They Just Banned CLOYSTER in Gen 5 OU. But Why?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 8 พ.ค. 2024
- Pokemon Competitive Singles in Generation 5 has a long and tumultuous history. Many Pokemon and mechanics have caused serious balance issues in this Format over the years.
Cloyster has been a source of problems for quite some time, with the instant power of Shell Smash and it's offensive boosts leading to high matchup variance. Cloyster can sometimes win games single handedly in only 1 turn of setup.
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Some will never figure out how to get Cloyster in Pokemon Scarlet and Pokemon Violet. But famous player Jim Cool is well aware of the Best Cloyster Moveset in Competitive, and even how to Cloyster Shiny Farm. Many aren't and never will be. That's just the unfortunate reality of the world.
Arceus exists.
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#competitivepokemon #pokemonshowdown #gen5 - เกม
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Check out my interview with BKC where we discuss Gen 5 OU and more.
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Mixed Cloyster invaded the ladder. I queued up with the only reliable answer I could fit, looking down at my defeated ferrothorn clutching his suboptimal Sitrus Berry. When the moment came the detestable mollusc switched out mockingly, flashing his highly animated grin at me. He knew he would get another single turn of setup eventually, after which his unchallengeable boost would be the end of my carefully considered bulky sand team. I beat my keyboard with one fist, tears streaming down my cheeks, sweat pouring down my other cheeks.
😂😂
how many cheeks do you have
No more to clap sadly 😞@@usernametaken017
@@usernametaken017 one pair for kissing and one pair for sitting
Genuine skill issue. Should have used Vacuumn Wave
Believe it or not; Cloyster has been on thin ice in Generation 5 OU.
😂😂
Badum tsss
This is insane.
@@ethandaniel7929 dude your comment prompted a "Translate to English" (it says "bathing tsss") 🤣🤣
We failed...
Cloyster’s ice is anything but thin with that massive 180 base defense
When factoring in the taking 2x damage from most attackers ( and the weak special defense) cloyster certainly can feel rather thin at times. But despite that it’s absolutely worth the setup because the only sets that can handle it are meme worthy like the few vacuum wave users which are all very bad in ou barring like Scizor but what you gonna use modest specs Scizor to get enough damage
It's a mollusc moratorium.
Mollusco Mori
Should change its ability name to "skill issue" now
😂😂😂
Even better, knowing when to pop Cloyster’s sweeping state is a legitimate skill, so it really is a skill issue if you pop it badly.
This, ironically, brings gen 5 OU a little bit cloyster to being balanced.
I will show myself out now.
shell myself out, please
I need it
Oh my
This pun was a shell smash hit
I don't get the pun 😢😭
@@pn7857 "cloyster" is being substituted for "closer" in the sentence
I didn't see it the first time I saw it either
This is a Cloyster catastrophe, folks
It's a cloystrophe.....I tried.
I appreciate you 😂@@adav838
@@adav838 It was pretty good
Gen 5 OU has been battered by bivalve brutality, but no longer
Ferrothorn only tried to run Sitrus Berry because the fraudulent Pokemon company had not yet added the optimal item for dealing with Cloyster: Tabasco Sauce.
The gen 5 community decided it was finally time to reel in this particular threat after many years of controversy, folks
his cloystroversy
Super Rod pun.
@@dVector13 This is my favorite pun
As someone who has never played Gen 5 ou, I really think we should be looking at Delibird
3:25 tbh, their opponent deserved to be swept on because they named their pokemon after Maroon V songs
He went from safely switching and spiking on Swampert and dying to any neutral special attack to being banned for the crime of always getting really, really lucky with multi-hit moves... This is sad, can we pour one out for our shelly boy?
Good lord, that B-roll footage of constant Icicle Spears and Rock Blasts...yeah, I'm glad that bivalve caught a ban
Do you even play Gen 5 OU?
@@luckylucas8596 nope! I prefer Gen 6 and 8
@@peterm542 So why do you care what they ban in a tier you don’t play?
@@luckylucas8596 cause I'm silly :3c
@@luckylucas8596second hand pain most likely.
Never trust a clam
Luckily it's an oyster
every clam has its clay
Wamen
Cloyster once again proves his worth as perhaps the most powerful ice type in the series now with an OU ban to his name alongside his multiple gens of OU viabilty and Niches in Ubers.
Nah Chien-Pao, Calyrex Ice Rider, and Iron Bundle still exists
@@Thund3rDrag0n12ok but have they been banned in gen 5 ou? I don't think so
With this ban on his ledger he's now walking with a strut.
You named 3 legendaries
@@usernametaken017they are so banned from gen 5 OU you can’t even use them in Gen 5 AG
I'm shell shocked at this development.
And yet Iron Mugulis is still legal. Smh.
Hearing about older gen balance changes is so funny with the context of current gen. "Volc and cloyster are an issue as they often win by matchup" when almost every sweeper in current gen ou works like that
Welp, Volc has always been like that. Now it's banned xD
Most sweepers rely on match-up. The issue is if you can still have a diverse and healthy metagame while consistently checking it. Not that removing Cloyster fixes Gen 5's many power creep issues.
They should ban gen 4 jirachi.
That fuckshit is incredibly unpredictable.
Even smogon themselves admited that there is not a single pokemon that can counter every single one of its sets.
I mean that's applicable to many, many pokemon
defensive empoleon is pretty nice into gen 4 rachi, you could experiment with roar/ knock with paralysis support from a teammate, i always run defensive emp & rachi/ latias are never really a problem
A lot of people want specifically Iron Head to be banned on Jirachi. I think that'd be good too
@@usernametaken017
many pokemon?
how many pokemon can you name that have a crapload of sets that they can run and make it either hard or impossible to counter them all?
jirachi has 5 different sets by the way.
Honestly gen 4 ou doesnt have ferrothorn, so if youre gonna be banning jirachi as well then you better watch out for a meteor rainfall. An iron head ban might be cool though
Shell Smash is one hell of a move.
Don’t you mean…
One SHELL of a move?
Obviously this is a heinous act from the villain Finchinator. Who doesn't adapt like us. It's obvious that we need the super meta relevant threat: HP Electric Empoleon.
This is just blasphemy to keep taking away checks from the clear problem, Lando-T........
Finch is a dictator
It is pretty annoying how anti-luck the Smogon elite are when the entire game inherently involves luck
@@Coteup I was making a sarcastic comment, but I'll tell you this
It's better to win because you played well, than because a Gyarados flinched the electric type with Waterfall, thus enabling a sweep that shouldn't have happened.
@@Coteup better to win a battle with trace amounts of luck than to win against someone purely because of luck
@@genarftheunfuni5227 And yet the council arbitrarily doesn't ban or test flinch moves like Waterfall but does implement things like freeze clause (literally impossible on cartridge).
thumbnail makes it seem like politoed did something to cloyster and I don't even wanna think of what that could've been
The thing politoed did was drizzling everywhere
Allowed for Hydro Pump to OHKO Heatran, a would-be check
As much as I adore Cloyster, I really dislike the idea of a pokemon getting a single opportunity to click a move and then sweeping through an entire team, so sounds like a good decision IMO.
I also think it was a weird direction to go in, for the super defensive pokemon characterised by a giant shell to specialise in dumping its defenses to sweep. Wish they'd just like, buffed its SpDef to a decent value or something instead, maybe replace skill link with a "reduces incoming damage on switch-in" or "weaknesses become neutral in hail" ability or something too, cool as skill link may be.
Given its spikey shell, could maybe also repurpose Shell Smash as a Cloyster signature-move that acts as an Explosion + Spikes combo, like a kamikaze caltrops-frag grenade. Or a hazard version of belly drum, taking 50% max HP damage to set up a duo/triple layer of spikes in one go? Or an ability that causes it to apply spikes upon fainting, or being hit with a super-effective physical attack, or something? ...I like the idea of Shell Smash being a Cloyster (or sufficiently spikey shell-having pokemon) thing that involves spikes and taking damage, basically
I mean, at this, Gen 5 Is More than 10 years old, so I guess the player Pool Is small enough that they can all get together and say "we don't like this" so good for them
Give it 10 more years, and gholdengo will be banned from gen 9 OU 😂
@@IWestradanobody on earth thinks Ghold is broken lmao
@@devilman4723If you scroll through r/Stunfisk, you will find that you are quite mistaken.
@@devilman4723 Seriously? It's the most polarizing mon in OU.
@@IWestrada not for anyone who actually plays OU lmao. It's just extremely solid and while having very exploitable weaknesses that you'll naturally have via regular team building, and gets checked by a large amount of the tier as well
i have never played a single game of this metagame, yet I am throughly outraged by this ban. I clearly know better than the voters and tournament players. clear abuse of power. sad! smogon continues to ban instead of getting good! before we know it pokemon such as "stunfisk" and "voltorb" will be ban!!
Me
Matchup mollusk might be Jim’s best bar yet
It’s amazing how cloyster could just its ability and moves to mussel though it’s checks
I would love to see some content on the lower tiers of gameplay, especially Gens 5&6 UU! love the content as always and DOWN WITH IRON MUGULIS!
That ban was pretty deserved. It's too strong for the metagame and certainly needed action.
I just woke up and this video was posted a minute ago. Yup, Jimothy is a Psychic type.
I am still waiting for all the gen 4 Ou by technicality pokemon drop to UU
A man can dream for Electivire be viabel there... A man can dream.
Even though this is a cloyster video Jim still always finds time for glazing mammoswine
My thought train for the longest was “if they won’t ban Latios, they won’t ban anything” but I was proven very wrong. A well deserved ban but not the one I was looking for
Congratulations Jimothy for reaching 70k!
The Matchup Mollusk sounds like a potential new ally of iron mugulis
The crooked clam's crimes cannot be countenanced.
Never thought I'd ever seen cloyster go to ubers under any circumstances, but here we are.
As a gen 3 goober, it’s hard to envision this clam fellow causing such a rukus
Cloyster got some of the best moves in the early gens. He got Clamp in gen 1, Spikes in gens 2 -4, and Shell Smash in gen 5.
I was just watching your Cloyster vid when I got word of this.😮
One could even say that gen 5 OU has fallen prey to Cloysterophobia
Can't wait for FSG remaking their Cloyster Video, this is gonna be fun
Something thats worth noting
The multi hit moves in Cloyster movepool was buffed from 10 BP to 25 BP in Gen 5. Yes 2.5 as powerful. It went from being at most as good as Gen 5 tackle, all the way to stronger than Outrage
Thats how overbuffed this thing was
Cloyster is one of my favorite pokemon! I fell in love with it while sweeping my friend's team in ironically, Gen 5 OU. This is awesome!
I love cloyster every gen and after 5 he became truly insane
The Next one should be Reuniclus.
To me, the best meta is the one when everyone is crying about different things. That means there is a lot of variety
No it doesn’t
5 broken Pokémon will cause a meta game to have extreme centralization, leading to less variety
Cmon @@GravityIsFalling. They banned morr than 20 mon last gen. UUbers is more interesting than OU. The coucil sucks
@@Icefrostmiguel come battle flinchinator for the council spot then you may be able to justly and democratically unban them, ofc
@@IcefrostmiguelUUbers has less variety than OU. It’s mostly dominated by whichever Arceus form stays unbanned and Zacian. The mons that the metagame was made for like Espathra and Annihilape are completely unusable. I view that tiering experiment as a failure.
@@Icefrostmiguellast gen didn’t have nearly that many bans. Don’t spread bullshit. OU council has done the best it can do with what they have.
Hey Jimothy, question: have you ever thought about doing a compare/contrast between Smogon Singles OU and Doubles OU? It's clearly established that Gen 5 singles OU is a nightmare to balance, but I seldom see any thorough coverage on what Gen 5 doubles is like. The most I can think of would be those VGC segments of any given False Swipe Gaming video on a gen 5 pokemon.
its the melmetal of lets go effect.
What happened to the money got different outro?😊
Posted 1 minute ago folks. This is insane.
Will there be a discussion on gems now?
Okay, I can't watch this video as long as I don't know where the piano song (@00:00 - 00:12) is from.
I know, I've heard it before but I can't tell the name/source.
Pls help
Pokemon black and white- emotion
@@yeet8036 Thanks! I assumed it was from an anime, so I would've never found it.
Seems like smoggon cares more about competitive than game freak. Its insane how some of these old formats are still supported haha.
A cloyst call do cloyster
It's been awhile since played gen V OU but I could see dragmag teams surging
Do you think that with enough pushback we could get SPL to become best of 3?
It's because he can learn Hydro Pump. If he got that in Gen 3 he would be S tier.
Honestly matchup fishing is why I think tera is unhealthy in gen 9 because it allows too many pokemon to become matchup fishing pokemon
True. Tera on Team Preview would really help with this.
sire this is a gen 5 video
@@usernametaken017 Did you pay attention to the actual points made in the video? Because those points are very relevant to the state of Gen 9.
One thing I’d be worried about re: banning rain (or any other weather) is that that steps on the identity of Gen 5 mechanics far too much. Permanent weather is a core gameplay mechanic to that generation. Even if it’s overpowered, at some point you’ll just start ripping out core gameplay elements of the series and really then why not just go make an “artificial” gen. Take the Pokemon, adjust their stats, learnsets, game mechanics, whatever you want.
They already took out gems, we're already there for gen 5
In a way, SPL is the perfect metric if there was a random ladder for Gen 5; a Best of One is VERY much like clicking "Battle" with a team loaded into a random player; I'm not playing a best of 3, its a best of one where either one of us have certain pokemon we automatically win, and Cloyster is a pokemon in that gen that gives way more dice rolls for that to happen. But that's just me, I'll be listening to the podcast later anyways so I'm sure to hear more there
I remember all the tiering and metagame issues during Gen 5, it was insane, and it's just never stopped or settled. It's like a soap opera
cloyster genuinely is an insane pokemon, cant believe people havent realized how op he is until pretty recently.
That smile, that damn smile
Maybe the gen 5 community will find our cloyster was just icing on the cake of imbalancd
Pokemon is certainly the toughest video game to balance.
Big ask at the end there. I think the decision to ban Cloyster makes sense and will be looked back on as a good decision. As for what's next... gosh, I really don't know. I think that there are a LOT of chain reactions that come with banning mons like Latios or abilities like Drizzle, and whichever one the council and playerbase is more willing to explore seems like the right pipe to jump down. Though these are going to be very, very, very difficult decisions.
BW has so many things that are so incredibly powerful that removing basically any of them from the tier is going to instigate a heavily armed race to the top. I think that the most important thing is that the current council have a clear idea of what they believe is a healthy metagame (informed by the community as well) so they can work towards a vision instead of just blindly banning or unbanning different things. I don't envy them, it's a very messy metagame! But like you, I think it's very fun, and has a ton of personality as a result of its many moving parts.
Ya, Cloyster was always a bit nuts so this makes sense
This brings rise to new issues as cloyster, while broken, was the only thing holding back threats like reuniclus, the latis and to a lesser extent, zam in gen 5 OU,
Cloyster was absolutely not a Latios check, you try switching into a Latios and see where that gets you. It could kill with Ice Shard but only at +2 Adamant Life Orb, remember Choice Scarf Latios is faster than +2 Cloyster, so only Ice Shard can be reliably clicked.
On a mollusc monday of all days? Surely there's been a mistake somewhere? This is insane!
Ah I see Gen 5 taking notes from Gen 9
i dont know what gamefreak was thinking when they added quiver dance and shell smash to the game lol
Tbf this is the gen where OU banned having swift swim and rain dance on the same team, but not separately... so really what are you expecting?
I’d say Best of 1 is the perfect format for tiering decisions because the ladders are Best of 1, and that’s the primary means by which people play Smogon Metas.
Cloysters Collapse
I do remember back in the day of some generations, or perhaps just Monotype, how Shell Smash on Cloyster really is enough to let it pretty much win on the spot if you didn't have anything for it. Always ended up feeling a little _too_ easy to use.
HP fighting accelgor might've helped against anything other than scarf cloyster. Has anybody tried?
epic update!
gen 5's interesting to hear about since it's odd to me that a metagame that's, like, a decade old is still unstable enough to require drastic changes.
If i was doing some counter play, I'd get choice specs lucario vacuum wave
I've only played gen 3 ou but why not just ban the broken triple boost setup moves?
0:33 gotta acknowledge the bocchi respect
Gen 5 Shell Smash Cloyster, the first pokemon to ever give me core memories on Smogon.
Welcome to the NBA my boy.
Personally I can't wait for all the people that have never/barely touched Gen 5 OU to weigh in on this decision with their expert opinions in the comments
In the words of big yellow, there is nothing sexier than knowing what tf you’re talking about
despite not having played gen 5 OU in over a decade, I am sad to see Cloyster go because I like Cloyster.
I do think this could lead into a "slippery slope" situation because as you said early in the video, there are a ton of other incredibly viable options and toward the end you speak on how there are a bunch of strategies that people want banned outright. I can't help but feel like people are being crybabies because every time something gets banned they just move onto the next thing that frustrates them as an individual and whine about that until its gone too. I'm sure it will be Latios because Magic Guard and Drizzle are too valuable for the format this far down the road, even though Latios is very cool. I understand that there needs to be some balance but I just don't vibe with the way Smogon approaches a lot of stuff. Cloyster was banned by less than 40 votes, out of hundreds if not thousands of players, maybe even more. It wouldn't take much to rally people behind something that you all mutually dislike just to have it removed. The definition of the loud minority.
I also feel like Shell Smash is the problem because remember, in gen 4 it also had Skill Link + Rock Blast and it barely made a dent in the grand scheme. Would Icicle Spear make it better? Absolutely. But would it become some dominant meta force with things like Azelf, Zapdos, Lucario, Roserade, Jolteon, and especially Rotom on every team? Absolutely not. Would that change in the next generation where the ceiling is even higher than that? Again, absolutely not. Icicle Spear makes it good but Shell Smash is what made it great, and without it the stats hold it back tremendously. Without the Swords Dance and Agility boost granted by Shell Smash, Skill Link doesn't do much other than scare Landorus and Garchomp and other stuff like that (but historically Smogon absolutely will go so far out of their way to protect Landorus lmao embarrassing). Should just ban Shell Smash from OU to prevent shenanigans with any other line as well, and to preserve all the other tiers and prevent collateral damage.
Shell Smash is what gives it the stats to utilize the tools so I think that's the obvious answer. Just like how they're talking about banning Iron Head on Jirachi in gen 4, so it's apparently not that alien of a concept to them. Passing stats with Baton Pass is banned as well and with gems already being banned long ago there's virtually no room to abuse Cloyster if they would just pull the trigger on the real problem, but Smogon "council members" are so notoriously idiotic with the choices they make regarding "complex bans" even though this is a prime contender for a reasonable complex ban that any player with half a brain would look at and go "you know what, that makes a lot of sense." Nobody is gonna run Overcoat and definitely not Shell Armor. Piss poor Speed for the tier, Ice being horrible defensively already, low Special Defense and HP in a tier where tons of things have massive Special Attack, no reliable recovery... Shell Smash is the ONLY thing that made Cloyster relevant.
Standard OU Cloyster with Nevermelt, Ice Skill Link, Icicle Spear, with no Shell Smash, vs standard Ferrothorn is a 2HKO and it's a range. 3HKO vs Specs Keldeo. 4HKO vs Jirachi lead. Skill Link is terrifying to Dragon and Flying types but without Shell Smash, Cloyster just doesn't have the ability to enforce it. It gets knocked down hard by basically any Electric or Grass move, and many neutral Special Attacks in general. With 0 investment in Special Attack, Mew, Jirachi, and Celebi all 1-shot the standard Cloyster set with Thunderbolt or Grass Knot and with no chance of being outsped unless the Cloyster opts for Quick Claw I guess? A small RNG based chance to move first and maybe not even get the KO? Alakazam and Reuniclus can 1-shot it with Psychic (Reuniclus is a small chance to be a 2 hit KO, but even so Cloyster's best shot is also only a 2HKO, but possibly 3HKO). Any Draco Meteor nukes it unless Cloyster moves a lot of its EVs into defensive stats which it really can't afford to do. Maybe it could go with a Specially Defensive set with a Scarf? But it sacrifices a lot of damage that way and so it's even less of a threat to anything it doesn't hit super effectively even if it can outspeed. Perhaps some critical hit cheese with Razor Claw? But then its Speed issue is magnified yet again.
The point I'm making is, without Shell Smash, the things that are ALREADY VERY GOOD AND POPULAR DESTROY IT OR DEFEND AGAINST IT WITH 0 ISSUES. Even Pokemon that Cloyster "wins" against will delete it with a super effective Special Attacking coverage move on a neutral nature with 0 investment, like Jirachi's Thunder/bolt. Should have banned Shell Smash from OU. No other Pokemon in Gen 5 that has had Shell Smash for this long will be an issue because everyone and their grandma has experimented with every avenue, and Cloyster is the only one who had the stars align to reach the top. Garbage Pokemon like Carracosta, Gorebyss, and Torkoal aren't going to be a problem, I assure you.
It's 3am. Why did I sit here and study and research the topic for over 2 hours, to write this comment about a game mode I haven't played in over 10 years? I don't know. I like Cloyster and I don't like Smogon. But there is no alternative so we have to suffer through their incompetence.
The only legal Pokemon should be Charmeleon.
There’s no slippery slope, cloyster being an ice type got banned
I love cloyster so much because of how strong it is with shell smash, one of my top 3 fav pokemon. But it definitely is very hard to swap into with a mixed set. I believe Blastoise(with shell smash) is a lot more fair version of cloyster, still very strong but easier to counter once set up. Skill link is just an insane ability.
Cloyster ban time.
Wake up, folks! It's a new BKC video!
6:17 Isn't Bo1 literally the ladder format though?
only played gen 5 during gen 5 so I can't speak to the current, but iirc RU was introduced then and it was just so amazing at the time.
Cloyster has been banned from Gen 5 OU. This is insane.
Cloyster is now ubers
Ngl I like the direction the tier is going what with the sleep ban, gem ban and now cloyster ban but I gotta say Im gong to somewhat miss the old gen 5. Was fun having a metagame that is just stupidly offensive for once. Not nearly as competitive as the other gens but way funnier.
its so hard to believe Cloyster is now in Ubers. it just doesnt feel like an Ubers pokemon...
btw currently you can still use cloyster in OU. So use it while you still can.
most likely fear of dark and fear of hights here dont think any of the others. defenitly NOT the last one
You are now a Banned Bivalve.
Hold up they banned fuckin Cloyster before Latios or Keldeo? What the actual fuck
Surprisingly enough, Cloyster if it got setup was actually more of a game ender than those two titans of the format
Never underestimate Shell Smash.
So does any setup sweeper tbh. Sure its harder to revenge kill cloyster because of its high defense and the fact that shell smash boosts its Speed, but the video was talking about lures. If cloyster runs a lure that neans lit lacks either shard or rock blast. So you have other ways. I always think that those get banned because they swept in a bo1 tournament. Thats why i like VGC. If you bring a matchup fish, they now know about it and will play differently. We should have that for singles too.
@@echogaia1708 I mean the fact that SPL *isn't* Bo3 is super weird. However, IIRC, Smogon Best of 3 lets you change teams between games. If they didn't let you then you could play it differently, but you still might be in a situation where you genuinely have no real options surprise factor or not.