I thought this immediately. however, that's the present day. it's not clear to me that the UK would've been as cloudy in the past, although it's possible.
Fun fact: if you physically want to go to Hell, there's a small town in Norway, just north of Trondheim, called "Hell". I've been to Hell and back many times. I toke the highway to Hell, and had a Hell of a time. True story.
We have a town called "Hell" here in the state of Michigan in the US. Even more funny is that on the far north side of the state, we have a town called "Paradise" as well.
Same with Spanish "Cielo" even. Although I seem to recall hearing some english poetry using Heavens as just skies? Not sure though, I am not a native speaker and I haven't finished the video
Hi Jackson and Luke. You two are excellent together there. Interesting take on sky, clouds and ''ský'' in modern Icelandic. Einar Kristjánsson Reykjavík
8:19 "Not that the sky is sharp, but the root is actually originally rock or something like that [...]" - an alternate explanation instead of cosmology is that Scandinavia (like the Rockies) is famously made up of pointy rocks into the sky (except Denmark, that still somehow manages to have a Himmelbjerg).
Using the word "firmament" in this discussion reminded me of dharma in Sanskrit being related to the Greek thronos and Latin firmus, all from PIE *dher-, to hold/support.
I am no theologian (and not particularly religious), but I think the biblical justification for hell as a fiery place comes from the preaching of John the Baptist in Matthew (chapter 3). He says, "He will... gather his wheat into his barn, but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire." Someone wiser than me will be needed to explain why that doesn't just mean total destruction.
I understand the consept of hell better now that I have listened to this. Being held/kept away from the light. Being in the dark underground. Thank you.
Such a fascinating discussion! As a Christian I've had a recent interest in the evolution of these terms, especially given their outsized influence on modern Christian thought, despite the bulk of that thought being (as you rightly point out) non-biblically based. Of course, there has been a growing movement of contemporary Bible scholars such as N.T. Wright who have thankfully pushed back on that, but it's still intriguing to study how we got here. It's also worth noting that the understanding of heaven as an afterlife destination is not native to the Bible's text. The Hebrew and Greek terms translated as heaven both refer also to the sky, and exclusively in the plural in the original languages. However, it was considered common knowledge in ancient Semitic cosmology that spiritual beings (of all types) resided in the skies, as opposed to humans who occupy the land, and the bodies of water which represented primordial chaos. But the closest thing to an afterlife presented in the Bible is Sheol (the OT place of the dead), Hades (the NT place of the dead) and Abraham's Bosom (the place of the righteous dead). The NT also introduces the mysterious term of believers being "with Christ" after death and before their bodily resurrection. But ultimately, despite what many of us grew up hearing in church, the orthodox Christian belief of our eternal destination is not a disembodied heaven, but rather an embodied life in a renewed and perfect creation in which heaven and earth are one.
An interesting point about 'sky' going from meaning cloud in old norse to meaning 'sky' in english is that the same thing has happened in swedish. I was honestly surprised when i learned sky usually means cloud in the other scandinavian languages, since it just means 'sky' in both swedish and english. I'm sure some dialects of swedish still use it to mean cloud, but that is extremely rare in mine.
@@Sasseverk i have heard that expression once or twice, and have a vague notion that i maybe heard it from relatives from Västergötland, though i may well be wrong. I don't think i've heard it used by someone from my region (Hälsingland), though.
I feel "himmel" is the most common word in Swedish, both for the physical and the religious one. "Sky" feels a bit archaic. But the adjective "skyigt" is more common, meaning cloudy.
I think it's interesting that in continental Saxon both forms "Himmel" and "Heven" are used. To my knowledge they are interchangeable and mean both heaven and sky. In my dialect of low saxon Himmel/Hemel is the usual word, but I've heard Heven. Even in some of the earliest Old Saxon writing you can find both, like "in Himinam" (in heaven) but "Hevanriki" (heavenly kingdom)
Himmel can have a religious connotation in German. Himmel can be used both for Heaven and Sky in German.... "Himmelreich" for example is even more specifically used in the religious context
I checked Luke’s channel yesterday! I’ve been looking for a good motivation for the standard etymology for Old Norse ‘ergi’ cos it doesn’t make a whole lot of sense to me. Yes, the idea that the PIE root for copulation comes to be associated with shame and wickedness by the time Christianity enters, and by extension becomes a slur for pre-Christian religious professionals makes a lot of sense. What I haven’t found in the (non-academic) sources available to me is a very sound reason why ‘ergi’ cannot be related to the PIE ‘bright light’ word. Not a linguist so I don’t have all the details re Germanic sound shifts straight, but none of the online etymological dictionaries I’ve found explains this. Does anyone here know if Jackson or Luke (or someone else) has explained this somewhere that I’ve missed?
@@e.m.6536 Thank you! I’ll look into that. Might I be so free as to ask if you’re able to tell me, just briefly, if that discussion demonstrates that a link to PIE *h2erg- is impossible/implausible due to some sound shift or other solid rule(s)?
@@rdklkje13if it's just g and not ɡʰ, then it should have changed into k by Grimm's law (there are exceptions to the Grimm's law explained by Verner's law, but they don't concern the g > k case)
the shy theory is same for swedish also, sky, skugga (shadow) and skygg. but today skygg means more like elusive rather than shy which would be blyg, but im guessing its the same meaning originally. also himmel is usually used today for sky, but sky works as well. skyfall means downpour of rain. but interestingly only himmel or himlen is used double to describe heaven, sky is just sky.
That's a coincidence: From Wiktionary: 1. sky 'shy': Possibly from Middle Low German schūwe, schū, from Proto-West Germanic *skeuh. Compare English shy and German scheu. 2. sky 'cloud': From Old Danish sky, from Old Norse ský, from Proto-Germanic *skiwją (“cloud, cloud cover”), from Proto-Indo-European *(s)kewH- (“to cover, conceal”). Tho those two words are possibly cognates
I thought the idea for Christian Hell came from Tartarus (which is fire and brimstone), a place in Hades where people are punished. Just like we have Niflhel in Hel for oath breakers and murderers.
Hæven = the garden, in Danish. Eden = the Garden. I have always thought of that link being logical because it would be comparative with Valhalla; the place for believers to strive towards. They had to be convinced to change their faith somehow.
A lot of our popular ideas about hell come from Dante, as far as I know. We sometimes call him the first worldbuilder in comparative literature, since he really made up the realm of hell in a way.
To be fair, the doctrine of punishment of the sinners in hell must have existed in early Christianity. Books like the Apocalypse of Peter clearly contain it.
I would imagine that you didn't want to invoke the attention of either Hel or Hades, so it might have been considered a bad idea to speak or write their names.
Heaven heave heap. Up. Skythunder cows and rain bringer clouds, milk rain. Clouds and mountains alpine elven, look like other islands or far away lands. H/k. Hell sheol cell cellar ceiling cist cistern chest held hilt hold. Under ground Fire hell because of lava. Snakes and dragons down same reasons. Down.
On the discussion of the connotation of heaven as a covering (like firmament): "heofon to hrofe" (Caedmon's hymn). On the discussion of Hell as "hole": direct translation of Sheol (*pit")?
IIRC from past researches into middle-eastern mythology, the idea of a judgement and firey punishing afterlife came from the old egyptian polytheism, and it wasn't taken into christianity until like the 10th century, as part of the mediaval "carrot and stick" theology to keep the peasants in line. It's definitely part of the post-nicean philosophy, not part of the original forms of christian cosmologies.
If you lived in the UK you'll know exactly why a word for cloud came to mean sky.
Classic metonymy
I thought this immediately. however, that's the present day. it's not clear to me that the UK would've been as cloudy in the past, although it's possible.
Same.for Germany...
Fun fact: if you physically want to go to Hell, there's a small town in Norway, just north of Trondheim, called "Hell".
I've been to Hell and back many times. I toke the highway to Hell, and had a Hell of a time. True story.
We have a town called "Hell" here in the state of Michigan in the US. Even more funny is that on the far north side of the state, we have a town called "Paradise" as well.
Hi there, the German "Himmel" does have the dual meaning of sky and heaven, depending on context.
It's the same in Swedish.
Same for Norwegian
Came here to say the same thing. It's actually a synonym of both sky and heaven.
Same with Spanish "Cielo" even. Although I seem to recall hearing some english poetry using Heavens as just skies? Not sure though, I am not a native speaker and I haven't finished the video
Hi Jackson and Luke. You two are excellent together there. Interesting take on sky, clouds and ''ský'' in modern Icelandic. Einar Kristjánsson Reykjavík
8:19 "Not that the sky is sharp, but the root is actually originally rock or something like that [...]" - an alternate explanation instead of cosmology is that Scandinavia (like the Rockies) is famously made up of pointy rocks into the sky (except Denmark, that still somehow manages to have a Himmelbjerg).
Using the word "firmament" in this discussion reminded me of dharma in Sanskrit being related to the Greek thronos and Latin firmus, all from PIE *dher-, to hold/support.
does the devil carry a pitchfork because he was doing farmwork in Hell?
I am no theologian (and not particularly religious), but I think the biblical justification for hell as a fiery place comes from the preaching of John the Baptist in Matthew (chapter 3). He says, "He will... gather his wheat into his barn, but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire."
Someone wiser than me will be needed to explain why that doesn't just mean total destruction.
7:06 in arabic , kamiss قميص type of clothes that usually covers all the body
I understand the consept of hell better now that I have listened to this. Being held/kept away from the light. Being in the dark underground. Thank you.
Such a fascinating discussion!
As a Christian I've had a recent interest in the evolution of these terms, especially given their outsized influence on modern Christian thought, despite the bulk of that thought being (as you rightly point out) non-biblically based. Of course, there has been a growing movement of contemporary Bible scholars such as N.T. Wright who have thankfully pushed back on that, but it's still intriguing to study how we got here.
It's also worth noting that the understanding of heaven as an afterlife destination is not native to the Bible's text. The Hebrew and Greek terms translated as heaven both refer also to the sky, and exclusively in the plural in the original languages. However, it was considered common knowledge in ancient Semitic cosmology that spiritual beings (of all types) resided in the skies, as opposed to humans who occupy the land, and the bodies of water which represented primordial chaos. But the closest thing to an afterlife presented in the Bible is Sheol (the OT place of the dead), Hades (the NT place of the dead) and Abraham's Bosom (the place of the righteous dead). The NT also introduces the mysterious term of believers being "with Christ" after death and before their bodily resurrection. But ultimately, despite what many of us grew up hearing in church, the orthodox Christian belief of our eternal destination is not a disembodied heaven, but rather an embodied life in a renewed and perfect creation in which heaven and earth are one.
Was looking for this 👍
"low information protestant" lmao
Heaven is covered by a veil so to speak.
Love this kind of stuff!
An interesting point about 'sky' going from meaning cloud in old norse to meaning 'sky' in english is that the same thing has happened in swedish. I was honestly surprised when i learned sky usually means cloud in the other scandinavian languages, since it just means 'sky' in both swedish and english. I'm sure some dialects of swedish still use it to mean cloud, but that is extremely rare in mine.
"Skyar", the plural, can still mean "clouds" in everyday speech. It's perhaps a bit on the poetic side today, but I have used it myself in that sense.
At least in my dialect (not sure if it's everywhere) you can say "det skyar över" meaning it's getting cloudy
Well you must have heard the words "tunga skyar" wich means heavy clouds or "skyfall" heavy rain or the cognate "skyla (över)" to cover or hide
@@Sasseverk i have heard that expression once or twice, and have a vague notion that i maybe heard it from relatives from Västergötland, though i may well be wrong. I don't think i've heard it used by someone from my region (Hälsingland), though.
very interesting
good one
I feel "himmel" is the most common word in Swedish, both for the physical and the religious one. "Sky" feels a bit archaic. But the adjective "skyigt" is more common, meaning cloudy.
I think it's interesting that in continental Saxon both forms "Himmel" and "Heven" are used. To my knowledge they are interchangeable and mean both heaven and sky. In my dialect of low saxon Himmel/Hemel is the usual word, but I've heard Heven. Even in some of the earliest Old Saxon writing you can find both, like "in Himinam" (in heaven) but "Hevanriki" (heavenly kingdom)
I wonder if the image of a fiery hell came from Phlegethon, the fire-river of Hades?
Himmel can have a religious connotation in German.
Himmel can be used both for Heaven and Sky in German....
"Himmelreich" for example is even more specifically used in the religious context
I checked Luke’s channel yesterday!
I’ve been looking for a good motivation for the standard etymology for Old Norse ‘ergi’ cos it doesn’t make a whole lot of sense to me.
Yes, the idea that the PIE root for copulation comes to be associated with shame and wickedness by the time Christianity enters, and by extension becomes a slur for pre-Christian religious professionals makes a lot of sense.
What I haven’t found in the (non-academic) sources available to me is a very sound reason why ‘ergi’ cannot be related to the PIE ‘bright light’ word.
Not a linguist so I don’t have all the details re Germanic sound shifts straight, but none of the online etymological dictionaries I’ve found explains this.
Does anyone here know if Jackson or Luke (or someone else) has explained this somewhere that I’ve missed?
Neil Price has an extensive discussion of the term in the book "The Viking way. Magic and Mind in Late Iron Age Scandinavia".
@@e.m.6536 Thank you! I’ll look into that.
Might I be so free as to ask if you’re able to tell me, just briefly, if that discussion demonstrates that a link to PIE *h2erg- is impossible/implausible due to some sound shift or other solid rule(s)?
@@rdklkje13if it's just g and not ɡʰ, then it should have changed into k by Grimm's law (there are exceptions to the Grimm's law explained by Verner's law, but they don't concern the g > k case)
the shy theory is same for swedish also, sky, skugga (shadow) and skygg. but today skygg means more like elusive rather than shy which would be blyg, but im guessing its the same meaning originally. also himmel is usually used today for sky, but sky works as well. skyfall means downpour of rain. but interestingly only himmel or himlen is used double to describe heaven, sky is just sky.
In Danish "sky" means either "shy" og "cloud"..
That's a coincidence:
From Wiktionary:
1. sky 'shy':
Possibly from Middle Low German schūwe, schū, from Proto-West Germanic *skeuh. Compare English shy and German scheu.
2. sky 'cloud':
From Old Danish sky, from Old Norse ský, from Proto-Germanic *skiwją (“cloud, cloud cover”), from Proto-Indo-European *(s)kewH- (“to cover, conceal”).
Tho those two words are possibly cognates
ceiling @11:20
To what extent do you think volcanism, especially in the Mediterranean but later in Iceland, influence the "fiery pits of Hell" idea?
So, how does 'hel' in standard high German come to mean 'bright'?
Coincidence most likely. The derivation is most likely from the root that gives "Hall" and the vowel is secondary.
Sky replaced welkin, which similarly used to mean cloud. Compare the idiom "in the clouds" for "up in the air".
I thought the idea for Christian Hell came from Tartarus (which is fire and brimstone), a place in Hades where people are punished. Just like we have Niflhel in Hel for oath breakers and murderers.
Hæven = the garden, in Danish. Eden = the Garden.
I have always thought of that link being logical because it would be comparative with Valhalla; the place for believers to strive towards. They had to be convinced to change their faith somehow.
kool
A lot of our popular ideas about hell come from Dante, as far as I know. We sometimes call him the first worldbuilder in comparative literature, since he really made up the realm of hell in a way.
To be fair, the doctrine of punishment of the sinners in hell must have existed in early Christianity. Books like the Apocalypse of Peter clearly contain it.
🙂
I would imagine that you didn't want to invoke the attention of either Hel or Hades, so it might have been considered a bad idea to speak or write their names.
(Heofon) The English SKY is covered in CLOUDS. (Tyd) And our regular TIDES are a measure of TIME.
Heaven heave heap. Up.
Skythunder cows and rain bringer clouds, milk rain. Clouds and mountains alpine elven, look like other islands or far away lands.
H/k. Hell sheol cell cellar ceiling cist cistern chest held hilt hold. Under ground
Fire hell because of lava. Snakes and dragons down same reasons. Down.
On the discussion of the connotation of heaven as a covering (like firmament): "heofon to hrofe" (Caedmon's hymn).
On the discussion of Hell as "hole": direct translation of Sheol (*pit")?
IIRC from past researches into middle-eastern mythology, the idea of a judgement and firey punishing afterlife came from the old egyptian polytheism, and it wasn't taken into christianity until like the 10th century, as part of the mediaval "carrot and stick" theology to keep the peasants in line. It's definitely part of the post-nicean philosophy, not part of the original forms of christian cosmologies.
No. The Apocalypse of Peter was known in classical antiquity. The very latest date for it is AD150 and it is very much fire and brimstone.
Early bird...