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Legend of the Galactic Heroes - Die Neue These - Best Fights - Mock Battle for Combat Simulation #39
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 6 ก.พ. 2019
- It's Wideborn's turn for the next combat simulation! Who will be matched up with him?
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I honestly prefer the way the simulation was handed in the manga-book adaptation : Wang was depictured as more unsure and unresolute, like someone double-checking where the control are and asking himself if the way he's doing it is the right one and he isn't screwing up. Wideborn, on his hand, was giving an amused expression as he was laying down his own plan in a very methodical, taking into account statistics and battle theories in a very professionnal way.
Also, for those who are wondering, The name of the Vice Admiral Sithole is actually pronounced "Sitoley."
And one of the more capable Alliance senior officers who was unfortunate to get caught up in power politics
+Tenhys True, although that changes nothing to the fact that Yang even then was the better tactician. That's right: Yang at his most unsure was better than Wideborn at his best.
@Tin Watchman you could still have some of yang's inner monologue. There are a bunch of instances where he's voicing his thoughts to the audience
This bit I found really impressive was that he turned that into an advantage that allowed him to win.
Well in novel he was similar to DNT.
Though I agree Wideborn portrayed in new manga is better.
I'm more impressed that the detachment didn't get slaughtered by the way it narrowly went around his opponent. They got way too close and likely were showing their broadsides to travel that way. Also any person with a few brain cells, especially with the advantageous numbers, would have sent a small detachment themselves to counter it. If not for protecting the logistical lines, then at least for avoiding any flanks.
At least a superior numerical force from Wideborn's fleet would have needed to turn in order to fire at and pursue the small and probably faster detachment, and at the moment they were pretty much in front of Yang's fleet.
Wideborn also thought the opponent was a pushover, a critical flaw that was very common among FPA commanders and the Empire military.
Yang's entire thing is punishing the actions of decisive or single-minded opponents. Eg: at Amritsar, when he predicts that the Bittenfeld's penchant for rushing into a brawl would give Yang the option for an unimpeded shot, or at Astarte where he figured that Reinhard would press the attack on the 4th fleet as he had earlier with the 2nd.
Similarly, Wideborn was focused on maintaining the initiative and destroying Yang's main force, figuring (correctly) that he could just turn around and destroy the detached force if he was flanked. He just forgot that his supply line was even a target.
you would be surprised that in the history, many generals ignored the safety of their supply lines and ended up defeated
or shift the entirely battle by 90° to the other side to leave the flanking out of range and wasted potential.
ワイドボーンは常に正攻法での戦いしか思いつかなかった為第六次イゼルローン攻略戦の前哨戦でラインハルトの奇策に対応できずあっさり戦死することになる
I always use the same tactic when I play strategy games. Cutting out the ennemy from their supplies and ressources, then being "defensive/agressive" until they dry out.
In any RTS game, the easiest path is to cut off the enemy from their supply and slowly dry them out. It's also most of the time the best way. Go head to head against your enemy who has superior in number is near suicide when Wideburn acted like an AI and go straight to you. You might have a hard time defending but at the mean time, cut off their resources. They bleed out fast
Sadly, most RTS that I know of don't address this well enough. It'd be cool no doubt but most I see revolve either drowning the enemy is sheer numbers and firepower or slowly creeping up to their base with gun turrets and bunkers.
@@TheNapster153 if it's something like CoH2 and IH, I usually play on the defensive by holding key areas. It's the usual, my infantry just come in and out to cap their resource points. In CoH2 it's even more possible since some faction have paratrooper skills. Very handy if you managed to send just a few squads with anti tank weapons.
This honestly doesn't work that well in RTS games. If the enemy has superior numbers and you destroyed their ability to collect resources, all they're gonna do is send everything they have and it will destroy you. That is because units in RTS don't operate on supplies. Very very few games incorporate functional supplies that isn't just an arbitrary way to limit units.
Only game I can think of where it's actually relevant it's Romance of the Three Kingdoms VI where it's strategically excellent to take out the enemy's supply carrier like this.
@@Zeithri Depends on which RTS, the genre is massive and it has so many derivative branches. Aiming for the enemy supplies makes sense for macro-focused games like Paradox games (HoI4, Stellaris), Total Annihilation, Beyond all Reason & Supreme Commander etc. Then for the exclusively micro-based games like wargame etc suppression and morale mechanics means numerical superiority matters little; in those games it's all about finding 1-for-many trades similar to a TCG game (hammer and anvil tactics and manoeuvre warfare is key)
In 4X games, units almost always operate on supplies; the fastest way to lose an entire army group in HoI4 is to run out of oil, fail to produce enough equipment or send in 100+ tanks into a grid that functionally can't support that many tanks lol (eg. Caucasus).
The problem is most mainstream-style RTS is as you identified, it's typically too narrowly balanced (fine-tuned for a specific style of gameplay) and there isn't enough mechanics beyond the established basics from three decades ago. Typically the more mainstream RTS tend to have shorter matches with fewer unit variety and it's much easier to snowball your edges (eg. MOBA, CoH2/3, AoE, SC2). Capture enough territories or destroy the enemies workers within the first few minutes and it's gg. There's simply no offset mechanisms to help players recover from a major loss.
The general RTS genre in my opinion kinda peaked in scale/depth with Supreme Commander long ago; now it's more about specializing towards niches that people really enjoy (eg. small-scale squadron-based tactical rpgs, simulators etc). It would be amazing to see the reclaim mechanic from Supreme Commander be included into more games. Having destroyed units function as another resource point and hence becomes a point of contention completely changes the gameplay dynamics. Huge stalemates often happens in Supreme Commander with frequent constant battles and victory/defeat is often incremental; there's rarely one decisive battle that you can pin down a loss to. The core of the game is a battle of war economies especially if you pitch two equally skilled players against each other.
If you want something fun to watch, search up a 1v4 or 2v6; pros vs joes match on SupComm FAF or Beyond all Reason. In most RTS, the player count advantage is simply insurmountable, however in the annihilation/commander franchise there truly isn't much of a cap or scale to what you can do -- the pros pretty much always wins/dominates after a tight first 20 minutes.
Man, if there was a way to send supplies via air like the Berlin Airlift during the Cold War
And this is space so attacking an enemy supply line is even worse than the battles we read about. It's not likely a losing force is gonna stumble upon some village or planet to raid while retreating. They're lightyears away from home. Protecting your supply line should be THE top priority. It always should have since the dawn of time. But even more so under their circumstances. Feel like they made his opponent here a bit too stupid. Or they were just showing how arrogant and cocky people with positions of authority can become.
Every soldier on this planet regardless of nationality deserves a CO as thoughtful as Yang Wen-li.
But then we might not have any wars. Those poor politicians. They might have to govern adequately then.
攻撃の受け流しは回廊の戦いの前哨戦でビッテンフェルト・ファーレンファイト両艦隊を手玉にとり、ファーレンファイト提督を戦死たらしめた戦術で使われていますね。
真っ正直に正面決戦をするだけが、戦闘じゃないという事😊
このシーンで惑星同盟（帝国も同様）の士官は戦術的勝利という華にしか目がいっていないというのを表してるよなぁ
だからこそヤンの視野の広さが分かる
I wonder how Yang would handle the Kobayashi Maru simulation of the Federation?
🤔👍
@ArulVon Fadhilah Well shuttles warp capacity is limited. Plus those birds of prey would not have much trouble chasing you down. Unless you could trick them into withdrawing. Or if you set the ship to self destruct. Impulse could work but remember it was an ambush. The perpetrators might be planning to do it again in the future. But if a vessel escapes that would ruin the plan as the survivors could warn the Federation. So again they would chase you down and zap you into oblivion.
When your Team wins 14:0 but the last bugger captures your base...
Vice Admiral Sithole
Admit it we all read shithole.
@@adamamaru4535 No we didn't
@@adamamaru4535 *Well...i can't lie,gotta admit,i did read it as shithole😂😂😂*
@@adamamaru4535 I was thinking the same thing LOL!
*Vice Admiral Sithole*
I feel that Yang Wenli is really well prepared. Yang Wenli can see that the plan has already been formulated even before the battle.Even if the enemy intercepts the communication, Yang Wenli don't have to worry about Yang Wenli actions being read. It is also important to command flexibly, but it turns out that meticulous command is even more important.The video is very interesting.
このシーンは旧作よりも丁寧に描かれていて好感が持てる。完全に老害な意見だけどBGMはどうしても旧作に劣る部分があると個人的には思うし、声優の声はいいのに話し方がミュージカル的で違和感を感じてしまう。
まあ多分昔の人にはそういう深い感じ？みたいなのが良かったというか、合ってたんだろうけど、今の人にはこれが合ってるんだよね。嫌なら見なきゃいいのに。人の心って周りの環境とかそんなんですぐ変わりゆくもんじゃん。ちゃんと今の世代向けになってるだけアニメ製作会社はすごいと思うよ
原作があるのに、大事なところを端折っていることに文句が出てるわけなんだが・・・
太郎山田 それやったら最近のアニメ枠12話=1期で終わらないよw 120話=12期に及ぶ長編アニメで作るなら出来るね！
Yang give enemy like haft of his fleet to get destroy all the supply. In short run, he may lost but in the long run, Yang may even wreck enemy country.
If it were a real battle, yang's supplies would have gone to another fleet while his opponent would have been chased down by well supplied fleets.
ヤン・ウェンリーの戦術は理に適っているが、これはあくまでも戦闘指揮官による戦闘シミュレーションなんで、藤崎版銀英伝ではじゃあ輸送船団だけ攻撃したらええやごっつぁんでーすになっては意味がないので以後シトレ校長がこの戦術は禁止されたというエピソードがある。どんな大艦隊でも補給がなければどうにもならない。
戦闘シミュレーション絡みの話では、こちらは帝国軍幼年学校での話だが、ミッターマイヤーがアイテム追加させてこうしたいと言って教官に「それは上の学年になってから。今は与えられた条件でやれ。ただし図書館の資料に上級生の戦闘シミュレーションがあるのでそれを閲覧できるから勉強しろ」と指導された件がある。そして貴族でも凄い奴がいるのかと感心していたシミュレーションが後に帝国軍の双璧となるロイエンタールの戦闘シミュレーションだった。
The thumbnail 0:37 he look like Erwin with Kruger hat 😭💗
1:33 Now he's Jean 😂
補給を理解できない愚か者が作中には多過ぎる
同盟も酷いけど帝国でも定時連絡すらサボってヤンに
護衛してた補給部隊喰われたアホ提督がいたしな。
普通は部隊にも備蓄があるんで、補給が途切れても短期間は戦える
ドイツの電撃戦などでは補給を待たずに速度で押し切る作戦も効果的だった
でもこの描写、このルールだと将棋で王を守らずに負けてるのと同レベル
このシーンは原作の意図がアニメのスタッフに上手く伝わってないような気がします。
小説版でのヤンの戦法は、最初に味方が大損害を被るのを覚悟で全軍で突撃し敵の補給線を破壊すると、
後は敵の補給物資が尽きるまでひたすら逃げ回るというもので、
模擬戦をすることで艦隊指揮能力を学ぶというテストの趣旨を完全に無視した非常識なものでした
(ヤンは他の科の赤点が補えればなんでもよいと考えていたわけですが)。
原作者はこのエピソードでヤンという人間は既存の常識やルールに縛られない奇抜な発想の持ち主だということを強調したかったのでしょう。
ちなみに藤竜版のコミックではヤンの使った戦法はシトレ校長の意向で翌年から使用禁止になりました。
これを許すと、みんな楽して勝とうと補給部隊ばかり狙って真面目に戦わなくなってしまうから、というのが理由ですw
帝国軍のはゾンバルト少将だったかな、おそらく原作のシュミレーションは兵棋演習みたいな多角的なものだったのでは⁉、少なくとも艦隊戦の戦術シュミレーションでは後付け感がある。
同盟軍士官学校のカリキュラムはかなり問題がありそう。
補給と言うロジスティックスの概念を真面に教えていない様な。
everyone is way too impressed by this if destroying the supply chain was a automatic win then all the students and professors should all know this. His strategy was also terrible it was dependent on the other side not attacking a small detachment
I mean...it really depends.
That combat scenario was probably an encounter-type battle in deep space (so no asteroid belt, planets or stars to use as cover), and they say the detached force is too small to do something. You'd be amazed at how much your opponent can get cocky if you make it look as if you're just saving some troops for later or falling back. If your main fleet is covering the detachment by making itself a bigger target (and it is), it is infinitely wiser to just deal with that threat first. I suppose the detached fleet was also rerouting energy from their weapons to their shields (not that we see it of course, but I bet Yang would think of that) and keeping their counter-fire to a minimum so as to not attract that much attention.
Now, it may also be a matter of politics and mentality. Yang was aware of the fact that this was only a simulation, and treated this battle as such. In a real battle, the enemy CAN do without a supply fleet (at least for some time), while this system just makes it an automatic defeat. On the other hand, I feel as if Wideborn treated this as a real battle, and in those conditions, taking out the enemy's main fleet is prioritized.
I mean, the Alliance has been fighting a war for a LONG time, and if you manage to get a "body-count victory" at the very least, you might help the overall war effort by giving the people who support it a victory. I'm sure they teach that at the officer academy, at least in the Alliance.
Of course, Yang doesn't give a flying fucc about that, so yeah.
@@benz505 I was thinking the dub makes it a point that the military is filled w/ muscle heads who are ready to just go to fights than strategize and later politics too
its risky but we dont exactly know what wen li think and what he knows about his opponent. the question is, what makes him so sure to detach such a small forces to attack enemy supplies, if we assume that he somehow able to confirm what wideborn would do through numerous considerations including analyzing wideborn "playstyle" in daily practice, we can say his decision is probably one if the best one.
ワイドボーンも簡単に戦死したしなぁ。
私の記憶が確かなら、本の銀英伝ではシレッと一行だけ｢ティアマト会戦で、焦った艦隊運動を帝国軍に突かれて戦死した｣とワイドホーンの戦死の記述があっただけです。
利口とバカの格差が大きすぎるんだよね、銀英伝って作品。
@大川内武志
戦闘で上官戦死して
その分出世してきたんじゃね？
@大川内武志 作戦でうまい案を出したからその功績でどんどん出世したんじゃない。
@大川内武志
派閥争いで、うまいこと多数派の尻馬に乗っかって、と言うことだと記憶している。
それよりも、旧日本陸軍の無駄口ならぬ牟田口中将がどうして中将まで出世したのか不思議で成らない。
というか、牟田口中将というパワーワードで、どんな馬鹿げた事も、起こりうると納得できる。フィクションを超えた存在だな。
After this sim battle the academy instituted a rule against directly attacking supply ships in simulations
ah the anti kirk rule i see no more cheating at the kobyashi maru.
@@poil8351but Kirk hacked the sim computers Yang won by making a good tactical decision of going for the supply ship and distracting the main fleet whilst doing so
I have a request can you post the scene when Yang was talking to Walter about peace and retirement right before Iserlohn Fortress
実際の場面はこんなにアッサリしていた…
と、今回の制作側はそう言いたかったのでしょう
苦しいな。それではエンタメにならない。やはり銀英は声優伝説でなければ面白くない。
@@user-uz3fg4ux1x どゆことや
旧作はもっとあっさりしてたけどな
このシーンは旧アニメが一番あっさりしてたしそもそも派手なシーンでもない
This is an perfect example in storytelling of *how to treat your audience like idiots while attempting to make your hero look like a genius* .
As in, this is the wrong way to do it.
ANYONE whom played a strategy game in the past 30 years would had been able to deduce what his plan was, IF, the audience had been privvy to what was at the far edge of the map, but instead the audience is treated to a small army that seemingly got blown up immediately as they disappeared and at most, were assumed to have managed to struck a fatal backattack due to overconfidence of the enemy.
But no, " _He attacked their supply lines lawl isn't he da greaytest roit????_ "
These 4 episodes I've seen thus far, really don't speak a lot of positive compared to the old one.
But I do love, LOVE these blue jackets with white cargo pants uniforms! As someone who wears cargopants, I thoroughly approve ;3
I would point out that not thinking about how vulnerable and necessary supply lines are has been a pretty big flaw with the Alliance military.
@@Hartzilla2007 It doesn't matter if they are notorious for being bad at protecting logistics, if the audience aren't aware that logistics is even apart of it as we see in this scene.
@@Zeithri just as you seem to be unaware that this scene was done the same way in the original anime’s prequel series.
@@Hartzilla2007 I didn't even know the series HAD a prequel.
It was also mentioned in the first novel titled "Dawn", Chapter 1 Part 5;
_However, Yang's marks in Strategic Tactical Simulations weren't bad at all. Grades in this class were determined by having the students face off against one another in VR simulations. The instructors were shocked one day when the class's top student-a boy named Wideborn, who was touted as the most brilliant student the school had seen in the last decade-was soundly defeated by Yang Wen-li._
_Yang focused all of his forces on one point, cut his opponent's supply lines, and then switched over to a purely defensive posture. Wideborn, using a variety of tactics, penetrated deep into Yang's ranks, but when his supplies ran out, he had no choice but to retreat. Both the computer's judgment and the instructor's scoring awarded the victory to Yang._
_Wideborn, whose pride had been wounded, was furious. "I'd have won if he'd played it straight and fought me head-on. I mean, all he did was keep running back and forth to get away, right?"_
That being said, the portrayal of the novel here is far better than hiding away that fact behind a curtain we cannot see like in the series.
So I still retain that this way they do it in the series is a poor choice.
Unlike The Battle Of Exegol from Star Wars this anime did it better.
中央突破されてからが勝負だ、とか、プランCのイチゴで作戦指揮だとか、ほぼアスターテじゃん。
Okay if destroying the enemy supply ship wins you the game, why didn't he try to protect it. Thats like leaving your king unguarded in chess. Attacking the supply ship should be a common tactic he should have seen coming. If it being destoyed is an instant lose.
It is more or less like a blindspot - a small detachment seemed so insignificant because Wideborn thought it was either a) a diversion or b) a 'shock troop' force to disrupt the formation. It appears that the detachment's number was so small, and sent rather 'too late' to make any significant impact, Wideborn (as clearly shown here) thought little of it. If the detachment force would have been sent earlier, then Wideborn might have suspected something more.
As good as lotgh is it does have a habit of falling into herp derp tactical genius at times.
A common flaw of rookie tacticians. They focus on their tactics and objectives while forgetting the importance of logistics.
There is a reason for the old saying, "Amateurs preach tactics, Professionals preach logistics."
He was an arrogant jerk... likely born rich, and no one ever said no to him as a kid... He just... Assumed that resources would always be there
the irony is that rehinard pretty much pulled this on the alliance fleet when they imvaded imperial territory. he destroyed their supply fleet.
The Enemy Gate is down!
It seems odd to me that they'd be concerned with teaching entry level officers large scale strategy when managing a section or deck crew during a battle would seem like the more appropriate direction
I agree
今の世代には今のものが合うな……
Can't wait for the entire English dubbed version to be released on DVD and online. I think there are only twelve episodes so far wonder why the others have not been released yet?
There will gonna be 3 movies coming out this year.
原作小説は、『ヤンは最初に一撃を与え補給線を断った後、防戦に専念した。
ワイドボーンは、様々な戦術を駆使してヤン陣営深くまで侵攻するも、補給が途絶えて撤退せざるを得なくなった。』
Are we supposed to be impress by this?
I actually had to look again at vice admiral sidney's last name. dang real close there lol
昔の英雄伝説から人物以外のグラフィックは格段に良くなっているけど、キャラや描写が薄っぺらくなってしまった印象がある。
模擬戦闘の描写でも、旧作ではこんなにスパッと勝利していなかったような気が・・・。
確か、「全軍をあげて補給部隊を叩き、あとは逃げ回ってた」って記述だったはず。
ワイドボーンは手を変え品を変えで、様々な戦術を使って追い回したけど、ヤンはひたすら逃げ回ってたってことだったはず。
あと、ヤンがわざわざ別働隊を作って、戦力分散させるはずがない。
銀河英雄伝説のキャラは渋さがいい所なのにみんなよくいるイケメンになってしまった。
Even Starcraft's easy AI is better than Wideborn. Why did he manage to be head of class?
Largely because the war has gone on for so long that standards _slipped_ that badly. By the time Yang became part of the military, the FPA was basically doing its best 'nearly scrapping the barrel' impression. The FPA is basically broke at this point, but political shenanigans kept the war going and caused pretty much everything else than the military to get massive funding cuts...
... remember, the FPA populous basically welcomed Reinhard _with open arms_ due to how badly the FPA political leadership screwed up.
Haha, been doing the same damn thing since I was ten in strategy games. Draw out the main force and then capture/destroy the production/supply lines with a small elite force .
We're talking about a military where glory hounds like Lobos are the best the FPA has, no wonder moronically spearheading an assault would be seen as the signs of a great tactician.
The head of class don't know the danger of the enemy could cut his supplies. That's not his fault, that's the academy's and the professor's.
one "h" away from making that Admiral's name truly unfortunate.
Way too easy of a victory, so it doesn't make Yang look smart, it just makes his opponent look dumb. Even if the shows tell us he is the top student...
Like, his plan is literally to charge forward... You went to military school, and you don't know about supply lines, really ?
Would have been better if say, Yang baited him into attacking that way, and the guy at least hesitated before committing totally. Say, Yang giving him the impression he could win decisively, but that he had to take the opportunity RIGHT NOW. The supply line thingy should have not been an automatic victory, just show that the fleet now has no ammunition, and encirlcler, and thus helpless to defend itself.
Add to that they removed Yang's hesitant/pushover persona and gave him that clean/calm collected behavior, and it doesn't has any impact.
But from another point of view, it may be this way to show that 200+ years of war has deteriorated the average IQ of the population because the government keep allocating more and more resources to military and left almost nothing for education. Remember that Yang was forced to attend Officer Academy because they shut down the faculty and civilian institution he wanted to attend. Not to mention sending smart people who lack connections to their death by millions.
That's headcannon, but not that bad. I do some too to explain why LoGH has basically just white people in it (no asian, no indian, no blacks people, no latinos. Nah, just German dudes)
Like, we know the Empire did some eugenics eitheir way.
@@Baamthe25th Yang is Asian. Sitoley is literally black. What are u talking here?
@Jefuri Hartono
Yeah, but that's like 2 character in this scene, a little more if you add guys like Machungo or background character. Now, compare that to Earth current population, and its proportions. Asians/Indians/Africans aren't the minority. It's simply isn't very realistic.
If you look at this in universe, then it means most of them probably got killed in Earth's 11 day war or something. That, or something else, that's why I mentionned the Empire's eugenics, btw.
Also, I'm not complaining because lack of representation or whatever, it's really besides the point and main conflict/thematic of autocracy vs democracy, it's just from a pure World Building perspective, this is kinda limited.
I mean, it's like how there's 2 factions only, (4, if you count Phezzan and the Terraists, which don't really count, tbh) while in our history, even at the Height of the Cold War, this was far from true with literally hundreds of factions, even roughly aligned (I mean, China and the USSR were at odds, same for say, France and the US)
You could say I'm being nitpicky and wishing LOGH was one thousand + episode long (and well, who does not want more Logh ?), and thus, that this criticism is unfounded, but I dunno, I still find it pertinent.
Like, imagine LOGH, but spliced with a little Cowboy Bebop in it in term of detailled WorldBuilding.
Funny cause most of humanity scientific progress is a direct result of wars.
昔の銀英伝キャラクターのまま戦闘場面だけ今の技術で作り直して欲しい
今回のは、いろいろな制約もあっただろうけど、あまりにも薄っぺらく感じた
Admiral "sithole" 🤣
今のアニメの仕組みだと銀英伝をやるのは難しい。情報量は相当なものがあるし、グラフィックが良すぎるが故に何か違う感じが強い。人気取り上仕方なかったのかもしれないけど、典型なイケメンが多すぎるのも違うと思う。
This scene was not translated well into visual medium, in the novel Yang bait wideborn fleet into a slog fest while destroying supply ship thus led to a long run victory through atrition. Not immediate victory like presented here.
.
Its a text book 1 to 1 of one of the situation presented in art of war of what a general is not to do
ダメだこりゃ(笑)
逃げて逃げて逃げまくって、別動隊が補給部隊を叩く。
ってヤン戦法の一番大事な
「逃げて逃げて逃げまくる」描写が全くないじゃん。
こんなんだから、薄っぺらいって酷評されんだよ(冷笑
そうですね、これではワイドボーンが無能で終わっちゃいます。
ワイドボーンも補給喪失後も手を変えて反撃に出るも
ヤンがせこく逃げ回りまともに戦わなかったから”姑息に勝ちを拾った”として
ヤンを評価せず、ワイドボーンは運がなかったと擁護する流れになった。
ここで同盟に巣くう補給軽視、原因究明もなく運で片付け自分の思いたい
方向に事実を捻じ曲げて解釈するという救いがたい病根が見え隠れするのが
描き切れていないというか、前述の通り薄っぺらいというか・・・。
ノイエは端折過ぎて、小説に有ったような微妙な心理描写が描かれてないのが残念です。
ケンプに勝ったのに「逃げろ」というヤンの命令に「他の言い方があるでしょうに」と言わんばかりのムライの苦り切った顔とか……
前作の良い所を活かして欲しいなという所はいっぱいありますよね？
これだと補給叩かれても本隊が迅速に敵を殲滅すれば良いのでは？という疑問を残したまま、単にシミュレーションの欠陥をついただけになってしまう。
補給を叩いてノラリクラリ長期戦で痛み分けというのが、ヤンらしいところなのに。
Ah, so it's this that Haruhi parodied.
懐古主義者の頑迷な老将や旧来の貴族の方々には批判されるだろうが、今の声優さんも悪くはないと私は思う。旧作のイメージが強すぎるだけかと。内容的には2クール分でリップシュタット直前までやれば本編とキャラの掘り下げもできたと思う。
ただ細かな描写や声優の質等総合的には旧版が圧倒してるわけだが。新版は新版、旧版は旧版で分けて考えるべきかと。古典派懐古主義者の皆様。
前髪垂らしたロイエンがな
誰が声優に文句を言ったのか。
君の半身の鏡像がか。
@@lookglacial6325
ここのコメント欄にも声優に批判的な方はそれなりに居られますし、放送当時から言われてることですよ。私の半身云々と言い回しを工夫する前に自分の発言の妥当性を鑑みられてはいかがですか?
俺は古典派なんだけど・・・
声優陣については くさやの干物 みたいな物だと考えます。
そのこころは 馴れると美味しい(笑)
賛成です。
Second season?
ワイドボーンは強硬に正面攻撃を主張して死ぬ。
演出が弱いんですかねぇ。前作がアニメ版大河ドラマだったのに、イケメンを愛でるだけのアニメになってしまった。
They ruin the uniform completely >_
Where can I watch this? The link in descritpion was useless.
声優にアレコレ言ってもしょうがないかなと。
現在の名声優も若い頃には色々言われたものです。
それよりもやはりただの宇宙戦争アニメにしてしまったのが罪深いかな。
国の在り方、政治の在り方、軍人の在り方、民衆の存在意義など、これ程考えさせられたアニメは無かったのに…
I think one of the reasons why people were confused as to why Yang won the battle, remember, Actual Space battle is pretty massive due to it's scale and numbers (for example, a fleet of 2000 ships is consider a small force that isn't suitable to even fight but to occupied a planet while the average fleet is around 10k - 15k+ ships), and traveling and fighting takes hours, days to even weeks,
and DNT isn't doing a good job relaying that message, due to their pew pew laser, lack of information and mainly it's overhyped OST felt like the battle only took couple of mins or hour short, plus having the simulator end interruptedly like this doesn't really teach Wideborn or anyone anything, words doesn't help, at the very least give him a chance so we can see yang trolling him by running away.
edit: but i guess all of this is for pacing
I was afraid of the new show trying to be an action series.
@@icefire5799For now it's still hard to judge, so far in DNT, the stories goes the same, tho with questionable but still friendly story pacing towards newcomers.
このシミュレーターやってみたいなぁ...どこかのゲームメーカーが作ってくれないかな？
2.06 vice admiral Sidney Sithole
外伝...すこ
2:06 vice admiral Sidney what now?
銀雄伝を次に作る時は、ＡＩの進歩を想定に入れないとならんね。
新作もアニメとしては普通に良い出来だったと思います。
しかし、旧作と違い「名作」の仲間入りはできないという印象でした。
新作の発表があったときは、旧作の作画の手抜き回(部分)などを修正するだけだと思ったんですけどね。。。
まぁ、アニメ業界としては、食いつなぐためにも、そして声優を育てるためにも？必要なことだったのかもしれません。。。
新作をきっかけに、旧作を見てもらえたらと思いますね。作画中心ではなく物語を中心に見てほしいです。
？？？「たかが一門の砲で何ができる！！」
Comment #100
The winner is Yang Wenli
they still made this with wrong visual design. Ships must be look vast and heavy. But they looks and moves like a single manned fighter.
Thrawn might be disappointed
確か、【ワイドボーンのモデルって､佐賀が産んだ愚人､牟田口レンヤでしたよね、】
謎ルール
アスターテでもあったけど艦隊表示が可笑しくない？
中央突破の最中に徐々に方向転換して片側に攻撃集中？
もう一方の艦隊に完全に背後取られてるけど？
前方の艦隊は受け流しに徹して後方の艦隊は紡錘陣形の後方を攻撃
敵中で方向転換中で突破力のないワイドボーン艦隊は包囲され壊滅
エネルギーが尽きるほどの猛攻で脱出した艦も補給艦の全滅により
補給が受けられず降伏か撃破され全滅判定を超える６～７割の未帰還率
って
とこでしょう。
これが首席の戦いですか？。
それに補給部隊全滅、即敗北ルールでやってるんなら
云わば将棋で自陣に桂馬が乗り込んでるのを無視して
詰みにされたようなもの、擁護どころか笑いものだろう。
戦術でさえないゴリゴリの力押しだもんな。
Hoi4 and Sterallis gamers be like.
原作では相手の補給を叩き持久戦をすることによって勝利するのに、これじゃあバグを利用したみたいになっている
これでは「正々堂々と戦っていれば勝った」と批判したワイドボーンの方が正しくなってしまう
新作が批判されてるのは決して旧作が素晴らしかった思い出補正だけではない、こういうところにあると思う
特にイケメンキャラが多すぎてラインハルトが普通に見えてしまう現象などは失笑物だと思う
Sithole
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sithole
I thought he just used tactics from history, so this was Cannae
Just out of curiosity, but why would you say this is Canne? I can see the similarities but to me that seems like a but if a stretch. Though, Roman history isn't my speciality.
@@felixsulla4037 It's the double envelopment. Yang sends out his cavalry detachment (as did Hannibal) and waits for the enemy to smash into his centre, which he has ordered to withdraw or at least keep busy. His flanks then double envelop, and his cavalry detachment comes back to create the full encirclement.
It's almost textbook Cannae.
The simulation "ends" before the trap is sprung because the cavalry raids the baggage, which makes Yang look like Ender from Ender's Game - "the enemy's gate is down." But he actually had the battle well in control even if he had to fight it to the end had his initial strategy not worked - which is well within Yang's capability.
旧作と感じる違和感は、なんだろうと考えたら、このシーンに代表されるように、個性ある銀英伝のキャラを際立たせられない表現力の差かと思えました。
このシーンは、ヤンの思考を表す象徴的なシーンなのですが、ちょっとアッサリしすぎていますね。
BGMもクラシックの曲が合ってたのに何で変えちゃったんだろう？
あと、同盟艦隊の戦艦とかの形変わりすぎ。旧作のヒューベリオンとかすごくカッコよかったけど、今のはちょっと変かな
@@user-fu3fr1kh2j
自分は、オープニングにチョッとだけ出てた「トリグラフ」とおぼしき艦を見て・・・
カイ・シデンのあの一言を発してしまいました。
「何だ？あの不細工なの？」
フィッシャーが同じ艦隊にいて直に魔術を見せられてヤンに心腹していく様子や、13艦隊結成時のシトレ元帥とヤンのやり取り、ホーウッドの最期に見せ場があるなど良い部分もいくつもあるのですが、カストロプ動乱などあきらかに話のおかしい回があるのが残念ですね。
旧作ではドモンがヒステリックな良い演技をしていた。シトレ校長も声を当ててる人を知らないせいかまるで感情移入できない。
It's just not the same
원작에서는 보급을 끊고 지연전으로 이기는데 여기서는 묘사가 좀 이상하네
Suitable for HK situation. :)
ワイドボーンは噛ませもいいとこ。所詮ザコ
ジャン・ロベール・ラップが生きていたらなぁ。
間違いなく優秀な艦隊指揮官になって、ヤン・ウェンリーの負担も減っただろうに。
Anyone know the title?
銀河英雄伝説 Die Neue These
藤崎竜版の銀英伝はいいぞ。
藤竜版
軍服のデザインが気に入らんが・・・
他は素晴らしいと思う♪♪♪
@@user-pt5iq9fy8c うん。あの短パンみたいなのをミュッケンベルガー元帥が着てるのは厳しいと思った。
でもそれ以外はすごく良いですよね。
いい感じでアレンジされてる(≧∇≦)b
Amateurs talk about tactics, professionals study logistics.
でも実際、戦術面から見たらワイドボーンの方が勝ってるよね？
いくら補給線を叩いたとしてもヤンの残存戦力じゃ長期戦に持ち込むのは無理だろうし、戦域想定的にも敗走までの時間を稼ぐのが関の山でしょ…
補給線を潰されたワイドボーンも追撃は出来ないから撤退するしかない状況を作り出した。
ただ普通はワイドボーンが戦術、戦略的に勝っていたところにヤンが奇策で引き分けにもって行ったってのが正しいじゃないかな？
もっとも、補給線を潰されてから本領発揮するマジキチ軍隊がいるくらいだから…
ここまでの短期戦で補給を潰す意味さえないかもしれんな
You're too Late for TH-cam hahaha
これワイドボーン君が無能になってもうてへん？
ワイドボーンは一応秀才なんですけど、、
😍😍
Anyone else first see the headmaster’s surname as sh$thole?
This excellently shows one of Yangs worst characteristics: he is ready to sacrifice an entire fleet to achieve an objective
This is such a bad take. What this *really* showed was Yang understanding what the win condition was. By achieving *his* objective he achieved the victory and the simulation ended. The point was that Yang understood how to achieve the objective with the smallest number of casualties as he knew Wideborn would ignore the detached force.
Wow. If you think that's even a characteristic of Yang's, you haven't watched this show. Yang tends to do his best to win with minimal casualties. This was a simulation, so lives weren't on the line.
Even if he'd have lost more ships with intact supplies the smaller fleet would resupply weapons, fuel and food. A hungry, fuel-starved fleet with no missiles and empty weapon batteries won't be a match, even if it's considerably bigger. Lose the first fight to decisively win the second is smart strategic thinking.
Yang knows the conditions of how the simulation works. So he planned to win it in the most sure of unorthodox way. Which is to cut the enemy supply and win immediately.
This just shows one thing. He knows many ways to win. He goes for the fastest most efficient unexpected sure win way. He knows how to exploit victory conditions (This simulation have a victory condition that was overlooked, he took that).
I'm pretty sure that was intended to showcase Yang in terms of tactical decisions.
セコい勝ち方だな。
スポーツでは無いのだから 命をかけた戦い セコくても生き残った方がいい。
@@user-wm5fh5bm4x
その割にはシミュレーションが雑なんですよね、補給部隊がやられたらいきなり行動停止って。
そういうシミュレーション特有の振る舞いに依存した攻め方が「セコい」と感じました。
Only amateur will think about strategy
味方の補給の維持、及び敵補給線の切断は戦略上の基礎の基礎だぞ
そんな事も理解していない奴が戦略研究科の学生で、しかも学年最優秀で10年に一度の逸材と評されている時点でお察し
일본은 보급을 무시하는게 전통인가... 임팔도 그렇고;;;
wideborn actually died in combat
@ArulVon Fadhilah unknown, the novel said he died in combat and was posthumously promoted two ranks to rear admiral. I assume it was due to the same tactic he employed when facing Yang, and that same tactic got him killed irl.
落第せずに済んだ
満足してるのは声優のファンだけだろうな
あと、作画厨もいると思う。下手に批判すると懐古厨と総攻撃を食らうので言いにくい。。。ｗ
まぁ、今はそういうファンがお金を使ってアニメ業界にお金を落としてくれるのだろうから、致し方ないのかもしれませんな。
つーか別動隊が分離して動き出しているのを把握しておいて、疑わない提督とか無能すぎるやろｗ どういう狙いかを確認せーよ。背後に回るだろ？みたいな推測で艦隊戦に挑むとかｗ これで主席候補ってのがｗ
左舷弾幕薄いぞ！
何してる！
So Wideborn's fleet immediately runs out of supplies? What a stupidly unrealistic simulation.
Ben Robbins simulations usually go this way because even if he defeats the enemy fleet, Without supply’s he can’t refuel or even feed the crew and if your months or even just weeks away from the nearest planet your crew will starve.
It made more sense in the ova where it was more strategic than tactical, like 4x game. But that smdescribes most of dnt, now, doesn't it
@@Skuddudles What stops Wideborn's fleet from simply making an attempt to capture Yangs supplies, or plundering the destroyed ships or nearby planets for resources.
Also supplies and logistics are extremely important but wouldn't warship's have ample supplies stocked within them to continue operating for some time away from supply lines. If this anime and you are suggesting that these ships either have few supplies, fuel, and ammo on stock then this sci fi military is extremely stupid.
Modern navies require ships to be able to go months without resupply or be somewhat self sufficient. I would expect space ships to be required to do the same if not have onboard supplies to last far longer
@@CountKibblesNBits In the end it is a simulation. But we also don't know how far away they are from the nearest habitual planet. also during a battle especially one of that size they will use a huge amount of resources. Ships may have to borrow supplies from other ships after the battle to handle wounded, repairs, leaking fuel, and even food for ships that sustain damage in the cargo hold. In a real battle Wideborn would win but loose his supplies. now that could easily mean he just simply hurries home and restocks. But since we aren't given context of where they are his supplies are the life and blood of his fleet. Meaning loosing them means loosing everything.
Yang Wenli later explained after the simulation that no matter the time period, it doesn't matter how strong your military force is if your supply line gets destroyed. This is constant throughout human history.
I always been bothered by the headmaster's name. It might be considered racist.