Ora Funky Cat EV full review - the Chinese Fiat 500e rival
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 4 มิ.ย. 2024
- Ora Funky Cat full review - the new EV rival to Fiat 500 and Mini e. Could this Chinese electric supermini be the best new small EV on sale?
The £31,995 GWM Ora Funky Cat supermini has a 200-mile range with a 48kWh lithium-ion battery pack and 171PS / 250NM front-wheel drive motor. GWM stands for Great Wall Motors, and the Ora brand is pure EV. Jonny Smith has already filmed a walk around first look on the Cat for the channel, but finally he drove the car. Is it a worthy rival to the Fiat 500e or Mini-e?
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Filmed and edited by: Matty Graham @ Pixel Click www.pixel-click.com/
Thumbnail by: Matt Tarrant www.matttarantdesign.com
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Jonny Smith
Creative content maker, car presenter & car pervert for hire since '98
Website: www.carpervert.com
Instagram: / jonnycarpervert
Twitter: / carpervert
CHAPTERS
0:00 Intro
1:34 Charging stats
2:10 Performance stats
2:22 Colour options
3:05 Road driving
4:30 Rivals
6:12 Dimensions
8:23 Interior materials
9:40 Crashing
10:14 Rear design
10:43 Boot space
11:16 City driving
11:56 Voice control
12:53 Cabin design
15:02 Meatloaf?
16:17 Infotainment
18:00 Voice commands
19:33 Rear seats
21:40 Faster driving
23:14 0-62
27:04 Verdict
#oracat #bestsmallev #orafunkycat #thelatebrakeshow - ยานยนต์และพาหนะ
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I would not have the Chinese collecting any more data of me than they already do. And this collects it all, the voice, the cameras etc. There is no such thing as truly private company in China. If data is the new oil, just look at what happened with the Russia and the plain old oil. I do appreciate the Chinese making seemingly better quality products though and pushing the industry
Very interesting take on the situation, and one we should all consider. How precious are we about data security and personal information/habits? Also, will legacy manufacturers survive this torrent of newer, fast growing brands?
@@TheLateBrakeShow I think judging by the years of ordering products from China as a producer, the number of times in detail products needed to be fully fully explained. I think they would struggle to understand our data. Also all mobile phones are made in China and already have that data they want. Iphones are made in China for example, now who doesnt have one ?
USA and its allies have long demonized China by using their strong media discourse power, which has indeed achieved the goal of brainwashing many people.
For more than 40 years, China is the only major power in the world that has not had military conflicts with other countries. China has never colonized or invaded other countries, but has only become a world-class industrial power through the efforts of its own people and government, which has never happened in history.
However, the mainstream media in the West have convinced many people that China is the greatest threat to world peace!
@@ortontom There is a lot of independent security research that examines the phone ecosystems i.e. the devices, the services and the infrastructure. If all or most of those pieces, not just manufacturing, are under Chinese control there is way of knowing. Thus the regulation of Huawei. I agree that currently the ease and capability to use massive amounts of data is limited, but collecting the data for later use is trivial. Also targeting individuals based on that data is also easy. You might not be a hive value target now, but who knows about tomorrow. Also even a small, long term influence might have consequences, which is the argument commonly used against TikTok. I’m not very worried about today, I just don’t trust the Chinese companies respecting privacy of user at all and I do believe that the Chinese government will use all the means they are given to expand their influence.
@@TheLateBrakeShow For decades, they have done all they can to create barriers of entry. Five star euro NCAP rating for this and zero for Zoe is an example of that strategy failing. I’m sure the Europe will probably attack and win the fight for data collection, but I’m not sure if it will be all for the benefit of the consumer. I would welcome these new designs and improved quality warmly if I trusted the operating system.
Love the way the airbag makes a sad face when crashing at @10:07
The “FUNKY CAT” badge is a prime candidate for some subtle mods.
That badge is awful - it's an exclamation mark (!) lol. They need to work on having a better badge. lol
The brand name and the exclamation are an unfortunate combo written together Ora!.
For some reason, I'm still always completely enthralled with in-depth reviews of interesting cars I'll never have access to here in the states.
The bat out of hell rendition earned a like 😂
I wouldn't mind seeing some of these out and about, they're a nice looking thing really and the interior is very inviting. Feels a better blend of physical and digital controls than some EVs, so that's neat too. Doesn't seem as claustrophobic inside as some cars in this class and the fact the interior is an actual colour is very appealing. What really needs to happen now is for Ora to team up with Kia and make a special edition of some sort in orange.
It's Cool for Cats 👍 Love it, great to see a bit of colour and funkiness in a car again, the more the merrier.
Brilliant reviews Jonny, always enjoy them 🍻
i really love that the car doesn’t use any of the ray-gun design language (sharp corners and creases and sticky-out bits for no reason) that everyone else overdoes these days…
aggressive styling is always better for cars than putting wheels on a bar of soap.
Which is really funny to me, because the thing this car reminds me of the most styling-wise...is Euclid's C-Finder and the Alien Blaster, both from Fallout: New Vegas.
Champing at the bit Jonny my friend, not chomping! Love your reviews, just so chill yet informative + your shoes are epic.
Great to see some honest journalism, personally I wouldn’t go for it on external looks but the interior detailing is fantastic, certainly puts MINI to shame (and I’ve been in the BMW Network for 20 years!). Great work 👍
Many thanks for the reply. A few people mention that we are 'advertising' Chinese car brands. We don't advertise any cars - we review them. There is a difference.
I agree, your approach is always open and honest, the reality is there are a lot of new brands entering the market and the public should be able to access independent reviews so customers can make an informed choice, keep doing what you’re doing, informative, humorous, real and great production values…👍
It’s just a shame you’ll get into immense trouble once something is wrong.
I don't think it competes with the 2 door MINI aside for range and tech, let alone putting it to shame. The driving dynamics don't seem as good.
There's a new electric MINI coming out soon.
The wheels remind me of my 1992 Eunos Roadster 🤣
Wonderful review but I can't believe that the indicator noise won't get annoying
Hello from Warwick! I think I saw you filming this, and was amazed to see a car called a Funky Cat. I may have laughed a bit.
I did actually think it was a competitor test from JLR though, but now I know it was a LBS recording!
It is instantly appealing as it is indeed different and colourful, sick to death of black interiors and aggressive, horrid styling from most (especially German) brands. Its fun and appealing and you are right - we need more cheer! The one thing I really dislike about the Funky Cat is that TINY rear window! It's terrible! Otherwise a brilliant car. Great review Jonny
And like the MG4, no rear wiper - how was it on this rainy day I wonder?
@@peterwells2142 I don't have a rear wiper on my Mazda 3 and it's fine, I didn't notice the lack of it for months 😅
@@opjoter Was it the summer? ;)
Yes, I would have one of these. Small cars should be fun, and have good value. This seems to achieve both.
Really enjoyed this review!
I love characterful cars so this certainly ticks that box.
However, that indicator sound would drive me NUTS...!! 🤣
Not sure if it's just the interior colour scheme & styling (oh, and possibly the headlights), but this one kept reminding me of the Figaro!
I agree, there needs to be more cars that are friendly-looking and colourfull, in the current sea of angry cars in grey-scale colours - I'm liking this Cat, even if I am a dog-person! Those twin humps in the bonnet reminds me of those on Mercedes SL/SLK/AMG GT etc. Great review as always. - Sadly, the Funky Cat will not be called that here in Sweden - instead it will have a gereric and quite boring numbers/letters combo that I allready have forgotten what it was... I am quite bummed out about that!
Lol, I agree Niklas as I'm a dog person also, but I love this funky little car!
Jonny: Thank you for the very helpful review. Does Great Wall Motors track each of its cars like Tesla? What is their policy about access to the driver's information captured through the car's electronic system such as face recognition, location, and voice interaction? It's something I've been looking for in EV reviews and haven't heard about. Thanks again.
Great review. Been top of my radar for a 2023 purchase but really disappointed the UK first edition doesn’t have the panoramic sunroof. They also need some better wheel options.
Forget to mention how much I appreciate the infotainment not sticking up above the dash, so long items can go there when needed. Small cars and even sedans (gasp) can be practical when you don't make silly design decisions.
Really enjoy Jonny's thoughtful reviews.
Once again. £31k is not cheap at all.
Yes 100% this. It’s easy to say something is cheap when you are not paying for it
Cheap(ish) relative to the market (and the cars it's 'competing' with - the MG4 is about the same price, the Honda E is significantly more expensive, iirc... think the 500e is too, but not sure). Unfortunately, everything is getting more expensive (and fast), and EVs are still coming with the 'new tech' penalty on the price.
Perhaps Ora should consider bringing their considerably cheaper White cat and Black cat
It’s cheap in China, but obviously not in Europe. Just being honest, I won’t buy this card for this price
the sad smiley on the drivers airbag in crash clip is hilarious
I'm so glad I followed you over here dude. You give the best down to earth reviews.
Hello Jonny. The HaoMao is called Good Cat in Asian markets. Why it is called Funky Cat in UK is weird.
I can see by the close-up of the wheels that it's rolling on Giti Tires; there's a good chance that tyres from a higher tier tyre manufacturer would address the grip and interior noise levels.
Thanks for the review Jonny, here's hoping that more affordable small EVs will be coming from China soon, e.g. the BYD Dolphin.
Good point on the tyre grade.
I've never even heard of Giti Tires!
@@cameronwood1994 there's a good reason for that......
I’ve always put all season tyres on my EVs and it transforms the grip for front wheel drive cars. Rear wheel drive is by far the best layout for EVs though. MG4 for the win!
@@clc2328 Not having heard of them here in the West doesn't mean they're automatically bad.
Great review, makes me want to look into getting one next time round.
I love how it looks; your comment about this being what the Nissan Leaf should have been is bang-on. I'm sure we're heading (quickly) for a future where there's huge variation in bodies-on-generic-rolling-platform within a single brand group, with hopefully a lot more customisation in trim/paint. Anyway, this looks funky, and the interior -looks- great as well. They've come a long way with their own designs in a short time; just as the Japanese and Koreans before them did.
The ideal car for Mrs Slocombe... Cheers for the vid :D
Reckon GW should do a more powerful, performance with long range version. Call it Macho Tough Tomcat:)
I can't go to EV when I know for the price of a new one of these I can pick up an immaculate w204 C63 , yes running costs will be much higher but so will the fun and laughter.
ORA not afraid to be different. With so many elements of design from different cars, think it should do ok, as long as support is there from manufacturer. That road in the last segment Jonny, I've driven that so many times, and it has everything, awesome bit of tarmac, excellent, consise and honest, brilliant video
Awesome, thanks Jonny. Might buy one of these over an electric Mini
My only issue with these obscure brands is warranty backup and getting parts in the long term
Plus value. It will lose 90% of its value in less than 5 years.
Quite keen on this one - I'm in Australia and I've seen an evaluation car on the street while driving to work, so hopefully they'll sell it here. The styling has won my wife over already, particularly the interior (with actual colour!). If they're sensible about pricing it could sell a few units.
Im looking forward to the dolphin, cat, etc finally arriving down under. Might finally be able to replace the Prius c with a real EV at last.
Brilliant car review as per usual. So informative and shows things that other reviewers dont. Have Vauxhall seen this as it looks just like an Adam lol
Thanks for another great review Jonny. I think the 15% to 80% charge time statistic is useful, as that would be a good range to use for road trips, keeping a safe margin at the bottom and minimizing total charge time by stopping at 80%. The charge time would also be sufficient for a good washroom and food or coffee break
15% to 80% is meant to make the batteries last longer in the long term too
@@RWL2012 Yeah it's similar to mobile phone charging. When you charge that last 20% takes much longer to charge than the first 20% too.
As usual all the TH-cam reviews of this car dropped at the same time. I watched them all and was very surprised at the differences in opinion expressed about this car by the different reviewers……vive La difference I suppose? However, as usual your own and Fully Charged’s reviews were head and shoulders above the others…content, production values etc etc. Well done and thank you 👍
Had no idea it was so tall until the shot of you standing beside it, the proportions are just odd!
Thank you Jonny and as you say, very 'interesting' and certainly appears to be good value.
Don't think you mentioned it and perhaps it may have been the position of the mike in the car, but that indicator sound drove me nuts.
As always, great review.
i am a cat man also . this cat is a top cat. great review as always j
at 31k needs a 250 mile + range to compete with mg4
Will have one next September when I change the smart EQ. Love the interior.
The driving background noise on this vid, reminds me of my local laundry on a busy Sunday morning. The funk (that’s what I would call it) is the kind of EV I will probably end up with, when I’m old and need assistance.
That indicator noise would do my head in
Great review, it's a cute looking car, especially inside. From your experience I'd be interested to know if it would be suitable to first time EV-ers, or does it not really matter, and it just behaves... well, like a car?
It drives better than Jonny expected. The interior is a special place to be. In the real world you can expect 175 mile range.
If it was made in Europe then it would be exciting. It is a very attractive creation and “we” could learn a lot from it…but I am not buying one at any price. An excellent review Jonny….if only history had been better and you were driving the latest Morris Minor…(I’m not a fan of the Minor but it was a huge influence at its time). 🤔🤔😬😀😀😀
@@HQBProductions Where was the device you typed this on made?
The only worry I have is the plastic seats, living in Queensland I think I would need to fit covers on the seats to prevent third degree burns.
Thank you! Forwarded this to my daughter.....her name is Kitty too ✌️
Should sell well I think. It sounds as though it'll do all the things you want a small to medium sized car to do. Overall and not having actually met either I think I'd go for the MG4, but it's a good competitor.
Come on Jonny at least you could have dressed up for the occasion 😄
Um..... whiskers?
@@TheLateBrakeShow funky outfit
@@TheLateBrakeShow dressed up like Mr Mistoffelees?
Will they still name it Funky in US? Funky means smelly, or gone off there.
Dress up like George Galloway in big brother and meow
Today I opened TH-cam and found 3 separate reviews of this in my subscriptions…says a lot that this is the one I’ve decided to watch
👊🏽
Looking forward to seeing the Funky cat in Australia. Great video . thanks, carl
I love it.. happy looking car. We need more cars like this
I do think they should have consulted with a UK PR firm before deciding on the name. Can you imagine an old Gent (complete with Bowler and Brolly) telling his mates he drives a 'Funky Cat'!🤣
I worked for GWM. The eMotor and Inverter are from the team I managed. The IGBT used was a custom design for GWM.
This is how to do motoring shows! TG could learn a thing or to as this is interesting and informative! Most people couldn’t care less about super cars! Great stuff!
Another good review Johnny. I have to say though, I can’t get excited about this. I think I’d rather have the base spec version of the Cupra Born that you reviewed recently. Looks a lot nicer and much nicer detailing (although crappy infotainment might grate). Cheers
I recently bought a Cupra and I have to say I’m delighted with it. The infotainment system is fine, it’s a bit annoying having everything on the touch screen but you get used to it. The system itself is relatively simple and functional though and I haven’t had any problems so far.
I think 15-80% is referenced because that is the range to keep the battery working for longer. Fully charging or depleting the batteries reduce battery life and capacity. (Not an expert)
And that is generally the range where you actually reach maximum charging speed.
Charging from 80 to 100% generally takes longer as charging from 20 to 80%. All ev's have this pretty much.
It is done to limit heat and degrading the battery mostly indeed.
Always makes me laugh that EV manufacturers quote range when 100% charged, but “time to charge” to 80%
You should have finished with: has the cat caught your tongue. Great show Jonny, as always, no one, not even Jack on the FCShow can match your motoring journalism.
Very impressed at you matching your Jordans to the interior colour there Jonny 😅
Never a coincidence...
Assumed as much! Here’s hoping you manage to get a pair of the Lost and Found on Friday.
Great review of the Cat. How the sales will perform now the MG4 has entered the marketplace. If it had been launched a year ago at the price stated hen I think it would be the leading small EV. They missed the boat with the delay and other makers have models that are priced competitively.
I think this might appeal more to the female market, it a cuter an less aggressive LOOKING car than the MG4.
Seen 4 release reviews of this car. Clearly Ora briefed everyone the same (funky unlock lights/facial thingy/open windows by voice, including a chance to try out your various stereotype accents/wet Solihull) and many of the reviews just trot out the makers verbage almost in the same order they were fed it.
JS did not stick just to the Ora script and as such is the best real review of them. Based on his motoring experience and a life long knowledge of vehicles past he can speak with some authority rather than, like a kitty after a bad vole, regurgitate what its been fed by the company.
Keep up the good work.
Philip, appreciate your comment and glad you could differentiate between Jonny's opinions, the facts and the PR spiel.
That indicators noise would drive me mad. It sounds like a water leak, always good to see some competition out there
Great review, I liked it last year when I saw your walk around and was wondering how it would drive. How does it compare to the mg4 ? although it is more expensive it seems. Also the real world range is still a question.
Interesting review and intriguing how EVs are developing and disrupting the established brands. I'll have an Ora punk cat if they decide to sell them here ;)
Yes, or a Bat out of Hell edition for me! :)
Now watching with my morning tea 😀🍵
Great review mate
The fact it sounds like you're inside a washing machine is presumably the dodgy mic. Good to see a production model a year on from your preview, it has some attractive features.
Not a great fan of electric cars, but that's a nice looking little car. As a pet name it's got to be 'Rita', as in Ora!
Great review. Another great addition to the EV ranks. I was sure this was going to be a very cheap entry to the UK market though so £30k+ seems a bit pricey but is still price competitive to the other EVs at this price point, so no biggie. Appears very well equipped also. Great Wall are partnering with MINI for the next MINI 2nd gen EV.
yep me too I think £30k+ is a bit too rich for me
honestly its criminal, top trim is 16-18k USD in China
@@hwong1776 20% in UK vs 0% of BEV china, 20% of 18000 is 3600, so that bring up the price to 21600, add the cost of transporting it from China to UK, another 1000k and 22600. Plus add extra cost to cover the redesigning the car for left hand drive, UK and having to build a seperate production line another couple of k per car, add on top the costs of meeting UK regulations. I did read that this one has some additional tech Chinese cars don't have. The dealers will want a bigger cut of the sales than their Chinese counter parts because they got higher costs.
Suddenly you can see the price creeping up to 31,000. Plus entering in to the market with a model clearly being branded first edition, give them some manoeuvrability to lower prices in the future.
Mini Macan with early Boxter style wheels, swap the badges for Porsche no one will know. Leatherette seats bring back bad memories on hot days .
Finally, someone's picked up on the wierd Chinese wheel arch gap phenomenon.
I just don't think I could bring myself to tell people I drive a funkycat.
Don't thing they realised what it would end up being called in this country
Probably says more about you than the car
Took a double take at the red/cream interior, near enough identical to my Fiat 500, with 4 doors this is certainly a contender to the Fiat 500e..👍
Exactly. Right?
Really nice good looking car. Interior looks of good quality rather then cheap tat. My thought on the price was that 31k was steep but I'm probably ignorant of new car prices today.
Hi Jonny. Get yourself a DJI mic. Integrates with all normal cameras and phones but also has a backup internal recording at the transmitter. No lost/garbled audio ever again. Cheers. Ed. Ps love the content.
This is the first small electric car that would actually tempt me down the EV route. It looks fabulous and judging by the fun you had on the back roads it'd be a hoot to drive around here (Cairngorms). Unfortunately my nearest dealer will be in Glasgow which is a fair old schlepp away!
Interesting reckon at £27k would really shake the market up.
First! Never been this early, but I absolutely adore your videos. No matter the topic, it gets me relaxed enough to sleep, and not many things do that anymore. Thank you for all you do.
Thank you Jeffrey, hopefully not so relaxed you are bored?
Nice to see you’re in Warwick Jonny. 👍
I do love the look of this cat. Would definitely consider one
This Chinese ev revolution reminds me of the Japanese and Korean ones that we've had during the years. We need more funky looking cars like this. Another brilliant review 👍
Heard this somewhere - what the Japanese achieved in 30 years, the Koreans did in 20, and the Chinese will in 10… I suppose whoever said that was right?
Thank you for the review.
I would like to comment on the voice commands that most manufactures make a mistake on...
1) Hello ora / Mercedes....
2) yes - i am listening
3) question.....
This is slow and requires a 3 step communication which is not ideal in a car.
Better (as found in Tesla)
1) press button on steering wheel
2) ask question.
You loose the wait with the 2 way communication - it becomes a "single" action since the button press under your thumb is easy and does not require thought or waiting to see if Ora/mercedes heard you.
This is why voice commands don't work in cars as they are implemented wrong, especially since the Ora seams to have a good understanding of the voice commands.
aaah, your Rode mic ran out of battery or something? So you had to use the GoPro audio during the drive? It happens :)
Fantastic review, as usual. Great car, pity it's so much more costly than the MG4.
Looks fun. Ora could do a small motorbike, they could call it the Funky Moped. No? How about a bigger version of the Cat called the Funky Gibbon. Oh well, suit yourself.
Lol, have to to be of a certain age to remember those iconic moments in life. (Probably be in the cancel culture cross hairs as we speak)
😂😂😊👍
Thing is Jonny, you are now registered on all Chinese espionage systems so other similar devices will track you anywhere on the globe, along with all the other buyers of so-fitted equipment!!!
Reminds me of an Opel Adam .. loving the interior looks beautiful.
Let’s hope that china start bringing Aston Martin looks into the EV market, I think there could be a huge market for cheaper well built good looking cars …
If its the same company great wall make electrical items such as power supplies for computers. Very high quality also for a reasonable price, they are often rebranded as the top name products we know here in the west.
I really liked this when you reviewed it last year, it's such a refreshing design especally in the tone colours.
I'm seeing a miniture Porsche Macan here, say what you want about the Chinese but they are releasing some intersting EV's aswell as the Koreans.
Also loving the #synthwave track too, I would love to know who it is?
Very popular here in Thailand relatively speaking for the still tiny EV market. Compelling option for sure.
How much is it in USD in Thailand ? Thanks.
@@stevenjones916 Starting $27,700 before subsidies
Super helpful! I’ll be getting one 👍
Really appreciate what Ora are doing with this car. I think for the right person this is an ideal purchase.
I feel the name and exterior styling isn't going to do it any favours with certain markets, the price I feel is too high for an unknown brand particularly in the UK and for me I just wouldn't purchase a car like this until it is 'proven'. I am currently in the market for a small EV for my partner and at the moment this just wouldn't make the shortlist. Still swaying more towards a HondaE.
I have a MG4 on order but really prefer the interior and also maybe the exterior of this car. Every thing works and it seems beter finished. But of course its more expensive than the base MG. As usual, great review.
MG4 definitely has a better external design, faux retro looks always age badly
Great review, thanks Jonny. £31k is still a lot of money for what is bascially just a small cheerful little hatchback.
I do worry slightly about these sensors that are vacuuming up our biometric data (facial recognition etc) - the car is internet connected, where is that data going, what data centres are storing it, who has access to the data... yes yes I know, tin-foil hat brigade alert.
It's not just Ora to be fair to them, pretty much all new cars are 'syncing data to cloud' and we just accept it and move on with a shrug..
Was just gonna say that all cars do it. I bet tesla knows first when a flu epidemic is comming. Even before docters even have a clue or you yourself know yourself they already know you will be sick tomorow.
💯
I think of the Fiesta as a little hatchback ... the Ora isn't particularly little ... nearer to a Focus than a Fiesta (despite the fact that even a Fiesta is bigger than an old Austin Maxi of yesteryear, which was regarded as a big car ... oh how things have changed!)
@@MrAdopado and these ev's generally are concidered a class higher then ice cars of the same size. A fiesta sized ev generally offers the cabin space of a focus. And a focus sized one the cabin space of a mondeo etc.
solid review of an interesting car...love the name!
It would be great to see a cabriolet version of this, like the 500e. I actually like the wheels, they remind me of a classic rally wheel which I think suits the car
Great to see the Ora Funky Cat has finally arrived. I'd imagine it would be on many people's wish list.
Very nicely put together and styled, but the MG 4 has rattled the market in terms of affordability, that car goes further and charges faster and costs less with more space. I think the price is too high for what you get overall.
This does have a much nicer (to look at, at least) interior. The MG4 is like all business, dark grey suit.
@@0tispunkm3y3r exactly - why do people seem to think that everyone will buy the MG because it's cheaper etc...!?
We don't think that way about other stuff we buy!! We buy what we like.....
People whine on about efficiency - they never mentioned that when buying a petrol car, did they!?
You buy what you 'LIKE'! It is and always has been, a heart over head thing....
@@andymccabe6712 I've noticed a lot with EVs that people seem to judge the cars like they judge smartphones; by the spec sheet. what it's actually like to hold and use is secondary. Rather bizarre!
@@0tispunkm3y3r agreed. And it’s nice we have the choice.
The Ora Funky Cat press embargo has apparently broken! Johnny Smith HAS to be the first review I watch! 🥰 Seems like plenty to like, though that cam angle staring right at the gubbins visible in the big gap between the steering column trim and the wheel, is not its best angle!