Cheers, Quinn - I love your channel man and I also love Merphy's. I'm kind of in her boat at the moment having read Dune only one time but definitely feel that I will read it at least a few more times. Not to mention that I've only read the first book.
The best line from Herbert was at a college talk. "I wrote the Dune series because I had this idea that charismatic leaders ought to come with a warning label on their forehead: May be dangerous to your health." It beautifully sums up what its about. Paul, with all his foresight still makes decisions that put billions in jeopardy. The horrors of purposefully placed prophecy that can and will be exploited and what its followers might do despite the wishes of those they follow.
"What do you think the hero of your favourite sci-fi/fantasy series gets up to between books 1 and 2?" "Kills every living thing on 90 planets, enacts brutal terror campaigns against another 500 planets, and exterminates 40 different religions down to the last man, woman and child. Total deaths: 61 billion."
"Err. What about between books 2 and 3?" "Wanders the desert as a blind exile." "Oh, the people depose him and punish him for his crimes?" "Haha, no, they love him and worship him as the greatest man who ever lived." "... Do I even want to ask about books 3 and 4?" "He's dead by then, but his bastard son rules the universe with an iron fist for 3'500 years as an immortal god-tyrant, stifling trade and creative expression, and enacting elaborate breeding programs." "Wow." "It's okay though, it was all for the greater good."
Yes, he hated populists. And he is right. People tend to trust those who seem more like us. Politicians are aware of this and some of them - the craftiest and most cunning - are able to emulate that, but keep to their essence.
I read this series out of order. Read the last book first, but could still understand alot since it felt more like reading events of a real place not a story. Then found books 3 then 2, then finally read book 1. But because I didn't read it in order, I never saw Paul as a hero.
It was kind of ironically interesting reading Dr. Yueh’s agonised internal monologue, knowing that history would remember him as a treacherous monster to the point that there would be children’s songs about how villainous he was.
The betrayal you mention in the book was considered impossible due to mental conditioning the character had that was supposed to prevent him from ever doing any harm under any circumstances. Even the people who managed to override his programming weren't sure how they did it.
I take it that the Dr. was able to tell himself that the Atridies coulnd't beat the Harkonnens, so the best he could do was help the duke get revenge with his last breath.
SPOILER: That actually kind of bugged me on my reading, because "people with this conditioning are incapable of betrayal or harm UNLESS YOU KIDNAP AND THREATEN THEIR LOVED ONES" doesn't seem like deep or powerful anti-betrayal conditioning to me. Holding someone's spouse hostage is a pretty classic way of forcing them to do horrible things. It's like having a superhero whose weakness is "weapons".
Like, I have to wonder -- has anybody else figured out that Suk conditioning has this incredibly ordinary weakness? Are the Harkonnens REALLY the first people to realize this worked? If his weakness was something really obscure like the Harkonnens discovered some kind of hypnotic command word that let them break the conditioning and give him new orders, THAT I could understand, so the Atreides think he can't betray them but then there's some secret they couldn't possibly have known about. But this? A random mugger or a home invader could figure this weakness out.
This is quite an interesting take, I personally absolutely adored the writing style and inner monologue. It gave all the social interactions and scheming so much spice.
The first time I read Dune, I loved it so much, that when I picked up Dune Messiah after finishing it, I only read like 10 pages and I felt that I HAD to re-read Dune because I “hadn’t enjoyed it enough”, and went back immediately, like when you’re listening to a song you love, and you have to repeat it because you weren’t really all into it and now you owe it a second listen... and a third... Dune is really a masterpiece of literature, not just of fantasy and sci fi. But at the same time, I understand completely when someone doesn’t adore it like us Muad’Dib cultists, it’s a really unconventional book, just like Paul is an unconditional antihero. Thanks for your review!
I felt exactly the same way - reading the subsequent Dune novels just made me want to re-read Dune. Except for God-Emperor of Dune. That's the only one I re-read regularly, along with my yearly re-read of Dune itself.
As someone who loves Frank Herberts writing style and dune saga, I find your review and thoughts very fair. Thanks for sharing your perspective. Funny thing, that you mentioned "The Silmarillion". There is the "The Dune Encyclopedia" (a 1984 collection of essays about the world) which serves a very similar goal. I agree that the books are more about the philosophical discussion than the actual story itself. Although I love the characters (and the ways the story moves in unpredictable ways). I love Frank Herberts writing style but my favourite author is Umberto Eco (Foucault's Pendulum, The Name Of The Rose) , who founded and developed one of the most important approaches in contemporary semiotics, usually referred to as interpretative semiotics, and is also known for his very complicated writing style and philosophical approach to his novels. So Frank Herberts approach to writing might be just my cup of tea. The use of inner monologue is for sure the most controversial decision concerning the writing style in Dune. I like it but also think that it is better utilized in the following books. Many of the concepts, the world and the discussions Herberts wants to have, become more clear in the following books of the saga. To really understand what Frank Herbert tries to accomplish you have to complete at least "Children of Dune" (the 3rd book), which is not as daunting as you might think since Book 2 is fairly short. Book 1 is more an introduction into the world and a foundation for the following saga. It has also the most traditional "adventure" story in the series. For example in "God Emperor of Dune" (the 4th book), Frank Herbert analyzes the cyclical patterns of human society, as well as humanity's evolutionary drives. It has barely any story (or action) in it and consists mostly of philosophical discussions between the characters. So Dune definitly isn't for everyone. I find it highly fascinating. Sadly Frank Herbert died before he could finish the last book in the series. Decades later his sun Brian Herbert tried to finish the saga together with author Kevin J. Anderson partially based of Frank Herberts notes. They also wrote new books (like a prequel trilogy), but all these books are sadly rather shallow and no comparison to the depth in Frank Herberts original series. I can only suggest to ignore these. Dune ended for me with Frank Herberts last book in the saga, "Chapterhouse: Dune". Luckily it serves as good enough of a ending to be at least somewhat satisfying.
@t acitus... You can buy the Dune Encyclopedia second hand on Amazon. But it is expensive. If you don't mind having it on ebook, just follow the link: epdf.pub/the-dune-encyclopedia-the-complete-authorized-guide-and-companion-to.html But be aware the encyclopedia is not canon. It was written when Frank Herbert was alive. He even read it and congratulate the author, but he always made it clear there are stuff in there that take a different path from his vision of the Dune universe.
@@joaolcbarros IIRC Herbert basically said in an introduction or preamble or preceeding comment or something "The book has my blessing. It's canon. Until it's not". Therefore personally I consider it canon above the BH stuff which is a discussion for another day...
@@viciousantelopes22 Yes because anyone male who says anything remotely positive about a woman must be a "simp." What a coherent and healthy worldview /s
Nailed it! I'm 60 pages in and the writing is intense. The word usage, and the plot building... I've never read a book so slowly in my life! Constantly looking up words. I'm annotating this book, and I don't do that with other books. I feel this book should be a must read for highschool, if not for the vocabulary, but the thought provoking content.
I’ve read Dune 3 times in my life so far Once in Afghanistan and once in Oman so I absolutely absorbed how it would feel to be isolated on a desert planet Love the book and the series that continued
@@jameswitts3793 I never said you were. I'm just lamenting the fact that such a rich cultural region is only reduced to "ooh it has oil" kind of like everyone's like "ooh it has the spice" without appreciating the rich history and culture there.
I'm so glad you picked up on Paul not being "the chosen one" heck he's not the chosen one three times over (breeding, freeman, and mentat). He fears what he is. He looses so much of his humanity. It is a great deconstruction of the troupe.
i always thought a great part of the narrative was it was the first book to really deal with what a 'chosen one' really means to the world he's supposed to save, and how naive it is to think such a thing would be painless
I think this is one of the most intelligent, in-depth, and meticulous reviews you've done in awhile. I really hope you end up seeing the 2020 movie adaptation by Denis Villeneuve. Maybe seeing the story adapted for modern audiences will give you another valuable perspective 🎥
“Respected it more than I loved it” precisely sums up my feelings while reading DUNE decades ago, after much cajoling on the part of a student teacher at my junior high school. I still feel much the same way to this day. If memory serves, part of my initial reaction was due to thwarted expectations - based on the cover artwork and jacket copy I was expecting a “Swiss Family Robinson”-style tale of survival on a forbidding alien world, rather than the heady blending of retro-future politics, technology and religion that I got. But Herbert’s clunky prose style, particularly with respect to the interior monologues, also didn’t help. (A Harvard Lampoon parody published in the early Seventies had the Duke reflecting “He must indeed be my son, else I would belt him for offmouthing thus.”) In fact, DUNE is a perfect example of what Kurt Vonnegut meant when he talked about science fiction authors who couldn’t write great prose to save their lives, and yet were the only people to take up topics like the impact of technology that were really worth writing about.
The thing about Dune is that it's obsessed with culture and evolution. Whereas Tolkien created a world inspired by languages, Herbert created worlds inspired by the evolution of religions and those who wish to control the course of human evolution. The Dune universe is about control. It's also about the rabid hype that follows influencers and the skeletons in their closets. Long story short, in my opinion, the story itself (ascension to a throne with political intrigue) isn't quite as engrossing without the context.
Just as much as it is about control, it is about how control is ultimately impossible. Every controller is in itself controlled by his sorroundings. The day the flesh shapes, the flesh the day shapes.
@@karandras2854 AH! You are a trilogy fellow. There seem to be generally 4 types of Dunies: 1. 'First book is a great standalone. The rest is out of my headcanon' 2.'First three books are a great trilogy. The rest sucks, better foget it.' 3.'The five Frank books are great, Brian can suck my butthole' 4.'I read all 36 of them, Oh my god. I especially love the Dr. Yueh Holiday special, where he hangs out with Gurney and hooks up with those galacian girls for some pearls. This adds soo much to the story.' I used to be a no.1 after i got bored with Dune Messiah. Now i'm upgrading to a no. 2. I guess, you are just a no. 2. . You are not alone buddy. I think 2s are the biggest group.
@@tgiacin435 That's essentially Herbert's whole point. Spoilers: Paul sees this eventually. He ascends to lead the Fremen, to take back his family's legacy, but even he can see this might not be a good thing. He knows at some level that the Fremen will become fanatics, and that billions will die because of that fanaticism. Considering that his son eventually becomes the worst tyrant that ever existed, he has reason to worry.
We also have to keep in mind Dune was originally published in segments in an auto repair magazine. So that could explain the over explaining of some aspects.
@@Bellsprouts69 There is also the channel "A Story of Ice and Fire" It started out as a Game of Thrones channel, but it branched out into the Dune and Foundation series. there is a lot of information on that channel.
I’m surprisingly early so I’ll use this opportunity. Merphy, your videos are always excellent and I love your in-depth reviews on genres and books, keep doing what you’re doing!
Your videos are escapism 😊 I have to say that just listening to you talk in such detail and with such passion is really calming, and helps calm anxious feelings ☺️ thanks for your work.
8:45 I think sharing "the betrayers" thoughts in that conversation scene was Herbert's way of teaching the reader more about the Bene Gessarit's and their abilities than it was in sharing "the betrayers" thoughts. Rather than Herbert telling us all about the bene gessarit and their abilities, he shows us how on edge a simple conversation with one can make someone who seeks to betray them and their family. It also shows the reader that they aren't infallible. Before that scene, I found myself thinking, "Well, why didn't they know this, or that already if they're a bene gessarit?" But after that scene, and seeing how their abilities can be subverted, I no longer asked myself that question. Idk, that was my interpretation on the "sharing of thoughts" anyway. Cheers!
Great addition. Subconciously I knew throughout the book that Bene Gesserit women weren't just lie detectors that you couldn't get passed, Bene Gesserit could also be tricked or betrayed. Even though I didn't pick up on it until you laid it out here, that chapter probably helped me form that belief about Jessica and other Bene Gesserit. Even later in the book, Reverend Mothers like Mohiam are not infallible.
Dune is one of my favourite Si-Fi series but I find that the first book is just an introduction (despite being very long) nd the depth of what Franck Herbert was trying to do shines in the 4th book (God Emperor of Dune). Another Si-Fi series that I really love is Hyperion Cantos by Dan Simmons, mostly the first 2 books Hyperion and The Fall of Hyperion, really fascinating stories and concepts.
I mean to be honest you really have to read the entire series to fully understand what he was trying to do say but I do understand why a lot of people stop at God emperor it goes from deep and nuanced to extremely deep and extremely nuanced in chapter House and heretics (I had to read the last two books a few times before I fully understood them) it's also important to note that Frank Herbert died before finishing the series so I'm guessing we don't fully know what he was trying to say with his masterpiece
finally my people who recognize god emperor of dune 's greatness. in my opinion its his most profound work . Leto as a character is so complex and his emotions so tragic . the idea of leto being both the most human person to exist while also being the most inhuman.
@@mmilo131 Leto is the most incredible character ever written in fiction. He is absolutely the most tragic, heroic, horrible, saintly, demonic, and yes human character I have ever read. The prescience trap is truly horrifying.
So I also just read Dune for the first time, literally finished just yesterday. I was a little wary as so many people seem to say they can't get into it or don't like Herbert's writing style. I respect that opinion, but I also didn't have that experience at all. I loved it! I will say that you said you thought it might be better reading it with a super-fan or a course, Comicbookgirl19 here on TH-cam has done a Dune Club for the first two books and she is one of those people. I watched a few of them and she does a great job breaking down some of what is going on, gives you some background on Frank Herbert, how the book came together, some of the core philosophies Herbert infused into Dune, etc. It helped understand some things that weren't explained that well like Yueh's conditioning and why people refused to believe he would betray anyone. I don't think this is a perfect book because what I had the most trouble on was picturing some of the scenes in the desert and caves in book 2 and 3, but I found myself lost in thought on philosophy, ethics of power, and how easily people can be manipulated. Not for everyone, but worth a try.
Dune is a book about ecology, metaphysics, political systems, economics, and messianic religion, all dressed-up as a science fictional entertainment. It was written as a sort-of Aesop's fable for the Sixties audience, as all of those things were what was uppermost in almost everyone's minds. So you are spot-on, Merph, that Frank Herbert's agenda in writing this novel extends beyond telling a straightforward story, and is more about educating people on the world around them, at the time. And in all of his succeding Dune novels, he developes these ideas further, the difference being that these millenia-spanning novels become more intricate and involving, story-wise, and he puts most of the weight for examining the issues raised into the capable hands of Princess Irulan, among others, and the blurbs they offer before each chapter. Blah, blah, blah -- I didn't mean to get so overly verbose in telling you that as a diehard fan of the Duniverse, I really, really appreciated your honest, well-though-out review. Dune isn't everyones cup of sappho juice, nor does it have to be. But I am glad that you recognise the importance of this book. Thanks for that.
My daughter and I viewed together. This was our first time watching you. We are choosing a book series for study. Dune ended up on the short list, along with Hyperion and The Hitchiker's five-part trilogy. Thanx for the different kind of review. It was refreshing to hear about the writing and not just content.
I always love to see people read Dune for the first time. Dune is weird, either you get it or you don't. The only way to know if Dune is for you or not is, to read Dune.
This book being one of my favorites, the first time I read this, I quit reading it even before finishing the first chapter. The new and strange concepts, strange words, were all kind of overwhelming. But I decided to sit down and read no matter what and my god. Lets just say that I really am glad that I did.
Ive been watching the Reading Dune podcast on youtube as a companion guide to the book after i read a chapter. Helps me catch things I miss in the story and provides a discussion on the reading.
I believe that Dune makes a lot more sense after you've read Dune Messiah and Children of Dune. Some of the characters and developments in those books really provide that additional world building. Then when you go back, things like Yueh's betrayal being seen as truly impossible make more sense.
This review is the only one on the whole Internet I could find that balanced both praise and criticism, while also not summarizing the book. I read the book and enjoyed it, but everything you said was relatable and a niggling feeling I had. Thanks
Merphy, thank you for reviewing Dune. I'm a Dune nut. I fell in love with the Movie as a kid. Because of horrible dyslexia I have never read a physical book. When I found out about Audiobooks at 18 Dune was the first book I listened to. Since then I've listened to thousands of books. Dune is and will always be my favorite book. I have every book in the series. All six of Frank Herbert's and all 14 of Brian Herbert and Kevin J Anderson's contributions to the universe. I always wanted more at the beginning of Dune. You jump straight into that story with so much untold. Brian and Kevin have written 3 book prequel books that lead up to Paul's birth. Then they also jumped back 10000 years to tell the vary beginnings of the story. Like I said I'm a nut. I'm glad you liked Dune I hope you give the rest of the series a go.
I watched this review a couple of years ago, and just watched it for the second time and this is a wonderfully worded review, that is as interesting to listen to as reading a good story. What an intelligent person you seem, with great observation skills and the focus to pull insight from a book that obliterates my general engagement levels with a story. Being easy on the ears and eyes does not hurt the review either. Superb.
I discovered the joy of re-reading Dune way back when I realized the last three books had never been translated, so I re-read the first three to read the last three. And I've since re-read the saga every 5-7 years. Every time I discover new aspects of the story; get lost in side-stories I glossed over last time. It's the mark of an amazing story, that it grows with you. :)
I'm reading Dune for the first time right now, and my feelings on the book are really similar to yours. There's so much thought-provoking, well-written, well-thought-out ideas and concepts, and then there's all the internal monologues that just don't sit right with me. But even though they sometimes really annoy me, I'm really enjoying the book as a whole.
I am glad you picked up on how the book is not a savior trope. And yes, you will get more every time. The book is a anti-trope story and a cautionary tale. The rest of the series lays this out. Hope you see the movie! (edit format issue)
I'm reading the books now, on book 2. I'm more fascinated with the ideas of how people have cognitively evolved in the next several thousand years than the plot. And I do truly enjoy that aspect. But at best the narrative is a thought study on how peoples make and destroy their own heroes and prophets; the plot itself is merely serviceable.
The plot being merely serviceable is a product of modern storytelling. The book is old. At the time it was written, the story was groundbreaking in a lot of ways, and alongside other writers like Asimov, Clarke, Banks, Moor, Gunn, Pohl, Chandler, Brown (and a few more), it set up the very foundations of modern science fiction and storytelling. The genre has evolved and the mantle since passed on to a newer and modern generation of storytellers that have the breadth and wealth of past works to draw upon. I would argue that in it's own context, the plot transcends servicability and becomes the proper conduit for which the ideas have been presented without the need or pretence to be bigger or greater than how people would act/react/take action on behalf of the knowledge and culture presented there. Reading fresh from today, it falls short of how we want or expect our material to be presented to us.
i personally found the narration/ inner monologue (what you took issue with) to be one of the more riveting aspects of the book! It shows that these humans have become so aware and conscious of behavior that every single conversation has become a chess game to them. That chapter in the arakeen dining room was more exciting than any fight scene in the book imo haha.
Merphy, the main reason I enjoy you and your channel is that I relate with a lot of your feelings regarding many genres I like, and with Dune was no different. What I appreciated the most about this novel are the concepts, the philosophy, and the environment; way more than the plot itself, and I have a huge respect for Herbert, how he inserted these discussion themes into the story. Honestly, I did not enjoy a bunch of characters, and I felt their lore was quite shallow, with the plot being the factor for the themes I previously mentioned. You did an amazing review, and I expect to read this book in the future, with a new perspective.
I read whole series few times, and i love it. How to read Dune series: Pay attention to keywords related to RELIGION and POLITICS. When such a key word is encountered, go back half page or sometimes whole page and reread it slowly, lots of things is just implied, so pay attention to deeper implications. This book series is about mechanics of politics, mechanics of religion and mechanics of military power, how those 3 mechanics interplay and also devastating effects of politics on human lives. In other words it is a political science or a political philosophy textbook in a form on novel series. (From Your review i see that You get it, but You are struggling with finding words to express it). Fremen are not snowflakes :-)
Dune has a special place for me, I read it when I was still rather young (it was at that time the largest book I had read), during a hot summer and I made my first attempts at cooking on my own (and of course I put cinnamon in everything because of this book). Still, I am not angry at this review, I actually like people discovering this book, and I really hope Villeneuve will do it justice and that his film version will draw also more people in.
Great review!! Just some thoughts, surrounding the internal dialogue. As someone fascinated by psychology and criminal psychology, I found these fascinating. For example the betrayal and how much yuhe thinks about it. It's all consuming to him, versus how clueless everyone else seems to be. I feel like in real life people who say they never saw things coming are much like Jessica and Paul and criminals are a lot like yueh. I took that as a glimpse into their thought process and how these things can happen when we all think they're unthinkable.
That's only half true, the time line is simply longer I think. The details of stuff like the Butlarian jihad are unimportant, as the effects are really the important take away from historical events like that.
@@Shinigami13133 @jarrod nash Butlerian Jihad is important in explaining why computers are not allowed so much so on a religious level. It's considered sin & heresy to create computers. Therefore we have Mentats("super" human calculators memory & knowledge holders)in the Universe. It shows the amount of world building behind the ideas FH was trying to get across. AI technology is evil and will inhibit natural human evolution.
"This is a story that I feel like I could read a thousand times, and each time come out with new interpertations and discussion pieces, and pieces of the world, even though I'm reading the same text over and over again." That's what I like to call, "old-fashion sci-fi". It's not about great impressions and "look how this character is cool" or "check my not-magic system!" (though you had some of those as well, especially Heinlein) but rather about "still waters run deep". This is from the psychedelic-experimental writing, where a story was more about exploring ideas, and less about plot and payoffs, etc. Others for example: Kurt Vonnegut, Phillip K. Dick, Ray Bradbury. You could also find some that later became movies: The Thing, Silent Running, Logan's Run, Annhilation, Solaris (1976 - also a great book), Moon, Naked Launch, etc.
I appreciate your take on Dune as the first time reader that you are. You mentioned that you felt there were a lot of concepts you probably didn’t catch. Don’t feel bad about that; that is one the amazing things about this book. You can go back and re-read it time and again, and catch nuances and themes you had previously overlooked. I hope you re-re-re-read it and get the full enjoyment out of it. Then you can do a update vlog on it. Cheers.
He who controls the spice controls the universe Kudos to Merphy for refraining from saying spice melange. I still don't know how she did it but it is quite the fun word to say.
Hi Merphy! Your comment about the heavy internal thoughts is so true and a definite trait of Dune. So much so that when Lynch made the movie adaptation (which I love as much as the book), he did tons of voice-overs to replicate that same vibe in the book. Great review, your perspective is always refreshing!
Probably my favorite book of all time, even after sixteen read throughs I still get so much out of it more than any other novel. The next five are just as poigniant, particularly God Emperor of Dune. It's the only series where I whipped out a notebook to write down quotes as I was reading and still go back to them over 20 years after the first read. Phenomenal stuff
The problem is the guy who betrayed him basically had a certificate saying that was impossible. The reason this keeps getting reiterated is to show how much they blindly trusted the certification. I think this is a critique that even a person in a benevolent authority position could be turned for personal reason. It will be interesting to see how the new movie handles all this internal dialogue. I doubt they will do voice overs like David Lynch again.
That's an interesting thing to read into it. Makes me think of Bryan Caplan's The Case Against Education. Still, I don't think it's fair to dismiss the Atreides trust in Wellington Yueh as a garden-variety case of credentialism. Over thousands of years, no one had ever managed to subvert a Suk doctor's conditioning. It really was an extraordinary feat, marking Baron Vladimir as possibly the greatest purveyor of perversion and corruption who ever lived. Perhaps the lesson is that, on rare occasions, even things which have always been true may no longer be true?
I definitely feel you with this review, I had the same issues with the book as you did. His writing style is so unique but does sometimes feel repetitive with how he covers the same ground over and over with internal thoughts but damn if I don't love the book. Its just such a fascinating world that Frank has created you can't help but be pulled into it and want to go deeper into its his message and the themes throughout.
I often wonder if the way it was written is indicative of when it was written: the way that Herbert portrays the story reminds me of The Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula LeGuin which, I think, was written within a few years of Dune. They both focus more on the philosophical nature of their universes rather than the action.
Yes... Yes... YES! As someone how loves "Dune" and "The Left Hand of Darkness" never crossed my mind that this two books have some similarities. Thanks for bringing this to the light!
I've debated reading Dune for a couple of years now, and I think I'd have to be in the mood for it, but your review has finally convinced me I need to pick it up at some point!
There is an encyclopedia for dune that dose detail the history of Dune. For anyone just getting into the Dune series just a couple of things to be aware of. Books 1,2, and 3 are one arch and the books after that the 3rd book assume that you read them. Also the books written by Brain Herbert the son of Frank Herbert are divisive in the Dune community as to whether they should be canon or not.
They should not, they are incompatible, brian and kevin visibly misunderstood the Buttlerian Jihad. Frank Jihad was because men where using machine too much they where becoming compleasant and they believed it stopped human evolution because we did not struggle anymore, Brian they where literally fighting Skynet
I think the "Betrayal scenes" were trying to show how reluctant and well trusted the Betrayer was. It may have been over the top, but I always saw it as a way to convey how guilty they felt about it, like really bad, really really bad, bad bad, really bad bad lol, and that they were so trusted someone could tell the victim that this person would decapitate them and the response would be, "Oh, dear. I must will have contracted gangrene and they had to amputate to save me." It was a way to build tension, but more importantly is was a crisis of identity for the person involved and was the only thing they could ever think of, it consumed them.
IMO, one of the coolest things Herbert did in Dune was almost entirely negate guns, bombs, etc. by the introduction of shield technology. At the time, I was just discovering European fencing and Japanese kendo, so it was so awesome to discover a sci-fi universe in which sword fighting was relevant once again, and not just in personal duels and such.
i appreciated the simultaneous hand-holding, as well as the gradual unfolding of information, such to the point that you're still not even sure if what you just read was important rather than just a throwaway line or something. and as far as hearing the character's thoughts about their betrayal of someone else.... i think you're supposed to read that as a LITERAL display of that person's thoughts.. i mean, think about it. you're in a very high-stress situation where you have to make DAMN sure someone doesn't know a thing you're planning (think of a surprise birthday party, for instance). that stuff is going to be on your mind, A LOT. we just got the literal transcription, beat for beat, of that person's thought process. in today's literary scene? yes, that's risky as hell, and probably not something that would ever be published today. but this is back in the mid 60s that this was published, where that kind of thing was perfectly fine. and more melodramatic, oftentimes, were these kinds of things done than even Dune had done so. and people ATE IT UP. the contrast being that this was done very realistically, that, i think, is kind of what changed the game for SFF.
Also, someone's already mentioned it in the comments, but check out Quinn's Ideas here on youtube. He's made a whole series on the Dune saga that are really helpful in making sense of its contents. He's one of my favourite youtubers, too.
Thank you for such a complex spoiler free review, I was really trying to decide whether I wanted to partake in this book before lost worlds but since it seems so intricate and immersive, I’ll wait till after so I can really deep dive into the world, thanks for such a detailed review! As always you nailed it 👌🏼
Dune, a great book. Read it back in 1989....due a re-read I think as well as me going on to some of the others in the series. Keep up the good work, your vids are great.
I'm late to this comment party as I've just finished reading the six main Dune books for the first time and am currently reading The Road to Dune which seems to me, so far, to be the closest thing to a "Silmarillion for Dune" as you put it. Just wanted to say great video! You've got a new subscriber in me!
I enjoyed hearing what you thought about the book however in regards to Yueh there are several mentions of why they don't suspect him. The main thing being that he is conditioned in a way that makes him loyal and as far they know this conditioning is impossible to break.
I'm late to this discussion, but this is the best description and review of Dune that I've seen or read. So many "Dune Geeks" like me get so excited describing Dune and we get over analytical. "...the point of Dune was to discuss a lot of deeper topics, and the story was a medium to discuss, but the story itself isn't nearly as important as the discussions." Perfect description of what Frank Herbert was wanting to achieve in my opinion...I'm using that whenever I'm asked again what Dune is about!
Agree - when Paul and Jessica went into the desert that’s when I really started to enjoy it. It really irritated me that on the back of the book it tells you that Duke Leto dies which I felt like I was constantly waiting for.
The Sci-Fi mini-series got me hooked on sci-fi as a kid (10years old) as a teen an adult became my all-time favorite book series hope you stick with it at least a god emperor (I can kind of see why people lose interest after that I didn't but it's definitely understandable) as the emperor so wisely proclaimed the spice must flow lol
@@theinevitablegodemperordea4278 yeah I got to god emperor already kinda tired of the series and the fact that they kept reviving that one guy sorry it’s been a few years over and over and he wasn’t even an interesting character or important to the original plot really bothered me but I did like that Leto was a big worm
Really great review! Totally agree that the character thoughts were spelled out too much at times. But about the Atreides not suspecting Yueh... The imperial conditioning process that was needed in order to get the qualifications as a doctor in this world was about as close to a law of nature as it could be, up to that point. Yueh had been corrupted by a new technique developed by Piter, but as far as anyone else in the universe could know, imperial doctors were completely incapable of inflicting harm (and had been for thousands of years). There really wasn't any basis to suspect him, and since sleeping pills and other drugs for altering states of consciousness seem to be completely routine aspects of life for these people, used casually and frequently, that wouldn't have been seen as out of the ordinary at all. I guess it could be said that they should have just assumed Yueh couldn't be trusted because they had no proof that he could be. But I think it's pretty realistic that in a world of such uncertainty and betrayal, they'd latch onto and fully trust this one figure that represented the immovability of their empire. The way I saw it was that the houses were playing a game, and the rules had been clearly set out before them. Some things were simply out of bounds, and imperial conditioning was one of these things, until Piter broke the game
You summed up my thoughts precisely. Due to the bad writing (or writing that irritated me more than I would like) I believe I lost a lot of what the book was trying to convey :( I am considering reading it in a translation, maybe it will read better.
I have just finished reading Dune & I totally agree with your point of view! I'm glad that I found other people sharing my good vs. bad arguments regarding this book.
Well, the betrayal is what's on his mind all the time and keeping it from her is a constant walk on a razor's edge. I guess him not appearing at all would be the only way to stop repeating his thoughts ^^ And nobody is suspicious of him because he literally can't hurt anyone.
Late to the party but I felt I should point out that the betrayor is an early introduction to a common theme in Herbert's Dune: Humanity's frequent overtrust in institutional promises.
I had a similar experience with Dune. I also read the second book which is quite short so I found it strange that there's a large time jump from the end of book 1 to the end of book 2. I get the feeling Herbert wanted to tell a great story but really didn't like writing. It's a cultural phenomenon that I guess you kinda had to be there at the time to fully appreciate. After book 2 I'm indifferent about finishing the trilogy and unlikely to begin the 2nd trilogy. But i did just start WOT and it doesn't seem like the author had a problem writing at all. 😂
First off, I love your review! Really honest and insightful commentary! About your problems with the betrayal plot and the general "let me tell you what every character is thinking" omnipresent style, I definitely found it jarring the first time I read Dune, but now I think that Herbert wrote his characters that way intentionally. An important aspect of the Dune universe is that it's in a way a hyper-advanced version of a medieval, feudalistic society. Imagine the constant fear and paranoia of living in a culture where every person must be addressed correctly at all times, where every sentence must be phrased just right or you might insult someone, and anyone around you could be a spy gathering information for your most hated enemies, but now add in the sci-fi concepts of people who can read every single micro-expression that passes over your face or compel you to obey them with a word. I think the reason the characters in Dune can feel so stiff or formal, and the reason that Herbert explicitly tells us their inner thoughts, is that they are almost always in situations where they are unable to show their true feelings and must instead, in the name of self-preservation, restrict their every word an action.
Read Dune series years back, and revisited them all on audio before the movie came out. My son is currently reading the first book and is loving it. So glad you had a pretty good reaction to it. Also... this is the perfect example of a book series not going the way you are expecting it to!
Just watched the 2021 movie of Dune. I immediately told my friends, "there's no way Hollywood made a universe THIS elaborate. It's gotta be a book." Didn't expect it to be a LOOOOOONGGG A$$ series lol. I've been reading reviews that the first book can be treated as a standalone novel. With all that being said, as a newbie to the Duniverse, should I get the Movie-cover title or the Hardback Deluxe Edition with the nice artwork on the cover? Would appreciate any suggestions! 😂😂
Great review. I haven't read Dune but I have been intrigued by it. I'm still not sure if I'll end up reading it but your insights give a lot of clearity on how it was written, as well as the overall style of its story, which I really appreciate. I'm keeping this one in consideration but have a lot of other books you've turned me on to that are much higher on my want to read list. Keep up the excellent reviews. You have a great analytical mind for reviewing which is really refreshing and highly regarded in the booktubing world. Cheers
Merphy trying hard not to say "I didn't really like reading this book, but I don't want to alienate my audience". Dune is like a book with recipes - I respect the content, even though I would never read it for fun.
I get how it could have come off that way, but that's not really what I was trying to get across. It's more like, I loved the concept and discussion of this book and I'm really glad I read it, but because of certain writing choices, I didn't enjoy the process of reading it. So I'm just really mixed on how I felt about it and that's been hard for me to articulate
@@merphynapier42 With Dune I would say, It's one of those stories where once you are on the third(Children Of Dune) it just all becomes clear. One cannot judge the series without the 3rd. At least in my opinion.
ishan bajpai ugh, I hated that book. I couldn’t even finish it. I felt like Dune was Herbert’s life’s work, and every book after it was a sad a attempt at satisfying his publisher.
@@ishanbajpai6940I am SO a complete head-over-heels fan, but the 3rd book was the one I liked the least. I get what you're saying though. And I'll add that if as you say you need the 3rd book to understand the story, you need the 4th book to understand the WORLD.
I had the experience you say you wish you had: I first read Dune as a part of a book club with a superfan (Comicbookgirl 19 aka Danika XIX). I hope you keep reading the series since you loved the world so much!
It would be awesome to see you do either a spoiler review where you can go into more detail or a discussion video/podcast where you just talk about the book with someone else or others who have read it.
Read the sequels if you want more exploration and answers. I strongly encouarge you to read up until Children of Dune. At least give Dune Messiah a shot. Because Messiah is not really a new installment but rather a epilogue to the book 1. I like the sequels even more than the first one because Herbert twists the tropes that he built in the first book and gives the reader a clear understanding what was really going on. He really tried warn us about messianic figures and charismatic leaders might have done to world around us If they were given that kind of corruptable power.
Considering the density of the start of this novel. One of the (many) concepts that herbert plays with like silly putty is how context affects perspective. Consider how the fremen treat paul as a deity but we know that their entire saviour myth has been planted by the space witches. The first 50 or so pages of Dune is frank herbert telling you EXACTLY what is going to happen to the Atreides, down to the name of the traitor, but not telling you WHY it's going to happen. He does this throughout the book; action followed by set up. Man I love this book
This has never been "on my radar" but with the new film coming out, I might give it a try. Maybe. My main concern is the omnipresent narrative, I get confused easily and I feel like it could potentially confuse me.
Dune is not confusing in you can not tell who is talking and it thinking all the characters have a distinct voice. That can it can be confusing in some off the metaphysics and ecology If you are not familiar with those topics.
I don’t think it’ll be a problem. Dune explains every characters motivation, it explains every plan. Usually you know chapters ahead of time when someone is going to die or get betrayed, and the interesting part is HOW that will happen.
While I agree with the other replies, if you have a history of being confused in this way with reading books like this, my suggestion would actually be to wait for the new movie. Watch Dune Part One, then read the first half of the book (you can finish it if you prefer though), then after Dune Part Two you can read the rest. That might help you understand the flow a bit better, if you are concerned about being confused.
Oh Merphy, now you planted the idea of a Dune Silmarilion in my mind and I desperatly want one xD Loved the video, Dune is one of my favourites and I agree that it's more about the reflections and the ponderings than about the plot... I really enjoy that and I think it has some of the most insightful ideas about the dinamics of power that I've ever read. About the whole betrayal plot, MILD SPOILERS AHEAD: so the guy that betrays them (his name escapes me) has received imperial conditioning in his training, therefore it is believed he cannot lie. As a reader you kind of feel like "yeah, right" but I think Dune requires a bit more suspension of disbelief in certain moments, so you just have to go with it and try to get into the "what, but his training?! he can't possibly be liying!" wagon
If you think DUNE is one of the most fascinating books you've ever read, God Emperor of DUNE is like "hold my spice beer". It's one of the most intriguing philosophical books ever written but suffers from lack of notoriety because you need to read the books before it to really have your mind blown. It's nearly complete poetry.
I read this book last week and I understand where you are coming from Merphy, but personally I really enjoyed myself the whole way through. I must say that I was able to talk to a super fan when I had questions about the world so that probably helped make my experience more positive then yours. Also I tried annotating for the first time (I know you annotate while you read) but if I hadn't I would have been way more confused than I was.
I really love Herbert's writing style. It does have that sense of "myth" or prophecy to it. For example, when Yueh is introduced, some of his first thoughts are "man its going to suck when I betray these guys". Then we see him betray them. Then later on everyone is like "man didn't it suck when Yueh betrayed us?" we get to be not a fly on the wall, but a kind of passive god in the Dune universe, watching things play out even as we pretty much know what the end result is going to be. It's like reading the Bible. We know Judas will betray Jesus, we sit with Judas while he thinks about and laments betraying Jesus, then we see him betray Jesus and the moment still has gravity and weight even though we knew it was coming. The betrayal was also a way to comment on slavishly adhering to "known" or widely accepted information. It's "known" that the Suk conditioning "cannot be broken", so even though it's painfully obvious that Yueh is likely the traitor, to the characters, it's literally impossible to concieve of because they've bought into the popular dogma of the day. A bit of a meta-anlysis, but Yueh's betrayal is actually the only recorded case of Suk conditioning being "broken" (it was actually bent, more than broken) and even that was only due to a set of infinitely unique circumstances. In regards to the prophetic quality of the book, for example, Paul talks about his "terrible purpose", then we just watch as that terrible purpose comes to fruition. If, at the end of the book, someone were to say "holy shit I didn't see that coming", I'd wonder if we read the same book. The end is practically laid out from the beginning and the inevitability is ultimately what makes it compelling.
Your frustration with the characters not suspecting the betrayer (around 9:45) completely misses the point - no one suspected him because of their absolute belief in Suk conditioning - they thought it was a literal impossibility that he would betray them. This may seem like a plot cop-out, but I think it's quite a poignant commentary about human blind-spots with faith in processes, especially in this world Herbert created to say "here's the danger with charismatic leaders and super-humans". You filed this under not liking his writing style, but in this instance it seems more like you misunderstood the reason the characters never suspected him. Also, The Dune Encyclopedia is a thing that exists, and is basically the Silmarillion you desire. Also, you couldn't know this from your first time reading it (unless you did research first) but the 1st book isn't the full story. And I don't mean that in the sense that Dune spans 8 books, but rather that Dune wasn't actually a book. It was serially published in a magazine. So was Dune Messiah, which became the second book. They were made into books later. Dune Messiah is truly the completion of the first part of the story - it completes the arc of Muad'dib. Messiah is necessary reading in order to understand the story Herbert wanted to tell. But you're right that these books are a medium for his philosophy: "charismatic leaders should come with warning labels: may be dangerous to your health." Lastly this is just a difference of opinion, I think the world-building in Dune is first class. It's just of a different type than other media. Herbert rarely spends time describing how people or locations look, for instance. So so much of the look of things is left to your imagination. Also, it's probably the least sci-fi sci-fi story ever, despite being one of the most popular sci-fi stories. There isn't much focus on future tech. On the other hand, the ecology of Dune is incredible. The deep understanding and respect Herbert had for ecology is clearly evident. And yeah, he wanted to tell a more political and philosophical story, so the worldbuilding is much more focused on the politics of the world, and the "worlds" of the characters minds, which are interesting since their minds have evolved so much further than current-day human minds. It's still world building, just not the world building most people expect in a sci-fi story.
I do believe that Dune Messiah should complete a trilogy of Denis Villeneuve adaptations of Frank Herbert's works. Two films to comprise the first book and DM to finish the trilogy. Children of Dune can continue as a standalone film along with God-Emperor, fingers crossed. Heretics, Chapterhouse, Sandworms, and Hunters should be televised, methinks...
@@FVD That would be awesome. I already expect I'll see Dune 2020 in theaters multiple times, and I hope it gets tremendous public support so he can keep making these films.
Great review! It was very honest and open feedback from someone who isn’t too familiar with Dune. If you want to understand more, I highly recommend Quinn’s Ideas.
Im reading Dune and Merphy, you were mentioning the part of the character thinking of betraying and it was what i felt. Im liking it but i liked your vídeo a lot!👌
Hey Merph, I love your Dear Authors series!, It wasn't scattered; I actually felt you touched on many good points. I love Dune - lol, whenever my wife mentions that new movie they are putting out, I perk up like a cat with nip - but yeah, it has some problems. I've read or listened to Dune a couple of times, and I will say it felt dry in some parts. I think that the betrayal aspect of Yueh could have been done better if Herbert showed the manipulation of the man, rather than just told you repeatedly. Have a letter and the edge was smeared with his wife's blood, his hands shaking as he read the innocuous note, that sort of thing. The benefit of the show over tell style is you can blur specific motivational information, but it also allows you to empathize with a character more. Herbert was trying to do that to some extent with the bible scene, I believe. Having it stated so explicitly over and over made Yueh feel artificial; less 'loving man doing something terrible' and more 'Dr. Inciting Incident'.
The Wheel of Time influenced by Dune? I read Eye of the World before Dune and I noticed how much the premice is inspired by Dune and Lord of the Rings.
In book 4 it is even more clear. The ending even takes elements of the ending of the 1984 movie, that was not in the Dune book (and is even a little antithetical to the book).
Wow, I LOVED this video! This is a great review, very balanced and honest. Thanks for making this.
Cheers, Quinn - I love your channel man and I also love Merphy's. I'm kind of in her boat at the moment having read Dune only one time but definitely feel that I will read it at least a few more times. Not to mention that I've only read the first book.
I love your channel dude and love dune
Love your channel!
I totally agree. Her review was very fresh and honest. She’s way prettier than you too. lol
Seriously Quinn, I LOVE your channel!
Love your chanel man
The best line from Herbert was at a college talk. "I wrote the Dune series because I had this idea that charismatic leaders ought to come with a warning label on their forehead: May be dangerous to your health." It beautifully sums up what its about. Paul, with all his foresight still makes decisions that put billions in jeopardy. The horrors of purposefully placed prophecy that can and will be exploited and what its followers might do despite the wishes of those they follow.
"What do you think the hero of your favourite sci-fi/fantasy series gets up to between books 1 and 2?"
"Kills every living thing on 90 planets, enacts brutal terror campaigns against another 500 planets, and exterminates 40 different religions down to the last man, woman and child. Total deaths: 61 billion."
"Err. What about between books 2 and 3?"
"Wanders the desert as a blind exile."
"Oh, the people depose him and punish him for his crimes?"
"Haha, no, they love him and worship him as the greatest man who ever lived."
"... Do I even want to ask about books 3 and 4?"
"He's dead by then, but his bastard son rules the universe with an iron fist for 3'500 years as an immortal god-tyrant, stifling trade and creative expression, and enacting elaborate breeding programs."
"Wow."
"It's okay though, it was all for the greater good."
Dude come on SPOILER
Yes, he hated populists. And he is right. People tend to trust those who seem more like us. Politicians are aware of this and some of them - the craftiest and most cunning - are able to emulate that, but keep to their essence.
I read this series out of order. Read the last book first, but could still understand alot since it felt more like reading events of a real place not a story. Then found books 3 then 2, then finally read book 1. But because I didn't read it in order, I never saw Paul as a hero.
It was kind of ironically interesting reading Dr. Yueh’s agonised internal
monologue, knowing that history would remember him as a treacherous monster to the point that there would be children’s songs about how villainous he was.
The betrayal you mention in the book was considered impossible due to mental conditioning the character had that was supposed to prevent him from ever doing any harm under any circumstances. Even the people who managed to override his programming weren't sure how they did it.
Spoiler:
The *Power of Love*
Wretching noises follow. Honestly that may be the weakest part of the whole book.
I take it that the Dr. was able to tell himself that the Atridies coulnd't beat the Harkonnens, so the best he could do was help the duke get revenge with his last breath.
SPOILER:
That actually kind of bugged me on my reading, because "people with this conditioning are incapable of betrayal or harm UNLESS YOU KIDNAP AND THREATEN THEIR LOVED ONES" doesn't seem like deep or powerful anti-betrayal conditioning to me. Holding someone's spouse hostage is a pretty classic way of forcing them to do horrible things. It's like having a superhero whose weakness is "weapons".
Like, I have to wonder -- has anybody else figured out that Suk conditioning has this incredibly ordinary weakness? Are the Harkonnens REALLY the first people to realize this worked? If his weakness was something really obscure like the Harkonnens discovered some kind of hypnotic command word that let them break the conditioning and give him new orders, THAT I could understand, so the Atreides think he can't betray them but then there's some secret they couldn't possibly have known about. But this? A random mugger or a home invader could figure this weakness out.
@@GodotIsWaiting4U I suspect in all other cases that failed, but for some reason it didnt in the case of dr yueh
This is quite an interesting take, I personally absolutely adored the writing style and inner monologue. It gave all the social interactions and scheming so much spice.
> so much spice
Hahaha. I don't need blue eyes to see what you did there.
Same, it’s part of why I love this book
You might say the inner monlogue and the dialogue make an interesting....melange.
@@PeckiePeck Yes, you've done it!
The first time I read Dune, I loved it so much, that when I picked up Dune Messiah after finishing it, I only read like 10 pages and I felt that I HAD to re-read Dune because I “hadn’t enjoyed it enough”, and went back immediately, like when you’re listening to a song you love, and you have to repeat it because you weren’t really all into it and now you owe it a second listen... and a third...
Dune is really a masterpiece of literature, not just of fantasy and sci fi. But at the same time, I understand completely when someone doesn’t adore it like us Muad’Dib cultists, it’s a really unconventional book, just like Paul is an unconditional antihero.
Thanks for your review!
I felt exactly the same way - reading the subsequent Dune novels just made me want to re-read Dune. Except for God-Emperor of Dune. That's the only one I re-read regularly, along with my yearly re-read of Dune itself.
As someone who loves Frank Herberts writing style and dune saga, I find your review and thoughts very fair. Thanks for sharing your perspective. Funny thing, that you mentioned "The Silmarillion". There is the "The Dune Encyclopedia" (a 1984 collection of essays about the world) which serves a very similar goal. I agree that the books are more about the philosophical discussion than the actual story itself. Although I love the characters (and the ways the story moves in unpredictable ways). I love Frank Herberts writing style but my favourite author is Umberto Eco (Foucault's Pendulum, The Name Of The Rose) , who founded and developed one of the most important approaches in contemporary semiotics, usually referred to as interpretative semiotics, and is also known for his very complicated writing style and philosophical approach to his novels. So Frank Herberts approach to writing might be just my cup of tea. The use of inner monologue is for sure the most controversial decision concerning the writing style in Dune. I like it but also think that it is better utilized in the following books.
Many of the concepts, the world and the discussions Herberts wants to have, become more clear in the following books of the saga. To really understand what Frank Herbert tries to accomplish you have to complete at least "Children of Dune" (the 3rd book), which is not as daunting as you might think since Book 2 is fairly short. Book 1 is more an introduction into the world and a foundation for the following saga. It has also the most traditional "adventure" story in the series. For example in "God Emperor of Dune" (the 4th book), Frank Herbert analyzes the cyclical patterns of human society, as well as humanity's evolutionary drives. It has barely any story (or action) in it and consists mostly of philosophical discussions between the characters. So Dune definitly isn't for everyone. I find it highly fascinating. Sadly Frank Herbert died before he could finish the last book in the series. Decades later his sun Brian Herbert tried to finish the saga together with author Kevin J. Anderson partially based of Frank Herberts notes. They also wrote new books (like a prequel trilogy), but all these books are sadly rather shallow and no comparison to the depth in Frank Herberts original series. I can only suggest to ignore these. Dune ended for me with Frank Herberts last book in the saga, "Chapterhouse: Dune". Luckily it serves as good enough of a ending to be at least somewhat satisfying.
Lots of luck finding "The Dune Encyclopedia;" its OOP and Brian Herbert wants to do his own thing so it remains out of print (alledgedly).
Very interesting! Knowing that there is going to be a movie I ordered the book, I hope I’ll like it!
The Dune Encyclopedia is not canon and Frank Herbert did not write it. He did endorse it, while reserving the right to contradict it in future books.
@t acitus... You can buy the Dune Encyclopedia second hand on Amazon. But it is expensive. If you don't mind having it on ebook, just follow the link:
epdf.pub/the-dune-encyclopedia-the-complete-authorized-guide-and-companion-to.html
But be aware the encyclopedia is not canon. It was written when Frank Herbert was alive. He even read it and congratulate the author, but he always made it clear there are stuff in there that take a different path from his vision of the Dune universe.
@@joaolcbarros IIRC Herbert basically said in an introduction or preamble or preceeding comment or something "The book has my blessing. It's canon. Until it's not". Therefore personally I consider it canon above the BH stuff which is a discussion for another day...
Can we just take a moment to appreciate Merphy uploading as often as she does? Love the vids 💖💖💖
Simp
@@viciousantelopes22 Yes because anyone male who says anything remotely positive about a woman must be a "simp." What a coherent and healthy worldview /s
and she is so pretty
Those internal thoughts were one of the hurdles in translating this to a screenplay
Nailed it! I'm 60 pages in and the writing is intense. The word usage, and the plot building... I've never read a book so slowly in my life! Constantly looking up words. I'm annotating this book, and I don't do that with other books. I feel this book should be a must read for highschool, if not for the vocabulary, but the thought provoking content.
I’ve read Dune 3 times in my life so far
Once in Afghanistan and once in Oman so I absolutely absorbed how it would feel to be isolated on a desert planet
Love the book and the series that continued
Same. It doesn't sound like Merph is continuing, which is to bad. Heretics and Chapterhouse are stinkin great.
Good places to read them since I'm pretty sure the Fremen are based on Bedouin culture.
@@christopherbacon1077 yeah and America loves attacking that region for it's oil .. ahem spice
@@technicaldeathmetalhead
I'm English not American
@@jameswitts3793 I never said you were. I'm just lamenting the fact that such a rich cultural region is only reduced to "ooh it has oil" kind of like everyone's like "ooh it has the spice" without appreciating the rich history and culture there.
I'm so glad you picked up on Paul not being "the chosen one" heck he's not the chosen one three times over (breeding, freeman, and mentat). He fears what he is. He looses so much of his humanity. It is a great deconstruction of the troupe.
And it's taken to its logical conclusion in Dune Messiah and Children of Dune.
i always thought a great part of the narrative was it was the first book to really deal with what a 'chosen one' really means to the world he's supposed to save, and how naive it is to think such a thing would be painless
I think this is one of the most intelligent, in-depth, and meticulous reviews you've done in awhile. I really hope you end up seeing the 2020 movie adaptation by Denis Villeneuve. Maybe seeing the story adapted for modern audiences will give you another valuable perspective 🎥
@DM Animation Yay! 😍😍😍
Man I'm so excited for the dune movie! Bladerunner 2049 was freaking incredible so it makes me happy same guy is doing dune
“Respected it more than I loved it” precisely sums up my feelings while reading DUNE decades ago, after much cajoling on the part of a student teacher at my junior high school. I still feel much the same way to this day. If memory serves, part of my initial reaction was due to thwarted expectations - based on the cover artwork and jacket copy I was expecting a “Swiss Family Robinson”-style tale of survival on a forbidding alien world, rather than the heady blending of retro-future politics, technology and religion that I got. But Herbert’s clunky prose style, particularly with respect to the interior monologues, also didn’t help. (A Harvard Lampoon parody published in the early Seventies had the Duke reflecting “He must indeed be my son, else I would belt him for offmouthing thus.”) In fact, DUNE is a perfect example of what Kurt Vonnegut meant when he talked about science fiction authors who couldn’t write great prose to save their lives, and yet were the only people to take up topics like the impact of technology that were really worth writing about.
The thing about Dune is that it's obsessed with culture and evolution. Whereas Tolkien created a world inspired by languages, Herbert created worlds inspired by the evolution of religions and those who wish to control the course of human evolution. The Dune universe is about control. It's also about the rabid hype that follows influencers and the skeletons in their closets. Long story short, in my opinion, the story itself (ascension to a throne with political intrigue) isn't quite as engrossing without the context.
Leaders should come with a warning: may be dangerous to your health.
Just as much as it is about control, it is about how control is ultimately impossible. Every controller is in itself controlled by his sorroundings.
The day the flesh shapes, the flesh the day shapes.
It's me or the last two books sucks?
@@karandras2854 AH! You are a trilogy fellow.
There seem to be generally 4 types of Dunies:
1. 'First book is a great standalone. The rest is out of my headcanon'
2.'First three books are a great trilogy. The rest sucks, better foget it.'
3.'The five Frank books are great, Brian can suck my butthole'
4.'I read all 36 of them, Oh my god. I especially love the Dr. Yueh Holiday special, where he hangs out with Gurney and hooks up with those galacian girls for some pearls. This adds soo much to the story.'
I used to be a no.1 after i got bored with Dune Messiah. Now i'm upgrading to a no. 2.
I guess, you are just a no. 2. . You are not alone buddy. I think 2s are the biggest group.
@@tgiacin435 That's essentially Herbert's whole point.
Spoilers:
Paul sees this eventually. He ascends to lead the Fremen, to take back his family's legacy, but even he can see this might not be a good thing. He knows at some level that the Fremen will become fanatics, and that billions will die because of that fanaticism. Considering that his son eventually becomes the worst tyrant that ever existed, he has reason to worry.
We also have to keep in mind Dune was originally published in segments in an auto repair magazine. So that could explain the over explaining of some aspects.
Merphy: I need a Silmarillion for Dune
Me, a Dune stan: *I DIDN'T KNOW I NEEDED THAT, BUT I DO*
@@Bellsprouts69 There is also the channel "A Story of Ice and Fire" It started out as a Game of Thrones channel, but it branched out into the Dune and Foundation series. there is a lot of information on that channel.
Read the legends of dune series... Explained a lot, not as good writing ,but amazingly entertaing.
I’m surprisingly early so I’ll use this opportunity.
Merphy, your videos are always excellent and I love your in-depth reviews on genres and books, keep doing what you’re doing!
Your videos are escapism 😊 I have to say that just listening to you talk in such detail and with such passion is really calming, and helps calm anxious feelings ☺️ thanks for your work.
8:45 I think sharing "the betrayers" thoughts in that conversation scene was Herbert's way of teaching the reader more about the Bene Gessarit's and their abilities than it was in sharing "the betrayers" thoughts. Rather than Herbert telling us all about the bene gessarit and their abilities, he shows us how on edge a simple conversation with one can make someone who seeks to betray them and their family. It also shows the reader that they aren't infallible. Before that scene, I found myself thinking, "Well, why didn't they know this, or that already if they're a bene gessarit?" But after that scene, and seeing how their abilities can be subverted, I no longer asked myself that question. Idk, that was my interpretation on the "sharing of thoughts" anyway. Cheers!
Spot on.
Great addition. Subconciously I knew throughout the book that Bene Gesserit women weren't just lie detectors that you couldn't get passed, Bene Gesserit could also be tricked or betrayed. Even though I didn't pick up on it until you laid it out here, that chapter probably helped me form that belief about Jessica and other Bene Gesserit. Even later in the book, Reverend Mothers like Mohiam are not infallible.
Dune is one of my favourite Si-Fi series but I find that the first book is just an introduction (despite being very long) nd the depth of what Franck Herbert was trying to do shines in the 4th book (God Emperor of Dune). Another Si-Fi series that I really love is Hyperion Cantos by Dan Simmons, mostly the first 2 books Hyperion and The Fall of Hyperion, really fascinating stories and concepts.
I mean to be honest you really have to read the entire series to fully understand what he was trying to do say but I do understand why a lot of people stop at God emperor it goes from deep and nuanced to extremely deep and extremely nuanced in chapter House and heretics (I had to read the last two books a few times before I fully understood them) it's also important to note that Frank Herbert died before finishing the series so I'm guessing we don't fully know what he was trying to say with his masterpiece
finally my people who recognize god emperor of dune 's greatness. in my opinion its his most profound work . Leto as a character is so complex and his emotions so tragic . the idea of leto being both the most human person to exist while also being the most inhuman.
@@mmilo131 completely agree, man I have to read it again
@@mmilo131 Leto is the most incredible character ever written in fiction. He is absolutely the most tragic, heroic, horrible, saintly, demonic, and yes human character I have ever read. The prescience trap is truly horrifying.
You doing a review on Dune is my two favourite book related things clashing together. You put your words very good about the themes of Dune!
So I also just read Dune for the first time, literally finished just yesterday. I was a little wary as so many people seem to say they can't get into it or don't like Herbert's writing style. I respect that opinion, but I also didn't have that experience at all. I loved it! I will say that you said you thought it might be better reading it with a super-fan or a course, Comicbookgirl19 here on TH-cam has done a Dune Club for the first two books and she is one of those people. I watched a few of them and she does a great job breaking down some of what is going on, gives you some background on Frank Herbert, how the book came together, some of the core philosophies Herbert infused into Dune, etc. It helped understand some things that weren't explained that well like Yueh's conditioning and why people refused to believe he would betray anyone. I don't think this is a perfect book because what I had the most trouble on was picturing some of the scenes in the desert and caves in book 2 and 3, but I found myself lost in thought on philosophy, ethics of power, and how easily people can be manipulated. Not for everyone, but worth a try.
Dune is a book about ecology, metaphysics, political systems, economics, and messianic religion, all dressed-up as a science fictional entertainment. It was written as a sort-of Aesop's fable for the Sixties audience, as all of those things were what was uppermost in almost everyone's minds. So you are spot-on, Merph, that Frank Herbert's agenda in writing this novel extends beyond telling a straightforward story, and is more about educating people on the world around them, at the time. And in all of his succeding Dune novels, he developes these ideas further, the difference being that these millenia-spanning novels become more intricate and involving, story-wise, and he puts most of the weight for examining the issues raised into the capable hands of Princess Irulan, among others, and the blurbs they offer before each chapter.
Blah, blah, blah -- I didn't mean to get so overly verbose in telling you that as a diehard fan of the Duniverse, I really, really appreciated your honest, well-though-out review. Dune isn't everyones cup of sappho juice, nor does it have to be. But I am glad that you recognise the importance of this book. Thanks for that.
My daughter and I viewed together. This was our first time watching you.
We are choosing a book series for study. Dune ended up on the short list, along with Hyperion and The Hitchiker's five-part trilogy.
Thanx for the different kind of review. It was refreshing to hear about the writing and not just content.
I always love to see people read Dune for the first time. Dune is weird, either you get it or you don't. The only way to know if Dune is for you or not is, to read Dune.
Fair.
This book being one of my favorites, the first time I read this, I quit reading it even before finishing the first chapter. The new and strange concepts, strange words, were all kind of overwhelming. But I decided to sit down and read no matter what and my god. Lets just say that I really am glad that I did.
Merphy coming out with videos like the flash⚡
Walter Pinkman If walt and jesse married I feel like Walt wouldn’t take Jesse’s name
@@ezraminard2986 should've thought about that when choosing the username lmao
Ive been watching the Reading Dune podcast on youtube as a companion guide to the book after i read a chapter. Helps me catch things I miss in the story and provides a discussion on the reading.
I believe that Dune makes a lot more sense after you've read Dune Messiah and Children of Dune. Some of the characters and developments in those books really provide that additional world building. Then when you go back, things like Yueh's betrayal being seen as truly impossible make more sense.
This review is the only one on the whole Internet I could find that balanced both praise and criticism, while also not summarizing the book. I read the book and enjoyed it, but everything you said was relatable and a niggling feeling I had. Thanks
Merphy, thank you for reviewing Dune. I'm a Dune nut. I fell in love with the Movie as a kid. Because of horrible dyslexia I have never read a physical book. When I found out about Audiobooks at 18 Dune was the first book I listened to. Since then I've listened to thousands of books. Dune is and will always be my favorite book. I have every book in the series. All six of Frank Herbert's and all 14 of Brian Herbert and Kevin J Anderson's contributions to the universe. I always wanted more at the beginning of Dune. You jump straight into that story with so much untold. Brian and Kevin have written 3 book prequel books that lead up to Paul's birth. Then they also jumped back 10000 years to tell the vary beginnings of the story. Like I said I'm a nut. I'm glad you liked Dune I hope you give the rest of the series a go.
I watched this review a couple of years ago, and just watched it for the second time and this is a wonderfully worded review, that is as interesting to listen to as reading a good story. What an intelligent person you seem, with great observation skills and the focus to pull insight from a book that obliterates my general engagement levels with a story. Being easy on the ears and eyes does not hurt the review either. Superb.
I discovered the joy of re-reading Dune way back when I realized the last three books had never been translated, so I re-read the first three to read the last three. And I've since re-read the saga every 5-7 years. Every time I discover new aspects of the story; get lost in side-stories I glossed over last time. It's the mark of an amazing story, that it grows with you. :)
I'm reading Dune for the first time right now, and my feelings on the book are really similar to yours. There's so much thought-provoking, well-written, well-thought-out ideas and concepts, and then there's all the internal monologues that just don't sit right with me. But even though they sometimes really annoy me, I'm really enjoying the book as a whole.
Its always nice to see the main criticisms be easily overcome by preference or simply due to the rest being so good.
I am glad you picked up on how the book is not a savior trope. And yes, you will get more every time. The book is a anti-trope story and a cautionary tale. The rest of the series lays this out. Hope you see the movie! (edit format issue)
I'm reading the books now, on book 2. I'm more fascinated with the ideas of how people have cognitively evolved in the next several thousand years than the plot. And I do truly enjoy that aspect. But at best the narrative is a thought study on how peoples make and destroy their own heroes and prophets; the plot itself is merely serviceable.
The plot being merely serviceable is a product of modern storytelling. The book is old. At the time it was written, the story was groundbreaking in a lot of ways, and alongside other writers like Asimov, Clarke, Banks, Moor, Gunn, Pohl, Chandler, Brown (and a few more), it set up the very foundations of modern science fiction and storytelling. The genre has evolved and the mantle since passed on to a newer and modern generation of storytellers that have the breadth and wealth of past works to draw upon.
I would argue that in it's own context, the plot transcends servicability and becomes the proper conduit for which the ideas have been presented without the need or pretence to be bigger or greater than how people would act/react/take action on behalf of the knowledge and culture presented there.
Reading fresh from today, it falls short of how we want or expect our material to be presented to us.
i personally found the narration/ inner monologue (what you took issue with) to be one of the more riveting aspects of the book! It shows that these humans have become so aware and conscious of behavior that every single conversation has become a chess game to them. That chapter in the arakeen dining room was more exciting than any fight scene in the book imo haha.
Yes! My thoughts exactly
Merphy, the main reason I enjoy you and your channel is that I relate with a lot of your feelings regarding many genres I like, and with Dune was no different. What I appreciated the most about this novel are the concepts, the philosophy, and the environment; way more than the plot itself, and I have a huge respect for Herbert, how he inserted these discussion themes into the story. Honestly, I did not enjoy a bunch of characters, and I felt their lore was quite shallow, with the plot being the factor for the themes I previously mentioned. You did an amazing review, and I expect to read this book in the future, with a new perspective.
I read whole series few times, and i love it.
How to read Dune series:
Pay attention to keywords related to RELIGION and POLITICS.
When such a key word is encountered, go back half page or sometimes whole page and reread it slowly, lots of things is just implied, so pay attention to deeper implications.
This book series is about mechanics of politics, mechanics of religion and mechanics of military power, how those 3 mechanics interplay and also devastating effects of politics on human lives. In other words it is a political science or a political philosophy textbook in a form on novel series. (From Your review i see that You get it, but You are struggling with finding words to express it).
Fremen are not snowflakes :-)
Dune has probably had me re reading sections as you describe more than any other book. Reading on auto pilot or skimming will leave you directionless.
Dune has a special place for me, I read it when I was still rather young (it was at that time the largest book I had read), during a hot summer and I made my first attempts at cooking on my own (and of course I put cinnamon in everything because of this book). Still, I am not angry at this review, I actually like people discovering this book, and I really hope Villeneuve will do it justice and that his film version will draw also more people in.
Great review!! Just some thoughts, surrounding the internal dialogue. As someone fascinated by psychology and criminal psychology, I found these fascinating. For example the betrayal and how much yuhe thinks about it. It's all consuming to him, versus how clueless everyone else seems to be. I feel like in real life people who say they never saw things coming are much like Jessica and Paul and criminals are a lot like yueh. I took that as a glimpse into their thought process and how these things can happen when we all think they're unthinkable.
Dune lore is intense. Nearly LOTR intense.
That's only half true, the time line is simply longer I think. The details of stuff like the Butlarian jihad are unimportant, as the effects are really the important take away from historical events like that.
@@Shinigami13133 @jarrod nash
Butlerian Jihad is important in explaining why computers are not allowed so much so on a religious level. It's considered sin & heresy to create computers. Therefore we have Mentats("super" human calculators memory & knowledge holders)in the Universe. It shows the amount of world building behind the ideas FH was trying to get across. AI technology is evil and will inhibit natural human evolution.
"This is a story that I feel like I could read a thousand times, and each time come out with new interpertations and discussion pieces, and pieces of the world, even though I'm reading the same text over and over again."
That's what I like to call, "old-fashion sci-fi". It's not about great impressions and "look how this character is cool" or "check my not-magic system!" (though you had some of those as well, especially Heinlein) but rather about "still waters run deep". This is from the psychedelic-experimental writing, where a story was more about exploring ideas, and less about plot and payoffs, etc. Others for example: Kurt Vonnegut, Phillip K. Dick, Ray Bradbury. You could also find some that later became movies: The Thing, Silent Running, Logan's Run, Annhilation, Solaris (1976 - also a great book), Moon, Naked Launch, etc.
I appreciate your take on Dune as the first time reader that you are. You mentioned that you felt there were a lot of concepts you probably didn’t catch. Don’t feel bad about that; that is one the amazing things about this book. You can go back and re-read it time and again, and catch nuances and themes you had previously overlooked. I hope you re-re-re-read it and get the full enjoyment out of it. Then you can do a update vlog on it. Cheers.
He who controls the spice controls the universe
Kudos to Merphy for refraining from saying spice melange. I still don't know how she did it but it is quite the fun word to say.
Hi Merphy! Your comment about the heavy internal thoughts is so true and a definite trait of Dune. So much so that when Lynch made the movie adaptation (which I love as much as the book), he did tons of voice-overs to replicate that same vibe in the book. Great review, your perspective is always refreshing!
Probably my favorite book of all time, even after sixteen read throughs I still get so much out of it more than any other novel. The next five are just as poigniant, particularly God Emperor of Dune. It's the only series where I whipped out a notebook to write down quotes as I was reading and still go back to them over 20 years after the first read. Phenomenal stuff
i had put so many Dune Cycle quotes in my agenda back in highschool
Great review. I appreciate your ability to critically analyze the story for its themes and meaning, something that eludes most other reviewers.
The problem is the guy who betrayed him basically had a certificate saying that was impossible. The reason this keeps getting reiterated is to show how much they blindly trusted the certification. I think this is a critique that even a person in a benevolent authority position could be turned for personal reason. It will be interesting to see how the new movie handles all this internal dialogue. I doubt they will do voice overs like David Lynch again.
That's an interesting thing to read into it. Makes me think of Bryan Caplan's The Case Against Education.
Still, I don't think it's fair to dismiss the Atreides trust in Wellington Yueh as a garden-variety case of credentialism. Over thousands of years, no one had ever managed to subvert a Suk doctor's conditioning. It really was an extraordinary feat, marking Baron Vladimir as possibly the greatest purveyor of perversion and corruption who ever lived.
Perhaps the lesson is that, on rare occasions, even things which have always been true may no longer be true?
Great review. You managed to encapsulate all my complicated feelings about this book perfectly!
"I like dune"
Me: *cries in danielgreene*
I definitely feel you with this review, I had the same issues with the book as you did. His writing style is so unique but does sometimes feel repetitive with how he covers the same ground over and over with internal thoughts but damn if I don't love the book. Its just such a fascinating world that Frank has created you can't help but be pulled into it and want to go deeper into its his message and the themes throughout.
I often wonder if the way it was written is indicative of when it was written: the way that Herbert portrays the story reminds me of The Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula LeGuin which, I think, was written within a few years of Dune. They both focus more on the philosophical nature of their universes rather than the action.
I agree. The Left Hand of Darkness is amazing.
Yes... Yes... YES! As someone how loves "Dune" and "The Left Hand of Darkness" never crossed my mind that this two books have some similarities.
Thanks for bringing this to the light!
I've debated reading Dune for a couple of years now, and I think I'd have to be in the mood for it, but your review has finally convinced me I need to pick it up at some point!
There is an encyclopedia for dune that dose detail the history of Dune. For anyone just getting into the Dune series just a couple of things to be aware of. Books 1,2, and 3 are one arch and the books after that the 3rd book assume that you read them. Also the books written by Brain Herbert the son of Frank Herbert are divisive in the Dune community as to whether they should be canon or not.
They should not, they are incompatible, brian and kevin visibly misunderstood the Buttlerian Jihad. Frank Jihad was because men where using machine too much they where becoming compleasant and they believed it stopped human evolution because we did not struggle anymore, Brian they where literally fighting Skynet
Loved how in-depth this was. Great points on psychic distance, Point of view, voice.
I think the "Betrayal scenes" were trying to show how reluctant and well trusted the Betrayer was. It may have been over the top, but I always saw it as a way to convey how guilty they felt about it, like really bad, really really bad, bad bad, really bad bad lol, and that they were so trusted someone could tell the victim that this person would decapitate them and the response would be, "Oh, dear. I must will have contracted gangrene and they had to amputate to save me." It was a way to build tension, but more importantly is was a crisis of identity for the person involved and was the only thing they could ever think of, it consumed them.
I appreciate the thoughtful review and at the same time I love the "betraying" segment. Thank you!
IMO, one of the coolest things Herbert did in Dune was almost entirely negate guns, bombs, etc. by the introduction of shield technology. At the time, I was just discovering European fencing and Japanese kendo, so it was so awesome to discover a sci-fi universe in which sword fighting was relevant once again, and not just in personal duels and such.
Just set the story in the past like asoiaf. Didn't need to be future.
i appreciated the simultaneous hand-holding, as well as the gradual unfolding of information, such to the point that you're still not even sure if what you just read was important rather than just a throwaway line or something.
and as far as hearing the character's thoughts about their betrayal of someone else.... i think you're supposed to read that as a LITERAL display of that person's thoughts.. i mean, think about it. you're in a very high-stress situation where you have to make DAMN sure someone doesn't know a thing you're planning (think of a surprise birthday party, for instance). that stuff is going to be on your mind, A LOT. we just got the literal transcription, beat for beat, of that person's thought process.
in today's literary scene? yes, that's risky as hell, and probably not something that would ever be published today.
but this is back in the mid 60s that this was published, where that kind of thing was perfectly fine. and more melodramatic, oftentimes, were these kinds of things done than even Dune had done so. and people ATE IT UP. the contrast being that this was done very realistically, that, i think, is kind of what changed the game for SFF.
Also, someone's already mentioned it in the comments, but check out Quinn's Ideas here on youtube. He's made a whole series on the Dune saga that are really helpful in making sense of its contents. He's one of my favourite youtubers, too.
Thank you for such a complex spoiler free review, I was really trying to decide whether I wanted to partake in this book before lost worlds but since it seems so intricate and immersive, I’ll wait till after so I can really deep dive into the world, thanks for such a detailed review! As always you nailed it 👌🏼
Dune, a great book. Read it back in 1989....due a re-read I think as well as me going on to some of the others in the series. Keep up the good work, your vids are great.
I'm late to this comment party as I've just finished reading the six main Dune books for the first time and am currently reading The Road to Dune which seems to me, so far, to be the closest thing to a "Silmarillion for Dune" as you put it. Just wanted to say great video! You've got a new subscriber in me!
I enjoyed hearing what you thought about the book however in regards to Yueh there are several mentions of why they don't suspect him. The main thing being that he is conditioned in a way that makes him loyal and as far they know this conditioning is impossible to break.
I'm late to this discussion, but this is the best description and review of Dune that I've seen or read. So many "Dune Geeks" like me get so excited describing Dune and we get over analytical. "...the point of Dune was to discuss a lot of deeper topics, and the story was a medium to discuss, but the story itself isn't nearly as important as the discussions." Perfect description of what Frank Herbert was wanting to achieve in my opinion...I'm using that whenever I'm asked again what Dune is about!
I was 300 pages in for dune to click with me and then I fell in love with it
Agree - when Paul and Jessica went into the desert that’s when I really started to enjoy it. It really irritated me that on the back of the book it tells you that Duke Leto dies which I felt like I was constantly waiting for.
How about that second time through? Good, right? :)
The Sci-Fi mini-series got me hooked on sci-fi as a kid (10years old) as a teen an adult became my all-time favorite book series hope you stick with it at least a god emperor (I can kind of see why people lose interest after that I didn't but it's definitely understandable) as the emperor so wisely proclaimed the spice must flow lol
@@theinevitablegodemperordea4278 yeah I got to god emperor already kinda tired of the series and the fact that they kept reviving that one guy sorry it’s been a few years over and over and he wasn’t even an interesting character or important to the original plot really bothered me but I did like that Leto was a big worm
Really great review! Totally agree that the character thoughts were spelled out too much at times. But about the Atreides not suspecting Yueh... The imperial conditioning process that was needed in order to get the qualifications as a doctor in this world was about as close to a law of nature as it could be, up to that point. Yueh had been corrupted by a new technique developed by Piter, but as far as anyone else in the universe could know, imperial doctors were completely incapable of inflicting harm (and had been for thousands of years). There really wasn't any basis to suspect him, and since sleeping pills and other drugs for altering states of consciousness seem to be completely routine aspects of life for these people, used casually and frequently, that wouldn't have been seen as out of the ordinary at all. I guess it could be said that they should have just assumed Yueh couldn't be trusted because they had no proof that he could be. But I think it's pretty realistic that in a world of such uncertainty and betrayal, they'd latch onto and fully trust this one figure that represented the immovability of their empire. The way I saw it was that the houses were playing a game, and the rules had been clearly set out before them. Some things were simply out of bounds, and imperial conditioning was one of these things, until Piter broke the game
You summed up my thoughts precisely. Due to the bad writing (or writing that irritated me more than I would like) I believe I lost a lot of what the book was trying to convey :( I am considering reading it in a translation, maybe it will read better.
I have just finished reading Dune & I totally agree with your point of view! I'm glad that I found other people sharing my good vs. bad arguments regarding this book.
Well, the betrayal is what's on his mind all the time and keeping it from her is a constant walk on a razor's edge. I guess him not appearing at all would be the only way to stop repeating his thoughts ^^ And nobody is suspicious of him because he literally can't hurt anyone.
Late to the party but I felt I should point out that the betrayor is an early introduction to a common theme in Herbert's Dune: Humanity's frequent overtrust in institutional promises.
I had a similar experience with Dune. I also read the second book which is quite short so I found it strange that there's a large time jump from the end of book 1 to the end of book 2. I get the feeling Herbert wanted to tell a great story but really didn't like writing.
It's a cultural phenomenon that I guess you kinda had to be there at the time to fully appreciate. After book 2 I'm indifferent about finishing the trilogy and unlikely to begin the 2nd trilogy. But i did just start WOT and it doesn't seem like the author had a problem writing at all. 😂
First off, I love your review! Really honest and insightful commentary! About your problems with the betrayal plot and the general "let me tell you what every character is thinking" omnipresent style, I definitely found it jarring the first time I read Dune, but now I think that Herbert wrote his characters that way intentionally. An important aspect of the Dune universe is that it's in a way a hyper-advanced version of a medieval, feudalistic society. Imagine the constant fear and paranoia of living in a culture where every person must be addressed correctly at all times, where every sentence must be phrased just right or you might insult someone, and anyone around you could be a spy gathering information for your most hated enemies, but now add in the sci-fi concepts of people who can read every single micro-expression that passes over your face or compel you to obey them with a word. I think the reason the characters in Dune can feel so stiff or formal, and the reason that Herbert explicitly tells us their inner thoughts, is that they are almost always in situations where they are unable to show their true feelings and must instead, in the name of self-preservation, restrict their every word an action.
One of the most effective devises of Dune is that it drops you into the world and leaves so much unexplained. This makes it immersive.
Read Dune series years back, and revisited them all on audio before the movie came out. My son is currently reading the first book and is loving it. So glad you had a pretty good reaction to it. Also... this is the perfect example of a book series not going the way you are expecting it to!
Just watched the 2021 movie of Dune. I immediately told my friends, "there's no way Hollywood made a universe THIS elaborate. It's gotta be a book." Didn't expect it to be a LOOOOOONGGG A$$ series lol. I've been reading reviews that the first book can be treated as a standalone novel. With all that being said, as a newbie to the Duniverse, should I get the Movie-cover title or the Hardback Deluxe Edition with the nice artwork on the cover? Would appreciate any suggestions! 😂😂
It doesn’t matter.
get a version that you like. but most important is that you can carry it wherever you go, so that whenever you get the urge to read, you can.
Odd that you didn't know it was a book already.
Great review. I haven't read Dune but I have been intrigued by it. I'm still not sure if I'll end up reading it but your insights give a lot of clearity on how it was written, as well as the overall style of its story, which I really appreciate. I'm keeping this one in consideration but have a lot of other books you've turned me on to that are much higher on my want to read list.
Keep up the excellent reviews. You have a great analytical mind for reviewing which is really refreshing and highly regarded in the booktubing world. Cheers
Merphy trying hard not to say "I didn't really like reading this book, but I don't want to alienate my audience".
Dune is like a book with recipes - I respect the content, even though I would never read it for fun.
I get how it could have come off that way, but that's not really what I was trying to get across. It's more like, I loved the concept and discussion of this book and I'm really glad I read it, but because of certain writing choices, I didn't enjoy the process of reading it. So I'm just really mixed on how I felt about it and that's been hard for me to articulate
@@merphynapier42 With Dune I would say, It's one of those stories where once you are on the third(Children Of Dune) it just all becomes clear. One cannot judge the series without the 3rd. At least in my opinion.
ishan bajpai ugh, I hated that book. I couldn’t even finish it. I felt like Dune was Herbert’s life’s work, and every book after it was a sad a attempt at satisfying his publisher.
@@ishanbajpai6940I am SO a complete head-over-heels fan, but the 3rd book was the one I liked the least. I get what you're saying though. And I'll add that if as you say you need the 3rd book to understand the story, you need the 4th book to understand the WORLD.
@@merphynapier42 I feel the same way about Wheel of Time.
I had the experience you say you wish you had: I first read Dune as a part of a book club with a superfan (Comicbookgirl 19 aka Danika XIX). I hope you keep reading the series since you loved the world so much!
I listened to this with my eyes closed and envisioned Meg Griffin reviewing Dune.
Bro that is an amazing comment
Hahaha
Lmao I hope I assume correctly and this is not meant to be mean spirited but that's hilarious
It would be awesome to see you do either a spoiler review where you can go into more detail or a discussion video/podcast where you just talk about the book with someone else or others who have read it.
Read the sequels if you want more exploration and answers. I strongly encouarge you to read up until Children of Dune. At least give Dune Messiah a shot. Because Messiah is not really a new installment but rather a epilogue to the book 1. I like the sequels even more than the first one because Herbert twists the tropes that he built in the first book and gives the reader a clear understanding what was really going on. He really tried warn us about messianic figures and charismatic leaders might have done to world around us If they were given that kind of corruptable power.
Considering the density of the start of this novel. One of the (many) concepts that herbert plays with like silly putty is how context affects perspective. Consider how the fremen treat paul as a deity but we know that their entire saviour myth has been planted by the space witches.
The first 50 or so pages of Dune is frank herbert telling you EXACTLY what is going to happen to the Atreides, down to the name of the traitor, but not telling you WHY it's going to happen. He does this throughout the book; action followed by set up.
Man I love this book
This has never been "on my radar" but with the new film coming out, I might give it a try. Maybe. My main concern is the omnipresent narrative, I get confused easily and I feel like it could potentially confuse me.
There are worse things than being confused. I haven't read the book, but don't let that concern stop you from reading something you might enjoy.
Dune is not confusing in you can not tell who is talking and it thinking all the characters have a distinct voice. That can it can be confusing in some off the metaphysics and ecology If you are not familiar with those topics.
I don’t think it’ll be a problem. Dune explains every characters motivation, it explains every plan. Usually you know chapters ahead of time when someone is going to die or get betrayed, and the interesting part is HOW that will happen.
While I agree with the other replies, if you have a history of being confused in this way with reading books like this, my suggestion would actually be to wait for the new movie. Watch Dune Part One, then read the first half of the book (you can finish it if you prefer though), then after Dune Part Two you can read the rest. That might help you understand the flow a bit better, if you are concerned about being confused.
Oh Merphy, now you planted the idea of a Dune Silmarilion in my mind and I desperatly want one xD Loved the video, Dune is one of my favourites and I agree that it's more about the reflections and the ponderings than about the plot... I really enjoy that and I think it has some of the most insightful ideas about the dinamics of power that I've ever read. About the whole betrayal plot, MILD SPOILERS AHEAD:
so the guy that betrays them (his name escapes me) has received imperial conditioning in his training, therefore it is believed he cannot lie. As a reader you kind of feel like "yeah, right" but I think Dune requires a bit more suspension of disbelief in certain moments, so you just have to go with it and try to get into the "what, but his training?! he can't possibly be liying!" wagon
If you think DUNE is one of the most fascinating books you've ever read, God Emperor of DUNE is like "hold my spice beer". It's one of the most intriguing philosophical books ever written but suffers from lack of notoriety because you need to read the books before it to really have your mind blown. It's nearly complete poetry.
yeah. true!
I read this book last week and I understand where you are coming from Merphy, but personally I really enjoyed myself the whole way through. I must say that I was able to talk to a super fan when I had questions about the world so that probably helped make my experience more positive then yours. Also I tried annotating for the first time (I know you annotate while you read) but if I hadn't I would have been way more confused than I was.
I can't wait for the movie!
The cast is full of talented actors.
Same I really really hope it does well so that we can at least see an adaptation of God emperor of Dune
When I was a kid back in the 80s my parents told me that Dune was required reading when they were in High School.
It really should be
Honestly I'm a 90s kid and I think it still should be the whole series not just book one
@@DecoyJayc shit I wish we read that in school
I really love Herbert's writing style. It does have that sense of "myth" or prophecy to it. For example, when Yueh is introduced, some of his first thoughts are "man its going to suck when I betray these guys". Then we see him betray them. Then later on everyone is like "man didn't it suck when Yueh betrayed us?" we get to be not a fly on the wall, but a kind of passive god in the Dune universe, watching things play out even as we pretty much know what the end result is going to be.
It's like reading the Bible. We know Judas will betray Jesus, we sit with Judas while he thinks about and laments betraying Jesus, then we see him betray Jesus and the moment still has gravity and weight even though we knew it was coming. The betrayal was also a way to comment on slavishly adhering to "known" or widely accepted information. It's "known" that the Suk conditioning "cannot be broken", so even though it's painfully obvious that Yueh is likely the traitor, to the characters, it's literally impossible to concieve of because they've bought into the popular dogma of the day. A bit of a meta-anlysis, but Yueh's betrayal is actually the only recorded case of Suk conditioning being "broken" (it was actually bent, more than broken) and even that was only due to a set of infinitely unique circumstances.
In regards to the prophetic quality of the book, for example, Paul talks about his "terrible purpose", then we just watch as that terrible purpose comes to fruition. If, at the end of the book, someone were to say "holy shit I didn't see that coming", I'd wonder if we read the same book. The end is practically laid out from the beginning and the inevitability is ultimately what makes it compelling.
Your frustration with the characters not suspecting the betrayer (around 9:45) completely misses the point - no one suspected him because of their absolute belief in Suk conditioning - they thought it was a literal impossibility that he would betray them. This may seem like a plot cop-out, but I think it's quite a poignant commentary about human blind-spots with faith in processes, especially in this world Herbert created to say "here's the danger with charismatic leaders and super-humans". You filed this under not liking his writing style, but in this instance it seems more like you misunderstood the reason the characters never suspected him.
Also, The Dune Encyclopedia is a thing that exists, and is basically the Silmarillion you desire.
Also, you couldn't know this from your first time reading it (unless you did research first) but the 1st book isn't the full story. And I don't mean that in the sense that Dune spans 8 books, but rather that Dune wasn't actually a book. It was serially published in a magazine. So was Dune Messiah, which became the second book. They were made into books later. Dune Messiah is truly the completion of the first part of the story - it completes the arc of Muad'dib. Messiah is necessary reading in order to understand the story Herbert wanted to tell. But you're right that these books are a medium for his philosophy: "charismatic leaders should come with warning labels: may be dangerous to your health."
Lastly this is just a difference of opinion, I think the world-building in Dune is first class. It's just of a different type than other media. Herbert rarely spends time describing how people or locations look, for instance. So so much of the look of things is left to your imagination. Also, it's probably the least sci-fi sci-fi story ever, despite being one of the most popular sci-fi stories. There isn't much focus on future tech. On the other hand, the ecology of Dune is incredible. The deep understanding and respect Herbert had for ecology is clearly evident. And yeah, he wanted to tell a more political and philosophical story, so the worldbuilding is much more focused on the politics of the world, and the "worlds" of the characters minds, which are interesting since their minds have evolved so much further than current-day human minds. It's still world building, just not the world building most people expect in a sci-fi story.
I do believe that Dune Messiah should complete a trilogy of Denis Villeneuve adaptations of Frank Herbert's works. Two films to comprise the first book and DM to finish the trilogy. Children of Dune can continue as a standalone film along with God-Emperor, fingers crossed. Heretics, Chapterhouse, Sandworms, and Hunters should be televised, methinks...
@@FVD That would be awesome. I already expect I'll see Dune 2020 in theaters multiple times, and I hope it gets tremendous public support so he can keep making these films.
Great review! It was very honest and open feedback from someone who isn’t too familiar with Dune. If you want to understand more, I highly recommend Quinn’s Ideas.
Is it my imagination or did you just "friendzoned" a book?
Ha ha ha :-)
I believe she did!
no me gustas-gustas, sólo me gustas - Hey Arnold.
Im reading Dune and Merphy, you were mentioning the part of the character thinking of betraying and it was what i felt. Im liking it but i liked your vídeo a lot!👌
I would totally ride a sandworm XD
That’s what she said.
Only if its your true Desire or Destiny, or perhaps if you Dream about it
Hey Merph, I love your Dear Authors series!,
It wasn't scattered; I actually felt you touched on many good points. I love Dune - lol, whenever my wife mentions that new movie they are putting out, I perk up like a cat with nip - but yeah, it has some problems. I've read or listened to Dune a couple of times, and I will say it felt dry in some parts. I think that the betrayal aspect of Yueh could have been done better if Herbert showed the manipulation of the man, rather than just told you repeatedly. Have a letter and the edge was smeared with his wife's blood, his hands shaking as he read the innocuous note, that sort of thing. The benefit of the show over tell style is you can blur specific motivational information, but it also allows you to empathize with a character more. Herbert was trying to do that to some extent with the bible scene, I believe. Having it stated so explicitly over and over made Yueh feel artificial; less 'loving man doing something terrible' and more 'Dr. Inciting Incident'.
The Wheel of Time influenced by Dune? I read Eye of the World before Dune and I noticed how much the premice is inspired by Dune and Lord of the Rings.
Aes Sedai of WoT is basically the Bene Gesserit.
In book 4 it is even more clear. The ending even takes elements of the ending of the 1984 movie, that was not in the Dune book (and is even a little antithetical to the book).
LOVE Denis Villeneuve's film adaptation, so def gonna go buy the book!! Thanks Merph!!!!!!!!!!!
This is very similar to how I felt after reading Dune - very much in two minds, appreciating it but not sure how much I actually enjoyed it