Do You Need Vinegar In Your Tempeh?

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  • เผยแพร่เมื่อ 18 ธ.ค. 2024

ความคิดเห็น • 56

  • @oldmanbrown1086
    @oldmanbrown1086 13 วันที่ผ่านมา

    Thank you for this video and all your educational support. You are a wonderful tempeh maker and human.

    • @francius1003
      @francius1003  12 วันที่ผ่านมา

      You are welcome! Thank you for subscribing to this channel. Let tempeh be the healthy meat substitute for many people. Good luck!
      Francius

  • @AlexEatsPlants
    @AlexEatsPlants 3 ปีที่แล้ว +8

    Hi Francius!
    Thanks for sharing your perspective on this topic, really enjoyed the video|
    My understanding is that the _bad bacteria_ come mostly from the starter, not the beans themselves (like you point out, the heat from the cooking process kills the nasty pathogens). The starter, however, may not be pure _Rhizopus_ spores, depending on how it was made, and sometimes there are trace amounts of other fungi and/or bacteria. Vinegar _discourages_ the growth of some bacteria - but not all! There's a great study from last year where they look at this (you can google for "Tempeh: A semicentennial review on its health benefits, fermentation, safety, processing, sustainability, and affordability"). Vinegar only kills about two of the six strains of bacteria they looked at.
    I agree with you that is an extra cost. Plus, frying is perhaps the most common method of cooking tempeh, and that kills pretty much anything growing on tempeh. I personally use vinegar, because I only do small batches for myself and my family and I like to play around with different substrates, some of which are much more prone to toxin-producing molds than soybeans. That said, were I to produce my tempeh for selling, I would most likely skip the vinegar and just make sure to keep the process as clean as possible and always advise customers to not eat the tempeh raw ;)
    Thanks for the video!

    • @francius1003
      @francius1003  3 ปีที่แล้ว +5

      Hi, Alex!
      Thanks for your thoughtful input. I agree with you we don't live in a germ-free world. All of the videos that ask for vinegar are saying to prevent bacteria from interfering with the fermentation process, not about hygienic in preparing our meals. We, Indonesian people, never eat raw tempeh, so the bacteria from the tempeh starter, if there is any, never have a chance to get into our bodies. Yes, the key to a healthy life is cleanliness, but do not overkill. It may cost us our life from a different path.
      Thanks again.
      Francius.

  • @rosswakelin5543
    @rosswakelin5543 ปีที่แล้ว +4

    Hi Francius!, thanks for your videos. I've been making tempeh since 1985, but am always curious to learn more. I have made tempeh both with and without acid addition, so agree with your point that it is not essential. However there are some other aspects. Some undesirable bacteria (like Bacillus cereus) are spore forming and can survive the cooking. The problem is not the bacteria themselves, but the toxin that they produce - so even if the tempeh is cooked and the bacteria killed, the toxin may still remain. Acidification may help slow their growth during the soaking and incubation. On the other hand, it is reported in the literature that vinegar can inhibit the Rhizopus mould growth, and that the Rhiopus itself supresses bacterial growth. That supports your contention that vinegar is not good for tempeh making. Some literature suggests that lactic acid is preferable to vinegar/acetic acid for tempeh making. One study even found that lactic acid promoted Rhizopus growth in liquid medium (though not in the tempeh cake itself). Where this relates to traditional Indonesian practices, it is common to find lactic acid bacteria in the beans (like L. plantarum), and if the soaking is warm enough these bacteria can produce enough lactic acid to acidify the soak water. Particularly if some of the soak water is backslopped from the previous batch. My home, north of the Arctic Circle, isn't as warm as traditional Indonesian conditions and I suspect natural acidification doesn't go far enough, so I will try incubating the soaking stage. Since acidification only slowed the bacterial growth, and did not kill them it was suggested by one article that acidification could mask the presence of harmful bacteria, and it might be preferable to not acidify the beans, to allow batches to fail when bacteria were present. The other point is that the acidification of the beans at the start of the process is usually neutralised by the byproducts of the fermentation. So when people say they could taste the vinegar in the product I wonder if they added too much
    There is a difference between production for home consumption, and for sale. In my country the regulations for production of food or drink for sale is easier for products that have been acidified during the production process. That is because common pathogens do not usually grow well in acidic environments. Without acid there are more requirements for documentation of the sterility of the production process. What I would like to find in the literature is a good quantitative study of the growth rate and toxin production by B. cereus in the tempeh process. But it is never possible to be completely sure, so I follow your approach of what is found to work in practice.

    • @francius1003
      @francius1003  ปีที่แล้ว +2

      Hi, Ross!
      Thank you for your comment and keen scientific observation on adding, or not adding, vinegar in tempeh making. My statement is based on thousands of years of traditional tempeh-making in Indonesia. I believe that we don't live in a sterile environment, and any precautions should be made to ensure those little creatures and the chemicals they produce don't get into our body system. But sometimes we have to live with it, and most of the time it even improves our immune system when our body tries to adapt to it. This channel is dedicated to promoting tempeh making as it was and still is, done by Indonesian people. We eat tempeh a lot and eat less processed food, simply because we can't afford it, and we are good.
      Thanks again for your excellent comment. Please share this channel with friends in the tempeh community,
      Francius

    • @Okkoson
      @Okkoson ปีที่แล้ว

      @@francius1003 its interesting that even traditional tempe making renders the bean slightly acidic by soaking it in water, spontaneously fermenting it!

  • @vincecombla7628
    @vincecombla7628 2 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Cheers again Francius for answering so many questions. I ve been growing mushrooms starting from spores or mycelium, it helps the mycelium if the substart is a bit acidic ( around 5,6 to 6.4) . Maybe the assumption came from that. it s just a guess anyway.
    once again , cheers Francius , the tempeh community will be for ever grateful

    • @francius1003
      @francius1003  2 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      Hi, Vince!
      If the vinegar is meant to help the mycelium grow in tempeh, then it is redundant because it grows with no problem without it. The traditional tempeh maker is true proof from thousand of years ago until now. I am not a mushrooms grower, but I believe you don't boil the substrate for mushrooms. In tempeh making you boil the substrate before inoculation. That is quite a difference.
      Cheers, Vince! Enjoy your tempeh! Let's make tempeh making as simple as possible!
      Francius

    • @vincecombla7628
      @vincecombla7628 2 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      @@francius1003 Yes we actually steam the substrat for mushroom growing, generally in an autoclave. Some people don t steam it but use chimicals to destroy the exicting bacteries in the substrat.
      Anyway from now I wont use vinegar in my tempeh.
      Thanks again for taking the time to answer

    • @francius1003
      @francius1003  2 ปีที่แล้ว

      You are welcome, Vince. Enjoy your tempeh without vinegar! :)

  • @JohnDulleckA
    @JohnDulleckA 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Hi Francius,
    Thank you for your videos on tempeh. They have inspired me to try a fermentation style other than lacto-fermentation and try making tempeh.
    I have a question though. My city-supplied water is sanitized with chloramines. Will chloramines interfere with the tempeh fermentation process? I understand that Campden tablets can be used to neutralize chloramine. Is this a safe alternative for tempeh production?
    Thanks! I look forward to reading your advice.

    • @francius1003
      @francius1003  3 ปีที่แล้ว

      Hi, John!
      Good luck to you on trying to make tempeh. It is the healthiest plant-based protein source!
      I use city water all the time, and all of us know city water is always treated with chemicals. But, it seems like it doesn't affect any fermentation process. No need to add more chemicals like Chamden tablet. Let me know your progress, and if you still have any questions just let me know.
      Francius

    • @francius1003
      @francius1003  3 หลายเดือนก่อน

      I use the same type of wate, no problem.

  • @pcrosby9
    @pcrosby9 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Great video! Thanks for clearing that up I always wondered why recipes called for vinegar. I have a food dehydrator that I use to maintain 88-90 degrees temperature I want to move away from using plastic bags if possible such as silicon containers so I've been researching different types of shallow container some that are already perforated but the holes seem a bit to big. I noticed you have a hole template, do you have a hole punch jig or do you punch them one at a time using the template? I made a jig but I worry I might be leaving small amounts of plastic fragments in the bag after I perforate the bag. Some people say the traditional method of using leaves gives the Tempeh a richer flavor but since I never tried it I can't say, I wonder if that is a myth too.

    • @francius1003
      @francius1003  3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      Hi, buddy!
      I don't have a hole punch jig, like the one used by large producers. My need doesn't dictate that yet. I use my hole template 6 bags at a time. Banana leaves do give a richer flavor, not only in tempeh but in any food or snack produced using them. It is also permeable, meaning 'perforated' by nature. It is a fact, not a myth. It is also environmentally friendly. The next choice is a glass pan. You can see in some of my videos I use a glass pan too, and it works just fine.
      Keep your tempeh healthy!
      Francius

    • @pcrosby9
      @pcrosby9 3 ปีที่แล้ว

      @@francius1003 I really enjoy your videos on reconstituting the starter too. I've been using a starter I get from a Amazon it's from Indonesia It's Wira Brand. The one I see that you use is the Ramprima Brand, I can't get that here locally and they don't sell it on Amazon. I found exporters to purchase it from but I don't trust them, do you have a reliable and trust worthy source you can suggest? I would appreciate it. Let me know. Thanks

    • @francius1003
      @francius1003  3 ปีที่แล้ว

      My agent in Indonesia: Tempebumbung. tempebumbung.wordpress.com/.
      You can email them tempebumbung@gmail.com and ask for the price including shipping. A couple of months ago I order 2 packs of 500 grams each, including shipping cost (I am in OR, USA) cost me $55, meaning $22.50 per pack of 500 grams. It arrived in 10 days, complete with an official health certificate from the government. Tell them I recommend them to you. You will be surprised, the price of 500 grams of Raprima in Indonesia is only $2, the shipping is crazy. But it is worth it, after this, you can make your own starter.
      Francius

    • @pcrosby9
      @pcrosby9 3 ปีที่แล้ว

      @@francius1003 Yeah that is the same company I contacted to. Amita told me it would be $62.00 for 2 bags 500g with shipping, I'm in Nevada. He said the cost is $14.50 each plus shipping. That means it cost $30.00 to ship. I'll try a beat him up on the price and see what happens. I knew it was a bit over priced. I like the idea of the health certificate but it may not mean much. I'll let you know what he says. Thanks

    • @francius1003
      @francius1003  3 ปีที่แล้ว

      Try to talk to Nurhasanah (Nunung). Tell her I recommend her to you.
      They are reliable.
      Francius

  • @lawrencemoss4164
    @lawrencemoss4164 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Thank you for the videos. I have tried 3 times and been unsuccessful at making Tempeh. I realize some of my mistakes now. I ended up ordering the same starter as you have from Indonesia. The one I use gets things started but after 3 days I start to see green mold. Your videos have helped me a lot, thank you.
    PS what is the max temp that Tempeh can withstand? Mine has gone up to 105. At one point it was 120 when I first started. Should I use fans to keep the temp between 85-91 degrees Fahrenheit?
    I see you can't include links. I use a starter from cultures for helth and I use a slow cooker from Brod & Taylor that i monitor the temp at 85 degrees until after 12 hours-15 hours the temp starts to rise and now I understand I need to cool it down even though I take it out of the slow cooker.

    • @francius1003
      @francius1003  3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      Hi, Lawrence!
      Yes, a good starter is essential to get successful tempeh. Now you can try making your own starter from the one you bought. Follow my tutorial video on how to do it, and you won't need to buy more starters.
      The mycelium is susceptible to heat. Even 94F for one hour will destroy it. That is why I keep advising that accurate temperature through an incubator is extremely important. 120F for 5 minutes will completely kill your tempeh. After 15hrs of incubation, you should take them out of your incubator, and let them cure at room temperature, cover with a kitchen towel if necessary. What kind of incubator do you have?
      Thanks for subscribing, please share this channel with friends! Keep me posted on your progress, and don't hesitate to ask if you still have any questions!
      Francius

    • @francius1003
      @francius1003  3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      After 12-15 hrs the tempeh produces its own heat. A slow cooker doesn't have a cooling system like a normal incubator. See my video on DIY an incubator: th-cam.com/video/1MG0-f97hxw/w-d-xo.html
      I can include links. What link do you need?
      Francius

  • @ec5091
    @ec5091 2 ปีที่แล้ว

    Matur suwun Om.

  • @gracececilia1212
    @gracececilia1212 ปีที่แล้ว

    Thank you I’m! You are a real inspiration

    • @francius1003
      @francius1003  ปีที่แล้ว

      Hi, Grace!
      You are so welcome! Please share our channel.
      Francius

  • @ali.m5018
    @ali.m5018 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Apakabar pak Francius, semoga bapak sehat2 saja.
    selamat berkarya of tempe making,
    My tempe making is so far so good, pruduksi tambah rata2 10 sampe 15kg per minggu.
    Produksi lainya Tape singkong, tape ketan itam, tape ketan iju juga Jadah (tetel).
    Saya mau tanya,,
    What is the best way to freeze fresh tempe tanpa merubah warna, kena apa ya setiap aku taruh tempe difreezer beberapa hari warnanya jadi kecoklat2tan (yellowish),
    any tips?, kami tunggu nasehatnya,
    Matur sembah nuwun,

    • @francius1003
      @francius1003  3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      Sukses selalu bisnisnya ya Pak Ali!
      Kenapa ya pak kok yellowish? Saya frozen berminggu2 tetep putih aja tuh? Coba jangan pake vinegar!
      Francius

    • @ali.m5018
      @ali.m5018 3 ปีที่แล้ว

      Terima kasih,,
      Memang saya selalu pake Vinigar, ternyata menurut pak Frans gak perlu.
      My next batch saya gak pakai vinigar lagi,
      Matur nuwun.

    • @ali.m5018
      @ali.m5018 3 ปีที่แล้ว

      Apa tempe perlu ditaruh dalam vacum bag sebelum di masukan di freezer?

    • @francius1003
      @francius1003  3 ปีที่แล้ว

      Tidak harus.

  • @mykaat
    @mykaat 2 ปีที่แล้ว

    Thank you for this video! I want to make my own and every recipe says add vinegar, but in my area there are two available brands, one shows vinegar in its list of ingredients and the other one lists only soybeans and culture. The one without vinegar tastes so much better, but I was worried about leaving out the vinegar until I saw your video.

    • @francius1003
      @francius1003  2 ปีที่แล้ว

      Hi, there!
      Good luck in making your own tempeh. It is fun and satisfying! You can get any information you need in this channel. Please share this channel and your experience in making your tempeh. Forget about vinegar!
      Francius

    • @mykaat
      @mykaat 2 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      @@francius1003 Thanks, I am experimenting with a piece of the good brand tempeh to see if I can get it to spore, but also have some commercial tempeh starter culture coming in the mail as well. I found that my instant pot has a setting (Less) that will give me 31C on the yogurt setting (press Yogurt 3 times) so that will be my incubator.

  • @UmmuFarras
    @UmmuFarras 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    Halo, Om Frans.
    I have a question. I've been making tempe for more than a year now. The very first one I made turned out beautiful but it has a bitter taste. What could be the cause of that bitter taste? I've been improving my technique since that first one and my tempe has been successful till now. But I am still wondering why that first batch was bitter. Could it be because I put too much 'ragi'?

    • @francius1003
      @francius1003  3 ปีที่แล้ว +4

      Hi, Indra!
      Some soybeans give a bitter taste when you don't cook them well. It comes from a compound called glycoside, a sugar derivative in the beans. Cooking of at least 60 minutes will drive away that unwanted taste. It has nothing to do with the tempeh starter or fermentation process. I always cook my beans for 30+60 minutes, and I never have that problem anymore. So, cook well.
      Francius

  • @veggienoob
    @veggienoob 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Thanks for sharing, will try without vinegar to see if theres any difference 🤙

    • @francius1003
      @francius1003  3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      Hi, there!
      Let me know your result.
      Francius

    • @veggienoob
      @veggienoob 3 ปีที่แล้ว

      @@francius1003 It turned out better. The smell of tempeh is better without vinegar than with it from what i noticed. Thanks Francius

    • @francius1003
      @francius1003  3 ปีที่แล้ว +3

      I told you. The traditional tempeh makers prove it every day. You will also notice that when you freeze it, it will stay white, instead of becoming yellowish.

    • @veggienoob
      @veggienoob 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      @@francius1003 ohh really interesting, yeah I noticed after few days usually turns a bit yellow, will check how this one made without vinegar goes. Thanks a lot 🙏

    • @beltonator
      @beltonator 2 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      hmm i will try without winegar too next time

  • @juliani2905
    @juliani2905 2 ปีที่แล้ว

    But if we make only 1/2 kg I heard it is not enough lactic acid to build, so that’s why need to add vinegar

    • @francius1003
      @francius1003  2 ปีที่แล้ว +2

      No. That is misleading. You don't need vinegar in your tempeh. 1/2 kg of soybeans make 900 gram tempeh ready beans, can be packed into 3 packs of 300 gram each. I make 1/2 kg beans all the time without vinegar with no problem. Temperature and good starter are the most important ingredient, never vinegar.
      Francius

    • @juliani2905
      @juliani2905 2 ปีที่แล้ว

      @@francius1003 Thanks. I will try it. GBU

  • @teriminuzzo8733
    @teriminuzzo8733 2 ปีที่แล้ว

    Am going to try it without vinegar & let you know how it went. 😀

    • @francius1003
      @francius1003  2 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      Hi, Teri! Try it. Nothing will change except you save some vinegar and a doubt on why we need vinegar for all practical purposes. Let me know!
      Francius

    • @teriminuzzo8733
      @teriminuzzo8733 2 ปีที่แล้ว

      I live in Australia but was born in Indonesia. My mother, who died nearly 10 years ago, was a brilliant cook and I learned quite a few things from her. I came across your channel & absolutely love it. She never made her own tempeh and I haven’t been too successful with it, but I am going to keep trying. My last batch 4 days ago the middle of the cake did not have any mould on it, I assume it was because I didn’t mix it properly. I also saw you had an example of what mine looked like in one of your videos.

    • @francius1003
      @francius1003  2 ปีที่แล้ว

      Hi, Teri Follow my video Homemade Tempeh for Beginners and you will succeed.

  • @toanmitran1491
    @toanmitran1491 ปีที่แล้ว

    I made two times without vinegar ,and that two times my tempeh smelt very bad and i have to throw it away. Now i know why, it may come from the starter that i have bought.

    • @francius1003
      @francius1003  ปีที่แล้ว

      How do you know it's the starter that failed your tempeh? Did you check your temperature also? Tell me about the tempeh starter that you bought.
      Francius