I no longer own a Tormac but a 770 was my first machine and I loved it. See this new generation of Tormachs makes me really happy. This machine kicks ass.
Yeah, there were a few mistakes in the programming 🤣. And we may have gotten a little lazy in running it. We were tired. Probably shouldn't have held it in hard jaws for op 2 either. But even with all that, it still looked pretty awesome. With some iteration, it could have been flawless
We make a lot of similar sized parts. I have a Haas DM-2, a Prototrak DPM mill, and a Hardinge not so Super Precision anymore lathe. The only thing the Haas has over the Prototrak is a tool changer and faster spindle. I find the Prototrak to be my go to machine if I need to absolutely hit a dimension the first time, say on a modification to an existing part. Being able to get right up on something and put a microscope or loupe on it. It’s not exactly a Bridgeport, since it has cnc controls, but if I had to lose one machine for the work I do I’d want it to be the Haas.
Not sure about that mark on the contour, but I've found that it's much better to make lead in/out on a curved part. I'm amazed how an entry and exit on the flat parts is so visible, but the same thing on a curved surface and it just disappears. And yes, I definitely do shallower, usally 15-20 degrees if I have to contour a straight edge. I'm fine with 30-45 leading in on a curve. Nice video series. My 1500mx was delivered yesterday, so hopefully I'll get it running next week.
Unfortunately this is all of the machining footage I have with the machine, but I do have a video or two about integrating it with automation on the way.
That vertical line at 24:17 is something up with fusion. shows up all the time and overlap never gets rids of it.. Its almost like a precision error with some calculation where the cutter pushes into the part on entry where it should be coming in on the tangent. I've see it all the time and others mention it as well.. I cant get rid of it and it drives me nuts.
So if it says, "no you can't make it faster on a bridgeport", that sounds like a challenge. So can we get the drawing and the total setup + cycle time so we can crush it on a bridgeport? Asking for a friend...
@@AudacityMicro I'm sure someone's got a Bridgeport XR1000 or such that can make it faster! Whether any of them watch this channel and decide to waste time on a $160,000 CNC mill for shits & giggles is a whole other question, but Bridgeport Machine Tools is still around, they just make CNC mills now, so technically it'd count.
Not sure about your title I would bet on the Bridgeport. Especially since they come with a 10-15k spindle. Their vmcs are pretty fast and have more hp.
It may not be the same everywhere, but every shop I have worked at the manual mill guys always say they can do it faster, and they can... But they always cut a bunch of corners and do some things I would call stupid, like holding parts down with their hands instead of putting them in a vise while drilling/ reaming. They determine on their own what parts of the print actually matter and need to be done properly instead of making it to print. "30 thou oversized in the hole diameter doesn't matter, it's a tapered thread anyways"... They are always old and angry that they don't get paid as much as the cnc guys who run 3 machines at a time. That's just my experience though.
The outside was about .002" large, and the pockets were about.002" undersized. But we didn't use any wear comp, so that's about what I would expect. The height was about .010" under sized, but out of laziness we set the WCS based on the raw stock for op2.
@@AudacityMicro it would be great to see the accuracy the 1500 can get, just to make a fair comparison with other machines it goes against, like the X7. Good job on the video AJ
Never played with an X7, but I think the tormach would be just as accurate. It can't remove material as fast, but the kinematic systems are just as good. At some point you hit a limit without adding more technology. Pretty much all of these drill taps are the same, to improve you would need some sort of thermal management/comp, good tool diameter measurement, or overkill castings. You can hit tenths if you take the time to dial in a cut, but you won't do it on the first try, with a non-comped tool. And you'll probably see one or two thou in thermal growth over time. All these machines will be really similar in that regard.
So My takeaway on this video. I really need to learn more about setting up my part in Fusion. And the 1500 will be my next machine I believe. (my 1100m S3 is ok for now but I would like the ATC etc)
I will not be buying a 1500 MX. The next machine I buy will be five axis. If tormach wanted to let me borrow one for 6 months or a year until I can afford a five-axis, I would most certainly use it a ton
@@AudacityMicro I think a CNC lathe would be a better machine for you, it would allow much broader parts to be machined. A 5 axis is certainly not required yet
I don't see many lathe parts come by, mostly mill work. I turn down a ton of work that would be better suited for a 5 axis. Yes I *could* do it on a three axis, but I'm not going to take a job with 18 different setups.
@@AudacityMicro imo, having a 5 axis these days is basically mandatory because you can do the same part so much faster and with 2 setups instead of maybe up to 6
@@AudacityMicro If that's the case with lathe work then sure. But I would certainly think hard before committing to 5 axis jobs. The CAM software alone is expensive and the setup takes much longer than 3 axis. Currently own a 3 and a 4 axis CNC and and 2 axis CNC lathe. I use the lathe in combination with the mills which has greatly reduced the need for 5 axis machine for now. Would also be interested into getting into 5 axis machining in lean manufacturing and wondering is it worth it for me.
7:19 Roeders machines are not bolted down because they figured out that then the machine makes more accurate parts. and they have stupid amount of acceleration/deceleration.
I have only ever seen indications that bolting down the machine makes them better. I've never seen a machine get worse. But I also don't have a huge amount of experience in that regard
It actually doesn't. I didn't include context here, but I have a Haas office mill. It has a 40K RPM ISO 20 spindle which is fantastic for small tools, but doesn't have much power or rigidity behind it. So the 1500 has more power than MY Haas, but not the majority of them. This thing is clearly not designed to compete with a VF2 or whatever.
I've gotta say, I just checked out the price of this and I think you're going down completely the wrong route. 60k for one of these is insane, I just bought a 10 year old Doosan DNM for the same price.
I think you are missing the larger picture. Yes, any used doosan would be a lot higher performance than this machine. But this machine can go in someone's garage, and run single phase, and be delivered on a lift gate. A "$60K" doosan needs $3000 in rigging every time you move it, plus now you are going to need to rent a shop, which will add $1200 per month if you are lucky. It may or may not need a phase converter, which would be another $3000. It'll need some sort of repair being a 10 year old machine, and DN probably won't let you do that on your own, so that's another $5K. Suddenly after a single year, your "$60K" doosan is $100K. Don't get me wrong, the tormach is not a better machine. It's small and underpowered, especially compared to a big cat40 machine. But it's not supposed to compete with one. Comparing them is like telling someone they are an idiot for buying a Toyota Corolla when they could have bought a used John Deere for the same price.
@@AudacityMicro For sure, completely agree. I was kinda using as proof that you could pick up a robodrill or a speedio, which I assume would fit in your shop? Rigging really, genuinely, isn't that bit a deal. Anyone with a hiab is going to be able to move this easily, all you need are some skates. I understand it seems like a bit deal, but anything under 5 tones can be done by one person perfectly safely.
Yeah 100% agree. I'm not at tormach because I'm shopping for a machine. And I will probably buy something used. I really like tormach as a company, and I think they are really helping the industry as a whole by getting people excited about manufacturing. There is no one I would rather hire than some machinist that got started at 16, when they bought a used 440 and stuck it in their parents garage. Give me that over a "classically trained" machinist or engineer any day. Those people just don't exist unless there are cheap machines for them to buy. One day these 1500mxs will be 10 years old, and people will be buying them used for like $25K. I think that's a major win for the US economy.
Nope! I know I haven't posted the videos yet, but I mentioned that I wanted to play with their robot, and learn about automation. Their CEO reached out and told me that he would take a day to teach me if I came up. (It's a small company, and the CEO is very technical) The 1500MX stuff was just a bonus that I figured would get views on TH-cam (gotta pay for the trip somehow 😅). The videos about the robot are still on the way. They are a little bit more disjointed than the machine videos, so they are taking me longer to edit.
"im not doing that on my haas". that made me chuckle, sounds like youve got some application issues if you cant do or exceed that on your haas. (no im not a haas shill i actually hate them but my shop runs basically nothing but haas so here we are). looks like 6061 to me. at .080" axial and 100% radial id push around 240 ipm @ 9k on a vf2. or about 180ipm @ 9k on a 2". it really comes down to workholding and insert choice, cutter weight. its not really fair to you rmachine to say i wouldnt do that on this unless youre talking major differences, like comparing an ec400 to a heller etc. i will say the perimeter cut you did is probably better than what alot of ashops are still doing these days. personally on a 3fl 1/2" rougher 1.25 LOC at those kind of parameters we will usually max at 1" axial on a .050 radial but we will typically be pushing around 225ipm @ 11k
I wasn't bagging on Haas. You just are missing context. I have a 2005 Haas office mill. It's got 40K RPM, and an iso20 spindle. It's wonderfully accurate, and great for small tools, but face mills are not it's friend. I get my highest mrr with a 3/16" tool. I am aware that even a TM1 would have a higher mrr than the tormach.
I no longer own a Tormac but a 770 was my first machine and I loved it. See this new generation of Tormachs makes me really happy. This machine kicks ass.
Great video!! Eventhough the part was wrong it was definitely beautiful. They stepped up big time with this machine.!!
Yeah, there were a few mistakes in the programming 🤣. And we may have gotten a little lazy in running it. We were tired. Probably shouldn't have held it in hard jaws for op 2 either. But even with all that, it still looked pretty awesome. With some iteration, it could have been flawless
We make a lot of similar sized parts. I have a Haas DM-2, a Prototrak DPM mill, and a Hardinge not so Super Precision anymore lathe. The only thing the Haas has over the Prototrak is a tool changer and faster spindle. I find the Prototrak to be my go to machine if I need to absolutely hit a dimension the first time, say on a modification to an existing part. Being able to get right up on something and put a microscope or loupe on it. It’s not exactly a Bridgeport, since it has cnc controls, but if I had to lose one machine for the work I do I’d want it to be the Haas.
Not sure about that mark on the contour, but I've found that it's much better to make lead in/out on a curved part. I'm amazed how an entry and exit on the flat parts is so visible, but the same thing on a curved surface and it just disappears. And yes, I definitely do shallower, usally 15-20 degrees if I have to contour a straight edge. I'm fine with 30-45 leading in on a curve. Nice video series. My 1500mx was delivered yesterday, so hopefully I'll get it running next week.
It had a really tiny lead-in and lead out, like .025". I think it caused some weird issues. and nice! I can't wait to hear how it does for you.
Congrats. Please post some videos if you can. I'm still on the fence about one. A lot of people are waiting to see these things in the wild.
Unfortunately this is all of the machining footage I have with the machine, but I do have a video or two about integrating it with automation on the way.
Oh, you were talking to Bill 😅
@@AudacityMicro I ment to tag bill, my bad 🤣
That vertical line at 24:17 is something up with fusion. shows up all the time and overlap never gets rids of it.. Its almost like a precision error with some calculation where the cutter pushes into the part on entry where it should be coming in on the tangent. I've see it all the time and others mention it as well.. I cant get rid of it and it drives me nuts.
I noticed that the door seems to be considerably narrower than the 1100mx, did that seem to be an issue working on it?
It didn't feel restrictive. The whole enclosure is a little more compact, and there's really good access through the side panels.
So if it says, "no you can't make it faster on a bridgeport", that sounds like a challenge. So can we get the drawing and the total setup + cycle time so we can crush it on a bridgeport? Asking for a friend...
Seems fair to me! Give me a bit
@@AudacityMicro I'm sure someone's got a Bridgeport XR1000 or such that can make it faster! Whether any of them watch this channel and decide to waste time on a $160,000 CNC mill for shits & giggles is a whole other question, but Bridgeport Machine Tools is still around, they just make CNC mills now, so technically it'd count.
@@AudacityMicro i run a XR1000 at work sounds like a good challenge on off hours
Not sure about your title I would bet on the Bridgeport. Especially since they come with a 10-15k spindle. Their vmcs are pretty fast and have more hp.
Faster than a "kneemill" didn't have the same ring to it. Everyone knows what I mean 😂
It may not be the same everywhere, but every shop I have worked at the manual mill guys always say they can do it faster, and they can... But they always cut a bunch of corners and do some things I would call stupid, like holding parts down with their hands instead of putting them in a vise while drilling/ reaming. They determine on their own what parts of the print actually matter and need to be done properly instead of making it to print. "30 thou oversized in the hole diameter doesn't matter, it's a tapered thread anyways"... They are always old and angry that they don't get paid as much as the cnc guys who run 3 machines at a time. That's just my experience though.
That was awesome! How did the dimensions turn out? Ciao, Marco.
The outside was about .002" large, and the pockets were about.002" undersized. But we didn't use any wear comp, so that's about what I would expect. The height was about .010" under sized, but out of laziness we set the WCS based on the raw stock for op2.
@@AudacityMicro it would be great to see the accuracy the 1500 can get, just to make a fair comparison with other machines it goes against, like the X7. Good job on the video AJ
Never played with an X7, but I think the tormach would be just as accurate. It can't remove material as fast, but the kinematic systems are just as good.
At some point you hit a limit without adding more technology. Pretty much all of these drill taps are the same, to improve you would need some sort of thermal management/comp, good tool diameter measurement, or overkill castings.
You can hit tenths if you take the time to dial in a cut, but you won't do it on the first try, with a non-comped tool. And you'll probably see one or two thou in thermal growth over time. All these machines will be really similar in that regard.
So My takeaway on this video. I really need to learn more about setting up my part in Fusion. And the 1500 will be my next machine I believe. (my 1100m S3 is ok for now but I would like the ATC etc)
3:50 assuming the face mill has 4 inserts…your haas does not have 3.5 horsepower?
I don't remember the exact number, but I have 40K RPM and tiny iso20 holders. It doesn't do face mills
so are you going to buy a 1500mx? if so, with tsc/chip conveyor or not?
I will not be buying a 1500 MX. The next machine I buy will be five axis. If tormach wanted to let me borrow one for 6 months or a year until I can afford a five-axis, I would most certainly use it a ton
@@AudacityMicro I think a CNC lathe would be a better machine for you, it would allow much broader parts to be machined. A 5 axis is certainly not required yet
I don't see many lathe parts come by, mostly mill work. I turn down a ton of work that would be better suited for a 5 axis. Yes I *could* do it on a three axis, but I'm not going to take a job with 18 different setups.
@@AudacityMicro imo, having a 5 axis these days is basically mandatory because you can do the same part so much faster and with 2 setups instead of maybe up to 6
@@AudacityMicro If that's the case with lathe work then sure. But I would certainly think hard before committing to 5 axis jobs. The CAM software alone is expensive and the setup takes much longer than 3 axis. Currently own a 3 and a 4 axis CNC and and 2 axis CNC lathe. I use the lathe in combination with the mills which has greatly reduced the need for 5 axis machine for now. Would also be interested into getting into 5 axis machining in lean manufacturing and wondering is it worth it for me.
7:19 Roeders machines are not bolted down because they figured out that then the machine makes more accurate parts. and they have stupid amount of acceleration/deceleration.
I have only ever seen indications that bolting down the machine makes them better. I've never seen a machine get worse. But I also don't have a huge amount of experience in that regard
3:55 “ not doing that on my Haas” I would be surprised that you couldn’t do that on your Haas. That Haas should have more power than the Tormach.
It actually doesn't. I didn't include context here, but I have a Haas office mill. It has a 40K RPM ISO 20 spindle which is fantastic for small tools, but doesn't have much power or rigidity behind it. So the 1500 has more power than MY Haas, but not the majority of them. This thing is clearly not designed to compete with a VF2 or whatever.
@ my apology , for some reason I thought you had a mini mill
@kevndo lots of people make that mistake 😅. The office mill is a weird breed of machine. Not a lot of them running around
@ I haven’t seen one in person yet.
I've gotta say, I just checked out the price of this and I think you're going down completely the wrong route. 60k for one of these is insane, I just bought a 10 year old Doosan DNM for the same price.
I think you are missing the larger picture. Yes, any used doosan would be a lot higher performance than this machine. But this machine can go in someone's garage, and run single phase, and be delivered on a lift gate. A "$60K" doosan needs $3000 in rigging every time you move it, plus now you are going to need to rent a shop, which will add $1200 per month if you are lucky. It may or may not need a phase converter, which would be another $3000. It'll need some sort of repair being a 10 year old machine, and DN probably won't let you do that on your own, so that's another $5K. Suddenly after a single year, your "$60K" doosan is $100K.
Don't get me wrong, the tormach is not a better machine. It's small and underpowered, especially compared to a big cat40 machine. But it's not supposed to compete with one.
Comparing them is like telling someone they are an idiot for buying a Toyota Corolla when they could have bought a used John Deere for the same price.
@@AudacityMicro For sure, completely agree. I was kinda using as proof that you could pick up a robodrill or a speedio, which I assume would fit in your shop? Rigging really, genuinely, isn't that bit a deal.
Anyone with a hiab is going to be able to move this easily, all you need are some skates. I understand it seems like a bit deal, but anything under 5 tones can be done by one person perfectly safely.
Yeah 100% agree. I'm not at tormach because I'm shopping for a machine. And I will probably buy something used.
I really like tormach as a company, and I think they are really helping the industry as a whole by getting people excited about manufacturing. There is no one I would rather hire than some machinist that got started at 16, when they bought a used 440 and stuck it in their parents garage. Give me that over a "classically trained" machinist or engineer any day. Those people just don't exist unless there are cheap machines for them to buy. One day these 1500mxs will be 10 years old, and people will be buying them used for like $25K. I think that's a major win for the US economy.
@@AudacityMicro Sorry, my bad. I assumed this was all tied into you purchasing one, and this was basically you recording their sales pitch to you.
Nope! I know I haven't posted the videos yet, but I mentioned that I wanted to play with their robot, and learn about automation. Their CEO reached out and told me that he would take a day to teach me if I came up. (It's a small company, and the CEO is very technical) The 1500MX stuff was just a bonus that I figured would get views on TH-cam (gotta pay for the trip somehow 😅).
The videos about the robot are still on the way. They are a little bit more disjointed than the machine videos, so they are taking me longer to edit.
"im not doing that on my haas". that made me chuckle, sounds like youve got some application issues if you cant do or exceed that on your haas. (no im not a haas shill i actually hate them but my shop runs basically nothing but haas so here we are). looks like 6061 to me. at .080" axial and 100% radial id push around 240 ipm @ 9k on a vf2. or about 180ipm @ 9k on a 2". it really comes down to workholding and insert choice, cutter weight. its not really fair to you rmachine to say i wouldnt do that on this unless youre talking major differences, like comparing an ec400 to a heller etc. i will say the perimeter cut you did is probably better than what alot of ashops are still doing these days. personally on a 3fl 1/2" rougher 1.25 LOC at those kind of parameters we will usually max at 1" axial on a .050 radial but we will typically be pushing around 225ipm @ 11k
I wasn't bagging on Haas. You just are missing context. I have a 2005 Haas office mill. It's got 40K RPM, and an iso20 spindle. It's wonderfully accurate, and great for small tools, but face mills are not it's friend. I get my highest mrr with a 3/16" tool. I am aware that even a TM1 would have a higher mrr than the tormach.
That thumbnail is some kinda audacity
I mean, not really at this point....
I cant understand why people buy these tormachs lmao
Not everyone is the Target customer, and that's okay 🤷♂️
@@AudacityMicro seems the target customer is suckers who can't tell a good machine from a bad one.
What did you buy?
Picked up a nice Doosan dnm for 40k. Got a bridgeport in the corner for jobs it can't do
@@AudacityMicroi hope for your sake you don't have your own money into these machines, you got hosed
There was barely any machining actually being shown. It was just walking around the machine half the time and bad views of what's going on.
I have a different video that's just machining. No walking or talking