Here's my ultimate way to make an intimidating antagonist: Have them win. Have them succeed in a goal that they were seeking to achieve. Have them absolutely demolish the protagonist and leave them in the dust. What makes or breaks a villain for me is their competence. If the protagonist fools the antagonist during every encounter, the antagonist will feel like a wimp. There's nothing more intimidating than knowing that your opposition is actually capable of succeeding. There's nothing more invigorating to a reader like me than seeing the main character(s) suffer at the hands of the villain before the villain's inevitable downfall.
Excellent idea, but the issue here then is that it’s built up the hype for the inevitable final encounter so much it could be disappointing if the villain is taken down too easily.
This is actually why I really didn’t find Negan intimidating in The Walking Dead. His whole buildup was great, but the group had taken out 50 Saviours before he’s introduced which just made them seem like an army of chumps. But from Season 6 episode 16 - Season 7 episode 8, Negan was intimidating and in control. After that he is constantly outwitted and beaten time after time with no ability to actually outsmart Rick or adapt. It seemed very uncharacteristic for someone that was able to build a well armed and supplied army, takeover settlements, and organise a supply network. This is a dude that was smart and physically imposing. But that all went away sadly.
What do you think about an antagonist that genuinely cares for our main character but when our protagonist meets their destiny, it interferes with the antagonist' s goals and beliefs, causing them to be on opposing sides?
a really good example of this is catra and adora from the she-ra reboot! they were best friends up until adora stumbled upon the sword, saw the atrocities that the army they were a part of was committing, and decided to desert. she tried many times to convince catra to come with her to the good guys side, but every time she refused. the writers use it to give reason to catra’s actions and build tension along the way and i think it’s super cool :)
A perfect example of this I immediately thought of was Dracula. Along the novel Dracula feels like a gathering storm. the characters talk about his manifestations in many ways and you feel his presence everywhere. In the end you feel like you understand him as you do the protagonists and even when you don't want him to succeed, you kinda want to. I think what I really want to say is fuck the Twilight series.
I actually find antagonists to be easier to write than protagonists. It's easy enough to take a noble or understandable motive and corrupt it to produce evil behavior, but taking a good person and corrupting him just enough to be relatable and not a Mary Sue but not so much that he becomes morally dubious or an unlikable jerk takes a lot more finesse. But perhaps that's because I'm more of a big-picture guy who takes a top-down approach that works from the inside out: starting with an ideal person and adding realistic flaws until I have a set of motives that will produce realistic behavior (yes, even the villains start out conceptually from a premise of a good person with serious corruption and flaws, albeit to the point where they usually can't be called remotely good anymore), rather than an approach that starts by mimicking the observed behavior of people in real life (who are usually closer to protagonists than antagonists) and then inferring the character's motives and morality from that.
It is possible to create a protagonist who is unlikeable in a very likable way, like Mr. White, for example, who’s a terrible person but a compelling protagonist.
I disagree with the "understanding the antagonist" part in certain situations, it is much more terrifying to face the unknown and unpredictable. This is especially true for non-human characters, who don't share the same way of thinking as we do. Obviously I am not advocating for a cheesy "I'm so evil" card-carrying villain, unless your making a story for toddlers. Then again, in most cases you will want your antagonist to be a relatable character; creating a sympathetic adversary adds depth to a story. An antagonist doesn't necessarily need to be a villain, but just someone or something constantly getting in the way of The Protaganist.
I remember Scott Smith's The Ruins with this comment. The antagonist in that novel brought out the worse from the main characters (fleshing them out in the process) while actively aiding in their demise.
@@baguettegott3409 (talking about the movie here cause I still haven't gotten around to the books) Eh, I didn't really like Sauron for that reason. I was waiting the whole time for him to do something, and he never did. He just kinda watched Frodo and built up suspense towards himself and then just did absolutely nothing. It was Saruman who actually did things and was a threat, not Sauron. Not to say I minded Sauron, but it is a prime example of poor writing for me.
@@noellerutledge8789 It's similar in the books because he also doesn't show up, but maybe it's clearer that he is, in fact, NOT watching Frodo, which is the entire point. He's an almighty dark Lord, a god (kind of, more like an angel) - if he knew what Frodo was up to and where he was, the story would be over really damn fast. So often people in books/movies say again and again how suuuper powerful the antagonist is, but then he still inevitably loses the battle against our hero and it kind of undermines undermines the whole "too powerful to be overthrown" thing. In LOTR, the villain really is too strong to fight him directly, which is why they don't do it. He is on such a different level of power and importance that any kind of... interaction between him and the leads would inevitably come across as ridiculous and make Sauron appear way too human. And it makes sense from Sauron's perspective to not intervene as well. Not in the Frodo-Sam-Gollum part because he doesn't KNOW about it because they're so small and irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. And not in the other half of the plot because he's scared of Aragorn, who he presumes might have the Ring, which would make him an actual threat. It's not what you usually expect from a villain, but I like it a lot. We have Nazgul and Saruman as direct threats, we don't need Sauron to show up with a big sword. (I apologize for all the text, couldn't restrain myself :D
@@baguettegott3409 Don't apologise for talking about things you love. It's delightful to read. This makes me want to finally read the books. Quite frankly I was a bit stunned and scarred by The Hobbit, I couldn't bring myself to open LotR 😂
The disappearing antagonist can be done very well The antagonist of "Eragon" scared me because I had absolutely no picture of him Also I love psychotic antagonists/protagonists that are just doing it for the lolz Like Izaya from Durarara (my favorite lightnovel) or Umbridge from Harry Potter
I've just discovered your channel and truly appreciate all the professional advice you have for writers. I am a science fiction novelist and I am working hard to be better at what I write. Everything you say about creating effective antagonists is true. This video also reminded me of the genius that is Stephen King. I just saw the movie version of "It" and was once again reminded how he crafted an antagonist that is really nothing more than an incarnation of pure evil and who has no other motive than to be just that, and makes it work.
Hey, Ellen, I'm not a novel writer but I do episodic graphic stories and your tips have been beyond useful. I've been finding that a lot of your tips work really well in my format, and it makes the brief arcs where antagonists exist feel more alive.
Hey guys! For today's video I decided to focus on some common problems with antagonists that I haven't seen other videos go over. I lost a bit of footage and didn't have time to reshoot (Novel Boot Camp must go on!) so please forgive the choppiness in a couple parts. I'm still working on overcoming my technological difficulties. Let me know if you have any questions about antagonists. Thanks!
hi Ellen. would you say it is best to have one main antagonist or several with varrying degrees of evil/negativity towards the protagonist? i love your videos, new subscriber!
It depends on the situation. If you have many antagonists with their own motivations the plot can become cluttered or difficult to follow. If each antagonist is major, they will all need a climactic scene in the fourth quarter which could be challenging.
This is a concern I've had in mind for my current fantasy/sci-fi WIP with the two main antagonists. To the uninformed reader, I feel like they're going to come off as targeting the heroes and being jerks for no reason, though they have defined personalities. But late in the story once you find out why, it suddenly all makes sense.
The advice you gave is great, I remember in the begging of my story I was like 'Eh, he's just gonna be bad for the sake of it, who cares', that's when I was younger of course and I kept seeing him in my mind as this dark tall evil looking figure and I didn't really care about him that much, but with time I gave him backstory, motivations and at this point he's one of my most developed characters and I really grew to love him. And btw the quality of your videos is amazing 😍
I'm happy to discover I'm avoiding these pitfalls in my novel! My guide in writing compelling, relatable, plot-advancing and yet scary antagonists has been Whitley Strieber, especially in Wolfen and Unholy Fire.
Any advice for when your antagonist is a "good guy" until he/she undergoes a change of heart or otherwise becomes a "bad guy" at the midpoint? Thanks for all of your tips!
it depends like if the antagonist is a cop then turns bad then they still try to stop the protagonist it's good you would have this twist shown properly sorry if this doesn't make sense but I hope I gave some insight
I think part of what you're asking about is, "Why is the bad guy a bad guy?" Raymond E. Feist wrote a series (Conclave of the Shadows: Talon of the Silver Hawk, King of Foxes, and Exile's Return) that is essentially an examination of evil. One of his main points in the series is: *The* *bad* *guy* *doesn't* *think* *he's* *a* *bad* *guy*. Usually. In some cases, yes, the bad guy knows what he's doing is wrong. But, keep in mind that humans are not, as someone once claimed, "the *rational* animal." Humans are the *rationalizing* animal. People every day all over the world tell themselves that, while what they are doing might not be so nice, they are completely justified in doing it. If you're wondering how the, "good guy," turns into the, "bad guy," this might well be your answer. The good guy still thinks he's doing the 'right' thing. Or he thinks that what he's doing might not really be the 'right' thing but it is the only thing he can do and/or that he is perfectly justified in doing the 'wrong' thing because the end will justify the means. That is, the good guy feels that he has to do something that he knows is wrong because it will result in some kind of benefit for someone that seems, to him, to outweigh whatever wrong thing he has to do to accomplish that future good. One of the characters in Feist's story, it is explained later, has exactly these motivations. Eventually they completely spiral out of control and he goes from one small 'wrong' thing to something a bit worse, until he is, in the end, doing truly horrible things without realizing that the end most certainly does not justify the means at all any more. The movie, "Falling Down," is a good example of this kind of spiral, also. Of course, as Feist points out in the above series, maybe the bad guy is just insane. Maybe the bad guy really is just that crazy. Of course, in this series he invents a god of insanity who can make you insane simply by knowing of his existence. One of the characters in the series is the primary servant of this god in the world and is simply evil. Depending upon your setting such a thing could be possible. But as Ellen pointed out in the previous video: You have to follow your own rules. Feist certainly managed to make it entirely believable.
My Name - Thank you, but that's not what I was trying to get at. I know that the antagonist will think of him/herself as a good guy and rationalize their actions, but what I'd like to know is how to achieve a sensation of momentum and threat in the first half of the story when the protagonist and antagonist are seemingly on the same side.
Subtle hints, I suppose? But that's a tough game. You never know who is going to find your subtle hint blatantly obvious and who is going to miss the connection entirely. You could do some kind of internal monologue of the antagonist-to-be's thinking, I suppose. Or some kind of action or reaction that gives a clue as to their thinking and how it isn't really in line with the protagonist's thinking or what would be the 'right' thing to do. Another way of building tension would be for it to be obvious to the reader that the antagonist has switched sides but the only reason the reader knows it and the protagonist doesn't is because the reader obviously knows things that the protagonist doesn't have information about or has information about but simply hasn't figured out yet. I'd be really careful about the, "hasn't connected the dots yet," version, though. I've read quite a few books that tried that and it just ended up either ruining the suspension of disbelief or making the protagonist considerably less sympathetic and/or believable. If your protagonist really _is_ supposed to be a bit clueless it might be alright. But that's going to be a tough characterization to maintain the sympathy of the reader with. Either way, in that kind of situation, it's going to be tough. I'm sure there are other ways to build that tension but those are the only two that come readily to mind: Subtle hints for the reader or lack of knowledge on the part of the protagonist but clear indications for the reader. They both come with their set of difficulties and a rather different kind of tension for the reader.
What can be also very interesting is if you try to make the motivations and the antagonist himself in the very end more relatable then the protagonist. For example in the movie "Bladerunner" you have the protagonist Deckard basicly just running arround and kill the "bad guys" while they are just trying to survive. If you watch just the last scene (just serarch on YT for "Bladerunner tears in rain") than you cant realy say anymore who is the good and hwo the bad guy. If you try to make the antagonist just a charakter with very relatable motivations and in that sens kind of a good guy, who just stands in some conflict with the protagonist than this can make him and the relationship between prota and antago imo very interesting. In that sense you could also try to make the motivations and goals of the main character in contrast to those of the antagonist darker and more critical. Like for example the protagonist just wants to kill the antagonist for vengeance reasons, ect.
True. I think it's because the joker is more relatable than we'd like to admit, and in some ways, is an inspiration. Now let me explain. The Joker is the exact example of when someone snaps. This can be caused by pressure from any source. Regardless of where the pressure came from, it's relatable to at least some level. Everyone is under pressure. Some are under more pressure than others, but we all have it, meaning that on some level, we relate to the Joker as someone who just couldn't take it anymore, something we've all felt. But the Joker is also an inspiration because he shows us why we *can't give up.* We can't snap, we can't let go of our compassion, even when life is hard because I mean, look how the Joker turned out. He inspires us to be better than him, to keep holding on unlike how he fell away. We hate him, we fear him, and that's because on some level, we all see ourselves in him.
@@kleindavid9416 Exactly, which rule does he break? 1. The Antagonist Has No Presence in the Story. Joker has a large presence in the story. 2. The Antagonist is Mean/Cruel Without a Goal. Joker has a goal, and is being mean to achieve it. 3. The Antagonist's Behavior Isn't Caused by a Logical Belief, Goal, and Motivation. Joker is chaotic and it is caused by a belief, goal and motivation. So what the hell are you all talking about that he's breaking the rules? I haven't watched a single movie about joker, but the few clips of him says a lot. Are you all sleeping when watching the batman movies?
I'm glad you decided to recast your blog into video form. I've never seen your blog; but you have such a personable yet authoritative stage presence that I feel you've "torn down the fourth wall."
Thank you very much. I cannot explain how hard and how many years it has taken me to make sense of the villian in my story. I was so focused on the development of the protagonist journey that I couldn't move pass the villian is "evil". Very eye opener vid. Thank you thank you thank you!
I have a story that I've been occasionally building and I just realized, "WHERE'S YOUR ANTAGONIST BRO?" That's the title of my note to myself. So, thanks for the video.
The moments when points come up one by one with silent audio for a moment helps a lot tbh. It helps to pause and take in whatever was said before it. Great presentation. And the audio quality of this one is amazing. The description helps a lot too. Thank you so much. 🙂 👍
Thank you Ellen! You teach with plain language, experience and love for writing. I can only imagine the energy that comes from actually sitting in one of your classes. You are a positive wizard!
Oh, I am so glad you are still on! I love your Podcast. I am a screenwriter but find all of your lessons helpful in writing screenplays. MOst of the episodes I listen to multiple times just t let it all sink in.
Best part about coming back to these videos now that I've reached a point in my story where yur antagonist has been defeated is being able to see which of these pitfalls I haven't fallen into and which areas I can afford to work on for the next draft.
Hey :D it's awesome to see that you're back! I've waited for more videos from you, because although I follow most of the writing channels here on youtube, yours are somehow more in-depth and set a different perspective on topics which I have felt haven't been explained so thuroughly before. With that said - I'll be happy to see more videos from you, but have you thought about doing them once a week? I don't want you to burn out :( Thanks for making these videos!
These videos are part of my Novel Boot Camp event. I set aside the majority of my time in August to devote to this event each year which is why I'm doing 3-4 videos per week. I don't normally have time to make videos the rest of the year, but I'm hoping to change that if possible.
Love your videos Ellen! I'm currently writing a YA novel and every time I have an issue I come watch multiple videos of yours to sort it out! Thanks for making these! Could you possibly make some videos about the publishing process? [if you've already made these just ignore this and i'll look through your channel again!] But maybe what it's like getting an agent, what happens when you get an agent and they give it to a publisher, how long after you give it to a publisher is it actually published - etc. I think it would be really interesting to know all of that! :)
This series has been very helpful to me so far, thank you! I'm working on a novel with antagonist that has to be in another city for a while, so this video was what I needed. I appreciate the work that goes into making videos this comprehensive, yet concise!
thank you so much for this. I have written several books, but I think this has always been a shortcoming of mine. I am redoing my current book based on this vlog. I have been binging on yours and really putting them to use. keep on vlogging.
The antagonist in my story is a psychologist who enters a person's dreams and sends their inner demons to kill them, intending for the person to defeat the demon. Logically, the reader wouldn't see much of him (if anything), just the protagonist's inner demon. I want to have the psychologist himself appear in a scene later, but I'm not sure how to foreshadow it.
Make it seem like the demons are sent by someone. Gigantic fingers seemed to be around the demons but leave sight too fast and are only recalled later as an afterthought. Which means a gigantic hand put them there in the first place.
That's really cool. What I would do to foreshadow that, is to have the character or someone notice how strange it is that their exact worst fear or inner demon showed up so monstrously. Then every time another demon or wound comes up, build upon that and make another "That's slightly strange but I don't have enough time to dwell on it" observation. Then by the time of the reveal the audience will get that there's definitely something fishy going on here. Then the reveal happens and "Oh yes of course that makes total sense"
If the main character doesn't know the psychologist, they could see him at a book signing or a lecture a friend drags them to. Have the character notice biblical or religious iconography surrounding the psychologist. Like art, jewelry, music or a particular style of dress. They could have a brief convo about his religious upbringing or late in life conversion only to switch the topic. Or he could be hired by a well meaning family member to help the main character and recognize a demon that's connected to a memory of a traumatic experience only they know. Later everything is traced back to the psychologist. You can throw off the scent by introducing lesser antagonists like their personal therapist that they don't find helpful, their pastor who judges instead of helping, enabling family members or "friends" that are only around for the good times. When not fighting inner demons, back in reality these people can be who they are fighting all the time. Some may even crossover. Overall I like your story idea. :)
If the demons speak, have them use a word or phrase every now and then that the psychologist uses, but not an entire sentence. Also, have the demons occasionally perform a similar gesture or quirk that the psychologist does, such as adjusting his tie/glasses or clearing his throat. Even if someone picks up on the similarities early, they may brush it off as the author (you) not being very imaginative or creative. Thus, when the twist comes along, they should be surprised at how creative you really are. Even if they are not, if the similarities are subtle enough, most people shouldn't pick up on it until they read it a second time, now that they know to look for it. However, if that is the only twist/original thought you give to the book, no one will bother to read it more than twice. Then again, you only need them to buy the book once. Nevertheless, have some other outside plot points/drama going on. A strained relationship, an overbearing boss who makes dead line at work that may not get met, drama that adds fuel to the psychologist's fire/demons. To which the audience may think the demons are brought on by the patient's subconscious, not the psychologist's purposes. It would also be interesting if the psychologist turned out to be a demon himself. (As a Christian, I would not recommend that the advice he gives is actually sound, but simply sounds good and would lead to the patient's demise should he/she listen to it. Moral of the story is that at the end of the day, you need to learn HOW to think, not WHAT to think.) Read the Screwtape Letters for inspiration.
Great advice Ellen. Im stuck in my story r n because I cant get into the antagonists head. There is no drama or conflict.So your video helped me look at it honestly. Thx
I have a dream to work on a story (not a novel but a series like a cartoon) and I want to write it down now, while I have years to get there. Even though ive been writing for a year and a half, i still dont know much. Your videos are very helpful, and inspiring! Thanks for sharing tips and ideas with us! :D
This is actually good advice for a novel I'm in the process of revising right now. I had an editor who made much the same point about my antagonist but lacked the experience, tact or both to break down what the real issue was. Would that I could have gotten this advice from her...so thank you very much!
My villain basically just tells the truth, he’s really honest in an unnerving way. My protagonist basically represents childhood ignorance and the villain is the harsh reality that nobody really wants to fully understand, because it can drive a person crazy.
Thank you so much for the tips! I recently started watching your videos and I fell in love with your channel! I want to become a writer and I think this will help me a lot. I hope I study writing soon!
Thanks for the advice! If possible, could you do a video on how to write a novel with multiple main antagonists? Could you also address stories in which a main part of the conflict is man vs. society? Of course, all stories have man vs. self conflict too, but man vs. society can be tricky and it would be helpful if you could let us know about some clichés to watch out for. Thank you!
Can your novel have an antagonistic problem without having a single character who is the antagonist? For example, if the protagonist's main conflict is the struggle to survive against the elements or in a foreign land, and there are characters (with their own motivations) who impede that goal as well as elements like nature/environment that impede that goal is it okay to leave out a single antagonist character?
Courtney Eells That sounds like an interesting idea. There should always be some form of conflict for there to be a story but a person doesn't have to be the conflict so I say yeah, you don't need an antagonist exactly. The laws of the foreign land is the challenge.
Yes. A lot of books actually have no antagonists character and it can work. The types of conflicts can be: Man vs man Man vs nature Man vs society Man vs self
You can also have "force of nature" antagonists. Like the zombies in walking dead comic books. They have no character, no plans, no motivation, but only a clear defined instinct to feed. That moves them from the realm of antagonistic character to the realm of "force of nature". Or even something in between like the Borg. They are scary mainly because they are more a force of nature (their nature is absolute -- to assimilate) and cannot be reasoned with.
Here's a quick read of exactly that (sorry for the ugly link, it's Jack London's "To Build a Fire"): www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=americanenglish.state.gov/files/ae/resource_files/to-build-a-fire.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjRqeTGvsrlAhUPZd8KHWS_CukQFjATegQIAxAB&usg=AOvVaw0Eyh51aSnG_ylaHR1jCGtW
This helps out a lot in knowing that I'm doing something right. The one antagonist in my book is introduced as a minor character only to appear again in a couple of chapters. they then kill someone who was antagonising them and then eventually meets the protagonist, with a goal of killing her, because in the past the protagonist has do e something terrible to them and so this antagonist sees the protagonist as the antagonist or the villain hehe Keep up the good work!
I'm writing a crime drama so like godfather (but different not about mafia it's just about crimes) also can the antagonist can be a friend? someone who keeps the protagonist from moving on from criminal activities and trying to keep them as a pawn is this cliche or good
brainman67 I think it sounds like a great idea. :) I've found that an antagonist can be anyone so long as they get in the way of the protagonist's goals.
It almost sounds like a plot from an anime. Something like Code Geass comes to mind. But also Girl, Interrupted is a good example of how you can do this. So I think it's completely do-able, and the setting does spaw some good ideas in my experience.
hi Ellen I chose a difficult story to write as my first novel,it starts in 1973 then goes back to 1935 then leads up to WW2 which is main part of story
Thank you for this one! I think I realize now one of the reasons why I've been struggling with my novel and have been just plain stuck. I don't have a strong enough villain. It's funny, because normally I love to write villains and typically don't have a problem with writing them. But in this story, he's meant to be this boogeyman type character, shrouded in mystery, but instead he's coming across as more of a vague concept. Sure, he's meant to be a mystery to my characters, but he's also kind of a mystery to me. If I understand the character better, it might just help me get the story moving again. Hmmm, I think I know what I'll be working on today. It's not the only issue I'm having with getting this novel written, but it's a start! Great video as always! Thank you for reminding me about writing good villains, I needed that! Can't wait to see what's next!
The story i’m working on the antagonist is an obsessive psycho Yandere . He is constantly leaving bodies, to essentially let everyone know when he’s near them. Also part of the reason when he snapped was due to some back story stuff that I need to still work on
There once was a lion named Scar who wanted the throne. Then Simba was born. That's one way to write as story with the antagonist front and center in the conflict - the opposite of being woven in.
From her wardrobe? But be careful: walking into people's houses and taking their shirts is what makes you an antagonist! Except when you have a really good reason for it.
Oof that "kidnapping a child for money but not hurting the child for no reason" actually really helped me. My antagonist is a sort-of king of a place that is very brutal and fighty, and new heirs are decided via duels to the death between the current ruler and a challenger. This power exchange was kept in place by the antagonist, because he is afraid of losing power as he comes from a poor, lower-class background. he could have changed it, but didn't. He knows he is a great fighter, so he figures this is the best way for him to hold onto his throne, and since the town's culture already revolves around brutality and fighting, they don't bat an eye at it. Before, I had my antagonist be all "muahaha im evil and I like to kill people because I gotta stay in power and am evil (did i mention im evil??)", but now I'm thinking about making him more human, more like "I don't really like killing all these challengers, but they aren't being forced to challenge me, they chose to - and I'm not letting this throne go without a fight." I haven't thought it completely through yet, but I'll explore it more.
So, what are your thoughts on the main character playing a duel roll of both protagonist and antagonist? They are their own worst enemy, so to speak. Or the antagonist being life and circumstance as opposed to a fleshed out character.
Homelander is an interesting one. He is randomly cruel and doesn't really have a goal, but he's so well characterised that this feels true to character. What makes him so scary - probably the scariest villain I can think of in recent fiction, apart from maybe Joffrey Baratheon - is how you just don't know how he'll act in any situation. He - like Joffrey - has the power to kill without (at least immediate) repercussion at anytime. He may or may not. Going into a scene you just don't know. It generates amazing tension.
Thank you very much! My attempts at writing fiction so far have been so miserable that I want to burn the work, burn it again, and bury the ashes. Your videos are giving me hope.
One of my favorite book antagonists is Joseph Vengerov from Insignia. He's an interesting and intimidating dude that sees all human beings as diaposable tools and everytime he's in a room, you know he can just get rid of you with only a word
i have a minor problem with 2 and maybe 3: my villain is supposed to be the "you don't know something about me, so i'm scary" type (picture some horror villains, but as a human, not a force of nature) so basically everything except his identity is shrowded in mystery, and if i revealed anything he wouldn't be scary anymore. how do i make him actually feel scary, and not flat?
I plan to make my antagonist someone with the motivation of restoring his family's glory, make a living and also personnal desires. He is also a sadist.
Subscribed! I'm currently writing a novel where, for a while, it seemed like there were three antagonists (or at least, I couldn't decide which of them was the 'main' one.) Now I'm on my third draft I'm starting to feel like the antagonist of my story is actually a 'thing' rather than a person (in this case, prejudice against the protagonist because of who she used to be) and each of these three characters opposing her represents different facets of that antagonistic 'thing.' The protagonist herself is also fighting it on an internal, self-belief level. Does that sound like it could work, or is this too intangible and I'll need to embody the entire theme in a single, Antagonist Character?
My antagonist is my favorite character, and was never an afterthought. I really liked him whilst outlining and drafting, then fell in love while editing, which is why he’s got way more scenes in later drafts (he and my protagonist have a close working relationship).
My antagonists tend to become full on POV characters. ^^; I like them too much. But, they don't get as much "screen time" as the protagonists of course, but still they tend to pop up often enough. Or be mentioned if not physically present. They're super important.
I’ve been brainstorming a story about a superhero who has an antagonist named Mr. Delight. He’s a homeless veteran that comes across a medallion that not only deages him significantly, but produces this sort of aura around him that makes him very persuasive and manipulative. He quickly climbs the crime ladder, taking the place of a different crime boss and eventually assumes the name Mr. Delight or just Delight. He’s fluent in every language, and because of his military background he’s a skilled marksman and combative adversary for my main character Benjamin McCarthy (Aka Crescent). Any tips? Things that I could help improve this character? I wanna make him both an intimidating, yet almost trusting person. Someone that you could walk by and have a conversation with and not even know that he’s moving drugs and weapons throughout the city and murdering people.
My antagonist is the man. Born out of my nightmare he is the embodiment of hate. In the book the character has schizophrenia, she created the man as way to deal with her isolation. He is an abusive man, standing at about six feet tall with a raspy voice, his presence is no doubt menacing. Furthermore, his habit of following our quite young protagonist is of putting and alarming. He tells her to do bad things. Yet our protagonist does not wish him gone. As he can be friendly. But when his commands are not fulfilled he turns violent. Reportedly he pushed her head against the wall, and aimed a gun at her head. She tried to run into a car to escape the man. The fact that he often stands in the shadows waiting, and hits and yells at her if she doesn’t do what he asks makes him a generally scary antagonist. However, the most unsealing part of the man is that exist only in the mind of the protagonist. There constant interaction caused her to attempt murder. The inspiration for such a figure was a mere work of poetry. I was walking when upon my stare I saw a little man who wasn’t there. He wasn’t there again to day Oh how I wish he’d go away.
There are many Videos about antagonists, but among them little content on antagonists that are a whole system of ideas rather than centered about a single Person, the Kind of sociopolitical evil in which even the Protagonist is involved. I would really appreciate it if you have advice on that.
I need help with my paper with school!!!BTW I'm in middle school. So I'm trying to write a story (maxed pg) that's scary. So it about a guy and an insane man gets out of an aclyome and the insane man is kind of messing with him. That makes the main charater thinks his paranoid. And I don't know what to write, next.
What about a psychopathic character (not an exe murderer)? I have a psychopathic character in my story. He is best friend of MC. But my problem is how to develop that character. He cannot emotionally evolve. So, how to make him positive till end.
I just want my readers to feel like the character is actually real, and somehow close to them, i want him to be so scary that they'd actually fear him even after reading the book.
Do you guys have any advice on writing an unexpected villain? The kind of villain that keeps the reader/viewer in strong uncomfortable tension because they don't know what the villain will do next every time they're seen on screen? Any ideas?
Watching this, I realized that all of my antagonists share one common belief: the world isn't a nice place. If you want something, you have to take it, and no one is going to help you along the way. It's dog eat dog, and someone is going to win and someone is going to lose and all you can do, is make sure you turn out on top. No one is going to pick you up when you fall. You're on you're own. And my protagonist is the proof that that's a lie. And so are the many other people from every walk of life she interacts with. A convenience store owner, a lawyer, a scientist, a homeless man, a fast food worker, a marketplace owner, fans at a comic con, a police officer. She met them all because they were willing to help pick her up from a dark place, and she was willing to help them. In a way, I guess that's what the hidden message of the story was all along. There are still good people in this world, more than you could imagine. Just reach out. You'll find them, and they'll find you. Wait is it normal for me to not even realize the actual message of my own stories? Is that normal?
What about when your antagonists goal isn't necessarily the Protag, but instead someone else, but by removing the Protag they can then get to the person they really want?
Here's my ultimate way to make an intimidating antagonist:
Have them win.
Have them succeed in a goal that they were seeking to achieve. Have them absolutely demolish the protagonist and leave them in the dust. What makes or breaks a villain for me is their competence. If the protagonist fools the antagonist during every encounter, the antagonist will feel like a wimp. There's nothing more intimidating than knowing that your opposition is actually capable of succeeding. There's nothing more invigorating to a reader like me than seeing the main character(s) suffer at the hands of the villain before the villain's inevitable downfall.
Excellent idea, but the issue here then is that it’s built up the hype for the inevitable final encounter so much it could be disappointing if the villain is taken down too easily.
@@Dark_Mishra Simple solution: Make the concequences of taking down the villain dire.
Viktor Lindqvist Sounds good to me.
Heath Ledger Joker comes to mind
This is actually why I really didn’t find Negan intimidating in The Walking Dead. His whole buildup was great, but the group had taken out 50 Saviours before he’s introduced which just made them seem like an army of chumps. But from Season 6 episode 16 - Season 7 episode 8, Negan was intimidating and in control. After that he is constantly outwitted and beaten time after time with no ability to actually outsmart Rick or adapt. It seemed very uncharacteristic for someone that was able to build a well armed and supplied army, takeover settlements, and organise a supply network. This is a dude that was smart and physically imposing. But that all went away sadly.
I feel like Gothel from Tangled is a good, realistic antagonist that I haven’t seen from Disney in a while
"When the Antagonist turns out to be the Protagonist. You had better be Scared."
Attack on Titan lmao
What do you think about an antagonist that genuinely cares for our main character but when our protagonist meets their destiny, it interferes with the antagonist' s goals and beliefs, causing them to be on opposing sides?
Sounds like a cool idea!
FreedWulf That's the goal.
“Nothing personal, it’s just the job,”-Henry Cavill MI:Fallout
a really good example of this is catra and adora from the she-ra reboot! they were best friends up until adora stumbled upon the sword, saw the atrocities that the army they were a part of was committing, and decided to desert. she tried many times to convince catra to come with her to the good guys side, but every time she refused. the writers use it to give reason to catra’s actions and build tension along the way and i think it’s super cool :)
Don't expose my idea👀
A perfect example of this I immediately thought of was Dracula. Along the novel Dracula feels like a gathering storm. the characters talk about his manifestations in many ways and you feel his presence everywhere. In the end you feel like you understand him as you do the protagonists and even when you don't want him to succeed, you kinda want to.
I think what I really want to say is fuck the Twilight series.
@ricardo, nice plot twist ending. LOL.
Now I want to read Dracula
@@noellerutledge8789 you won't regret it!
I actually find antagonists to be easier to write than protagonists. It's easy enough to take a noble or understandable motive and corrupt it to produce evil behavior, but taking a good person and corrupting him just enough to be relatable and not a Mary Sue but not so much that he becomes morally dubious or an unlikable jerk takes a lot more finesse. But perhaps that's because I'm more of a big-picture guy who takes a top-down approach that works from the inside out: starting with an ideal person and adding realistic flaws until I have a set of motives that will produce realistic behavior (yes, even the villains start out conceptually from a premise of a good person with serious corruption and flaws, albeit to the point where they usually can't be called remotely good anymore), rather than an approach that starts by mimicking the observed behavior of people in real life (who are usually closer to protagonists than antagonists) and then inferring the character's motives and morality from that.
It is possible to create a protagonist who is unlikeable in a very likable way, like Mr. White, for example, who’s a terrible person but a compelling protagonist.
TH-cam is broken, it won't let me subscribe twice?!!
I disagree with the "understanding the antagonist" part in certain situations, it is much more terrifying to face the unknown and unpredictable.
This is especially true for non-human characters, who don't share the same way of thinking as we do.
Obviously I am not advocating for a cheesy "I'm so evil" card-carrying villain, unless your making a story for toddlers.
Then again, in most cases you will want your antagonist to be a relatable character; creating a sympathetic adversary adds depth to a story.
An antagonist doesn't necessarily need to be a villain, but just someone or something constantly getting in the way of The Protaganist.
I remember Scott Smith's The Ruins with this comment. The antagonist in that novel brought out the worse from the main characters (fleshing them out in the process) while actively aiding in their demise.
Yes! Who is Sauron, what does he think? We don't need to know. He's Sauron, he's not just an evil dude, that's what makes him creepy.
@@baguettegott3409 (talking about the movie here cause I still haven't gotten around to the books)
Eh, I didn't really like Sauron for that reason. I was waiting the whole time for him to do something, and he never did. He just kinda watched Frodo and built up suspense towards himself and then just did absolutely nothing. It was Saruman who actually did things and was a threat, not Sauron.
Not to say I minded Sauron, but it is a prime example of poor writing for me.
@@noellerutledge8789 It's similar in the books because he also doesn't show up, but maybe it's clearer that he is, in fact, NOT watching Frodo, which is the entire point. He's an almighty dark Lord, a god (kind of, more like an angel) - if he knew what Frodo was up to and where he was, the story would be over really damn fast.
So often people in books/movies say again and again how suuuper powerful the antagonist is, but then he still inevitably loses the battle against our hero and it kind of undermines undermines the whole "too powerful to be overthrown" thing.
In LOTR, the villain really is too strong to fight him directly, which is why they don't do it. He is on such a different level of power and importance that any kind of... interaction between him and the leads would inevitably come across as ridiculous and make Sauron appear way too human.
And it makes sense from Sauron's perspective to not intervene as well. Not in the Frodo-Sam-Gollum part because he doesn't KNOW about it because they're so small and irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. And not in the other half of the plot because he's scared of Aragorn, who he presumes might have the Ring, which would make him an actual threat.
It's not what you usually expect from a villain, but I like it a lot. We have Nazgul and Saruman as direct threats, we don't need Sauron to show up with a big sword.
(I apologize for all the text, couldn't restrain myself :D
@@baguettegott3409 Don't apologise for talking about things you love. It's delightful to read.
This makes me want to finally read the books. Quite frankly I was a bit stunned and scarred by The Hobbit, I couldn't bring myself to open LotR 😂
The disappearing antagonist can be done very well
The antagonist of "Eragon" scared me because I had absolutely no picture of him
Also I love psychotic antagonists/protagonists that are just doing it for the lolz
Like Izaya from Durarara (my favorite lightnovel) or Umbridge from Harry Potter
I've just discovered your channel and truly appreciate all the professional advice you have for writers. I am a science fiction novelist and I am working hard to be better at what I write. Everything you say about creating effective antagonists is true. This video also reminded me of the genius that is Stephen King. I just saw the movie version of "It" and was once again reminded how he crafted an antagonist that is really nothing more than an incarnation of pure evil and who has no other motive than to be just that, and makes it work.
Hey, Ellen, I'm not a novel writer but I do episodic graphic stories and your tips have been beyond useful.
I've been finding that a lot of your tips work really well in my format, and it makes the brief arcs where antagonists exist feel more alive.
Hey guys! For today's video I decided to focus on some common problems with antagonists that I haven't seen other videos go over.
I lost a bit of footage and didn't have time to reshoot (Novel Boot Camp must go on!) so please forgive the choppiness in a couple parts. I'm still working on overcoming my technological difficulties.
Let me know if you have any questions about antagonists. Thanks!
hi Ellen. would you say it is best to have one main antagonist or several with varrying degrees of evil/negativity towards the protagonist? i love your videos, new subscriber!
It depends on the situation. If you have many antagonists with their own motivations the plot can become cluttered or difficult to follow. If each antagonist is major, they will all need a climactic scene in the fourth quarter which could be challenging.
I love your top where did you get it from
Thank you, I now can write a funny antagonist.
This is a concern I've had in mind for my current fantasy/sci-fi WIP with the two main antagonists.
To the uninformed reader, I feel like they're going to come off as targeting the heroes and being jerks for no reason, though they have defined personalities. But late in the story once you find out why, it suddenly all makes sense.
The advice you gave is great, I remember in the begging of my story I was like 'Eh, he's just gonna be bad for the sake of it, who cares', that's when I was younger of course and I kept seeing him in my mind as this dark tall evil looking figure and I didn't really care about him that much, but with time I gave him backstory, motivations and at this point he's one of my most developed characters and I really grew to love him. And btw the quality of your videos is amazing 😍
I'm happy to discover I'm avoiding these pitfalls in my novel! My guide in writing compelling, relatable, plot-advancing and yet scary antagonists has been Whitley Strieber, especially in Wolfen and Unholy Fire.
Any advice for when your antagonist is a "good guy" until he/she undergoes a change of heart or otherwise becomes a "bad guy" at the midpoint? Thanks for all of your tips!
it depends like if the antagonist is a cop then turns bad then they still try to stop the protagonist it's good you would have this twist shown properly sorry if this doesn't make sense but I hope I gave some insight
I think part of what you're asking about is, "Why is the bad guy a bad guy?" Raymond E. Feist wrote a series (Conclave of the Shadows: Talon of the Silver Hawk, King of Foxes, and Exile's Return) that is essentially an examination of evil. One of his main points in the series is: *The* *bad* *guy* *doesn't* *think* *he's* *a* *bad* *guy*. Usually.
In some cases, yes, the bad guy knows what he's doing is wrong. But, keep in mind that humans are not, as someone once claimed, "the *rational* animal." Humans are the *rationalizing* animal. People every day all over the world tell themselves that, while what they are doing might not be so nice, they are completely justified in doing it.
If you're wondering how the, "good guy," turns into the, "bad guy," this might well be your answer. The good guy still thinks he's doing the 'right' thing. Or he thinks that what he's doing might not really be the 'right' thing but it is the only thing he can do and/or that he is perfectly justified in doing the 'wrong' thing because the end will justify the means. That is, the good guy feels that he has to do something that he knows is wrong because it will result in some kind of benefit for someone that seems, to him, to outweigh whatever wrong thing he has to do to accomplish that future good. One of the characters in Feist's story, it is explained later, has exactly these motivations. Eventually they completely spiral out of control and he goes from one small 'wrong' thing to something a bit worse, until he is, in the end, doing truly horrible things without realizing that the end most certainly does not justify the means at all any more. The movie, "Falling Down," is a good example of this kind of spiral, also.
Of course, as Feist points out in the above series, maybe the bad guy is just insane. Maybe the bad guy really is just that crazy. Of course, in this series he invents a god of insanity who can make you insane simply by knowing of his existence. One of the characters in the series is the primary servant of this god in the world and is simply evil.
Depending upon your setting such a thing could be possible. But as Ellen pointed out in the previous video: You have to follow your own rules. Feist certainly managed to make it entirely believable.
My Name - Thank you, but that's not what I was trying to get at. I know that the antagonist will think of him/herself as a good guy and rationalize their actions, but what I'd like to know is how to achieve a sensation of momentum and threat in the first half of the story when the protagonist and antagonist are seemingly on the same side.
Subtle hints, I suppose? But that's a tough game. You never know who is going to find your subtle hint blatantly obvious and who is going to miss the connection entirely. You could do some kind of internal monologue of the antagonist-to-be's thinking, I suppose. Or some kind of action or reaction that gives a clue as to their thinking and how it isn't really in line with the protagonist's thinking or what would be the 'right' thing to do.
Another way of building tension would be for it to be obvious to the reader that the antagonist has switched sides but the only reason the reader knows it and the protagonist doesn't is because the reader obviously knows things that the protagonist doesn't have information about or has information about but simply hasn't figured out yet.
I'd be really careful about the, "hasn't connected the dots yet," version, though. I've read quite a few books that tried that and it just ended up either ruining the suspension of disbelief or making the protagonist considerably less sympathetic and/or believable. If your protagonist really _is_ supposed to be a bit clueless it might be alright. But that's going to be a tough characterization to maintain the sympathy of the reader with.
Either way, in that kind of situation, it's going to be tough. I'm sure there are other ways to build that tension but those are the only two that come readily to mind: Subtle hints for the reader or lack of knowledge on the part of the protagonist but clear indications for the reader. They both come with their set of difficulties and a rather different kind of tension for the reader.
coffeefrog m
What can be also very interesting is if you try to make the motivations and the antagonist himself in the very end more relatable then the protagonist. For example in the movie "Bladerunner" you have the protagonist Deckard basicly just running arround and kill the "bad guys" while they are just trying to survive. If you watch just the last scene (just serarch on YT for "Bladerunner tears in rain") than you cant realy say anymore who is the good and hwo the bad guy. If you try to make the antagonist just a charakter with very relatable motivations and in that sens kind of a good guy, who just stands in some conflict with the protagonist than this can make him and the relationship between prota and antago imo very interesting. In that sense you could also try to make the motivations and goals of the main character in contrast to those of the antagonist darker and more critical. Like for example the protagonist just wants to kill the antagonist for vengeance reasons, ect.
yess. i love it when the protagonist is actually the bad guy, but made to seem good since it's from _their_ point of view
Somehow, the Joker manages to break almost all of these rules and still be one of the greatest villains of all time.
True. I think it's because the joker is more relatable than we'd like to admit, and in some ways, is an inspiration.
Now let me explain. The Joker is the exact example of when someone snaps. This can be caused by pressure from any source. Regardless of where the pressure came from, it's relatable to at least some level. Everyone is under pressure. Some are under more pressure than others, but we all have it, meaning that on some level, we relate to the Joker as someone who just couldn't take it anymore, something we've all felt.
But the Joker is also an inspiration because he shows us why we *can't give up.* We can't snap, we can't let go of our compassion, even when life is hard because I mean, look how the Joker turned out. He inspires us to be better than him, to keep holding on unlike how he fell away.
We hate him, we fear him, and that's because on some level, we all see ourselves in him.
That's why he is the greatest villain of all time, he broke all the rules of the game of evil.
whisch rules does he break?
@@kleindavid9416 Exactly, which rule does he break?
1. The Antagonist Has No Presence in the Story.
Joker has a large presence in the story.
2. The Antagonist is Mean/Cruel Without a Goal.
Joker has a goal, and is being mean to achieve it.
3. The Antagonist's Behavior Isn't Caused by a Logical Belief, Goal, and Motivation.
Joker is chaotic and it is caused by a belief, goal and motivation.
So what the hell are you all talking about that he's breaking the rules? I haven't watched a single movie about joker, but the few clips of him says a lot. Are you all sleeping when watching the batman movies?
While also being one of the most overrated
This was super helpful thank you! I love how you always hit the main problems that people have with writing.
Very helpful. I'll keep these in mind while I'm revising my book. Off topic, you look like Aloy from Horizon Zero Dawn.
Cool! Thanks!
I'm glad you decided to recast your blog into video form. I've never seen your blog; but you have such a personable yet authoritative stage presence that I feel you've "torn down the fourth wall."
Thank you very much. I cannot explain how hard and how many years it has taken me to make sense of the villian in my story. I was so focused on the development of the protagonist journey that I couldn't move pass the villian is "evil". Very eye opener vid. Thank you thank you thank you!
I have a story that I've been occasionally building and I just realized, "WHERE'S YOUR ANTAGONIST BRO?" That's the title of my note to myself. So, thanks for the video.
The moments when points come up one by one with silent audio for a moment helps a lot tbh. It helps to pause and take in whatever was said before it. Great presentation. And the audio quality of this one is amazing.
The description helps a lot too. Thank you so much.
🙂 👍
Thank you Ellen! You teach with plain language, experience and love for writing. I can only imagine the energy that comes from actually sitting in one of your classes. You are a positive wizard!
Oh, I am so glad you are still on! I love your Podcast. I am a screenwriter but find all of your lessons helpful in writing screenplays. MOst of the episodes I listen to multiple times just t let it all sink in.
Great video. Sometimes I think of my villains more of plot points than their own characters.
Best part about coming back to these videos now that I've reached a point in my story where yur antagonist has been defeated is being able to see which of these pitfalls I haven't fallen into and which areas I can afford to work on for the next draft.
Hey :D it's awesome to see that you're back! I've waited for more videos from you, because although I follow most of the writing channels here on youtube, yours are somehow more in-depth and set a different perspective on topics which I have felt haven't been explained so thuroughly before. With that said - I'll be happy to see more videos from you, but have you thought about doing them once a week? I don't want you to burn out :(
Thanks for making these videos!
These videos are part of my Novel Boot Camp event. I set aside the majority of my time in August to devote to this event each year which is why I'm doing 3-4 videos per week. I don't normally have time to make videos the rest of the year, but I'm hoping to change that if possible.
Love your videos Ellen! I'm currently writing a YA novel and every time I have an issue I come watch multiple videos of yours to sort it out! Thanks for making these! Could you possibly make some videos about the publishing process? [if you've already made these just ignore this and i'll look through your channel again!] But maybe what it's like getting an agent, what happens when you get an agent and they give it to a publisher, how long after you give it to a publisher is it actually published - etc. I think it would be really interesting to know all of that! :)
This is fantastic. It verbalises some vague thoughts I have been trying to crystalise, myself, as I write. Thank you for sharing this advice.
So glad you're back to making videos! Thank you for all your hard work, I know it isn't easy.
Finally!!! I've been trying to find videos about this for a while.
This series has been very helpful to me so far, thank you! I'm working on a novel with antagonist that has to be in another city for a while, so this video was what I needed. I appreciate the work that goes into making videos this comprehensive, yet concise!
thank you so much for this. I have written several books, but I think this has always been a shortcoming of mine. I am redoing my current book based on this vlog. I have been binging on yours and really putting them to use. keep on vlogging.
Thank you! This helped me a lot! :3
The antagonist in my story is a psychologist who enters a person's dreams and sends their inner demons to kill them, intending for the person to defeat the demon. Logically, the reader wouldn't see much of him (if anything), just the protagonist's inner demon. I want to have the psychologist himself appear in a scene later, but I'm not sure how to foreshadow it.
Make it seem like the demons are sent by someone. Gigantic fingers seemed to be around the demons but leave sight too fast and are only recalled later as an afterthought. Which means a gigantic hand put them there in the first place.
You could maybe have the demons seeming to be controlled like puppets (even maybe have strings connected to hands/feet/etc?) idk if this helps.
That's really cool. What I would do to foreshadow that, is to have the character or someone notice how strange it is that their exact worst fear or inner demon showed up so monstrously. Then every time another demon or wound comes up, build upon that and make another "That's slightly strange but I don't have enough time to dwell on it" observation. Then by the time of the reveal the audience will get that there's definitely something fishy going on here. Then the reveal happens and "Oh yes of course that makes total sense"
If the main character doesn't know the psychologist, they could see him at a book signing or a lecture a friend drags them to. Have the character notice biblical or religious iconography surrounding the psychologist. Like art, jewelry, music or a particular style of dress. They could have a brief convo about his religious upbringing or late in life conversion only to switch the topic. Or he could be hired by a well meaning family member to help the main character and recognize a demon that's connected to a memory of a traumatic experience only they know. Later everything is traced back to the psychologist. You can throw off the scent by introducing lesser antagonists like their personal therapist that they don't find helpful, their pastor who judges instead of helping, enabling family members or "friends" that are only around for the good times. When not fighting inner demons, back in reality these people can be who they are fighting all the time. Some may even crossover. Overall I like your story idea. :)
If the demons speak, have them use a word or phrase every now and then that the psychologist uses, but not an entire sentence. Also, have the demons occasionally perform a similar gesture or quirk that the psychologist does, such as adjusting his tie/glasses or clearing his throat. Even if someone picks up on the similarities early, they may brush it off as the author (you) not being very imaginative or creative. Thus, when the twist comes along, they should be surprised at how creative you really are. Even if they are not, if the similarities are subtle enough, most people shouldn't pick up on it until they read it a second time, now that they know to look for it. However, if that is the only twist/original thought you give to the book, no one will bother to read it more than twice. Then again, you only need them to buy the book once. Nevertheless, have some other outside plot points/drama going on. A strained relationship, an overbearing boss who makes dead line at work that may not get met, drama that adds fuel to the psychologist's fire/demons. To which the audience may think the demons are brought on by the patient's subconscious, not the psychologist's purposes. It would also be interesting if the psychologist turned out to be a demon himself. (As a Christian, I would not recommend that the advice he gives is actually sound, but simply sounds good and would lead to the patient's demise should he/she listen to it. Moral of the story is that at the end of the day, you need to learn HOW to think, not WHAT to think.) Read the Screwtape Letters for inspiration.
Great advice Ellen. Im stuck in my story r n because I cant get into the antagonists head. There is no drama or conflict.So your video helped me look at it honestly. Thx
Thanks! This really helped remind me what I should have in my antagonist as well as give me inspiration. loved it! :D
Thank you Ellen. Big help please keep posting.
Liked before i watched it because I know it's going to be brilliant and helpful!
I have a dream to work on a story (not a novel but a series like a cartoon) and I want to write it down now, while I have years to get there. Even though ive been writing for a year and a half, i still dont know much. Your videos are very helpful, and inspiring! Thanks for sharing tips and ideas with us! :D
This is actually good advice for a novel I'm in the process of revising right now. I had an editor who made much the same point about my antagonist but lacked the experience, tact or both to break down what the real issue was. Would that I could have gotten this advice from her...so thank you very much!
My villain basically just tells the truth, he’s really honest in an unnerving way.
My protagonist basically represents childhood ignorance and the villain is the harsh reality that nobody really wants to fully understand, because it can drive a person crazy.
Thank you so much for the tips! I recently started watching your videos and I fell in love with your channel! I want to become a writer and I think this will help me a lot. I hope I study writing soon!
This is so great. Amazing food for thought.
Thanks for the advice! If possible, could you do a video on how to write a novel with multiple main antagonists? Could you also address stories in which a main part of the conflict is man vs. society? Of course, all stories have man vs. self conflict too, but man vs. society can be tricky and it would be helpful if you could let us know about some clichés to watch out for. Thank you!
Can your novel have an antagonistic problem without having a single character who is the antagonist? For example, if the protagonist's main conflict is the struggle to survive against the elements or in a foreign land, and there are characters (with their own motivations) who impede that goal as well as elements like nature/environment that impede that goal is it okay to leave out a single antagonist character?
Courtney Eells
That sounds like an interesting idea. There should always be some form of conflict for there to be a story but a person doesn't have to be the conflict so I say yeah, you don't need an antagonist exactly. The laws of the foreign land is the challenge.
Yes. A lot of books actually have no antagonists character and it can work.
The types of conflicts can be:
Man vs man
Man vs nature
Man vs society
Man vs self
You can also have "force of nature" antagonists. Like the zombies in walking dead comic books. They have no character, no plans, no motivation, but only a clear defined instinct to feed. That moves them from the realm of antagonistic character to the realm of "force of nature". Or even something in between like the Borg. They are scary mainly because they are more a force of nature (their nature is absolute -- to assimilate) and cannot be reasoned with.
Here's a quick read of exactly that (sorry for the ugly link, it's Jack London's "To Build a Fire"):
www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=americanenglish.state.gov/files/ae/resource_files/to-build-a-fire.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjRqeTGvsrlAhUPZd8KHWS_CukQFjATegQIAxAB&usg=AOvVaw0Eyh51aSnG_ylaHR1jCGtW
Victim versus scammer. @@magnificentpup2875
Really like your videos and find them most helpful. Thank you Ellen.
Thanks Ellen! This video was exactly what my novel needed
This helps out a lot in knowing that I'm doing something right.
The one antagonist in my book is introduced as a minor character only to appear again in a couple of chapters. they then kill someone who was antagonising them and then eventually meets the protagonist, with a goal of killing her, because in the past the protagonist has do e something terrible to them and so this antagonist sees the protagonist as the antagonist or the villain hehe
Keep up the good work!
I was actually struggling with my antagonist origin story thanks.
My novel has one of those hidden antagonists you speak of! ^_^
I just came across your channel, and find it both entertaining and useful. You've earned a new subscriber!
I'm writing a crime drama so like godfather (but different not about mafia it's just about crimes) also can the antagonist can be a friend? someone who keeps the protagonist from moving on from criminal activities and trying to keep them as a pawn is this cliche or good
brainman67 I think it sounds like a great idea. :) I've found that an antagonist can be anyone so long as they get in the way of the protagonist's goals.
Thanks
Cool idea, I haven't really come across this before. Break the reader's heart by making them like the friend more than the protagonist ;)
It almost sounds like a plot from an anime. Something like Code Geass comes to mind. But also Girl, Interrupted is a good example of how you can do this. So I think it's completely do-able, and the setting does spaw some good ideas in my experience.
brainman67: Yes, a "friend" may be the creepiest kind of antagonist. He may have himself convinced that he's "doing it for your own good."
hi Ellen I chose a difficult story to write as my first novel,it starts in 1973 then goes back to 1935 then leads up to WW2 which is main part of story
Thank you for your videos, Ellen
This is a great series. Thanks for this!
Thank you for this one! I think I realize now one of the reasons why I've been struggling with my novel and have been just plain stuck. I don't have a strong enough villain. It's funny, because normally I love to write villains and typically don't have a problem with writing them. But in this story, he's meant to be this boogeyman type character, shrouded in mystery, but instead he's coming across as more of a vague concept. Sure, he's meant to be a mystery to my characters, but he's also kind of a mystery to me. If I understand the character better, it might just help me get the story moving again. Hmmm, I think I know what I'll be working on today. It's not the only issue I'm having with getting this novel written, but it's a start!
Great video as always! Thank you for reminding me about writing good villains, I needed that! Can't wait to see what's next!
this was really helpful.
Great stuff as always, Ellen!
I’d love to see a video on how to avoid info dumping. Thank you.
I would really love a video distinguishing the difference between a cliché and a classic. I personally am having trouble with these two.
The story i’m working on the antagonist is an obsessive psycho Yandere . He is constantly leaving bodies, to essentially let everyone know when he’s near them. Also part of the reason when he snapped was due to some back story stuff that I need to still work on
There once was a lion named Scar who wanted the throne.
Then Simba was born.
That's one way to write as story with the antagonist front and center in the conflict - the opposite of being woven in.
I need your shirt! Where can I get it?!
Look Human is the company I got it from. I will say that the ink on their shirts fades with every wash in my experience, just as a warning.
From her wardrobe?
But be careful: walking into people's houses and taking their shirts is what makes you an antagonist! Except when you have a really good reason for it.
Why would anyone dislike this video? Smh.
Anyway, great advice. It's really helpful.
Oof that "kidnapping a child for money but not hurting the child for no reason" actually really helped me. My antagonist is a sort-of king of a place that is very brutal and fighty, and new heirs are decided via duels to the death between the current ruler and a challenger. This power exchange was kept in place by the antagonist, because he is afraid of losing power as he comes from a poor, lower-class background. he could have changed it, but didn't. He knows he is a great fighter, so he figures this is the best way for him to hold onto his throne, and since the town's culture already revolves around brutality and fighting, they don't bat an eye at it.
Before, I had my antagonist be all "muahaha im evil and I like to kill people because I gotta stay in power and am evil (did i mention im evil??)", but now I'm thinking about making him more human, more like "I don't really like killing all these challengers, but they aren't being forced to challenge me, they chose to - and I'm not letting this throne go without a fight." I haven't thought it completely through yet, but I'll explore it more.
I'm on the right way, then. Thank you for this! 😊
This was really useful and gives me tonnnnnnnnssssss to think about, thank you!!
So, what are your thoughts on the main character playing a duel roll of both protagonist and antagonist? They are their own worst enemy, so to speak.
Or the antagonist being life and circumstance as opposed to a fleshed out character.
Another awesome very informative & helpful video. Thank you!
Homelander is an interesting one. He is randomly cruel and doesn't really have a goal, but he's so well characterised that this feels true to character. What makes him so scary - probably the scariest villain I can think of in recent fiction, apart from maybe Joffrey Baratheon - is how you just don't know how he'll act in any situation. He - like Joffrey - has the power to kill without (at least immediate) repercussion at anytime. He may or may not. Going into a scene you just don't know. It generates amazing tension.
Thank you very much! My attempts at writing fiction so far have been so miserable that I want to burn the work, burn it again, and bury the ashes. Your videos are giving me hope.
Rick Bustamante Practice makes perfect! Stick with it!
Very helpful thanks 😊
This is really good to the point advice thank you
One of my favorite book antagonists is Joseph Vengerov from Insignia. He's an interesting and intimidating dude that sees all human beings as diaposable tools and everytime he's in a room, you know he can just get rid of you with only a word
i have a minor problem with 2 and maybe 3: my villain is supposed to be the "you don't know something about me, so i'm scary" type (picture some horror villains, but as a human, not a force of nature) so basically everything except his identity is shrowded in mystery, and if i revealed anything he wouldn't be scary anymore. how do i make him actually feel scary, and not flat?
I plan to make my antagonist someone with the motivation of restoring his family's glory, make a living and also personnal desires. He is also a sadist.
Very helpful! Thank you!
Writing antagonists like an afterthought?
Must be talking about the MCU
+Nathan Wall Shots fired.
James Upton Truth hurts
Oh, I'm right there with you. Marvel has turned some pretty iconic villains into one-dimensional villains of the week.
Nathan Wall damn...
Okay yes mostly but killmonger was so god dang good
What are your thoughts on Fake Ally/Opponents, and Fake Opponent/Allies?
I usually write the antagonist first. Much easier. That gives a reason for my hero to be who they are.
Subscribed!
I'm currently writing a novel where, for a while, it seemed like there were three antagonists (or at least, I couldn't decide which of them was the 'main' one.) Now I'm on my third draft I'm starting to feel like the antagonist of my story is actually a 'thing' rather than a person (in this case, prejudice against the protagonist because of who she used to be) and each of these three characters opposing her represents different facets of that antagonistic 'thing.' The protagonist herself is also fighting it on an internal, self-belief level. Does that sound like it could work, or is this too intangible and I'll need to embody the entire theme in a single, Antagonist Character?
My antagonist is my favorite character, and was never an afterthought. I really liked him whilst outlining and drafting, then fell in love while editing, which is why he’s got way more scenes in later drafts (he and my protagonist have a close working relationship).
My antagonists tend to become full on POV characters. ^^; I like them too much. But, they don't get as much "screen time" as the protagonists of course, but still they tend to pop up often enough. Or be mentioned if not physically present. They're super important.
I’ve been brainstorming a story about a superhero who has an antagonist named Mr. Delight. He’s a homeless veteran that comes across a medallion that not only deages him significantly, but produces this sort of aura around him that makes him very persuasive and manipulative. He quickly climbs the crime ladder, taking the place of a different crime boss and eventually assumes the name Mr. Delight or just Delight. He’s fluent in every language, and because of his military background he’s a skilled marksman and combative adversary for my main character Benjamin McCarthy (Aka Crescent). Any tips? Things that I could help improve this character? I wanna make him both an intimidating, yet almost trusting person. Someone that you could walk by and have a conversation with and not even know that he’s moving drugs and weapons throughout the city and murdering people.
My antagonist is the man. Born out of my nightmare he is the embodiment of hate. In the book the character has schizophrenia, she created the man as way to deal with her isolation. He is an abusive man, standing at about six feet tall with a raspy voice, his presence is no doubt menacing. Furthermore, his habit of following our quite young protagonist is of putting and alarming. He tells her to do bad things. Yet our protagonist does not wish him gone. As he can be friendly. But when his commands are not fulfilled he turns violent. Reportedly he pushed her head against the wall, and aimed a gun at her head. She tried to run into a car to escape the man. The fact that he often stands in the shadows waiting, and hits and yells at her if she doesn’t do what he asks makes him a generally scary antagonist. However, the most unsealing part of the man is that exist only in the mind of the protagonist. There constant interaction caused her to attempt murder. The inspiration for such a figure was a mere work of poetry.
I was walking when upon my stare
I saw a little man who wasn’t there.
He wasn’t there again to day
Oh how I wish he’d go away.
Your shirt is so CUUUTE! ❤️
There are many Videos about antagonists, but among them little content on antagonists that are a whole system of ideas rather than centered about a single Person, the Kind of sociopolitical evil in which even the Protagonist is involved. I would really appreciate it if you have advice on that.
I need help with my paper with school!!!BTW I'm in middle school. So I'm trying to write a story (maxed pg) that's scary. So it about a guy and an insane man gets out of an aclyome and the insane man is kind of messing with him. That makes the main charater thinks his paranoid. And I don't know what to write, next.
What about a psychopathic character (not an exe murderer)? I have a psychopathic character in my story. He is best friend of MC. But my problem is how to develop that character. He cannot emotionally evolve. So, how to make him positive till end.
Writing antagonists is one of my more favorite things to do lol I love delving into their minds.
I just want my readers to feel like the character is actually real, and somehow close to them, i want him to be so scary that they'd actually fear him even after reading the book.
Do you guys have any advice on writing an unexpected villain? The kind of villain that keeps the reader/viewer in strong uncomfortable tension because they don't know what the villain will do next every time they're seen on screen? Any ideas?
I'm a visual learner hope you can put example on the screen in the future very helpful
Speaking of protagonists, have you seen Jessica Jones; and if so, what do you think about Kilgrave?
Well said! Thx for this video :D
Can you discuss how to write a good abstract antagonist?
Watching this, I realized that all of my antagonists share one common belief: the world isn't a nice place. If you want something, you have to take it, and no one is going to help you along the way. It's dog eat dog, and someone is going to win and someone is going to lose and all you can do, is make sure you turn out on top. No one is going to pick you up when you fall. You're on you're own.
And my protagonist is the proof that that's a lie. And so are the many other people from every walk of life she interacts with. A convenience store owner, a lawyer, a scientist, a homeless man, a fast food worker, a marketplace owner, fans at a comic con, a police officer. She met them all because they were willing to help pick her up from a dark place, and she was willing to help them.
In a way, I guess that's what the hidden message of the story was all along. There are still good people in this world, more than you could imagine. Just reach out. You'll find them, and they'll find you.
Wait is it normal for me to not even realize the actual message of my own stories? Is that normal?
What about when your antagonists goal isn't necessarily the Protag, but instead someone else, but by removing the Protag they can then get to the person they really want?