t even with the literal manner in which he died it was more so the timing, if it happened the same way but later on I wouldn’t have had as much of a problem with it. Him dying like that so early on hurt so bad because it felt like a slap in the face to all of us that love him and his story and seeing as he’s such an important character it sucks that he was as you said treated as a throw away character in that way. It felt insanely disrespectful to his character and to us as fans. Edit: I’ll also say I hate how Jesse was in the game to essentially give Ellie a kid🤦🏽♂️I liked him a lot and wish they handled that differently yeah it adds to the idea that “the world is brutal and anyone can die” but it’s the walking dead effect where the lesser fleshed out characters always die not the main ones, if they really wanted to push that idea why did Tommy not die too?
no its just a bad game objectively, the devs acted like Joel being completely reasonable and not helping everyone he came across was a bad thing THATS the reason he died and why so many people were angry it wasn't "grief" it was bad writing. The way they always TRIED to make you feel bad to like "play with this dog so you feel bad later" but you dont cause there was no choice and was obviously just emotional manipulation and the "enemy's shout out names so you feel bad" for the people trying to kill me? not to mention all of the walking sections. its a bad game stop trying to justify it by saying people didn't like it cause it drew out emotion its WHY it drew it out i love sad movies and dramas and such that make me feel WAY sadder so find another strawman this one is very tiring the excuse of "i was making art" is not an excuse to make a bad game with bad writing also even the concept of trying to make you feel bad for joels killer is dumb and flawed she murdered an innocent man for not helping her dad when THEY ARE IN A APOCALYPSE so she's either HUGELY self cantered or so stupid i dont want to play as her anyway and im supposed to feel bad just cause she saves some animals and trash? i just finished it did this man claim that the acting was good? lmao okay buddy after this trash review you have lost all credibility to me if you cant even tell why its so badly written and how bad it is
I think you're very downunder in this stuff. I think you are actually self centered and those sad movies encourage that self importance. also stage 3 is bargaining. unless you're still in stage 1.
Would have made so much more sense if we started off by playing a new character that also happened to be likable and everything that is not Abby... Maybe some backstory, flashbacks, friendships and some hints to who this person was and much later in the game when the "altercation" hits and you find out who Abby is, it would become more of a stand-off between two characters we like (Obviously everyone likes Joel more but it wouldn't be so one-sided at least). I think the biggest downside to part 2 is that Abby is a pouty and dislikable bitch the entire game and they try to redeem her by just copying part 1 but with another kid and it doesn't work at all!
The game is a masterpiece. It’s emotionally challenging and complex, something that most people weren’t ready for. I can understand people not wanting the story to go in this direction but I think it was a brave decision that had me thinking about it more than any other game. It genuinely impacted my view about the world which is not something I’d ever expect from a video game. The structure was perfect as well btw. Changing it would have diluted its impact. My only real critique was that they made you fight Ellie when playing as Abby. Nobody was ever going to react well to attacking our hero. If they wanted to push the “perspective” angle, they should have kept switching so that you were always the one on the defensive. Nobody will ever want to hurt Ellie. She is TLOU.
I'm a huge fan of the first game, have played through it probably 20-30 times. I won't likely ever play part 2, but I've seen quite a lot of it streamed. It's obvious to me that the gameplay I liked about the first game is there and bettered, that the graphics are amazing and quite a lot of the writing is well done. However. It's clear to me the Neil Druckmann has become a bit obsessed with putting social subversion in his games at the expense of the player. I didn't think for a second before TLOU2 was shown that Joel would be making it out of the game alive, so him dying isn't the problem. The way that scene happens though, is extremely poorly done. Worse than that though, the entire end of TLOU1 (in the Firefly hospital) is thrown out to push the idea that what Joel did to save Ellie was bad, in order to build sympathy for Abby. Even Ellie is shitty to Joel for what everyone who played that part of the first game knew was absolutely justified (especially so if you've read the notes throughout the hospital). I feel all of this is lazy writing and intentionally disrespectful to the player, and character, that wasn't even Neil's to ruin. I know there are people who really like the game who will hate what I've said but I just can't support a company that treats it's own IP and characters that way just to get some weird 'right side of history' points. Druckmann's social media over the years since is also proof of his intentions being subversive and frankly, weird. The multiple remasters and remakes to milk money from people is also not a great look for Naughty Dog. Unfortunately I kind of doubt they'll even make a game that interests me again though I'd love to be wrong on that.
I stopped caring about everyone’s opinion on this game. It’s absolutely phenomenal to me and I’ve tried to understand where people see why it’s bad but I just don’t. I enjoyed every second of both games
Pre-Watch comment: So much TLOU2 discussion is led by people who havent played it or heavily misrepresent it after watching surface level TH-cam analysis videos (NakeyJakey). With the Remastered coming out, at least people who hate this game can try it for the first time.
Flexing your communication and educational background on this one Luke, and I'm here for it. Your rhetoric and oratory style has gotten so strong, and I enjoy your pragmatic and logical approach to the game industry.
im not sure you want to go down this road. Im sure your favorite video game also has aspects that couldnt work in real life but are there because it is a video game.
@@Bryandan1elson my games don't pride themselves on being realistic, but if we go there, Saga Metro could stand agaisnt it, and TLOU1 didn't have these mechanics and it worked fairly well
@@Bryandan1elson ok, incorrect wording, point still stands, there are games that do this very thing and do it better, I mentioned Metro. TLOU1 wasn't really stealth focused but it's the previous game and I'd be surprised if it didn't work if you bust gave me crowching and a suppressed pistol. And MGS5 TPP had something a bit like it IF with the regular Big Boss in a box gag, but you can play it in a realistic form.
@@Saint_Wolf_ okay I see what you mean. I think all these games need to have some suspension of disbelief to some degree. For me at least, I can look past these things as game mechanics. Like in Assassins creed hiding in tall grass never really made sense, but it works because it’s a game.
Imo they should NOT be marketing the ‘remaster’ as a remaster… they should be calling it a directors cut because that’s effectively what it is! Some amazing new content I’m really excited for
Except it’s not a Director’s Cut. It’s not adding unfinished content into the main story mode or a DLC story. All of those "Lost Levels" are a completely separate thing from the story mode.
@@Infinite_Ethan03 well if not a directors cut maybe something else. It’s doing it a disservice as they’re adding a whole new, cool mode which a lot of people will look past
Honestly, they could have just made it a free "Next-gen Upgrade" and sold the new Mode as actual DLC, cause as far as I have been able to find find out, you need to upgrade in order to play that mode, which is kinda scummy, imo.
@@chriswihulu I don’t see it as scummy at all, you’re getting a remaster, new lost levels, new unlockable skins and a whole new survival mode for $10, seems good value to me. I do agree that they should have called it a next gen upgrade though
@@kjgames888 it wasn't really clear what I meant, reading my comment again. I meant, it feels scummy to charge for an upgrade, which is the only way to access that extra content, as far as I can tell. What if you don't own a PS5, or just want to play the extra content, because it seems to be the case, that they lock what is essentially DLC, behind a Remake version. Especially when we just saw GoW: Ragnarok release their DLC for FREE, no forced upgrade or extra charge, especially as I can't tell how "Valuable" the Extra Content in the Remake is.
I was pumped when LoU2 was announced and even pre-ordered the collector's edition, but when I heard about the leaks and golfing references, I canceled and got the standard version. Personally, I think Neil Druckman knows how to construct a story and create interesting characters, but his attitude towards a lot of the valid criticism of the game really put him in a bad light for me. I think Bruce Straley was more instrumental to the first Last of Us than he's credited for. Granted, talented artists can strike out, too, but Druckman strikes me as someone that needs to be told "No" or really reigned in on certain aspects of his storytelling. I'd be fine with Joel's death if the lead-up was better and we got to see his more softened behavior in regards to him being more welcoming of strangers and all that. I also think Druckman did a disservice to the first game's blurred morality by painting Joel's actions as purely black and white. It was pretty annoying watching Ellie miss the point of Joel's choice once she had a child of her own. In regards to Abby, she wasn't well written to me as a character considering how the game doesn't even give us time to adjust to her before she kills Joel. If anything, it felt like the game was hinting the world would probably be better without either Abby or Ellie, and I was hoping they would've killed each other by the end considering how overbearing the game is about the idea of cyclical violence and hatred. The game is great to play tho, but the story needed a lot more time to cook. At least for me, Part II tainted the series overall. Just because an artist takes a big swing, that doesn't mean they should get more leeway from valid criticism. Can't wait for this game to re-enter the public consciousness with HBO's take and hear the passionate, but reasonable discourse
I feel the same in regards to Druckmann and Straley. I remember years and years ago not long after the first game launched they had an interview together with I think IGN and Druckmann talked about how he originally wanted to have Tess be the final boss in the first game and she had chased Joel across the country and Straley or somebody else told him no as it didn't make sense in context to the world. This is the story Druckmann always wanted to write and nobody was going to tell him no now that he was in charge.
I understand how people might think a sequel is unecessary, but I just disagree. I don't think sequels can be necessary or unecessary, they can either be good stories or bad stories. In the case of The Last of Us, I think the sequel is, narratively speaking, very good and its existance justifies itself because it is a good story and it is properly executed. Of course, there are people who may not have liked the sequel and that is totally OK. But that doesn't mean that its existance is unecessary
What I am trying to say is that the creator (in this case, Neil Druckmann) is well within his right to believe his creation deserves a continuity, wether it is a sequel, a prequel or whatever, and that decision is valid in itself. What the audience should judge is how good that new story is, not if it should have existed or not.
I thought it was a great game. Would have liked it to be a bit longer. Absolutely loved the conflicting feelings it created and thought it was very clever.
There was nothing clever about it, it had a dogshit story, there was no conflict, fans of the franchise got two beloved characters, one of whom was killed off and the second practically replaced at times by the fuck nugget, that then the game spent a LOT of time manipulating you to like her
@@TheNightman.your opinion is not wrong but neither is the one from the OG comment. They have the right to like the game lol you have the right to hate it
I agree with the whole section of Pacing Problems and Emotional Strain. I play games to have fun as well. When this dumpster of a fire game, had me go through all of the horrible shit, and finding some happiness seeing Dinah and Ellie being happy, it threw me into another badly emotional roller coaster (is the best way I can describe this without swearing-) all because of pacing and there's no payoff. I thought I get to kill Abby or get the choice to do so. Nope. No emotional payoff after the hell I went through. In terms of entertainment, that sucked. I'm with your friend, in the video, Luke. I'll play Monster Hunter. That game makes me happy. This game, makes me feel like hell and it didn't even let me get the huge emotional payoff because that was stripped for me, because the game thought this should be better. I think Ghost of Tsushima did this better in the ending, by letting you choose, based on the experience you went through. I'm so upset that this game lost to TLOU at the time. What a hell of a year that was.
Play a game that will actually make you happy by trying Warframe: t.warframe.com/c/fl8fkm
Luke Stephen, you can not simply lure people to be convinced that easily to defend this absurd game to every gamers 😂😂😂
Bro let it go ITS A SHIT GAME...with bad, lazy and nonsensical writing ...and most of all the WOKENESS in it killed it.
Its a shame the game of the year awards were rigged because of political bias, otherwise would had
Final Fantasy 7 remake
or
Ghosts of Tsushima
won game of the year in 2020
@@tanelviil9149 Which part? Ellie being gay? She was gay back in 2013 in the DLC but hey, there wasn't "wokeness" in the conversation, so nobody gave a fuck.
Crying about wokeness is more obnoxious than the screaming lib meme.
They shouldn't have killed joel off
@@tanelviil9149 schizo
I think a Japanese reviewer (idk the source) had the best description about TLOU 2's narrative;
"It's about what's right and wrong, from the people who think that they're always right."
DAMN this is too accurate.💀💀💀😂😂😂
Ngl thats a great review.
I don't get it.
Ironically, fans always think they’re right.
Yeah, I saw that quote before and a lot of people seems to agree with it.
The game Luke is describing around 1:00 is basically Papers, Please and a lot of other indie games. There's a surprising amount of people who enjoy that kind of stuffs.
stuffs?
Yeah, I was just thinking "This is... he's describing Cart Life, and half a dozen other games."
I don't hear these games praised tho.. like ever
'the franchise would be easier to be invested in and enjoy if this part was never made" is a statement you should never ever want to hear as a studio
And it’s incorrect
People only say this when they refuse to engage with the game on its level. Development started in 2014.
@@jordanwilliams1447It is correct. Objectively. Whether you like it or not, the game polarized the audience.
@@jordanwilliams1447 oh well you if you say so guess that shows me
@@GothamiteYT you're sounding dangerously close to "To Be Fair, You Have To Have a Very High IQ to Understand Rick and Morty" my dude
Honestly, the same death scene could have been received a million times better if they actually built up Abby to have you care about her BEFORE that scene.
I still wouldn't have liked it, but at least I would have felt torn on the situation. The way it's currently set up made me want to let Abby die at all encounters and actively cheer for her downfall. Like in the fight against Ellie.
Definitely agree. Yet the defenders of the game would tell you that it was the whole point, to make you uncomfortable. To those people I would say that just because it was intentional on the developers part, doesn't mean that it was a good idea to begin with.
yeah but the thing is you can’t get the player to care about abby unless she does something to affect the player in the first place (i.e killing joel). if we started off learning about abby it would’ve been really confusing just playing as a random new character we’ve never seen before
@@rushil9881 Don't suppose you've played Kingdom Hearts 2? In that game we play the first three hours as Roxas, a completely new character. Of course we all were confused about what was happening and why we weren't playing as Sora. But most of us learned to care about Roxas by the time we went back to playing as Sora. This is just one example. So basically it can be done.
I disagree, because I feel like what appeals to me about the game is that I'm presented with a character that I immediately hate from the start of the game, and am then made to walk in her shoes. I feel like that's something that people hate about the game, that she's not made more likable before the action, to make us feel torn when Joel's death happens. The strength of the game for me is that it puts me, as a gamer, in a position I don't want to be in. I completely understand why people have a negative reaction to that. But for myself it's a strength, because it's forcing me to confront something I don't want to process.
Kinda would've defeated the whole purpose of it then....
A lot of the media tends to follow similar narrative tropes and tend to air on the safe side, especially if it involves a popular IP that can make a ton of money. While it's not the most unique or groundbreaking story ever, I respect that naughty dog at least tried to take a swing at something like that.
I also really like that the game was emotionally intense. Whether I was angry or sad, the game at least made me feel something. The same cannot be said for most stories in video games, TV, movies, etc.
bruh the writing is like something out of an mtv movie just cause your standards are low doesnt make it worth of fucking game of the year
@@WetcameraincYeah no you're wrong
Well see why most companys go for the safe side? Because of a majority people that can not comprehend such complex story. And yes it is complex, not the entire story itself, more like how the people in it interact and how differen sides are viewed.
@Wetcamerainc you make a better game then... oh wait😂
@@Wetcamerainc your taste feels like MTV
I JUST got around to playing part 2 with my girlfriend and let me say, holy hell is this game fantastic. The first game will always hold a special place in my heart but the second one asks bold questions about morality, forces the player to make tough decisions that they may not agree with and in my case changes how I viewed certain characters actions. The last of us is always about asking the players how far they would go to save the ones they love and the second one explodes with questions surrounding revenge, rage, justice and letting go. Acting is fantastic, looks fantastic and plays incredibly well. Easily slides into my top 5 of all time and left me stunned at the end of every chapter
I was one the people who never saw the leaks, but knew Joel was going to die. There are many complaints I have with the game, however the most serious offender to me is the way the game consistently failed to make me care. I didn't find the need to make things darker a problem, rather the way I could never immerse myself because I could see the story's intention and constant attempt at manipulating me, and in my head I just thought how pretentious it all seemed as the game kept failing to make me feel anything but disappointment.
Well said, I felt the same way, not to mention the pacing of the game felt like a slog with its semi open world and long winded sections without cutscenes broke up what made the first game so visceral and satisfying bouncing between story and gameplay. So when you take away the part of the game that I truly cared about and was immersed in (the story) and give me more gameplay between, it’s ultimately not working. 😢
Same.
@@jjones1032 same
😂
Agreed, just felt so manipulative compared to the first game. How they use animals/pregnant ppl at multiple points comes to mind
For me, so many of this games issues come from its structure. In the first game everything flows so naturally and logically with their journey from east to west. Here, like you said characters are fast traveling all over the country and timelines are shifting constantly, which really kills a lot of momentum from chapter to chapter. The whole California epilogue really felt forced or out of place, and it was sad to see Ellie learn nothing from the previous events up to that point.
I think they did an excellent job of making you feel the loss of Joel, and his absence from the game is so noticeable and it makes you connect with Ellie that much more. The problem is if you’re gonna take out your beloved main character in the first hour of the game, whatever is replacing him (Abby) has to be that much more engaging instead. And for myself, there just wasn’t enough time spent making that genuine connection with her like they did with Ellie in the first game. None of her friends are particularly likable, and even if you disagree it doesn’t matter as they’re often killed almost immediately after getting any screen time.
Unfortunate that a game with so much potential and such fun gameplay and really cool set-pieces (the hospital boss comes to mind) ended up becoming such a disappointment. I feel like somewhere in there, there’s a 10/10 sequel if they had just fixed the structure/pacing and spent more time exploring Joel and Ellie’s relationship after he made that choice to save her.
Agree, I think that if the played out the story in chronological order it would have hit harder and would of given the player more time to get used to and like Abby!
Agreed, also can we talk about how bogus crying for Sarah’s death is considering her screen time is less? I feel what you felt with Abby’s friend except with Sarah, despite the game and everyone talking about how important she is. Felt like fans did most the work caring for Sarah.
Also how do you feel about the Joel death fake out cut? A piece in the story cutout for dlc. That’s one thing I disagree with, it did not flow natural and logically during that part.
I know this is about part 2 but part 1 has flaws that fans called perfect and as such Naughty Dog felt comfortable with making even bolder moves than cutting out story for you to pay for in a dlc.
this was perfectly said. everything is there to make a 10/10 game, just the minor changes that you noted were needed
@@youngnat Yeah I think when people get sad about Sarah it's more about what she represents for Joel rather than her as an actual character. Him having lost a daughter is such an important piece of who he is and why he is so reluctant to get attached to Ellie. Honestly my favorite scene in the first game is at the ranch when Ellie finally gets Joel to realize that she's his family now and he can put Sarah's death behind him. But I get what you mean, she is only in the game for 15 minutes lol
For me that section didn't feel out of place, as they're still moving toward their goal of finding the fireflies. I don't remember feeling like they specifically took out the part of the story that happens in Left Behind just to sell it as DLC. Like to me having to play more as Ellie and go get the medicine or whatever happens in the DLC would've harmed the pacing imo, but it's been a while since I first played it so I'm not sure.
Yeah no game is perfect. I think they definitely felt like they could do no wrong after the first game was so universally praised, so they really tried to do something crazy which I can respect. They just weren't quite able to put it all together
I agree. Maybe they desperately wanted to be as profound as the first game. Unfortunately they missed the mark
honestly, the spoilers really actively changed peoples perception of the game, i would argue. my first playthrough was unspoiled and thus the pacing and switching between characters never really felt weird but actually impactful. it was a perfect build up. upon my 2nd playthrough tho, i understood how once you know what to expect, the pacing pulls you out of it a bit.
aside from that, narratively, i really welcomed the game avoiding to people please its fanbase and force you to do the horrible things and face and reflect the ludonarrative within such types of entertainment on a more inyourface-scale. especially for people enjoying or having fun killing virtual entities on a screen like a lawnmover cutting grass ... the way it took you out of such a (what i'd call) gamers obliviousness.. man it worked perfectly for me. especially since i never was a fan of the often brutal nature of SO.GOD.DAMN.MANY. video games. it felt long, seemingly neverending at times. but when it actually did, i was sad, because i could've gone on forever within that world with all its tragedy and drama that ND created for me. like a really good tv show ultimately ending. for what TLOU2 was trying to be, it did that perfectly.
It's so heavy handed with its themes that you can't help but roll your eyes at a lot of the story beats as they unfold. Abby also has a father and they both save a zebra. She totally would have sacrificed herself if she was immune. Oh, her father figure also dies. She's a piece of shit in a brutal faction that is killing other people. Oh, she finds and saves a group of kids and ends up changing for the better. Lev is Abby's Ellie and Abby is Lev's Joel. Two sides of the same coin. We have come full circle from the first game. Which is why Abby's section is the strongest part of the game because it follows the rough template of the first game.
It just ends up feeling bloated and over stays its welcome. It suffers from the whole sequel has to be bigger than the first game thing. It messes with the pacing and has too many characters that it wants you to care about in a short amount of time because of the character switches.
If anything the HBO series will probably make better work of the story it wanted to tell. I feel like it would work better as a season of TV than it does as a video game.
Playing as Abby is more fun and she has better setpeices and she can kill things with one punch.
"Abby also has a father" is such a hilarious statement. What were you even trying to say with that
100% agree. The game is extremely unsubtle and heavy handed, which is fine. Not every story needs to be nuanced and complex. I just wish the fans would accept this about the TLOU2 instead of pretending it's some incredibly nuanced, deep piece of high art.
The last part of your essay here is a bit concerning. The first TLOU takes roughly 15-17 hours to complete, adding on an extra 2 hours for the left behind dlc. The first season on HBO sped through the story in 9, 1 hour episodes, 1 being the dlc’s story. So they basically told the story in half time. Oh, and 1 episode was totally dedicated to bill and franks story instead of Joel, Ellie and Bill. So if that’s any indication, I’d dare say that the show isn’t gonna do any justice for the second games story either. Btw, I loved the show. None of what I just said is necessarily complaining about the show. Just saying that it was an awfully fast season. My only real complaint is that I wish they’d done more episodes and given more time for the ending at the firefly hospital.
@@ariel-y-e-m Both Abby and Ellie have daddy issues. Both share the same pain of that particular loss. Both are out there trying to find closure and it's disguised as revenge. Like, c'mon. The game isn't exactly subtle when it comes to all of that stuff. The game goes out of its way to tell you that not everything is as it seems and that the actions of characters you love have consequences. The us part of the last of us, you know? It wants to show you how fucked up things are from other perspectives of people trying to survive. It's why they gave the enemies names this time around. Trying to go the non black and white route. Which kind of fails. Especially in the Santa Barbara section.
I don't really agree with the argument that the game is only bleak and miserable, there is actually a lot of lightness, beauty and hope scattered throughout. Granted, several of those moments come in flashbacks, but it's not exclusive to them, e.g. the early Seattle stuff with Dina or certain parts with Lev. The birthday flashback is possibly the most beautiful scene ever created in a video game and the final flashback, as bittersweet as it is, is also stunning.
All in all, the game is going to give you a lot conflicting emotions, if you're open to it. If that's not what you're looking for, fair enough, it's probably not going to be for you. But you know, that's okay, not everything has to be for everyone.
One criticism I do agree with is the pacing. There's no question the game drags in certain areas. How much of a negative that is, is going to be different for everyone. For me it doesn't actively harm the game, I don't love it any less because of it. But it's definitely there and I get why it's a much bigger issue for others.
its is bleak, flashbacks are exactly that, meaningless back padding to the bleak and miserable, that's their point as a palette cleanser but that's the issue
@@marcusclark1339 Those flashbacks are NOT meaningless lmfao. They give extremely important context to the narrative and at regular intervals so that the story slowly begins to unfold before you. For instance, the Joel & Ellie museum flashback is not, on its own, very impactful. What makes it impactful is that we already know Joel is gone, so we appreciate every tiny moment we have with him, even if it's just a memory. That flashback wouldn't carry the same emotional weight had we not experienced Joel's death prior.
@@TheOutsider69 The museum is important because its a direct lead in to their confrontation in the next flashback at the hotel. Ellie needed to see the firefly logo with LIARS underneath because it plants the seed we see blossom when Ellie gets Joel to tell her to truth after she goes through the hospital.
Flashbacks are overuse
Literally the ones of Abby are ok because we never know her
BUT ELLIE lmaoo
My biggest gripe with the game was that they tried to retroactively make the fireflies the good guys favction to make Joels action seem as evil as possible, when in reality there are no good factions in this setting. The Fireflies of TLOU 1 are like the WLF in TLOU 2, just that one is the "science"-faction and the other is the "military"-faction. You have a few good people in it, but alot of them (especially at the top) are assholes.
First remember that the Fireflies had a deal with Joel and Tess to bring Ellie to Boston for weapons. A deal they never planned to abide by.
Second the first thing one of their "Soldiers" did after finding Joel trying to do CPR on Ellie is hitting him over the head with his rifle.
Third from the voice logs especially from Marleen we know, that they left her no choice but to accept that they kill Ellie for the brain probes. They didn´t care for either Ellie or any other of their former "patients". They also planned to kill Joel, and it was Marlene, that would have let him go, but we don´t know what orders the soldier had who was with Joel afterwards.
And from what we know from the Word of TLOU, most of it has turned to shit so even if they would have found the cure, there would have been no practical way to give it to all of what´s left of humanity.
But point 1 and 2 are enough to reason in universe for Joel to not trust them with Ellie, because they didn´t gave him any reason to.
On a meta level everything in the first game for me pointed to that they would have used the cure as a means to gain more power, like Immortan Joe in Fury Road used water to keep control over his territory.
But then again, I was probabely one of a few couple of people who were not really hyped after the anouncement of a sequel, because I found that TLOU never needed one because it had the perfect ending, like I don´t need a sequel to FFXVI.
And to be hones TLOU 2 didn´t change MY mind.
All they did was get people to look at the other side. That things aren't good and evil in real life
If u really think the game tried to say “Joel was evil” then you missed the point.
That's one thing I've seen a lot of people forget in regards to Joel killing the Fireflies in the hospital. They were escorting him away from the hospital to kill him instead of giving him the weapons as originally agreed.
@@anthonyernst999 No they just wrote a bunch of bullshit
@@TheNightman. Believe what you want
The issue with Joel's Death is not that Abbey killed him or even that he was tortured in it. It's the fact THERE IS NO WAY Joel would EVER have let down his guard and dropped his weapon when outnumbered by Abbey and her crew. The death does not feel earned; it instead feels like the only reason Joel dies is because the writers decided he needed to die.
There are any number of ways the death of Joel could have played out that would have made sense. Instead of choosing any of them, we get this garbage scene just to be shocked and provide the false narrative for the rest of the game.
Ironically, he got "fridged" as the feminist would call it when done to a female character.
Joel quite simply did not let his guard down. You could not be anymore wrong about that. For a start, Joel did very little wrong and everything you could argue he did wrong was in line with the better version of himself than the was trying to be. Tommy told Abby their names before they had any reason to suspect she had a group of heavily armed friends nearby. The only thing Joel and Tommy did wrong debatably was telling only Abby their names and rescuing her in the first place. They rescue her because they’re better people now and they tell her their names because she could’ve been a new member to Jackson, once saved. Apart from that Joel and Tommy did nothing else wrong and at every point try to either get away from the group or negotiate with them.
This doesn’t make any sense. Joel lived in Jackson for a number of years, and recruited many stray people and groups during that time, presumably without issue. He had literally no reason to believe that this group was looking for him specifically.
You guys make up a bunch of stuff about Joel in your head and then get mad.
Joel got melted down with years of living with a family and with familiar comforts. Coming from someone who was a hardened asshole, once you have a family, that shit softens you up.
Dunkey has a good point on this.
He said something like, Joel is not a psychopath you meet at the start of the game anymore, he grows to care for Ellie and in fact lets his guard down, in more ways than one.
Just started watching the video, but I thought I chime in on one part you made earlier about video games as art at around 1:58 minutes in:
Personally, I think if we want video game to be art, we have to embrace the idea that a video game shouldn't always have to be "entertaining" in order for it to be art. What's important is that it has to be interesting or do something that challenges our ideas about the world. We need to let go of the idea that we need to constantly be entertained in order for something to be worthwhile.
I don't think TLOU Part 2 completely sticks to landing, but I strongly appreciate its attempt at doing more than just "being entertaining." I'm glad the game exists for that reason. It took narrative risks and chose to be ballsy. That takes guts.
My opinion on the whole message vs fun debate is pretty simple, great games can do both. Disco Elysium, Deus Ex, Silent Hill, BioShock, all great games that both were fun to play and had strong messages. I find it disappointing some developers believe the two things are mutually exclusive.
Narrative wise, it’s not even like part 2 is super original in the sense where we focus on the antagonist for a major amount of time. I like to compare it to things like Captain America: Civil War with cap and tony, Revenge Of The Sith with Anakin and Obi Wan, or even MGS where you even play as the villain. Stories can work where you understand the antagonists perspective, but it needs to be earned. I feel like if Part 2’s narrative was just tweaked slightly and rearranged , it could have gone from polarizing to maybe even universally loved.
Honestly just rearrange some of the chapters or even making two different campaigns like how Resident Evil games did before would have made the narrative way better imo.
I think the reception would have been much better if the game started out on that flashback of Abby looking for her dad at that zoo. The game doesn’t give you enough time to like Abby as a character before she does the most shocking and polarizing thing possible.
The problem is that the narrative is separated as if it were two separate campaigns, punctuated just before the finale. It's as if you have Obi-wan's storyline, so that just before he lands on Mustafar, there's a cut and Anakin's storyline.
Or like if Tony had the first half of the movie and then Cap the second half.
Well, and somehow I've never heard that Abby's half is particularly praised.
Why is ROS there? The story fails because Anakin actions there are utterly moronic. Like have you actually watched it?
@@rali5644I think the better question is have YOU watched ROTS? Clearly you haven't if you can't see why a former SLAVE who became a Jedi only to free his mother, and then have the Jedi FAIL to free her leading to her death, and THEN have them fail to do the same for his wife, might just hold a bit of a grudge against them. Lmao
The Last of Us Part 2 is a flawed masterpiece. The only thing I could possibly say negative about it is the structure which is jarring. Other than that, I believe it is one of the more challenging pieces of storytelling I’ve ever consumed. Challenging doesn’t always mean good, but I can’t deny, it’s also made me feel feelings I’ve never experienced before playing a game. There’s something to take away from that. And I take it positively
I think the fact its jarring is what makes it so compelling. That is precisely what the developers intended. SOO many people were against Abby and rightfully so but it means that this is exactly what the developers were going for when paired with the theme of the game.
@@ThisMrMisterI agree. Whether someone sees it as a negative or not, Naughty Dog did everything with thought in it. Everything is in service of either the characters, the story, and its themes. I can’t help but commend them for being so ballsy.
@@ThisMrMister The developers wanted you to love fuck nugget, instead the fans revolted and it showed
Completely agreed@@punkrocker4life9674
I love Part 2. Honestly, there are some pacing issues but it's still an amazing game.
I’m right with you ! And the gameplay is more fun. You get a lot more stealth options to play with and the dodging mechanic was an excellent addition. Also appreciated the expansion of exploration and the verticality of the levels
@MR.__G I love that you can play completely differently with each playthrough. Stealth through and avoid as much as you can, be John Wick and kill all with no Stealth, be up close and personal, set up traps and lure people, the list goes on. My favourite is John Wicking my way through with a bit of stealth, hiding under trucks and taking out ankles before finishing them off 😄
TLOU2 isn't a bad game because it's not an escape from reality, it's just not the right game for people that don't like those kinds of games. I also agree with your pacing critiques. Thanks for the fair assessment.
I liked begrudgingly playing as Abby, only to have my viewpoint expanded by explaining why. And later found myself enjoying her as a character and her resolve, which magnificently matched Ellie's resolve. Eye for an eye. Dad for a dad. I understand people wanted feel good moments. I, however, liked tlou2. I never once found myself debating not playing the game.
W take
Fully agree screw these crybaby’s who are to immature to see both perspectives
@@Mikey.p257 I'm a crybaby for not wanting to drop $70 on a game with an awful narrative that disinterests me? Okay.
@@jordanthompson8268 No you're a cry baby for coming to that opinion without playing it lol, no actual experience means you're just a giving in to what everyone else says cos you like being part of the tribe
@@XxParadoxGameplaysxX When the game first came out I watched a playthrough with no commentary, you know, something that's been on this platform for years. I've seen the game's entire story from front to back several times. It's what has informed my decision not to ever purchase the game.
I agree that the sequel (Last of Us Part II) was probably unnecessary and the first game was already a perfectly self-contained story that didn't need a sequel... BUT... The sequel that they delivered in the Last of Us Part II is an absolute Masterpiece of storytelling and as a morality tale. It was one of the most powerful stories I've ever experienced in any medium, whether that's books, movies, TV or games. Part II had some serious balls and of course was upsetting, but it was upsetting in the way the "Red Wedding" episode was in Game of Thrones or the finale of Season 4 of Dexter was shocking with the Trinity killer. You're shocked by the story but it hits hard and actually generates emotion in you, instead of always playing it safe like almost all video games. In most games, the protagonist ALWAYS is ok in the end and always wins. And that does make it predictable and kind of boring. But not TLOU II.
To me Part 2 is a rare AAA game where it did not play it safe and took risks. In doing that though, made its flaws more apparent. Still it’s a game that does more right than wrong, and when it hits, it hits like no other game I’ve ever played. It’s a great game and very memorable for all the right and wrong reasons.
I agree, although I much prefer the story of the 1st game I give huge credits for the writers of part 2 for atleast making a story that takes risks and doesn't follow the usual Hollywood play it safe type BS
I've always said if Naughty Dog wanted the player to sympathize with abby and see both sides of the story then we needed to play abby before we play the events with Joel. We needed to see her human side and then drop the bombshell of the relationship between the characters. The way Naughty Dog introduces Abby in an irredeemable moment then asks the player to see her side was was almost narratively impossible given the emotions the player would have already experienced
you talk about these players who think Joel is a good man? really???
even the first part ended with a selfish Joel who lied to Ellie
they did the right thing...you should hate Abby at first, I hated her and I wanna kill her...but than they showed me her pov and I understand her and even liked her.
It was just bad execution and I heard that's actually how it was initially planned was to play as Abby before Joel's death.
@@la_engineerhat are you 12? This is the most pathetic and "woe is me" argument of them all. Joel saved Ellie's life and risked his own doing so and y'all just wanna say "Joel Lied🥺😢." Only people with victim mentalities think this way. This is why I can't stand Ellie because she becomes just as bad if not far worse than Joel in the second game and ends up doing the same things she judged and mistreated Joel over. And can't forget the part where she breaks down and stops talking to Joel because he lied. Smh. 😂
The only reason she was even kicking was because of Joel and she had no right to complain.
You know what while I'm ranting Joel should've just let them kill Ellie then y'all would've been crying over that.💀💀💀
If the point was to hate Abby then we never should have played her if the point was to see her side of the story then we should have been introduced to her in a less incendiary manner. After that point in the story I didn’t care what her side was. 🤷♂️
Luke milks this topic as often as Naughty Dog milks these 2 games.
My main issue is still that everything felt so forced. Joel lets his guard down so easily to get brutally murdered. Ellie kills dogs, pregnant women, becomes absolutely brutal, full of rage, combined with terrible pacing gameplay. Abby plays with dogs, cares for her friends, starts for no reason to protect two random kids which seems totally out of character for her, combined with better pacing and the more interesting gameplay sections. Then there are the countless flashbacks to give us that satisfying feeling of playing as Ellie and Joel again, even though they wanted to kill Joel off for storytelling purposes. If the writers wanted to make the protagonist/antagonist discussion less black and white, make sure to not portray the characters in black and white. Show that Abby and Ellie both can be remorseful, caring and forgiving, but at the same time also absolutely brutal, toxic and destructive.
Ellie was upset when she found out Mel was pregnant. Abby was happy when Dina was pregnant knowing she was killing both.
This was a tangent meant to seem sequential.
My biggest issues were the pacing, having the split in the middle which is only surprising the first time if you weren't spoiled, and lack of agency especially with the quick time events.
Joel can make mistakes, but the same thing could have happened with him not making mistakes if she saw his face. The game could have had moments with Ellie then switched to Abby much earlier hunting her father's killer. You don't realize until later that it's Joel. The audience still hates Abby, but understands her and essentially lead to the outcome. Switching back and forth earlier could have helped the pacing moving characters to where they needed to be then travel areas with very little around. The game is amazing, but the story and structure needed more of a collaborative effort than a single voice.
"Joel lets his guard down so easily to get brutally murdered."
I've always seen this as a crutch people use to hate what happened to him, but it makes sense within the story. Joel in part 1 is a grizzled smuggler in a containment zone where they literally hang you for your perceived crimes. Jackson isn't that, he grew soft and comfortable since the end of part 1. He's around kids and parents, not killers. And yes, he might think someone could be hunting him for what he did to the Fireflies, but what are the chances this random group is ex Fireflies and they are looking for and found the only supposed Joel left in the world?
@@alexs1640Literally like the first scene in tlou 2 confirms how joel is still as careful as ever and its bad writing to not show it if that was the case.
This game hits hard if you’re an Apocalypse Now fan. One of the best moments in gaming I’ve ever had was leaving the arcade bloater fight feeling EXHAUSTED from surviving Seattle (grounded mode).
As I drove my boat into the ocean it hit me Neil Druckman was referencing Apocalypse Now. It’s a movie based on the book, The Heart of Darkness that deals with the horrors of war, colonialism (cough cough* Scars I mean Seraphites) & how men deal with these things psychologically. Captain Willard, a vietnam soldier is sailing into the heart of darkness….deeper into the metaphorical & literal jungle of the mind. A place where no one wants to go.
When I riding those waves as Ellie, seeing the silhouette of the ferris wheel in front of the lightning as the weather became demented nearly sent me. I was like omfg Ellie is sailing into the heart of darkness. I could feel her frenzy build because I wanted Abbey gone just as much as she did. If I was a TH-camr I would make a video on it breaking down the film & Part 2 because no one talks about it. My fav part about the film community is it invites a certain type of person. Someone who’s calm, reflective & willing to look inbetween the lines of art. My least fav part about the gaming community is it invites the opposite of that type of person. That’s why you see so many kids shit on this game because Joel dead me no likey Abby muscle bad. This game deserves the respect cinema gets.
If you got this far….go watch an Apocalypse Now breakdown video with the knowledge of the game in the back of your mind. Connect the dots & have your mind blown. Replay the game with that new perspective if you want. One of the best video games of all time. It’s up there with GTA4, Ocarina of Time, ICO etc.
THIS bravo
On the off chance of you haven't played Spec Ops The Line I'd recommend it.
@@CrazyxEnigma Love that game. Fun platinum
Apocalypse Now is a snooze fest. Literally fell asleep watching it
@@Diakoidris That’s valid. My wife can’t stay awake for Godfather to save her life. The thing about incredible art is it’ll always be there, ready to influence your life when you’re ready to let it in. I’ve had albums hit me in my 30’s that didn’t do anything in my teens
Luke : “It is not okay when people spread rumors and lie about the game” Also Luke: “I understand why Naughty Dog putout misleading trailers it just makes me feel icky”
It's a blatant case of False Advertisement, and I have yet to be given a good reason why anyone should be "ok" or "cool" with.
@@chriswihuluthen you’re really not listening.
@@scruz6293 my hearing or lack thereof, is not an argument...
Please, do inform me why we should accept trailers lying to us, especially as Naughty Dog must have made two versions of the same cut scene and chose to show the one that wasn't in the game, in their "Story Trailer".
@@chriswihulu because it was additive to the experience of the game. Once I had context and saw why it was advertised the way it was i was completely sold. My expectations were gone and the game showed it was now capable of anything. The traditional story telling rules were out the window. And it was significantly better for it.
@@scruz6293 can you include that "context" cause it quite literally, just sound like you were shown a lie, found out it was a lie and wanted to see what else turned out to not be true.
If it's about the leaks, the best I can say is, it sucks that it happened, but that doesn't make it alright to pull that kind of stunt. Game trailers are given specific descriptions, as to indicate what parts of the game they show; sneak peak, first look, gameplay, story, etc.
That trailer in question, is the Story Trailer, as such, it is meant to showcase bits and pieces from the game's story. If they show scenes in that trailer, that doesn't appear in-game, in any way, then that isn't additive nor is meant to remove your expectations, it is false advertisement.
If it was meant to remove your expectations and break away from traditional story telling methods, why isn't the entire story different from what is shown in the promotional material? Why wasn't it just an Abby game, since we can now expect anything that we've been told, might turn out to be false?
No, they did this, specifically, to showcase Joel as if he was alive and part of the story, just so they could laugh in people's faces and say "lol, how dumb you are, for listening to leaks! Look, you can clearly see he isn't dead!"
If we apply your reasoning going forward, any trailer from Naughty Dog now or in the future, must have bold letters in them in every frame, saying; "any and all scenes in this trailer, may or may not have been made, purely as an 'additive to the experience' and must not be seen as an official representation of the game".
The gameplay, voice acting, graphics etc are great, but the story and characters are bad.
1. Abby conveniently finding Joel.
2. Joel standing in the middle of a room of armed strangers, putting himself in the most vulnerable position possible. He may have softened a little, but he’s not dumb, and still regularly goes out into danger.
3. Abby’s crew letting Tommy and Ellie live despite the fact one is Joel’s brother, and the other clearly cares a lot about him and threatened you all.
4. Abby’s crew wearing their WLF patches so they can be identified.
5. Maria picking Ellie and Dina, two inexperienced teenagers to travel across the country to get Tommy, rather than older and more experienced people. Plus Ellie is the most emotionally compromised person in Jackson, making Maria’s decision even more idiotic.
6. Ellie conveniently finding pictures, including names, of all the people she’s looking for.
7. Mel conveniently hiding her belly when Ellie finds her, not to mention neither she or Owen tell Ellie that she’s pregnant when that’s something I think any parent or sane person would do.
8. Abby finding Ellie’s map she conveniently drops that leads Abby right to her.
The story was full of moronic situations, and I personally didn’t like like any of the characters except Owen. And a final note, I don’t wanna play as a killer of a beloved character, let alone for nearly half the game.
@chandllerburse737 What I mean is when arriving in Jackson, she just runs into Joel, without having to do any work to find him. Regardless of if a more intelligent and sensible outcome was planned, the fact is the one the game has is bad.
That’s a negative for those games too, but at least in their case the Uncharted series is a lighthearted Indiana Jones style game. TLOU on the other hand is meant to be a very serious and realistic series. If the choices and situations can’t be taken seriously, why should the players.
@chandllerburse737 You’re not helping TLOU2 at all.
1. All stories have conveniences to a certain degree. Abby knows the town Joel lives in, they’re on the outskirts where Joel and Tommy are part of regular patrols and they bump into each other at the ski lodge. It’s established in a flashback later on that Joel and Tommy regularly go to said ski lodge on their patrols. It is a convenience, but it’s a perfectly acceptable one.
2. Tommy told Abby their names in the ski lodge before Abby suggests going to the house where her crew is held up. Going there was by far their best option for survival considering the circumstances. Seeing as they had saved her and she had helped them fight off numerous waves of infected, there’s no reason for them to suspect her real motives. Even if he was more cautious, it wouldn’t matter anyway because as mentioned before, Abby already knew who he was.
3. Well some of the crew wanted to kill them, but Abby and Owen decided not to and they were in charge. They said they felt killing them would make them as bad as Joel, which I get. Also, If you were part of a massive militia group I don’t see why you would worry about being hunted down by two people. If they were aware how dangerous they are, maybe that would have been different.
4. See above.
5. Maria didn’t pick them, she just knew that she wasn’t going to stop them. They maybe teenagers but they’ve demonstrated that they’re capable of handling themselves considering they can go on patrols. These aren’t teenagers who live in Beverly Hills, they’ve been living their whole lives in a tough, post-apocalyptic world.
6. I’ll give you that, but I don’t think it’s a story wrecking moment.
7. I think in a moment that hectic and emotionally charged it’s perfectly understandable that they’re more focussed on taking out Ellie than focussing on the pregnancy. Also Mel didn’t intentionally hide it from Ellie, she just had her coat done up because it was cold and pissing with rain.
8. Pretty convenient granted, but not egregiously so imo.
@chandllerburse737 And your comments get more and more ridiculous.
@@somanytakennames Doesn’t change the fact the timing is too perfect, with the guy she’s looking for just landing on her lap.
He’s got decades of survival experience, he wouldn’t stand in the middle of the room, leaving him extremely vulnerable. And actually if Joel was cautious, which realistically he would of been, he wouldn’t of been blindsided by Abby and could of reacted. But Neil had to butcher his character to get his revenge story going.
Except they’re already as bad as Joel, if not worse. They are part of the WLF which aren’t a nice group, that have killed innocents. They also traveled across the country and brutally tortured a man to death. Most of them, and Abby definitely considering that cutscene, would know of the relationship between Joel and Ellie, and therefore would understand why he did what he did, even if they disagree with it. Abby and Owen already talk about Jackson and how they are equipped and have a lot of people. And considering who those two people are, especially Tommy, they should fully expect that it wouldn’t be just two people, when those people belong to a well organised group living in a massive city.
Nope, their actions and decisions are hypocritical and moronic.
She is the leader, she is more than capable of containing Ellie like Tommy asked her to do. Instead she just lets her go, the most emotionally compromised person in the town. What makes her think Ellie of all people would find Tommy, and then say “ok now let’s go back home” rather than join him on the revenge mission. It’s ridiculous. Sending better and more experienced men who aren’t messed up emotionally is the sensible choice.
Course not, but it doesn’t do the story any favors when crucial information like that just falls into your hands so easily.
How is it? She has a gun pointing at them. Trying to take her on instead of saying something that could save your life or even give her pause for you to act, is stupid. It’s precisely why they both died. And it’s only raining in some parts of their location, as where they are standing it’s perfectly dry.
No, but once again it’s all too neatly wrapped in a bow. If she found her through tracking, or making intelligent deductions it could make the whole thing fine.
The last of us 2 is such a weird thing for me. I started off hating the hell out of it. Nowadays I'm kind of in the middle, but not in the way you think. When someone criticizes it, I come to its defence. When someone says they love it, I have a list of reasons why they shouldn't. I've never played a game where my opinion is so uncertain. I don't know if I like it, dislike it, or just neutral.
yara and lev are incredible characters, genuinely. i loved every second of them on screen and wanted to learn so much more
They are BY FAR the most realistic characters in a gaming history, Imagine the world collapses, everyone fighting for resources, zombies, cannibals, etc and some USA kids made a tragedy about being missgendered and run away from their parents 😅
@@et2k166 that was NOT what happened??
Not by a mile. want to see complexity in characters check out the mass effect series. look at Jin Sakai and his uncle shimura from GOT. So many more well written characters in gaming then a little Ellie knockoff
My thoughts: It had really satisfying combat/exploration. The gore system was amazing, with crazy details going into the sound quality and animations.
I actually wish we had more of those big open areas in seattle, where we could explore various buildings, finding secrets etc. We had like one big area at the start of seattle, then it got fairly linear after that.
I actually thought the big open area in seattle was the most boring part of the game. The rest was perfection and the story made it a masterpiece
@@Nicholas_Vthts a pretty hot take, there’s so much side stuff to do there
@@architdewan6717 He's obviously trolling!
@@takemeseriouslyplx2124 I’m definitely not trolling.. I thought that area was the most boring part of the game. It was still fine though but it was just a lot of exploring and puzzles. A lot of people say the pacing was bad in Abby’s part. I actually think the pacing is bad for Ellie’s part and especially in the Seattle area. I like Abby’s part better
@@Nicholas_Vhow can it be boring if there was so much to do, hell one of the most heart worthy moments was a complete side thing in Seattle Downtown. I don’t wanna spoil but search up Ellie singing in Seattle
TLOU2 is supposed to be dark and gritty , definitely not an upbeat good time. There's an M on the box for a reason. You play for the story, the quality, the gameplay, the spectacle, and those things are leagues above the rest of the industry.
I absolutely want a part 3. What we need is more developers like naughty Dog to make games for casual gamers
It's not dark and gritty, it's a hilarious horribly written garbage that could have been written by an edgy 13 year old in a basement.
😂
@@ash8244 Must be why it's one of the highest decorated games in existence right? You sound more like a jealous fanboy than didn't even get to experience it, much less understand it. It's the most emotional game I've ever played. I'd dare to argue it's the most emotional game ANYONE has ever played. It's SUPPOSED to make you feel uncomfortable. That's what casuals don't understand.
@@B-U-T-C-H-E-Rit isnt but sure buddy , check up on your stats
@@RonhozZ It's among the highest decorated video games out there. Luke even makes mention of that fact in this video
I think my biggest issue with part 2 is that the first game although having great writing and characters you actually gave a shit about was built off a foundation based around the relationship between Ellie and Joel. The writers of two forgot that although the game would’ve been good nonetheless due to how well the writing was, what made it GREAT was these two characters and how the built off of each other and were directly a part of each others arcs. So when the second game came out, and we see them hating each other all of a sudden and then the main character of the first game getting brutally murdered by someone we are forced to play as for multiple hours AFTER the fact, people were rightfully pissed off.
It's not "rightfully" if I'm not the target of the product it's not the product's fault, because whoever is has understood everything very well, I don't go under Mario Kart games and say "they're things for children, what do I do with this dumb thing?" no I just don't play it and I understand that it has more value to other people, that's why this is a "non-criticism".
This industry is evolving along with the people who use it, it is stupid to give credit to these people who hate anything that is not made for them.
They didn't forget anything. That relationship had hard lies attached to it, and because of that, the consequences followed. Yall don't understand what good writing is if that's the excuse being attached to it. Joel was not a good person and he lied to Ellie after she confronted him about the truth. Everything that follows is a direct result of that. It's how real relationships work. Their relationship being good and happy is not a crutch meant to carry a franchise.
People can be mad, sure, but it was deserved. Anyone trying to say that's bad writing lacks a comprehensive understanding of what character motivations are and how consequences have repercussions.
I think Joel dying made sense but it’s the forcing the player to play as Abby that didn’t. Also the constant cycle of Ellie’s revenge felt like it dragged on too long
@@noahverstynen8091 this is because there is something more important behind revenge, but I understand that for some it is too difficult.
Correct. But that's how it should be. Cause and effect.
I hated Abby for what she did. Playing as her was hard. But as I saw things from her POV I started to realize she wasn't the bad guy and she did exactly what anyone else would do. If some super likeable guy killed your dad would you let him off the hook because he's super likeable? "My pleasure Joel, murder my family whenever you want". Or would you track him down and get revenge? This world is very much a revenge world and not a forgive and forget world.
The second game is mainly great because of the combat and attention to detail. It's a stunning feat. But it's also great because it shows you the world from different points of view. There is no good guy and no bad guy. There is cause and effect and that's it.
So by the end I was on Abby's side, even though I'm the first person who would have killed her dad to save ellie.
99 % of great writers write a LOT. Saying "the good writer write enough" is just a naive statement. It's something an inexperienced reader or a beginner literature professional would say.
My problem was never what happened but rather how it’s done. If you had two brain cells going into part 2 you knew Joel was going to die. Then he dies and I felt nothing, it just happened. That happens multiple times through out the story. Then there’s conveniences that would make CW show runners blush. There’s the 10 hour flashback right at the climax. The changed firefly context from vaguely terrorist cell freedom fighters to out right good guys that were definitely going to give everyone a fungal vaccine extracted by a veterinarian in a fallen hospital. Ellie seeing no nuance that she wasn’t asked about the surgery because she was unconscious. Joel being soft after decades of survival instinct driven living. Ellie being utterly un-like-able and unrecognizable from the first game. I mean I can go on and on. There’s the ending that would’ve maybe worked for a play or something but doesn’t fit the video game platform or the story told prior. Then all of us that genuinely thought the game was amateurly constructed were called all kinds of different bigots, that was a real spit in the face after already ruining something we were so into. There’s plenty of great sad ending, bleak, revenge tales out there and this ain’t one of em, which really hurts because TLOU is my favorite game of all time.
🤓
That's a you problem
@@lukescrew1981 yeah….hence “my problem” being the first 2 words brainiac
why everyone says joel's death was expected, for me it wasnt. why it would be. till that game naughty dog didnt really kill their main characters.
Game was great. It’s the story that most were pissed about. We could understand Abby’s anger but still hated her for what she did. It’s like Naughty dog gave us a million dollars with the first game then with the second game they also gave us a million dollars but also gave us Aids. I can’t be the only one that tried to throw Abby off every cliff you walked by after she did what she did.
incrediblly well put. also yes re:Abby and clifs
aren't there compilations of people trying to kill Abby while playing as her, that was the case a few months after the game came out if I recall corectly?
@@chriswihulu not that I remember other than it wouldn’t let you.
@@baddreams123451 I mean, it let you, you just got sent back to the last save point. Same with Ellie killing Abby's dog, you have to do that in a Quick Time Event, go back to repeat the section all over again.
@@chriswihulu it’s been awhile since I played it. I thought the cliff stopped you. I’ll have to try it in the remaster next week.
That depressing aspect of the game is what I really loved about it. I can get it is not for anyone but this is great to have that kind of story made that well.
way I see it: P1 is a dessert, and P2 is an entree.
The problem with this game is that I don't think the story was done well. It's such a bog-standard and easy story to do and they somehow fucked up the pacing.
To me Part 2 felt like a part 3, we should've had some actual time with Joel and Ellie post part 1, and take time introducing us to Abby her dad and their perspective of the events of part 1, leading into a less rushed properly expressed part 3
This is sooo true and I hope that this is what they do with the tv show. The game's pace as a problem and the fact that they had a character that we did not know a single thing about kill such a beloved character and then making us play as her when that was the last thing anyone wanted to do.
Hell no, you are supposed to hate Abby in the beginning. You dehumanize the other side and see them as evil.
I love TLOU2 but this actually would have been an interesting approach
Yeah no
Trying to defend this game is like trying to defend a criminal who is clearly guilty it sickens me that people like this game
Joel instantly became dumb was so unreal
It was the stupidest thing ever. Hey stranger, "My name is Joel Miller and this is my brother Tommy Miller."
@txup92g33 Tommy told Abby their names. Not Joel.
Also it's literally 5 years inbetween Part 1 and 2 where Joel spends his time recruiting people outside of Jackson and taking them in. If you can't believe Joel can't change in 5 years you missed the point of Part 1 where he changes completely from start to finish in just a few months.
@@misterhoobomaster Joel gaves his name. Literally the cutscene proves you wrong.
@@misterhoobomaster All that supposed change during those 4 years (yeah it's 4, not 5) happened off screen, no one can definitively prove that such change has really happened. Ideally in a well written story you would gradually show and set up such a character change to the audience, and not let them write the story for you and just assume that it has maybe happened.
@misterhoobomaster you're right on the Joel part, but Tommy saying their first names was idiotic nonetheless
Permitting logical and narrative inconsistencies to fit one’s broader desire to like something whilst using the same failed criteria to roast something they don’t isn’t in depth analysis. It’s simply lazy
I think that while The Last of Us: Part II had a good idea for a story, the execution was so monumentally poor that it comes across as very disingenuous and very hostile to people that weren't connecting to the hemes. The whole transition to Abby at the climax of Ellie's story was so jarring and completely removes the players from the emotional beat. Not only that but the writers are telling you revenge is bad throughout the whole story but for some reason they justify Abby's revenge. I don't remember Abby ever feeling remorse over killing Joel, all she really shows is reluctance to killing Ellie.
My idea for how this story should play out is tell both Abby and Ellie's story at the same time, breaking everything into chapters and alternating playing both characters. Abby's storyline begins with her planning to kill Joel and ending with her finally committing the act of killing Joel. Ellie's storyline begins with her trying to find Abby and ending with her catching up to her. This reserves the emotional beats at the end of their respective storylines and the whole theme of revenge being bad would be that much more effective because Joel's death and retribution would be back to back.
Throughout their storylines, each character would show their uncertainty, Abby with following through with killing Joel and Ellie grappling with how far she is going to get revenge. It preserves the theme so much more.
But the story we got was so broken and disjointed that the interesting story was so hidden behind so many nonsensical story points and confusing structure.
Honestly the Pacing, the sense of dread and the emotionally draining aspect was what i loved about it 😂. It felt so real.
I also loved the emotionally draining aspect a lot but the pacing is horrible for me
I did not notice the pacing at all. Completely engrossed.
You haven't been through any harsh realities then. This game is not realistic in its depiction really at all lol
@@theincrediblefella7984 the aspect of life isn't always fair, and stupid things just happen sometimes.
1:45 that is such a limiting discussion. There is absolutely no reason video games can’t be both. Either one or the other or both combined. Video games are the most interactive, and perhaps expansive form of entertainment and art.
There is no logical reason to limit and gatekeep what they can and cannot be besides some Joe schmoes on the internet yelling “ I don’t want muh video games to be like this or like that.”
What I find wild, is that everyone acknowledges that this game has some of the best graphics, sound design, voice acting, and really anything that involves presentation, ever. It also has one of the best stealth combat gameplay ever. Some of the best AI ever...so it essentially is one of the best in every category, except not everyone likes its story.
Which is fine, but there is no way marking the game a 3 out of 10 or something makes sense. Objectively speaking, it's at least a 7. Due to how incredible it is in so many areas.
Except it is a 3/10 or less. Everything else is just built upon what was already there, you should expect that shit at bare minimum and then to be carried up by the story. The story is so fucking dogshit it dragged it down
@@TheNightman.No, this is you being emotional and unable to look at things objectively
Metal gear solid 5 has way better stealth gameplay and way better ai.
I almost feel guilty and ashamed or even dumb that I love tlou2 because of the controversy and heavy criticism it gets. I loved the acting, gameplay, cinematography, soundtrack, sound design, themes, tone, it’s darkness, it’s somberness, it’s humanity and yes it’s story. I do agree that it’s got pacing and structure issues, but I just can’t not love it and sometimes find it hard to understand why it got so much hate and heavy criticism.
it often gets labeled as a “revenge bad” story, but I wholeheartedly disagree. I think it’s a story about grief, guilt, shame, depression, empathy, self destruction, love, hate and ultimately forgiveness.
I don't like the game at all but don't feel ashamed for liking it. Nobody but you has any right to decide what you like people telling you you're wrong for liking it can be promptly told to f*ck off. We can debate if it's good or bad but enjoyment is subjective to each individual and should stay that way.
You are in fact emotionally mature insightful and intelligent.
My problem with this game is the gaps...
1) why among a bunch of militia men people would send a pregnant woman to dangerous situations for example...
2) Joel's death was rushed and he acted totally as if he was not him when he meet Abby .
3) Tony was totally schizofrenic and imbecile while in the first game he was smart and more balanced as Joel
(Thanks the HBO series has made him already a little bit stupid so we can swallow this crap)
His name is Tommy. Not Tony lmfao
That first point is just such a "WHYYY!!!" Moment to me. I had the same reaction in Wolfenstein the New Colossus, where if you know the last scene with your "Baby mama", you know what mean 😂😂😂
Yeah I love the game but I also think the Mel being out while pregnant is dumb lol@@chriswihulu
@@misterhoobomaster It just comes off as some kind of message and I can't even say for sure, what message that is or if it even is one.
Plus, she's also a medic, that alone should be enough to give her a lifetime pass from active duty in the field, like, come on!
@@chriswihuluI’m pretty sure was just being transferred to another base as a medic and got ambushed.
Legitimately my only grievance with this game is the way Joel dies. It’s not even the fact that he dies, but how. It seemed so out of character, and contrived. Everything else, including the narrative framing and themes, is masterful.
What about the pacing of the story? Don't you consider it kinda weird that just as the conflict with Abby is heating up, we suddenly have to play as her for the next 8 hours before resuming that conflict? In a storyline that has barely anything to do with Ellie's and could've been it's own game or DLC?
Joel changing a little bit in 5 years of recruting people outside of Jackson is not strange.
Joel changed DRAMATICLY through out Part 1 too (that's the entire point) in not even 1/5th of that time.
Tommy has recruited people for Jackson for even longer and is used to introducing himself to recruit them into Jackson.
That's why HE does it so easily to Abby (No it wasn't Joel)
>out of character and contrived
If you weren't paying attention to what was unfolding on screen, then sure.
The way he died was consistent with the tone of the series i.e. brutal and miserable. People who say "oh it's not the fact that he died it's HOW he died" always propose some corny-ass shit as alternative like "he should have BRAVELY sacrificed himself, taking out MULTIPLE infected and militiamen to save Ellie's life" or some saccharine nonsense like that
There wasn't anything out of character about it
my only problem with the game (and personally what I believe should've been an incredibly crucial detail to show) is Joel's paranoia of strangers (such as when he ran over that one guy who was faking being hurt, or the fact he left a family on the side of the road when the apocalypse barely began) being completely gone in TLOU2. I understand that if someone lives in a specific environment for an extended period, someone gets accustomed to that lifestyle, but all I wanted was for them to SHOW it through visual storytelling or through a showing of a change in demeanor from Joel.
The story structure is also a bit of a mess but it wasn't as god-awful as people made it out to be, but it was a problem nonetheless and I felt that the story could've/should've been formated similarly to how "Gone Girl" was.
Regardless I'm still getting the remake because the game overall is still incredible and personally made me fall in love with it, flaws included.
honestly I get that point but I also think think a big reason on why his guard was down because this time he was with a community of people and surronded by actual friends and family. I think living with people you care about plus in a protected community kind of forced him to be softer as he was not in constant threat anymore.
@@blindstargoogly7448 yeah I agree but I wish they showed it more clearly rather than expecting the player or watcher (when the second season of the live action comes out) to assume that’s what happened, with a simple scene of showing Joel welcoming new people in or in the same way you saw the grandpa in “Up” age but use that to show how the community in TLOU2 grew to that scale while making Joel a focus in that.
@@blindstargoogly7448that's not realistic to real veterans they're still alert 😊
No one ever considers that he was just trying to save a woman’s life and then found himself escaping a horde with her and ends up in a room full of strangers. He and Tommy were outnumbered - there was no point in being paranoid because there was nothing he could have done if they wanted to hurt/rob/kill him
@@nottomboyd the first time Joel meets Henry and Sam he was willing to kill Joel in the same way that Henry was willing to kill Joel which literally illustrated that this paranoia isn’t just Joels. You can’t have the paranoid strong old man being killed without that paranoia playing into the narrative or at the very least showing change in order to say “he feels safer in this world now, and he is much more trusting of strangers and people he doesn’t know in general”. I think ignoring everything that happened in tlou1 is a but reductive of what/who Joel is and reducing him to “he was just trying to save a girl” especially with the back catalog of shown paranoia and trauma he’s had throughout the story is a bit reductive of the character. And during the sequence specifically prior to getting inside the house they were in, im shocked there wasn’t any “where you guys going?” after being told they were just “passing through” or questioning the odd demeanors of Abby and Owen talking to the side or simple curiosities someone (paranoid or not) might have about people camped right outside their base
I am just starting the video, but just gonna throw in my thoughts.
- My main issue is the setting vs. logic/set character points. We see things like a medic which is pregnant get sent to the front, we see Joel blindly trusting strangers and following them and lowering his guard etc. Which one can argue that makes sense after being there for so long, but I cannot personally see him changing that much.
- And I agree with Nakey Jakey another creator talking about this game, that when they killed Joel, my expectations flew to the roof, and them not succesfully meeting them lessen the experience as a whole, not to mention I was not sold on his death, so the whole revenge plot in itself I struggled to really vibe with so to speak, and when you are not sold on those things from the get-go, what you do down the lane is just "meh" more or less, at least to me.
- Ellie became the most dispicable character ever, not just because of her deeds per-se throughout.
- GODDAMN FLASHBACKS! I legit got confused at one point wondering where or when tf we were at one point. I despise flashbacks as a main story telling method, it is legit annoying and to me it feels lazy more than anything, instead of building character there and then, we dial back to when they are younger to get sympathy points, that is how it feels to me.
I see what they were going for, I know there is great potential in this kind of story, but the execution is just all over the place.
To me TLOU2 never happened, and only the first one was ever released, I never wanted a second game tbh, I like how it ended.
lol
I have my gripes with the story. Personally I really wanted to play as only ellie. But the thing that always makes me come back to this game is simply the gameplay. Its too polished and satisfying to not go back and play through.
Thats exactly what I said! The 1st game is definitely the best story wise but gameplay wise part 2 blows the 1st game out of the water
Not interested in the remaster . I think just playing the game once, was more than enough. I’m curious to see how season two of the show is gonna turn out to be. Especially with Kaitlyn Dever, portraying Abby
Remaster*
Thanks thats what I meant
I think you actually need to play it multiple times to really grasp the story. I don’t believe it’s a good thing that multiple playthroughs are necessary, but that’s still the case.
I was completely Meh about the game to be honest. But I can see why it was so polarizing. Me personally there were way too many characters that I was supposed to care about but didn’t and the game was simply too long in my opinion. I loved the focused, shorter story of the first game. As far as Joel, didn’t mind what happened but the timing probably could have been done better.
17:20 but who in the last of us story is in the right?? Who??? No one is written with clear morals in that story because most likely the good hearted ones died.
The only characters which we written with a sense humanity is Joel and Ellie. Ellie was abandoned by her mother, her friend etc Everyone either want to hurt her or use her, everyone except for Joel. Joel didn’t even care about the world, he just wanted his tools. The fireflies used this as a crux to have him carry Ellie. He fought so hard not to get close to her but she won him over. He then realizes the hope through Ellie and Ellie realized her meaning of self through him.
It’s not our fault these characters were wrote this way. If Marlene and co or anyone else were written this way, it would have been the same love from fans.
Joel and Ellie’s story was a peek humanity. A father and and a child is the pinnacle to human love and purpose. We all naturally understand this bond because it’s a bond which has existed since the birth of our history.
Who would care about the world when the world is only self serving and takes away our love and hope. The world only care about the masses because only the masses can feed it. Joel lost everything to the world. So should he have also sacrificed his only remaining cherishment to the cold grasp of the world???
two things rub me the wrong way about this game.
1. if it wasnt for the insane graphics, it would get roasted a lot more
2. developers are massive hypocrites. you have exactly two options in this game - kill folks or sneak around them. everything else is done for you or you are forced to smash button X to kill someone or mission failed, and then the game expects you to feel bad. "wow dude look at this poor dog we forced you to kill, truly terrible this cycle of violence innit" and after all the talk about confronting ludonarrative dissonance they spit in your face by not even giving you the CHOICE to execute Abby at the end, which at least would have forced the player to reflect on the whole thing a bit, but no - again they take control away from you.
This is on point ☝️
Like, why make killing random NPC's into such an emotional experience, if it has literally no impact on the story. NakeyJakey had a perfect example from Metal Gear(can't recall which ATM) where you're confronted with the ghosts of all the people you've killed in the game thus far. He even shows, they had a perfect setup for such a scene, when Abbey goes to a Morgue and a body bag is opened, not showing someone you've killed, but a guy you have only heard about up until now. What if the Morgue was a real reflection of how many Ellie had killed up until this point and it actually reflected, what you did when killing some of them.
TLOU 2 has really simple stealth mechanics /gamplay everything is done better years ago in MGS 5
Part 2 stealth was inspired by MGSV. It was even gonna have the "freeze/hands up/hold up mechanic" at first but it got scrapped.
No idea what the point of this video is. The reasons many hate the game, especially the story, are well known and there's no convincing them that they are wrong when it comes to their issues with Naughty Dog's narrative decisions.
This game has nothing to prove to anyone man i dont get what youre trying to say.
Honestly, this story isn’t insane. As much I’d hate to admit it, almost every decision these characters make are accurate with what THEY would actually do. This is the story of how Ellie became a broken woman in a relentless world.
I love it for what it is. Because no matter how emotionally and physically draining this game is, it impacted its player in a way no other video game could. it’s why we still talk about it. It’s not perfect, but it doesn’t need to be.
Wrong opinion.
@@Commentsurveillance opinions are opinions are opinions are opinions are opinions are opinions so on and so forth
It is an incredible game and I felt emotions playing it that I have never felt playing any other game. I love both Ellie and Abby and cannot wait for the 3rd game.
The gameplay is amazing the graphics are as well but you cannot convince me this game has great writing
Druckmann has overstayed his welcome imo
It has great concepts and themes definitely, and it's true that it was bold to write the story the way they did. But the execution certainly was lacking in many ways.
Yeah, leaks sucks, but there is still that issue with the "Story Trailer" which was released around a month and half before the game, which is quite literally False Advertisement.
Like, that is the biggest issue to me, overall, because we now have a perfect example of outright lying, to try and sell a product, which isn't something we should ever allow or be "ok" with.
For anyone who doesn't know what trailer I'm talking about, try and look it up and tell me what is wrong with it, cause it's pretty glaring what they did, just so they could "Disprove Leaks".
😂 even for someone who likes the story, the bait in the trailer went a bit too far.
@@suisinghoraceho2403 thank you. Since I didn't even play it, I try not to talk about the story or anything like that, but I don't think it should be such a controversial thing, to say that we shouldn't see any developer, big or small, pull a stunt like Naughty Dog did.
I seriously think the gaming community as a whole, should be able to support that stance, but most just sum my complaint up as some kind of criticism of the game. That, or they call me names.
So thx again for being reasonable, glad you liked the game and can be reasonable when I complain about the Marketing. 😁👍
@@chriswihulu It’s a sad thing people rarely read your stuff let alone try to get what you are saying these days.
@@suisinghoraceho2403 I have pretty much resigned myself to dying on this hilltop, might be a lonely existence, but I just can't support the developer or the game for that reason, even though I loved the first game to bits!
Hopefully, they can make another game I can support and enjoy in the future, but it just ain't gonna be this game.
@@chriswihulu Betrayal is the worst type of hurt. And no disrespect to Jessie (I really like him as a fellow Asian), but swap him out for Joel in the trailer is one step too far. That said, it’s usually a different team doing the marketing and developing the game.
The writing or more importantly, the execution was absolutely atrocious. The first game had a super basic run of the mill story that was executed to literal perfection, elevating a basic story and making it incredibly memorable on top of an amazing cast. The second game had a much, much more interesting story was executed woefully. Add an incredibly boring cast, and you get a bizarre game that has amazing gameplay being held up on story, characters, pacing (this was awful), and to make it all worse, they removed the MP section in which the first game had for $.
Honestly, I think people would have less issues with TLOU2's narrative if it didn't take itself so frigging seriously.
Every game has "ludonarrative dissonance" issues, every game makes the player do things that come into direct conflict with the narrative in some way, but very few of them take themselves as serious as TLOU2.
And since the game is so very obviously trying to be important and tackle themes in a very serious and grandiose artsy way, all the narrative issues become exponentially bigger. I wouldn't mind the fact that I'm killing people violently by the hundreds, and having a blast doing it btw, if the game didn't try so heavily to tell me the violence cycle perpetuated by both protagonists by them dehumanizing each other was successfully broken in the end when they let each other live. The heck does that cycle of violence even matter anymore after I've killed so many people and started so many other cycles of violence anyway?
All that being said, my biggest issue with TLOU2 by far is the pacing. I can very easily overlook all the issues I have with TLOU2's narrative (even besides the one I mentioned previously), but the pacing is just atrocious. Every time I think about replaying it, I get preemptively tired by all the boring stuff I'll have to go through to enjoy the good stuff. The beginning is so meandering, switching perspectives so many times right off the bat, then so many flashbacks along the game, so much walking and talking, so many pointless looting sections, and then the game restarts in the middle to focus on a character you haven't played as, or even seen for hours, with a completely different set of characters, halting my progression right at the peak of the narrative tension, frankly, I get tired just talking about it.
I think season 2 has the chance to do a lot better as a show. A problem with the game is u had to do all the stuff urself. It made u feel just terrible at times. The show might be better with that and the narrative thing where u kill a bunch even tho the theme is about the cycle of violence. Idk I’m just ranting but someone explain it better if u can
It might but also a lot of the story was based on you playing and doing XYZ. Your supposed to feel taxed and worn down by the end becayse you’ve seen so much and played it. I don’t know how much will translate for a show but flipping between characters and perspectives probably will work better as they divide the story into digestible hour chunks vs a 30 hour game you can take your time moving through
That’s kind of the point though, that’s what makes video games special and that’s why this game is historic. We’ve all seen shows and movies like this, but actually playing a game where you play as the antagonist is unique to video games
I love the gameplay ( mostly the combat parts), the animations and environments. Story definitely let me down but I don’t hate it as much anymore honestly. Its so damn fun to kill people in this game its so strange. I love the combat and the animations more than anything.
The combat is far and away the game's greatest strength. Especially the combat vs humans w dogs
Agreed. The combat and the new enemies were amazing. The story was Ok. It wasn't Shakespeare and it didn't have to be. It's just a video game.
Well they went from a decent story in the first game with exceptional character development. To a teenage drama which alienated half of the fan base. This is why you got people who love and people who hate it.
When you smash a fucking battle axe into the body of a living breathing human being, the game does a tremendous job of conveying the weight, rage and gravitas of that act. Or when u ram a dirty rusty shiv into your victims neck it feels so visceral and well "real" in TLOU II. Like yeah this is steel cutting through flesh making a person bleed out. Or that steel pipe I pummel people with is breaking all of the bones in their face. How the blows connect and the animations are flawless plus how the camera shake underlines the weight of the action it's so amazingly satisfying and yet terrifying.
Nooo :( that's wrong!! The whole point of tlous2 is violence is bad and you're terrible for liking those things
(Or so Neil hoped)
The worst part for me is that they start out with typical last of us moral greyness, where everyone is just kind of a dark brutal person and very few step into genuine good or evil, before they then ruin this trying and failing to create a clear right and wrong in the dynamic.
Abby killing Joel isnt treated as an act of evil its just sort of "well, he killed her dad and was no saint himself so something like was bound to happen sooner or later", Joel's murder isnt framed as a good thing because he was a bad person, Ellie isnt initially treated like a bad person for her brutality. Which is good, thematically appropriate and morally sensible...........and then they go and force abby to have a really unnecessary redemption arc (where she doesnt even learn any lesson that would make her reconsider her actions) and now she's apparently supposed to be a good person just in time to fight Ellie.
Its simultaneously painfully shallow and also really confusing what they were trying to say with her entire section of the game, Neil I didn't need this woman to be "redeemed" to understand her, I would've done the exact same thing if Joel killed my dad it made sense as is.
Abby is clearly struggling with what she did to Joel for her entire section of the game. There are so many things that show this. One example would be her sleeping poorly on a consistent basis until she saves Yara and Lev, at which point she finally wakes up peacefully. Along with this, Abby is never painted as “a good person” during her fight with Ellie. You are not supposed to be rooting for either her or Ellie. The Last of Us, Parts I and II, are both stories about love and the power that it holds. Whereas Part I puts an emphasis on the good forces that love can bring, Part II focuses more on the bad forces that love can bring. When Ellie and Abby finally fight in the theater, it is meant to show the sheer impact that love can have on people, as it has led the two of them to such a dark and brutal place.
did we play the same game? in what world what abby did to joel was indicted as good in the game? you can sympathize with her and understand her motives, does not mean it was morally right lol.
@@nickhoadley6789 I picked up on what you're describing during their rematch, but during the theater fight if that was the intent it didnt come across that way to me at all. Maybe if they had you switching between the two characters for different sections of the fight that may have illustrated that idea better, but as it stands it seemed to portray abby as the more righteous of the two right up until the end and even then she leaves the fight in a much better position than Ellie does and I dont think that was an accident.
@@fionn2220Idk, I feel like you are misconstruing who has the upper hand and who is viewed as "winning" as who is right or wrong. I personally don't think the story makes any of the clear statements that you're suggesting. That's like saying that Naughty Dog thought Joel was morally right at the end of the first game just because he "won".
@@anastasiiaiurkova8897 I said the opposite of that? That her actions werent portrayed as evil or righteous just sort of the expected outcome of Joel's actions and their impact on Abby. I also disagree, of course you dont have to see her as morally right, but I do and I dont even like her very much. Joel killed her dad and (debatably) doomed humanity, as far as im concerned she had every right in the world to get her revenge on him. How long it took was a bit over the top but if someone killed my dad with a scalpel I would hope Id be even worse so its not very relevant to me.
The most painful thing for me was: Vaccine/hostpital situation... there is 0 explanation why Jerry wanted to do so quickly the operation... there is 0 profess that the operation would give us vaccine (which where I found out that there is no such thing as a vaccine against the fungus in our modern world and TLOU world stuck in 2013 medically so it should be impossible) which make this thing a just a plot to talk about if Joel doomed the world or not... and the situation that Ellie don't know that Marlene order to kill Joel if he started something and that she didn't figure it out that she was unconscious and no one asked her and she blamed Joel for making the decison but in reality it was Abby father and Merlene - that one was painful because then we have flashback with Abby that "she would sacrificed herself for the world if she would be on Ellie position" but there is a plot hole here: Abby DECIDED and Ellie DIDN'T... xD
Nobody who wrote for the first game bothered to ask any scientists if this was even possible but even if it was and we ignore that fact the first game paints the picture of the Fireflies being no better than FEMA they're incompetent terrorists with delusions of grandeur hoping by holding the vaccine they'd get to be on top, the restoration of a pre apocalypse was nothing but a dead dream at that point. The Fireflies didn't really know what they were doing and Ellie would've likely died for nothing.The first game ends on a great note of ambiguity and players have discussed what they would do in Joel's shoes and if it was right etc.
Druckmann and part 2 retroactively decided Joel was not only completely in the wrong but the Fireflies would've succeeded in their endeavor so Joel 100% doomed humanity instead of the first game never saying that it was a 100% guarantee they'd have succeeded. An irritating retcon that was entirely unnecessary it doesn't matter if the Fireflies would've succeeded Joel killed Abby's dad and that's why she went after him.
If you're the kind of person that plays video games for fun gameplay, then you shouldn't have a problem with this. It's one of the most well made stealth action games of all time. Graphics, controls, set pieces, gore, tension, enemy AI, are all the best it gets. The story isn't even unexciting or poorly acted. It just isn't what people expected. To me, that's a completely stupid reason to hate something.
I believe that's detrimental considering the game actually wants you to feel horrible about killing, but it's the most polished part of the game and the only objectively fun part, that's like another failure of the game
@@deadmeme4276 the horror elements and creature design/AI are objectively fun. You're not supposed to feel bad about killing those. Really there are just a handful of people you're meant to feel bad for killing, and even then it's them or you from a narrative perspective.
Whenever people try to highlight the gameplay of Part 2 as the selling point, it really tells me that they have either never played any Metal Gear Solid game (especially the third game) or maybe played through them once and never touched them again.
And the MGS games aren't perfect. The first two haven't aged well control-wise, but the third and fourth games? Pretty damn good and they do a lot of the mechanics that TLoU2 attempts much better.
It’s funny there’s always the film debates between people who’s favorite films are Citizen Kane, Goodfellas, and any best picture nominated film and those who’s favorites are Star Wars, Jurassic park, James Cameron. I enjoy both sides equally and I think TLOU2 can kickstart a trend where we have games that reach levels like the first list (not to say the first list is inherently superior just because it’s "deeper")
TLoU 2 has terrible writing that appears like good writing to stupid people
I think the narrative, when taken as a whole, is not good at all... but a lot of the individual parts are good. The gameplay is tense, realistic, and unapologetically brutal. The character animations are the best I've seen in a game. The linear level design is incredible. The environments are beautifully detailed. World-building and atmosphere are also excellent. I think most people made up their minds about the game before it was released, or when Joel died. As far as the woke stuff, it was definitely in there, but they don't beat you over the head with it like media does today. It was tolerable to me.
yea dude totally. a "woman" in a post apocalyptic setting that looks like a flesh golem is not "beating you over the head" at all.
The guy really sounds like Bob Odenkirk, I was shocked how his voice sound almost like Saul :)
They could have wrote off joel without killing him Abby could have seriously injured him to the point he is useless in a fight, anyway I think if they had let the players play as Abby first up to the joel encounter then you play as Ellie and you stay as Ellie after Joel's death now you have a more enjoyable plot to at least playthrough
Honestly when the first game happened I called bulshit that he just walked away from all of that scot-free. So I kind of felt Justified when he got killed in such a way during part 2. Also makes me think about how in life sometimes people go out not how they want to go out but rather in almost a cheated way. That's just life and I was actually impressed that they did it the way they did
I wasnt surprised Joel got killed he did too much to not have that outcome despite his reason for doing so either however a part of me love to think about if joel survived the encounter but waa changed in a permanent way seeing Ellie being driven by revenge and getting lost in that is a punishment in itself
The story wouldn’t work if Joel survived. There is no chance Abby would have left Wyoming with him still alive, there’s no chance Ellie would’ve gone after her if he was still alive, and there’s no chance the player would’ve saw red enough if he was alive still. Joel’s death is literally the only way this whole story could get put into motion. It had to happen
@@nickhoadley6789 the story could still work Abby is driven by revenge she could very easily be satisfied if she gave joel brain damage or crippled him even if she didnt kill him. She hates what Joel has done even if she didnt succeed in killing him the fact that joel will never be able to defend himself in a zombie apocolypse is a fate worse than death. The thing is that they were other ways Naughty dog could have wrote off Joel as a character I know killing off a character is always the most popular solution but sometimes it might not be the right choice when it comes to a story that is about hate and how that changes you. Ellie would have still wanted to go after Abby after she damn near beat Joel to death and made her watch, the events of the game still happen but this time instead of ellie seeing joel when she lets Abby go she looks at lev while she is strangling Abby and sees herself in him when Abby beat Joel and she lets her go realizing if she continues this cycle Lev could comeback and do the same to her and do it in front of JJ
@@theoutsiderjess1869 this just isn’t true though. Joel literally had to die for this story to work. Whether or not you think killing him was a good idea is up to each player, but it’s necessary for the story. There was no chance in hell Abby would’ve let Joel live. She was so blinded by her hate towards him that it consumed her life. She wasn’t gonna have him in her hands after so many years of pain and just decide to let him go because he was hurt enough
This game is a story of incredible environmental artists, level designers, and gameplay designers who all have to deal with a mess of a writing team
The funny thing is I enjoyed Abby story and gameplay more than ellie.
They should not put Joel and ellie in this game
Great video and on point! Lol while I enjoyed the gameplay I feel like the story itself was emotional torture for the sake of emotional torture, this was the first game I ever finished that literally had me say “that was too much” and I’ve yet to replay it yet despite the great gameplay
Me too I swear I told myself I will never play this game again because it was too mentally draining but now with the remaster I’m going to give it another go
Strange I had the exact opposite experience. I never replayed the first because the ending hit me too hard and frankly I watched Logan and Children of men and enjoyed those narratives more. But I had to replay the sequel because the narrative was so captivating and unique
Not just joels brutal death but how he let himself die. How he gave them his name and was so giving with all his info to strangers. That was not who joel was and he would have never given that up, but it had to happen.
People change with time, he lived in Jackson for years letting his guard down. Also he is older and people make mistakes. Doesn't need to be more complicated than this. He is a person, he had it coming and Abby had her reasons to do it.
@@Fyrapan90 people change with time is your reasoning??. So do all people change with time? Let his guard down that much? YOUR stretching. Bottom line is, it was bad writing that didn't make sense hence bad decision in terms of being true to plot and character based on last narrative.
This is just quite simply misrepresenting what actually happened lmao. Tommy told Abby their names before they had any reason to suspect she had a group of heavily armed friends nearby. The only thing Joel and Tommy did wrong debatably was telling only Abby their names and rescuing her in the first place. They rescue her because they’re better people now and they tell her their names because she could’ve been a new member to Jackson, once saved. Apart from that Joel and Tommy did nothing else wrong and at every point try to either get away from the group or negotiate with them.
Opposite of plot armour just as shit
@@Fyrapan90a Boy Scout doesn’t forget being a Boy Scout when he is 30 years old. Those memories and that skill set is imbedded in their memory forever and will be remembered when put in that situation. He was in Jackson a few years sure but he was surviving for 20 before that. i don’t care about the name giving thing cause it is straw pulling in my opinion but the “Jackson nerfed him” idea is kinda bizarre to me.
I think we got to a point where games are as much art as any other art, so yes, it can be used as just a regular media for entertainment but it has so much potential to share the author's deep thoughts, and feelings the same way a movie or song can, and it doesn't have to be funny and entertaining every time. Not everyone likes deep and complex movies and that's ok. If the game is too heavy or you just want to have fun and don't think about complex stuff, you have the absolute right to don't play and don't like. It's not for you. My opinion: I love the story of this game, to ME ,it makes the audience uncomfortable in a good way, it made me rethink my beliefs and actions in such a deep way. Apart from the story, the gameplay is funny as hell though, the animations, the gunfights, the stealth and the graphics,😙🤌. This game is a masterpiece.
Agree, a game doesn’t have to make you feel good for it to provide a great experience. If your personal preference is a more “happy” experience then great, but that itself is not a good criticism.
I still can't understand how a surgeon could create a vaccine for a fungi, which hasn't happened in real life, and why anyone would trust a bandit group to do the right thing for humanity.
I also don't understand how they'd mass produce it and how they'd win over the public opinion of other survival groups when the Fireflies were considered a terrorist group.
The fact they wanted to force an unconscious child to undergo surgery and state that's the 'moral high ground' is unfathomable.
The second part just seems like forced storytelling, and I think the better option would have been starting the second game with new characters all around, leaving Joel and Ellie's story up to the fans for speculation.
Thanks for your opinion!!! You do need to realize that there is a lot of us that LOVE THE GAME, meaning everything about it, especially the story. This game was different in every sense possible, the fact that we play with Abby and get to understand her side of the story is awesome. I would love a part 3 and I’m pretty sure that I’m not alone…
The way they handled the story pissed me off so much lol. The only saving grace would’ve been killing Abby and actually having some kinda payoff but no, they don’t give you that satisfaction and the entire journey is pointless, with you having accomplished absolutely nothing.
man, I was so annoyed for like a year with this game but I made my peace with it and am gonna enjoy the upgraded version for what it is. the gameplay and graphics is just so good. that’s what’s really pulling me back in
Abby killing Joel wasn't problematic. It was the manner in which his death played out.
Joel is a hardened, wise, experienced apocalypse survival legend. There is NO logical reason why Joel would just offer up his and his brother's names and their affiliations with the city of Jackson to complete strangers. It's completely ridiculous and contrived.
So after literally decades of living in that world and understanding how important trust is he just throws that out the window and gets himself killed? Fuck that.
Edit: people have responded it's Tommy who gives up there names. Let me clarify that's irrelevant. My point is people who've been living in that world (literally same amount of time for both Joel and Tommy) and who've been shown to be very careful and intelligent wouldn't let their guards down like that.
I agree. It also bothered me that he just became a 'throw away' character. Why wasn't he with Ellie during the first part of the game? She's mad at him and they get stuck together on the mission - then he dies. That would have had much more emotional impact than just throwing him away for Dina, then having Ellie stumble on him - just to see him killed.
It is Tommy who gives the information, not Joel
1. Tommy is the one who reveals their names. Tommy has never been nearly as tough as Joel.
2. Joel is hardened yes but he become "human" again in Part 1 because of Ellie and part 2 is 5 years later in safety and recruiting people. Early on Part 1 Joel would never talk about playing guitar with a little girl either but here we are.
3. People make mistakes in real life and in games (it's not exactly impossible) for any "human".
the whole point is that he got comfortable and let his guard down
Exactly, in my opinion I can look past as you and others said Joel acting uncharacteristically because it’s a different Joel that doesn’t have that relationship with Ellie so maybe he’s just a softer Joel and didn’t view them as threats (which regardless was a mistake that yeah someone with his experience shouldn’t have made). My issue with how he died wasn’t even with the literal manner in which he died it was more so the timing, if it happened the same way but later on I wouldn’t have had as much of a problem with it. Him dying like that so early on hurt so bad because it felt like a slap in the face to all of us that love him and his story and seeing as he’s such an important character it sucks that he was as you said treated as a throw away character in that way. It felt insanely disrespectful to his character and to us as fans.
Edit: I’ll also say I hate how Jesse was in the game to essentially give Ellie a kid🤦🏽♂️I liked him a lot and wish they handled that differently yeah it adds to the idea that “the world is brutal and anyone can die” but it’s the walking dead effect where the lesser fleshed out characters always die not the main ones, if they really wanted to push that idea why did Tommy not die too?
My favorite game of all time. I'm waiting for the stupidly named remaster AKA actual director's cut to do my 5th playthrough
AMEN BROTHER
no its just a bad game objectively, the devs acted like Joel being completely reasonable and not helping everyone he came across was a bad thing THATS the reason he died and why so many people were angry it wasn't "grief" it was bad writing. The way they always TRIED to make you feel bad to like "play with this dog so you feel bad later" but you dont cause there was no choice and was obviously just emotional manipulation and the "enemy's shout out names so you feel bad" for the people trying to kill me? not to mention all of the walking sections.
its a bad game stop trying to justify it by saying people didn't like it cause it drew out emotion its WHY it drew it out i love sad movies and dramas and such that make me feel WAY sadder so find another strawman this one is very tiring the excuse of "i was making art" is not an excuse to make a bad game with bad writing
also even the concept of trying to make you feel bad for joels killer is dumb and flawed she murdered an innocent man for not helping her dad when THEY ARE IN A APOCALYPSE so she's either HUGELY self cantered or so stupid i dont want to play as her anyway and im supposed to feel bad just cause she saves some animals and trash?
i just finished it did this man claim that the acting was good? lmao okay buddy after this trash review you have lost all credibility to me if you cant even tell why its so badly written and how bad it is
I think you're very downunder in this stuff.
I think you are actually self centered and those sad movies encourage that self importance.
also stage 3 is bargaining.
unless you're still in stage 1.
I loved the game, it's genuinely the best game that I've ever played
Would have made so much more sense if we started off by playing a new character that also happened to be likable and everything that is not Abby... Maybe some backstory, flashbacks, friendships and some hints to who this person was and much later in the game when the "altercation" hits and you find out who Abby is, it would become more of a stand-off between two characters we like (Obviously everyone likes Joel more but it wouldn't be so one-sided at least). I think the biggest downside to part 2 is that Abby is a pouty and dislikable bitch the entire game and they try to redeem her by just copying part 1 but with another kid and it doesn't work at all!
The game is a masterpiece. It’s emotionally challenging and complex, something that most people weren’t ready for. I can understand people not wanting the story to go in this direction but I think it was a brave decision that had me thinking about it more than any other game. It genuinely impacted my view about the world which is not something I’d ever expect from a video game. The structure was perfect as well btw. Changing it would have diluted its impact.
My only real critique was that they made you fight Ellie when playing as Abby. Nobody was ever going to react well to attacking our hero. If they wanted to push the “perspective” angle, they should have kept switching so that you were always the one on the defensive. Nobody will ever want to hurt Ellie. She is TLOU.
Well said
I'm a huge fan of the first game, have played through it probably 20-30 times. I won't likely ever play part 2, but I've seen quite a lot of it streamed. It's obvious to me that the gameplay I liked about the first game is there and bettered, that the graphics are amazing and quite a lot of the writing is well done.
However. It's clear to me the Neil Druckmann has become a bit obsessed with putting social subversion in his games at the expense of the player. I didn't think for a second before TLOU2 was shown that Joel would be making it out of the game alive, so him dying isn't the problem. The way that scene happens though, is extremely poorly done. Worse than that though, the entire end of TLOU1 (in the Firefly hospital) is thrown out to push the idea that what Joel did to save Ellie was bad, in order to build sympathy for Abby. Even Ellie is shitty to Joel for what everyone who played that part of the first game knew was absolutely justified (especially so if you've read the notes throughout the hospital). I feel all of this is lazy writing and intentionally disrespectful to the player, and character, that wasn't even Neil's to ruin.
I know there are people who really like the game who will hate what I've said but I just can't support a company that treats it's own IP and characters that way just to get some weird 'right side of history' points. Druckmann's social media over the years since is also proof of his intentions being subversive and frankly, weird. The multiple remasters and remakes to milk money from people is also not a great look for Naughty Dog. Unfortunately I kind of doubt they'll even make a game that interests me again though I'd love to be wrong on that.
I stopped caring about everyone’s opinion on this game. It’s absolutely phenomenal to me and I’ve tried to understand where people see why it’s bad but I just don’t. I enjoyed every second of both games
Same. I think its a masterpiece and have played it a few times through
@@Scat_man72 Mediocre is a better term most of the time.
Pre-Watch comment: So much TLOU2 discussion is led by people who havent played it or heavily misrepresent it after watching surface level TH-cam analysis videos
(NakeyJakey). With the Remastered coming out, at least people who hate this game can try it for the first time.
Flexing your communication and educational background on this one Luke, and I'm here for it. Your rhetoric and oratory style has gotten so strong, and I enjoy your pragmatic and logical approach to the game industry.
2:37 "The dynamic stealth element" Bro she's just on grass, she's not a navy seal in camo, and a dog would see you instantly.
im not sure you want to go down this road. Im sure your favorite video game also has aspects that couldnt work in real life but are there because it is a video game.
@@Bryandan1elson my games don't pride themselves on being realistic, but if we go there, Saga Metro could stand agaisnt it, and TLOU1 didn't have these mechanics and it worked fairly well
@@Saint_Wolf_ how does tlou2 pride itself on being realistic? Because it’s set in a real world?
@@Bryandan1elson ok, incorrect wording, point still stands, there are games that do this very thing and do it better, I mentioned Metro. TLOU1 wasn't really stealth focused but it's the previous game and I'd be surprised if it didn't work if you bust gave me crowching and a suppressed pistol. And MGS5 TPP had something a bit like it IF with the regular Big Boss in a box gag, but you can play it in a realistic form.
@@Saint_Wolf_ okay I see what you mean. I think all these games need to have some suspension of disbelief to some degree. For me at least, I can look past these things as game mechanics. Like in Assassins creed hiding in tall grass never really made sense, but it works because it’s a game.
Imo they should NOT be marketing the ‘remaster’ as a remaster… they should be calling it a directors cut because that’s effectively what it is! Some amazing new content I’m really excited for
Except it’s not a Director’s Cut. It’s not adding unfinished content into the main story mode or a DLC story. All of those "Lost Levels" are a completely separate thing from the story mode.
@@Infinite_Ethan03 well if not a directors cut maybe something else. It’s doing it a disservice as they’re adding a whole new, cool mode which a lot of people will look past
Honestly, they could have just made it a free "Next-gen Upgrade" and sold the new Mode as actual DLC, cause as far as I have been able to find find out, you need to upgrade in order to play that mode, which is kinda scummy, imo.
@@chriswihulu I don’t see it as scummy at all, you’re getting a remaster, new lost levels, new unlockable skins and a whole new survival mode for $10, seems good value to me. I do agree that they should have called it a next gen upgrade though
@@kjgames888 it wasn't really clear what I meant, reading my comment again. I meant, it feels scummy to charge for an upgrade, which is the only way to access that extra content, as far as I can tell.
What if you don't own a PS5, or just want to play the extra content, because it seems to be the case, that they lock what is essentially DLC, behind a Remake version.
Especially when we just saw GoW: Ragnarok release their DLC for FREE, no forced upgrade or extra charge, especially as I can't tell how "Valuable" the Extra Content in the Remake is.
I was pumped when LoU2 was announced and even pre-ordered the collector's edition, but when I heard about the leaks and golfing references, I canceled and got the standard version. Personally, I think Neil Druckman knows how to construct a story and create interesting characters, but his attitude towards a lot of the valid criticism of the game really put him in a bad light for me. I think Bruce Straley was more instrumental to the first Last of Us than he's credited for. Granted, talented artists can strike out, too, but Druckman strikes me as someone that needs to be told "No" or really reigned in on certain aspects of his storytelling.
I'd be fine with Joel's death if the lead-up was better and we got to see his more softened behavior in regards to him being more welcoming of strangers and all that. I also think Druckman did a disservice to the first game's blurred morality by painting Joel's actions as purely black and white. It was pretty annoying watching Ellie miss the point of Joel's choice once she had a child of her own.
In regards to Abby, she wasn't well written to me as a character considering how the game doesn't even give us time to adjust to her before she kills Joel. If anything, it felt like the game was hinting the world would probably be better without either Abby or Ellie, and I was hoping they would've killed each other by the end considering how overbearing the game is about the idea of cyclical violence and hatred.
The game is great to play tho, but the story needed a lot more time to cook. At least for me, Part II tainted the series overall. Just because an artist takes a big swing, that doesn't mean they should get more leeway from valid criticism.
Can't wait for this game to re-enter the public consciousness with HBO's take and hear the passionate, but reasonable discourse
I feel the same in regards to Druckmann and Straley. I remember years and years ago not long after the first game launched they had an interview together with I think IGN and Druckmann talked about how he originally wanted to have Tess be the final boss in the first game and she had chased Joel across the country and Straley or somebody else told him no as it didn't make sense in context to the world.
This is the story Druckmann always wanted to write and nobody was going to tell him no now that he was in charge.
I understand how people might think a sequel is unecessary, but I just disagree. I don't think sequels can be necessary or unecessary, they can either be good stories or bad stories. In the case of The Last of Us, I think the sequel is, narratively speaking, very good and its existance justifies itself because it is a good story and it is properly executed.
Of course, there are people who may not have liked the sequel and that is totally OK. But that doesn't mean that its existance is unecessary
What I am trying to say is that the creator (in this case, Neil Druckmann) is well within his right to believe his creation deserves a continuity, wether it is a sequel, a prequel or whatever, and that decision is valid in itself. What the audience should judge is how good that new story is, not if it should have existed or not.
I thought it was a great game. Would have liked it to be a bit longer. Absolutely loved the conflicting feelings it created and thought it was very clever.
There was nothing clever about it, it had a dogshit story, there was no conflict, fans of the franchise got two beloved characters, one of whom was killed off and the second practically replaced at times by the fuck nugget, that then the game spent a LOT of time manipulating you to like her
@@TheNightman.your opinion is not wrong but neither is the one from the OG comment. They have the right to like the game lol you have the right to hate it
I agree with the whole section of Pacing Problems and Emotional Strain. I play games to have fun as well. When this dumpster of a fire game, had me go through all of the horrible shit, and finding some happiness seeing Dinah and Ellie being happy, it threw me into another badly emotional roller coaster (is the best way I can describe this without swearing-) all because of pacing and there's no payoff. I thought I get to kill Abby or get the choice to do so. Nope. No emotional payoff after the hell I went through. In terms of entertainment, that sucked. I'm with your friend, in the video, Luke. I'll play Monster Hunter. That game makes me happy. This game, makes me feel like hell and it didn't even let me get the huge emotional payoff because that was stripped for me, because the game thought this should be better. I think Ghost of Tsushima did this better in the ending, by letting you choose, based on the experience you went through. I'm so upset that this game lost to TLOU at the time. What a hell of a year that was.
I always hear that. People say you either loved or hated this game but for me it was just so emotionally exhausting I was just glad it was over.
Imagine being on YT, grifting away and then joking about "the American dream" being awful. Self awareness is not your strong suit. Is it?