Mike Portnoy Is Back! (My Thoughts/Analysis)
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 10 ก.ย. 2024
- The man himself, Mike Portnoy, has officially reunited with Dream Theater. After a long long stretch of Mangini-fied polyrhythms we have come full circle back to where we began. These are some of my personal thoughts + an impromptu analysis of the 2 drummers side by side... ALSO LET'S NOT FORGET. THAT MIKE PORTNOY IS BACK! Let's celebrate the news, but remember to be carefully apprehensive of expectations that are too high.
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I think the guys were seeing what Mike was doing with Sons of Apollo,
Transatlantic, The Winery Dogs, etc. as far as selling out shows was concerned that they were like, We made a mistake and need to get him back in the band. And of course, there were the constant comparisons between the two and the Mangini bashing and his "robotic, uninspired" drumming comments. Best of luck to him.
Great analysis. I would like to add one more thing which in my opinion is extremely important. Portnoy's OCD has led to him becoming a walking library of music. His head is FULL of music from all genres and when composing songs or drum parts he draws from that wealth of knowledge to bring life to the compositions. He just intuitively knows what works and what doesn't and he's able to elevate the music to a whole new level through his input, both in terms of drumming and also in terms of melody, harmony, lyrics, riffs, ryhthms, etc. The man is literally "crazy" and his mental "disorder" has kinda turned him into a genius in music. Of course this does not work well with every project he's been in, but particularly in Dream Theater it was an integral part of their music.
I'm very hyped for Portnoy's return. I've been waiting for this for over a decade. He's back where he belongs and DT is back to how it was always supposed to be. Very exciting.
(Edit: and one more thing I would add is the drum sound. Portnoy's drum sound is EPIC, and also very loud in the mix and a driving factor for the music. Mangini's sound however is lacking in all aspects.)
Yes.. him as an archivist of materials has been of great service to DT.. Great drummers tend to lean heavily into that mindset.
Missing in your diagram: both share the same firstname
That would be funny if he just had the word "mike" in the center
I agree with most of your analysis, Mike; however, Distance over Time is far better than ‘decent.’ I think it’s the closest I’ve felt to their ‘90s work in many years. That album really hit a sweet spot for me, personally and musically.
I'll have to revisit it, I'd definitely rank that as one of the higher mangini records.. Dont worry your previous comments haven't gone unnoticed lol .. the whole album may be a stretch but the standout tracks may have a shot at some future videos.
100% Agree. I think Distance Over Time is by far the best album they made with Mangini.
@@RomanovaMusick I hear you. Definitely Barstool Warrior. Lol. 👌
Hard agree. Distance Over Time is very tight, with little fat, and very consistent withing songs. You can recognize each song by just listening 3 to 5 second, making them very recognizable, and the standouts are absolute bangers.
To me "A View From..." is another great if not the best album with MM, and also one of the best DT albums in total... anyway, I agree with the analysis in general.
They made some good stuff with Mangini and he's incredible from a technical standpoint, but I've always been team Portnoy. I'm ecstatic at this news.
This is excellent. I am ALWAYS here for a good Venn diagram, and you bring such a great perspective!
I haven't made a venn diagram in 23 years.. lol feels good to get back in the game.
If they got Kevin Moore back, I'd be excited.
Dude I don't think he wants to be involved with Dream Theater anymore he's done lol
@@mistekful"if"
conjunction
1.
(introducing a conditional clause) on the condition or supposition that; in the event that.
@@jimpanzee4063 o·pin·ion
noun
a view or judgment formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge.
Kevin Moore was my favorite Keyboard player in Dream Theater.
I agree with you. Portnoy was the architect. I wonder if they didn't let Mangini contribute like he could have like they did with Rudess. Maybe they didn't want to go beyond the DT signature sound but in the end they lost something. We could all tell. So I'm hoping they bring back some of that signature DT sound we love even if they aren't in their prime.
I'm cautiously optimistic but even their worst with Portnoy was more memorable than most of what they did without him.
its a rock n roll band formula thing... members leave or get kicked out and then re-unite years later...last 2 albums were just genius. Mangini was taking the prog part of the DT music to another level...the extreme fans never got over things.MM got beat up for playing Portnoy songs with a different feel and i get it as i love the classic albums.. as a drummer myself the Mangini made all those crazy parts and time signatures like a game toying with a groove that was so modern sounding that most wont get it.i just smile when i hear what hes done with some of the parts.the production and drum sounds on the newer DT albums are a whole other level.i didnt listen much to DT in the 2000-s. Mangini made listening to them fun again.
I dunno man.. i think Mangini did the opposite. Played with less feel and energy than was there previously. Treating music like a math project is not really my bag.
Unironically I don't see where mangini has "taking the prog part of the dt music to another level" in the dt albums. Playing a polyrhythm that does not fit the song is not really impressive. If you want something that is hard to do but have no regard to how it sounds, you can watch a sport. Music is not a sport.
you wanna hear someone technical as mangini but that actually writes more fitting parts that are music, check out virgil donati. Equally as confusing, but virgil's playing is more musical.
This video is the best analysis I've ever seen between these two. Great video!
Nice to see a familiar face!
@@WaywardSon55 awesome to see you here, man!
Eh it was pretty surface level. He likes Portnoy's drumming more Mangini's we get it.
Big cranium alert
is the astonishing the one you don't like?
i would think so
I'm assuming, yes. It is after all the only truly awful album they've ever made.
I never understand how you could hate the astonishing but take many parts of a view from the top of the world seriously.
Haven’t even watched yet but I always like Romanova’s material first!
I thank you kindly
Yes! Bring Kevin Moore back!
First thing I did when read the news, was searching for a Romanova video about it.
Hell yeah, I made this because I felt compelled.
I'm not even a Dream Theater fan and I have really enjoyed watching this. I only own Images and Words and never went deeper than that.
Dig at least to Awake level. It's worth it.
I commend you on your flexibility lol I honestly never expected to have non DT fans watching but hell I'm happy about it.
I think I just wanted to see what you thought as you seem passionate about music and I thought you'd have an interesting take. Even though I have never listened to a full new album with Mike Mangini, I believe I'd be thinking the same thing about Portnoy having the real deel and passion needed to bring the music alive. @@RomanovaMusick
I had to look at my calendar when the news came in. I'm happy, but feel sad for Mangini, he is a beast, I like him a lot. But in the composition, Portnoy brings more
Excellent commentary dude, so much I hadn't thought about there but wholeheartedly agree with, especially the FUN factor. Its like Dave re-joining Slayer for a time, or Phil coming back to AC/DC, its just feels right.
Oh yeah Dave Lombardo is another great example of having that energy
Well said. I liked Mangini but there was always a feeling of "What I played there is amazing because of splitting my limbs 4 ways" instead of just playing parts and leaving the decision to me. MP always had a more natural flow. MM is more of a session drummer in my mind (althougu I like him)
I for one would love to see a Mangina/Porntoy duo set as they transition over responsibilities.
Mangina hahah
Porntoy
bruh
MANGINI would show Porkboy what technical really looks like.
@mikeb598 I would be interested in seeing someone perform advanced paradiddles using only a mangina. Now thats real technique. Which Porntoy would never have.
Here's my Opinion Mangini is AI Portnoy is human flesh and blood
Don’t know if you’re aware but this is in Portnoy’s “favorites” playlist on his official TH-cam channel haha
I did not but I'm gonna need to have a looksie
A really nice analysis. Well i am one of the few that prefer manginis out of this world virtuosity but i recognise the architect dimension. Also its unfair to blame mangini for the last records while the rest of the band is clear. He is underutilized for sure. Anyway most of the fans didn't accept him so marketing wise and for fraternity reasons i get this development.
I'm right there with ya.
Very disappointed seeing Mangini go.
In my fantasy, they change to a full instrumental fusion jazz metal called Liquid Tension Theater.
Only point I disagree was the comment at the start about how they might not deliver the same level of magic because they’re older. The proof we have, that the magic is possible is when you listen to LTE3, and TV. The unity these guys share in their style, energy and creativity cannot be discounted. It’s a natural thing and we’re going to love the band all over again. They will innovate. They will push the envelope and impress us.
James LaBrie?
@@RomanovaMusickagree on that point with respect to Labrie (if that’s what you were referring to on the comment, yes you’re right). Age has had its impact on James, but when he’s not wailing up high, I love how he sounds
Portnoy can't push the envelope farther than Mangini when it comes to skill.
@@mikeb598 But he's more creative in general which works better for DT..
@@RomanovaMusick I just think MP is ur guy and if MP could and did play at Mangini's level and played Mangini's parts first you would love it coming from MP.
Imo what Mangini did on the Breaking the fourth wall was way above good. His attitude playing The Shattered Fortress was unreal. So he had his great moments in the band. However, his stage performance lacked consistency over the time. You probably would see him playing with low enegy if you watch him in a regular DT show.
In addition, I would say that the tone of each drum kit is very different. Portnoy knows how to make it sounds natural, but also big.
Portnoy is a very aggressive drummer. He's loose and hits hard.
He has a certain rawness and confidence in his playing that is very appealing to the masses.
I don't enjoy him as much as I do Mangini, but I can respect the effort. The man is a bona-fide legend, and has DRIVEN the band to commercial success.
Honesty, I think I needed this because I was losing my edge. Portnoy gave me a nice wake up call, with his retuen to DT.
Another thing Ibalways liked about Portnoy was his tom sounds. Sometimes the snare and bass drums sounded "wonky", but the toms were always gorgeous. I love the snare sound on Awake.
I'm interested to see of he does Mangini era matarial, and how he will intrepret it. I dont see him faithfully reproducing Mangini's parts because Portnoy isn't a technique guy. He's a basher, which is absolutely fine for his approach. It's wotked for him all this time and will continue to do so. It may even play a role in his legendary sound. But it won't allow him to faithfully execute Mangini's parts. Mangini is on a freak level with his technique.
Many fair points made.. But Portnoy is indeed a technique guy, but happens to have a lot of feel. Although he might have 'mass appeal' to hardened DT fans, he doesn't have mass appeal like John Bohnam or even guys like Lars Ulrich, which I believe have true mass appeal. A big criticism of DTs music (from the masses) is that it is too busy and technical, not excluding the drums.
Mangini as a soloist and exhibitionist has the edge, but like I've previously mentioned in a lot of these comments, I'm waiting to hear something played within a DT song that Portnoy wouldn't be able to perform. I just don't see the gap in technique being significant enough within that context.
@@RomanovaMusick - I appreciate the discussion!
By technique, I mean hand technique. Guys like Mangini, Lang, and Donati have incredible command of the rudiments, and often employ them while playing within songs and solos. Portnoy can absolutely play any of the rudiments he wishes, but he tends to stick to mostly single strokes - which is what I did for YEARS too. Didn't make us "worse" drummers, but I can say that using even just double strokes has added SO much to all of my drumming. Especially when it comes to playing melodies on the toms.
No knock on Portnoy though. Not intending it to translate that way.
There is nothing Mangini did that Mike Portnoy can't do. However, there are many parts that Mangini does where he utilizes either those insane single stroke fills, or those things where he's layering those poly rhythms. He could do them, but it would take years and years of diligent practice to be as proficient that Mangini has been for decades. It's not that he can, but that he should have full liberty to fully rework those songs with his own drum parts. I wouldn't be mad at all about that - no disrespect to Mangini. But it's Portnoy's band. I get it.
@danlc95 When it comes to strict hand technique, Portnoy is not on the same level as Mangini.. The same applies to dynamic contrast, Portnoy likes playing caveman style, which to his credit suits the music of Dream Theater more lol
A lot of the finesse and jazzy hand technique of Mangini gets drowned out once the heavy riffs are introduced.. and let's face it doesn't really fit either, which isn't reflective of Mangini as a drummer, but more as a producer and writer within DT.
I enjoyed your analysis and you are spot on. I agree with the major difference between the two Mikes: whether they are fully integrated with DT songs, or being a song writer.
The drummers who auditioned for the replacement are at least as technical as Portnoy or even more. In my knowledge, in particular, Mike Mangini, Marco Minnemann, Thomas Lang and Virgil Donati are well known for their extreme technical capabilities in drumming world. However, I think that any candidates would have been in a difficult position.
Dream Theater's style is creating compositions as ultimate form in recording and reproduce them in live performance, leaving little room for improvisation. It's different from 70's rock like Led Zepplin or jazz/fusion music where the original form of song is evolved through improvisation in a live performence. I have an impression that the drummers mentioned above would perform better in such a flexible setting, while Portnoy is not just a drummer for DT but an integrated piece of the band and their songs, aligned with the perfectionism (and even adding 'fun' part you mentioned in the video).
Yep. You nailed it.
Mangini might have a slight edge!!??
That's an understatement .
As much as I like MM - to me , MP is the conceptual spine of DT . I am super happy he is back . Great analysis , thanks for doing that .
wow, he just brought it to point. So true.
Let's hope *_YtseJam Records_* are gonna kick some ass again !
Hell yeah man that's what I'm sayin..
Portnoys drum parts are unbeatable. Portnoy plays with taste and groove.
I'd been waiting for this moment fifteen years... hope it's not too late for them.
Hell no. Never too late.
Great video, and I couldn't agree more (especially with the Kevin Moore bit!) I wonder if Portnoy playing Mangini's songs, and putting his own ballsy spin on them (either through wanting them to sound more like his drum style, or physically being unable to match Mangini's unreal limb separation) will ironically lead to more people appreciating them?
That's a good thought, and I will be looking out for that. I feel like he'll at least do that once lol
I agree with this thought. To suggest that MM isn't a composer does a massive disservice to him. MP is one of my favorite drummers ever and I'm torn by the news because I've also been a big MM fan since the 90s. All said, while I love MP, there's no way, whatsoever, he has the skill to play many of MM's parts faithfully and accurately. That certainly wasn't the case with MM playing MP's parts.
@@jeffreyburrell this whole video was done in the context of dream theater, though, which is where the scale tilts heavily.. if not entirely.. in favor of portnoy. Especially in a compositional sense.
@@jeffreyburrell and there are many times where MM played lifeless renditions of MPs parts.. 6:00 for instance.. makes you think about what elements are more important at the end of the day.
@@RomanovaMusick I actually agree with you with respect to the wasted potential. I think MM did the best he could compositionally with his drum parts in the face of the “John and Jordan” show. I’m not knocking the band, I just think it became clear that MM was not given enough room to spread his wings, but what he did compose was pretty incredible.
I love how you broke that down. I love the insane technical abilities the MM has, no doubt. But it always felt like some of his studio work felt stiff. No parts that made me want to rewind and hear that drum part again. I had to pause and go WTF WAS THAT hundreds of times on MP era recordings.
I had been playing drums myself for a while when a friend introduced me to DT and I never saw drumming or music the same again.
Replay value is critical
It was the opposite for me.
I never did that with Portnoy.
With Mangini - several, several times.
I prefer Portnoy musically but somehow have mixed feelings about it, given how they only just come off winning a Grammy win & Mangini showing really what he is capable of, I pretty much accepted Mangini as the drummer over the journey.
There will definitely be two defined era's MM was on 5 Albums that's not just some part timer.
Yours is a compelling analysis. Nevertheless, you did not address which is perhaps the main reason behind Mangini's dismissal: MONEY.
DT has not been a music band since 2002...Have they made all the decisions based on financial factors?? Is that the reason they have not recorded a memorable work in two decades?? Awake is the group's undisputed masterpiece. They accomplished to create such a disc at a time when they were art-minded guys. It seems that since 2002 they are business- minded investors. Musicality, expressiveness, and craftsmanship have not been on their agenda for years. Whenever a musician weights profits over creativity, their career is done. It seems to me that Rudess has been the one behind this greedy approach.
Like many other metal bands, DT's current income is not as profitable as it was years ago. This may have to do with digital music platforms: people buy music no more, the get it for free via TH-cam. So nowadays, the band's revenue depends heavily on touring. My hypothesis: they are old and the are in the red, so DT's management decided to bring Portnoy to secure some financial stability in hopes that hardcore fans massively get tickets for the next tour. Be that as it may, DT's commercial span might come to and end within four or five years. Time to say goodbye??
Good points, but I'll counter that Portnoy's original dismissal/departure was also motivated by money. The rest of the band didn't want the gravy train end, which I think long term hurt them.
It’s the musical wizardry that attracts a lot of fans, im curious to see how MP plays the current catalogue.
the same way he played Virgil's parts and Billy Cobham's parts; Half assed.
2 Drummers and 2 Keyboard players - get everyone on the DT team
Lol loving this idea.. just go full hog on the membership.. 2 drummers 3 keyboardists and 2 vocalists.. It'll be like the transiberian orchestra but with dream theater members.
MORE PARTY MEMBERS!!!!
@@the_abandoned_monastery7218 MOOOOOOOREEEEE PARTY MEMBERSSSSS MOOOOOREEEE PARTY MEMBEERRRSSS
No
@@the_abandoned_monastery7218 The Chrono Cross of prog bands!
Firstly, the whole initial deal of MP being literally given no choice but to leave the band was a debacle that never should have occurred!!!
Watch the “auditioning for a new DT drummer” clips. MM played his hand perfectly… …he did & said everything possible to win over the DT guys, and it worked. Was he the best man for the job, No Way. He just “played the game” better than the others.
MM maybe “technically proficient” but his skills are lacking in so many other areas; his playing is way too regimented, he has barely any creativity, and absolutely no “feel” for a songs dynamics. “Ghost Notes”…??? what are they?? His overall persona - he always looks “angry” and makes playing the drums look ridiculously difficult (even easier sections when they’re not). I tried, (I really did), to give him a chance to “fit in”, but I watched some of their first live shows… …hmmm, I remember thinking that he was in the wrong profession; he should be slicing up meat - you understand me.
So for almost 13yrs I stopped listening to DT (post MP). However, I was really hoping something was going on when MP did the “LTE” third album, and then when JP asked him to join him for his solo tour. It was certainly looking like something else was going on.
Then, one of my happiest DT moments; the announcement last Oct - “he’s back”!!
As for what the future holds for DT? I believe there will be a huge resurgence in their music. Fans like myself will be eagerly awaiting the both hear and see them playing together. MP will bring his “fun” and energy, and he’ll be so keen to deliver. The guys at Drumeo had MP on their channel - its a really good watch, as MP talks quite openly about his expectations etc.
On a controversial note, i think it is time for JLaB to get his marching orders. If anyone deserves to be “kicked out” its him. He was the instigator of MP leaving the band. Ok, so he leaves… …who replaces him? My pick - Geoff Tate
thanks for reading.
cheers
e
Labrie’s gotta go
I love the Astonishing and want the band experiment more and truly be the "prog" band we love (redefining their own sound every album). Also, I think Mangini did have some "Great" moments.
But yeah, Portnoy is much better for Dream Theater and they know how to utilise his skills well. He "is" the real Dream Theater member.
I think the Astonishing would have been better with Portnoy's input, drum production, and arrangement skills.
@@driftless7134 agreed, except for the drum production part.
Portnoy was the heart of the band, it could not be replaced. I hope they will play Portnoy's song, The best of times, because it has a beautiful guitarsolo and this song was never played live by the band.
Neverthekess, I think Labrie was always the weakest link of the band.
Agreed.. even though black clouds was a bit of a weak album, the standout tracks are still very good..
And yep... Unfortunately James Labrie's range has taken a bit of a hit over the years. Hopefully Portnoy being back will help guide the melodies along even with the vocal limitations. We shall see.
This conveys my feelings exactly! Thanks.
It seems to me that Mangini was somehow held back for the first four albums because he put on a master class on the last one, truly amazing drumming that finally fit the songs. It's really too bad that he wasn't utilized fully throughout his tenure. That being said, I also prefer Portnoy and am glad he's back because of all the reasons you mention. His groove and feel is more important than his chops of which he also has in spades.
I approve of this intermediary content!
Great talk my friend, I can still not believe for myself that I will see DT and Portnoy live again 😱 especially as I joined a DT tribute band as drummer completely inspired by Portnoy….. and what a disaster when he left.
My summary ….. is that I always, without exception, rewinded a track of Portnoy to relisten what the fuck I just heard, so creative…. which I never did since Mangini joined which basically confirms all what you just explained……
excitedly awaiting what will come 😅 Enjoy my friend
Mangini is Just a drummer
I believe it is clear you are happy with the news and that you consider MP a more natural fit for DT. I wholeheartedly agree with the view that MP brings many valuable things as you correctly explain in your video. I also believe Mangini has not been fully utilised as a resource by the band, starting with the sound of his drum kit in many of the studio albums.
However, let’s also be fair and remember that Portnoy was already showing signs of exhaustion and repetition in his last two albums with DT and that that people were already pointing that the band was becoming a bit too stale and kind of boring (this, in my view, is only true for Black Clouds, as I believe Systematic Chaos is a very fun album). Now, this does not mean the band has not become stale with Mangini too, despite the impressive ADTOE, everything that came later was a bit too unimpressive (I do not found the astonishing here, as that album at least was something different).
So, overall, while I agree that MP coming back brings excitement and makes me look forward to the next album, unlike with the last couple of releases, let’s not hold too high expectations, as we do not know what kind of portnoy we’ll be getting back: the creative force or the one that got too much on his comfort zone. Let’s wait and see. We all cherish the good old MP times.
Ps: the sad truth, however, is that none of this will fix the Labrie problem, which has been there for too long.
Right there are other factors, and like I said I'm apprehensive about being too optimistic.. I agree, black clouds was stale, and I imagine that's what made portnoy want to take a break.
And labrie... haha well...
ADTOE and View are my favorites.
I hate the triggered sounding snare that Mangini used on a lot of those records. I had thought it was at the band's insistence, but he used those sounds on his new solo stuff.
Excellent comparison and analysis. I did not waste those 27 minutes 😊
I liked the astonishing. Yes it may have been cheesy at some points but it had more great moments than bad I would say
I think it's 3 biggest problems were: drum production, it's length/lack of flow between tracks (start. stop. start. stop.), and the story being incomprehensible without additional material. Scenes was amazing because you could grasp the story through just the lyrics alone.
A lot of fans think of Portnoy's persona as that of a jackass
Not really a nice guy to fans
Mangini , a humble and friendly guy
This is insane!!!
07:50 "It's not going to be an extremely long video, I'll try to keep it as short as I possibly can". 🤔
Hahahah busted...
My thoughts?
Can't understand why Dream Theater, have replaced the World's GREATEST Drummer by getting the World's 2nd Greatest Drummer back??
Mangini ROCKS!
🤘🏻🥁🤘🏻
i like mike more
Hahah that's the winning answer
Dude, you are kidding right? The reunion has been there all along all these years. How can you not notice? Even though portnoy may not be a band member since 2012, patrucci and portnoy have been doing their own liquid tension together all these years. This indicated that they will join and do a final dream theater again.
This video is about Dream Theater..
I like both drummers but MM added refinement to DT, their last few albums are, in my opinion, the best they’ve put out. MP plays fills just to play them, MM plays fills that are well thought out and enhance the music overall. You can’t tell me DT music was as refined and intelligent with Mp them with MM. MP fanboys will never love MM, but MP couldn’t pull off half the parts MM created. He’s splitting his limbs and playing each with a different instrument, it’s beyond genius and something MP could never do..
Fanboys.. lol I think Mangini is a better drummer but not nearly as valuable to Dream Theater. What Portnoy brought to the table went beyond drumming..
And I know that ranking albums is a subjective thing but how do any of the new albums rival something like Six Degrees or Scenes? Those were the peak of their refinement imo.
DT music is in downfall since Systematic chaos. It is normal for such long lived band, as the creativity is not unlimited.
I’ll be honest. I’ve been a Dream Theater fan since first album. I saw them when they were still playing small clubs Images and Words and Awake tours. I then saw them with Mangini later on. I lost a lot of interest in Dream Theater after Portnoy left. I didn’t like the albums as much and I can’t put my finger on it but just happened to coincide around that time. I like Portnoy in Dream Theater better. 🤷♂️
Why not have 2 drummers?! DT would be amazing with two drummers of this caliber
You forgot to thank MM
Money is a reason…sales have been down for them…no doubt a management induced decision?
Could be, after all it was a factor when giving Portnoy the boot the first time. Unintended blowback for not being patient enough.
I don't think it's the main reason, though. I honestly think the lifelong comradery has more to do with it.
Great news imo, MM is a good drummer, but I feel Portnoy brought so much more to the song writing aspect of the band, there was a noticeable shift in the albums after MP left, and honestly, by noticeable I mean not as good. They still wrote some bangers but they were fewer and farther between compared to previous albums with MP working with the band
“Albums Not as good”..umm ok, sure thing sport…They were nominated for 2 Grammys and won one…while playing with MM. to say the music wasn’t as good is just a ridiculously dumb statement.
Grammy nominations are the last metric I would ever use to guage how good something is..
it's an opinion, bruh @@tnhpdc44
I guess you dont know that the Alien was written around a Mangini groove
Pale Blue dot also
Drummers who really know , prefer Mangini !
Drummers who prefer simpler , prefer Porknoy
The Alien is a little miquetoast if you ask me.
Production is more important than just strict drumming when it comes to DT, unless of course you only listen to one member of the band..
I'm not ok with this for a few reasons, but I'll make it short. I know [as a drummer myself] MM & MP are extreme drummers and there really is no "better than the other"! My problem with all this is, in my mind, as portrayed from the beginning, MP bailed on the band wanting to find himself. This had been conveyed by every member of the band how they were "blind-sided" by MP leaving. They were devastated and, in some instances, "pissed". They held the infamous drum auditions, which to me always looked like it was predetermined that MM was their choice. Now, no one will ever know what the real "back-room" deal was at that time but unless this was a completely orchestrated maneuver from the beginning that MP was going to "TAKE TIME OFF" and come back at a later time and MM was just a "filler", we'll never know! On the other hand, if the truth is in fact MP truly bailed out and MM was his replacement, how did this happen? It's no secret MP did have a change of heart shortly after he left. Was MM kicked to the curb after MP and JP finally cleared their differences or did MM get over it knowing DT would rather have MP in the drummers seat? We'll never know. I would feel a lot better about this if it came to light that MM chose to leave.
Fair points, however I think the only way that Portnoy would've been able to stay in DT circa 2010 was if he faked his way through touring and writing for all the years that followed.
I was always under the impression that Portnoy wanted them to take a break because he felt the band was getting tired and the material was getting stale, Black Clouds being pretty indicative of that (though there are some strong moments on it). I agree with him in that sense and it always felt to me that the other guys wanted to rush right back in the studio and keep the train rolling on new material and touring, without realizing that a break probably would've been a good move for the band as a whole.
@@RomanovaMusick Black Clouds was the second weak album after Systematic chaos. Probably they realized it too, but did not want the train stopping, as this is a business after all.
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26:58 oh no no no
Aside from Portnoy's personality, Mangini's parts will not ever be recreated unless you have Mangini play them. DT just took 10 steps back. Advice; never ever look through the rose-colored glasses. Taking an Ex back will just start the cycle all over again. However, I do understand, the "Buddy" aspect of their decision. Mangini is a first call Drummer and he'll be fine. Portnoy has just been given his last chance. Cheers 🍻
His personality is what carried the band, though. I'm still waiting to hear something Mangini played in a DT song that Portnoy wouldn't able to recreate or at the very least put his own spin on to make it work..
The only things I could see that ringing true for is in regard to his drum solos or etudes but this isn't a rehearsal closet at Berklee.. It's literally Portnoy's band haha
@@RomanovaMusick- Recreating and putting a spin on something are two very different things.
Portnoy lacks hand and foot technique. He has limited rudimental skills, even his stick grip looks uncomfortable, rigid and wonky. Sure it works for him, but it's very limited. You can hear the lack of refinement in his playing. To faithfully recreate Mangini's parts one needs to have command of their technical facility.
Portnoy would need to take years off to work up to the level of technique and limb interdependence Mangini employed with DT. I doubt that's going to happen.
It's more likely that he'll put his own spin on them.
Portnoy is 'very limited?'.... I'm just gonna do a hard no on that. Still, I'm waiting for someone to give me an example of a part that Mangini has played within a DT song that Portnoy wouldn't be able to play from a technical standpoint.
With that said, I think feel is way more important at the end of the day anway.
@@danlc95I'd rather prefer Portnoy's take on Mangini's drum parts, as they are quite uninteresting for me. But in reality I don't care, as the music they create is boring since quite a long time ago.
@RomanovaMusick - It's all through the first release he did with them.
On The Backs Of Angel's is full of things Portnoy would struggle with reproducing faithfully.
You're going to use a subjective as your final point? That's fine, but you are assuming Mangini's playing doesn't have feel. It does. The problem is that you've been worshipping a sloppy drummer for years, thinking that's the final say on matters. It isn't.
Portnoy is sloppy as hell.
Saying that there's only a bit of a technical difference between the two is not true. Actually, several lies made me stop half way of the video. I'm a Portnoy fanboy btw, but this is crazy.
In the context of Dream Theater, Portnoy is better. Where's the lie?
@@RomanovaMusick absolutely, MP is better for DT, as a producer and as an artist. But the music decline was not MM's responsibility, it was Petrucci's as a producer.
MM (I would call him the architect instead) could've been like Jordan in 99, but everyone blamed him like he's the one responsible for the "Frozen" sound on the astonishing.
@@JoolsGuitar Sure, but not having a counter to Petrucci's ideas certainly didn't help. Portnoy filled that role. Mangini didn't.
@@RomanovaMusick yeah, but that's unfair against MM. They hired a drummer, then the drummer received all the backlash for the production. And that's my point, if Derek was the producer, people would have called Jordan "a Juilliard guy".
Anyway, fun chat. Subscribed
@@JoolsGuitar it's not unfair, Mangini needs to weather the same scrutiny that Portnoy would have in that position.
Very well said. As a drummer I couldn't explain this better. MM is an awesome drummer. Just plays to much as a machine. Hope to see them all stay friends. He carried the spirt of DT and should thanked. Thanks MM.
Your assessment of saying Portnoy excels at a technical level that can play almost anything he wants and that he is a drummer's drummer could not be farther from the truth.
Mike Portnoy knows 2 rudiments; singles and doubles. He could NEVER play in a band like Chick Corea, jazz/swing or anything Latin like Weckl, Colaiuta, Gadd, Bissonette, H.Hernandez, B.Stewart, J. Hamilton G.Novak, Phillips, Steve Smith, Jimmy Branly, Donati, Lang or Minnemann to name a few. He is not in their league.
Portnoy is a music fans drummer; a drummer that impresses crowds with quads, double bass and hand/foot combinations. Stuff that sounds hard, but isn't.
A drummers drummer is someone that has finesse, dynamics, incredible rudimental knowledge, use/application, dynamics and touch; every drummer I mentioned plus C.Coleman, G. Harrison, D.Chambers, Garstka, Borlai, Sucherman, D.Dicenso, K.Carlock and so on.
When it comes to technical, Portnoy is NOT on Mangini's level. I get a kick out of how MP was touted as an incredible technical player (yes he's great at odd times) but when MM showed up and showed what technical really is (as you stated; "all those things in MP's column are more important than anything that you can technically play") technical was dropped from the descriptions of MP and then it was, "He has great feel and groove." when nobody used those 2 words to describe him. Not that he doesn't, but it was always "Technical."
Lastly, character; Portnoy is a control freak, ego driven douchebag with an 8th grade maturity level. Look at his social media bullshit that his wife even got involved in. Or his bullshit in Milan.
Mangini is a class act. Humble, respected, not desperate to be the center of attention (Portnoy's need for a mic in every situation) and is just a likeable guy. Met him once and had a nice talk with him. Friendly approachable guy.
I never said Portnoy was a better technical player than Mangini.. and he is a drummer's drummer, because it's mostly drummers that care about him and his contributions, not regular ass people on the street.
You seemed to miss the entire point of the video. Everything here is within the context of Dream Theater. It's not a whose who of the greatest drummers of all time.
I've asked this of multiple people. Give me a Mangini part within a DT song that Portnoy would not be able to perform under any circumstances. I've been waiting and so far I've gotten nothing.
Last thing I'll say is in response to your final paragraph.. 'My neighbors a great dude and plays the drums but he fuckin sucks.' What I just said holds about the same weight and adds nothing to the conversation, although I did meet Mike Portnoy once and he was very nice to me. I'm sure Mangini is a nice guy too. Whoopee.
@@RomanovaMusick You said that in a technical sense Portnoy can play of a level pretty much anyone could play at. Not true. But hey if you can't hear the difference in Portnoy compared to Virgil, Lang, Minnemann, Gartska, Colaiuta, S.Phillips, Gavin Harrison and the like, you never will.
Drummers drummer; Put Vinnie, Chambers, Weckl, S.Smith, Garstka, Bissonette, Greb, Lang, Sucherman, Donati, Minnemann, G. Novak and Portnoy in a room where they all play at the Drum Channel or Modern Drummer Mag. Portnoy will be the least talked about the next day when it comes to skills. Not saying he sucks of course. The others are at a different level.
What can MM do that MP cant; Rudiments. It's in Mangini's playing on octobans and the snare in many places; The Alien, Enigma Machine. And MP can't match Petrucci's/Mangini's hits, jabs and matched parts note for note in intricate parts at Mangini's level. On Pale Blue Dot and many other places including live Mangini plays extremely quick 16th note hihat/ride patterns with 1 hand. Just to name a few things.
I'm just going to assume you don't play drums because saying Portnoy's single stroke playing is technically at the level of all the others I have named is very inaccurate.
It's like the guys that love Neil (I'm one of them) that say Neil can play jazz because he played the Buddy Rich Memorial. He did that night and it was mediocre at best. It's not his thing.
You keep avoiding the point of the video, though.. point is he's at a high enough level to be compared with those guys you named plus be a darling of modern drummer for his entire career basically.. and he can do that WITHOUT being technically as strong as the drummers you named. It boils down to STYLE at the end of the day.
I'm not a drummer by trade but I do play enough to understand what's happening. I don't see why Portnoy wouldn't be able to perform those songs at a level that's just fine. I didn't see Mangini faithfully represent Portnoy's drumming, and apparently that should've been a lot easier according to you lol
Bickering about how good this guy is, how good that guy is, who cares.. He's in the top percentile regardless and the song is what matters at the end of the day.
@RomanovaMusick like I said and I knew. You are not a drummer. You found a guy that does a bunch of stuff that you like, which is fine, but the fact you said you don't like or listen to the Mangini era stuff says it all.
And it also proves that you can't point out the difference between MP and Marco Minnemann for example. You just won't let the truth be spoken.
It's cool. Portnoy counts on guys like you.
@@mikeb598 Splitting hairs, my friend. I'm talking about who is a better fit for the band. Period.
I couldn't imagine hinging my opinion on what rudiments I'm hearing during any given song, because that's not what makes a song. That's like complaining that a guitarist doesn't use sweep picking or economy picking.
Portnoy will never reproduce what Mangini did. The band took a nosedive for the worst. Portnoy left. Why come back? Sad day. I hope Mangini's work is locked away in a vault. This is such a joke.
Portnoys one of the primary reasons the band exists in the first place. You're out your dang mind.
They'll at least land where they were before Portnoy left.
Portnoy isn't going to level up. He's been steady for thirty years. They'll be just fine.
That being said, I could see them asking Mangini back if they have the time. Age is a funny thing.
@@danlc95 MP has been regurgitating the same fills/ideas for decades in every project. I always found it funny when he said the band was getting stale. Guess he never looked in the mirror much.
You do realize that in itself is a moment of self reflection, correct? They were getting stale by 2010.. and then got even more stale..
@@RomanovaMusick When he joined TWD he had a small kit he said, "I'm reinventing myself." That was funny. Same old stale bag of tricks on a smaller kit.
Your a biased fanboy
Yeah biased toward reality