Daniel Schmachtenberger: "Modeling the Drivers of the Metacrisis” | The Great Simplification #42
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 6 ก.ย. 2024
- In this fourth installment of conversations with Daniel Schmachtenberger, we dive deeper into the nuances of humans using energy, materials and technology. Human’s ability to develop and use tools is one of our greatest strengths - yet has also led to increasing destruction of the natural world. How does technology intensify the binding effects of a world order based on growth? Is there any way out - or could global solutions just make the problem worse?
Daniel Schmachtenberger is a founding member of The Consilience Project, aimed at improving public sensemaking and dialogue.
The throughline of his interests has to do with ways of improving the health and development of individuals and society, with a virtuous relationship between the two as a goal.
Towards these ends, he’s had particular interest in the topics of catastrophic and existential risk, civilization and institutional decay and collapse as well as progress, collective action problems, social organization theories, and the relevant domains in philosophy and science.
Find out more, and show notes: www.thegreatsi...
#thegreatsimplification #natehagens #danielschmachtenberger #energy
I seek out, listen to and read everything I possibly can about the complexity of our modern dilemmas and, by far, there’s no one getting to the heart of it all like you two. So once again, thank you.
I did the slave calculator. 64 slaves work for me. You bet that’s gonna be zero next time I do it
Dr Jason Box has a book/channel called “faster than forecast” that I highly encourage everyone to check out!
find peter joseph
@@aerobique Peter Joseph is ridiculous. I had enormous respect for his initial documentaries and followed him closely for many years, but in recent years his angry adolescent radical-leftism and Trump-derangement-syndrome has been an absolute destruction of his credibility. If you're still thinking that his sense-making is valid and constructive then it's likely that you're ideologically-captured like he is. At this point he is part of the problem, as a rabid cultist for the radical-left. Solutions WILL NOT come from people like that.
Has understanding the complexity helped you to take actions towards a solution?
We need to consider reformatting the title of these - BEND NOT BREAK #4 - "Modeling the Drivers of the Metacrisis" and so on. When I'm trying to watch these in sequence it's a bit foggy. Sorry, love this so much, been watching them in a loop, trying to grasp all this knowledge and wisdom, love it, love it. Thank you so much to you both! Encore!! ;-)
Daniel needs to start writing books! You two are the best.
The Absolute thrill of seeing a new Nate & Daniel conversation in my recommendations. I shamelessly shriek like a fangirl every time haha. No matter the mood I am each of these installments have left me feeling mindful, hopeful, and reoriented to pursuing what I find actually meaningful both personally and professionally. Each conversation feels like I'm an astronaut looking down to earth and feeling the overview effect and considering the improbability of the glass blue marble in the void. I love this series for its ability to prompt these reflections every few months or so. Hope you never stop
I feel pretty much the same as you do.
Third. ❤
Daniel’s off-topic addition at the very last when he spoke of the sacred seems to me to be THE topic.
I love Daniel’s brilliant cerebral analysis and mapping, but it also depresses me. I don’t see it happening. I don’t think we are mature enough, capable of much of any of it, especially if we continue to focus only on logistics and head work and don’t equally embody some sort of change of heart, undergo some sort of accelerated spiritual or moral growth and maturing. A fully incarnational paradigm shift.
We are out of time for any sort of smooth transition, and I think it’s important to prepare people for the pain and suffering that lie ahead. I think we are all weary of not being told the truth, alternately lectured or bright-sided or shocked into varying states of compliance and complacency. It’s time to get real.
very well said!!!
"You have been telling the people that this is the Eleventh Hour, now you must go back and tell the people that this is the Hour. And there are things to be considered . . .
Where are you living?
What are you doing?
What are your relationships?
Are you in right relation?
Where is your water?
Know your garden.
It is time to speak your Truth.
Create your community.
Be good to each other.
And do not look outside yourself for the leader."
Then he clasped his hands together, smiled, and said, "This could be a good time!"
"There is a river flowing now very fast. It is so great and swift that there are those who will be afraid. They will try to hold on to the shore. They will feel they are torn apart and will suffer greatly.
"Know the river has its destination. The elders say we must let go of the shore, push off into the middle of the river, keep our eyes open, and our heads above water. And I say, see who is in there with you and celebrate. At this time in history, we are to take nothing personally, Least of all ourselves. For the moment that we do, our spiritual growth and journey comes to a halt.
"The time for the lone wolf is over. Gather yourselves! Banish the word struggle from you attitude and your vocabulary. All that we do now must be done in a sacred manner and in celebration.
"We are the ones we've been waiting for."
-- attributed to an unnamed Hopi elder
Hopi Nation
Oraibi, Arizona
Thank you for that. I heard that many years ago and tried to convince my friends to heed those words. Great list of goals. I'm building soil health ASAP.
I just discovered Daniel a few days ago, and OF COURSE you two are working together... These conversations are changing everything for me in consistently positive ways. Can't thank you enough.
The rebel wisdom interviews with Daniel are good, Lex Friedman interviewed him too.
@@peterhardie4151 I would say his visits to The Stoa are better than RW and LF. But they are ALL worthwhile. And SysBanana you might also want to be aware of Charles Eisenstein, if not already. DS and CE have done 2 talks, also.
@@c3bhm Charles wears nice jumpers.
@@peterhardie4151 Rebel Wisdom is where I first started listening to him. (Funny you should mention it. 😆)
@@c3bhm Thanks! Will do. 👋
These conversations need to be made in a epic story that shape a new myth.
Abstractions for a new future.
Video essay would be great.
Exactly. Let's start crafting symbolic stories that plug into modern contexts to afford us realistic optimism, decentralized collaboration, and a transcendent, authentic, personal spiritual development narrative that encourages us to confront and overcome the emergent obstacle landscape.
Yes
@@nateTheNomad23 I've got one. We need to write good utopias again.
Daniel is an excelent speaker - I will follow him more.
I am a water filtration operator in a manufacturing plant and I am hyper vigilant about the purity of water that I send out of our plant.... a drop in the ocean , I know, but its where we all must start.
Water and air quality are paramount. Thanks for your vigilance.
When I was a child we could drink water out of the streams in California. Now the only potable drinking water comes from our taps. This is ecosystem degradation in action.
@@EvolutionWendy Yes, I would hike in the San Bernardino Mountains and drink water right from the streams! (I'm 71 now.)
Thank you for your work. When I was growing up on a farm with a creek, we always drank out of the creek. I would not dream of doing that today. I'm 76, and I am wondering how our generation ruined so much. Sadly, I am thankful for not having children, as many of my friends also chose not to do. Our county has explosive growth. I wonder where the drinking water will come from. My well is not keeping up. I save a little rainwater for coffee. I'm definitely trying to not using much water in gardening by building soil health through level 4 Regenerative Ag. Good luck, all.
I wish we could force all the politicians, business leaders and influencers in the world to listen to your interviews Nate.
You can lead a horse to water…
@@AJ.Rafael but you can’t make them think!!! 😂
My friend has the optimistic view that we will develop solutions to the problems we see in the world eventually, even if it takes hundreds of years. I hope we will because of people like Daniel and Nate but it will be very, very hard and we can't have hundreds of years of developing because that would probably include a long period of chaos. My struggle is conveying the meta-crisis to 'laypeople' and therefore conveying how hard it would be to turn down a new path(s), away from these existential risks we face.
I have a similar struggle, most people I know are aware that there are problems, but have turned to nihilism or hedonism rather than face the complexity
@@JB-yg3ew tough. I have people having bouts of nihilism. Not hedonism though. It's easier to bring them back from nihilism I feel...
This ongoing dialogue covers the same issue as so many other conversations about "How can civilization escape the multipolar trap that appears to be self-terminating (euphemism for extinction of higher life on Earth)?" Daniel continues to convey an impressive yet incomplete understanding of the topic at hand, dancing with Nate around the role of energy flow (power), while failing to formally distinguish syntropic energy flow/power from mankind's unnecessary, destructive and unsustainable use of entropic energy flow/power. "Syntropy" is the name for the third attractor Daniel is seeking, and once this is articulated clearly, there will be greater clarity/awareness.
Consider how our Biosphere works - a cycle of plant producers, animal consumers and fungal recyclers, where Entropic consumption by animals is restrained in service of a Syntropic whole that has capacity to sustainably unfold with ever-greater beauty, wisdom and complexity. Human animals have (temporarily) escaped ecological/Darwinian constraints on our consumption, with the disastrous results. Without self-restraint, humans have focused our abilities to cooperate on exponentially entropic projects (warfare, industrial consumption). This is NOT adaptive. For example. GDP is an accounting of entropic power (mostly), and therefore a misnomer, destructive not productive. It should be called GDD (gross domestic destruction) or GDE (gross domestic entropy). "Economic growth" is another oxymoron. Our industrial economy is destructive and wasteful, and in opposition to true growth within our syntropic planet.
This suggests the solution: to avoid external restraint from a collapsing Biosphere (via mass die-off), we must develop as much syntropy at the spiritual/psychological/social levels as possible to allow self-restraint (self-regulation). This is possible at individual and collective levels given our current level of knowledge. Syntropic power is more precious and valuable than entropic power, it is the path to health, beauty, wisdom and happiness, and it requires free, autonomous and self-regulated individuals who have capacity to manage (and mostly renounce) entropic power unless it is in the service of our syntropic planet. This is the ONLY path, as far as I can see it - we must cultivate attitudes, knowledge and capacities for Syntropic communities, including freely-chosen self-restraint of unnecessary entropic tech/power.
We need to end the need to earn a living, it is what forces us to sell our values. Everyone has to start talking about the need to meet everyone's needs unconditionally.
This was great as always. Please please have that next conversation with Daniel sooner than later. I’m especially interested in this aspect of the sacredness of nature and how growth can occur in a new realm. I’ve been thinking a lot about this lately, and I agree with Daniel that on some level future change has to occur through this aspect of sacredness. I don’t see any other way.
Thank you, thank you. A thousand times Yes!
With you, completely. I think of these experiences -- awareness of, respect and love for the sacredness of Life (as Nature), and the desire to learn from it, which naturally arises from that respect -- as a pivoting point for first full awakening out the dream that is Western civilization and culture. It is also cardinal in understanding where and how the workability of the culture's primary paradigms break down. It is an essential through-put. Without it, everything must and will spin out of control.
This is what I've seen for longer than I can recall, but lacked the words to fully express except in the ways I've chosen to live my life, professionally and personally. I am so grateful to have found a family with whom I can continue to learn and grow, where this is understood with clarity -- in a totally integrative way -- and discussed as a first principle, where the intention is to get this understanding expressed into the culture in grounded and graspable ways, and toward proactive ends.
What seems absent from the game theoretical models Daniel mentions is trust. You build trust by being around each other without incident. When there's enough trust that you can tolerate each other's presence (and even attention), you can start discovering each other's virtues via experimentation/coincidence. If you work together, you don't have to worry about the other guys anymore, since you should be the largest. I call it the game of trust, it starts as a series of games without a winner of loser, if there is no loser (no party fought or fled), trust is gained. Once virtues are found, rules and ideals can be agreed on, and friendly cooperative and competitive games can be played, as an alternative to conflict.
Cooperative work,that is what we need to understand.
Interesting comments. I like the way modern games and sport are used to play out conflict and in most cases bring people closer to a common pursuit. In terms of trust I think humans are bias towards distrust as a survival instinct from our past and this can cause factions to arise.
I could listen to Daniel all day in the hope that some of that considered and lucid thinking rubs off, you too of course Nate
Part of the walking worried wanting to contribute to threading this impossible needle we have before us, turning up to these conversations with the hope of finding some directionality and vision and its nice to see that somewhat shaping up. I hope the grid discussion crystalises some tangible workable solutions for the rest of us to work on. Understanding so much of the metacrisis through Daniel's eyes over the last two years intuitively and cognitively yet having such little agency has been soul crushing for me to say the least.
It’s worth trying to find people you can have these conversations with so you can digest these big topics in a communal way 🌿 wish you the best & feel free to get in touch or join our gatherings 🌅🪷🖖
Hi Daniel and Nate,
I just got home from doing a beach survey of endangered birds on my electric bike.
I have been vegan for 12 years.
I am making changes.
We can all make changes.
We can acknowledge that we can make such choices as we reasonably can to move things in a sustainable direction.
Agree that we need to transition to long term sustainability, we need to close a lot of currently open material loops.
The curve is not 200,000 years old, it is 4 billion years old.
It is a "double" exponential.
Not only are the levels of complexity increasing exponentially faster, but the number of infinite dimensions is also increasing exponentially.
The multiple levels of systems within our subconscious brains, and our various social and linguistic structures, that tend to simplify the complexity present, to create whatever it is that we each individually experience as reality for us, tend to blind us to the complexity and uncertainty actually present.
Yes we can make tools and abstractions, and that is powerful for us; and it has an exponentially increasing tendency to make us over confident about our simplistic assumptions and approximations.
Yes, we can do recursive abstraction, and it necessarily gets exponentially more complex and time consuming as we do so. I have gone to 12th level abstraction, and that is impossible to communicate to other individuals.
There are tensions between sociality and creativity. The multiple levels of pressures for social agreement are direct constraints on individual freedom and creativity.
Agree with Daniel about a "third attractor", and agree that it is "not easy", and as I see it, it is empowerment of all. We need indefinite life extension. Ordinary people need to have a reasonable probability of living with the long term consequences of their actions. When we have that, then we will get the sorts of coordination and cooperation that are the only real counter to the threats of central control, and capture of powerful systems by non-aligned agents. Ordinary people need to be empowered with the time and incentive and willingness to challenge authority, required to counter the risks from authority. And no strategy is without risk. The great strength comes from cooperating diversity (all levels, all domains).
When one can view life as "Search", across domains of the possible for systems that are survivable, and one can appreciate that for a fully loaded processor, the most efficient search possible is the fully random search, then having multiple independent levels and systems of "Search" is actually the safest long term strategy.
Understanding how we got here is one of the hardest parts.
Understanding the fundamental role of cooperation in the emergence and survival of complexity is hard. It is deeply complex.
It is much easier to simplify it down to - Evolution is competition. That is easy, and it is wrong! Wrong at a level that embodies existential level risk.
The idea of a superstructure of coordination has some value, but it seems to me to be much more closely some version of random search delivering patterns that work in practice in some set of contexts - at least to the degree that they do, which is better than most others they have encountered - which is a higher level evolutionary selection system.
Yes - groups with their entire "tech stack" and their entire "conceptual stack" part of which is their "social stack".
Yes - we select across all levels, simultaneously - even those most are not aware of.
Yes we have the necessity of stewardship, and that necessity extends far beyond the "biosphere".
Yes - the "in group" has to include everyone - even those we like least.
Our motive can be ordinary evolutionary motive - to survive - on the longest term imaginable.
Agree that distributed understanding is fundamental.
Where we seem to fundamentally part ways is around the solution space.
The idea that we need to rethink "info-sharing" cannot end well - it necessarily results in some sort of fixed caste system, and some form of totalitarianism.
What is needed is far deeper understanding of uncertainty, and the responsibility that necessarily comes from that.
We need systems that allow anyone to progress through any set of systems, provided that they can demonstrate awareness of appropriate levels of responsibility. No set of fixed rules or systems can ever be sufficient. It demands responsibility of all individuals, all levels. It is never enough (at any level) to simply follow the rules. The "rule of law" is and always was an overly simplistic approximation to what is needed. It is a simplistic form of boundary that has uses in some contexts, but always contains at least as many dangers as benefits, as many of today's systemic spaces adequately demonstrate.
We must stop telling people that following rules is good enough. It isn't. Never was. Never can be.
Any level of freedom demands an appropriate level of cooperation and responsibility and respect for diversity if it is to survive.
The mathematics of that is beyond any shadow of reasonable doubt.
Rule of law alone removes "Search", and that limits the advancement of knowledge, and that increases the risk from the unknown unknown.
We need search at the boundaries, eternally, if long term survival is the desired outcome.
That has to be fundamental to the systemic space design. It was clearly a deep aspect of many ancient cultures.
Freedom is fundamental - even if guys like Sam Harris and Trick Slattery are so bounded by their assumptions that they are unable to conceive of it - that doesn't change the reality of it.
Any system of governance has to have freedom, responsibility, cooperation and respect as founding principles - all of them are fundamentally mathematically linked to the long term survival of the evolution of complex systems. No logical escape from that in any form of logic I have explored (and I have explored a few sets of non-binary logics).
Anything not firmly based in those principles is by definition some form of totalitarianism in disguise.
It has to start at the level of the individual - if it is to have any long term chance of survival.
Freedom and responsibility have to be foundational at every level, every stack, and they both necessarily contain uncertainties - no logical escape from that - ever!
The freedom of individuals is important - fundamentally so; but the part that is often missing in the American experiment is that all such freedom has to be accompanied by cooperation, respect, and responsibility (all levels, all domains, all stacks).
Anything less than that and freedom self terminates - necessarily.
Any system without freedom self terminates - necessarily.
Respect has to lead to acceptance of any diversity that is not an actual and unreasonable threat to the survival of any.
These have to be fundamental to all axes, all grids, eternally.
Everything else is necessarily dynamic and evolving - that is an eternal aspect of "Search", of life itself.
A sense of the sacred is important, and it cannot dominate the ideas of freedom and creativity. Part of responsibility is finding a context sensitive balance in any and all specific contexts.
What is required in all domains is acceptance that competition is only survivable if it is built on a cooperative base.
That is a fundamental given.
Thanks for your comment. Do you have any work I could look at to get a deeper sense of this?
Seeking hope and spread the word is my individual action.Talk about it with people around😊
So much to absorb over these 4 podcasts, looking forward to 5. Thank you both Daniel and Nate for not giving up on trying to figure out how we're going to make it through the coming years, and letting us listen to these conversations. Peace
That was an awesome conversation. My response is that we should emphasise Cultural Enlightenment because that will trickle down to everything else. At a minimum, the enlightenment would involve understanding the risks and understanding that it’s time to move from a survival focus to a happiness focus. If we guarantee the basics, i.e. survival and comfort, to everyone, then we can all relax, which will reduce the competition. It will end the multi-polar trap and fix the destruction of the environment. As in the video, I imagine this happening through a mix of grass roots and hyper-agent action.
Moloch. Nash Equilibrium. Prisoner’s Dilemma. Multipolar predicaments. We’re in deep trouble if we don’t get clever/wise and construct a parallel system that governs not by forcing (starving, withholding) but rewarding. Without rewarding (paying for, subsidizing) restoration we’re going to eat our way out of house and home. Great talk btw.
One of the greatest episodes to date.
Spoke with Steve Keen recently. We talked about using "Minsky" to create a "World Game" as outlined by Bucky Fuller in "Critical Path"and "Utopia or Oblivion". To "make the world work for 100% of humanity in the shortest possible time through spontaneous cooperation without ecological damage or disadvantage to anyone." Recruiting some programming talent to see how far we can push it.
Hopefully the data from several iterations can offer some real world insights, strategies, and heuristics.
Good luck!
Hey, this is interesting, can you direct me to a starting point for more info?
Bucky Fuller! The man! The spirit of these dialogues is something that would have made Bucky so happy indeed.
Nate and Daniel your work is so valuable thanks a lot 😊👍
Thank you! Looking forward to the next conversation.
Fantastic episode! I did not know about Daniel Schmachtenberger before, now he's definitely on my radar.
1:21 people would immediately "choose" to consume less if we banned all advertising.
03:02 - Maximum Power Principle
05:13 - Superorganism
08:13 - Biodiversity loss, climate change, ocean acidification
11:37 - Ecological economics + the problems with GDP
14:03 - Metcalfe’s Law
14:14 - Limited Liability Company
16:39 - China taking Tibet, Colonial genocide of Native Americans
21:31 - Regulation on cigarettes and reduction in people who smoke
21:58 - Companies knew health effects of smoking for a long time
22:20 - There is no industry that doesn’t need energy
22:42 - CFCs regulation and the ozone
25:42 - Germany importing coal and cutting down old-growth forests
26:26 - Brazil cutting down rainforests for soybean industry
39:31 - Pareto Distribution
41:41 - If you factored in the cost of all externalities, no industry would be profitable
46:20 - Mutation and evolution
48:45 - Other animals use tools
50:05 - Humans are able to use abstractions to develop tools
52:08 - Humans are ultrasocial
52:15 - Jonathan Haidt The Righteous Mind
54:04 - Dunbar’s number
56:40 - Language was a major tool for humans
57:36 - Agrarian Revolution
1:01:53 - Pinker and Rosling Narrative
1:02:15 - Positive, Negative, and Zero Sum
1:05:01 - The 4th Industrial Revolution
1:06:05 - Fossil fuels provide the equivalent of 500 billion human workers
1:06:45 - Human population growth
1:09:15 - The origin of banking, interest, and modern monetary system
1:11:08 - Lithium 900% more costly, Olivia Lazard
1:15:08 - The average American uses 57 barrel of oil equivalents of fossil fuels/year + 17 from finished products imported
1:15:32 - Online Slave Calculator
1:16:00 - Gini Coefficient
1:23:45 - Group Selection
1:43:15 - Jevons Paradox
1:46:25 - Financial musical chairs moment
1:47:28 - Human migration is fixed from climate effects
1:50:25 - Francis Fukuyama and others - Russia collapse isn’t far away
1:52:38 - We use social sorting mechanisms to solve physical world problems
1:57:42 - Lawrence Lessig
1:57:45 - Rank Choice Voting, Gerrymandering, Campaign Finance Reforms
1:58:15 - B Corp Legislation
2:05:40 - Porcupine Tree
Took me a few days to get through but the conversation definitely builds a stable bridge into triaging the types of transitional systems that are needed as we progress into the future. Any form of global rule will be unlikely but the concept of smaller transitory initiatives that can cause us to "bend not break" seems like a good place to start. Like Daniel mentioned there are already existing system that exemplify transitory success like ranked choice voting.
A note on Daniel's dream, one of my personal goals over the past few years has been to improve my relationship with water. A sanctification of the external and internal world is what will relieve the "knife poised at our own hearts" as Terence McKenna once said.
Be like water my friend :)
Water is sacred and nestle knows it…It would be nice to see Daniel and alike building an organisation over many countries
it has been revealed there is an abundance of water, an entirely different source below us “ in the deep”, so many things are just being kept from us
I have a feeling that while we are struggling to keep up and build the same mental model he has, Daniel is bored to tears talking about this, as it's so trivial for him.
My goodness I can't help myself listening these two guys over and over again...brilliant minds on this planet Earth! Thansk a billions!!your fan from Brazil!
Thanks to Nate for nailing Daniel down
This is exactly the right conversation to have. The leverage points are rare and far between. But the full attempt and effort to slow down and stabilize the mega machine must still be made. Resilience now, even in its failure, will help whatever resilience well emerge in the future. We are powerful, but even we are incapable of extinguishing all life.
So fortunate to have been brought to such an exemplary rendition of a conversation such as this. My sincerest gratitude to you both.
Never clicked so fast. Thanks for all the great content
"We are ethically responsible for what we could do, but don't, as well as for what we do. We [ have technologically evolved] beyond an apex predator. Because we have the ability to build these adaptive abstractions on top of each other faster than nature can build resilience to that, we have the ability to advantage ourselves at the expense of nature. We have the ability to destroy whole ecosystems in a way that no other animal can. Because we have the capacity to destroy the biosphere on which we depend, we have the necessity to steward it. I am-because we are, with the WE being everything we depend upon in the biosphere."
I am definitely one of the Walking Worried, yes... thank you to both of you for this series of discussions.
I found myself entering into your conversation so many times, aloud and empowered by your topics of discussion that I had to laugh at myself. When Nate went through the beginnings of the list of precursors necessary for us as a species to arrest ourselves and steer ourselves into a symbiotic relationship with the natural systems our world provides, and asked what it would take, I was uttering the word "realization" over and over, then Daniel comes in with "all of the above" I sighed in relief. My daily thoughts and onboard computer is constantly searching for a solution to this problem of how can we get everyone alive to this existential predicament we find ourselves in without conflict and with speed and enough sustenance for even the greediest arsehole to comply with. I have reduced my energy consumption considerably and talk a lot to others about preparedness and resillience toward what is coming. I feel very alone sometimes. I can see where it has all been going for a long time and it saddens me immensely. Thank you both for your presentations. In my work, I align myself to Permacultural principles of low technology wherever possible and every installation in my environment must have a minimum of three uses but more if possible. My primary energy sources of course are of the Sun, Soil, Plants, Water, and my own conscious awareness.
It sounds like you have a great start to regenerative living- if this is a better way of being it should naturally attract more and more people to join. The issue I see is that alternatives like cooperatives and ecovillages are still so few and far between.. If every neighborhood had a group that was organizing land trusts and building up to a village mindset that worked together that could support each other as a collective coop, if people could feel safe, welcomed, feel like they could have stability there- who wouldnt leave the rat race and live this better life? The problem is how do we do that when we are constantly indebted to the system with rents and fees. How do we break out and create a better way of life within the conditions we find now?
@@blank_intensity Thank you for your reply and I would agree had I not tried so often over the last 30+ years to show by example how a healthy lifestyle could be found on so many levels by regenerative agriculture, permaculture, repurposing waste, adaptive recycling, less is more critical thinking and generally living in some balance and harmony with the climates of both New Zealand and Australia. The greatest problem I faced was resistance from others not in sync with the big picture as discussed above and the shifting of paradigms entrenched within each individual and groups of individuals who had opposing ideologies. I was living for a number of years on a large property with supposedly like-minded people all keen to embark on a journey of collective cooperative sustainability with twenty families using the basic ethics proposed by Bill Mollison/David Holmgren in their co-created permacultural based design system mirroring natural ecosystem stability and growth. It fell apart slowly at first then rapidly. The problem was and still is I believe .... egocentricity, narcissistic personality disorder, unresolved childhood trauma, addiction disorders, laziness, greed, short term thinking, fear, and confabulation, the list is long but the source is the same. Humans. I am sure it could work but to find people who have resolved their own issues and are comfortable in their own skins without the need to denigrate and criticize others. People who have a good kind empathic nature willing to work together toward a higher level of consciousness while creating resilience with diversity and love for all things, especially themselves, are probably too much for too many.
@@bobmathieson987 I definitely understand- I've also lived around those kinds of communities and often the same issues would arise. I do think there were past traumas, but also the issues of still trying to find ways to thrive in a world system that goes against how trying to live on the land and in community. And indeed, int he early stages, finding people with the right attitude would be ideal- but how do we accomplish this? Anyway, I'd also like to find other down to earth and empathic people to start a community with, let me know if you'd ever like to try again!
Hey I’ve been looking for like minded to share the actual reality of the subject matter that these brilliant guys Nate and Daniel have been sharing for humanity’s sake I have always sensed spiritually and intuitively that
There is a fundamental flaw in the way our species behave we have a shocking history of a nefarious power greed and profit orientation and entitlement to divide and conquer..own and posses ..destroy and pillage our way to dystopian collapse..but I believe there are people who need this narrative as bravely shared in these podcasts by fellow humans who truly see what’s happening and have dedicated their energy to reach to anyone who can wake-up from the great sleep to see the reality of our potential demise….thank you to all who are awake and concerned…because this may not end well….I’m happy to keep sharing….
This subject should be being taught in school
So much speechless gratitude for your work
I normally don’t write comments but this time I just have to. I always had the feeling that something is not quite right with the human civilisation and where we are going and it made me feel kind of helpless and sad. Disempowered you could say. Now after watching almost all of the schmachtenberger and Hagens videos I regained some hope and a sense of purpose. I mean it still seems really fucking hard but at least now I know what the actual problems are and what would be possible solutions for them. Thank you Nate and Daniel for brilliantly explaining these complex topics.
You should also explore the ideas of Charles Eisenstein.
@@c3bhm Thanks my friend. Just checked out his homepage and it seems like there is a lot more to learn. I will dig into it
We have to grow degrowth pathways ... Isn't it fun being a human alive at this moment?
Love love love this. You both are making my head hurt...but in a good way ❤
I like that Daniel brought up the importance of honest and accurate accounting as a fundamental requirement for aligning our economy with ecological limits. In my view a new global accounting standard is one of the very first tasks on the critical path of our project. "Context based sustainability" (CBS) may one possible useful initial framework for such a new accounting system.
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Context-Based_Sustainability
Love the work that you are doing Nate! These conversations are so inspirering and really help solidify the idea for me that we need a way to iterate on ideas in a collaborative way. Within a system that can capture problems and start mapping solutions that have experts ready to bring up externalities that are not being considered. If we started working on problems this way I feel we could solve many of them with limited externalities and also build technology that helps with other problems that we hadn't considered before.
I’d like to hear Daniel talk about how our species, post standard selection pressures, allows expressions that can not happen otherwise. So things like neurodiversity being expressed far more now, we have a large and growing minority that can think of problems in ways the ultra fit competitor class cannot. These people have always existed in smaller numbers, just like psychopaths/sociopaths, but now that they aren’t selected against anywhere near as much, a whole new class of thinkers and actors is available for differential problem solving.
I would also argue that we didn’t evolve to fit into the world we have created that exists now. But that we are adaptive means we can work within it, under stress, regardless. The dominator class under the delusion that desired outcomes were the best outcomes actively destroyed the expressions of many other potential models that would likely have ended up working better, and we can still try those models. Just don’t want anyone thinking the exiting model is anything we are well adapted to. Maladapted to with the help of antidepressants and addictions perhaps, but it’s not optimal at all.
While i certainly agree there is the problem of distribution and implementation of new memetics. Alot of what could be helpful is most likely drowning in the noise isnt it?
Specially when algorithms are primarily used to boost content that serves the incentive of profit.
People need to exit these systems and form villages based on their needs, values etc, making it clear why they're going a different way. Live in closed-loop communities where they produce a lot more of what they need, then source the rest tangentially from locals - starting inside the village and working outward to rebuild lost local economies. People will drain bureaucratic, corporatized systems by doing this, become much less dependent on transportation and more able to cope without oil/cars/etc when the time comes. And the more of it they can do inside their community without currency, the less they pay taxes to govts, the less they pay money for mass-produced products. And most importantly, they get to live meaningful, thriving lifestyles with real friends & family, close to nature, life balanced to best meet their needs.
This model is highly relevant because it appeals naturally to so many different kinds of people and it minimizes risk/danger across many metrics. It appeals to people across wildly different political beliefs, even in extreme cases, and with widely varied motivating factors- some care more about the environment, while others care more about economic disaster. People naturally envision independent new villages/communities when their values are pushing them to leave systems.
Kanye West was saying something similar to Tucker Carlson in that big famous recent interview.
@@c3bhm That's pretty cool, I didn't see that part. In my experiences the last few years in very different places with very different people, I've recognized the mass Exodus is universal across almost every lifestyle and culture I've witnessed. Nate and many of his guests seem unaware of this; they 've barely scratched the surface, maybe recognizing environmentalists that form "eco villages" and preppers that care about economic collapse.
But this is a whole universe of living, cultures, communities, upheaval, survival, a total overhaul of living. I just started reaching out to people locally, randomly, in my new city to see if anyone is interested in a basic community house. Intergenerational (family friendly, all ages and genders), growing a garden, composting, sharing food, maybe playing some music for bonding. And I got a lot of interest from total strangers. If more of us can set up these transitional beginner houses like this anywhere we are, we'll pave the way for making bigger moves to combine community households into villages with earthships and tiny homes. I think the only real barrier holding people back right now is having no idea how to take smaller steps towards an established village.
Great insights. Intricate interconnections. Water=5th Sacred thing. Not Resources, but Life Sources, or 'Treasures,' as I refer to them. And, Yes, Growth still - but qualitative growth, not physical growth. Endless opportunities for meaningful employment in ways that improve quality of life ~ all of which enhance, not debase, the biosphere. Time for a far less material, and qualitative richer, world. Thank you once again for such an enriching interaction!!
Talking about limits to total consumption in an information / media economy, that reflects the limits of consumer spending alreary in our material / production economy: the buying and funding of a large amount of economic activity is through the military, and government contracted operations and subsidized industries. Weapons manufacturing, animal industries, for example.
Prayer or meditation come to mind as a way of interconnecting empathically and develop spiritual powers to tap into our dimension to draw resources from other dimensions rather that using materials…
This series of talks only demonstrates to me how truly screwed we and humanity are. There will be hell to pay for our negligence regarding our responsibility to nature.
Humanity doesn’t deserve to survive fellas. Go live simply and enjoy the days you have left and to hell with the sleeping masses. They all have their rewards and they will die clutching them and crying.
It’s up to the awake to find what will be worth protecting and preserving to try and create a new world after this one burns down in utter failure.
I love how Nate is able to get Daniel in the "zone", what a great host!
Rich description of the complexity of our modern world. Many thanks.
Thanks you Nate!
What would be interesting would be to discuss and compare the fundamental nature of people from an anthropological view point and to see how environmental and geographical variance affects human nature and therefore decision making within a culture. I’m curious how say Aboriginal people in Australia seemed to have lived in harmony with the environment for 60,000 years before being colonised. What drives some cultures to become disconnected from the natural world.
Fascinating talk. Perhaps we need to talk more about the motives and plans of our elites and how these affect the problem space. I'm not sure that they're very interested in avoiding the central command dystopia that Daniel describes.
Around 1:31:00 Daniel appears to fall for what has been called elsewhere "the populist delusion" - the idea that change can be affected bottom up through popular support. Elite theory would suggest that to effect the kind of change that Daniel describes then there must be elite buy-in, and for elite buy in there must be an opportunity to increase/consolidate power
‘There is no end to talking.” These conversations are a modern version of the age old dilemma that has faced humanity from the beginning. Interesting and engaging and hopefully not just relegated to another sedimentary layer of thoughtful information deposited on the bedrock of our existence. A search for meaning in the perplexing dilemma of finding ourselves ‘in medias res’ endeavoring for a solution to unanswerable questions. Laudable and laughable at the same time.
After watching one Daniel S. video I find youtube now feeding me more.
Nate and Daniel, how do I make my work about what you guys are talking about? I don't see what else there is to care about when these truths are so fundamental. How do I not get caught up in the process of contributing to embedded growth obligations and using more than is rational in every domain of life?
Go join the Future Thinkers intentional-community. They need help!
oh damn you ask this question about individuals
The comment that you both made early on about even a first grader should intuitively understand that we can not have exponential growth on a finite planet needs to be the metric for all human organization, for the global governance mechanism. The instant that proposals and planning from this global governing body step outside this metric must be called out and summarily dismissed and it should be explained in simple terms why. Because it is an absolute truth ...a first grader understands that there are only so many M&Ms in a pack and if there are 5 kids and 20 M&Ms each kid gets 4 M&Ms ...wait ...is that right...wait a minute I need to get my smart phone out.
Point being we are taught from grade 1 to ignore this physical reality and believe instead that technology can over come it.
I had a similar dream as the sacred water dream. My dream was that there was a collective global movement to invest “as much as it takes” to ensure that every single one of our children and top soil are loved and nourished without excuses. That generation of loved & nourished children then grew up to solve all our other problems 🌞🤝🌞🤝🌞
33:30 "Can individuals change their behavior to make a difference?"
Overall, I see there's some peace of mind for individuals to "live below their means" and having more freedom in the future with less dependence upon a system that is destructive. The "goal" is have adaptability at each step of the "Long Emergency" and in those moments of crisis, just have a better sense of what is reasonable to fight for, and what to surrender.
One of the most important conversations right there.
Its just so hard to know the state of the system without getting bogged down hard. Peace
Yes! Long awaited! I’ve been enjoying all of your other podcasts Nate while waiting for this 4th installment. I’m so glad DS brought me to your channel. I’m super grateful for your series of conversations with DS. For me his conversations with you are among the best to be found online.
Well done, Nate and Daniel. This may have been my all time favorite dialogue. I’m looking forward to the next one. I’d love to hear Alex Epstein join you guys. Bend Back Better.
Thumbs up for 'bend back better'.
WOW WOW WOW! That was an incredibly brilliant conversation. Lately I have been watching a lot of videos about early humans and homonins, and I came to a similar conclusion. Up until recently, I thought that our wrong turn was the agricultural revolution, but I think it goes back to our Sapien origins.
What about you look a little closer to our current era and look to the fact that a little over a half century ago a group of scientists warned us for the exact thing that happened and suggested solutions. We could have easily restricted population growth by intro using a maximum number of one or two children. We could have started building nuclear power plants all over the place and we could have invested in solar panels, batteries and all the other things we would have needed at much greater scales much earlier on. If we would have done that we wouldn’t have had any of the problems we face today.
Daniel Schmachtenberger, Balaji Srinivasan, and Leo Gura are 3 guys who make me realize that some people are born with a mind on a whole other level than my own.
lol, I have the same feeling. I think Srinivasan is a rather dangerous thinker though.
@@F--B in what way?
What is your favorite video from Leo? I'd never heard of him but his videos seem interesting.
@@globesurfer122 I think it is difficult to recommend a single one, as he is frequently referring to concepts he has previously covered. As far as I see his videos, they are helping to construct the bigger picture of especially individual human development and spirituality. I can recommend his introduction to spiral dynamics. It's a concept he regularly mentions and which is also extremely helpful in understanding your own development.
Also remember Guy McPherson who put his life for his principles were, and offers convincing science that humans are beyond the point of deciding.
Fuck yes! I love these. Thank you.
Good recognition of the role of Tool (Technology) development. Added to it the recognition of the development of Cooperation. Most of human evolution depended on them.
I appreciate these conversations but it honestly seems to me that you guys are overly complicating the crisis humanity is facing.
The problem I see is that the world is getting so complicated that ppl around the world are losing confidence in all our institutions to be able to make any real positive change. As a result ppl are isolating and just focusing on personal material accumulation . This is causing all kinds of problems further complicating systems and facing physical limits. This growth economy model will crash and not too far in the future. Then what?
Thank you, I agree. This is a fascinating conversation with a brilliant mind, but... It is really overthinking things, because there's no arguing with stupid, as they say.
I think you're over-complicating it too. Its not that people are loosing confidence in our institutions or the world is becoming complicated: people are just idiots. Like contrary to what you're claiming conservatives have LOTS of confidence in conservative institutions, even when those institutions literally do nothing but make their lives worse, often blatantly out in the open in front of people's faces. Liberals have lots of confidence in liberal institutions even when they operate in a very similar fashion to the conservative ones. Its like someone shoveling poop into people's mouths and rather than lashing out at the poop shovelers and beating them up with their shovels, the people just stupidly ask for more poop in their mouths. What will happen when the collapse comes you ask? Well look at the stories of people dying of covid on ICU bed angrily yelling at the nurse saying they don't have it and the virus is a hoax for a preview. That's how people are going to act.
That's why the "personal material accumulation" of many who are in-the-know is prepper-oriented, lately.
Energy is currently coupled to how the population is aligned to central distribution. If population was arranged to in much smaller centres with localized: energy capture; food production; health support. Perhaps we must uncouple some of our systems to a locally operated systems. Government can be hands off, in most ways - once this is set up.
Culturally generated heart and mind will prevent eventual solution. Connection to self and environment, outside of cultural interests and influences) ... will lead us to mindfulness. Daniel mentions a change at a cultural level is required. I suspect much more than we understand. Wee don't get to where we need to be without understanding that .... what we hold in heart and in mind is important.
that thing where you get to invite any 10 people to a dinner party? these are 2 of mine ...
Experts have a reasonable chance to solve complicated problems provided they have achieved a necessary level of understanding along with enough support.
Experts have little or no chance to solve complex problems. There is only restricting and enabling constraints in a very dynamic fitness landscape.
I love this series, thank you both and thank you to the production team. I love Daniel's comment at the end, growth won't end it will shift dimensions. Also, the 3x3x3 grid is exciting, can't wait to hear more.
😂 yeahh growth wil go in the -
Using fire for cooking also accelerated our ability to calorify food so more energy could be employed to develop our brains - this was a benefit byproduct but maybe should be considered another type of recursive improvement mechanism.
Yes. 😢 This is the problem! Listening and hoping you can also articulate ideas about solutions. 🌻
Daniel is always an amazing guest. Little hard to keep up but can try⛵️☀️
Another great discussion - thanks guys.
I came back to delete my previous comments (about no sound) and found them already deleted. BUT it is important for people to know that TH-cam muted sound for about two hours while they reviewed content.
Some people who immediately began to listen heard about 12 minutes of sound. Then the sound cut off for many people, who were commenting " no sound."
And then the sound returned, which is in keeping with listeners knowing that content is carefully controlled reguarding the climate predicament.
All the things I love hearing. Great interview.
What would happen if our currency was backed by (or based on) Nature? Meaning, we inventory what is reasonable to harvest from nature for raw materials to make stuff and base currency supply on that...
Look up the 'natural resource based economy' from the Venus Project and the Zeitgeist Movement.
Enjoyed as usual, thank Nate and Daniel. have a comment: to me it seems that you are most suggesting a peacuful transition by educating people and elites about complex sense-making. I agree that specially about people thats very necessary, but I dont think that elites and power holders will change the direction voluntarily even if they can do a complex sense-making of the metacrisis. They would probably not put long-term collective interest on top of their own short-term self-interest. So a kind of seizing power by grassroot movements becomes a necessary step at some point. And game-theory analytics would definitely help to analyse and empower those movements. Would love to hear a conversation between you and an expert on grassroot and radical counter-hegomonic movements.
Excellent!
it's great to watch this whole discussion and track Daniel's beard growth
What’s wrong with the world dying out, if we are energies anyway. Maybe it’s too late and we should accept our fate and hope as energies we get another go in another realm?
Maybe the whole point is that we realise what we did and that grows our spiritual energy rather than survive?
Wow, Maria, thank you for the wonderful questions!
Thank you for this conversation.
Underemphasizing (or just flat out ignoring) risks for the sake of profits or new technologies almost seems like an obligation in our game-A context? Reminds me of the car salesman from Matilda just selling off cars that are obviously dangerous to operate.
There's nothing we can do, they put that Tru-Coat on at the factory.
Hm
Why wouldnt you if the potential damage is socialized while you enjoy the profits.
Exactly. Now how to bind that predacious behavior is the question, right?
First rate conversation, touching on so many important points! I'm citing the transcript in an essay I'm writing. May I offer one small criticism? Please do not blindly accept Ranked Choice Voting (aka. Instant Runoff Voting) as the only alternative to our current first past the post method. Please look into STAR Voting, which stands for Score Then Automatic Runoff. It's a relatively new innovation in voting methods that solves many of the severe problems with RCV, which was invented before many of the methods of statistical and numerical analyses that now reveal its serious flaws.
Is governance using Sociocracy (in so far as using consensus for decision making as opposed to majority vote) a viable "breadcrumb" for organizing neighborhoods, community, cities, organizations etc? Would you guys be able to speak to that in your next episode? I would love to hear your thoughts.
Wow, what an incredibly stimulating conversation! Thank you for sharing!
At one hour in, he makes me think of the Proto-Indoeuropeans. They are the linguistic ancestors of most European languages, many middle eastern languages, Sanskrit and Hindi, Urdu, and many others. It is believed that the advantage they had over other tribes was the use of horses and wheeled carts. This allowed them to spread over the Steppe and surrounding ecosystems.
Love this guy
If we account for externalities (charge hefty fees when industries deplete resources, emit pollution or destroy wildlife habitat), then share a monetary representation of natural wealth to all people (share the proceeds from the fees), we will align what is profitable with what is sustainable, in an efficient and fair way.
From a moral philosophy perspective, we can say we are making prices honest and sharing natural wealth, to promote sustainability and end poverty.
We have a shared right to define limits to the rate of extraction of various resources and a shared right to benefit from natural wealth. We should make fees just high enough to bring overall impacts into line with what most people think is acceptable. (A system of random polls can show when fees are high enough--when most people say that there's not to much of this or that kind of impact.
Best one yet.
11:06 Daniel describes the classical objective (or labor) theory of value. I wonder if he is conscious of it. It would be interesting to hear them discuss the theory of value of the physiocrats vs the classical.
...I'm watching this, and the term you are looking for is a change from a natural Darwinian Mendelian Evolutionary structure, to a Social Lamarckian Evolutionary structure. Mendelian is the natural evolutionary process that happens where there is no external cross fertilisation of traits outside of the genetics and neutral genetic drift. Lamarckian is where traits can be externalised and inherited, so for example if an Amazonian tribe gets to look at the technological wheel of a more advanced society it suddenly leaps forward in it's understanding and capabilities almost overnight. Mendelian is a slow process that is almost blind and which generates a lot of redundancy (though can be guided by an outside selective agent, cattle, dogs etc.), Lamarckian by contrast can move at the speed of light.
The game theory is not just very hard, but within our current economic landscape, it is literally impossible. The current economic landscape implies pathway restrictions and pathway dependencies for all value-based products and services. It also implies state dependence and state restrictions. Now, that's not typically a problem in most systems - BUT, when you introduce free agents that can decide to step outside of the requisite pathways ON TOP of a currency that represents all value-types into a single, traded commodity (it represents both power and freedom) - you will always have free agents that will do anything that is necessary to get their hands on it. Period. So when your agents step outside of the agreed upon pathways, your systems breaks in one of two ways. 1) they get caught and suffer the consequences which utilizes a dramatic amount of energy to do so, or 2) they don't get caught which necessarily harms another agent(s).
There is no way to solve that. It is mathematically impossible. You have to either get rid of money or get rid of the agents.
I think this gets at why there is no game-mediated way out of this, at least not one with money or agents, like you say. This may sound trite, but we need to move towards seeing life not as a game to win but as a gift to share and safekeep. That's no easy task when we've been so heavily conditioned (in biological, cultural, and economic ways) to approach things from a self-interested status, survival, and procreation-maximizing program. I think many people in the metamodern/spiral dynamics/systems thinking community would call this approach a form of game denial. Except I'm not denying the game, nor am I saying I've moved beyond it and y'all need to follow my program. I'm saying *we* need to move beyond it, together, and that our highest possibility for connection, meaning, and joy awaits us in that potentiality. Such a system can actually tolerate "free riders" because it understands them not as winners of a game, but as victims of game-based thinking that cuts them off from a more expansive reality. As best as I can tell, we will need nurturing and vulnerability to get us there, because what I'm speaking of is a process of healing, not just high level abstraction and systems thinking (useful as that may be).
Or get rid of people.