ไม่สามารถเล่นวิดีโอนี้
ขออภัยในความไม่สะดวก
How Did ZF Do This? Super Compact, 90Nm Motor
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 3 ก.ค. 2024
- ZF release 90NM, 600w tiny compact 2025 emtb motor
ETHICS, DISCLAIMER and TRANSPARENCY: ZF hired me to present the new motor and test it at Eurobike, showcase the brand and introduce to ZF to my audience, and to produce a video for on my TH-cam channel, and is such labelled as a paid partnership on TH-cam.
Surprising that ZF, the best gear company in the world, didnt come out with an integrated gear system like the Pinion
Not yet...
That was the comment I came here to make.
Something must be in the pipeline
@@robertocalvo934 maybe they know it is dead end
That will be 2.0. They are so far ahead of the competition, they can milk it for a while before pulling out the built in gears / tranny.
Outstanding work. And can you imagine how good their motor gearbox unit would be?
The pace of development is just incredible.
I have a 6-speed ZF automatic transmission in my 2007 3-liter 6 cyllinder diesel BMW, it's currently at 280.000 miles. Good stuff
Impressive😅
280,000 miles - very cool. I was impressed with the ZF transmission in my 3 series as well.
Not just cars- I grew up driving several (farm) tractors with ZF powershift boxes or diffs/axle assemblies etc. Solid stuff.
Bro!! E60?
@@marioambrozi5041 Almost, E61 LCI
EMTB are heading in an amazing direction
Soon it will cost more to by an EMTB than a house. I can't wait.
@@MusicByJCI dont think so. Competition means lower prices and better products in the long run. So its good for us if more and more companies develop their drive trains and concepts.
@@MusicByJC That's not how it works. They are getting cheaper. You don't have to buy the latest and greatest.
Hey fellow RC dude
@@MusicByJCI too am looking forward to the price of houses coming down.
Please do a follow-up covering:
1. Noise under load comparison vs Bosch
2. How natural it feels in a dynamic-assistance mode (both on rough/rooty terrain and also on very technical terrain where overrun kicks in)
3. Range comparison
4. Resistance with the system turned off
As an owner of a bike with a Bosch Performance CX motor, I never use Turbo mode and use EMTB mode instead as I prefer a natural-feeling system with progressive assistance. Your demos showing the bike kicking forward are a negative that I want to avoid on the trails so hopefully they have something similar to Bosch EMTB mode.
Best comment. Emtb mode is wonderful in Bosch motors
@@Yunam.sisandbro the difference in motor weight is pretty much meaningless compared to the overall weight of the bike and rider. Even the choice of tires can make a larger impact on the weight. Most reviewers are raving about the motors with built-in gearbox even though those are heavier.
While I like lighter full-power bikes, I don't particularly care where the weight savings come from. I also like less chunky, sleeker-looking EMTBs and a smaller motor helps with that but I don't care about the weight of the motor.
@@dansadventures5514 One of the problems is the weight of the battery. The question is what you want: full power all the time or support. With a 900 Wh battery you can't build a light bike. eGravel bikes can go as low as 13kg with less punch and 200Wh. But that's enough for fit bikers when you want support when/if you need it and not all the time.
Yeah, the battery is a big part of it. I've done 60km and 5,000 feet of climbing on backcountry mountain trails with a 625 Wh battery (mostly on EMTB mode) so 900 Wh is overkill. I would choose a lighter full-power bike with 500 Wh and an extender for the epic days if a brand provided that option.
ZF, it looks like a ground breaking product! Would you please bring an integrated gear motor as well?
The industry should start to make a standardized mount
Not likely because there is no common form factor.
@@svenweihusen57well, the industry needs to standardize. Wink
@@svenweihusen57 That's exactly what he's saying. Hopefully the industry gets to the point where there aren't so many proprietary e-bike parts.
@@bradley3549 Well, but if there had been a standard it would have looked like the standard Bosch motor. So these new ones would break the standard aka you will not see new form factors.
Standards are nice but they are also a problem for innovation. And in an industry where you can't agree on the diameter of of saddle tube or a bottom bracket I don't see any chance of standards.
btw: the automobile industry has nearly no standards too. Just check out how many types of wipers are on the market.
@@svenweihusen57 There is a lot more part interchangeability in the bike world than the automotive world. Even if nothing is truly standard, we at least have quite a few choices and upgrade paths for most components because there are enough pseudo-standards.
With ebikes though, you can't even upgrade physically compatible motors easily within the same model line and brand of bike most of the time.
That really needs to change with some yet-to-be determined industry agreement that allows more flexibility and upgradeability.
If I were Bosch, Shimano, Spesh etc I would be VERY worried! Life time warranty is a massive on its own.
Lifetime Warranty means diddly squat! Unless someone says every component is covered for repair or replacement for life, then it would mean something, I'll bet there is absolutely loads of small print in their warranty because the Big print says what it gives, but the small print takes it all away.
@@1t_wasnt_me Do you know anything about thier gearboxes? Known for being the best you can get, installed on everything from road cars to powerboats. These guys know what they are doing, I would trust thier warranry wording over anything in the current MTB market.
I like Rob's soundtrack choices for an intro
Since ZF is a company that makes high performance automotive transmissions, I'm surprised they didn't go with an integrated gearbox unit. They would of had an upper hand on the Pinion MGU.
I’m sure it’s in the works.
The unit is too big with integrated shifting, it greatly reduces bike design, which negates the whole concept of this small motor!
Nothing that’s come out over the past two years has looked like next gen ebike tech…until now! This is the motor I’ve been waiting for! Please please tell them to make the controls minimal! They’ve got a killer product but it looks like a massive controller on the bars!
Rob, you have become Mr EMTB. Great review.
as someone who drove sportscars for 20 years I hope to be able to buy this motor system and continue enjoying ZF parts in a different hobby
hopefully not only available on 10'000 bikes >
Dude you are freaking me out dropping all this new tech, keep it coming!
Way better than all the other videos from german guys! Really useful information, thx!
Wow, to lift up the front wheel like that without even trying anything, I think this 90nm motor is actually more powerful than 120nm ones.
You had me at sealed oil bath guaranteed for the lifetime of the system. This is the motor I'm most keen to try of all.
As interesting as the current and new motor technology is, the one aspect that is never mentioned about ebike motors is the mechanical drag over the assistance cut off. It would be great if this was mentioned in the reviews as well as the other aspects of the motor system!
I luckily only had half a mile to go without assistance (6500ft of ascent on a 500wh battery was optimistic lol) but it was slightly uphill and oof I would not do much more than that it was an older Bosch model (rental) it was bad enough walking next to the bike seemed almost a better option
@@fredEVOIX sounds like you also know the pain of a bosch gen 2/3 drive unit!!
i believe browse x specialized motor was the best on that, nearly didnt feel the motor when it was off
I agree. I was somewhat annoyed by my Gen2 Bosch being pretty much unusable unpowered. I initially thought I would get away with it being off on the flat trails to eek out more range on the climbs but nah its a right slog. Similarly when the assistance cuts off when at speed in the ups and downs you can really feel it and have to put extra work in to keep the momentum going.
They did mention the integrated clutch. That should do it.
Nice one Rob, best ZF motor review I've seen over the past few days. Exciting times ahead
Really good approach to the motor design and the way it mounts. You can swop the motor out for a newer model if they stick with the same dimensions!
That's pretty incredible. And I thought the DJI motor was innovative!
I was thinking that too but what DJI is, it is a complete package system and not just a small strong motor. The ZF motor is more impressive for sure but what about the other stuff...
@@DaBinCheI agree. The motor looks fantastic but the controls lackluster. ZF needs to copy DJIs controls with an integrated touchscreen solution that gives useful data.
I have a 10 year old BMW 530d with 150,000 miles auto ZF gearbox using similar engineering to this new motor...big auto manufacturer with this much knowledge and background engineering will transform ebike technology and it will work and be reliable like my car 💪🤛
ONGosh!😮 Amazing thought & innovation baked into this system! I googled strain wave gear and got educated on it. Brilliant!👌1950’s tech fueling modern innovation!
Well that Was enough for me to stop thinking about replacing my 2 year old Orbea Rise with a newer Fazua system. I love the look of this motor. I’ll wait a season or two now to see how this pans out on new bikes.
Lifetime warranty on the motor. That's a win for the consumer.
Give me hope they are not made out of cheese like most of the others.
When car people I know hear zf, they think quality. Over time they have built very good products.
ZF if it's the same company does pretty stout car transmission parts, the manual gearbox sold me a car 20y ago, I loved manual shifting on it it felt like you imagine fast and furious cars felt except they drove automatics lol but that clang 2nd clang 3rd clang 4th loved it ZF know their stuff
They could say lifetime for this motor is 1 year
I prefer my just-long-enough-to-not-fail warranty from Specialized, along with no ability for self-service, and $1200 replacement cost. Thus working out to $600/year in motor cost.
Now just put a gearbox and belt drive on it!
Why? Too heavy and lot more expensive for no performance gain
@@romma11 why? How about virtually zero maintenance! No big heavy cassette, derailleur or chain and front chainring to damage or replace! Less unsprung weight on the rear wheel/suspension, weight lower and centralized! And it’s not more expensive. Have you seen the pinion MGU reviews on the Nicolai Saturn 16? Why not?
@@romma11 Your statement is just false. Belt drive is superior to chain one in every single way.
@@onetime242 with electric drive support lot of gears can be reduced and move into electrical domain, if not all eventually. Electric ebike support motors already have gear reduction and in combination of electrical modulation can reproduce gearing virtually eliminate any rear wheel cogs . There is no need for heavy transmission
@@romma11old tech of cassette/derailuers have no place on emtnbikes…..the only exception maybe entry level bikes
Good grief, so awesome. Who's on tap for wowing us with a new motor tomorrow? I'm going to start giving my EP801 some serious side-eye.
That motor looks tight very promising
Motor itself is phenomenal in terms of technology, durability, design. What i see is tha the implementation of the associated batteries ad commands, compared to what dji have presented, needs a lot of implementation
Amazing! Good job ZF guys.
With all the different motors coming out it’s going to become a nightmare for frame makers. The bike industry needs to decide on some set of standards, otherwise it’s going to be too expensive to make a new frame for each motor every year, and bikes will be impossible to keep going when the manufacturers get bored of making their old designs, and this will affect the second hand market. Bike lemons everywhere in 4 years
No doubt this is the better engineered motor compared to the DJI, ZF make some of the best automotive gearboxes at huge scale, this will be over engineered and bullet proof, amazing tech.
I am not sure that DJI has not done something really great.
ZF is older - but nowadays that does not mean much.
@@misiek7676 I agree the DJI solution will be good, but ZF have so much experience in durability of transmission systems that you can imagine their motor to be bomb proof and ultra reliable.
I'm with you on the reliability part, but what dji created is next level, it's just interesting that they can push out 1000w with a 36V System in a 2,5kg housing, that means high amps which means more heat which will stress the system and therefore the reliability
@@eaze7324 agree, also I can only imagine how long a chain and sprockets will last with 120NM and 1000w !, a days riding in muddy conditions with 1000w won't be conducive to chain life !
DJI has build hundreds of thousands of motors for drones and there is zero tolerance for failure in the air. I fully trust their durability.
I can't wait to see what people do with this, imagine a go kart with two of these motors or even a quad motor atv,🤯🤯🤯
my second gen Bosch is still kicking strong after all those years, but thos new products launches from so many different brands are making it look ancient..
Amazing. A step up from TQ.
How is the motor resistance after you reach the cut-off limit? That was one of the worst things about the early Shimano motors.
I love the SL category with its sweetspot of 50Nm. Hopefully ZF will release an even lighter, smaller, lower powered unit. Will be a sad day if this tech kills the SL category
Oh wow, this years eurobike is crazy. My wallet already starts screaming
bikes adapting this motor, will be looking slick af
Their batteries are kind of heavy and outdated though, the 756wh one has a weight of 4,2kg. The one of dji has 800Wh and weighs 3,7kg
@oldkayakdude Yeah, but solid state batteries development will first come into the car industry and maybe after that we can hope, still a long run. Maybe 2030+
Chinese Dengfu makes 840Wh and exactly 4kg!
It looks like ZF could easily make a hub motor out of that unit as well.
The motor is quiet so you will hear the noise coming from the derailleur system better. 😁
living in hills im still anti electric MTB but watching actors like ZF coming into the market with such approaches makes me think about it again tbh, just hope for the bike market prices to stabilize and get in a reasonable specter rather than getting as expensive as motorcycles or cars
Great video, show us some wheelies!
Hey Mr ZF please please bring out a combined motor gearbox unit
Nice and tight looking motor. What about the controllers? they look err chunky is that a prototype or the final?
They seem to also have a similar approach to DJI with the brake disc ring style speed sensor.
Hopefully the final version will use special brake disc for braking and rotation sensing.
This bike made by „old haibike“ CEOs, who selled haibike and create raymon bikes… zf is in the same town in germany, in Schweinfurt… i Worked at 2017 at this motorsystem at zf in schweinfurt 😊
Where can you buy this motor?
so when is a motor+gearbox unit coming in the industry? Pinion has shown some kind of a prototype, but still, 1 year later, there are no bikes with it.
Replaceable seals and a moisture ingress detector would be a useful addition to any new motor.
N.m and watts on papers don't say everything ,Amazing , well said . Amazing bike .
Love the idea of just filling it with oil to stop any water ingress. Given how compact it is I bet it barely added any noticeable weight either. I just hope the price is not too crazy. Fingers crossed its followed up with a budget model for the masses... looks like 80Nm or even 70Nm would be plenty given how much pop it has.
A PADRÃO DO MOTOR DE ARRANQUE DO CARRO ADAPTADO PRA BICICLETA... MUITO CRIATIVO. SHOW LIKE.
🙏🏼🇧🇷🙏🏼
🇧🇷👍🇧🇷
such a nice tech!
They made motor very compact to acomodate gearbox in parallel shaft soon. For sure they will have a MGU
Is super awesome motor that’s that we are eating for in ebike for long time minimalist and powerful motor I am in USA but I don’t care travel to Europe to buy this bike
i come from a motorbike background and i have said it for years ZF no there shit this in my eyes is more impressive than the dji new release motor
The hardware seems like it. But I guess the software is equally important. The future is going to be very interesting.
Does zf makes electric stuff and motors? Seem everyone is commenting on how great their gearboxes are
@@romma11yes. Listen to the guys in the video, they briefly tell you about the industries ZF operates in. It is based on a robotics motor like the TQ
This is by far the best looking motor visually
Yeah I love my Levo but it looks like it's running around with a loaded diaper
If ZF are getting into eBikes can they not replace the sodding cassette and derailleur?! Come on get a mini torque converter in there somewhere too!
100% agree. The cassettes not fit for purpose on an ebike.. I'm insanely gently on my drivetrain but a gx cassette is skipping under load after 500miles. £160 to replace, that's 35pence a mile in cassettes🤔 almost doubled what my van costs in diesel. It's a joke.
@@bmartinot 1300 miles on sram NX 11-50 ...no skipping...2. chain
@@zoranpl that's better. Still over 10pence a mile in cassettes. Seems that not many people getting much more that that put of them. Maybe depends where you ride. Mines all of road smashing around but I never shif under load and always keep my cadence up.
They have to sell to a mature market, as a new player they don't want to alienate the whole customer base by building a moto.
Rohloff
Completely amazing
Looks like a high powered TQ motor, and definitely appears to be a generational leap in power to weight/size mid-drive motors! We just need batteriy tech to also make a generational leap to improve the range per Wh.
Looks awesome! I like that it is quite stealthy as well. It is a shame that the MTB snobs in the US are so against E-bikes. You can't legally ride them on 95% of the trails here.
that cool, they should have bring a gearbox for emtbs as well with their know how
KELLYS THEOS F100 with ep801 and 825wh battery is 20.6kg already. This might be their pic for future as it might save some space.
20.6kgs and 820wh? U sure mate?
I register them for sometime they are pretty innovative. Have beaten Bosh in their own game of ebike batteries twice. They use batt with much higher energy density. I reckon also their frames are light.
@@MrSmith-iz9zv PRESS RELEASE: Kellys
Kellys THEOS F100 is one of the lightest full-powered enduro e-bikes in the world equipped with a full-performance 85 Nm motor, new-generation hi-energy-density 825 Wh battery with the highest energy density in the world and with overall weight of just 20.6 kg!
@@MrSmith-iz9zv Yes. Its pricey tho. But 150/140 full carbon eeeverything. And lightweight battery.
Looks awesome. I’m surprised there’s no bolt holes though, just a cradle? Is it friction fit or some notches that hold it in place? Seems like an odd choice. What if some grit gets in there and starts squeaking?
Every time I think about getting a new bike, I gotta push the wait a while button in my brain......they better do a class 3
Very nice - it won't be cheap though
ZF good stuff
Like someone said already whats the deal with the down tube then apart from giving room in the triange for suspension etc? you may as well have a traditional shape motor there still
Was waiting on someone making a harmonic or strainwave motor, used for robotic arms. Disapointed they didnt incorporate gearing they missed a step there, this should have been done 10 years ago at least.. im a mech tech and a big shout out goes to Alan Millyard who at least enclosed his gearing sys in an oil bath yonks ago.
Ebike industry needs to standardise battery and motor integration. Not every frame is proprietary design
Round, or the laying egg😂😂😂
If they did it before how big would the standard be today? As all the other brands have bigger motors they will not accept a standard that doesn't fit their motor.
If ZF wants to build a light ebike motor it will be smaller and lighter but it can't get smaller because it would need to fit the standard.
A standard for the plugs and charging would be a good idea a standard size for motors isn't.
E-bike motor evolution is pretty crazy, how long before Shimano & Bosch start using the strain wave type of motor, my e-bike experience is minimal but the nicest ride was a TQ Trek
Which one would you like to get your hands on first to test...the ZF or the DGI?
This is even better than dji, all this stuff makes current ebikes obsolete
Why do you think it's better than the one from DJI? The overall package from DJI seems much better to me (e.g. because of the battery density, fast charging etc.)
@@jugibur2117 only because of motor form factor. I believe hub style motors are better from mechanical integration and are very stealthy . In addition this one claims superior efficiency. DJI is for sure better in terms of whole package.
It is effectively next Gen tq50 motor, but from zf. Same principle - harmonic motor.
So many new motors and we still are waiting for current brands' new models like Porsche itself that bought Fazua.
Man I’m glad I waited to get an ebike because there are some great new setups coming soon!
I was trying to buy a Santa Cruz Heckler this last week. I kinda hope my local bike shop doesn't call me back. i wonder how long it will take for either this unit or the DJI to show up in orderable bikes.
Please show all exciting motors weight, power, torque, and approximate price in comparison when reviewing new motors.
Lots of new stuff hitting the market but can’t evaluate without a baseline.
The design seems very similar to the TQ motor with strain wave gear system. This has a lot more torque
Things are getting out of control...in a good way. Between this, DJI and Pinion who knows where we will be in 12 months time. So good!
I just hope major brands are getting in... I am really tired of bosch and shimano motored bikes eventhough there are already lot of alternatives out there. How come only a hand full of mtbs are using the pinion MGU?
Great to see so many strong players entering the market.
We just need a motor that is half as strong and half the weight and we're golden.
@Rob not sure you can say that this is the first ZF's emtb motor since ZF owns Sachs and the Sachs RS was released some time ago.
Neat!
GEARBOX GEARBOX GEARBOX! Come on ZF!!! :D
Hoping this makes it possible to make smaller eMTBs, especially for people who need bikes that are truly XS, with appropriate stand-over.
Compact is in their name. Okay my eMTB purchase just got postponed!!
amazing I want one for my Creo. What average power can it run at?
Now next step would be to get rid of the Derailleur and instead put the transmission with clutch and freewheel into the motor unit. This way the transmission would be better protected, you could use a belt instead of a cain and maybe that way they could add regenerativ breaking, too
Поездил бы вверх по лестницам на этом супер моторе)
Did they say what the waterproofing rating was, if I was Bosch, Shimano or specialised/brose I would treat this as a huge wake up call 😮🤯
i want one
Ah, the good old chain snapper mode
Since ZF is gearbox oriented I'm expecting gearbox version as the pinion MGU to throw out rear mech.
48 V is awesome hopefully you can use any 48 volt battery.
is it me or could I see chains being destroyed by that motor lol.
When can we start seeing in in bikes?
Given the diminutive size, it looks like it should be a possible retrofit to other ebikes. Aside from battery/electronics, the motor mount should just require laser cut plates, a clamp, bashguard and 3d printed shroud. Will ZF go for that?
This is not like a german engineer thinks ;-) ...it must be perfect fit.
Greetings from an german engineer.
@@josefv8708 Of course, how silly of me😁
Greetings from an English engineer (well qualified many years ago at least. I'm actually a youth worker now)
I hope companies like this make them so they're hackable for when you're not in the city or in areas like mine that don't have much for ebike regulation(in my US state 1,400 watts is the max and only regulation but 1,400 nominal can me maxed much higher).
Nice. This is ZF Germany😊
I’ve never bought an Ebike before and now I’ve never wanted to buy one so bad.
90Nm is just the max torque, at a specific rpm. You need the torque curve, which can be put "on paper". When you don't understand what is "on paper" of course it can feel "different". But the complete behaviour of that motor can be put "on paper", if you understand it.
I wonder what is the Q-Factor for this motor (ie the width)? Important if we want to see it in road bikes with standard BB Width. A comparison of its size with the TQ HRP50 motor would be nice
To be legally classed as an EAPC and therefore be legal under UK e-bike laws, the maximum power output from the pedal-assist motor can't be more than 250 watts.