I think that misinterpretation towards Jiren is understandable in the fandom because it must be understood that the plot now (or the new scheme of battles in DB right now) wants to focus the fighting in efficiency and efficiency parameters about how to use your abilities; no longer it will be a simple thing like to use pure power to surpass the opponent as it was before where the fighter with more energy and power by transformation or fusion or methods such as rituals wins, but to use your power with moderation and with strategy. The dialogue of the movie but in the manga version of SH is more explanatory and detailed about what Vegeta wants to do not only using Jiren as an example but to all the opponents who came after him as Gas, Frieza (in his form Black), Granola, Moro, even Broly to bring out your 100% of power in one moment to attack with zero drop in energy and in efficiency.
I guess this explains why Jiren doesnt have an awra like everyone else does, because Whis that the awra is actually energy thats leaking out from the body. So then what this means is that Jiren is able to keep all that energy inside his body without any of it leaking out and he can do this at will.
It’s not that’s he was was nerfed… because if you watch the fight vegeta had handled him alone at 1 point… then goku handled him alone at 1 point… then when they fought together they pushed him back…. Vegeta just didn’t have the power to continue… also when 17 got in is his head he was no longer focused even frieza was able to whoop on him..
I completely agree, but your analogy was bad with the video game auto combo. I think it's more accurate to say that using the less optimal auto combo is the default without any effort into actually improving the combo just your "level" or damage, then learning a combo and "bread and butter" or just practical combos which are practical is the next step and creating damage optimized combos which is the step Vegeta and Goku have been doing for a while now, and the step Jiren is on and Vegeta is trying to get to is using those optimized combos without thinking, and optimally every time without having to compromise. I believe ultra instinct is the flow state of doing this really. I believe ultra ego is more like the "Arousal state" which is often attributed with a lack of complete control but is great for improvement and perfecting a skill in this case fighting and battle. It isn't a perfect analogy regardless but I think the way I just put it might be a little bit closer. Anyways I think what you said was close enough and really understands the narrative of dragon ball, how chi works, and how chi control works pretty well and why both the ammount of ki you have and how you utilize it matters equally as much. Like how frieza on namek and hit during the universe 6 tournament, trunks in his super saiyan grade 3 form and cell when bulking up, and moro, don't use their 100% power often or cant contain the mass of chi they have so they had to increase mass in order to compensate and this game at a considerable downside everytime when overdone. People who use this same concept and its downsides but with a deeper understanding have been grade 2 Vegeta and Master roshi when he decides to increase mass to access his entire pool of chi in spite of having such an old body. This is the same way Piccolo says he *doesnt gain power when he grows large.* That's true for him now, because he has the control and body and understanding to use his maximum chi pool without increasing mass now due to his constant meditation and training which is explicitly what he chooses to focus on, and there's nothing wrong with that. *This was not the case during the last tournament of dragon ball.* Dragon ball despite what a lot of people say was *always* about strength but just as importantly about how that strength is *utilized.* and this has *never* changed. Dragon ball was *always* about this. There have always been cheap tricks and unique abilities used to win fights, the only thing people are mad about is the *accurate* representation that enough brute force just trumps abilities or techniques. I appreciate dragon ball for being honest about this in its story telling. Im actually gonna use this as a video script, you inspired me hahaha. Thanks!
As usual of those types fans in the fandom miss identifying what's actually going on here typical behavior not surprised like for example I remember when mystery meat dropped his animation that took him 4years ta make drop on TH-cam dbz legend...some people took it a pone themselves saying stuff like "this is what's missing in super this looks 100% better than what we actually officially got from Tori and Toei" and I'm left here scratching my head like what??? ok love the animation too but I'm not going that far guys there's already so much hidden meaning in dragon ball all ready which feels me with so much glee that I laugh at the idea when people say db is bad like no try again you don't really get it or understand much that's all that really is
I Kinda disagree I think he got nerfed jiren was all power and strength that was he was hyped for and that all he ever talked about was strength and wanted more beyond that but when vegeta said that jiren strength is not far from them that’s poor writing because jiren was far more stronger than goku and vegeta too actually catch blow with ssb kioken 20 goku and blue evolution vegeta is a strength feat not mental feat and also fighting 17 and friza
*FINALLY SOMEONE ELSE SAID IT* - Here are the notable examples I have found so far: *1. In the DBS anime (ep16), Whis explains to Vegeta the importance of energy control over raw power:* *[SUB]* "I see you've substantially increased your power through training. But no matter how long you try, you'll never beat Beerus sama that way. Learn to control your energy. If you can do that... *[DUB]* "You've achieved considerable power through what I assume is intense physical training, but if you continue focusing on power alone, you'll never defeat Lord Beerus. The most crucial skill you lack is a method for controlling your energy. If you can learn that... *2. Whis explains to the Oracle fish the importance of Ki as one's power (ep18).* *[SUB]* "They need to raise the level of their ki... otherwise, they won't be able to grow much stronger" This goes along with Whis' plan as to how he wants to train the Saiyans, which he hinted at before (referring to 1.^) *3. Chouzenshuu 1 states:* "Because there are physical limits to the strength of the body itself, it is necessary to increase one's ki to overcome this barrier and become stronger." *4. Spirit Control* Spirit Control is the same as Ki, as stated in Chapter 52: "What we call Spirit, Goku called Chi" One's Ki/Spirit is demonstrated as crucial for one's true power. Vegeta in _Super Hero,_ continues this training style after recognizing how significant it was when Jiren displayed it. "You must achieve balance in body and mind" (chapter 53). "Before your training here, your body and spirit were so off-balance that you couldn't project your own power very well" (chapter 55). *5. Goku during Kami/Popo's training* "Movement is waste! You must first train your Spirit" (Mr. Popo, Chapter 164). The 'filler' episodes in the anime insanely dive into details regarding this. *6. Android Saga Piccolo* After Gero absorbs some of Piccolo's power and adds it to his own, he gets thrashed and doesn't understand. The scenes shared as follows: "This is impossible!! I was more power to begin with--and now I've added his energy to mine...!!!" (Gero) "Remember this: in battle, we can amplify what you call energy in one tremendous burst. What you stole from me just now was nothing." (Piccolo, DB Manga Chapter 345) - This is primarily an example of Ki being used to amplify the user's power, as opposed to body empowerment. *7. King Kai's Teachings* "Wanna be the best in the Universe? Then you gotta train not just your body, but also your spirit" (King Kai, DBS Chapter 39) *Notable? Ressurection F Manga* "It's quite evidence to me that you are a prodigy in combat, yet you always seem to be lagging one step behind Goku... You are constantly straining your senses... In that state, when it comes down to business, you won't be able to function at full efficiency" (Whis, DBZ RF Manga Chapter 2) - It should be noted that while aspects from RF have been rebooted, a semblance of consideration can remain. However, in this case, it can be argued that Whis was referring to Vegeta achieving a sense of combative ability that would eventually be the foundation for UI rather than a poke against his use of Spirit.
@@cory6640 The validity of my sources cannot be the topic here... You're telling me you validated *all my sources* in the 27min's I had this posted (assuming you saw it the moment I dropped it... *CAP*
It's like going into a lucid dreaming state to reduce mental latency between actions, while also focusing your attacks to peak performance with perfectly executed mastered motion
Jiren was a lot better fighter and stronger aka dude literally depended on himself without having to use others powers. Goku = using others powers to level up Jiren = Rely on his own power, more respectable and better than Goku in my opinion
Jiren punched Goku out of unmastered ui mode, I don't get why Goku keeps getting these dumb level ups. He wasn't even close to jirens level in TOP until he got mui which is dumb lol dude fell into a spirit bomb then got vegeta's power then frieza gave him some power. Saved by the writers you can explain whatever but the writers will keep Goku leveling up in way that makes no sense lol
Yes , yes he was. In the beginning of the tournament we see Jiren is literally untouchable, even Goku with Kaioken didnt help at all then 30 min later we somehow see them standing up to him? Are people that stupid to believe these guys became at least 10 times stronger in a half an hour not counting UI and Vegeta's last blue form (royal blue etc). They messed up with Jiren and its not like it hasnt happened before but those jumps in power in one single hour is crazy. I guess any db content is good as long as it pushing it to fans.
Saiyans literally break their limits when pushed against a corner. Jiren didn't get weaker in the t.o.p. He was steadily releasing more power. And a saiyan breaking their limits doesn't just mean new forms, but getting stronger in base.
The problem is that there's a difference between full power and full potential. We have multiple statements of characters being at full power especially Goku and Vegeta in Perfected Blue where it's literally stated the form is Blue at 100% at all times yet now all of a sudden they haven't been at full power at all, how does that makes sense? The answer is that it doesn't and that's another inconsistent that Akira and Toyo is doing to once again introduce a plot point that's already been done. Goku mastered efficient movement in the original series as stated by Roshi when he fought Tien so why all of sudden he hasn't unless it was done as a nerf (intentionally or not). When Vegeta completed his Spirit control training it was stated he tapped into his nascent power which would translate to latent or hidden power. If they were really using that concept for Jiren then it would've been stated that through mediation he taps into more and more of his Potential instead of it simply being full power. All that is happening is that the characters are going in a circle and not truly going forward
nah that is not what is being stated at all. full power is still full power it's just using it in an efficient way to prevent the drain that using their power causes.
@@jordanthedragonlee1270 tapping into one's potential does become the new full power sure but that's not what's been even implied at all it's been stated that Goku and Vegeta haven't been using 100% at all while characters like Jiren and Frieza have. And the efficiency issue is again the other problem as Goku has already mastered it in the 23rd world tournament so there should be no way that Goku doesn't have it unless it's a different method all together which again hasn't been at the very least implied. He mastered efficient movement training with Popo and Kami, he mastered efficient ki use which was shown through the power burst thing on namek ( the same thing Jiren is stated to have done).
@@transcended_gogito2579 actually it has been implied though because what vegeta is doing is essentially the next level of what goku learned in the 23rd and what vegeta learned on yardrat. the power burst thing is similar but not the same. that is just going from zero to one hundred with your chi\power level what they are doing now is creating effective moves that are as effective and conservative as possible.
@@jordanthedragonlee1270 no it isn't remaining calm and focused is literally what Popo taught Goku and Goku even taught Gohan that by explaining to him that they have to get rid of the restless feeling of Ssj to make the most of it. And the power burst thing is literally stated in Super Hero " No doubt you remember Jiren's fearsome power. But, in terms of raw strength, wasn't far removed from you or me. The difference lies with how effectively he used that strength. Did you notice? Even when he was in the heat of battle, he was free of tension in both body and mind, remaining totally relaxed until the moment he attacked. An attack that starts from nothing is impossible for an opponent to predict and is immensely powerful. Allows you to conserve energy as well, right?" Both the novel and movie states it, the manga is the only one that states something else but again it's what Goku was taught to do by Popo
remaining calm until you attack is not the same thing as taking your chi from 0 to 100 bro. you are conflating a bunch of things together that have similarities and treating them like the same thing.@@transcended_gogito2579 all popo taught goku was how to calm his heart and mind and the basics of meditation. the type of meditation goku used with popo is a less advanced version of what vegeta is doing and very different. I cover that here. th-cam.com/video/FYp-fp5I0Qo/w-d-xo.htmlsi=i6zfLAJf_Bkmsauh
I think that misinterpretation towards Jiren is understandable in the fandom because it must be understood that the plot now (or the new scheme of battles in DB right now) wants to focus the fighting in efficiency and efficiency parameters about how to use your abilities; no longer it will be a simple thing like to use pure power to surpass the opponent as it was before where the fighter with more energy and power by transformation or fusion or methods such as rituals wins, but to use your power with moderation and with strategy. The dialogue of the movie but in the manga version of SH is more explanatory and detailed about what Vegeta wants to do not only using Jiren as an example but to all the opponents who came after him as Gas, Frieza (in his form Black), Granola, Moro, even Broly to bring out your 100% of power in one moment to attack with zero drop in energy and in efficiency.
I guess this explains why Jiren doesnt have an awra like everyone else does, because Whis that the awra is actually energy thats leaking out from the body. So then what this means is that Jiren is able to keep all that energy inside his body without any of it leaking out and he can do this at will.
It’s not that’s he was was nerfed… because if you watch the fight vegeta had handled him alone at 1 point… then goku handled him alone at 1 point… then when they fought together they pushed him back…. Vegeta just didn’t have the power to continue… also when 17 got in is his head he was no longer focused even frieza was able to whoop on him..
I love your content. Easily my favorite DB content creator.
I feel like Jiren should come back at some point, as a supporting character.
Especially since Black Freeza would be a threat to the whole multiverse.
I completely agree, but your analogy was bad with the video game auto combo. I think it's more accurate to say that using the less optimal auto combo is the default without any effort into actually improving the combo just your "level" or damage, then learning a combo and "bread and butter" or just practical combos which are practical is the next step and creating damage optimized combos which is the step Vegeta and Goku have been doing for a while now, and the step Jiren is on and Vegeta is trying to get to is using those optimized combos without thinking, and optimally every time without having to compromise. I believe ultra instinct is the flow state of doing this really. I believe ultra ego is more like the "Arousal state" which is often attributed with a lack of complete control but is great for improvement and perfecting a skill in this case fighting and battle. It isn't a perfect analogy regardless but I think the way I just put it might be a little bit closer.
Anyways I think what you said was close enough and really understands the narrative of dragon ball, how chi works, and how chi control works pretty well and why both the ammount of ki you have and how you utilize it matters equally as much. Like how frieza on namek and hit during the universe 6 tournament, trunks in his super saiyan grade 3 form and cell when bulking up, and moro, don't use their 100% power often or cant contain the mass of chi they have so they had to increase mass in order to compensate and this game at a considerable downside everytime when overdone. People who use this same concept and its downsides but with a deeper understanding have been grade 2 Vegeta and Master roshi when he decides to increase mass to access his entire pool of chi in spite of having such an old body. This is the same way Piccolo says he *doesnt gain power when he grows large.* That's true for him now, because he has the control and body and understanding to use his maximum chi pool without increasing mass now due to his constant meditation and training which is explicitly what he chooses to focus on, and there's nothing wrong with that. *This was not the case during the last tournament of dragon ball.*
Dragon ball despite what a lot of people say was *always* about strength but just as importantly about how that strength is *utilized.* and this has *never* changed. Dragon ball was *always* about this. There have always been cheap tricks and unique abilities used to win fights, the only thing people are mad about is the *accurate* representation that enough brute force just trumps abilities or techniques. I appreciate dragon ball for being honest about this in its story telling.
Im actually gonna use this as a video script, you inspired me hahaha. Thanks!
Don't mind me just a normal fan enjoying 😎 dragon ball content keep scrolling bros
As usual of those types fans in the fandom miss identifying what's actually going on here typical behavior not surprised like for example I remember when mystery meat dropped his animation that took him 4years ta make drop on TH-cam dbz legend...some people took it a pone themselves saying stuff like "this is what's missing in super this looks 100% better than what we actually officially got from Tori and Toei" and I'm left here scratching my head like what??? ok love the animation too but I'm not going that far guys there's already so much hidden meaning in dragon ball all ready which feels me with so much glee that I laugh at the idea when people say db is bad like no try again you don't really get it or understand much that's all that really is
I Kinda disagree I think he got nerfed jiren was all power and strength that was he was hyped for and that all he ever talked about was strength and wanted more beyond that but when vegeta said that jiren strength is not far from them that’s poor writing because jiren was far more stronger than goku and vegeta too actually catch blow with ssb kioken 20 goku and blue evolution vegeta is a strength feat not mental feat and also fighting 17 and friza
Great video!
*FINALLY SOMEONE ELSE SAID IT*
- Here are the notable examples I have found so far:
*1. In the DBS anime (ep16), Whis explains to Vegeta the importance of energy control over raw power:*
*[SUB]* "I see you've substantially increased your power through training. But no matter how long you try, you'll never beat Beerus sama that way. Learn to control your energy. If you can do that...
*[DUB]* "You've achieved considerable power through what I assume is intense physical training, but if you continue focusing on power alone, you'll never defeat Lord Beerus. The most crucial skill you lack is a method for controlling your energy. If you can learn that...
*2. Whis explains to the Oracle fish the importance of Ki as one's power (ep18).*
*[SUB]* "They need to raise the level of their ki... otherwise, they won't be able to grow much stronger"
This goes along with Whis' plan as to how he wants to train the Saiyans, which he hinted at before (referring to 1.^)
*3. Chouzenshuu 1 states:*
"Because there are physical limits to the strength of the body itself, it is necessary to increase one's ki to overcome this barrier and become stronger."
*4. Spirit Control*
Spirit Control is the same as Ki, as stated in Chapter 52:
"What we call Spirit, Goku called Chi"
One's Ki/Spirit is demonstrated as crucial for one's true power. Vegeta in _Super Hero,_ continues this training style after recognizing how significant it was when Jiren displayed it.
"You must achieve balance in body and mind" (chapter 53).
"Before your training here, your body and spirit were so off-balance that you couldn't project your own power very well" (chapter 55).
*5. Goku during Kami/Popo's training*
"Movement is waste! You must first train your Spirit" (Mr. Popo, Chapter 164).
The 'filler' episodes in the anime insanely dive into details regarding this.
*6. Android Saga Piccolo*
After Gero absorbs some of Piccolo's power and adds it to his own, he gets thrashed and doesn't understand. The scenes shared as follows:
"This is impossible!! I was more power to begin with--and now I've added his energy to mine...!!!" (Gero)
"Remember this: in battle, we can amplify what you call energy in one tremendous burst. What you stole from me just now was nothing." (Piccolo, DB Manga Chapter 345)
- This is primarily an example of Ki being used to amplify the user's power, as opposed to body empowerment.
*7. King Kai's Teachings*
"Wanna be the best in the Universe? Then you gotta train not just your body, but also your spirit" (King Kai, DBS Chapter 39)
*Notable? Ressurection F Manga*
"It's quite evidence to me that you are a prodigy in combat, yet you always seem to be lagging one step behind Goku... You are constantly straining your senses... In that state, when it comes down to business, you won't be able to function at full efficiency" (Whis, DBZ RF Manga Chapter 2)
- It should be noted that while aspects from RF have been rebooted, a semblance of consideration can remain. However, in this case, it can be argued that Whis was referring to Vegeta achieving a sense of combative ability that would eventually be the foundation for UI rather than a poke against his use of Spirit.
lmfao I literally checked all of these and most of them are being heavily mistranslated or are made up 💀💀💀🤣🤣🤣🤣
@@cory6640 The validity of my sources cannot be the topic here...
You're telling me you validated *all my sources* in the 27min's I had this posted (assuming you saw it the moment I dropped it...
*CAP*
@@bigpapan.g3245 believe what you want kid
Don't use Loei
@@batguy39 ?
I didn’t know what nerfed meant when I saw dragon ball super hero I had know idea love this video ❤❤❤
It's like going into a lucid dreaming state to reduce mental latency between actions, while also focusing your attacks to peak performance with perfectly executed mastered motion
So basically, Jiren was just a better fighter
no , he was allot more powerful
Jiren was a lot better fighter and stronger aka dude literally depended on himself without having to use others powers. Goku = using others powers to level up
Jiren = Rely on his own power, more respectable and better than Goku in my opinion
Jiren punched Goku out of unmastered ui mode, I don't get why Goku keeps getting these dumb level ups. He wasn't even close to jirens level in TOP until he got mui which is dumb lol dude fell into a spirit bomb then got vegeta's power then frieza gave him some power. Saved by the writers you can explain whatever but the writers will keep Goku leveling up in way that makes no sense lol
Thanks for the vid, really nice stuff.
I'm so glad they didn't nerf my boi
Yes , yes he was.
In the beginning of the tournament we see Jiren is literally untouchable, even Goku with Kaioken didnt help at all then 30 min later we somehow see them standing up to him?
Are people that stupid to believe these guys became at least 10 times stronger in a half an hour not counting UI and Vegeta's last blue form (royal blue etc).
They messed up with Jiren and its not like it hasnt happened before but those jumps in power in one single hour is crazy.
I guess any db content is good as long as it pushing it to fans.
Who left this 👶 here?
Saiyans literally break their limits when pushed against a corner. Jiren didn't get weaker in the t.o.p. He was steadily releasing more power. And a saiyan breaking their limits doesn't just mean new forms, but getting stronger in base.
The problem is that there's a difference between full power and full potential. We have multiple statements of characters being at full power especially Goku and Vegeta in Perfected Blue where it's literally stated the form is Blue at 100% at all times yet now all of a sudden they haven't been at full power at all, how does that makes sense? The answer is that it doesn't and that's another inconsistent that Akira and Toyo is doing to once again introduce a plot point that's already been done. Goku mastered efficient movement in the original series as stated by Roshi when he fought Tien so why all of sudden he hasn't unless it was done as a nerf (intentionally or not). When Vegeta completed his Spirit control training it was stated he tapped into his nascent power which would translate to latent or hidden power. If they were really using that concept for Jiren then it would've been stated that through mediation he taps into more and more of his Potential instead of it simply being full power. All that is happening is that the characters are going in a circle and not truly going forward
nah that is not what is being stated at all. full power is still full power it's just using it in an efficient way to prevent the drain that using their power causes.
@@jordanthedragonlee1270 tapping into one's potential does become the new full power sure but that's not what's been even implied at all it's been stated that Goku and Vegeta haven't been using 100% at all while characters like Jiren and Frieza have. And the efficiency issue is again the other problem as Goku has already mastered it in the 23rd world tournament so there should be no way that Goku doesn't have it unless it's a different method all together which again hasn't been at the very least implied. He mastered efficient movement training with Popo and Kami, he mastered efficient ki use which was shown through the power burst thing on namek ( the same thing Jiren is stated to have done).
@@transcended_gogito2579 actually it has been implied though because what vegeta is doing is essentially the next level of what goku learned in the 23rd and what vegeta learned on yardrat. the power burst thing is similar but not the same. that is just going from zero to one hundred with your chi\power level what they are doing now is creating effective moves that are as effective and conservative as possible.
@@jordanthedragonlee1270 no it isn't remaining calm and focused is literally what Popo taught Goku and Goku even taught Gohan that by explaining to him that they have to get rid of the restless feeling of Ssj to make the most of it. And the power burst thing is literally stated in Super Hero " No doubt you remember Jiren's fearsome power. But, in terms of raw strength, wasn't far removed from you or me. The difference lies with how effectively he used that strength. Did you notice? Even when he was in the heat of battle, he was free of tension in both body and mind, remaining totally relaxed until the moment he attacked. An attack that starts from nothing is impossible for an opponent to predict and is immensely powerful. Allows you to conserve energy as well, right?" Both the novel and movie states it, the manga is the only one that states something else but again it's what Goku was taught to do by Popo
remaining calm until you attack is not the same thing as taking your chi from 0 to 100 bro. you are conflating a bunch of things together that have similarities and treating them like the same thing.@@transcended_gogito2579 all popo taught goku was how to calm his heart and mind and the basics of meditation. the type of meditation goku used with popo is a less advanced version of what vegeta is doing and very different. I cover that here. th-cam.com/video/FYp-fp5I0Qo/w-d-xo.htmlsi=i6zfLAJf_Bkmsauh
Eh Goku's just written to be greater and broken no offense but fuhk goku lol dudes the worst character written in anime history