We Need To Talk About ZERO Motorcycles...
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 30 มิ.ย. 2022
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have a good day dont kill yourself
I'm guessing if an owner pays to unlock all the bells & whistles then sells the bike 2 yrs later. Once Zero finds out it's been sold, they deactivate all the features & tell the new owner they need to pay to have them all reinstalled. Later on I wouldn't be surprised if the bike gets a "virus" & you then need to buy/download anti virus from Zero to fix the problem.
Yammie im looking for a decent and affordable electric motorcycle. There are cheaper options and more variety coming out of asia now do you have any insight you could give me?
Car manufactures are doing same for heated seats
@@JustFuN-tr8yi My friend had one (Zero). While riding city traffic 35mph, the bike suddenly accelerated full throttle. He's been in hospital for weeks. Zero denies it's a bike problem. Reading the memory of the bike; it went from 30% to 100%, to 0% and up to 100%, four times in 1 second and then stayed at 100%. But it's not a bike problem. They say HE must have somehow turned the throttle from 0-100% 4 times in a second!!!
You know what all of these electric bikes are missing? A CLUTCH! If the bike goes haywire, you can do totally NOTHING! In a E-car you can at least hit the brakes. Try that on a bike that's accelerating 100%. They need to start putting some mechanical release (like a clutch) in the drive line for emergencies. What happens if something gets stuck/breaks and your rear wheel blocks? You also need to be able to release the wheel somehow. QUICK!
*Checks to see if EA has partnered with Zero*
LOL. Or Wargaming.
Literally @ EA charging 160$ for a fucking heirloom on apex
Underrated Comment
Or Activision.
Nah then you would need to buy lootboxes in an attemp to win the unlock you want
Imagine saving up, paying to unlock a feature years later, and finding that the feature is broken and you're out of warranty.
Hack it I say use a computer to unlock all the features
Oh it looks like the hack you used was crappy and caused the battery to discharge to the point of starting on fire...
@@stubbingtonmarigold3032 if hacked or modded correctly you shouldn't have a issue or buy a motorcycle that's not pay walled
What a nightmare!
@@gulfcitynd I say don't give any of your hard earned money to any company that pulls this kind of crap and buy a better bike for half the price or less.
I feel like this is a close cousin to the "right to repair" objections that have made John Deere become quite a nasty headache for owners.
Saw that news report! Exactly. Good comment.
As I understand it, Zero are equally nasty when it comes to out-of-dealership repairs too. Sensors, motors etc need to have serial numbers added to ECU using closed proprietary software before it'll work correctly
Yeah let em do it. They'll ruin themselves out of business and ANOTHER company will rise up. These folks been in business for a long time like John Deere etc. The right to repair issue blew me away. Can't fix ur own stuff without a certified tech coming out so they can charge u for a faulty part. Jesus...we're going down and it's like they're gouging and taking any and everything they can
I agree, and Zero also does not provide a way for owners to decode the data and events coming from the ECU or the BMS. In fact they go out of their way to encrypt that data. This means that if you dispute Zero’s interpretation of your bike’s status or history, they control whether you even get the data for an independent evaluation.
Also, service technicians cannot even look at bike data or perform diagnostics without a live connection to Zero’s servers, which Zero can revoke if the service department’s dealership stops selling Zeros.
I'm late to the party but IIRC Louis rossman did a little right to repair segment on zero bikes a couple years ago. He's also pissed at the software unlock strategy
I was considering a zero but this completely changed my mind. Great info. Thanks for this.
Damon hyper sport
@@whocares6299 its not tht easy
I have a zero s but a 2020 model it’s brilliant u get a good spec for a good price.
As a former owner of a Zero SR/F, I was one of those who brought into the eco idea and went electric as an early adopter. The bike performed well (in the city, useless for longer distance due to poor range). It cost next to nothing to run though cost a small fortune to buy. At the time there was none of this pay to unlock features nonsense. I can easily see the bike getting bricked though, as the software and patching was very unreliable during my time of ownership.
My bigger issues with Zero are the build quality, reliability, and customer service. I had my SR/F for about 2 years (2019-21). During that time I had two major warranty claims resulting in the bike being out of action for 6 months (25% of its life)! The first issue was due to water getting into the electrics (bike was poorly manufactured and the relevant components were not properly sealed). This meant a new "spider bus" was needed (rewiring the bike I presume). The second issue about 12 months later was related to lots of electrical errors (lights failing etc.). After investigation I was told the main vehicle battery was faulty and needed to be replaced. That was the nail in the coffin, so I got the bike repaired and sold it as quickly as possible. These warranty issues didn't cost me anything except for significant amounts of time, stress, and a big hit in depreciation.
Funnily enough, I replaced the Zero with a Triumph Tiger Sport 660. A bike with a relatively low starting price, where you can add physical tangible options (i.e. heated grips, quickshifter, luggage) to spec it up as desired instead of paying to download patches to unlock features which should already be there.
Another supposed positive of electric is the lower maintenance cost. There's no oil, filter, spark plugs, etc. However, a serious drawback for Zero is that the service interval is just 6 months or 4k miles - about half that of most petrol bikes. Ironically, as my dealer was too far for the range of the bike, they had to send out a (diesel) mobile servicing van each time.
In my 12 years of biking and 8 motorcycle purchases they have been by far the worst customer service experience I've had to endure. Utterly unhelpful.
tldr: Stay well clear of Zero.
Good to know !
wow did not expect that for sure
Thanks for the information. I would never buy any vehicle that I had to pay to unlock something that was already installed, but the info on their customer service is good to know.
Thanks for that info,
I was considering buying a second hand one because I can't justify spending so much on a new one.
I will stay away.
I have converted a few posh bikes to electric and only cost me around £300 to do it, I love the simplicity and quiete of electric power but wanted to get back to motor bikes after a 13 year break , I think an electric one would be great but not a zero lol.
I got to ask, what exactly are they servicing? That service interval is seriously short.
Greed is repulsive, and "in game purchases" are a very good example of corporate greed in full bloom. This equipment is already installed and charging for is after the fact is
criminal. NEVER for me,.......ZERO chance.
All we need to do is not support this behavior and vote with our wallets.
I understand it for in game purchases where the game itself is free. It's a way to monetise that's useful for game developers. Zero however isn't giving away its bikes and monetising later. It's charging a lot up front and using add on charges to try to hide the fact that it's an incredibly expensive motorcycle. They try to keep the sticker price within reason then slug buyers quite a bit extra afterwards. It's not something I'd put up with on a motorcycle.
All the Zeros options are in loot crates, lmao.
until the entire industry latches onto the concept and we won't have a choice.
@@hillkillr There's always hackers. I would rather pay them than any manufacturer using such a dodgy practice.
Thanks for calling them out guys. These practices are getting more common and yes it is a dystopia for anyone who enjoys the freedom of "owning" and modding your vehicle.
First video on my search for an electric motorcycle, instant subscription. Thank you for your honesty and integrity. Much appreciated!!!
Seams the second a company adds saving the world to their business model they're about to engage in morally sketchy and exploitative practices.
Government as well
Zero is ruined they'd have done better sticking with the he electric dual sport that's not bigger down by paywalls
Zero fks given
Zero morals....
Ya and especially every company that doesn't want to save the world as well.
The worst part is, that you are already PAYING for these features when you buy the bike hardware wise. The company associates the cost of, lets say the heated grips into the cost of the bike when it's sold because they can't lose that money if you never decide to pay for the feature. So you are pretty much paying for heated grips hardware, then they want you to buy the ability to use them after the cost of hardware was already associated with the bike on the purchase.. Has to be the scummiest sales tactic I've ever seen. Pretty much bought it 2 times.
When I bought my Harley it was advertised to have heated grips. Found out that you have to pay 100$ to have them activate them with software. I was not happy
@@nicholasgeorge7192 Wow, reading this surprised me! I would have sworn/bet it (on a harley) would have required an actual install. To find out something is already "there" but requires "permission" to use is effing weird!
The paterilization of these corporations is insulting and counter to the whole "FREEDOM!" concept....(smh on a harley of all things...crazy).
IDK what the price of the hardware is but I'd assume its pretty small compared to what it costs to unlock the feature. They could still sell the bike for $22k (or whatever it is) and still charge you ~$195 for the grips and just go through the theatrics of replacing the hardware. It might even be cheaper to have a single production line and have them all come with the heated grips. The fact that they sell you features for which the hardware you already have is really not that different from the "traditional" model of selling the hardware itself, just stings to be reminded that you're not paying the cost of the product + a reasonable margin, but rather you're paying whatever they can charge to make the biggest profits.
The real issue is the ability to artificially lock you out of something you own at any time and for virtually any reason.Its not the cost and its not that they can enable features to improve your bike on a whim, its more an issue that they can disable them. Also what happens if zero goes out of business or the servers get taken down?
Additionally, though not directly related, but they can also lock other things on the bike like make aftermarket parts not work or blocking 3rd party repair.
@@thenachotech true
Yeah you totally right !
Never buy an electric bike that requires any sort of subscriptions, apps, or internet connectivity.
What you need to do with this bike is strip out the ECU, disconnect everything, re-wire it sll yourself with off/on switches, and then replace the ECU with an aftermarket model rated for the voltage and amps for that motor. I would also recommend installing a secondary 12v battery to run the aux while the bike is off.
Well this video saved me from buying a Zero Bike. What about the Livewire? I wanna go electric for my work commute.
I would be more okay with this if manufacturers didn't try and sue anyone who hacked the vehicle and sold their hack to other owners (*cough tesla). That's like a manufacturer sueing a company for selling slip on exhaust or high flow air filter
not really. The hacker doesn't develop the product. he just unlocks a feature already built in.
The reason why manufacturers do this is production cost. it reduces variation and makes production simpler, faster (cheaper). Especially a small manufacturer like zero has to reduce cost everywhere.
If you allow companies to monetize everything you'll eventually find yourself paying a monthly subscription for your seat belt to work.
All behavior similar to this should be heavily discouraged because all it does it bottleneck innovation
But at the price that you pay for these bikes it's unacceptable.
Exactly. If I own the bike, like completely paid off and MY MOTORCYCLE.... I'm doing whatever I want with it. Its stupid that I would even HAVE to hack it to unlock everything. "you aint sueing me for my property."
@@user-jt6nw6wm5q reduced cost? you did hear that if you unlock everything, its 27k. that my friend is not (cheaper).
The worst bit is the 20% of battery that's software locked, not just a chunk of battery you can't use, but a large piece of deadweight that you're carrying around.
Protects the battery from idiots who ride it to zero percent and not charge it. Killing the battery.
General rule is never take lithium under 15% SOC
@@jaybomb5022 it's not locked to protect the battery, it is all within the safe usage range. It's locked to get money out of you in order to be allowed to use it.
@@jaybomb5022 no most lithium will cut out at about 10-12% and not let you go to zero
Former Zero DS owner. It was my first bike, but I don't know that I'd get another electric bike anytime soon. The DS was fun, but range was poor, the headlights were terrible, I had a major electrical problem(thankfully) right before year two and I thought it was very expensive for what you got. I got a Yamaha bike for less than half the cost, no repairs needed in three years, has a nice stock headlight, still gets 70+mpg, etc.. much better value. Also, if your riding a relatively quiet gas bike, wind overpowers the exhaust sound at speed, so I don't know the zero being quiet is that big of a deal. Zero is dirt cheap to operate, but with my other bike 70+ mpg works for me. The price would have to really come down for me to consider another one and this business model sucks.
Literally why?
Great, quality and practical review. The end roll got my sub!😂
I love that the greed of EA has taught other companies to be worse
Software as a service, something Elon musk introduced to the automotive world is not EA's to take credit for. EA simply jumped on a bandwagon that was started by someone else. It's a shit concept but not much else you can do about it other than don't buy it or sue them into removing it.
Corporations are being made to implement the subscription model across the board, "you'll own nothing and be happy..."
Thank you for making this video. It is important that we as the riding community condemn the microtransaction bullshit. Motorcycles are one of the last strongholds of regular people DIYing major reparis and modding the stuff you own. It is important to protect that, especially because this is in no way limited to electric bikes. This kind of thing could happen with any motorcycle, it just happened to be an electric one to do it first.
We recently started toying with the idea of carrying Energica bikes at the dealership where I work. They sent us a demo EsseEsse9 RS to play around with and I must say I'm impressed. Pricey with a lot of upgrades available as build options but they are really nicely built. We'll be getting their other 2 available models which are sport bikes and I'm eagerly waiting to get those because they come with a drastic power increase over the model we have.
I was just talking about this the other day thank you for summing it up in such a entertaining way and informative way!
Two points to add.
1. When these bikes hit the secondhand market, will these additional functions be *'de-activated'* and then the new owner required to pay for the features to be *'re-activated?'*
2. BMW has already started to incorporate this *'feature activation'* marketing model with some of its ICE cars.
Same question on Tesla cars BTW
BMW has done this forever. Unlock a new gear after paying and doing some kind of test.
I'd wager the unlockable features are tied to a person's account per matching serial number. so if you sell your motorcycle, the new rider would have to buy the features again and I'd be surprised the features the original owner bought are transferrable within the zero ecosystem. I can't confirm if that really works that way but if I were a business man that's how I would do to maximize profit!
@@Djou-Karl that's not how it's done though, typically. It's usually tied to the vehicle. It being tied to the accout wouldn't make sense because then the person who sold the bike would have completely lost their investment. That's how it is with Tesla's full self driving.
@@iROMine ive seen multiple cases where the full self driving was deactivated when the owner sold it on a tesla one guy was really mad because he paid more because it had self driving and they deactivated it when he got it
This practise should be ILLEGAL! Thank you for making the video. These companies need to be named and shamed. Only the consumers have the power to stop it 👍
Numerous industries already have adopted the, "deliver a fully capable product with all the features built-in)(software) and pay later to have them activated". Medical products by and large this model is becoming the standard. I bought my laptop with Office 365 installed. I naively thought I owned it. Until Microsoft sent me an annual bill to to pay so the feature remains active. Companies are looking to maximize revenue and create new revenue streams. BMW cars is now starting to charge a monthly subscription for its heated seats. This is just the beginning,,,,,,,
Or you know just dont give them your money.
I imagine it will be, and that companies implementing this practice know that they have a small window to scalp as much as they can from the rubes willing to pay for it.
@@rubenotero7100 In the case of Office 365 now being an annual subscription fee what choice do I have? The mountain of Word and Excel files that contain enormous amounts of "my material" that I can no longer open or access is like being held hostage for ransom.
@@sunrisejak2709 It starts with a P
Appreciate the honesty!!
Basic lack of understanding of economics here. ZERO doesn't force you to purchase the big battery or hot grips. By making one model, they save everyone money. You enable just the options you want. What is the difference between going to the dealer and installing hot grips or the factory "enabling" them? You still get the option when and if you want it. This video is plainly spelling out it just wants all options for free. If you want GPS, head down to your dealer and they will replace your dashboard with a new one with faster CPU, GPS, and maps. What's the cost of that. I vote for enabling it.
BMW, Detroit3, and other major auto manufacturers are doing product research to see if people are willing to pay subscriptions for features on their cars. Live in a cold climate? $12 per month for heated seats. Because profit margins are so low on the cars themselves, they would make more money on subscription services than selling cars. Of course, I'd like horrible pain inflicted upon those who consider subscriptions on hardware they already bought a good thing.
If all features are built into every vehicle and people just pay to unlock them, it reduces engineering and manufacturing costs a.k.a. increases profit margins drastically. There's just one wiring harness, just one infotainment system, just one everything. But people are so gullible to believe this is 'innovative' while it's just a rip off. Your example of the heated seats reminded me of a situation we had with my wife's car. She bought a used car that had heated seats which probably had never been used in 10 years. We tried them and almost burned down the damn car. Now if you buy a 10year old car and unlock the heated seats...you see where I'm going.
It's basically just the evolution of oem service shops that rip people with insane prices and "this checkup/fix can only be done at authorized oem dealer" bullshittery. You don't think vehicles could be made to run relatively maintenance free if they actually wanted to? Owning a vehicle was already a subscription model, now it is just put into plain writing lol. Scammers' paradise.
@@Real_MisterSir Correct. Modern drivetrains suffer so little wear, they can survive very long with little maintenance. Cars mostly break down because of electrical/software issues these days. Mostly built in failure points.
@@Perry_dAccard I hope they start doing that in the automotive world, actually, because it will take the aftermarket approximately ten minutes to figure out how to unlock those features for a tenth the cost.
Just look at how long it took the performance aftermarket to crack the supposedly uncrackable OBDII ECMs when they came out. If you didn't know, it was done before they hit the market.
@@immikeurnot That would mean war between aftermarket car hackers and OEM programmers trying to lock everybody out. Shit takes the fun out of everyting. I prefer the greasy fingers approach.
This is really nice. Few things you should know, if you already don't:
1. Ducati comes with heated grips installed, but you've to pay to unlock them. I believe they also run the navigation "unlock" scam on their desertx model.
2. Ktm already runs this scam with their "tech pack" riding modes unlock BS. Even bmw did this with the s1000rr for the pro modes.
3. Triumph runs the throttle map scam with the street triple r & rs where its the same engine but with a severely limited throttle map for the R model. You can cure it with a flash. The tiger 850 is also the tiger 900 engine with a limited throttle map to differentiate the models. Also unlockable with a flash. Triumph would run this scam with their first gen 765 S model as well.
They may not be as bad as zero's approach, but it's been around.
The s1000rr is locked into you get your first cause they don't want people to die not because they don't want you to have the full use of power
@@agawdsparadise3782 no this is false.
KTM also does this with the quickshifter and cruise control. Hardware is already on the bike. For $2-300 they hook it up to the OEM scan tool and turn them on.
@@jpow4893 yup... I was about to pull the plug on an 890 Adventure a couple of years ago. I asked about the quick shifter and cruise and my dealer said I would have to pay extra... I bought an F850GS Adventure instead.
@@agawdsparadise3782 Oh really now ? Somehow though if you pay them more money, all of a sudden they'll be okay with people dying ? LOL
Hey radical pubes, just wanted to say I’m sketched about buying my first bike but your videos are very informative. Mostly watching your noob videos but your mannerisms and terminology make my chuckle and I appreciate the content. Stay safe!
Amazing explanation. To the point
One really big issue you didn't touch on is right to repair with these bikes.
Typically, an induction motor is "dumb", it doesn't need any smart electronics beyond say a motor controller, which really just determines how much power to send to the motor.
Zero motorcycles puts a chip in their motors that prevents you from basically servicing it yourself, or at a third party mechanic. If the motor breaks, you can't fix it, you need Zero to. And the same is true for the battery bank. Imagine if you had to take your motorcycle or car to the dealer for spark plugs and had to use OEM spark plugs and any other brand would brick your entire bike/car.
Looks like the end of zero is near
they do not repair....they replace them
That is for safety reasons. Don’t need someone who watches a TH-cam video poking around a high voltage system that can easily kill you. Plus they replace motors or anything that goes bad and it gets sent off and repaired by trained technicians and resold as rebuilt.
@@UR5TEPDAD1 motor controllers and battery management units are pretty standard equipment, and there is no reason for their to be any such system on the actual motor unit itself. these are, in every other application, *dumb*, they have no circuitry. its just a spinning set of coils around a magnet. AC go in, spinny go out.
imagine being told you can't change your chain, brake pads, spark plugs, fuel injectors, (or the battery of a normal bike or car. those have enough amps to kill your soul) or do any actual service yourself, or even take it to a mechanic that isn't the dealer because of "safety". This also screws over anyone who doesn't live close to a zero dealer or lacks a truck/trailer to drop one off.
@@UR5TEPDAD1 and because of a bad bearing or faulty small chip on the outside of the motor casing you have to pay for a whole motor. Safety? rather profit
I don't normally feel the need to comment on videos on TH-cam, but you've successfully talked me out of getting a Zero. I really wanted an electric bike, but I had no idea Zero was pulling this crap.
you got scammed here bro zero bikes are great
Just buy a regular bike
EW ELECTRIC BIKES NO NO NO
@@emanueldelacruz1101 No support other competing legit Electric Bike markers soo sketchy ones like this lose business.
Thanks for the update I was really looking forward to going eco to drive back and forth from work but I didn't realize the cons of it. This really helped
Okay so as an early adopter of a 2016 FXS I do have some real world input to add to this discussion. The 2016 model has no fancy operating system with feature unlocks or any of that. It's just buy the bike, charge it and ride it. Simple stuff.
1. Poor range?? Yes, absolutely. The infrastructure is great for cars, but also, lacking for bikes.
2. You can get a car-style charging upgrade for the more expensive models, but that costs extra. Why isn't it standard, and why does it cost over a grand?
3. In my particular usage case, I don't use the bike for long trips. I use it for commuting, which means all the charging is done at home. All the trips I do make with it are well within its operating range. With this point in mind, and at a cost of £0.02 a mile, wether or not this bike makes any sense depends ENTIRELY on your annual mileage. My annual mileage is less than 10k, meaning that in the UK, I save about £1,000 a year in 'fuel costs'. It would take me very long time to save the price difference given how expensive electric bikes are up-front. However someone who commutes more miles than me could possibly realise savings within a couple years.
4. Other savings come from the minimum mainenance these things require. A lot of you are probably thinking the battery is gonna get shot and need replacing, thereby undoing any savings, but if we go by what we know about EVs from real world usage, this is generally not an issue -- the warranty is 5 years I believe, so less than that of car batteries, and these batteries are actually pretty damn reliable. But who knows, my mileage isn't that high.
5. The bike is pretty fun for me, I don't need to change gears to enjoy riding. There's something to be said for the torque, responsiveness, and the quiet actually creates a... different kind of riding experience. It feels weirdly like flying, it's very smooth. Without engine vibrations you feel every bit and bump in the tarmac in a lot more detail.
6. I have had an overall negative experience with Zero's aftersales. I had an issue where a dealership fucked up a firmware update (my bike was before the OTA models so they had to do it in-workshop) and I had to chase and chase and chase their support to get the issue fixed. The newer firmware slowed the bike down and they plugged it into their engineer's laptop and insisted it was showing it as healthy and fine. Two months later I took it back to them again and THIS TIME they told me I was running really REALLY old firmware and i'd somehow been rolled BACK to earlier firmware by the dealership who I went to for the update?!
7. I'm not against electric motorbikes as a thing, but I would rather go with a BMW or something if there's a compelling offering and a fair price. The build quality is OKAY but for the price you would expect more. The pillon seat feels really dodgy (it bends down a lot when sat on), the shock spring seems to attract rust like nobody's business no matter how much I try to treat it. I had it conk out at 70 mph once, and it didn't just start rolling to a halt, it regen braked, luckily I had a shoulder to pull onto. Keyed it off and on and never had the issue again, but I believe it occurred because I used their smartphone app to set the Custom Mode's torque to maximum, which kicked in a failsafe when I opened the throttle wide. Someone then suggested I set to 98% max in the app. And whatever possessed them to use a car's side light bulb as a headlight for the FXS, IDK. You only get LED on the really high end models which is baffling.
You missed another big question. IF you pay to unlock these "features" & sell it second hand down the line, does the new owner get to keep the unlocked features or do they have to buy them again? 🤔
Maybe the unlocked features are conected to your app account. So they can charge you a seceond time in case of new "ownership".
No they don't. I think they use an account system. If you open the app and put in your details + the vehicle stuff, I think you would still need to pay to use those features.
Can you imagine the awkward conversations between the original owner selling and the guy who wants to buy it used?
"So it has heated grips right?".
- "Well, yes and no. Actually yes, the bike has them and they work fine".
"So why say yes and no?"
"They stop working after it changes owner"
"What kind of witchcraft is that? I'm not into this voodoo shit. Lemme go and buy a GSX-S1000"
or if they brick your sht. Either cause they are ass hats or they went out of business. Pick one. Im no fan of this.
What we can say with confidence is that the new owner will... for reasons... pay sales tax... on a bike that you already paid sales tax for... I think uncle sam was up on their A-game when they figured this one out...
"I own it now so I can sell it as I see fit right?"
"Nope... the person buying it from you will have to pay tax on that too."
"Oh... OK I guess that makes sense to cover title transfer and re-registering..."
"oh no... we'll still charge for that too."
"well then what is the re-taxes for?"
"just because..."
taxing secondary sales of something... the original microtransaction... /sigh
this is literally getting into the "you'll own nothing and be happy" territory
Self driving electric vehicles. That will take you exactly where you need to be......
Great video. Hope some of the big companies can enter the electric market with more honest models.
Between poor range and lack of infrastructure supporting them, Electric Motorcycles didn't need more reasons to be considered a bad purchase, as those issues could be resolved in time. But an E-bike that pulls macrotransaction lootbox bullshit that gamers already find egregious JUST to unlock the full capability of the equipment pre mounted on the bike?!?! I can't think of an idea that would kill them off faster.
It's like they wanted to go bankrupt, literally self crippling acts of idiocy
If the specs were even nearly accurate, I'd love one. The fuel I'd save would pay for the bike in a few years. Perfect for a daily 200km round commute and charging overnight on a stand alone solar system. The ongoing pay to play bullshit is pretty egregious.
@@Nick-ih9jwSolar Charging Works at night ??
@@QuestionMarkKick360 maybe someone will invent batteries one day 😵💫
@@Nick-ih9jw gonna add my thoughs as an early adopter in reply to Prich if you're interested
Been watching YN for quite some time now, and I have to say, this is probably the slickest production quality I've yet seen; kudos to you guys! Cheers for all your great content over the years - here's to 2M subs.
Great video guys :)
I had an FXS and there really wasn't anything to upgrade. I bought the high speed charger but I never even took it out of the box. I just plugged it in to a 15 amp outlet overnight and never had any problems. I never took it more than 100 miles on the freeway, mainly because it wouldn't go any farther than that. Around town it would go more than 300 miles before I got "range anxiety". I loved it. I miss it. I had a pinched nerve in my neck and had trouble keeping an eye on the cars around me so I sold it because I know the lithium Ion batteries only last 5-7 years. I will probably get another one later. I miss it. I think I said that already. LOL.
Thanks for calling this out. The only thing worse would be a pay-per-year licencing model for features, or even to turn the key. Been happening in other sectors for years.
welcome to capitalism
@@zuludeltanovember its capitalism now because you can choose not to buy the product. It won't be capitalism when the choice of ICE motorcycles is taken away from us.
I agree 100%! I wouldnt have one the things! Let alone buy one!!
When you pay per year, aren't you, renting?
BMW is pulling the same crap for their cars. While BMW cars have been on my "never even consider" list for forever, this really makes me question whether to put their motorcycles on the list too :/
Honestly if this becomes even more prominent across cars and bikes I can see an underground market of people cracking the vehicles to get the features for cheaper.
You nailed it. The world is becoming more and more dystopian.
this is already a thing people do on teslas
This is also what farmers are doing on their JD tractors. It's insane.
@@famousj6 oh yea I heard about the tractors
Or a big market for thirdparty ecus
Thanks for making this video. I almost bought one of these until they started talking about these options.
Great video! It's the truth!
BOYCOTT ANTI-Repairable Apple wannabe's "Zero Motorcycles". They go against a century of motorcycle culture in every way.
Boycotts almost never work. Government legislation is what is needed to solve right to repair related issues.
I'm just dipping my toes in moto culture with my first bike (ninja 650) and I worried it will somehow all be yanked away from me. Fuq zero
Well no one wants your ninja so it's k
people love and worship Elon and Tesla and Tesla has had this bissness modle for years they even brick peoples cars if they detect modifications
@@ProfessionalTrenchDigger word. Everything I enjoy in life is constantly under attack. Bikes, guns, cigars, and poker. The government is pushing regulations and “new green deals”. People need to drop the liberal ideologies and wake up.
Here in Dubai there is a well known shop that unlocks all of these features for approximately 200 dollars but it voids the warranty of everything on the bike since they programmed the "ECU" memory in a way that it stores how many times its been removed or tampered with and there is no way around it EVEN when there is no electricity or power to it unless you leave it off for 257 days then you can tamper with it freely according to the guy who owns the shop.
I was thinking about this…
Some things like quick charge & increased power both increase the chance of early failure. It is limited for warranty reasons, because increasing wattage increases the chance of failure. That increases the chance of premature failure, and increases the chance that they'll be paying for it, so it's like they're selling you a lottery ticket. Lowering the limits by software lowers their calculated costs, which lowers the cost to you for a basic version.
The heated grips option is stupid, but the power related upgrade expenses make sense.
See, I thought that too, but what seems weird is there's a flat rate for a bunch of very different unlocks. If it were pegged to potential cost incurred then surely those costs would be different? Just reeks of shareholder's interest.
your the greatest, thank you for sharing.
OK I get it. It's easier and quicker to manufacture all the bikes all the same with all the parts. I also get that with electric vehicles dealers and manufacturers are going to lose out big time on future costs with servicing, no filters, oil, plugs etc. But these unlocking costs on an already expensive bike take the piss.
I have never seen anyone explain the reasons electric vehicle manufacturing can't be related directly to legacy ICE vehicle manufacturing so concisely. Very nicely done
There's no explanation. If Nissan can do it on a Leaf anyone can. Kawasaki also planned for full electric ninja in 2030.
They won’t lose out - when the battery reaches its end of life no one will be dumb enough to replace them - thus, new cars that are more expensive and far less time and cost efficient are sold more often.
@@JA-zh5xi tbf changing batteries is a huge plus on these eletrics, most of them can take around 3000 cycles, you complete one when you go from 100% to 0% battery and you recharge full, most people will take around 4 years to change it and they are fairly expensive but still cheaper than a new combustion bike, you can also change defective parts if you need to, by the end if you take care of your bike if should work until you are tired of it
@@victoriazero8869 Nissan makes regular cars as well the Leaf is a very small number to them.Last year out of 3.88 million only 165k world wide sales was the leaf. Zero has nothing else to fall back on since electric is all they got.
Immediately I think of people hacking into the bike to unlock the features by themselves, I remember seeing that piracy ad where it says "you wouldn't download a car" well now I can download a motorcycle!
Beat me to it was just thinking How long before some jailbreaks one to unlock the features 😂
people already hack teslas to unlock features but tesla bricks your car making it undrivable if they find out
Clear and excellent
If you have the choice of unlocking more range or faster charging, my advice would be: don't. Slower charging and using slightly less of the range is better for the battery. The battery is the most expensive part, so you don't wanna hurt it.
Is it just me, but it is definitely getting harder and harder to find trustworthy companies nowadays, they all try to pull some kind of gimmick. Currently having so many issues with online subscription cancellation where they continue the monthly auto-billing, similar to email subscription where you can't unsubscribe from their email list and need to threaten with legal action in order to get removed is getting beyond ridiculous.
It's like that company who sells airbag vests that cost mid 3 figures and doesn't work unless you pay a monthly subscription.
The only difference is said motorcycle vest offers the ability to purchase the software for no subscription, making the whole thing cost competitive with other manufacturers. Everyone forgets the subscription is optional and you can have a fully functioning, subscription-less airbag vest if you want.
Thanks a lot for the video. Really nice review. Dont know what to think about zero tho
😲Wow! What a RIIIPPP!!! 👍Thanks guys!
I appreciate you guys going over all this. It's something that bothered me when I saw their Cypher store but it's good to see someone going over all the details and explaining it in an easy to understand way for the average consumer who may not have known about it. I enjoyed the Zero SR/S on the demo ride I did but this kind of thing would shy me away from getting one
I have a 42 year old oil spitting musclebike. It's particularly good at anything, but it won't ever tell me to update or buy shit trough an app before I can ride it.
0 tech, best tech.
I agree 100%! I ride a 2003 YZF600R moded and I could not be happier.
agree, but i like abs fuel injection cruise control etc as long as i don't have to pay a monthly fee for it
@@palamidagheo4520 Great point! Can you imagine for some reason your monthly ABS subscription does not get paid, you are unaware, and are involved in a accident? Or stranded because your 20% longer battery was unpaid that month?
i love the ending seconds of these videos
Great video guys, also I love the wiggle stick shirt btw (it’s always cool to see fellow Strat players 😎👍).
Genuinely been thinking of getting a zero as a beginner bike as ive heard good things from those who've started on one but the micro transaction esc push for unlocking features here is definitely something i didn't even think of as i never thought any company would stoop that low. None the less id still like to get an electric bike for a beginner bike this just has me reconsidering how to go about choosing the right one for me. Dropping damn near 15k on one and not having the full potential at my fingertips yet definitely doesn't sit right with me. THANKS FOR THE INFORMATIVE VIDEO!
An electric bike as a beginner? Especcialy a cracked out one? Talk about a hilariously bad decision you dodged.
It’s an electric bike, so there’s not much potential to begin with. You’ll barely notice the difference.
Want a beginner motorcycle yammie has plenty of great selections want to be environment over it then get a used one. All combustion engine none of that SLIMEY EV bull.
EV bike has all the bad things, you don't want on your first bike.
I agree with the rest of the comments. A zero for a first bike is a bad choice. It is too expensive. For your first bike, the best is to get one that is cheap. You are more likely to drop it or get into a small accident, so it is best to minimize the potential losses. You can also be more of a hooligan without feeling so bad for the bike when you know you can afford another one if you break it.
Also, you will feel more comfortable trying doing maintenance and repairs on a cheap bike. That way, you get the experience needed to really take care of your future bike. Experience you will not get on an electric bike, because it has no maintenance at all.
I've been tentatively researching to buy an electric bike. The moment I heard about the locked battery, they PERMINENTLY removed themselves from consideration.
It literally only applies to the newest 2022 bikes, all zeroes prior don't have this, AND, it isn't even live or working yet. The Cypher store launches in September and literally everything covered is subject to change still. The 15.6 battery is stil bigger than the prior 14.4 regardless if it's unlocked or not. This is much ado about nothing.
@@protonus Doesn't matter. Buy the company not the product.
@@protonus bull shit, the mere fact that they are considering the dlc features in the first place means the company is beneath notice and deserves to die. This is scumbag behavior and should be punished as such.
Energica exists.
ngl that speed3 is def one of the cleanest ive ever seen.... as a 3 owner myself im lovin it brother
Great video thanks for sharing
I've been doing I.T. for about 20 years now. You see this in software all the time and it doesn't seem nearly so offensive in that context. Note, this is in a professional setting, not with video games.
I have observed over the years that people, when unlocking features of software that they already have, seem to appreciate how easy it goes. They like how instant and seamless it is. They know they paid less and got less. Then they can pay a little bit more and get the rest without buying the entire thing all over again. They LOVE it.
This is the laziness and uncritical-ness (if thats a word) that has been sinking the western world for the past 40 years.
"They" are going to try to do this with everything.......and I mean EVERYTHING going into the future. Fight this on all fronts with all your might. It is evil. And it is everywhere.
although... outside of both professional software AND games, "hackers" have taken control of PCs and smartphones for decades now. Installing linux, LineageOS or other alternative OSes, and finding free software can turn old, outdated PCs into workstations is fun.
This has been part of the great satisfaction of using linux and Open Source for me since the late 90s, for that matter, hacking Xbox and Playstations, too! As long as I had "e-motorcycle hacker" friends, or could get these extras without paying extra, by looking up tweaks on a website...
I admit, I get a little rush from feeling a little superior. Actually I'm planning on tweaking my little e-bike. If others want to remain tech ignorant and intellectually lazy, it's not really my problem. 😝
@@squirlmy oh no doubt. say what I want, if I had a zero e bike I would hack every feature I could for sure!
agreed but at least in the case of software you've already committed to paying for the right to use it, you never actually own anything physically. This is just paying to unlock things you already own and hold in your hands.
hardware version of this sounds terrible for me due to all the performance degradation and physical resources that are wasted for people not unlocking the "additional features".
I'm glad you disclosed the bike was on loan from a channel partner, and they're in a round about an owner of Zero motorcycles, but holy crap how can he watch this video and think "yep, my company is selling a good product that'll make lots of money"?
He’s thinking... we will get enough for me to be rich!
They are probably targeting a specific clientele. Even so though, it's a terrible business model and I hope it fails because this type of scammery(?) shouldn't be allowed ANYWHERE.
Just becuse you are on the board of a company doesn't mean that each individual agrees with every action said company takes
@@bryant2672
Sadly, it seems to work just fine for Tesla.
@@ldorman true, but the average person cant afford the Tesla at the moment.
I'm definitely getting one of these bad boys!
Side note: BMW is also doing this with their new cars. Heated seats, dual-zone AC, HP increase and a whole bunch of features are now behind a pay wall. All this to say, it's not only happening in the gaming and motorcycle world, but pretty much everywhere now... Saaaad
Damn, I was seriously thinking of adding an electric bike to my garage but these are all good points. Maybe I’ll wait for some other bike manufacturers to create more competition in the market to keep the others in check. I’m anxious to see how the new Triumph electric turns out in production.
Dude my zero is now officially a lemon
Was looking into these bikes and was seriously considering getting one. I have 110% changed my mind regardless if they dissolve the “pay to unlock” concept. Just because they had the thought that they could do that makes me a customer to anyone else but them for life. I’ll be sharing this information to anyone I know looking for a new electric bike.
Car companies do it too. Hope you don't own a Toyota, VW, or BMW. BMW wants to charge you MONTHLY for heated seats. Listen man there is no point in being a superhero here. You'd be getting upcharged like crazy for the features if you wanted them anyhow. Having the heated grips dormant in there is just a production thing.
i have 3 and they are great but will not be buying any more I agree pay to unlock is bs
Keep it!!!!
Spent a few hours on an street version zero a friend of mine bought. Out of the hole torque was incredible. After a few minutes of killer take offs, I realized the bike just lacked a soul. No sound, no gear selection, no clutch, just absolutely not for me.
I understand and respect what you are saying. People use to say the same thing about automatic transmissions. Now it is incredibly difficult to find a manual.
@@easternyellowjacket276 I still drive manuals by the way! 👍
@@PSBEadventures Yep. But the vast majority of vehicles are now only automatic. Furthermore, most drivers under the age of 30 do not know how to drive a standard. It's amazing and kind of sad. But it is what it is.
Actually you need to buy 2 of these so you can charge one while you ride the other during your session at the track
Pretty sure you don't buy a Zero to go on the track. I'd be curious to see Kawasaki is planning a hybrid motorcycle. I think that would be a better option. Super fuel efficient. And the best of both worlds.
you can battery swap or fast charge.
@@just_one_opinion How much do you have to pay to unlock fast charge
As a Zero S owner I fully concur with EVERYTHING in this video.
You'll own nothing and you'll like it.
I did a demo day ride on a Zero SR/S about a month ago. Every complaint/concern you have about Zero's business model is spot-on, as are your complaints about range/recharge issues. As consumers, we cannot allow companies to do this "pay to unlock features your product already has" crap....that path leads to a really nasty place. I'm going to give Zero a pass on the high starting price on their products, as the same can be said for every electric motorcycle manufacturer. Eearly adoption = no economies of scale yet = really expensive. ABS used to cost a fortune on new cars once upon a time as well. However, I do have to give Zero a couple things: IMHO: looks great, handles great, and mid-range acceleration (20-70MPH) is insane.
Not sure about other manufacturers but KTM has been playing this game with the electronic features on their bikes for a while now ... the original 790 Duke being the exception as that came with everything unlocked as stock. Buy an 890 or 890R or even a Super Duke R and you'll be looking at paying extra to unlock things like the quickshifter, track mode, launch control, TC adjustment etc etc ... things that are already physically on the bike, just locked behind a paywall 😐
not as bad as zero. you pay once and you get those features for ever . ktm bikes give you full power and full range , unlike zero which could need every mileage argument they could get to sell e bikes but instead they offer this bullshit where you can add mileage and power for a short while . it would be the same as ktm if you would pay once and get more power and range forever
@@DrKampfpudding oh for sure Zero are taking it to a whole new level ... but I was just pointing out that, in the motorcycle world, locking away features behind paywalls is not something exclusively done by Zero, others do it too and have done for some time now. It's a dirty tactic to get the customer to part with more cash .. I wish they'd all just stop
Yes and even a stock $12k bike then needs all kinds of part upgrades after market just to make it ridable. No thanks.
Not exactly because they install componentes in the bike the Zero already have it
@@angelcardona1357 Not the electronics packages and quickshifter ... they come on the bike when you buy it .. but you have to pay extra for KTM to digitally unlock them in the ECU. They literally just plug the bike into their diagnostic tablet, tick a few check boxes on screen and it's job done ... the 890 Duke 'tech pack' costs over £600 and takes 2 minutes for KTM to unlock ....
8:50 lol wasn't expecting that
Why the hell would people pay anything close to half the price of what they're asking for when they've essentially attached an iPad with a huge battery to 2 wheels and not even 4?
Man, humans suck.
But thank you for being honest about this. I have really been watching and well saving to try and get an electric bike. I really had my eyes set to Zero. But I am rethinking it all now. Thank you for the brutal honesty.
Greedy humans
Eventually, either there will be an e-motorcycle company with integrity, or more likely, internal-combustion bikes will start doing this too. I know BMW is switching to this business model for cars, following Tesla. Someone here mentioned Harley. For now it's luxury brands, and you'd be crazy to buy from them. I'm pro EV, but this is nuts. Better to look for more efficient/smaller displacement IC bikes instead for the time being. Or get a pedal e-bike to use for your commute and use your IC bike less often.
Waiting to see if an aftermarket ecu company comes up with a way to jailbreak them like smart phones and not just give you everything that Zero locks but more shit that may be doable with clever programming.
Zero would probably legally pursuit those companies, if that happens.
@@danrib4048 cant stop a nerd on reddit
@@danrib4048 Not if they are abroad.
@@danrib4048 They will, and once real manufacturers get into the game, expect jailbreaking to become illegal a la diesel truck deletes.
BMW announced a similiar practice for their cars recently. Although they market it as buy the option you are financially comfortable with at the start, pay for upgrades later. You can still buy a fully specced car and have everything out of the box or pay a monthly subscription fee for additional features like active cruise control or auto(sensors turning them on and off when needed) highbeams
I predict if customer rage doesn't take its toll on Zero, aftermarket will find a way to hack this.
Wow it sounds like EA made a bike
That's just ridiculous, i'd call it anti-consumer. If those things were like options you could choose, just like trim level it would make some sense..
I love my CBR500R, I tour all over the region on it and will be touring the nation this fall. It’s a great bike.
Doing a high pitched voice and waving your hands doesn't make talking about battery capacity any more nerdy than talking about engine displacement. There's nothing wrong with being a nerd about something, just embrace it.
The “owners” are simply buying a license to USE those extra features and they really don’t “own” those new features.
You literally PAID for electric grips - so bring a small 12V battery and a switch and splice it in.
And when you don't own features that are already built into the bike - do you really own the bike?
I'll never buy one of these. Gonna stick to my 1000 bucks GS500E, and eventually buying a used travel bike for longer road trips.
Man! I'm glad i found this video! No Zero motorcycles for me! It's already an abusive practice in the videogame industry, imagine putting down a whole year of paychecks on a brand of motorcycles that uses the same money extortion practices (as the videogame industry) when we already bought the bike at full-price?
- F#&@ NO! F#&@ Zero motorcycles, and any other brand that might use these tactics.
Thanks for bleeping out the language so my young ones can watch your videos - thanks guys!
BMW (cars) are adopting this model, unlock heated seats during winter months, enhanced HiFi sound, working windscreen wipers...
If you buy a Tesla and buy one of those “upgrades”, it only belongs to you. If you sell it, Tesla locks the upgrade and the new owner will have to pay Tesla for their right to use use that feature that was already paid for. I wonder if Zero has the same sort of lock out feature too.
No, they don't. I asked Zero themselves. Also, NONE of this exists yet. It only applies to the model year 2022 bikes, and it doesn't even launch until September currently planned - it might not even happen at all, and the pricing and specs may be entirely different than what's shown.
No. The Tesla upgrades stay with the car.
@@protonus Hi Zero! :D
That about them being able to just cut the bike's power from an orbital strike update is such a good point that I haven't even considered. Obviously they won't, not to the average rider, but the fact that they could is so sus to me
THEY don't have to.
At the 2015 Philadelphia auto show, Jeep unveiled their new Grand Cherokee. A 14 yr old boy in the audience took control of it using 20 dollars worth of radio shack equipment.
I’ve been saying the same thing about Tesla and the software updates they charge a lot of money for. To me it’s crazy that they charge so much money for stuff on the bike or car. My friend had to spend $10,000 or $12,000 for a Tesla upload that added a new mode and the driverless feature was out of beta. That’s insane to me to charge so much.
I was completely sold on these but the dealer didn't tell me about all of this. I was about to pull the trigger and get one, but this has me thinking I need to look into other options. I'm definitely not down with those type of questionable business practices.
Having owned an electric bike exclusively for racing, it’s interesting to see where the market is going. I might go electric if I lived in a large city, but not here in New Mexico…
That's incredibly interesting, what made you decide to get an Electric Bike for racing? And how has it been?
Drive from Tramway \Central to Rio Rancho - there goes all your charge.
NM has large distances.
@@liamlyda2116 alta made very good electric dirt bikes before being fucked over if they where still around zero wouldn't have pulled this pay for features crap
@@spiritofpostpunk7207 Interesting
I think all of this pricing just tells me that these manufacturers thought there would be a tax credit when the bikes became available. Unfortunately that tax credit expired/never transpired and we are stuck with unbelievably high prices. Which beg the question of whether a tax credit is good for the consumer or a manufacturer?
Just look at Tesla. The only reason that company has ever been profitable was tax credits... Meanwhile they are gathering something like 10 gigs an hour of data from every one of their vehicles, and Musk is patiently waiting for Congress to allow insurance companies to use telemetrics against customers so that he can start selling that data.
A zero motorcycle describes perfectly how much I think that I need one.
This was good-confirms my suspicions.