Paragraph 199 in the Secret History of the Mongols (where Sübe'etei gets given the iron cart by Chinggis Khan) is interesting as obviously, it shows Sübe'etei as being the only one in command in Ox Year 1217. But, we know from more sources written before the Toluid revolution (see again Atwood's article, "Jochi and the Early Western Campaigns"), that in fact Jochi was in command with Sübe'etei. By the point in time, Jochi was arguably the more prominent commander between the two. Thus we might suspect the Secret History's source (or the original event) saw Chinggis providing Jochi with an iron cart (before Jochi's importance was minimized by the pro-Toluid sources from Möngke onwards, the Secret History being the first of these in 1252). Basically, just more evidence against Sübe'etei being uniquely carted around in an iron chariot.
Alternative working titles for this video included "Sübe'etei: was he an absolutely thicccc Boi?" and "Subutai? More like Chub-utai." But I lacked the courage to commit to it
In my head cannon, Sube'etei is some kinds of a martial artist with his lance - the weapon he used against the bandits, which he passed on to his grandson Aju who also used a lance to fend off an ambush, it should be noted that it is extremely hard to use a lance on horseback and requires much training.
I like the idea. Almost like the "holy lance." "This was the spear used to rescue my father and provide a herd of sheep to Chinggis Khan at his lowest moment!"
I've been waiting for this and absolutely love the video thank you! and I think about Subutai's appearance and impact on battle of Mohi and he did this on a cart? unimaginable.
Not only that, but the idea that he was so fat a normal cart would not be able to hold his weight. The Mongols, like basically every steppe people, used carts for moving their homes and possessions, so these were not flimsy things. The idea that they had carts were so fragile that they could not hold the weight of a single individual nomatter their weight is pretty laughable. It's one of those beliefs which is on such shaky 'evidence,' that it's a wonder how it caught on in the first place. Though I suppose it shows how willing people are to latch on to such things that it's a mainstay of Sübe'etei's popular image.
Buddy. I’ve consulted the oracles, and your mission from this point on (phd be damned) is coverage of Amir Timur aka Tamerlane the Great. I’ve spent the last 22 months studying The Mongols and perusing every single thing on TH-cam about them (and there is quite a lot) but when that naturally evolved to coverage of Timur, there is virtually nothing, meaning you can watch everything there is in one day quite easily. Naturally this gap should be filled in by someone like you, as I can already see you explaining with relish the epic battles with the Mughals, Bayezid, The Hospitalars of Smyrna etc.
Possibly late this year or next I might write a podcast series on Temür and the Timuruds for Kings and Generals: if that happens, I may do a video series on him at the same time since I'd already be deep in researching him. Definitely a worthy topic. I'd imagine most videos on Temür on TH-cam just use Justin Marozzi's book. Slowly I'm actually building up a library of sources and scholarship on Temür, so I could do something far beyond what most of these other creators could.
@@AnnhilateTheNihilist I read it a couple years ago. I remember thinking it was not bad, but my opinion might be different now though. However it remains basically the only book most people can find: at best they might real Beatrice Forbes Manz's (now a little out of date, and I think also out of print) book on him. So I expect Wikipedia or Marozzi remain the main source most of the time
@@TheJackmeisterMongolHistory there’s a pretty good 4 part podcast from’warlords of history’ and goes in detail to his early defeats… which is not mentioned in the book we’re referring.
Great piece of work! How about you cover the earlier nomadic powers like the Huns, Pechenegs, Avars, early magyars etc.. I think your content is the best regarding steppe nomads on TH-cam... Btw have you read the story of Ibn Fadhlan? He did mention the nomads.
A very nice explanation. It just goes to show how important evidence is to writing history. It is always annoying when historians are sparing with their footnotes and citations. It also highlights how some popular perceptions are based on the primary sources available to read. It is why I there is great merit in translating sources otherwise known to only a few academics.
Great video like always, I always wondered if Subutai would had still become the biggest general from history in matter of land mass conquered from a single person tactics and command, if Jebe wouldn't have died. I wish you a very good new year.
excellent example. It's hardly some alien thing that requires an overexplanation as some people have tried to do. Wooden wheels can break through regular use; if you're going on a long distance journey over difficult terrain with uncertain access to material to repair it, it doesn't seem that unusual that you'd want to reinforce such an important part of the vehicle.
I hadn't, but that would actually be a very good idea. I haven't done a video like that in a while, and the Pechenegs would be a great topic. Since I'm currently researching the Mongol presence in Europe, it would be a useful point of reference to learn more about the interactions with pre-Mongol nomadic peoples.
I am waiting for the day that this channel and/or Kings and Generals would blow up. It's just a matter of time a Mainstream media will catch on the Mongol history with the feed from the Hollywood and Netflix. There is just too much source material and just enough murkyness to play with for the creators of the future.
I worry that Netflix's Marco Polo might have spoiled the interest though. Basically it cost a huge amount of money (apparently it was a $200 million USD loss for Netflix for just the two seasons), and the way Hollywood works is that they look at the source matter being the problem, rather than the execution. Though apparently Ghost of Tsushima is getting a film adaption; perhaps that will do good, though frankly I don't hold out much faith for video game movies. If Bodrov's Mongol sequel ever comes out that also be beneficial. But honestly, Hollywood seems to tentative to do an actual historical medieval epic outside of Robin Hood movies or something about a Roman legion going missing in Britain that I won't ever hold out much hope for that.
I can almost enjoy parts of the first season of Marco Polo. I liked most of the actors and some of the scenes... I could tell that the guys who made the show had actually read a book about Marco Polo and the Mongol Empire at some point, as there was lots of little references to historical things there (touches like Khubilai and Ariq Böke talking about how their father died). It felt like the writers simply lacked the budget to approach it properly, or at least lacked the writing ability to work around that in a creative way. I found that the show never did a very good job of showing the scale of the empire; they basically made the war against the Song feel like a conflict between two city-states: Khanbaliq and Xiangyang(which they combined with Hangzhou in the show). There's weird decisions in the first season (down to things like making Ariq Böke alive in the mid 1270s!!) but I kinda see where they were going with it. I think I forced myself to enjoy it more than it deserved. Season 2 meanwhile, can be summarized as "army of crusaders travels all the way across Asia and sneaks into China without anyone noticing." I did not feel bad about the show being cancelled after that.
Great video but you overlooked one thing--Temujin's old enemy Tarqutai. According to the Secret History upon his capture as an older man he was too fat to ride a horse and had to be brought in on a cart. And in his case I believe it because Tarqutai literally means "fatso". I'd be willing to bet this is where the whole "too fat to ride a horse" slander started. Writers of various sources probably got mixed up over time.
Good example, I'd forgotten about old Targutai. Another perhaps pertinent contemporary example, was one of the main Jin Dynasty generals falling ill, and having to command a battle against the Mongols while needing to be pushed around in a cart (he actually wins the battle). Basically showing that battle could still be conducted from a cart. I can see how if a person had all of these examples in their head, then reading the reference to Sübe'etei and the iron cart could appear as something like polite innuendo; a way to indirectly refer to him being fat and requiring a cart. The Secret History does this when it refers to Sübe'etei's troubles on the "Great Raid," where the entire campaign, the death of Jebe and defeat against the Volga Bulghars gets reduced to "Sübe'etei had been put into a difficult situation by these peoples." It's a rather discreet way to refer to a well-known, and perhaps embarrassing, fact that the campaign, from the Mongol perspective, did not go very well. In that logic, we could imagine how an individual could justify the iron-cart reference.
I had a mind to try and track this through the scholarship and see if I could find the first person who came up with the "fat Sübe'etei theory," but found, perhaps unsurprisingly, the people mentioning it were generally not providing citations for it. Such a thing I don't find very surprising; it's hard to give a citation for a fact you cannot find an original source for.
@@TheJackmeisterMongolHistory I think the best explanation is the one you gave in the video--some writers just hate a vacuum and will fill it with pure fiction if they have to. I'm not even 100% sure the Tarqutai thing is true. All the Secret History says is that he couldn't ride a horse and had to be pulled in a cart. It gave no reason why. I think later Chinese translators made the leap to him being obese, probably because of his nickname. But who knows for sure.
That reminds me of how Weatherford says Sübe'etei was "probably blind in one eye." Again: there is no description of that. We have lots of descriptions of individuals losing an eye in combat, or being reference as having one eye (Nogai being an obviously example). But no description of "the one-eyed Sübe'etei." However, it shows up a lot in artwork people make of Sübe'etei, I think for no other reason other than "it looks cool." It's a short-hand way to say "this fellow is experienced in combat," and make them stand out in a crowd scene. And I'm pretty certain that was Weatherford's entire 'evidence' for Sübe'etei 'probably' being blind in one eye, as he says.
You can see an example of 'one-eyed Subutai' labeled on the artwork on this page: historycollection.com/murder-holes-machicolations-and-other-medieval-warfare-facts/39/
23:34 Nonton TH-cam Lanjutin The Armchair Historian How Yugoslavia Liberated Itself In WW2 23:51 Ayah keluar kamar Turun kebawah terus masuk Kekamar 23:52 Veritasium How Electricity Actually Works 00:00 Turun kebawah kekamar Mandi 00:30 Balkan Mapping Ukraine War Update 00;38 Jackmeister Was Subutai Actually Obese
Ah yes, the sexiest thing in the universe - proper critical analysis of the primary sources! Fun fact: the Polish word for 'hero' - 'bohater' (which most likely came to our language via Ruthenian) is etymologically related to that Subutai's epithet mentioned at 2:36.
I very much agree on your first point! Derivatives of ba'atar are also found in Persian, Urdu, Hindi and all branches of the Turkic languages. In theory, you could be understood by everyone from India, to the edge of China, to your home in Poland by exclaiming 'ba'atar/baatar/bahadur! etc." It's so common, it's almost weird that western European languages never ended up with a form of it, yet kept "horde."
Going back to the primary sources is great and I applaud it. However, modern academia puts an extreme focus secondary literature and preceding research, even if said research is of low quality. It should not be this way, but using the actual sources to often will get you in trouble. I learned this the hard way with my dissertation.
My MA thesis was very much focused on how a lot of the preceding secondary literature on Nogai was very incorrect, and how people went to extreme lengths to try and force primary sources to fit into the popular secondary source narrative. I've been lucky so far that the response has been positive (one of the fellows who I noted who propagated it, Professor István Vásáry, was thankfully very convinced by my argument, and he had been my external reader). But I also took a few shots at some really big names guys like the late George Vernadsky, who really just made things up as far as I can tell (I said it much more academically, though). Now that the articles I made out of my thesis are on their way to the peer-review process, I'll see how a wider audience of academics reacts. I suppose at that point I will get push back like you're saying, from people going "how dare you disregard the statements of Vernadsky, the great professor emeritus!" I think it's almost a sunk-cost fallacy (and not unique to Academia); where once you learned something one way, you don't like to have to change it. A good academic should be swayed by an argument with convincing use of the primary sources, rather than dogma.
@@blugaledoh2669 It can be if used improperly. And I don't want to make it sounds like we should utterly disregard secondary literature by means. Understanding ongoing scholarship is important for using these sources; it's only on the back of scholarship like Dr. Atwood's, for instance, that we can recognize that the Secret History of the Mongols, Shengwu Qinzheng lu, Rashid al-Din and Veritable Recorded are not independent sources, but descendant from the same tradition. At face value it could be easy to see the SHM as an eyewitness thing made right after Chinggis Khan's death; but the scholarship has argued persuasively recently that it is a product of the Möngke Khaan and reflects pro-Toluid historiography. Good history understands how to balance historiography and historical sources. Bunk can seep into the scholarship that gets repeated so many times that everyone simply assumes it has to be somewhere. One small example. Professor Peter Jackson is one of the top scholars on the Mongol Empire alive today; but even in his excellent, thoroughly well sourced "The Mongols and the Islamic World," he gets the name of Nogai's father wrong, and says that Nogai's father was Tutar, a prince killed by Hülegü. I've written that before (it's in my thesis) and numerous others have, too. Jackson makes a point of comparing Nogai to another Jochid prince, Tamma-Toqta, who was sent to attack the Ilkhanate in 1290s; Tamma-Toqta's father, Balaghi, was also killed by Hülegü. Except when revisiting the source which describes this matter, I found that Rashid al-Din was very consistent; Nogai's father was named Tatar, and his first-cousin was Tutar. It was Tutar who was killed by Hülegü. It's such a small, simple mistake; you read too quickly, the names get confused, and the explanation of Nogai going to avenge his father makes perfect sense (Rashid also specifically states revenge was Nogai's motivation). And I, like many others, repeated that without thinking. The example in this video with the iron cart is the same; plenty of otherwise excellent scholars have repeated that Sübe'etei was overweight, needed a cart to move around. But as I showed here, there isn't any basis for this. It's why we need to revisit these primary sources, and clear up sometimes simple, sometimes major, nonsense that seeps into the scholarship. But you need that scholarship to be able to understand the context and background of these sources, and know how to use them. Some sources will be better for certain topics, and some are mistranslated (it's always best to view them in their original language, but that's a difficult task itself). The scholarship gives the tool to learn how to make these assessments.
In the Galician-Volynian Chronicle, the Rus' and their Qipchap allies were right on the Mongols' heels during that 9 day retreat: the Rus' and Qipchaps capture much of the cattle the Mongols' had with them during the first day or so of the pursuit. Considering that cattle were used to pull the carts, if the retreat was moving too quick for cattle to keep up, it was likely too quick for carts (they'd be falling behind into Rus' and Qipchaq hands); and that would not bode well for Sübe'etei if he was restricted to a cart. Of course, the cattle may have been kept in a body away from the main army under only a light guard. And someone could argue that the Mongols' willingly abandoned the cattle to slow down the Rus'... but it's generally not a great tactic to abandon a significant food source to an enemy you don't actually know will pursue you, especially when you're only going deeper into the steppe. I'm personally of the opinion it was not an intentional thing, and that the start of the 9 day feigned retreat was basically an actual retreat before turning into a very well executed trap.
More so, by 1223 Sübe'etei had, as far as we can tell, been constantly on campaign and marching since 1211. That's over a decade of hard travels, hard times and often living off campaigns rations (millet, dried meats, thin broths, whatever they got in tribute). That's a very difficult lifestyle to somehow overindulge and become exceptionally overweight in. Honestly to do that, you're basically becoming a liability to the army on account of all the provisions you'd be eating by yourself. Like I said in the video, Sübe'etei basically lived his entire life like that. It's one thing for a largely sedentary fellow like Khubilai to become overweight; it's quite another for a guying never not on campaign to do so. Personally I think Sübe'etei would have ended up rather lean and weather beaten on account of that.
I'll look into; while there's plenty of indication of the Mongols' love of wrestling in the 13th century, I've not seen much for it being used in actual combat situations. Most sources are pretty much in agreement on the Mongols (as in, the actual Mongols in the Mongol army, as well as other nomadic troops) avoiding hand-to-hand combat as much as possible.
Sübe'etei (Subutai) was probably not fat. There is no medieval description of his appearance. All the modern descriptions are based off misunderstood and misrepresented historical data.
He was undoubtedly skilled, though he doesn't really come into the prominence we associate with him until after Chinggis' death. In Chinggis' own lifetime Mukhali or Jebe were probably considered the greatest of the Mongol generals.
I think to an extent it's probably hyperbole and wasn't so morbidly overweight that his own body crushed him. Qonichi was probably overweight, but I imagine this is like a fisherman's tale where the fish gets larger with each retelling. Qonichi was Khan of the Blue Horde, and by the time descriptions of him made their way to the Ilkhanate, they had grown rather more dramatic. Probably the weight was a comorbidity, but he could have died of any manner of complication that would cause (heart disease, for example). Something that in the thirteenth century you'd never be able to detect or comprehend. So the simple explanation for someone who died in their sleep without any obvious signs as to why --> their neck fat crushed their windpipe or something.
No! The primary sources which discuss Subedei's background (Secret History of the Mongols, Rashid al-Din's Jami al-Tawarikh, the Yuan Shi biographies of Subedei) are all consistent in describing Subedei as a Mongol, whose family had lived in close-connection to Chinggis Khan's for 5 generations and were full nomads. So where does the confusion come from? Well, it's two very similar names. The sources have Subedei come from the Uriyangqat, a branch of the Mongols. As Rashid al-Din wrote: "They say the original branch called after Qiyan [from whom the Qiyat Borjigon, Temujin’s lineage, were named for] wielded the bellows, and thus the tribe known as the Nukuz and the tribe of the Uriyangqat, who are a branch thereof, also wielded the bellows.” The Yuan Shi biography has Subedei's father specified as a sheep herder in the steppe But there was also the Turkic Uriyangqai [different ending!], one of the forest-peoples/ Hoi-yin irgen, who are supposed to be the ancestors of the Tuva. Sources like Rashid al-Din are very clear that the forest Uriyangqai were a distinct group from the steppe Uriyangqat, and also have Subedei associated with the Uriyangqat. Back to Rashid al-Din, who writes: "The “Forest” Uriangqat Tribe: This tribe has no connection to the other Uriangqat. They got this name because their yurts were in the forests" [here the translator, W.M. Thackstons, render it as Uriyangqat instead of Uriyangqai.] Rashid al-Din then specifies that the Forest Uriyangqai 1) do not herd sheep and look down on it (though we know that Subedei's father was a sheep herder) and 2) that there was no famous people of the Forest Uriyangqai, and they did not go on campaign or contribute troops, and only names a single Uriyangqai of any importance, a middle-ranking commander named Udachi. Of course, Subedei and multiple members of his family fought in campaign. Even if Subedei was of Tuvan ancestry, it's also specified that his family had been steppe dwellers for around 100 years. So Subedei was most definitely not a reindeer herder. It appears that the belief that Subedei was a reindeer herder rests entirely on confusing these two names and assuming they refer to the same group, which is not the case at all in the medieval sources.
I wonder detail of how Kabul Khan and Ambagai Khan ruled their people. Was it confederation of Borjigin noble house ? How was military/social organization of their Khanate ? They just used Küreen(groups in wagon) system like Jamuka and pre-1204 Chinggis Khan ? If not,is there any information that they used decimal system ?. Also,early song or tang source(ı dont remember which one) mention colorful and fantasy-like Mongol society(aka Monggeku) They use fish for armor,eat uncooked meat and raise pig. Just few century after,this fantastic ,independent folks became boring feudal nomadic goverment. I mean,what happened to fish armor,uncooked meat and pigs. Exactly when they evolved into feudal nomads ? Man,Pre-Chinggis Mongol history just unopened treasure
I can actually answer regarding that Song/Tang source you're thinking of, because in total coincidence I was actually reading it yesterday! It's Li Xinchuan "Random Notes from Court and Country," and is compiled around 1210-1217. It's contemporary to the Mongol invasion of the Jin, and is actually the earliest source to note the Mongols conquests and give Chinggis Khan's name. He writes (coming from Dr Atwood's recent translation, pg. 64-65) "There was also a Mong kingdom to the northeast of the Jurchens. The Tang called them the Mong'u tribe, the Jin called them the Mong'u, as well as calling them Monggu. The people did not cook their food, could see in pitch dark, used shark skin for armour, and could deflect flying arrows. They began to rebel in the early Shaoxing years [1131-1162, which is approximate period for Khamag Mongol] and the Chief Military Commander Zongbi campaigned against them year after year but was unable to quell them. In the end he was unable to suppress them, so instead he divided up his troops to occupy the strategic points and bought them off generously. Their chief also usurped the title "Ancestral Emperor." By the time of the Jin ruler Liang [1149-1161], they had long since been a border menace along with the Tatars. The Mongs having invaded the Jin kingdom, they took Kitan and Han women as wives and concubines. The children born subsequently were no longer entirely like the Mongols, and they gradually began to cook their food. At this point, the Tatars consequently called themselves "The Great Mongol State," and the border officials called them Mong-Tatars." The Chinese traced the ancestry of the Mongols to the Amur River area; here (and on Sakhalin Island), the people actually do make clothing out of fish skin. Look up "Nivkh Fish Skin Robe." Apparently it is mostly out of salman. There is not modern attestation for shark being used; perhaps there was in the 1100s, or perhaps this is just the Chinese misunderstanding it and turning it into a type of armour. With pig too, that's a pretty usual sign of peoples in Manchuria and the Amur region. If we do assume the Mongols came originally from there, then fish skin clothing and raising pigs would actually be expected. However in the steppe, they'd have to abandon both, (pigs can't be raised in the steppe, and don't have access to the same quantity of fish that you'd need to make clothing out of them). I do think that they have been able to find mention of "Mongs/Meng-wu" or related terms in some pre-Song sources, and they do seem to support a gradual western movement from the Amur region (and arriving in Onon-Kherlen around 1000). Whether these are actually related to the Borjigon Mongols, or just happened to be a similar name, is another matter.
As I always say, one day I will do my dream series on pre-Chinggisid Mongolia, and look at Khitan rule there, and what Khamag Mongol might have been like. But it always ends up getting push behind all the other things I need to do.
Definitely yes, Temujin's rise to power was very much similar to the other prominent inner asian leaders, he started with very little, his first engagement is literally with the bandits stealing his horses, and then he began to (possibly), what may be called by a later term "qazaq" or brigand, that is raiding, stealing, attacking the others, etc to gather more followers, and he must have fought side by side his companions during these early engagements, even later in Temujin's life you can see he may be hit by an arrow or two, so... yes.
Personally, I've always gotten the sense that even the Secret History of the Mongols largely indicates Chinggis wasn't on the frontlines very often, once he had any following. Basically the occasions that Temüjin himself ends up in direct danger in the SHM, that's when something has gone terribly wrong in the battle. If things are going right, then Temüjin SHOULD NOT be under treat. Of course there are long-distance shots like when Jebe got him in the neck with an arrow. But I do agree with Phú in that the earliest stages of his career, he not only would have been personally leading raids, but it would have been expected of him to demonstrate his courage in this manner. We see the vestiges of this even during Babur's years of qazaqliq. I think that Temüjin, like most sensible commanders, got off the front line (both in a given battle, and in terms of his career) as soon as he could (and once his courage was demonstrated and didn't need to be questioned). There's just too much that can go wrong in battle that it doesn't make good sense to leave your commander there longer than necessary.
@@TheJackmeisterMongolHistory Any source mention about his fighting skill and courage in war ? There are rich explanations in Rashid Al Din how Temujin's grand father Bartan Bahadur such brave and talentet warrior and in battle,he detach from his troops and dived into the enemy alone. I wonder if similar explanations exist about Temujin
@@earlmahmud9637 I'd have to do a more thorough look before I categorically said either way. But there isn't, as far as I can remember, specific accounts of Chinggis personally in combat. There's obvious folkloric things like "Temüjin gets ambushed by a bunch of bandits and fights them off." I find it telling, that I can think of examples of Jochi actually in combat (and in great danger) but not Chinggis. In one of the letters from Chinggis to the Daost Qiu Chuji, Chinggis says he always is at the front. But there is no specifics and was almost certainly just a literary flourish.
@@earlmahmud9637 I might wonder if these facts are related : Chinggis avoids taking part in the melee, but spreads stories of Bartan being this almost Hercules like figure, of Yesügei being a great war leader, in order to build up his reputation more (especially in his early days).
No evidence to suggest it. Seems doubtful based off his lifestyle. But his weight and appearance are not described in any medieval source so we do not know
Paragraph 199 in the Secret History of the Mongols (where Sübe'etei gets given the iron cart by Chinggis Khan) is interesting as obviously, it shows Sübe'etei as being the only one in command in Ox Year 1217. But, we know from more sources written before the Toluid revolution (see again Atwood's article, "Jochi and the Early Western Campaigns"), that in fact Jochi was in command with Sübe'etei. By the point in time, Jochi was arguably the more prominent commander between the two. Thus we might suspect the Secret History's source (or the original event) saw Chinggis providing Jochi with an iron cart (before Jochi's importance was minimized by the pro-Toluid sources from Möngke onwards, the Secret History being the first of these in 1252). Basically, just more evidence against Sübe'etei being uniquely carted around in an iron chariot.
Alternative working titles for this video included "Sübe'etei: was he an absolutely thicccc Boi?" and "Subutai? More like Chub-utai." But I lacked the courage to commit to it
bro google sumo champions from the last 20 year's mongols kind a good at sports when they are on the thic side
Those would have been awesome titles!
In my head cannon, Sube'etei is some kinds of a martial artist with his lance - the weapon he used against the bandits, which he passed on to his grandson Aju who also used a lance to fend off an ambush, it should be noted that it is extremely hard to use a lance on horseback and requires much training.
I like the idea. Almost like the "holy lance." "This was the spear used to rescue my father and provide a herd of sheep to Chinggis Khan at his lowest moment!"
“Big Beautiful Warrior” ha love this channel
🇲🇳🏹🎯
I've been waiting for this and absolutely love the video thank you! and I think about Subutai's appearance and impact on battle of Mohi and he did this on a cart? unimaginable.
Not only that, but the idea that he was so fat a normal cart would not be able to hold his weight. The Mongols, like basically every steppe people, used carts for moving their homes and possessions, so these were not flimsy things. The idea that they had carts were so fragile that they could not hold the weight of a single individual nomatter their weight is pretty laughable. It's one of those beliefs which is on such shaky 'evidence,' that it's a wonder how it caught on in the first place. Though I suppose it shows how willing people are to latch on to such things that it's a mainstay of Sübe'etei's popular image.
Buddy. I’ve consulted the oracles, and your mission from this point on (phd be damned) is coverage of Amir Timur aka Tamerlane the Great. I’ve spent the last 22 months studying The Mongols and perusing every single thing on TH-cam about them (and there is quite a lot) but when that naturally evolved to coverage of Timur, there is virtually nothing, meaning you can watch everything there is in one day quite easily. Naturally this gap should be filled in by someone like you, as I can already see you explaining with relish the epic battles with the Mughals, Bayezid, The Hospitalars of Smyrna etc.
Possibly late this year or next I might write a podcast series on Temür and the Timuruds for Kings and Generals: if that happens, I may do a video series on him at the same time since I'd already be deep in researching him. Definitely a worthy topic.
I'd imagine most videos on Temür on TH-cam just use Justin Marozzi's book. Slowly I'm actually building up a library of sources and scholarship on Temür, so I could do something far beyond what most of these other creators could.
@@TheJackmeisterMongolHistory that’s the book I just finished reading… it was okay hardly comprehensive. I’m looking forward to it !
@@AnnhilateTheNihilist I read it a couple years ago. I remember thinking it was not bad, but my opinion might be different now though. However it remains basically the only book most people can find: at best they might real Beatrice Forbes Manz's (now a little out of date, and I think also out of print) book on him. So I expect Wikipedia or Marozzi remain the main source most of the time
@@TheJackmeisterMongolHistory there’s a pretty good 4 part podcast from’warlords of history’ and goes in detail to his early defeats… which is not mentioned in the book we’re referring.
Subutai gained his name for his ravenous hunger for his favorite sandwich. 👁👄👁
History done properly
great video !
Thank you! Very glad you enjoyed it!
Never realized mongol history is the best history
Great piece of work! How about you cover the earlier nomadic powers like the Huns, Pechenegs, Avars, early magyars etc.. I think your content is the best regarding steppe nomads on TH-cam...
Btw have you read the story of Ibn Fadhlan? He did mention the nomads.
What a wonderful channel
A very nice explanation. It just goes to show how important evidence is to writing history. It is always annoying when historians are sparing with their footnotes and citations. It also highlights how some popular perceptions are based on the primary sources available to read. It is why I there is great merit in translating sources otherwise known to only a few academics.
There is no shame in not knowing.
Is a good saying.
Great video like always, I always wondered if Subutai would had still become the biggest general from history in matter of land mass conquered from a single person tactics and command, if Jebe wouldn't have died. I wish you a very good new year.
Is there any reason for the Hazaragi song in the end? Any connection between Hazaras and Mongols?
In India, bullock carts have iron rims on wooden wheels
excellent example. It's hardly some alien thing that requires an overexplanation as some people have tried to do. Wooden wheels can break through regular use; if you're going on a long distance journey over difficult terrain with uncertain access to material to repair it, it doesn't seem that unusual that you'd want to reinforce such an important part of the vehicle.
Proper treatment of Weatherfords book! =D
Just goes to show, you have to be careful with guys named Jack W. when they talk about the Mongols....
@@TheJackmeisterMongolHistory =D
Hi Jackmeister, I was wondering if you plan on covering the pechenegs?
I hadn't, but that would actually be a very good idea. I haven't done a video like that in a while, and the Pechenegs would be a great topic. Since I'm currently researching the Mongol presence in Europe, it would be a useful point of reference to learn more about the interactions with pre-Mongol nomadic peoples.
I am waiting for the day that this channel and/or Kings and Generals would blow up. It's just a matter of time a Mainstream media will catch on the Mongol history with the feed from the Hollywood and Netflix. There is just too much source material and just enough murkyness to play with for the creators of the future.
I worry that Netflix's Marco Polo might have spoiled the interest though. Basically it cost a huge amount of money (apparently it was a $200 million USD loss for Netflix for just the two seasons), and the way Hollywood works is that they look at the source matter being the problem, rather than the execution.
Though apparently Ghost of Tsushima is getting a film adaption; perhaps that will do good, though frankly I don't hold out much faith for video game movies. If Bodrov's Mongol sequel ever comes out that also be beneficial. But honestly, Hollywood seems to tentative to do an actual historical medieval epic outside of Robin Hood movies or something about a Roman legion going missing in Britain that I won't ever hold out much hope for that.
I can almost enjoy parts of the first season of Marco Polo. I liked most of the actors and some of the scenes... I could tell that the guys who made the show had actually read a book about Marco Polo and the Mongol Empire at some point, as there was lots of little references to historical things there (touches like Khubilai and Ariq Böke talking about how their father died). It felt like the writers simply lacked the budget to approach it properly, or at least lacked the writing ability to work around that in a creative way. I found that the show never did a very good job of showing the scale of the empire; they basically made the war against the Song feel like a conflict between two city-states: Khanbaliq and Xiangyang(which they combined with Hangzhou in the show). There's weird decisions in the first season (down to things like making Ariq Böke alive in the mid 1270s!!) but I kinda see where they were going with it. I think I forced myself to enjoy it more than it deserved.
Season 2 meanwhile, can be summarized as "army of crusaders travels all the way across Asia and sneaks into China without anyone noticing." I did not feel bad about the show being cancelled after that.
Happy Mongol Monday
Great video but you overlooked one thing--Temujin's old enemy Tarqutai. According to the Secret History upon his capture as an older man he was too fat to ride a horse and had to be brought in on a cart. And in his case I believe it because Tarqutai literally means "fatso". I'd be willing to bet this is where the whole "too fat to ride a horse" slander started. Writers of various sources probably got mixed up over time.
Good example, I'd forgotten about old Targutai. Another perhaps pertinent contemporary example, was one of the main Jin Dynasty generals falling ill, and having to command a battle against the Mongols while needing to be pushed around in a cart (he actually wins the battle). Basically showing that battle could still be conducted from a cart.
I can see how if a person had all of these examples in their head, then reading the reference to Sübe'etei and the iron cart could appear as something like polite innuendo; a way to indirectly refer to him being fat and requiring a cart. The Secret History does this when it refers to Sübe'etei's troubles on the "Great Raid," where the entire campaign, the death of Jebe and defeat against the Volga Bulghars gets reduced to "Sübe'etei had been put into a difficult situation by these peoples." It's a rather discreet way to refer to a well-known, and perhaps embarrassing, fact that the campaign, from the Mongol perspective, did not go very well. In that logic, we could imagine how an individual could justify the iron-cart reference.
I had a mind to try and track this through the scholarship and see if I could find the first person who came up with the "fat Sübe'etei theory," but found, perhaps unsurprisingly, the people mentioning it were generally not providing citations for it. Such a thing I don't find very surprising; it's hard to give a citation for a fact you cannot find an original source for.
@@TheJackmeisterMongolHistory I think the best explanation is the one you gave in the video--some writers just hate a vacuum and will fill it with pure fiction if they have to. I'm not even 100% sure the Tarqutai thing is true. All the Secret History says is that he couldn't ride a horse and had to be pulled in a cart. It gave no reason why. I think later Chinese translators made the leap to him being obese, probably because of his nickname. But who knows for sure.
That reminds me of how Weatherford says Sübe'etei was "probably blind in one eye." Again: there is no description of that. We have lots of descriptions of individuals losing an eye in combat, or being reference as having one eye (Nogai being an obviously example). But no description of "the one-eyed Sübe'etei." However, it shows up a lot in artwork people make of Sübe'etei, I think for no other reason other than "it looks cool." It's a short-hand way to say "this fellow is experienced in combat," and make them stand out in a crowd scene. And I'm pretty certain that was Weatherford's entire 'evidence' for Sübe'etei 'probably' being blind in one eye, as he says.
You can see an example of 'one-eyed Subutai' labeled on the artwork on this page: historycollection.com/murder-holes-machicolations-and-other-medieval-warfare-facts/39/
23:34 Nonton TH-cam Lanjutin The Armchair Historian How Yugoslavia Liberated Itself In WW2 23:51 Ayah keluar kamar Turun kebawah terus masuk Kekamar 23:52 Veritasium How Electricity Actually Works 00:00 Turun kebawah kekamar Mandi 00:30 Balkan Mapping Ukraine War Update 00;38 Jackmeister Was Subutai Actually Obese
This dude knows the real stuff 💯💯
Ah yes, the sexiest thing in the universe - proper critical analysis of the primary sources!
Fun fact: the Polish word for 'hero' - 'bohater' (which most likely came to our language via Ruthenian) is etymologically related to that Subutai's epithet mentioned at 2:36.
I very much agree on your first point!
Derivatives of ba'atar are also found in Persian, Urdu, Hindi and all branches of the Turkic languages. In theory, you could be understood by everyone from India, to the edge of China, to your home in Poland by exclaiming 'ba'atar/baatar/bahadur! etc."
It's so common, it's almost weird that western European languages never ended up with a form of it, yet kept "horde."
in old mongol language baatar is bagathyr, russians adopted it to bogatyr, well the meaning is hero/knight
in Hindi, Bahadur means brave. Given the similarity of the name and the word, I think there might be an etymological link.
@@TheJackmeisterMongolHistory youre sexy
Going back to the primary sources is great and I applaud it. However, modern academia puts an extreme focus secondary literature and preceding research, even if said research is of low quality. It should not be this way, but using the actual sources to often will get you in trouble.
I learned this the hard way with my dissertation.
My MA thesis was very much focused on how a lot of the preceding secondary literature on Nogai was very incorrect, and how people went to extreme lengths to try and force primary sources to fit into the popular secondary source narrative. I've been lucky so far that the response has been positive (one of the fellows who I noted who propagated it, Professor István Vásáry, was thankfully very convinced by my argument, and he had been my external reader). But I also took a few shots at some really big names guys like the late George Vernadsky, who really just made things up as far as I can tell (I said it much more academically, though). Now that the articles I made out of my thesis are on their way to the peer-review process, I'll see how a wider audience of academics reacts. I suppose at that point I will get push back like you're saying, from people going "how dare you disregard the statements of Vernadsky, the great professor emeritus!"
I think it's almost a sunk-cost fallacy (and not unique to Academia); where once you learned something one way, you don't like to have to change it. A good academic should be swayed by an argument with convincing use of the primary sources, rather than dogma.
@@TheJackmeisterMongolHistory Is focusing on primary source an appeal of authority?
@@blugaledoh2669 It can be if used improperly. And I don't want to make it sounds like we should utterly disregard secondary literature by means. Understanding ongoing scholarship is important for using these sources; it's only on the back of scholarship like Dr. Atwood's, for instance, that we can recognize that the Secret History of the Mongols, Shengwu Qinzheng lu, Rashid al-Din and Veritable Recorded are not independent sources, but descendant from the same tradition. At face value it could be easy to see the SHM as an eyewitness thing made right after Chinggis Khan's death; but the scholarship has argued persuasively recently that it is a product of the Möngke Khaan and reflects pro-Toluid historiography.
Good history understands how to balance historiography and historical sources. Bunk can seep into the scholarship that gets repeated so many times that everyone simply assumes it has to be somewhere. One small example. Professor Peter Jackson is one of the top scholars on the Mongol Empire alive today; but even in his excellent, thoroughly well sourced "The Mongols and the Islamic World," he gets the name of Nogai's father wrong, and says that Nogai's father was Tutar, a prince killed by Hülegü. I've written that before (it's in my thesis) and numerous others have, too. Jackson makes a point of comparing Nogai to another Jochid prince, Tamma-Toqta, who was sent to attack the Ilkhanate in 1290s; Tamma-Toqta's father, Balaghi, was also killed by Hülegü. Except when revisiting the source which describes this matter, I found that Rashid al-Din was very consistent; Nogai's father was named Tatar, and his first-cousin was Tutar. It was Tutar who was killed by Hülegü. It's such a small, simple mistake; you read too quickly, the names get confused, and the explanation of Nogai going to avenge his father makes perfect sense (Rashid also specifically states revenge was Nogai's motivation). And I, like many others, repeated that without thinking.
The example in this video with the iron cart is the same; plenty of otherwise excellent scholars have repeated that Sübe'etei was overweight, needed a cart to move around. But as I showed here, there isn't any basis for this. It's why we need to revisit these primary sources, and clear up sometimes simple, sometimes major, nonsense that seeps into the scholarship.
But you need that scholarship to be able to understand the context and background of these sources, and know how to use them. Some sources will be better for certain topics, and some are mistranslated (it's always best to view them in their original language, but that's a difficult task itself). The scholarship gives the tool to learn how to make these assessments.
Please make video on chenkis khan 4 dog of wars
Be funny if it was the opposite like he’s overly jacked and buff that his muscles are to buff for him to move long enough 😂
Muscles from having to carry Batu on his back, probably
@@TheJackmeisterMongolHistory nah, dude was a gym rat.
For the algorithm
Subedai wouldn’t have been capable of riding for 9 days straight (Kalka river) if he was a fat man on a cart. As far as I know.
In the Galician-Volynian Chronicle, the Rus' and their Qipchap allies were right on the Mongols' heels during that 9 day retreat: the Rus' and Qipchaps capture much of the cattle the Mongols' had with them during the first day or so of the pursuit.
Considering that cattle were used to pull the carts, if the retreat was moving too quick for cattle to keep up, it was likely too quick for carts (they'd be falling behind into Rus' and Qipchaq hands); and that would not bode well for Sübe'etei if he was restricted to a cart.
Of course, the cattle may have been kept in a body away from the main army under only a light guard. And someone could argue that the Mongols' willingly abandoned the cattle to slow down the Rus'... but it's generally not a great tactic to abandon a significant food source to an enemy you don't actually know will pursue you, especially when you're only going deeper into the steppe. I'm personally of the opinion it was not an intentional thing, and that the start of the 9 day feigned retreat was basically an actual retreat before turning into a very well executed trap.
More so, by 1223 Sübe'etei had, as far as we can tell, been constantly on campaign and marching since 1211. That's over a decade of hard travels, hard times and often living off campaigns rations (millet, dried meats, thin broths, whatever they got in tribute). That's a very difficult lifestyle to somehow overindulge and become exceptionally overweight in. Honestly to do that, you're basically becoming a liability to the army on account of all the provisions you'd be eating by yourself.
Like I said in the video, Sübe'etei basically lived his entire life like that. It's one thing for a largely sedentary fellow like Khubilai to become overweight; it's quite another for a guying never not on campaign to do so. Personally I think Sübe'etei would have ended up rather lean and weather beaten on account of that.
@@TheJackmeisterMongolHistory man I agree. Still… don’t pursue the Mongols!
why u think it took 9 days for?
Mongolian martial arts please
Yep, especially regarding Medieval Mongol hand to hand combat training, of which the traditional wrestling might have had an influence.
I'll look into; while there's plenty of indication of the Mongols' love of wrestling in the 13th century, I've not seen much for it being used in actual combat situations. Most sources are pretty much in agreement on the Mongols (as in, the actual Mongols in the Mongol army, as well as other nomadic troops) avoiding hand-to-hand combat as much as possible.
You should write a book
yeah you may google sumo champions from the last 20 years and you may find your answer
Im a mongolian great vids my guy do a vid on Borte
Who can tell me the result of this video? My english capacity is too low to understand video ㅠ.ㅠ
I am korean
Sübe'etei (Subutai) was probably not fat. There is no medieval description of his appearance. All the modern descriptions are based off misunderstood and misrepresented historical data.
@@TheJackmeisterMongolHistory oh so touchful🥺 thank u for replying.
My pleasure! Please always ask if something is not clear. The video does no good, if it's not understood!
He was the greatest general In history of warfare
Well, he obviously wasn't in the eyes of Genghis Khan and his contempoaries.
He was undoubtedly skilled, though he doesn't really come into the prominence we associate with him until after Chinggis' death. In Chinggis' own lifetime Mukhali or Jebe were probably considered the greatest of the Mongol generals.
How does one get so fat in the 13th century that his neck fat actually threatens to kill him?
I think to an extent it's probably hyperbole and wasn't so morbidly overweight that his own body crushed him. Qonichi was probably overweight, but I imagine this is like a fisherman's tale where the fish gets larger with each retelling. Qonichi was Khan of the Blue Horde, and by the time descriptions of him made their way to the Ilkhanate, they had grown rather more dramatic.
Probably the weight was a comorbidity, but he could have died of any manner of complication that would cause (heart disease, for example). Something that in the thirteenth century you'd never be able to detect or comprehend. So the simple explanation for someone who died in their sleep without any obvious signs as to why --> their neck fat crushed their windpipe or something.
Was he actually a Tuva reindeer herder?
No! The primary sources which discuss Subedei's background (Secret History of the Mongols, Rashid al-Din's Jami al-Tawarikh, the Yuan Shi biographies of Subedei) are all consistent in describing Subedei as a Mongol, whose family had lived in close-connection to Chinggis Khan's for 5 generations and were full nomads.
So where does the confusion come from? Well, it's two very similar names. The sources have Subedei come from the Uriyangqat, a branch of the Mongols. As Rashid al-Din wrote: "They say the original branch called after Qiyan [from whom the Qiyat Borjigon, Temujin’s lineage, were named for] wielded the bellows, and thus the tribe known as the Nukuz and the tribe of the Uriyangqat, who are a branch thereof, also wielded the bellows.” The Yuan Shi biography has Subedei's father specified as a sheep herder in the steppe
But there was also the Turkic Uriyangqai [different ending!], one of the forest-peoples/ Hoi-yin irgen, who are supposed to be the ancestors of the Tuva. Sources like Rashid al-Din are very clear that the forest Uriyangqai were a distinct group from the steppe Uriyangqat, and also have Subedei associated with the Uriyangqat.
Back to Rashid al-Din, who writes: "The “Forest” Uriangqat Tribe: This tribe has no connection to the other Uriangqat. They got this name because their yurts were in the forests" [here the translator, W.M. Thackstons, render it as Uriyangqat instead of Uriyangqai.] Rashid al-Din then specifies that the Forest Uriyangqai 1) do not herd sheep and look down on it (though we know that Subedei's father was a sheep herder) and 2) that there was no famous people of the Forest Uriyangqai, and they did not go on campaign or contribute troops, and only names a single Uriyangqai of any importance, a middle-ranking commander named Udachi. Of course, Subedei and multiple members of his family fought in campaign.
Even if Subedei was of Tuvan ancestry, it's also specified that his family had been steppe dwellers for around 100 years. So Subedei was most definitely not a reindeer herder. It appears that the belief that Subedei was a reindeer herder rests entirely on confusing these two names and assuming they refer to the same group, which is not the case at all in the medieval sources.
I should do a video talking about that at some point
The man's possible weight isn't exactly very interesting. Wow!
He was a little chubby but still ate Magyars n Russians for lunch 🥗
BBW: Big Beautiful Warrior lol
So grom the paunch? Hahahaha
I wonder detail of how Kabul Khan and Ambagai Khan ruled their people.
Was it confederation of Borjigin noble house ?
How was military/social organization of their Khanate ?
They just used Küreen(groups in wagon) system like Jamuka and pre-1204 Chinggis Khan ?
If not,is there any information that they used decimal system ?.
Also,early song or tang source(ı dont remember which one) mention colorful and fantasy-like Mongol society(aka Monggeku)
They use fish for armor,eat uncooked meat and raise pig.
Just few century after,this fantastic ,independent folks became boring feudal nomadic goverment.
I mean,what happened to fish armor,uncooked meat and pigs.
Exactly when they evolved into feudal nomads ?
Man,Pre-Chinggis Mongol history just unopened treasure
Sorry for too many question😅
total shit written by some ill people
I can actually answer regarding that Song/Tang source you're thinking of, because in total coincidence I was actually reading it yesterday! It's Li Xinchuan "Random Notes from Court and Country," and is compiled around 1210-1217. It's contemporary to the Mongol invasion of the Jin, and is actually the earliest source to note the Mongols conquests and give Chinggis Khan's name.
He writes (coming from Dr Atwood's recent translation, pg. 64-65) "There was also a Mong kingdom to the northeast of the Jurchens. The Tang called them the Mong'u tribe, the Jin called them the Mong'u, as well as calling them Monggu. The people did not cook their food, could see in pitch dark, used shark skin for armour, and could deflect flying arrows. They began to rebel in the early Shaoxing years [1131-1162, which is approximate period for Khamag Mongol] and the Chief Military Commander Zongbi campaigned against them year after year but was unable to quell them. In the end he was unable to suppress them, so instead he divided up his troops to occupy the strategic points and bought them off generously. Their chief also usurped the title "Ancestral Emperor." By the time of the Jin ruler Liang [1149-1161], they had long since been a border menace along with the Tatars. The Mongs having invaded the Jin kingdom, they took Kitan and Han women as wives and concubines. The children born subsequently were no longer entirely like the Mongols, and they gradually began to cook their food. At this point, the Tatars consequently called themselves "The Great Mongol State," and the border officials called them Mong-Tatars."
The Chinese traced the ancestry of the Mongols to the Amur River area; here (and on Sakhalin Island), the people actually do make clothing out of fish skin. Look up "Nivkh Fish Skin Robe." Apparently it is mostly out of salman. There is not modern attestation for shark being used; perhaps there was in the 1100s, or perhaps this is just the Chinese misunderstanding it and turning it into a type of armour.
With pig too, that's a pretty usual sign of peoples in Manchuria and the Amur region. If we do assume the Mongols came originally from there, then fish skin clothing and raising pigs would actually be expected. However in the steppe, they'd have to abandon both, (pigs can't be raised in the steppe, and don't have access to the same quantity of fish that you'd need to make clothing out of them).
I do think that they have been able to find mention of "Mongs/Meng-wu" or related terms in some pre-Song sources, and they do seem to support a gradual western movement from the Amur region (and arriving in Onon-Kherlen around 1000). Whether these are actually related to the Borjigon Mongols, or just happened to be a similar name, is another matter.
As I always say, one day I will do my dream series on pre-Chinggisid Mongolia, and look at Khitan rule there, and what Khamag Mongol might have been like. But it always ends up getting push behind all the other things I need to do.
@@TheJackmeisterMongolHistory Is there any info in Mongol sources which support Mongols eat uncooked meat before Ancestral Emperor(Kabul Khan) ?
In short, the myth a our Subutai as fat lack ed primary source
I suggest you make episodes on the contemporary tribes of genghis Khan. That is, an episode for each tribe, maybe only the significant ones.
So King and Generals were wrongg!! 🤯🤯
+++
New Mongol Myths suggestion:
Young Temujin was skilled warrior ?
He ever fought in frontline or always sitting on the hill ?
Definitely yes, Temujin's rise to power was very much similar to the other prominent inner asian leaders, he started with very little, his first engagement is literally with the bandits stealing his horses, and then he began to (possibly), what may be called by a later term "qazaq" or brigand, that is raiding, stealing, attacking the others, etc to gather more followers, and he must have fought side by side his companions during these early engagements, even later in Temujin's life you can see he may be hit by an arrow or two, so... yes.
Personally, I've always gotten the sense that even the Secret History of the Mongols largely indicates Chinggis wasn't on the frontlines very often, once he had any following. Basically the occasions that Temüjin himself ends up in direct danger in the SHM, that's when something has gone terribly wrong in the battle. If things are going right, then Temüjin SHOULD NOT be under treat. Of course there are long-distance shots like when Jebe got him in the neck with an arrow.
But I do agree with Phú in that the earliest stages of his career, he not only would have been personally leading raids, but it would have been expected of him to demonstrate his courage in this manner. We see the vestiges of this even during Babur's years of qazaqliq. I think that Temüjin, like most sensible commanders, got off the front line (both in a given battle, and in terms of his career) as soon as he could (and once his courage was demonstrated and didn't need to be questioned). There's just too much that can go wrong in battle that it doesn't make good sense to leave your commander there longer than necessary.
@@TheJackmeisterMongolHistory Any source mention about his fighting skill and courage in war ?
There are rich explanations in Rashid Al Din how Temujin's grand father Bartan Bahadur such brave and talentet warrior and in battle,he detach from his troops and dived into the enemy alone.
I wonder if similar explanations exist about Temujin
@@earlmahmud9637 I'd have to do a more thorough look before I categorically said either way. But there isn't, as far as I can remember, specific accounts of Chinggis personally in combat. There's obvious folkloric things like "Temüjin gets ambushed by a bunch of bandits and fights them off." I find it telling, that I can think of examples of Jochi actually in combat (and in great danger) but not Chinggis.
In one of the letters from Chinggis to the Daost Qiu Chuji, Chinggis says he always is at the front. But there is no specifics and was almost certainly just a literary flourish.
@@earlmahmud9637 I might wonder if these facts are related : Chinggis avoids taking part in the melee, but spreads stories of Bartan being this almost Hercules like figure, of Yesügei being a great war leader, in order to build up his reputation more (especially in his early days).
So was he fat?
No evidence to suggest it. Seems doubtful based off his lifestyle. But his weight and appearance are not described in any medieval source so we do not know
I smell fat shaming...
You sure that's what you smell? 🧈
No that’s just the burning fat of mountains of corpses left in the general’s wake.