Bro let it go ITS A SHIT GAME...with bad, lazy and nonsensical writing ...and most of all the WOKENESS in it killed it. Its a shame the game of the year awards were rigged because of political bias, otherwise would had Final Fantasy 7 remake or Ghosts of Tsushima won game of the year in 2020
@@tanelviil9149 Which part? Ellie being gay? She was gay back in 2013 in the DLC but hey, there wasn't "wokeness" in the conversation, so nobody gave a fuck. Crying about wokeness is more obnoxious than the screaming lib meme.
I think a Japanese reviewer (idk the source) had the best description about TLOU 2's narrative; "It's about what's right and wrong, from the people who think that they're always right."
For me, so many of this games issues come from its structure. In the first game everything flows so naturally and logically with their journey from east to west. Here, like you said characters are fast traveling all over the country and timelines are shifting constantly, which really kills a lot of momentum from chapter to chapter. The whole California epilogue really felt forced or out of place, and it was sad to see Ellie learn nothing from the previous events up to that point. I think they did an excellent job of making you feel the loss of Joel, and his absence from the game is so noticeable and it makes you connect with Ellie that much more. The problem is if you’re gonna take out your beloved main character in the first hour of the game, whatever is replacing him (Abby) has to be that much more engaging instead. And for myself, there just wasn’t enough time spent making that genuine connection with her like they did with Ellie in the first game. None of her friends are particularly likable, and even if you disagree it doesn’t matter as they’re often killed almost immediately after getting any screen time. Unfortunate that a game with so much potential and such fun gameplay and really cool set-pieces (the hospital boss comes to mind) ended up becoming such a disappointment. I feel like somewhere in there, there’s a 10/10 sequel if they had just fixed the structure/pacing and spent more time exploring Joel and Ellie’s relationship after he made that choice to save her.
Agree, I think that if the played out the story in chronological order it would have hit harder and would of given the player more time to get used to and like Abby!
Agreed, also can we talk about how bogus crying for Sarah’s death is considering her screen time is less? I feel what you felt with Abby’s friend except with Sarah, despite the game and everyone talking about how important she is. Felt like fans did most the work caring for Sarah. Also how do you feel about the Joel death fake out cut? A piece in the story cutout for dlc. That’s one thing I disagree with, it did not flow natural and logically during that part. I know this is about part 2 but part 1 has flaws that fans called perfect and as such Naughty Dog felt comfortable with making even bolder moves than cutting out story for you to pay for in a dlc.
@@youngnat Yeah I think when people get sad about Sarah it's more about what she represents for Joel rather than her as an actual character. Him having lost a daughter is such an important piece of who he is and why he is so reluctant to get attached to Ellie. Honestly my favorite scene in the first game is at the ranch when Ellie finally gets Joel to realize that she's his family now and he can put Sarah's death behind him. But I get what you mean, she is only in the game for 15 minutes lol For me that section didn't feel out of place, as they're still moving toward their goal of finding the fireflies. I don't remember feeling like they specifically took out the part of the story that happens in Left Behind just to sell it as DLC. Like to me having to play more as Ellie and go get the medicine or whatever happens in the DLC would've harmed the pacing imo, but it's been a while since I first played it so I'm not sure. Yeah no game is perfect. I think they definitely felt like they could do no wrong after the first game was so universally praised, so they really tried to do something crazy which I can respect. They just weren't quite able to put it all together
I've always said if Naughty Dog wanted the player to sympathize with abby and see both sides of the story then we needed to play abby before we play the events with Joel. We needed to see her human side and then drop the bombshell of the relationship between the characters. The way Naughty Dog introduces Abby in an irredeemable moment then asks the player to see her side was was almost narratively impossible given the emotions the player would have already experienced
you talk about these players who think Joel is a good man? really??? even the first part ended with a selfish Joel who lied to Ellie they did the right thing...you should hate Abby at first, I hated her and I wanna kill her...but than they showed me her pov and I understand her and even liked her.
@@la_engineerhat are you 12? This is the most pathetic and "woe is me" argument of them all. Joel saved Ellie's life and risked his own doing so and y'all just wanna say "Joel Lied🥺😢." Only people with victim mentalities think this way. This is why I can't stand Ellie because she becomes just as bad if not far worse than Joel in the second game and ends up doing the same things she judged and mistreated Joel over. And can't forget the part where she breaks down and stops talking to Joel because he lied. Smh. 😂 The only reason she was even kicking was because of Joel and she had no right to complain.
If the point was to hate Abby then we never should have played her if the point was to see her side of the story then we should have been introduced to her in a less incendiary manner. After that point in the story I didn’t care what her side was. 🤷♂️
They are BY FAR the most realistic characters in a gaming history, Imagine the world collapses, everyone fighting for resources, zombies, cannibals, etc and some USA kids made a tragedy about being missgendered and run away from their parents 😅
Not by a mile. want to see complexity in characters check out the mass effect series. look at Jin Sakai and his uncle shimura from GOT. So many more well written characters in gaming then a little Ellie knockoff
Honestly, this story isn’t insane. As much I’d hate to admit it, almost every decision these characters make are accurate with what THEY would actually do. This is the story of how Ellie became a broken woman in a relentless world. I love it for what it is. Because no matter how emotionally and physically draining this game is, it impacted its player in a way no other video game could. it’s why we still talk about it. It’s not perfect, but it doesn’t need to be.
I think my biggest issue with part 2 is that the first game although having great writing and characters you actually gave a shit about was built off a foundation based around the relationship between Ellie and Joel. The writers of two forgot that although the game would’ve been good nonetheless due to how well the writing was, what made it GREAT was these two characters and how the built off of each other and were directly a part of each others arcs. So when the second game came out, and we see them hating each other all of a sudden and then the main character of the first game getting brutally murdered by someone we are forced to play as for multiple hours AFTER the fact, people were rightfully pissed off.
It's not "rightfully" if I'm not the target of the product it's not the product's fault, because whoever is has understood everything very well, I don't go under Mario Kart games and say "they're things for children, what do I do with this dumb thing?" no I just don't play it and I understand that it has more value to other people, that's why this is a "non-criticism". This industry is evolving along with the people who use it, it is stupid to give credit to these people who hate anything that is not made for them.
They didn't forget anything. That relationship had hard lies attached to it, and because of that, the consequences followed. Yall don't understand what good writing is if that's the excuse being attached to it. Joel was not a good person and he lied to Ellie after she confronted him about the truth. Everything that follows is a direct result of that. It's how real relationships work. Their relationship being good and happy is not a crutch meant to carry a franchise. People can be mad, sure, but it was deserved. Anyone trying to say that's bad writing lacks a comprehensive understanding of what character motivations are and how consequences have repercussions.
I think Joel dying made sense but it’s the forcing the player to play as Abby that didn’t. Also the constant cycle of Ellie’s revenge felt like it dragged on too long
Correct. But that's how it should be. Cause and effect. I hated Abby for what she did. Playing as her was hard. But as I saw things from her POV I started to realize she wasn't the bad guy and she did exactly what anyone else would do. If some super likeable guy killed your dad would you let him off the hook because he's super likeable? "My pleasure Joel, murder my family whenever you want". Or would you track him down and get revenge? This world is very much a revenge world and not a forgive and forget world. The second game is mainly great because of the combat and attention to detail. It's a stunning feat. But it's also great because it shows you the world from different points of view. There is no good guy and no bad guy. There is cause and effect and that's it. So by the end I was on Abby's side, even though I'm the first person who would have killed her dad to save ellie.
I'm sorry but it's not lying by cutting in that one clip of Joel. They never said you would play as Joel in any marketing and never even showed an image of what he looked like until that one trailer close to launch. Movies and tv shows cut or manipulate footage all the time to throw the audience off. This was such a nothing burger of a complaint. No one gave a shit when Avengers did it with the Hulk in infinity war (because Marvel wanted the Avengers losing to Thanos to be a surprise) or when MGS2 made an entire game playing as Raiden instead of Solid Snake.
17:20 but who in the last of us story is in the right?? Who??? No one is written with clear morals in that story because most likely the good hearted ones died. The only characters which we written with a sense humanity is Joel and Ellie. Ellie was abandoned by her mother, her friend etc Everyone either want to hurt her or use her, everyone except for Joel. Joel didn’t even care about the world, he just wanted his tools. The fireflies used this as a crux to have him carry Ellie. He fought so hard not to get close to her but she won him over. He then realizes the hope through Ellie and Ellie realized her meaning of self through him. It’s not our fault these characters were wrote this way. If Marlene and co or anyone else were written this way, it would have been the same love from fans. Joel and Ellie’s story was a peek humanity. A father and and a child is the pinnacle to human love and purpose. We all naturally understand this bond because it’s a bond which has existed since the birth of our history. Who would care about the world when the world is only self serving and takes away our love and hope. The world only care about the masses because only the masses can feed it. Joel lost everything to the world. So should he have also sacrificed his only remaining cherishment to the cold grasp of the world???
Legitimately my only grievance with this game is the way Joel dies. It’s not even the fact that he dies, but how. It seemed so out of character, and contrived. Everything else, including the narrative framing and themes, is masterful.
What about the pacing of the story? Don't you consider it kinda weird that just as the conflict with Abby is heating up, we suddenly have to play as her for the next 8 hours before resuming that conflict? In a storyline that has barely anything to do with Ellie's and could've been it's own game or DLC?
Joel changing a little bit in 5 years of recruting people outside of Jackson is not strange. Joel changed DRAMATICLY through out Part 1 too (that's the entire point) in not even 1/5th of that time. Tommy has recruited people for Jackson for even longer and is used to introducing himself to recruit them into Jackson. That's why HE does it so easily to Abby (No it wasn't Joel)
The way he died was consistent with the tone of the series i.e. brutal and miserable. People who say "oh it's not the fact that he died it's HOW he died" always propose some corny-ass shit as alternative like "he should have BRAVELY sacrificed himself, taking out MULTIPLE infected and militiamen to save Ellie's life" or some saccharine nonsense like that
What I find wild, is that everyone acknowledges that this game has some of the best graphics, sound design, voice acting, and really anything that involves presentation, ever. It also has one of the best stealth combat gameplay ever. Some of the best AI ever...so it essentially is one of the best in every category, except not everyone likes its story. Which is fine, but there is no way marking the game a 3 out of 10 or something makes sense. Objectively speaking, it's at least a 7. Due to how incredible it is in so many areas.
Except it is a 3/10 or less. Everything else is just built upon what was already there, you should expect that shit at bare minimum and then to be carried up by the story. The story is so fucking dogshit it dragged it down
Luke : “It is not okay when people spread rumors and lie about the game” Also Luke: “I understand why Naughty Dog putout misleading trailers it just makes me feel icky”
@@scruz6293 my hearing or lack thereof, is not an argument... Please, do inform me why we should accept trailers lying to us, especially as Naughty Dog must have made two versions of the same cut scene and chose to show the one that wasn't in the game, in their "Story Trailer".
@@chriswihulu because it was additive to the experience of the game. Once I had context and saw why it was advertised the way it was i was completely sold. My expectations were gone and the game showed it was now capable of anything. The traditional story telling rules were out the window. And it was significantly better for it.
@@scruz6293 can you include that "context" cause it quite literally, just sound like you were shown a lie, found out it was a lie and wanted to see what else turned out to not be true. If it's about the leaks, the best I can say is, it sucks that it happened, but that doesn't make it alright to pull that kind of stunt. Game trailers are given specific descriptions, as to indicate what parts of the game they show; sneak peak, first look, gameplay, story, etc. That trailer in question, is the Story Trailer, as such, it is meant to showcase bits and pieces from the game's story. If they show scenes in that trailer, that doesn't appear in-game, in any way, then that isn't additive nor is meant to remove your expectations, it is false advertisement. If it was meant to remove your expectations and break away from traditional story telling methods, why isn't the entire story different from what is shown in the promotional material? Why wasn't it just an Abby game, since we can now expect anything that we've been told, might turn out to be false? No, they did this, specifically, to showcase Joel as if he was alive and part of the story, just so they could laugh in people's faces and say "lol, how dumb you are, for listening to leaks! Look, you can clearly see he isn't dead!" If we apply your reasoning going forward, any trailer from Naughty Dog now or in the future, must have bold letters in them in every frame, saying; "any and all scenes in this trailer, may or may not have been made, purely as an 'additive to the experience' and must not be seen as an official representation of the game".
@txup92g33 Tommy told Abby their names. Not Joel. Also it's literally 5 years inbetween Part 1 and 2 where Joel spends his time recruiting people outside of Jackson and taking them in. If you can't believe Joel can't change in 5 years you missed the point of Part 1 where he changes completely from start to finish in just a few months.
@@misterhoobomaster All that supposed change during those 4 years (yeah it's 4, not 5) happened off screen, no one can definitively prove that such change has really happened. Ideally in a well written story you would gradually show and set up such a character change to the audience, and not let them write the story for you and just assume that it has maybe happened.
I was pumped when LoU2 was announced and even pre-ordered the collector's edition, but when I heard about the leaks and golfing references, I canceled and got the standard version. Personally, I think Neil Druckman knows how to construct a story and create interesting characters, but his attitude towards a lot of the valid criticism of the game really put him in a bad light for me. I think Bruce Straley was more instrumental to the first Last of Us than he's credited for. Granted, talented artists can strike out, too, but Druckman strikes me as someone that needs to be told "No" or really reigned in on certain aspects of his storytelling. I'd be fine with Joel's death if the lead-up was better and we got to see his more softened behavior in regards to him being more welcoming of strangers and all that. I also think Druckman did a disservice to the first game's blurred morality by painting Joel's actions as purely black and white. It was pretty annoying watching Ellie miss the point of Joel's choice once she had a child of her own. In regards to Abby, she wasn't well written to me as a character considering how the game doesn't even give us time to adjust to her before she kills Joel. If anything, it felt like the game was hinting the world would probably be better without either Abby or Ellie, and I was hoping they would've killed each other by the end considering how overbearing the game is about the idea of cyclical violence and hatred. The game is great to play tho, but the story needed a lot more time to cook. At least for me, Part II tainted the series overall. Just because an artist takes a big swing, that doesn't mean they should get more leeway from valid criticism. Can't wait for this game to re-enter the public consciousness with HBO's take and hear the passionate, but reasonable discourse
I feel the same in regards to Druckmann and Straley. I remember years and years ago not long after the first game launched they had an interview together with I think IGN and Druckmann talked about how he originally wanted to have Tess be the final boss in the first game and she had chased Joel across the country and Straley or somebody else told him no as it didn't make sense in context to the world. This is the story Druckmann always wanted to write and nobody was going to tell him no now that he was in charge.
Great video and on point! Lol while I enjoyed the gameplay I feel like the story itself was emotional torture for the sake of emotional torture, this was the first game I ever finished that literally had me say “that was too much” and I’ve yet to replay it yet despite the great gameplay
Me too I swear I told myself I will never play this game again because it was too mentally draining but now with the remaster I’m going to give it another go
Strange I had the exact opposite experience. I never replayed the first because the ending hit me too hard and frankly I watched Logan and Children of men and enjoyed those narratives more. But I had to replay the sequel because the narrative was so captivating and unique
For me, this story worked. I don't know, I felt mad at Abby, then I felt mad at Ellie, after that when I started killing Wolves I was like, wtf, why am I doing this. And just when you had enough of it, they give you the opportunity to blast some pieces of shits and actually save Abby in the end, It was fucking awesome.
Even if many of the leaks as you say may have been wrong, to me the two most important ones were true, Abby kills Joel and you have to play half the game as her, and that was enough to make me not want to buy and play the game. It's no different if David killed Ellie in the first game, and then you had to play as him for 12 hours. So I thank whoever leaked the details.
I was completely Meh about the game to be honest. But I can see why it was so polarizing. Me personally there were way too many characters that I was supposed to care about but didn’t and the game was simply too long in my opinion. I loved the focused, shorter story of the first game. As far as Joel, didn’t mind what happened but the timing probably could have been done better.
I almost feel guilty and ashamed or even dumb that I love tlou2 because of the controversy and heavy criticism it gets. I loved the acting, gameplay, cinematography, soundtrack, sound design, themes, tone, it’s darkness, it’s somberness, it’s humanity and yes it’s story. I do agree that it’s got pacing and structure issues, but I just can’t not love it and sometimes find it hard to understand why it got so much hate and heavy criticism. it often gets labeled as a “revenge bad” story, but I wholeheartedly disagree. I think it’s a story about grief, guilt, shame, depression, empathy, self destruction, love, hate and ultimately forgiveness.
I don't like the game at all but don't feel ashamed for liking it. Nobody but you has any right to decide what you like people telling you you're wrong for liking it can be promptly told to f*ck off. We can debate if it's good or bad but enjoyment is subjective to each individual and should stay that way.
I think everyone expected Joel to die….we just didn’t want it to be 2 hours into a 30 hour game that we waited 7 years to see this character again. There was nothing except for pt1 for years, ironically now TLOU is everywhere every year. I think we just wanted more Ellie and Joel. I think you could certainly kill him, do it midway? Sure a new story is then required because we need motive to even get in this dilemma. Early drafts made it seem as if the group would infiltrate slowly and then turn on us in Jackson. I don’t know what beats you could fill in for that but, it probably would of worked much better. That being said you could frame dozens of other stories where we don’t kill Joel right away, yes is it an unprecedented move that is meant to fuck your head up, it’s the catalyst for this game, and let’s us know noone is safe but…I don’t think doing that inspite of how games treat their protagonists worked here. As we loom over a pt3 we even more so look and question on if they could of made a better story for this now franchise that seems apparent it isn’t over yet.
Woh to say the AI and stealth are better than anything out today is a plain lie, you could easily sit in a doorway waiting to stealth kill whole rooms one by one.
Agreed. I played on the hardest difficulty and apart from the "boss" fights, using stealth felt cheating as it was so dead easy to just... wait and pick off enemies. It didn't work as well as in something like Dishonored or Batman to me.
For real, sit in a corner or behind piece of cover after setting traps in all doorways. Throw a rock nearby and watch the enemies walk into the traps mice going for the cheese on the mouse trap.
@@niallp.o.7567 No because I didn't want to go through a terribly paced slog of a game all over again. What kind of argument is this anyway? grounded would just show up the bad AI even more because it's so easily manipulated, and the best way to get though the hardest difficulty.
Honestly, I think people would have less issues with TLOU2's narrative if it didn't take itself so frigging seriously. Every game has "ludonarrative dissonance" issues, every game makes the player do things that come into direct conflict with the narrative in some way, but very few of them take themselves as serious as TLOU2. And since the game is so very obviously trying to be important and tackle themes in a very serious and grandiose artsy way, all the narrative issues become exponentially bigger. I wouldn't mind the fact that I'm killing people violently by the hundreds, and having a blast doing it btw, if the game didn't try so heavily to tell me the violence cycle perpetuated by both protagonists by them dehumanizing each other was successfully broken in the end when they let each other live. The heck does that cycle of violence even matter anymore after I've killed so many people and started so many other cycles of violence anyway? All that being said, my biggest issue with TLOU2 by far is the pacing. I can very easily overlook all the issues I have with TLOU2's narrative (even besides the one I mentioned previously), but the pacing is just atrocious. Every time I think about replaying it, I get preemptively tired by all the boring stuff I'll have to go through to enjoy the good stuff. The beginning is so meandering, switching perspectives so many times right off the bat, then so many flashbacks along the game, so much walking and talking, so many pointless looting sections, and then the game restarts in the middle to focus on a character you haven't played as, or even seen for hours, with a completely different set of characters, halting my progression right at the peak of the narrative tension, frankly, I get tired just talking about it.
Flexing your communication and educational background on this one Luke, and I'm here for it. Your rhetoric and oratory style has gotten so strong, and I enjoy your pragmatic and logical approach to the game industry.
I think it’s a very interesting and brave sequel with a lot of writing problems. It takes a lot of big risks, but the thing with risks is sometimes they don’t pay out and you’re left with major parts of the story feeling a bit rough. It’s an incredible looking game with a lot of interesting and difficult to deal with themes. I’m happy it exists. I do not think it’s perfect but I would rather have it as this weird artistic experiment than not have it at all. On the whole I think the experience is more great than bad.
I understand how people might think a sequel is unecessary, but I just disagree. I don't think sequels can be necessary or unecessary, they can either be good stories or bad stories. In the case of The Last of Us, I think the sequel is, narratively speaking, very good and its existance justifies itself because it is a good story and it is properly executed. Of course, there are people who may not have liked the sequel and that is totally OK. But that doesn't mean that its existance is unecessary
What I am trying to say is that the creator (in this case, Neil Druckmann) is well within his right to believe his creation deserves a continuity, wether it is a sequel, a prequel or whatever, and that decision is valid in itself. What the audience should judge is how good that new story is, not if it should have existed or not.
My problems with the narrative can be summed up to it being a plot driven story instead of a character driven story instead like the first game. Characters are moved around like chess pieces to get the plot going and not enough attention was paid to the details and character motivations to make it make sense. Edit: The marketing also straight up lies to everyone. As you go over the marketing says Joel is going to be more involved in the story than he actually is. ND knew this and did so on purpose knowing people wouldn't bite otherwise. One of the Metal Gear games, I think 3, did it right all the footage of Snake was used in the prologue no model swapping necessary.
Unless you're writing a sprawling fantasy epic that takes place over many years and differing lands and is more about time and places, there is no such thing as the difference between a plot driven story and a character driven story. Character is plot. There are characters in Part II and they move the plot. What you're probably trying to say is that Part II is more of an external genre based story than internal genre. And perhaps there's a grain of truth to that. But it's certainly not a fully external genre based story.
Yep, I don't even need to talk about the story, the characters or anything else, when we see what they did with the Story Trailer. Legit, it's so egregious that I have no interest in actually playing the game, because pulling a stunt like ND did, isn't something I've ever seen before. You're right that it was Metal Gear Solid, but the second game in that line and yes, they did not make extra material, to Bait buyers into playing the game, as if to say "don't believe the leaks!".
People were calling out Naughty Dog after Uncharted 4 came out for not having the balls to kill off anyone and having a happy ending. Well, seems like Naughty Dog listened and went bolder, not just for shock value but for what The Last of Us world is. Unforgiving. It’s all about perspective.
Neil Druckman said that the first story is about love and that Part II is about justice. I think that even he is wrong about that. The theme in Part II is very clearly about agency, especially from Ellie's point of view. The final memory with her and Joel is crucial. She says that she should have died in that hospital and her life would have meant something. She's mad at Joel for removing her agency. She should be mad at the Fireflies for removing her agency. She is obviously mad at Abby for removing her agency. She has a deathwish. That's why she goes to Seattle on a hunt for vengeance. She wants her life to mean something. She's also nineteen and grieving and I have never understood the argument that she's a character making decisions that don't make sense. Um... hello? Do people not understand how grief works? Have you ever met anyone grieving deeply? They aren't exactly coherent... So, in a way, her actions do make sense. I don't agree that there is no emotional pay-off by the end. A lot of people wanted Ellie to kill Abby and THAT would have turned the entire game into a generic, run-of-the-mill tale of revenge. She finally woke up and made the right choice. So I fall into the category of LOVE THIS GAME. I hope there is a third game with Ellie, Abby, Tommy, and Lev and they can work on the theme being forgiveness. 🤷♂
You know what's even more depressing than a game with a depressing story ? A world where people do not want artists (game devs) to make these kinds of games because "oh no it's not fun."
there's a massive difference between a game not being fun and a game not being light-hearted. MGSV has the best stealth gameplay of all time easily and its story is never, ever light-hearted.
Imo they should NOT be marketing the ‘remaster’ as a remaster… they should be calling it a directors cut because that’s effectively what it is! Some amazing new content I’m really excited for
Except it’s not a Director’s Cut. It’s not adding unfinished content into the main story mode or a DLC story. All of those "Lost Levels" are a completely separate thing from the story mode.
@@Infinite_Ethan_03 well if not a directors cut maybe something else. It’s doing it a disservice as they’re adding a whole new, cool mode which a lot of people will look past
Honestly, they could have just made it a free "Next-gen Upgrade" and sold the new Mode as actual DLC, cause as far as I have been able to find find out, you need to upgrade in order to play that mode, which is kinda scummy, imo.
@@chriswihulu I don’t see it as scummy at all, you’re getting a remaster, new lost levels, new unlockable skins and a whole new survival mode for $10, seems good value to me. I do agree that they should have called it a next gen upgrade though
@@kjgames888 it wasn't really clear what I meant, reading my comment again. I meant, it feels scummy to charge for an upgrade, which is the only way to access that extra content, as far as I can tell. What if you don't own a PS5, or just want to play the extra content, because it seems to be the case, that they lock what is essentially DLC, behind a Remake version. Especially when we just saw GoW: Ragnarok release their DLC for FREE, no forced upgrade or extra charge, especially as I can't tell how "Valuable" the Extra Content in the Remake is.
I have been thinking of this game for the better part of 2 years every month or so I watch it played by someone. Your video gave me a good perspective on the opening the leak and the pacing of the game. The game is based on the Greek tragedy The Orestia. With the player being Cassandra.. she is doomed to know how the story plays out but unable to effect rhe outcome(Cassandra is written on the movie theatre you hide in to give you more hints.) I think the leak was intentional. To put you I'm the position of knowing it's coming but you can't do anything to change the outcome.. you just know it's coming and it's going to hurt. Then you go back to play as ellie and watch her fall into anger and depression... you can't do anything to help her just watch it happen... Then they push you to Abby and make you hate her... see her perspective, learn she is just a person who is consumed by hatred, is haunted by her fathers death and also Joels death.l, and finally empathise with her. The point is to keep you in a loop of hatred and depression
TLOU2, IMO IS a very good game. They just fked up with the character of Joel ... BIG TIME. He was a beloved character . And naughty dog made a couple of other dubious choices.. But I did enjoy the game.
He should let it go ITS A SHIT GAME...with bad, lazy and nonsensical writing ...and most of all the WOKENESS in it killed it. Its a shame the game of the year awards were rigged because of political bias, otherwise would had Final Fantasy 7 remake or Ghosts of Tsushima won game of the year in 2020
The reason the story works is because of how beloved he was to the player and not just the characters. It’s a good way to play with the medium, with the Joel having beyond in-game reverence in the real world. You’re suppose to hate it, hate how sudden it was and hate Abby for it, only to realize Abby is arguably more justified, though it’s all very grey and perspective in a harsh world where justification is wholly ethical on a personal level while everything’s gone to shit. Idk, to me it was super interesting of a way to go about it, rather than a generic character-driven drama like the first. Not to take away from the original, it’s insanely well done for what it is but it’s not very original storytelling, just a stellar version of something we’ve seen before.
This game has aged so well for me when I first played I was still shielded from a lot of the real world and I hated that Joel died the way he did but this game transcends gaming it’s the first game I ever played were the characters feel real like they have lived life on earth in a brutal world As I’ve grew more i realized Joel died that way cause he lived that way why does Joel get to live to be old or die well when he’s killed more people then we can count this has become my favorite game ever over time and 4 years later I still want to talk about it and play it again
Personal I thought that the part 2 should have started with Ellie and Joel on one of their infected runs were they're clearing a location, Joel gets seriously injured and can't leave the bed. Ellie then wants to find out more about her past, what happened at the hospital etc. So you take control of Ellie to do just that while Joel is bedridden and just a voice on a walkie-talkie. While Ellie is on her adventure to find out about her past she stops at the hospital, finds out what happened and lays into Joel over the walkie-talkie and promises never to return. While still out she hears someone in trouble and checks it out. It's Abby. Ellie helps Abby. After helping Abby they decided to team up and survive together because Abby tell Ellie that she's trying to hunt down the killer of her Dad (no other details are given) Ellie offers to help and Appy agrees. While Abby and Ellie are searching for Abbys dad killer Joel is periodically trying to get ahold of Ellie but Ellie continues to ignore him. Abby asks who it is and Ellie basically explains that it's the only person that cared for me but also hurt me the most. While Ellie and Abby are out on the hunt there are game moments we're you take control of Abby, some times saving Ellie or doing different puzzles. Ellie and Abby also have conversations about different things. At the end of the game after taking on some faction or something Abby has a conversation with Ellie about forgiving her "Dad" because it's the only one you have. Ellie agrees and walks a few steps away from Abby and trys to get ahold of Joel, however the nurse taking care of Joel picks up and Ellie asks if she/he could go get Joel because she wants to talk to him. Right after that the camera prospective switch to Abby because that's the moment she realizes who Ellie's Dad is and that she found the person she was looking for. Ellie finishs up her conversation tells Abby she's heading back to Jackson. Both Ellie and Abby say goodbye,cand when she's out of range of hearing anything Abby uses her walkie-talkie to let someone know on the opposite end that she found him, she know where Joel is.....and then the credits roll. The 3rd game would be the revenge story. Doing it this way we actually care about Abby before sh*t hits the fan in the 3rd game. In the 3rd game Joel dies, you play sections as Ellie and sections as Abby etc, etc, etc.
I stopped caring about everyone’s opinion on this game. It’s absolutely phenomenal to me and I’ve tried to understand where people see why it’s bad but I just don’t. I enjoyed every second of both games
I thought it was a great game. Would have liked it to be a bit longer. Absolutely loved the conflicting feelings it created and thought it was very clever.
There was nothing clever about it, it had a dogshit story, there was no conflict, fans of the franchise got two beloved characters, one of whom was killed off and the second practically replaced at times by the fuck nugget, that then the game spent a LOT of time manipulating you to like her
@@TheNightman.your opinion is not wrong but neither is the one from the OG comment. They have the right to like the game lol you have the right to hate it
I'm a huge fan of the first game, have played through it probably 20-30 times. I won't likely ever play part 2, but I've seen quite a lot of it streamed. It's obvious to me that the gameplay I liked about the first game is there and bettered, that the graphics are amazing and quite a lot of the writing is well done. However. It's clear to me the Neil Druckmann has become a bit obsessed with putting social subversion in his games at the expense of the player. I didn't think for a second before TLOU2 was shown that Joel would be making it out of the game alive, so him dying isn't the problem. The way that scene happens though, is extremely poorly done. Worse than that though, the entire end of TLOU1 (in the Firefly hospital) is thrown out to push the idea that what Joel did to save Ellie was bad, in order to build sympathy for Abby. Even Ellie is shitty to Joel for what everyone who played that part of the first game knew was absolutely justified (especially so if you've read the notes throughout the hospital). I feel all of this is lazy writing and intentionally disrespectful to the player, and character, that wasn't even Neil's to ruin. I know there are people who really like the game who will hate what I've said but I just can't support a company that treats it's own IP and characters that way just to get some weird 'right side of history' points. Druckmann's social media over the years since is also proof of his intentions being subversive and frankly, weird. The multiple remasters and remakes to milk money from people is also not a great look for Naughty Dog. Unfortunately I kind of doubt they'll even make a game that interests me again though I'd love to be wrong on that.
Writers are the creators. If they say there’s more to a characters story, saying it’s not necessary isn’t really your right to say. You can simply not view it, but there’s a reason you did ;)
About the AI shouting random names upon killing an irrevelant grunt npc that not only do you know nothing about and never will but it was, by design, placed there to either die or give you something to do. The point is "you should care and feel X because it had a name" and the answer is no, not even close This is one of the most blatant, cheapest ways used by the game to emotionally manipulate the player. If you fell for it, you fell for an appeal to emotion argument, commonly used in politics and known as a fallacy for a reason. Hence why no one has come close, because you want to stay away from such tactics
Another TH-camr NakedJakey I think, actually pointed that out, that regardless of how messed up, brutal or needlesly violent you are in the combat, it is never reflected in the actual story. It's called Ludonarrative Dissonance, where the Gameplay doesn't fit with the story being told, much like Laura Croft in the 2013 Tomb Raider Reboot, having a viceral reaction to killing your first deer, but not when you do it again and if I recall, not even when you kill your first human.
@chandllerburse737 The point still stands, it´s meant to make the npcs feel real, they care someone they knew died. Which at the same time is meant to have an effect on the player, which is also determined by what the game is thematically trying to do, hence its inclusion. In the Arkham Games, the approach is drastically different, the game is trying to communicate how intimidating Batman can be, especially to criminals. And every time the npcs nervously say they got someone down the real aim is not to make them feel more "real" so you can make some narrative up in your head about how sad it is that I just killed someone they "knew" and how they "cared", just because it had a name. Is to make you feel more threatening as Batman.
@chandllerburse737 And here I thought we could have a meaningful discussion about execution for design, thematic elements....Ehh, I´ll take the deflection I guess
@chandllerburse737 I don´t think misanthropy has anything to do with it. Any story is going to have thematic elements, intention and things that, by design, are there for you to pick up, because if that wasn´t the case, those elements wouldn´t be there in the first place. And we can, through observation, conclude what said story is trying to tell you, and what are the means said story is using. The fact that somebody else shouts a random name adds nothing within the context of the narrative or the story, just a false feeling that they are more real, but you still have nothing to work with. It would be akin to watching a John Wick movie and, for each single random grunt in his way that gets killed, another random grunt shouts a name, only for this last grunt to be killed as fast as the previous one. But the movie is not trying to trick you into thinking "these were real people, real grunts that cared for eachother and died for nothing at the hands of a merciless killer" which is why it doesn´t happen. And even if it did happen, and somehow the people began praising it by saying, "man, those grunts felt so real and immersive" the people behind the script and the story would probably think "Man, cannot believe they swallowed it, that was easy"
I think I'd have enjoyed the game more if they had the balls to make you kill Ellie as Abby. I certainly would've enjoyed it more if I had the CHOICE to kill Abby or not. I saw the ending coming right from the start and it disappointed me so much that it was that predictable. I would've been FAR MORE satisfied if I could've put her down. I get that defeats the point, but Ellie already lost Dina and Joel by then so, who cares? Edit: Don't want a part 3 but I'd take a prequel with more Joel & Tess or a completely different game with all new characters. Set it like 30 years in the future and MAYBE Ellie made it to like 53, or maybe not. Maybe we see her or her grave.
Maybe to you, but narrativepy it made sense. We as the player know why Joel did what he did. But Ellie didn't. No one else close to Joel really knew what happened at the hospital. It's a dark little secret that Joel withheld from Ellie and everyone else be abuse he knew it would destroy his relationship woth Ellie, and it did. There is a reason why emphasized Joel's actions from part 1 in part 2. It's essentially the catalyst of Elli's confusion, and anger. And when Abby kills Joel, Ellie realizes she can never have that same relationship with Joel. It was taken from her. So now she doesn't have any closure from her now deceased father figure. I could go on about why this part of the narrative makes sense, but if you think it feels condescending, then you haven't thought about the "why" long enough.
@@waketp420 the condescending part is that they make you play as Abbie for the rest of the game, trying to make you like her and see her side, as if you didnt already understand. Ya I know Joel's not the perfect moral being, but you put any parent into the spot he's in and there is some understanding. The greyness and complexity of Part 1s ending made it beautiful. In Part 2 they really try to say, no forget all of that, Joel's actions were bad and maybe you shouldnt hate his killer that much because really its just the same cycle of violence, in fact here play as her too so you can reaally get it, as if we didnt know that already.
@@FluffythePersianCat u didnt understand thats why ure raging about playing as abby. Saying that you should support Joel because he's your PC aka part of your tribe is not "greyness" just little kids who are so invested in the story they dislike it when its not just a pure fan-service plot. That shows how successful the writers are.
I watched pulp fiction for the first time recently (didnt see why people praise it so much) and I got reminded of tlou2 pacing. Comstantly going back and forth and not straight forward.
This game is not for everyone (mature only), that's for sure. I loved it. I salute N.D. for the courage - and technical execution. I hope they will give us more.
TLOU: Part 2 is a masterpiece in story telling, regardless of how you look at it. It clearly took balls to write, which I have mad respect for! For me, the issue with the game is just Abby's crew. Mel and Owen make me want to put a gun in my mouth... Part 1 gave us some of the best characters in videom game history, Joel, Ellie, Tess, Sam, Henry, Bill etc. In Part 2 we get Mel & Owen...
Maybe it's just the fact that time has never made much sense to me anyway, but the pacing of TLoU2 has never bothered me. I Don't mind the flashbacks or the perspective switching at all, it all feels cohesive to my particular flavor of neuro-spicy
I still can't believe they canceled factions 2. For me it seems like after the controversy of TLOU 2, a multiplayer that most people love would be a good choice to keep players interested in the world of TLOU.
They just didn’t have the means necessary to keep working on it without sacrificing their single-player experiences, which would never be an option for Naughty Dog. While Factions is loads of fun, they as a company have always been defined by their masterful single-player stories
@@reid5868 in the same blog post that they announced the cancellation of factions, they talked about how they are currently working on two brand new single-player experiences. The remake and remaster have just been ways to make money and provide for consumers while they work on bigger projects, which literally every major game studio does (ie: Rockstar’s GTA and RDR remasters, the Alan Wake remaster, etc.)
While I greatly respect the way the game tries to get you to change the way you view a character and go from hating her to understand she’s merely another side of the same coin. I think it would be so much better if you started as Abby, didn’t know Joel or Ellie was gonna be in the game at all, and have to hunt down the smuggler who killed your father + learn who he is before finding out it was Joel and killing him. Then after you switch and play as Ellie. I think it would be great because we’d be rooting for Abby, wanting her to get justice for her father, only to then have the rug pulled from under us and A) be so conflicted about what to feel if you played the first game, having that pre-existing love and connection for Joel and Ellie but also now rooting for Abby and seeing how much her father’s death destroyed her. But B) also then seeing first hand how Abby sends someone down the same path she was sent down, as Ellie goes on the same path for justice. I feel that the overall story of part 2 really is great, just told in the wrong order at points for a video game. While there are the critiques of saying you shouldn’t kill people as a theme then the gameplay being the opposite, that kinda thing happens all the time in other games, such as W3 needing to find Cirilo but getting distracted, cyberpunk being a dying man but having time to do random gigs, Spider-Man having the city being destroyed by a plague but just stopping some people doing a robbery etc etc, I just think to try and bring the game down because of that is a bit weak since so many other games make that same pitfall.
I’m firmly in the “love” camp for this game. And I’m a huge fan of the original and its characters. I’ve never played anything like it. The original game was about love and this game was about hate (and the endless cycle it creates). This idea is punctuated by the death of a main character and the highly controversial decision to force you to play as the “enemy”. While this is unbelievably heartbreaking it’s what pushes the boundaries of story telling to a whole new level. It turns the whole video game hero concept on its head. In most video games you play as the the good guy and you are not given the opportunity to view other perspectives. You kill countless enemies with zero repercussions and and are constantly told you are justified in your actions. Part 2 not only shows multiple perspectives and motivations but also forces the player to take part in the cycle of revenge. It is a grim narrative set in a brutal universe but to me it carries a lot of weight.
I’m with you!! This game had my emotions all over the place and that’s what the devs intended. I love how dark the game is. There’s really no way to happy end in that universe. It’s a brutal world they were living in and the game really reflects that.
It's not Joel's death that annoys me in this game. I always expected him to. It's the way he dies and the entire structure of the game that comes after this. Eventhough, I do respect ND for taking a risk instead of playing it safe.
That’s the only fitting conclusion for Joel’s character. His arc was completed. It makes much more sense for his death to be the event that sets the story of Part II into motion than it ever would’ve for him to just peacefully pass from old age or saving Ellie in a gunfight. The Last of Us has always been a story about the power that love holds, and the result of Joel’s death is the most evident piece of storytelling for that point that we have ever seen from this series
@@nickhoadley6789 Joel saving ellie in a gun fight saying something like save yourself is what they wanted. A Hollywood approach that dosent fit this games tone that mimicks reality. You can't prepare for death I mean look at how Jesse died.
Related to what you say about the fact they should have not do part 2 as it was enough with just part 1, I think you can see part 2 as a part of one’s life that is tough and miserable but necessary. Part 3 would be the redemption that wouldn’t be possible without the story of part 2.
The game Luke is describing around 1:00 is basically Papers, Please and a lot of other indie games. There's a surprising amount of people who enjoy that kind of stuffs.
Honestly, the same death scene could have been received a million times better if they actually built up Abby to have you care about her BEFORE that scene. I still wouldn't have liked it, but at least I would have felt torn on the situation. The way it's currently set up made me want to let Abby die at all encounters and actively cheer for her downfall. Like in the fight against Ellie.
Definitely agree. Yet the defenders of the game would tell you that it was the whole point, to make you uncomfortable. To those people I would say that just because it was intentional on the developers part, doesn't mean that it was a good idea to begin with.
yeah but the thing is you can’t get the player to care about abby unless she does something to affect the player in the first place (i.e killing joel). if we started off learning about abby it would’ve been really confusing just playing as a random new character we’ve never seen before
@@rushil9881 Don't suppose you've played Kingdom Hearts 2? In that game we play the first three hours as Roxas, a completely new character. Of course we all were confused about what was happening and why we weren't playing as Sora. But most of us learned to care about Roxas by the time we went back to playing as Sora. This is just one example. So basically it can be done.
I disagree, because I feel like what appeals to me about the game is that I'm presented with a character that I immediately hate from the start of the game, and am then made to walk in her shoes. I feel like that's something that people hate about the game, that she's not made more likable before the action, to make us feel torn when Joel's death happens. The strength of the game for me is that it puts me, as a gamer, in a position I don't want to be in. I completely understand why people have a negative reaction to that. But for myself it's a strength, because it's forcing me to confront something I don't want to process.
I was one the people who never saw the leaks, but knew Joel was going to die. There are many complaints I have with the game, however the most serious offender to me is the way the game consistently failed to make me care. I didn't find the need to make things darker a problem, rather the way I could never immerse myself because I could see the story's intention and constant attempt at manipulating me, and in my head I just thought how pretentious it all seemed as the game kept failing to make me feel anything but disappointment.
Well said, I felt the same way, not to mention the pacing of the game felt like a slog with its semi open world and long winded sections without cutscenes broke up what made the first game so visceral and satisfying bouncing between story and gameplay. So when you take away the part of the game that I truly cared about and was immersed in (the story) and give me more gameplay between, it’s ultimately not working. 😢
I JUST got around to playing part 2 with my girlfriend and let me say, holy hell is this game fantastic. The first game will always hold a special place in my heart but the second one asks bold questions about morality, forces the player to make tough decisions that they may not agree with and in my case changes how I viewed certain characters actions. The last of us is always about asking the players how far they would go to save the ones they love and the second one explodes with questions surrounding revenge, rage, justice and letting go. Acting is fantastic, looks fantastic and plays incredibly well. Easily slides into my top 5 of all time and left me stunned at the end of every chapter
A lot of the media tends to follow similar narrative tropes and tend to air on the safe side, especially if it involves a popular IP that can make a ton of money. While it's not the most unique or groundbreaking story ever, I respect that naughty dog at least tried to take a swing at something like that. I also really like that the game was emotionally intense. Whether I was angry or sad, the game at least made me feel something. The same cannot be said for most stories in video games, TV, movies, etc.
Well see why most companys go for the safe side? Because of a majority people that can not comprehend such complex story. And yes it is complex, not the entire story itself, more like how the people in it interact and how differen sides are viewed.
The gameplay, voice acting, graphics etc are great, but the story and characters are bad. 1. Abby conveniently finding Joel. 2. Joel standing in the middle of a room of armed strangers, putting himself in the most vulnerable position possible. He may have softened a little, but he’s not dumb, and still regularly goes out into danger. 3. Abby’s crew letting Tommy and Ellie live despite the fact one is Joel’s brother, and the other clearly cares a lot about him and threatened you all. 4. Abby’s crew wearing their WLF patches so they can be identified. 5. Maria picking Ellie and Dina, two inexperienced teenagers to travel across the country to get Tommy, rather than older and more experienced people. Plus Ellie is the most emotionally compromised person in Jackson, making Maria’s decision even more idiotic. 6. Ellie conveniently finding pictures, including names, of all the people she’s looking for. 7. Mel conveniently hiding her belly when Ellie finds her, not to mention neither she or Owen tell Ellie that she’s pregnant when that’s something I think any parent or sane person would do. 8. Abby finding Ellie’s map she conveniently drops that leads Abby right to her. The story was full of moronic situations, and I personally didn’t like like any of the characters except Owen. And a final note, I don’t wanna play as a killer of a beloved character, let alone for nearly half the game.
@chandllerburse737 What I mean is when arriving in Jackson, she just runs into Joel, without having to do any work to find him. Regardless of if a more intelligent and sensible outcome was planned, the fact is the one the game has is bad. That’s a negative for those games too, but at least in their case the Uncharted series is a lighthearted Indiana Jones style game. TLOU on the other hand is meant to be a very serious and realistic series. If the choices and situations can’t be taken seriously, why should the players.
1. All stories have conveniences to a certain degree. Abby knows the town Joel lives in, they’re on the outskirts where Joel and Tommy are part of regular patrols and they bump into each other at the ski lodge. It’s established in a flashback later on that Joel and Tommy regularly go to said ski lodge on their patrols. It is a convenience, but it’s a perfectly acceptable one. 2. Tommy told Abby their names in the ski lodge before Abby suggests going to the house where her crew is held up. Going there was by far their best option for survival considering the circumstances. Seeing as they had saved her and she had helped them fight off numerous waves of infected, there’s no reason for them to suspect her real motives. Even if he was more cautious, it wouldn’t matter anyway because as mentioned before, Abby already knew who he was. 3. Well some of the crew wanted to kill them, but Abby and Owen decided not to and they were in charge. They said they felt killing them would make them as bad as Joel, which I get. Also, If you were part of a massive militia group I don’t see why you would worry about being hunted down by two people. If they were aware how dangerous they are, maybe that would have been different. 4. See above. 5. Maria didn’t pick them, she just knew that she wasn’t going to stop them. They maybe teenagers but they’ve demonstrated that they’re capable of handling themselves considering they can go on patrols. These aren’t teenagers who live in Beverly Hills, they’ve been living their whole lives in a tough, post-apocalyptic world. 6. I’ll give you that, but I don’t think it’s a story wrecking moment. 7. I think in a moment that hectic and emotionally charged it’s perfectly understandable that they’re more focussed on taking out Ellie than focussing on the pregnancy. Also Mel didn’t intentionally hide it from Ellie, she just had her coat done up because it was cold and pissing with rain. 8. Pretty convenient granted, but not egregiously so imo.
@@somanytakennames Doesn’t change the fact the timing is too perfect, with the guy she’s looking for just landing on her lap. He’s got decades of survival experience, he wouldn’t stand in the middle of the room, leaving him extremely vulnerable. And actually if Joel was cautious, which realistically he would of been, he wouldn’t of been blindsided by Abby and could of reacted. But Neil had to butcher his character to get his revenge story going. Except they’re already as bad as Joel, if not worse. They are part of the WLF which aren’t a nice group, that have killed innocents. They also traveled across the country and brutally tortured a man to death. Most of them, and Abby definitely considering that cutscene, would know of the relationship between Joel and Ellie, and therefore would understand why he did what he did, even if they disagree with it. Abby and Owen already talk about Jackson and how they are equipped and have a lot of people. And considering who those two people are, especially Tommy, they should fully expect that it wouldn’t be just two people, when those people belong to a well organised group living in a massive city. Nope, their actions and decisions are hypocritical and moronic. She is the leader, she is more than capable of containing Ellie like Tommy asked her to do. Instead she just lets her go, the most emotionally compromised person in the town. What makes her think Ellie of all people would find Tommy, and then say “ok now let’s go back home” rather than join him on the revenge mission. It’s ridiculous. Sending better and more experienced men who aren’t messed up emotionally is the sensible choice. Course not, but it doesn’t do the story any favors when crucial information like that just falls into your hands so easily. How is it? She has a gun pointing at them. Trying to take her on instead of saying something that could save your life or even give her pause for you to act, is stupid. It’s precisely why they both died. And it’s only raining in some parts of their location, as where they are standing it’s perfectly dry. No, but once again it’s all too neatly wrapped in a bow. If she found her through tracking, or making intelligent deductions it could make the whole thing fine.
The issue with Joel's Death is not that Abbey killed him or even that he was tortured in it. It's the fact THERE IS NO WAY Joel would EVER have let down his guard and dropped his weapon when outnumbered by Abbey and her crew. The death does not feel earned; it instead feels like the only reason Joel dies is because the writers decided he needed to die. There are any number of ways the death of Joel could have played out that would have made sense. Instead of choosing any of them, we get this garbage scene just to be shocked and provide the false narrative for the rest of the game.
Joel quite simply did not let his guard down. You could not be anymore wrong about that. For a start, Joel did very little wrong and everything you could argue he did wrong was in line with the better version of himself than the was trying to be. Tommy told Abby their names before they had any reason to suspect she had a group of heavily armed friends nearby. The only thing Joel and Tommy did wrong debatably was telling only Abby their names and rescuing her in the first place. They rescue her because they’re better people now and they tell her their names because she could’ve been a new member to Jackson, once saved. Apart from that Joel and Tommy did nothing else wrong and at every point try to either get away from the group or negotiate with them.
This doesn’t make any sense. Joel lived in Jackson for a number of years, and recruited many stray people and groups during that time, presumably without issue. He had literally no reason to believe that this group was looking for him specifically. You guys make up a bunch of stuff about Joel in your head and then get mad.
Joel got melted down with years of living with a family and with familiar comforts. Coming from someone who was a hardened asshole, once you have a family, that shit softens you up.
Dunkey has a good point on this. He said something like, Joel is not a psychopath you meet at the start of the game anymore, he grows to care for Ellie and in fact lets his guard down, in more ways than one.
Pre-Watch comment: So much TLOU2 discussion is led by people who havent played it or heavily misrepresent it after watching surface level TH-cam analysis videos (NakeyJakey). With the Remastered coming out, at least people who hate this game can try it for the first time.
My biggest gripe with the game was that they tried to retroactively make the fireflies the good guys favction to make Joels action seem as evil as possible, when in reality there are no good factions in this setting. The Fireflies of TLOU 1 are like the WLF in TLOU 2, just that one is the "science"-faction and the other is the "military"-faction. You have a few good people in it, but alot of them (especially at the top) are assholes. First remember that the Fireflies had a deal with Joel and Tess to bring Ellie to Boston for weapons. A deal they never planned to abide by. Second the first thing one of their "Soldiers" did after finding Joel trying to do CPR on Ellie is hitting him over the head with his rifle. Third from the voice logs especially from Marleen we know, that they left her no choice but to accept that they kill Ellie for the brain probes. They didn´t care for either Ellie or any other of their former "patients". They also planned to kill Joel, and it was Marlene, that would have let him go, but we don´t know what orders the soldier had who was with Joel afterwards. And from what we know from the Word of TLOU, most of it has turned to shit so even if they would have found the cure, there would have been no practical way to give it to all of what´s left of humanity. But point 1 and 2 are enough to reason in universe for Joel to not trust them with Ellie, because they didn´t gave him any reason to. On a meta level everything in the first game for me pointed to that they would have used the cure as a means to gain more power, like Immortan Joe in Fury Road used water to keep control over his territory. But then again, I was probabely one of a few couple of people who were not really hyped after the anouncement of a sequel, because I found that TLOU never needed one because it had the perfect ending, like I don´t need a sequel to FFXVI. And to be hones TLOU 2 didn´t change MY mind.
That's one thing I've seen a lot of people forget in regards to Joel killing the Fireflies in the hospital. They were escorting him away from the hospital to kill him instead of giving him the weapons as originally agreed.
My main issue is still that everything felt so forced. Joel lets his guard down so easily to get brutally murdered. Ellie kills dogs, pregnant women, becomes absolutely brutal, full of rage, combined with terrible pacing gameplay. Abby plays with dogs, cares for her friends, starts for no reason to protect two random kids which seems totally out of character for her, combined with better pacing and the more interesting gameplay sections. Then there are the countless flashbacks to give us that satisfying feeling of playing as Ellie and Joel again, even though they wanted to kill Joel off for storytelling purposes. If the writers wanted to make the protagonist/antagonist discussion less black and white, make sure to not portray the characters in black and white. Show that Abby and Ellie both can be remorseful, caring and forgiving, but at the same time also absolutely brutal, toxic and destructive.
My biggest issues were the pacing, having the split in the middle which is only surprising the first time if you weren't spoiled, and lack of agency especially with the quick time events. Joel can make mistakes, but the same thing could have happened with him not making mistakes if she saw his face. The game could have had moments with Ellie then switched to Abby much earlier hunting her father's killer. You don't realize until later that it's Joel. The audience still hates Abby, but understands her and essentially lead to the outcome. Switching back and forth earlier could have helped the pacing moving characters to where they needed to be then travel areas with very little around. The game is amazing, but the story and structure needed more of a collaborative effort than a single voice.
"Joel lets his guard down so easily to get brutally murdered." I've always seen this as a crutch people use to hate what happened to him, but it makes sense within the story. Joel in part 1 is a grizzled smuggler in a containment zone where they literally hang you for your perceived crimes. Jackson isn't that, he grew soft and comfortable since the end of part 1. He's around kids and parents, not killers. And yes, he might think someone could be hunting him for what he did to the Fireflies, but what are the chances this random group is ex Fireflies and they are looking for and found the only supposed Joel left in the world?
@@alexs1640Literally like the first scene in tlou 2 confirms how joel is still as careful as ever and its bad writing to not show it if that was the case.
I don't really agree with the argument that the game is only bleak and miserable, there is actually a lot of lightness, beauty and hope scattered throughout. Granted, several of those moments come in flashbacks, but it's not exclusive to them, e.g. the early Seattle stuff with Dina or certain parts with Lev. The birthday flashback is possibly the most beautiful scene ever created in a video game and the final flashback, as bittersweet as it is, is also stunning. All in all, the game is going to give you a lot conflicting emotions, if you're open to it. If that's not what you're looking for, fair enough, it's probably not going to be for you. But you know, that's okay, not everything has to be for everyone. One criticism I do agree with is the pacing. There's no question the game drags in certain areas. How much of a negative that is, is going to be different for everyone. For me it doesn't actively harm the game, I don't love it any less because of it. But it's definitely there and I get why it's a much bigger issue for others.
its is bleak, flashbacks are exactly that, meaningless back padding to the bleak and miserable, that's their point as a palette cleanser but that's the issue
@@marcusclark1339 Those flashbacks are NOT meaningless lmfao. They give extremely important context to the narrative and at regular intervals so that the story slowly begins to unfold before you. For instance, the Joel & Ellie museum flashback is not, on its own, very impactful. What makes it impactful is that we already know Joel is gone, so we appreciate every tiny moment we have with him, even if it's just a memory. That flashback wouldn't carry the same emotional weight had we not experienced Joel's death prior.
@@TheOutsider69 The museum is important because its a direct lead in to their confrontation in the next flashback at the hotel. Ellie needed to see the firefly logo with LIARS underneath because it plants the seed we see blossom when Ellie gets Joel to tell her to truth after she goes through the hospital.
Not interested in the remaster . I think just playing the game once, was more than enough. I’m curious to see how season two of the show is gonna turn out to be. Especially with Kaitlyn Dever, portraying Abby
I think you actually need to play it multiple times to really grasp the story. I don’t believe it’s a good thing that multiple playthroughs are necessary, but that’s still the case.
They killed Joel and introduced a meme of a character with Abby. Narrative story telling is top tier. Gameplay, top tier. The writing is the problem with this game. Abby's arms are ridiculous and shes laughably jacked 😂. I understand what they were trying to do with the narrative, it's just not what anyone wanted. Players fell in love with Joel and Ellie. People have nothing but disdain and contempt for Abby and the creators wanted you to love her. The narrative was trying to be creative and set up a story where they make you feel for someone thrpugjout the narrative that they make you hate in the beginning. Unfortunately the story telling didnt work. That disconnect between creator and player bred the negativity.
TLOU-2 failed in one major way: the narrative and pacing was shit. If Abby's storyline was first, fewer people would have gotten mad at Joel's death and actually would have felt conflicted since at that point they would have cared for Abby. But no, they wanted to "subvert expectations" and were shocked to find that people fucking hated that. This is what happens when a beloved character is unceremoniously murdered by an unpleasant newcomer and the writers try their absolute hardest to make you like them after the fact. It feels forced and artificial. Switching the narrative around may not have even helped, but by killing Joel in the first HOUR of the game they set impossible expectations that they just couldn't realistically meet and that's on them. And then there's Ellie's sections. This shit was just ridiculous. Nothing about the despicable acts that Ellie did made me feel "uncomfortable". They just made me feel irritated. You can't have me shoot a guy in the head, Ellie then calls him a fucker, but you turn around and say "oh look at the bad-evil thing you did!" by having someone yell the name of the guy I just murdered. Hearing people yell out the name of a dog that you force me to kill to progress doesn't make me feel anything either. Since much like the aforementioned fucker, you literally made me do it. The only way not to do bad things would be to turn the damn game off. Which in hindsight, I probably should have. "Evil" acts have no weight to them when the player is forced to do them. Even with the Abby/Ellie stuff set aside, the story itself just kinda fails on a basic level thanks to the limp-wristed cop-out of an ending Bad Puppy decided to go with. This is what happens when a story about right and wrong is penned by people who believe they're never wrong. I would have respected this game more if at the end, they allow the player to make the choice on whether to kill Abby. That would have been pretty wild and actually had subverted my expectations. But like everything else in this game, Disobedient Canine already made that choice for you. I'm starting to think that they should probably make movies, instead of unnecessary (and unwanted) sequels to already great games.
I’m right with you ! And the gameplay is more fun. You get a lot more stealth options to play with and the dodging mechanic was an excellent addition. Also appreciated the expansion of exploration and the verticality of the levels
@MR.__G I love that you can play completely differently with each playthrough. Stealth through and avoid as much as you can, be John Wick and kill all with no Stealth, be up close and personal, set up traps and lure people, the list goes on. My favourite is John Wicking my way through with a bit of stealth, hiding under trucks and taking out ankles before finishing them off 😄
To me Part 2 is a rare AAA game where it did not play it safe and took risks. In doing that though, made its flaws more apparent. Still it’s a game that does more right than wrong, and when it hits, it hits like no other game I’ve ever played. It’s a great game and very memorable for all the right and wrong reasons.
I agree, although I much prefer the story of the 1st game I give huge credits for the writers of part 2 for atleast making a story that takes risks and doesn't follow the usual Hollywood play it safe type BS
Abby may not be trans "now" because the backlash was so heavy but you cant blame people for believing that she is with those hulk hogan arms and the massive amount of masculine energy that she puts out. If it wasnt supposed to be a post apocalyptic wasteland where hormone treatments are non existent and the average womans build is nothing like abby, it seems to me that if the "abby is trans" narrative would have continued and probably won awards for being so progressive if it hadnt caused so much backlash.
Narrative wise, it’s not even like part 2 is super original in the sense where we focus on the antagonist for a major amount of time. I like to compare it to things like Captain America: Civil War with cap and tony, Revenge Of The Sith with Anakin and Obi Wan, or even MGS where you even play as the villain. Stories can work where you understand the antagonists perspective, but it needs to be earned. I feel like if Part 2’s narrative was just tweaked slightly and rearranged , it could have gone from polarizing to maybe even universally loved.
Honestly just rearrange some of the chapters or even making two different campaigns like how Resident Evil games did before would have made the narrative way better imo.
I think the reception would have been much better if the game started out on that flashback of Abby looking for her dad at that zoo. The game doesn’t give you enough time to like Abby as a character before she does the most shocking and polarizing thing possible.
The problem is that the narrative is separated as if it were two separate campaigns, punctuated just before the finale. It's as if you have Obi-wan's storyline, so that just before he lands on Mustafar, there's a cut and Anakin's storyline. Or like if Tony had the first half of the movie and then Cap the second half. Well, and somehow I've never heard that Abby's half is particularly praised.
@@rali5644I think the better question is have YOU watched ROTS? Clearly you haven't if you can't see why a former SLAVE who became a Jedi only to free his mother, and then have the Jedi FAIL to free her leading to her death, and THEN have them fail to do the same for his wife, might just hold a bit of a grudge against them. Lmao
The Last of Us Part 2 is a flawed masterpiece. The only thing I could possibly say negative about it is the structure which is jarring. Other than that, I believe it is one of the more challenging pieces of storytelling I’ve ever consumed. Challenging doesn’t always mean good, but I can’t deny, it’s also made me feel feelings I’ve never experienced before playing a game. There’s something to take away from that. And I take it positively
I think the fact its jarring is what makes it so compelling. That is precisely what the developers intended. SOO many people were against Abby and rightfully so but it means that this is exactly what the developers were going for when paired with the theme of the game.
@@ThisMrMisterI agree. Whether someone sees it as a negative or not, Naughty Dog did everything with thought in it. Everything is in service of either the characters, the story, and its themes. I can’t help but commend them for being so ballsy.
I don't think the story is particularly well done at all. It smacks you over the head repeatedly about its themes. Nothing more so than killing a pack of dogs and then playing with them after switching characters. Video game writing is a joke, these people catch lightning in a bottle then spend their entire careers trying to replicate it. That doesn't mean you have to commend everything after the first game as a masterpiece. I learned my lesson with that with Hideo Kojima.
Absolutely, I find TLOU2 struggles with subtlety a lot, especially in the way they try to make the story of Abby and her group mirror Joel and Ellie's in order to get you to sympathize with them (the pregnancy, the museum/aquarium flashbacks, Lev, and the mirrored dialogue moments). In TLOU, the characters feel like real people having real interactions with each other; in TLOU2, the characters often almost feel like they're held hostage by the storyteller, and that substantially detracts from the experience for me.
@@kevinjohnanand Gameplay wise sure. I watch a lot of movies and think I have a good sense of plot and theming. In this game both are cheeks. It's like a Tumblr fanfiction.
Telling a story in a video game and telling a story in a movie are 2 completely different things that are structured completely differently. In a video game YOU are the character you're playing as them there is a different kind of emotional attachment there. something you wouldn't experience in a movie not to mention how long video games are when you play for a very long time your attention span is likely to drop both of those reasons can lead to the story needing to hit you over the head sometimes comparing it to a 2 hour experience isn't really fair lmao. Also not sure what you mean with your lightning in a bottle comment the story of the second game is very different to that of the first game they are trying to replicate success yes but everyone is trying to make something successful if they made completely different franchise would they still be trying to replicate lightning in a bottle? No so why are they with tlou
@@zeyonaut To borrow an infamous phrase, TLOU2 has all the subtlety of a reversing dump truck without any tires on. It's particularly jarring as I thought Red Dead Redemption 2 did the 'cycle of revenge' theme a lot better just a couple of years beforehand. And that wasn't even the main theme of that game!
It's so heavy handed with its themes that you can't help but roll your eyes at a lot of the story beats as they unfold. Abby also has a father and they both save a zebra. She totally would have sacrificed herself if she was immune. Oh, her father figure also dies. She's a piece of shit in a brutal faction that is killing other people. Oh, she finds and saves a group of kids and ends up changing for the better. Lev is Abby's Ellie and Abby is Lev's Joel. Two sides of the same coin. We have come full circle from the first game. Which is why Abby's section is the strongest part of the game because it follows the rough template of the first game. It just ends up feeling bloated and over stays its welcome. It suffers from the whole sequel has to be bigger than the first game thing. It messes with the pacing and has too many characters that it wants you to care about in a short amount of time because of the character switches. If anything the HBO series will probably make better work of the story it wanted to tell. I feel like it would work better as a season of TV than it does as a video game.
100% agree. The game is extremely unsubtle and heavy handed, which is fine. Not every story needs to be nuanced and complex. I just wish the fans would accept this about the TLOU2 instead of pretending it's some incredibly nuanced, deep piece of high art.
The last part of your essay here is a bit concerning. The first TLOU takes roughly 15-17 hours to complete, adding on an extra 2 hours for the left behind dlc. The first season on HBO sped through the story in 9, 1 hour episodes, 1 being the dlc’s story. So they basically told the story in half time. Oh, and 1 episode was totally dedicated to bill and franks story instead of Joel, Ellie and Bill. So if that’s any indication, I’d dare say that the show isn’t gonna do any justice for the second games story either. Btw, I loved the show. None of what I just said is necessarily complaining about the show. Just saying that it was an awfully fast season. My only real complaint is that I wish they’d done more episodes and given more time for the ending at the firefly hospital.
@@ariel-y-e-m Both Abby and Ellie have daddy issues. Both share the same pain of that particular loss. Both are out there trying to find closure and it's disguised as revenge. Like, c'mon. The game isn't exactly subtle when it comes to all of that stuff. The game goes out of its way to tell you that not everything is as it seems and that the actions of characters you love have consequences. The us part of the last of us, you know? It wants to show you how fucked up things are from other perspectives of people trying to survive. It's why they gave the enemies names this time around. Trying to go the non black and white route. Which kind of fails. Especially in the Santa Barbara section.
I liked begrudgingly playing as Abby, only to have my viewpoint expanded by explaining why. And later found myself enjoying her as a character and her resolve, which magnificently matched Ellie's resolve. Eye for an eye. Dad for a dad. I understand people wanted feel good moments. I, however, liked tlou2. I never once found myself debating not playing the game.
@@jordanthompson8268 No you're a cry baby for coming to that opinion without playing it lol, no actual experience means you're just a giving in to what everyone else says cos you like being part of the tribe
@@XxParadoxGameplaysxX When the game first came out I watched a playthrough with no commentary, you know, something that's been on this platform for years. I've seen the game's entire story from front to back several times. It's what has informed my decision not to ever purchase the game.
The most disapointing game of all time is re released with no justification. You cant fix the story or change the core game no matter how many modes you add to it.
I think that while The Last of Us: Part II had a good idea for a story, the execution was so monumentally poor that it comes across as very disingenuous and very hostile to people that weren't connecting to the hemes. The whole transition to Abby at the climax of Ellie's story was so jarring and completely removes the players from the emotional beat. Not only that but the writers are telling you revenge is bad throughout the whole story but for some reason they justify Abby's revenge. I don't remember Abby ever feeling remorse over killing Joel, all she really shows is reluctance to killing Ellie. My idea for how this story should play out is tell both Abby and Ellie's story at the same time, breaking everything into chapters and alternating playing both characters. Abby's storyline begins with her planning to kill Joel and ending with her finally committing the act of killing Joel. Ellie's storyline begins with her trying to find Abby and ending with her catching up to her. This reserves the emotional beats at the end of their respective storylines and the whole theme of revenge being bad would be that much more effective because Joel's death and retribution would be back to back. Throughout their storylines, each character would show their uncertainty, Abby with following through with killing Joel and Ellie grappling with how far she is going to get revenge. It preserves the theme so much more. But the story we got was so broken and disjointed that the interesting story was so hidden behind so many nonsensical story points and confusing structure.
My opinion on the whole message vs fun debate is pretty simple, great games can do both. Disco Elysium, Deus Ex, Silent Hill, BioShock, all great games that both were fun to play and had strong messages. I find it disappointing some developers believe the two things are mutually exclusive.
They decided to switch the main character with the daughter of some random NPC you kill in the first game. That’s not good writing and Abby is way too muscular wtf is that about it’s not realistic at all
No idea what the point of this video is. The reasons many hate the game, especially the story, are well known and there's no convincing them that they are wrong when it comes to their issues with Naughty Dog's narrative decisions.
I really don’t like this argument that, “they should have never made it”. You can live in that universe, it’s called not engaging with the game. But if you have a critique, make it. Don’t cower behind this desire for it to just go away. It adds absolutely nothing to any discourse. It can’t.
TLOU2 is supposed to be dark and gritty , definitely not an upbeat good time. There's an M on the box for a reason. You play for the story, the quality, the gameplay, the spectacle, and those things are leagues above the rest of the industry. I absolutely want a part 3. What we need is more developers like naughty Dog to make games for casual gamers
@@ash8244 Must be why it's one of the highest decorated games in existence right? You sound more like a jealous fanboy than didn't even get to experience it, much less understand it. It's the most emotional game I've ever played. I'd dare to argue it's the most emotional game ANYONE has ever played. It's SUPPOSED to make you feel uncomfortable. That's what casuals don't understand.
I believe naughty dog achieved what they wanted they made players literally hate Abby I believe this game will still be talked about 10 from now like the original was
It won’t be it will either be talking in positive way or negative it’s controversial very few things in media do you actually share a feeling of hatred for a character this did and Game Of thrones did as well
TLOU2 isn't a bad game because it's not an escape from reality, it's just not the right game for people that don't like those kinds of games. I also agree with your pacing critiques. Thanks for the fair assessment.
I love the gameplay ( mostly the combat parts), the animations and environments. Story definitely let me down but I don’t hate it as much anymore honestly. Its so damn fun to kill people in this game its so strange. I love the combat and the animations more than anything.
Well they went from a decent story in the first game with exceptional character development. To a teenage drama which alienated half of the fan base. This is why you got people who love and people who hate it.
When you smash a fucking battle axe into the body of a living breathing human being, the game does a tremendous job of conveying the weight, rage and gravitas of that act. Or when u ram a dirty rusty shiv into your victims neck it feels so visceral and well "real" in TLOU II. Like yeah this is steel cutting through flesh making a person bleed out. Or that steel pipe I pummel people with is breaking all of the bones in their face. How the blows connect and the animations are flawless plus how the camera shake underlines the weight of the action it's so amazingly satisfying and yet terrifying.
They could have wrote off joel without killing him Abby could have seriously injured him to the point he is useless in a fight, anyway I think if they had let the players play as Abby first up to the joel encounter then you play as Ellie and you stay as Ellie after Joel's death now you have a more enjoyable plot to at least playthrough
Honestly when the first game happened I called bulshit that he just walked away from all of that scot-free. So I kind of felt Justified when he got killed in such a way during part 2. Also makes me think about how in life sometimes people go out not how they want to go out but rather in almost a cheated way. That's just life and I was actually impressed that they did it the way they did
I wasnt surprised Joel got killed he did too much to not have that outcome despite his reason for doing so either however a part of me love to think about if joel survived the encounter but waa changed in a permanent way seeing Ellie being driven by revenge and getting lost in that is a punishment in itself
The story wouldn’t work if Joel survived. There is no chance Abby would have left Wyoming with him still alive, there’s no chance Ellie would’ve gone after her if he was still alive, and there’s no chance the player would’ve saw red enough if he was alive still. Joel’s death is literally the only way this whole story could get put into motion. It had to happen
@@nickhoadley6789 the story could still work Abby is driven by revenge she could very easily be satisfied if she gave joel brain damage or crippled him even if she didnt kill him. She hates what Joel has done even if she didnt succeed in killing him the fact that joel will never be able to defend himself in a zombie apocolypse is a fate worse than death. The thing is that they were other ways Naughty dog could have wrote off Joel as a character I know killing off a character is always the most popular solution but sometimes it might not be the right choice when it comes to a story that is about hate and how that changes you. Ellie would have still wanted to go after Abby after she damn near beat Joel to death and made her watch, the events of the game still happen but this time instead of ellie seeing joel when she lets Abby go she looks at lev while she is strangling Abby and sees herself in him when Abby beat Joel and she lets her go realizing if she continues this cycle Lev could comeback and do the same to her and do it in front of JJ
@@theoutsiderjess1869 this just isn’t true though. Joel literally had to die for this story to work. Whether or not you think killing him was a good idea is up to each player, but it’s necessary for the story. There was no chance in hell Abby would’ve let Joel live. She was so blinded by her hate towards him that it consumed her life. She wasn’t gonna have him in her hands after so many years of pain and just decide to let him go because he was hurt enough
Dumb story, great gameplay. A shame if you will. Like seriously, why would Joel and Tommy help a stranger and tell them their full names. That alone helped create the dumbest death in the history of video games. They couldn't even let Joel last over 3 hours into the game. What an absolute fail by Naughty Dog. (I beat TLOU 1 many times)
Play a game that will actually make you happy by trying Warframe: t.warframe.com/c/fl8fkm
Luke Stephen, you can not simply lure people to be convinced that easily to defend this absurd game to every gamers 😂😂😂
Bro let it go ITS A SHIT GAME...with bad, lazy and nonsensical writing ...and most of all the WOKENESS in it killed it.
Its a shame the game of the year awards were rigged because of political bias, otherwise would had
Final Fantasy 7 remake
or
Ghosts of Tsushima
won game of the year in 2020
@@tanelviil9149 Which part? Ellie being gay? She was gay back in 2013 in the DLC but hey, there wasn't "wokeness" in the conversation, so nobody gave a fuck.
Crying about wokeness is more obnoxious than the screaming lib meme.
They shouldn't have killed joel off
@@tanelviil9149 schizo
I think a Japanese reviewer (idk the source) had the best description about TLOU 2's narrative;
"It's about what's right and wrong, from the people who think that they're always right."
DAMN this is too accurate.💀💀💀😂😂😂
Ngl thats a great review.
I don't get it.
Ironically, fans always think they’re right.
Yeah, I saw that quote before and a lot of people seems to agree with it.
For me, so many of this games issues come from its structure. In the first game everything flows so naturally and logically with their journey from east to west. Here, like you said characters are fast traveling all over the country and timelines are shifting constantly, which really kills a lot of momentum from chapter to chapter. The whole California epilogue really felt forced or out of place, and it was sad to see Ellie learn nothing from the previous events up to that point.
I think they did an excellent job of making you feel the loss of Joel, and his absence from the game is so noticeable and it makes you connect with Ellie that much more. The problem is if you’re gonna take out your beloved main character in the first hour of the game, whatever is replacing him (Abby) has to be that much more engaging instead. And for myself, there just wasn’t enough time spent making that genuine connection with her like they did with Ellie in the first game. None of her friends are particularly likable, and even if you disagree it doesn’t matter as they’re often killed almost immediately after getting any screen time.
Unfortunate that a game with so much potential and such fun gameplay and really cool set-pieces (the hospital boss comes to mind) ended up becoming such a disappointment. I feel like somewhere in there, there’s a 10/10 sequel if they had just fixed the structure/pacing and spent more time exploring Joel and Ellie’s relationship after he made that choice to save her.
Agree, I think that if the played out the story in chronological order it would have hit harder and would of given the player more time to get used to and like Abby!
Agreed, also can we talk about how bogus crying for Sarah’s death is considering her screen time is less? I feel what you felt with Abby’s friend except with Sarah, despite the game and everyone talking about how important she is. Felt like fans did most the work caring for Sarah.
Also how do you feel about the Joel death fake out cut? A piece in the story cutout for dlc. That’s one thing I disagree with, it did not flow natural and logically during that part.
I know this is about part 2 but part 1 has flaws that fans called perfect and as such Naughty Dog felt comfortable with making even bolder moves than cutting out story for you to pay for in a dlc.
this was perfectly said. everything is there to make a 10/10 game, just the minor changes that you noted were needed
@@youngnat Yeah I think when people get sad about Sarah it's more about what she represents for Joel rather than her as an actual character. Him having lost a daughter is such an important piece of who he is and why he is so reluctant to get attached to Ellie. Honestly my favorite scene in the first game is at the ranch when Ellie finally gets Joel to realize that she's his family now and he can put Sarah's death behind him. But I get what you mean, she is only in the game for 15 minutes lol
For me that section didn't feel out of place, as they're still moving toward their goal of finding the fireflies. I don't remember feeling like they specifically took out the part of the story that happens in Left Behind just to sell it as DLC. Like to me having to play more as Ellie and go get the medicine or whatever happens in the DLC would've harmed the pacing imo, but it's been a while since I first played it so I'm not sure.
Yeah no game is perfect. I think they definitely felt like they could do no wrong after the first game was so universally praised, so they really tried to do something crazy which I can respect. They just weren't quite able to put it all together
I agree. Maybe they desperately wanted to be as profound as the first game. Unfortunately they missed the mark
I've always said if Naughty Dog wanted the player to sympathize with abby and see both sides of the story then we needed to play abby before we play the events with Joel. We needed to see her human side and then drop the bombshell of the relationship between the characters. The way Naughty Dog introduces Abby in an irredeemable moment then asks the player to see her side was was almost narratively impossible given the emotions the player would have already experienced
you talk about these players who think Joel is a good man? really???
even the first part ended with a selfish Joel who lied to Ellie
they did the right thing...you should hate Abby at first, I hated her and I wanna kill her...but than they showed me her pov and I understand her and even liked her.
It was just bad execution and I heard that's actually how it was initially planned was to play as Abby before Joel's death.
@@la_engineerhat are you 12? This is the most pathetic and "woe is me" argument of them all. Joel saved Ellie's life and risked his own doing so and y'all just wanna say "Joel Lied🥺😢." Only people with victim mentalities think this way. This is why I can't stand Ellie because she becomes just as bad if not far worse than Joel in the second game and ends up doing the same things she judged and mistreated Joel over. And can't forget the part where she breaks down and stops talking to Joel because he lied. Smh. 😂
The only reason she was even kicking was because of Joel and she had no right to complain.
You know what while I'm ranting Joel should've just let them kill Ellie then y'all would've been crying over that.💀💀💀
If the point was to hate Abby then we never should have played her if the point was to see her side of the story then we should have been introduced to her in a less incendiary manner. After that point in the story I didn’t care what her side was. 🤷♂️
yara and lev are incredible characters, genuinely. i loved every second of them on screen and wanted to learn so much more
They are BY FAR the most realistic characters in a gaming history, Imagine the world collapses, everyone fighting for resources, zombies, cannibals, etc and some USA kids made a tragedy about being missgendered and run away from their parents 😅
@@et2k166 that was NOT what happened??
Not by a mile. want to see complexity in characters check out the mass effect series. look at Jin Sakai and his uncle shimura from GOT. So many more well written characters in gaming then a little Ellie knockoff
Honestly, this story isn’t insane. As much I’d hate to admit it, almost every decision these characters make are accurate with what THEY would actually do. This is the story of how Ellie became a broken woman in a relentless world.
I love it for what it is. Because no matter how emotionally and physically draining this game is, it impacted its player in a way no other video game could. it’s why we still talk about it. It’s not perfect, but it doesn’t need to be.
Wrong opinion.
I think my biggest issue with part 2 is that the first game although having great writing and characters you actually gave a shit about was built off a foundation based around the relationship between Ellie and Joel. The writers of two forgot that although the game would’ve been good nonetheless due to how well the writing was, what made it GREAT was these two characters and how the built off of each other and were directly a part of each others arcs. So when the second game came out, and we see them hating each other all of a sudden and then the main character of the first game getting brutally murdered by someone we are forced to play as for multiple hours AFTER the fact, people were rightfully pissed off.
It's not "rightfully" if I'm not the target of the product it's not the product's fault, because whoever is has understood everything very well, I don't go under Mario Kart games and say "they're things for children, what do I do with this dumb thing?" no I just don't play it and I understand that it has more value to other people, that's why this is a "non-criticism".
This industry is evolving along with the people who use it, it is stupid to give credit to these people who hate anything that is not made for them.
They didn't forget anything. That relationship had hard lies attached to it, and because of that, the consequences followed. Yall don't understand what good writing is if that's the excuse being attached to it. Joel was not a good person and he lied to Ellie after she confronted him about the truth. Everything that follows is a direct result of that. It's how real relationships work. Their relationship being good and happy is not a crutch meant to carry a franchise.
People can be mad, sure, but it was deserved. Anyone trying to say that's bad writing lacks a comprehensive understanding of what character motivations are and how consequences have repercussions.
I think Joel dying made sense but it’s the forcing the player to play as Abby that didn’t. Also the constant cycle of Ellie’s revenge felt like it dragged on too long
@@noahverstynen8091 this is because there is something more important behind revenge, but I understand that for some it is too difficult.
Correct. But that's how it should be. Cause and effect.
I hated Abby for what she did. Playing as her was hard. But as I saw things from her POV I started to realize she wasn't the bad guy and she did exactly what anyone else would do. If some super likeable guy killed your dad would you let him off the hook because he's super likeable? "My pleasure Joel, murder my family whenever you want". Or would you track him down and get revenge? This world is very much a revenge world and not a forgive and forget world.
The second game is mainly great because of the combat and attention to detail. It's a stunning feat. But it's also great because it shows you the world from different points of view. There is no good guy and no bad guy. There is cause and effect and that's it.
So by the end I was on Abby's side, even though I'm the first person who would have killed her dad to save ellie.
I'm sorry but it's not lying by cutting in that one clip of Joel. They never said you would play as Joel in any marketing and never even showed an image of what he looked like until that one trailer close to launch. Movies and tv shows cut or manipulate footage all the time to throw the audience off. This was such a nothing burger of a complaint. No one gave a shit when Avengers did it with the Hulk in infinity war (because Marvel wanted the Avengers losing to Thanos to be a surprise) or when MGS2 made an entire game playing as Raiden instead of Solid Snake.
17:20 but who in the last of us story is in the right?? Who??? No one is written with clear morals in that story because most likely the good hearted ones died.
The only characters which we written with a sense humanity is Joel and Ellie. Ellie was abandoned by her mother, her friend etc Everyone either want to hurt her or use her, everyone except for Joel. Joel didn’t even care about the world, he just wanted his tools. The fireflies used this as a crux to have him carry Ellie. He fought so hard not to get close to her but she won him over. He then realizes the hope through Ellie and Ellie realized her meaning of self through him.
It’s not our fault these characters were wrote this way. If Marlene and co or anyone else were written this way, it would have been the same love from fans.
Joel and Ellie’s story was a peek humanity. A father and and a child is the pinnacle to human love and purpose. We all naturally understand this bond because it’s a bond which has existed since the birth of our history.
Who would care about the world when the world is only self serving and takes away our love and hope. The world only care about the masses because only the masses can feed it. Joel lost everything to the world. So should he have also sacrificed his only remaining cherishment to the cold grasp of the world???
Luke milks this topic as often as Naughty Dog milks these 2 games.
Legitimately my only grievance with this game is the way Joel dies. It’s not even the fact that he dies, but how. It seemed so out of character, and contrived. Everything else, including the narrative framing and themes, is masterful.
What about the pacing of the story? Don't you consider it kinda weird that just as the conflict with Abby is heating up, we suddenly have to play as her for the next 8 hours before resuming that conflict? In a storyline that has barely anything to do with Ellie's and could've been it's own game or DLC?
Joel changing a little bit in 5 years of recruting people outside of Jackson is not strange.
Joel changed DRAMATICLY through out Part 1 too (that's the entire point) in not even 1/5th of that time.
Tommy has recruited people for Jackson for even longer and is used to introducing himself to recruit them into Jackson.
That's why HE does it so easily to Abby (No it wasn't Joel)
>out of character and contrived
If you weren't paying attention to what was unfolding on screen, then sure.
The way he died was consistent with the tone of the series i.e. brutal and miserable. People who say "oh it's not the fact that he died it's HOW he died" always propose some corny-ass shit as alternative like "he should have BRAVELY sacrificed himself, taking out MULTIPLE infected and militiamen to save Ellie's life" or some saccharine nonsense like that
There wasn't anything out of character about it
What I find wild, is that everyone acknowledges that this game has some of the best graphics, sound design, voice acting, and really anything that involves presentation, ever. It also has one of the best stealth combat gameplay ever. Some of the best AI ever...so it essentially is one of the best in every category, except not everyone likes its story.
Which is fine, but there is no way marking the game a 3 out of 10 or something makes sense. Objectively speaking, it's at least a 7. Due to how incredible it is in so many areas.
Except it is a 3/10 or less. Everything else is just built upon what was already there, you should expect that shit at bare minimum and then to be carried up by the story. The story is so fucking dogshit it dragged it down
@@TheNightman.No, this is you being emotional and unable to look at things objectively
Metal gear solid 5 has way better stealth gameplay and way better ai.
Luke : “It is not okay when people spread rumors and lie about the game” Also Luke: “I understand why Naughty Dog putout misleading trailers it just makes me feel icky”
It's a blatant case of False Advertisement, and I have yet to be given a good reason why anyone should be "ok" or "cool" with.
@@chriswihuluthen you’re really not listening.
@@scruz6293 my hearing or lack thereof, is not an argument...
Please, do inform me why we should accept trailers lying to us, especially as Naughty Dog must have made two versions of the same cut scene and chose to show the one that wasn't in the game, in their "Story Trailer".
@@chriswihulu because it was additive to the experience of the game. Once I had context and saw why it was advertised the way it was i was completely sold. My expectations were gone and the game showed it was now capable of anything. The traditional story telling rules were out the window. And it was significantly better for it.
@@scruz6293 can you include that "context" cause it quite literally, just sound like you were shown a lie, found out it was a lie and wanted to see what else turned out to not be true.
If it's about the leaks, the best I can say is, it sucks that it happened, but that doesn't make it alright to pull that kind of stunt. Game trailers are given specific descriptions, as to indicate what parts of the game they show; sneak peak, first look, gameplay, story, etc.
That trailer in question, is the Story Trailer, as such, it is meant to showcase bits and pieces from the game's story. If they show scenes in that trailer, that doesn't appear in-game, in any way, then that isn't additive nor is meant to remove your expectations, it is false advertisement.
If it was meant to remove your expectations and break away from traditional story telling methods, why isn't the entire story different from what is shown in the promotional material? Why wasn't it just an Abby game, since we can now expect anything that we've been told, might turn out to be false?
No, they did this, specifically, to showcase Joel as if he was alive and part of the story, just so they could laugh in people's faces and say "lol, how dumb you are, for listening to leaks! Look, you can clearly see he isn't dead!"
If we apply your reasoning going forward, any trailer from Naughty Dog now or in the future, must have bold letters in them in every frame, saying; "any and all scenes in this trailer, may or may not have been made, purely as an 'additive to the experience' and must not be seen as an official representation of the game".
Honestly the Pacing, the sense of dread and the emotionally draining aspect was what i loved about it 😂. It felt so real.
I also loved the emotionally draining aspect a lot but the pacing is horrible for me
I did not notice the pacing at all. Completely engrossed.
You haven't been through any harsh realities then. This game is not realistic in its depiction really at all lol
@@theincrediblefella7984 the aspect of life isn't always fair, and stupid things just happen sometimes.
The funny thing is I enjoyed Abby story and gameplay more than ellie.
They should not put Joel and ellie in this game
Joel instantly became dumb was so unreal
It was the stupidest thing ever. Hey stranger, "My name is Joel Miller and this is my brother Tommy Miller."
@txup92g33 Tommy told Abby their names. Not Joel.
Also it's literally 5 years inbetween Part 1 and 2 where Joel spends his time recruiting people outside of Jackson and taking them in. If you can't believe Joel can't change in 5 years you missed the point of Part 1 where he changes completely from start to finish in just a few months.
@@misterhoobomaster Joel gaves his name. Literally the cutscene proves you wrong.
@@misterhoobomaster All that supposed change during those 4 years (yeah it's 4, not 5) happened off screen, no one can definitively prove that such change has really happened. Ideally in a well written story you would gradually show and set up such a character change to the audience, and not let them write the story for you and just assume that it has maybe happened.
@misterhoobomaster you're right on the Joel part, but Tommy saying their first names was idiotic nonetheless
I was pumped when LoU2 was announced and even pre-ordered the collector's edition, but when I heard about the leaks and golfing references, I canceled and got the standard version. Personally, I think Neil Druckman knows how to construct a story and create interesting characters, but his attitude towards a lot of the valid criticism of the game really put him in a bad light for me. I think Bruce Straley was more instrumental to the first Last of Us than he's credited for. Granted, talented artists can strike out, too, but Druckman strikes me as someone that needs to be told "No" or really reigned in on certain aspects of his storytelling.
I'd be fine with Joel's death if the lead-up was better and we got to see his more softened behavior in regards to him being more welcoming of strangers and all that. I also think Druckman did a disservice to the first game's blurred morality by painting Joel's actions as purely black and white. It was pretty annoying watching Ellie miss the point of Joel's choice once she had a child of her own.
In regards to Abby, she wasn't well written to me as a character considering how the game doesn't even give us time to adjust to her before she kills Joel. If anything, it felt like the game was hinting the world would probably be better without either Abby or Ellie, and I was hoping they would've killed each other by the end considering how overbearing the game is about the idea of cyclical violence and hatred.
The game is great to play tho, but the story needed a lot more time to cook. At least for me, Part II tainted the series overall. Just because an artist takes a big swing, that doesn't mean they should get more leeway from valid criticism.
Can't wait for this game to re-enter the public consciousness with HBO's take and hear the passionate, but reasonable discourse
I feel the same in regards to Druckmann and Straley. I remember years and years ago not long after the first game launched they had an interview together with I think IGN and Druckmann talked about how he originally wanted to have Tess be the final boss in the first game and she had chased Joel across the country and Straley or somebody else told him no as it didn't make sense in context to the world.
This is the story Druckmann always wanted to write and nobody was going to tell him no now that he was in charge.
Great video and on point! Lol while I enjoyed the gameplay I feel like the story itself was emotional torture for the sake of emotional torture, this was the first game I ever finished that literally had me say “that was too much” and I’ve yet to replay it yet despite the great gameplay
Me too I swear I told myself I will never play this game again because it was too mentally draining but now with the remaster I’m going to give it another go
Strange I had the exact opposite experience. I never replayed the first because the ending hit me too hard and frankly I watched Logan and Children of men and enjoyed those narratives more. But I had to replay the sequel because the narrative was so captivating and unique
For me, this story worked. I don't know, I felt mad at Abby, then I felt mad at Ellie, after that when I started killing Wolves I was like, wtf, why am I doing this.
And just when you had enough of it, they give you the opportunity to blast some pieces of shits and actually save Abby in the end, It was fucking awesome.
Even if many of the leaks as you say may have been wrong, to me the two most important ones were true, Abby kills Joel and you have to play half the game as her, and that was enough to make me not want to buy and play the game.
It's no different if David killed Ellie in the first game, and then you had to play as him for 12 hours. So I thank whoever leaked the details.
I was completely Meh about the game to be honest. But I can see why it was so polarizing. Me personally there were way too many characters that I was supposed to care about but didn’t and the game was simply too long in my opinion. I loved the focused, shorter story of the first game. As far as Joel, didn’t mind what happened but the timing probably could have been done better.
I almost feel guilty and ashamed or even dumb that I love tlou2 because of the controversy and heavy criticism it gets. I loved the acting, gameplay, cinematography, soundtrack, sound design, themes, tone, it’s darkness, it’s somberness, it’s humanity and yes it’s story. I do agree that it’s got pacing and structure issues, but I just can’t not love it and sometimes find it hard to understand why it got so much hate and heavy criticism.
it often gets labeled as a “revenge bad” story, but I wholeheartedly disagree. I think it’s a story about grief, guilt, shame, depression, empathy, self destruction, love, hate and ultimately forgiveness.
I don't like the game at all but don't feel ashamed for liking it. Nobody but you has any right to decide what you like people telling you you're wrong for liking it can be promptly told to f*ck off. We can debate if it's good or bad but enjoyment is subjective to each individual and should stay that way.
You are in fact emotionally mature insightful and intelligent.
The theme of TLOU 2 never felt like it was hate. The keyword of the theme in my eyes is “Perspective”
I think everyone expected Joel to die….we just didn’t want it to be 2 hours into a 30 hour game that we waited 7 years to see this character again. There was nothing except for pt1 for years, ironically now TLOU is everywhere every year. I think we just wanted more Ellie and Joel. I think you could certainly kill him, do it midway? Sure a new story is then required because we need motive to even get in this dilemma. Early drafts made it seem as if the group would infiltrate slowly and then turn on us in Jackson. I don’t know what beats you could fill in for that but, it probably would of worked much better. That being said you could frame dozens of other stories where we don’t kill Joel right away, yes is it an unprecedented move that is meant to fuck your head up, it’s the catalyst for this game, and let’s us know noone is safe but…I don’t think doing that inspite of how games treat their protagonists worked here. As we loom over a pt3 we even more so look and question on if they could of made a better story for this now franchise that seems apparent it isn’t over yet.
Woh to say the AI and stealth are better than anything out today is a plain lie, you could easily sit in a doorway waiting to stealth kill whole rooms one by one.
spoken like someone who didn’t play grounded
Agreed. I played on the hardest difficulty and apart from the "boss" fights, using stealth felt cheating as it was so dead easy to just... wait and pick off enemies. It didn't work as well as in something like Dishonored or Batman to me.
For real, sit in a corner or behind piece of cover after setting traps in all doorways. Throw a rock nearby and watch the enemies walk into the traps mice going for the cheese on the mouse trap.
@@niallp.o.7567 No because I didn't want to go through a terribly paced slog of a game all over again. What kind of argument is this anyway? grounded would just show up the bad AI even more because it's so easily manipulated, and the best way to get though the hardest difficulty.
Honestly, I think people would have less issues with TLOU2's narrative if it didn't take itself so frigging seriously.
Every game has "ludonarrative dissonance" issues, every game makes the player do things that come into direct conflict with the narrative in some way, but very few of them take themselves as serious as TLOU2.
And since the game is so very obviously trying to be important and tackle themes in a very serious and grandiose artsy way, all the narrative issues become exponentially bigger. I wouldn't mind the fact that I'm killing people violently by the hundreds, and having a blast doing it btw, if the game didn't try so heavily to tell me the violence cycle perpetuated by both protagonists by them dehumanizing each other was successfully broken in the end when they let each other live. The heck does that cycle of violence even matter anymore after I've killed so many people and started so many other cycles of violence anyway?
All that being said, my biggest issue with TLOU2 by far is the pacing. I can very easily overlook all the issues I have with TLOU2's narrative (even besides the one I mentioned previously), but the pacing is just atrocious. Every time I think about replaying it, I get preemptively tired by all the boring stuff I'll have to go through to enjoy the good stuff. The beginning is so meandering, switching perspectives so many times right off the bat, then so many flashbacks along the game, so much walking and talking, so many pointless looting sections, and then the game restarts in the middle to focus on a character you haven't played as, or even seen for hours, with a completely different set of characters, halting my progression right at the peak of the narrative tension, frankly, I get tired just talking about it.
I always hear that. People say you either loved or hated this game but for me it was just so emotionally exhausting I was just glad it was over.
Flexing your communication and educational background on this one Luke, and I'm here for it. Your rhetoric and oratory style has gotten so strong, and I enjoy your pragmatic and logical approach to the game industry.
I think it’s a very interesting and brave sequel with a lot of writing problems. It takes a lot of big risks, but the thing with risks is sometimes they don’t pay out and you’re left with major parts of the story feeling a bit rough. It’s an incredible looking game with a lot of interesting and difficult to deal with themes. I’m happy it exists. I do not think it’s perfect but I would rather have it as this weird artistic experiment than not have it at all. On the whole I think the experience is more great than bad.
I understand how people might think a sequel is unecessary, but I just disagree. I don't think sequels can be necessary or unecessary, they can either be good stories or bad stories. In the case of The Last of Us, I think the sequel is, narratively speaking, very good and its existance justifies itself because it is a good story and it is properly executed.
Of course, there are people who may not have liked the sequel and that is totally OK. But that doesn't mean that its existance is unecessary
What I am trying to say is that the creator (in this case, Neil Druckmann) is well within his right to believe his creation deserves a continuity, wether it is a sequel, a prequel or whatever, and that decision is valid in itself. What the audience should judge is how good that new story is, not if it should have existed or not.
My problems with the narrative can be summed up to it being a plot driven story instead of a character driven story instead like the first game. Characters are moved around like chess pieces to get the plot going and not enough attention was paid to the details and character motivations to make it make sense. Edit: The marketing also straight up lies to everyone. As you go over the marketing says Joel is going to be more involved in the story than he actually is. ND knew this and did so on purpose knowing people wouldn't bite otherwise. One of the Metal Gear games, I think 3, did it right all the footage of Snake was used in the prologue no model swapping necessary.
Unless you're writing a sprawling fantasy epic that takes place over many years and differing lands and is more about time and places, there is no such thing as the difference between a plot driven story and a character driven story. Character is plot. There are characters in Part II and they move the plot.
What you're probably trying to say is that Part II is more of an external genre based story than internal genre. And perhaps there's a grain of truth to that. But it's certainly not a fully external genre based story.
Yep, I don't even need to talk about the story, the characters or anything else, when we see what they did with the Story Trailer. Legit, it's so egregious that I have no interest in actually playing the game, because pulling a stunt like ND did, isn't something I've ever seen before.
You're right that it was Metal Gear Solid, but the second game in that line and yes, they did not make extra material, to Bait buyers into playing the game, as if to say "don't believe the leaks!".
People were calling out Naughty Dog after Uncharted 4 came out for not having the balls to kill off anyone and having a happy ending.
Well, seems like Naughty Dog listened and went bolder, not just for shock value but for what The Last of Us world is. Unforgiving. It’s all about perspective.
1:21 Hey! Have you been spying on me? 😮
Neil Druckman said that the first story is about love and that Part II is about justice. I think that even he is wrong about that. The theme in Part II is very clearly about agency, especially from Ellie's point of view. The final memory with her and Joel is crucial. She says that she should have died in that hospital and her life would have meant something. She's mad at Joel for removing her agency. She should be mad at the Fireflies for removing her agency. She is obviously mad at Abby for removing her agency. She has a deathwish. That's why she goes to Seattle on a hunt for vengeance. She wants her life to mean something. She's also nineteen and grieving and I have never understood the argument that she's a character making decisions that don't make sense. Um... hello? Do people not understand how grief works? Have you ever met anyone grieving deeply? They aren't exactly coherent... So, in a way, her actions do make sense.
I don't agree that there is no emotional pay-off by the end. A lot of people wanted Ellie to kill Abby and THAT would have turned the entire game into a generic, run-of-the-mill tale of revenge. She finally woke up and made the right choice. So I fall into the category of LOVE THIS GAME. I hope there is a third game with Ellie, Abby, Tommy, and Lev and they can work on the theme being forgiveness.
🤷♂
You know what's even more depressing than a game with a depressing story ? A world where people do not want artists (game devs) to make these kinds of games because "oh no it's not fun."
Exactly. Not every story has to be sunshine and tainbows
there's a massive difference between a game not being fun and a game not being light-hearted. MGSV has the best stealth gameplay of all time easily and its story is never, ever light-hearted.
@@TheFirebreathermgs story isn’t dark or is a tragedy compared to last of us though
yes it fucking is lol, its a story that tackles way better and in a more imaginative way how empty revenge actually is.@@tomohawkcloud
🤓
Imo they should NOT be marketing the ‘remaster’ as a remaster… they should be calling it a directors cut because that’s effectively what it is! Some amazing new content I’m really excited for
Except it’s not a Director’s Cut. It’s not adding unfinished content into the main story mode or a DLC story. All of those "Lost Levels" are a completely separate thing from the story mode.
@@Infinite_Ethan_03 well if not a directors cut maybe something else. It’s doing it a disservice as they’re adding a whole new, cool mode which a lot of people will look past
Honestly, they could have just made it a free "Next-gen Upgrade" and sold the new Mode as actual DLC, cause as far as I have been able to find find out, you need to upgrade in order to play that mode, which is kinda scummy, imo.
@@chriswihulu I don’t see it as scummy at all, you’re getting a remaster, new lost levels, new unlockable skins and a whole new survival mode for $10, seems good value to me. I do agree that they should have called it a next gen upgrade though
@@kjgames888 it wasn't really clear what I meant, reading my comment again. I meant, it feels scummy to charge for an upgrade, which is the only way to access that extra content, as far as I can tell.
What if you don't own a PS5, or just want to play the extra content, because it seems to be the case, that they lock what is essentially DLC, behind a Remake version.
Especially when we just saw GoW: Ragnarok release their DLC for FREE, no forced upgrade or extra charge, especially as I can't tell how "Valuable" the Extra Content in the Remake is.
I have been thinking of this game for the better part of 2 years every month or so I watch it played by someone.
Your video gave me a good perspective on the opening the leak and the pacing of the game.
The game is based on the Greek tragedy The Orestia. With the player being Cassandra.. she is doomed to know how the story plays out but unable to effect rhe outcome(Cassandra is written on the movie theatre you hide in to give you more hints.)
I think the leak was intentional. To put you I'm the position of knowing it's coming but you can't do anything to change the outcome.. you just know it's coming and it's going to hurt. Then you go back to play as ellie and watch her fall into anger and depression... you can't do anything to help her just watch it happen...
Then they push you to Abby and make you hate her... see her perspective, learn she is just a person who is consumed by hatred, is haunted by her fathers death and also Joels death.l, and finally empathise with her.
The point is to keep you in a loop of hatred and depression
TLOU2, IMO IS a very good game. They just fked up with the character of Joel ... BIG TIME. He was a beloved character . And naughty dog made a couple of other dubious choices.. But I did enjoy the game.
He should let it go ITS A SHIT GAME...with bad, lazy and nonsensical writing ...and most of all the WOKENESS in it killed it.
Its a shame the game of the year awards were rigged because of political bias, otherwise would had
Final Fantasy 7 remake
or
Ghosts of Tsushima
won game of the year in 2020
The reason the story works is because of how beloved he was to the player and not just the characters. It’s a good way to play with the medium, with the Joel having beyond in-game reverence in the real world. You’re suppose to hate it, hate how sudden it was and hate Abby for it, only to realize Abby is arguably more justified, though it’s all very grey and perspective in a harsh world where justification is wholly ethical on a personal level while everything’s gone to shit. Idk, to me it was super interesting of a way to go about it, rather than a generic character-driven drama like the first. Not to take away from the original, it’s insanely well done for what it is but it’s not very original storytelling, just a stellar version of something we’ve seen before.
This game has aged so well for me when I first played I was still shielded from a lot of the real world and I hated that Joel died the way he did but this game transcends gaming it’s the first game I ever played were the characters feel real like they have lived life on earth in a brutal world As I’ve grew more i realized Joel died that way cause he lived that way why does Joel get to live to be old or die well when he’s killed more people then we can count this has become my favorite game ever over time and 4 years later I still want to talk about it and play it again
Personal I thought that the part 2 should have started with Ellie and Joel on one of their infected runs were they're clearing a location, Joel gets seriously injured and can't leave the bed.
Ellie then wants to find out more about her past, what happened at the hospital etc. So you take control of Ellie to do just that while Joel is bedridden and just a voice on a walkie-talkie.
While Ellie is on her adventure to find out about her past she stops at the hospital, finds out what happened and lays into Joel over the walkie-talkie and promises never to return. While still out she hears someone in trouble and checks it out. It's Abby. Ellie helps Abby. After helping Abby they decided to team up and survive together because Abby tell Ellie that she's trying to hunt down the killer of her Dad (no other details are given) Ellie offers to help and Appy agrees.
While Abby and Ellie are searching for Abbys dad killer Joel is periodically trying to get ahold of Ellie but Ellie continues to ignore him. Abby asks who it is and Ellie basically explains that it's the only person that cared for me but also hurt me the most.
While Ellie and Abby are out on the hunt there are game moments we're you take control of Abby, some times saving Ellie or doing different puzzles. Ellie and Abby also have conversations about different things.
At the end of the game after taking on some faction or something Abby has a conversation with Ellie about forgiving her "Dad" because it's the only one you have. Ellie agrees and walks a few steps away from Abby and trys to get ahold of Joel, however the nurse taking care of Joel picks up and Ellie asks if she/he could go get Joel because she wants to talk to him. Right after that the camera prospective switch to Abby because that's the moment she realizes who Ellie's Dad is and that she found the person she was looking for.
Ellie finishs up her conversation tells Abby she's heading back to Jackson. Both Ellie and Abby say goodbye,cand when she's out of range of hearing anything Abby uses her walkie-talkie to let someone know on the opposite end that she found him, she know where Joel is.....and then the credits roll.
The 3rd game would be the revenge story. Doing it this way we actually care about Abby before sh*t hits the fan in the 3rd game. In the 3rd game Joel dies, you play sections as Ellie and sections as Abby etc, etc, etc.
any story telling that would have us caring about abby at all would have been nice
Nah, I prefer what we actually got. None of the fanfiction "right version of tlou2 story" I read over the years sounded at least decent.
Would have been nice but i also enjoyed what we got
I stopped caring about everyone’s opinion on this game. It’s absolutely phenomenal to me and I’ve tried to understand where people see why it’s bad but I just don’t. I enjoyed every second of both games
Same. I think its a masterpiece and have played it a few times through
@@Scat_man72 Mediocre is a better term most of the time.
I thought it was a great game. Would have liked it to be a bit longer. Absolutely loved the conflicting feelings it created and thought it was very clever.
There was nothing clever about it, it had a dogshit story, there was no conflict, fans of the franchise got two beloved characters, one of whom was killed off and the second practically replaced at times by the fuck nugget, that then the game spent a LOT of time manipulating you to like her
@@TheNightman.your opinion is not wrong but neither is the one from the OG comment. They have the right to like the game lol you have the right to hate it
I'm a huge fan of the first game, have played through it probably 20-30 times. I won't likely ever play part 2, but I've seen quite a lot of it streamed. It's obvious to me that the gameplay I liked about the first game is there and bettered, that the graphics are amazing and quite a lot of the writing is well done.
However. It's clear to me the Neil Druckmann has become a bit obsessed with putting social subversion in his games at the expense of the player. I didn't think for a second before TLOU2 was shown that Joel would be making it out of the game alive, so him dying isn't the problem. The way that scene happens though, is extremely poorly done. Worse than that though, the entire end of TLOU1 (in the Firefly hospital) is thrown out to push the idea that what Joel did to save Ellie was bad, in order to build sympathy for Abby. Even Ellie is shitty to Joel for what everyone who played that part of the first game knew was absolutely justified (especially so if you've read the notes throughout the hospital). I feel all of this is lazy writing and intentionally disrespectful to the player, and character, that wasn't even Neil's to ruin.
I know there are people who really like the game who will hate what I've said but I just can't support a company that treats it's own IP and characters that way just to get some weird 'right side of history' points. Druckmann's social media over the years since is also proof of his intentions being subversive and frankly, weird. The multiple remasters and remakes to milk money from people is also not a great look for Naughty Dog. Unfortunately I kind of doubt they'll even make a game that interests me again though I'd love to be wrong on that.
Writers are the creators. If they say there’s more to a characters story, saying it’s not necessary isn’t really your right to say. You can simply not view it, but there’s a reason you did ;)
About the AI shouting random names upon killing an irrevelant grunt npc that not only do you know nothing about and never will but it was, by design, placed there to either die or give you something to do. The point is "you should care and feel X because it had a name" and the answer is no, not even close
This is one of the most blatant, cheapest ways used by the game to emotionally manipulate the player. If you fell for it, you fell for an appeal to emotion argument, commonly used in politics and known as a fallacy for a reason. Hence why no one has come close, because you want to stay away from such tactics
Another TH-camr NakedJakey I think, actually pointed that out, that regardless of how messed up, brutal or needlesly violent you are in the combat, it is never reflected in the actual story.
It's called Ludonarrative Dissonance, where the Gameplay doesn't fit with the story being told, much like Laura Croft in the 2013 Tomb Raider Reboot, having a viceral reaction to killing your first deer, but not when you do it again and if I recall, not even when you kill your first human.
@chandllerburse737 seriously? Don't think I've ever heard that being an issue, but I could have just missed it.
@chandllerburse737 The point still stands, it´s meant to make the npcs feel real, they care someone they knew died. Which at the same time is meant to have an effect on the player, which is also determined by what the game is thematically trying to do, hence its inclusion.
In the Arkham Games, the approach is drastically different, the game is trying to communicate how intimidating Batman can be, especially to criminals. And every time the npcs nervously say they got someone down the real aim is not to make them feel more "real" so you can make some narrative up in your head about how sad it is that I just killed someone they "knew" and how they "cared", just because it had a name. Is to make you feel more threatening as Batman.
@chandllerburse737 And here I thought we could have a meaningful discussion about execution for design, thematic elements....Ehh, I´ll take the deflection I guess
@chandllerburse737 I don´t think misanthropy has anything to do with it. Any story is going to have thematic elements, intention and things that, by design, are there for you to pick up, because if that wasn´t the case, those elements wouldn´t be there in the first place. And we can, through observation, conclude what said story is trying to tell you, and what are the means said story is using.
The fact that somebody else shouts a random name adds nothing within the context of the narrative or the story, just a false feeling that they are more real, but you still have nothing to work with. It would be akin to watching a John Wick movie and, for each single random grunt in his way that gets killed, another random grunt shouts a name, only for this last grunt to be killed as fast as the previous one. But the movie is not trying to trick you into thinking "these were real people, real grunts that cared for eachother and died for nothing at the hands of a merciless killer" which is why it doesn´t happen.
And even if it did happen, and somehow the people began praising it by saying, "man, those grunts felt so real and immersive" the people behind the script and the story would probably think "Man, cannot believe they swallowed it, that was easy"
I think I'd have enjoyed the game more if they had the balls to make you kill Ellie as Abby. I certainly would've enjoyed it more if I had the CHOICE to kill Abby or not. I saw the ending coming right from the start and it disappointed me so much that it was that predictable. I would've been FAR MORE satisfied if I could've put her down. I get that defeats the point, but Ellie already lost Dina and Joel by then so, who cares?
Edit: Don't want a part 3 but I'd take a prequel with more Joel & Tess or a completely different game with all new characters. Set it like 30 years in the future and MAYBE Ellie made it to like 53, or maybe not. Maybe we see her or her grave.
Little offtopic here: what keyboard is Luke using? This thing is so awesome! 😮
People understood the horror of Joel's actions in the first game. Being lectured about it in the second game just felt condescending.
Maybe to you, but narrativepy it made sense.
We as the player know why Joel did what he did.
But Ellie didn't.
No one else close to Joel really knew what happened at the hospital.
It's a dark little secret that Joel withheld from Ellie and everyone else be abuse he knew it would destroy his relationship woth Ellie, and it did.
There is a reason why emphasized Joel's actions from part 1 in part 2. It's essentially the catalyst of Elli's confusion, and anger. And when Abby kills Joel, Ellie realizes she can never have that same relationship with Joel. It was taken from her. So now she doesn't have any closure from her now deceased father figure.
I could go on about why this part of the narrative makes sense, but if you think it feels condescending, then you haven't thought about the "why" long enough.
@@waketp420 the condescending part is that they make you play as Abbie for the rest of the game, trying to make you like her and see her side, as if you didnt already understand. Ya I know Joel's not the perfect moral being, but you put any parent into the spot he's in and there is some understanding. The greyness and complexity of Part 1s ending made it beautiful. In Part 2 they really try to say, no forget all of that, Joel's actions were bad and maybe you shouldnt hate his killer that much because really its just the same cycle of violence, in fact here play as her too so you can reaally get it, as if we didnt know that already.
@@FluffythePersianCat You're missing out on a ton of story beats and themes bro lmfao 😂
@@waketp420no he isnt , the game is just not well written sorry
@@FluffythePersianCat u didnt understand thats why ure raging about playing as abby. Saying that you should support Joel because he's your PC aka part of your tribe is not "greyness"
just little kids who are so invested in the story they dislike it when its not just a pure fan-service plot. That shows how successful the writers are.
I watched pulp fiction for the first time recently (didnt see why people praise it so much) and I got reminded of tlou2 pacing. Comstantly going back and forth and not straight forward.
This game is not for everyone (mature only), that's for sure. I loved it.
I salute N.D. for the courage - and technical execution.
I hope they will give us more.
The last of us 2 is a game where you have to replay it a 2nd time to really put things in perspective. Personally I think it’s a great game!!
TLOU: Part 2 is a masterpiece in story telling, regardless of how you look at it. It clearly took balls to write, which I have mad respect for!
For me, the issue with the game is just Abby's crew. Mel and Owen make me want to put a gun in my mouth... Part 1 gave us some of the best characters in videom game history, Joel, Ellie, Tess, Sam, Henry, Bill etc.
In Part 2 we get Mel & Owen...
Maybe it's just the fact that time has never made much sense to me anyway, but the pacing of TLoU2 has never bothered me. I Don't mind the flashbacks or the perspective switching at all, it all feels cohesive to my particular flavor of neuro-spicy
I still can't believe they canceled factions 2. For me it seems like after the controversy of TLOU 2, a multiplayer that most people love would be a good choice to keep players interested in the world of TLOU.
They just didn’t have the means necessary to keep working on it without sacrificing their single-player experiences, which would never be an option for Naughty Dog. While Factions is loads of fun, they as a company have always been defined by their masterful single-player stories
@@nickhoadley6789 there single player experiences are only remakes and remasters.
@@reid5868 in the same blog post that they announced the cancellation of factions, they talked about how they are currently working on two brand new single-player experiences. The remake and remaster have just been ways to make money and provide for consumers while they work on bigger projects, which literally every major game studio does (ie: Rockstar’s GTA and RDR remasters, the Alan Wake remaster, etc.)
They killed Joel too early, none of Abby's gang was even remotely likable same goes for Abby, Ellie should have killed Abby. These are my opinions.
While I greatly respect the way the game tries to get you to change the way you view a character and go from hating her to understand she’s merely another side of the same coin. I think it would be so much better if you started as Abby, didn’t know Joel or Ellie was gonna be in the game at all, and have to hunt down the smuggler who killed your father + learn who he is before finding out it was Joel and killing him. Then after you switch and play as Ellie. I think it would be great because we’d be rooting for Abby, wanting her to get justice for her father, only to then have the rug pulled from under us and A) be so conflicted about what to feel if you played the first game, having that pre-existing love and connection for Joel and Ellie but also now rooting for Abby and seeing how much her father’s death destroyed her. But B) also then seeing first hand how Abby sends someone down the same path she was sent down, as Ellie goes on the same path for justice. I feel that the overall story of part 2 really is great, just told in the wrong order at points for a video game. While there are the critiques of saying you shouldn’t kill people as a theme then the gameplay being the opposite, that kinda thing happens all the time in other games, such as W3 needing to find Cirilo but getting distracted, cyberpunk being a dying man but having time to do random gigs, Spider-Man having the city being destroyed by a plague but just stopping some people doing a robbery etc etc, I just think to try and bring the game down because of that is a bit weak since so many other games make that same pitfall.
I’m firmly in the “love” camp for this game. And I’m a huge fan of the original and its characters. I’ve never played anything like it. The original game was about love and this game was about hate (and the endless cycle it creates). This idea is punctuated by the death of a main character and the highly controversial decision to force you to play as the “enemy”. While this is unbelievably heartbreaking it’s what pushes the boundaries of story telling to a whole new level. It turns the whole video game hero concept on its head. In most video games you play as the the good guy and you are not given the opportunity to view other perspectives. You kill countless enemies with zero repercussions and and are constantly told you are justified in your actions. Part 2 not only shows multiple perspectives and motivations but also forces the player to take part in the cycle of revenge. It is a grim narrative set in a brutal universe but to me it carries a lot of weight.
Carries a lot of weight indeed. Joel's dead weight right from the start.
I’m with you!! This game had my emotions all over the place and that’s what the devs intended. I love how dark the game is. There’s really no way to happy end in that universe. It’s a brutal world they were living in and the game really reflects that.
@@dukemagusbruh 😂
It's not Joel's death that annoys me in this game. I always expected him to. It's the way he dies and the entire structure of the game that comes after this.
Eventhough, I do respect ND for taking a risk instead of playing it safe.
There was nothing Joel could do in his situation. Absolutely nothing.
That’s the only fitting conclusion for Joel’s character. His arc was completed. It makes much more sense for his death to be the event that sets the story of Part II into motion than it ever would’ve for him to just peacefully pass from old age or saving Ellie in a gunfight. The Last of Us has always been a story about the power that love holds, and the result of Joel’s death is the most evident piece of storytelling for that point that we have ever seen from this series
@@nickhoadley6789 Joel saving ellie in a gun fight saying something like save yourself is what they wanted. A Hollywood approach that dosent fit this games tone that mimicks reality. You can't prepare for death I mean look at how Jesse died.
Love it , my favourite franchise .
Related to what you say about the fact they should have not do part 2 as it was enough with just part 1, I think you can see part 2 as a part of one’s life that is tough and miserable but necessary. Part 3 would be the redemption that wouldn’t be possible without the story of part 2.
Am I the only one that thought the pacing was excellent? This game was brutal and amazing throughout
I agree
The best reaction to TLoU Part 2 is to ignore it, forget it ever existed and move on.
The game Luke is describing around 1:00 is basically Papers, Please and a lot of other indie games. There's a surprising amount of people who enjoy that kind of stuffs.
stuffs?
Yeah, I was just thinking "This is... he's describing Cart Life, and half a dozen other games."
I don't hear these games praised tho.. like ever
Honestly, the same death scene could have been received a million times better if they actually built up Abby to have you care about her BEFORE that scene.
I still wouldn't have liked it, but at least I would have felt torn on the situation. The way it's currently set up made me want to let Abby die at all encounters and actively cheer for her downfall. Like in the fight against Ellie.
Definitely agree. Yet the defenders of the game would tell you that it was the whole point, to make you uncomfortable. To those people I would say that just because it was intentional on the developers part, doesn't mean that it was a good idea to begin with.
yeah but the thing is you can’t get the player to care about abby unless she does something to affect the player in the first place (i.e killing joel). if we started off learning about abby it would’ve been really confusing just playing as a random new character we’ve never seen before
@@rushil9881 Don't suppose you've played Kingdom Hearts 2? In that game we play the first three hours as Roxas, a completely new character. Of course we all were confused about what was happening and why we weren't playing as Sora. But most of us learned to care about Roxas by the time we went back to playing as Sora. This is just one example. So basically it can be done.
I disagree, because I feel like what appeals to me about the game is that I'm presented with a character that I immediately hate from the start of the game, and am then made to walk in her shoes. I feel like that's something that people hate about the game, that she's not made more likable before the action, to make us feel torn when Joel's death happens. The strength of the game for me is that it puts me, as a gamer, in a position I don't want to be in. I completely understand why people have a negative reaction to that. But for myself it's a strength, because it's forcing me to confront something I don't want to process.
Kinda would've defeated the whole purpose of it then....
I was one the people who never saw the leaks, but knew Joel was going to die. There are many complaints I have with the game, however the most serious offender to me is the way the game consistently failed to make me care. I didn't find the need to make things darker a problem, rather the way I could never immerse myself because I could see the story's intention and constant attempt at manipulating me, and in my head I just thought how pretentious it all seemed as the game kept failing to make me feel anything but disappointment.
Well said, I felt the same way, not to mention the pacing of the game felt like a slog with its semi open world and long winded sections without cutscenes broke up what made the first game so visceral and satisfying bouncing between story and gameplay. So when you take away the part of the game that I truly cared about and was immersed in (the story) and give me more gameplay between, it’s ultimately not working. 😢
Same.
@@jjones1032 same
😂
Agreed, just felt so manipulative compared to the first game. How they use animals/pregnant ppl at multiple points comes to mind
I JUST got around to playing part 2 with my girlfriend and let me say, holy hell is this game fantastic. The first game will always hold a special place in my heart but the second one asks bold questions about morality, forces the player to make tough decisions that they may not agree with and in my case changes how I viewed certain characters actions. The last of us is always about asking the players how far they would go to save the ones they love and the second one explodes with questions surrounding revenge, rage, justice and letting go. Acting is fantastic, looks fantastic and plays incredibly well. Easily slides into my top 5 of all time and left me stunned at the end of every chapter
A lot of the media tends to follow similar narrative tropes and tend to air on the safe side, especially if it involves a popular IP that can make a ton of money. While it's not the most unique or groundbreaking story ever, I respect that naughty dog at least tried to take a swing at something like that.
I also really like that the game was emotionally intense. Whether I was angry or sad, the game at least made me feel something. The same cannot be said for most stories in video games, TV, movies, etc.
bruh the writing is like something out of an mtv movie just cause your standards are low doesnt make it worth of fucking game of the year
@@WetcameraincYeah no you're wrong
Well see why most companys go for the safe side? Because of a majority people that can not comprehend such complex story. And yes it is complex, not the entire story itself, more like how the people in it interact and how differen sides are viewed.
@Wetcamerainc you make a better game then... oh wait😂
True last of us fans hate part 2. ND shit on all our favourite characters and replaced them with woke propaganda. The story was pure trash.
The gameplay, voice acting, graphics etc are great, but the story and characters are bad.
1. Abby conveniently finding Joel.
2. Joel standing in the middle of a room of armed strangers, putting himself in the most vulnerable position possible. He may have softened a little, but he’s not dumb, and still regularly goes out into danger.
3. Abby’s crew letting Tommy and Ellie live despite the fact one is Joel’s brother, and the other clearly cares a lot about him and threatened you all.
4. Abby’s crew wearing their WLF patches so they can be identified.
5. Maria picking Ellie and Dina, two inexperienced teenagers to travel across the country to get Tommy, rather than older and more experienced people. Plus Ellie is the most emotionally compromised person in Jackson, making Maria’s decision even more idiotic.
6. Ellie conveniently finding pictures, including names, of all the people she’s looking for.
7. Mel conveniently hiding her belly when Ellie finds her, not to mention neither she or Owen tell Ellie that she’s pregnant when that’s something I think any parent or sane person would do.
8. Abby finding Ellie’s map she conveniently drops that leads Abby right to her.
The story was full of moronic situations, and I personally didn’t like like any of the characters except Owen. And a final note, I don’t wanna play as a killer of a beloved character, let alone for nearly half the game.
@chandllerburse737 What I mean is when arriving in Jackson, she just runs into Joel, without having to do any work to find him. Regardless of if a more intelligent and sensible outcome was planned, the fact is the one the game has is bad.
That’s a negative for those games too, but at least in their case the Uncharted series is a lighthearted Indiana Jones style game. TLOU on the other hand is meant to be a very serious and realistic series. If the choices and situations can’t be taken seriously, why should the players.
@chandllerburse737 You’re not helping TLOU2 at all.
1. All stories have conveniences to a certain degree. Abby knows the town Joel lives in, they’re on the outskirts where Joel and Tommy are part of regular patrols and they bump into each other at the ski lodge. It’s established in a flashback later on that Joel and Tommy regularly go to said ski lodge on their patrols. It is a convenience, but it’s a perfectly acceptable one.
2. Tommy told Abby their names in the ski lodge before Abby suggests going to the house where her crew is held up. Going there was by far their best option for survival considering the circumstances. Seeing as they had saved her and she had helped them fight off numerous waves of infected, there’s no reason for them to suspect her real motives. Even if he was more cautious, it wouldn’t matter anyway because as mentioned before, Abby already knew who he was.
3. Well some of the crew wanted to kill them, but Abby and Owen decided not to and they were in charge. They said they felt killing them would make them as bad as Joel, which I get. Also, If you were part of a massive militia group I don’t see why you would worry about being hunted down by two people. If they were aware how dangerous they are, maybe that would have been different.
4. See above.
5. Maria didn’t pick them, she just knew that she wasn’t going to stop them. They maybe teenagers but they’ve demonstrated that they’re capable of handling themselves considering they can go on patrols. These aren’t teenagers who live in Beverly Hills, they’ve been living their whole lives in a tough, post-apocalyptic world.
6. I’ll give you that, but I don’t think it’s a story wrecking moment.
7. I think in a moment that hectic and emotionally charged it’s perfectly understandable that they’re more focussed on taking out Ellie than focussing on the pregnancy. Also Mel didn’t intentionally hide it from Ellie, she just had her coat done up because it was cold and pissing with rain.
8. Pretty convenient granted, but not egregiously so imo.
@chandllerburse737 And your comments get more and more ridiculous.
@@somanytakennames Doesn’t change the fact the timing is too perfect, with the guy she’s looking for just landing on her lap.
He’s got decades of survival experience, he wouldn’t stand in the middle of the room, leaving him extremely vulnerable. And actually if Joel was cautious, which realistically he would of been, he wouldn’t of been blindsided by Abby and could of reacted. But Neil had to butcher his character to get his revenge story going.
Except they’re already as bad as Joel, if not worse. They are part of the WLF which aren’t a nice group, that have killed innocents. They also traveled across the country and brutally tortured a man to death. Most of them, and Abby definitely considering that cutscene, would know of the relationship between Joel and Ellie, and therefore would understand why he did what he did, even if they disagree with it. Abby and Owen already talk about Jackson and how they are equipped and have a lot of people. And considering who those two people are, especially Tommy, they should fully expect that it wouldn’t be just two people, when those people belong to a well organised group living in a massive city.
Nope, their actions and decisions are hypocritical and moronic.
She is the leader, she is more than capable of containing Ellie like Tommy asked her to do. Instead she just lets her go, the most emotionally compromised person in the town. What makes her think Ellie of all people would find Tommy, and then say “ok now let’s go back home” rather than join him on the revenge mission. It’s ridiculous. Sending better and more experienced men who aren’t messed up emotionally is the sensible choice.
Course not, but it doesn’t do the story any favors when crucial information like that just falls into your hands so easily.
How is it? She has a gun pointing at them. Trying to take her on instead of saying something that could save your life or even give her pause for you to act, is stupid. It’s precisely why they both died. And it’s only raining in some parts of their location, as where they are standing it’s perfectly dry.
No, but once again it’s all too neatly wrapped in a bow. If she found her through tracking, or making intelligent deductions it could make the whole thing fine.
The issue with Joel's Death is not that Abbey killed him or even that he was tortured in it. It's the fact THERE IS NO WAY Joel would EVER have let down his guard and dropped his weapon when outnumbered by Abbey and her crew. The death does not feel earned; it instead feels like the only reason Joel dies is because the writers decided he needed to die.
There are any number of ways the death of Joel could have played out that would have made sense. Instead of choosing any of them, we get this garbage scene just to be shocked and provide the false narrative for the rest of the game.
Ironically, he got "fridged" as the feminist would call it when done to a female character.
Joel quite simply did not let his guard down. You could not be anymore wrong about that. For a start, Joel did very little wrong and everything you could argue he did wrong was in line with the better version of himself than the was trying to be. Tommy told Abby their names before they had any reason to suspect she had a group of heavily armed friends nearby. The only thing Joel and Tommy did wrong debatably was telling only Abby their names and rescuing her in the first place. They rescue her because they’re better people now and they tell her their names because she could’ve been a new member to Jackson, once saved. Apart from that Joel and Tommy did nothing else wrong and at every point try to either get away from the group or negotiate with them.
This doesn’t make any sense. Joel lived in Jackson for a number of years, and recruited many stray people and groups during that time, presumably without issue. He had literally no reason to believe that this group was looking for him specifically.
You guys make up a bunch of stuff about Joel in your head and then get mad.
Joel got melted down with years of living with a family and with familiar comforts. Coming from someone who was a hardened asshole, once you have a family, that shit softens you up.
Dunkey has a good point on this.
He said something like, Joel is not a psychopath you meet at the start of the game anymore, he grows to care for Ellie and in fact lets his guard down, in more ways than one.
Pre-Watch comment: So much TLOU2 discussion is led by people who havent played it or heavily misrepresent it after watching surface level TH-cam analysis videos
(NakeyJakey). With the Remastered coming out, at least people who hate this game can try it for the first time.
My biggest gripe with the game was that they tried to retroactively make the fireflies the good guys favction to make Joels action seem as evil as possible, when in reality there are no good factions in this setting. The Fireflies of TLOU 1 are like the WLF in TLOU 2, just that one is the "science"-faction and the other is the "military"-faction. You have a few good people in it, but alot of them (especially at the top) are assholes.
First remember that the Fireflies had a deal with Joel and Tess to bring Ellie to Boston for weapons. A deal they never planned to abide by.
Second the first thing one of their "Soldiers" did after finding Joel trying to do CPR on Ellie is hitting him over the head with his rifle.
Third from the voice logs especially from Marleen we know, that they left her no choice but to accept that they kill Ellie for the brain probes. They didn´t care for either Ellie or any other of their former "patients". They also planned to kill Joel, and it was Marlene, that would have let him go, but we don´t know what orders the soldier had who was with Joel afterwards.
And from what we know from the Word of TLOU, most of it has turned to shit so even if they would have found the cure, there would have been no practical way to give it to all of what´s left of humanity.
But point 1 and 2 are enough to reason in universe for Joel to not trust them with Ellie, because they didn´t gave him any reason to.
On a meta level everything in the first game for me pointed to that they would have used the cure as a means to gain more power, like Immortan Joe in Fury Road used water to keep control over his territory.
But then again, I was probabely one of a few couple of people who were not really hyped after the anouncement of a sequel, because I found that TLOU never needed one because it had the perfect ending, like I don´t need a sequel to FFXVI.
And to be hones TLOU 2 didn´t change MY mind.
All they did was get people to look at the other side. That things aren't good and evil in real life
If u really think the game tried to say “Joel was evil” then you missed the point.
That's one thing I've seen a lot of people forget in regards to Joel killing the Fireflies in the hospital. They were escorting him away from the hospital to kill him instead of giving him the weapons as originally agreed.
@@anthonyernst999 No they just wrote a bunch of bullshit
@@TheNightman. Believe what you want
My main issue is still that everything felt so forced. Joel lets his guard down so easily to get brutally murdered. Ellie kills dogs, pregnant women, becomes absolutely brutal, full of rage, combined with terrible pacing gameplay. Abby plays with dogs, cares for her friends, starts for no reason to protect two random kids which seems totally out of character for her, combined with better pacing and the more interesting gameplay sections. Then there are the countless flashbacks to give us that satisfying feeling of playing as Ellie and Joel again, even though they wanted to kill Joel off for storytelling purposes. If the writers wanted to make the protagonist/antagonist discussion less black and white, make sure to not portray the characters in black and white. Show that Abby and Ellie both can be remorseful, caring and forgiving, but at the same time also absolutely brutal, toxic and destructive.
Ellie was upset when she found out Mel was pregnant. Abby was happy when Dina was pregnant knowing she was killing both.
This was a tangent meant to seem sequential.
My biggest issues were the pacing, having the split in the middle which is only surprising the first time if you weren't spoiled, and lack of agency especially with the quick time events.
Joel can make mistakes, but the same thing could have happened with him not making mistakes if she saw his face. The game could have had moments with Ellie then switched to Abby much earlier hunting her father's killer. You don't realize until later that it's Joel. The audience still hates Abby, but understands her and essentially lead to the outcome. Switching back and forth earlier could have helped the pacing moving characters to where they needed to be then travel areas with very little around. The game is amazing, but the story and structure needed more of a collaborative effort than a single voice.
"Joel lets his guard down so easily to get brutally murdered."
I've always seen this as a crutch people use to hate what happened to him, but it makes sense within the story. Joel in part 1 is a grizzled smuggler in a containment zone where they literally hang you for your perceived crimes. Jackson isn't that, he grew soft and comfortable since the end of part 1. He's around kids and parents, not killers. And yes, he might think someone could be hunting him for what he did to the Fireflies, but what are the chances this random group is ex Fireflies and they are looking for and found the only supposed Joel left in the world?
@@alexs1640Literally like the first scene in tlou 2 confirms how joel is still as careful as ever and its bad writing to not show it if that was the case.
I don't really agree with the argument that the game is only bleak and miserable, there is actually a lot of lightness, beauty and hope scattered throughout. Granted, several of those moments come in flashbacks, but it's not exclusive to them, e.g. the early Seattle stuff with Dina or certain parts with Lev. The birthday flashback is possibly the most beautiful scene ever created in a video game and the final flashback, as bittersweet as it is, is also stunning.
All in all, the game is going to give you a lot conflicting emotions, if you're open to it. If that's not what you're looking for, fair enough, it's probably not going to be for you. But you know, that's okay, not everything has to be for everyone.
One criticism I do agree with is the pacing. There's no question the game drags in certain areas. How much of a negative that is, is going to be different for everyone. For me it doesn't actively harm the game, I don't love it any less because of it. But it's definitely there and I get why it's a much bigger issue for others.
its is bleak, flashbacks are exactly that, meaningless back padding to the bleak and miserable, that's their point as a palette cleanser but that's the issue
@@marcusclark1339 Those flashbacks are NOT meaningless lmfao. They give extremely important context to the narrative and at regular intervals so that the story slowly begins to unfold before you. For instance, the Joel & Ellie museum flashback is not, on its own, very impactful. What makes it impactful is that we already know Joel is gone, so we appreciate every tiny moment we have with him, even if it's just a memory. That flashback wouldn't carry the same emotional weight had we not experienced Joel's death prior.
@@TheOutsider69 The museum is important because its a direct lead in to their confrontation in the next flashback at the hotel. Ellie needed to see the firefly logo with LIARS underneath because it plants the seed we see blossom when Ellie gets Joel to tell her to truth after she goes through the hospital.
Flashbacks are overuse
Literally the ones of Abby are ok because we never know her
BUT ELLIE lmaoo
Not interested in the remaster . I think just playing the game once, was more than enough. I’m curious to see how season two of the show is gonna turn out to be. Especially with Kaitlyn Dever, portraying Abby
Remaster*
Thanks thats what I meant
I think you actually need to play it multiple times to really grasp the story. I don’t believe it’s a good thing that multiple playthroughs are necessary, but that’s still the case.
They killed Joel and introduced a meme of a character with Abby. Narrative story telling is top tier. Gameplay, top tier. The writing is the problem with this game. Abby's arms are ridiculous and shes laughably jacked 😂. I understand what they were trying to do with the narrative, it's just not what anyone wanted. Players fell in love with Joel and Ellie. People have nothing but disdain and contempt for Abby and the creators wanted you to love her. The narrative was trying to be creative and set up a story where they make you feel for someone thrpugjout the narrative that they make you hate in the beginning. Unfortunately the story telling didnt work. That disconnect between creator and player bred the negativity.
TLOU-2 failed in one major way: the narrative and pacing was shit. If Abby's storyline was first, fewer people would have gotten mad at Joel's death and actually would have felt conflicted since at that point they would have cared for Abby. But no, they wanted to "subvert expectations" and were shocked to find that people fucking hated that. This is what happens when a beloved character is unceremoniously murdered by an unpleasant newcomer and the writers try their absolute hardest to make you like them after the fact. It feels forced and artificial. Switching the narrative around may not have even helped, but by killing Joel in the first HOUR of the game they set impossible expectations that they just couldn't realistically meet and that's on them.
And then there's Ellie's sections. This shit was just ridiculous. Nothing about the despicable acts that Ellie did made me feel "uncomfortable". They just made me feel irritated. You can't have me shoot a guy in the head, Ellie then calls him a fucker, but you turn around and say "oh look at the bad-evil thing you did!" by having someone yell the name of the guy I just murdered. Hearing people yell out the name of a dog that you force me to kill to progress doesn't make me feel anything either. Since much like the aforementioned fucker, you literally made me do it. The only way not to do bad things would be to turn the damn game off. Which in hindsight, I probably should have. "Evil" acts have no weight to them when the player is forced to do them.
Even with the Abby/Ellie stuff set aside, the story itself just kinda fails on a basic level thanks to the limp-wristed cop-out of an ending Bad Puppy decided to go with. This is what happens when a story about right and wrong is penned by people who believe they're never wrong. I would have respected this game more if at the end, they allow the player to make the choice on whether to kill Abby. That would have been pretty wild and actually had subverted my expectations. But like everything else in this game, Disobedient Canine already made that choice for you. I'm starting to think that they should probably make movies, instead of unnecessary (and unwanted) sequels to already great games.
If it’s Abby’s story first (which no doubt maybe the situation for early drafts), it would defeat the whole purpose of the story.
Change it it from "the narrative is shit" to "I didn't like the direction ND went" and you would actually have a valid comment.
It didn't fail in any way
I love Part 2. Honestly, there are some pacing issues but it's still an amazing game.
I’m right with you ! And the gameplay is more fun. You get a lot more stealth options to play with and the dodging mechanic was an excellent addition. Also appreciated the expansion of exploration and the verticality of the levels
@MR.__G I love that you can play completely differently with each playthrough. Stealth through and avoid as much as you can, be John Wick and kill all with no Stealth, be up close and personal, set up traps and lure people, the list goes on. My favourite is John Wicking my way through with a bit of stealth, hiding under trucks and taking out ankles before finishing them off 😄
To me Part 2 is a rare AAA game where it did not play it safe and took risks. In doing that though, made its flaws more apparent. Still it’s a game that does more right than wrong, and when it hits, it hits like no other game I’ve ever played. It’s a great game and very memorable for all the right and wrong reasons.
I agree, although I much prefer the story of the 1st game I give huge credits for the writers of part 2 for atleast making a story that takes risks and doesn't follow the usual Hollywood play it safe type BS
Abby may not be trans "now" because the backlash was so heavy but you cant blame people for believing that she is with those hulk hogan arms and the massive amount of masculine energy that she puts out. If it wasnt supposed to be a post apocalyptic wasteland where hormone treatments are non existent and the average womans build is nothing like abby, it seems to me that if the "abby is trans" narrative would have continued and probably won awards for being so progressive if it hadnt caused so much backlash.
So women can't be masculine? Especially in a post apocalyptic world where there is a higher emphasis on physical strength?
Narrative wise, it’s not even like part 2 is super original in the sense where we focus on the antagonist for a major amount of time. I like to compare it to things like Captain America: Civil War with cap and tony, Revenge Of The Sith with Anakin and Obi Wan, or even MGS where you even play as the villain. Stories can work where you understand the antagonists perspective, but it needs to be earned. I feel like if Part 2’s narrative was just tweaked slightly and rearranged , it could have gone from polarizing to maybe even universally loved.
Honestly just rearrange some of the chapters or even making two different campaigns like how Resident Evil games did before would have made the narrative way better imo.
I think the reception would have been much better if the game started out on that flashback of Abby looking for her dad at that zoo. The game doesn’t give you enough time to like Abby as a character before she does the most shocking and polarizing thing possible.
The problem is that the narrative is separated as if it were two separate campaigns, punctuated just before the finale. It's as if you have Obi-wan's storyline, so that just before he lands on Mustafar, there's a cut and Anakin's storyline.
Or like if Tony had the first half of the movie and then Cap the second half.
Well, and somehow I've never heard that Abby's half is particularly praised.
Why is ROS there? The story fails because Anakin actions there are utterly moronic. Like have you actually watched it?
@@rali5644I think the better question is have YOU watched ROTS? Clearly you haven't if you can't see why a former SLAVE who became a Jedi only to free his mother, and then have the Jedi FAIL to free her leading to her death, and THEN have them fail to do the same for his wife, might just hold a bit of a grudge against them. Lmao
The Last of Us Part 2 is a flawed masterpiece. The only thing I could possibly say negative about it is the structure which is jarring. Other than that, I believe it is one of the more challenging pieces of storytelling I’ve ever consumed. Challenging doesn’t always mean good, but I can’t deny, it’s also made me feel feelings I’ve never experienced before playing a game. There’s something to take away from that. And I take it positively
I think the fact its jarring is what makes it so compelling. That is precisely what the developers intended. SOO many people were against Abby and rightfully so but it means that this is exactly what the developers were going for when paired with the theme of the game.
@@ThisMrMisterI agree. Whether someone sees it as a negative or not, Naughty Dog did everything with thought in it. Everything is in service of either the characters, the story, and its themes. I can’t help but commend them for being so ballsy.
@@ThisMrMister The developers wanted you to love fuck nugget, instead the fans revolted and it showed
Completely agreed@@punkrocker4life9674
I don't think the story is particularly well done at all. It smacks you over the head repeatedly about its themes. Nothing more so than killing a pack of dogs and then playing with them after switching characters. Video game writing is a joke, these people catch lightning in a bottle then spend their entire careers trying to replicate it. That doesn't mean you have to commend everything after the first game as a masterpiece. I learned my lesson with that with Hideo Kojima.
TLOU2 is significantly better than the first game.
Absolutely, I find TLOU2 struggles with subtlety a lot, especially in the way they try to make the story of Abby and her group mirror Joel and Ellie's in order to get you to sympathize with them (the pregnancy, the museum/aquarium flashbacks, Lev, and the mirrored dialogue moments). In TLOU, the characters feel like real people having real interactions with each other; in TLOU2, the characters often almost feel like they're held hostage by the storyteller, and that substantially detracts from the experience for me.
@@kevinjohnanand Gameplay wise sure. I watch a lot of movies and think I have a good sense of plot and theming. In this game both are cheeks. It's like a Tumblr fanfiction.
Telling a story in a video game and telling a story in a movie are 2 completely different things that are structured completely differently. In a video game YOU are the character you're playing as them there is a different kind of emotional attachment there. something you wouldn't experience in a movie not to mention how long video games are when you play for a very long time your attention span is likely to drop both of those reasons can lead to the story needing to hit you over the head sometimes comparing it to a 2 hour experience isn't really fair lmao. Also not sure what you mean with your lightning in a bottle comment the story of the second game is very different to that of the first game they are trying to replicate success yes but everyone is trying to make something successful if they made completely different franchise would they still be trying to replicate lightning in a bottle? No so why are they with tlou
@@zeyonaut To borrow an infamous phrase, TLOU2 has all the subtlety of a reversing dump truck without any tires on. It's particularly jarring as I thought Red Dead Redemption 2 did the 'cycle of revenge' theme a lot better just a couple of years beforehand. And that wasn't even the main theme of that game!
It's so heavy handed with its themes that you can't help but roll your eyes at a lot of the story beats as they unfold. Abby also has a father and they both save a zebra. She totally would have sacrificed herself if she was immune. Oh, her father figure also dies. She's a piece of shit in a brutal faction that is killing other people. Oh, she finds and saves a group of kids and ends up changing for the better. Lev is Abby's Ellie and Abby is Lev's Joel. Two sides of the same coin. We have come full circle from the first game. Which is why Abby's section is the strongest part of the game because it follows the rough template of the first game.
It just ends up feeling bloated and over stays its welcome. It suffers from the whole sequel has to be bigger than the first game thing. It messes with the pacing and has too many characters that it wants you to care about in a short amount of time because of the character switches.
If anything the HBO series will probably make better work of the story it wanted to tell. I feel like it would work better as a season of TV than it does as a video game.
Playing as Abby is more fun and she has better setpeices and she can kill things with one punch.
"Abby also has a father" is such a hilarious statement. What were you even trying to say with that
100% agree. The game is extremely unsubtle and heavy handed, which is fine. Not every story needs to be nuanced and complex. I just wish the fans would accept this about the TLOU2 instead of pretending it's some incredibly nuanced, deep piece of high art.
The last part of your essay here is a bit concerning. The first TLOU takes roughly 15-17 hours to complete, adding on an extra 2 hours for the left behind dlc. The first season on HBO sped through the story in 9, 1 hour episodes, 1 being the dlc’s story. So they basically told the story in half time. Oh, and 1 episode was totally dedicated to bill and franks story instead of Joel, Ellie and Bill. So if that’s any indication, I’d dare say that the show isn’t gonna do any justice for the second games story either. Btw, I loved the show. None of what I just said is necessarily complaining about the show. Just saying that it was an awfully fast season. My only real complaint is that I wish they’d done more episodes and given more time for the ending at the firefly hospital.
@@ariel-y-e-m Both Abby and Ellie have daddy issues. Both share the same pain of that particular loss. Both are out there trying to find closure and it's disguised as revenge. Like, c'mon. The game isn't exactly subtle when it comes to all of that stuff. The game goes out of its way to tell you that not everything is as it seems and that the actions of characters you love have consequences. The us part of the last of us, you know? It wants to show you how fucked up things are from other perspectives of people trying to survive. It's why they gave the enemies names this time around. Trying to go the non black and white route. Which kind of fails. Especially in the Santa Barbara section.
I liked begrudgingly playing as Abby, only to have my viewpoint expanded by explaining why. And later found myself enjoying her as a character and her resolve, which magnificently matched Ellie's resolve. Eye for an eye. Dad for a dad. I understand people wanted feel good moments. I, however, liked tlou2. I never once found myself debating not playing the game.
W take
Fully agree screw these crybaby’s who are to immature to see both perspectives
@@Mikey.p257 I'm a crybaby for not wanting to drop $70 on a game with an awful narrative that disinterests me? Okay.
@@jordanthompson8268 No you're a cry baby for coming to that opinion without playing it lol, no actual experience means you're just a giving in to what everyone else says cos you like being part of the tribe
@@XxParadoxGameplaysxX When the game first came out I watched a playthrough with no commentary, you know, something that's been on this platform for years. I've seen the game's entire story from front to back several times. It's what has informed my decision not to ever purchase the game.
The most disapointing game of all time is re released with no justification. You cant fix the story or change the core game no matter how many modes you add to it.
Talking about misleading this title was the most misleading title 🤮
I think that while The Last of Us: Part II had a good idea for a story, the execution was so monumentally poor that it comes across as very disingenuous and very hostile to people that weren't connecting to the hemes. The whole transition to Abby at the climax of Ellie's story was so jarring and completely removes the players from the emotional beat. Not only that but the writers are telling you revenge is bad throughout the whole story but for some reason they justify Abby's revenge. I don't remember Abby ever feeling remorse over killing Joel, all she really shows is reluctance to killing Ellie.
My idea for how this story should play out is tell both Abby and Ellie's story at the same time, breaking everything into chapters and alternating playing both characters. Abby's storyline begins with her planning to kill Joel and ending with her finally committing the act of killing Joel. Ellie's storyline begins with her trying to find Abby and ending with her catching up to her. This reserves the emotional beats at the end of their respective storylines and the whole theme of revenge being bad would be that much more effective because Joel's death and retribution would be back to back.
Throughout their storylines, each character would show their uncertainty, Abby with following through with killing Joel and Ellie grappling with how far she is going to get revenge. It preserves the theme so much more.
But the story we got was so broken and disjointed that the interesting story was so hidden behind so many nonsensical story points and confusing structure.
The second game is better than the first one
My opinion on the whole message vs fun debate is pretty simple, great games can do both. Disco Elysium, Deus Ex, Silent Hill, BioShock, all great games that both were fun to play and had strong messages. I find it disappointing some developers believe the two things are mutually exclusive.
They decided to switch the main character with the daughter of some random NPC you kill in the first game. That’s not good writing and Abby is way too muscular wtf is that about it’s not realistic at all
No idea what the point of this video is. The reasons many hate the game, especially the story, are well known and there's no convincing them that they are wrong when it comes to their issues with Naughty Dog's narrative decisions.
This game has nothing to prove to anyone man i dont get what youre trying to say.
I really don’t like this argument that, “they should have never made it”. You can live in that universe, it’s called not engaging with the game. But if you have a critique, make it. Don’t cower behind this desire for it to just go away. It adds absolutely nothing to any discourse. It can’t.
TLOU2 is supposed to be dark and gritty , definitely not an upbeat good time. There's an M on the box for a reason. You play for the story, the quality, the gameplay, the spectacle, and those things are leagues above the rest of the industry.
I absolutely want a part 3. What we need is more developers like naughty Dog to make games for casual gamers
It's not dark and gritty, it's a hilarious horribly written garbage that could have been written by an edgy 13 year old in a basement.
😂
@@ash8244 Must be why it's one of the highest decorated games in existence right? You sound more like a jealous fanboy than didn't even get to experience it, much less understand it. It's the most emotional game I've ever played. I'd dare to argue it's the most emotional game ANYONE has ever played. It's SUPPOSED to make you feel uncomfortable. That's what casuals don't understand.
@@B-U-T-C-H-E-Rit isnt but sure buddy , check up on your stats
@@RonhozZ It's among the highest decorated video games out there. Luke even makes mention of that fact in this video
I believe naughty dog achieved what they wanted they made players literally hate Abby I believe this game will still be talked about 10 from now like the original was
Apart from rare videos like this, no one talks about tlou 2 anymore. It was shit, it's getting forgotten.
It won’t be it will either be talking in positive way or negative it’s controversial very few things in media do you actually share a feeling of hatred for a character this did and Game Of thrones did as well
nah it will always be reviled while the first game will be beloved.
lol definitely not. It is a dumb story. That's why anyone would talk about it imo.
@@txup92g33 what about it was dumb
TLOU2 isn't a bad game because it's not an escape from reality, it's just not the right game for people that don't like those kinds of games. I also agree with your pacing critiques. Thanks for the fair assessment.
I love the gameplay ( mostly the combat parts), the animations and environments. Story definitely let me down but I don’t hate it as much anymore honestly. Its so damn fun to kill people in this game its so strange. I love the combat and the animations more than anything.
The combat is far and away the game's greatest strength. Especially the combat vs humans w dogs
Agreed. The combat and the new enemies were amazing. The story was Ok. It wasn't Shakespeare and it didn't have to be. It's just a video game.
Well they went from a decent story in the first game with exceptional character development. To a teenage drama which alienated half of the fan base. This is why you got people who love and people who hate it.
When you smash a fucking battle axe into the body of a living breathing human being, the game does a tremendous job of conveying the weight, rage and gravitas of that act. Or when u ram a dirty rusty shiv into your victims neck it feels so visceral and well "real" in TLOU II. Like yeah this is steel cutting through flesh making a person bleed out. Or that steel pipe I pummel people with is breaking all of the bones in their face. How the blows connect and the animations are flawless plus how the camera shake underlines the weight of the action it's so amazingly satisfying and yet terrifying.
Nooo :( that's wrong!! The whole point of tlous2 is violence is bad and you're terrible for liking those things
(Or so Neil hoped)
They could have wrote off joel without killing him Abby could have seriously injured him to the point he is useless in a fight, anyway I think if they had let the players play as Abby first up to the joel encounter then you play as Ellie and you stay as Ellie after Joel's death now you have a more enjoyable plot to at least playthrough
Honestly when the first game happened I called bulshit that he just walked away from all of that scot-free. So I kind of felt Justified when he got killed in such a way during part 2. Also makes me think about how in life sometimes people go out not how they want to go out but rather in almost a cheated way. That's just life and I was actually impressed that they did it the way they did
I wasnt surprised Joel got killed he did too much to not have that outcome despite his reason for doing so either however a part of me love to think about if joel survived the encounter but waa changed in a permanent way seeing Ellie being driven by revenge and getting lost in that is a punishment in itself
The story wouldn’t work if Joel survived. There is no chance Abby would have left Wyoming with him still alive, there’s no chance Ellie would’ve gone after her if he was still alive, and there’s no chance the player would’ve saw red enough if he was alive still. Joel’s death is literally the only way this whole story could get put into motion. It had to happen
@@nickhoadley6789 the story could still work Abby is driven by revenge she could very easily be satisfied if she gave joel brain damage or crippled him even if she didnt kill him. She hates what Joel has done even if she didnt succeed in killing him the fact that joel will never be able to defend himself in a zombie apocolypse is a fate worse than death. The thing is that they were other ways Naughty dog could have wrote off Joel as a character I know killing off a character is always the most popular solution but sometimes it might not be the right choice when it comes to a story that is about hate and how that changes you. Ellie would have still wanted to go after Abby after she damn near beat Joel to death and made her watch, the events of the game still happen but this time instead of ellie seeing joel when she lets Abby go she looks at lev while she is strangling Abby and sees herself in him when Abby beat Joel and she lets her go realizing if she continues this cycle Lev could comeback and do the same to her and do it in front of JJ
@@theoutsiderjess1869 this just isn’t true though. Joel literally had to die for this story to work. Whether or not you think killing him was a good idea is up to each player, but it’s necessary for the story. There was no chance in hell Abby would’ve let Joel live. She was so blinded by her hate towards him that it consumed her life. She wasn’t gonna have him in her hands after so many years of pain and just decide to let him go because he was hurt enough
My favorite game of all time. I'm waiting for the stupidly named remaster AKA actual director's cut to do my 5th playthrough
AMEN BROTHER
Dumb story, great gameplay. A shame if you will. Like seriously, why would Joel and Tommy help a stranger and tell them their full names. That alone helped create the dumbest death in the history of video games. They couldn't even let Joel last over 3 hours into the game. What an absolute fail by Naughty Dog. (I beat TLOU 1 many times)